The image you can't submit to journals anymore

The most widely-used image in academic history is no longer accepted in journals. So what happened?
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[@BobbyBroccoli]

The rumours are indeed true, I have a twitter and Patreon, check the description for the links. I also passed 100k recently, and I'll be having a Q&A video to celebrate. Ask me questions!

[@zoutewand]

I have a relatively simple question Is cereal a type of (cold) soup, like gazpacho is

[@jtgd]

How’d you learn computer graphics for videos

[@ampersand055]

Why the switch from google earth?

[@ethanwagner]

No questions, just a shout-out for doing a cool thing w the revenue on this one. Hope this vid does well💜

[@fennecfoxfanatic]

Is itchy an emotion?

[@Nathaniel_B122]

“looking at playboy alone?” “NO! I’m with the science team!”

[@snark894]

i was gonna like but i realized this comment has 69 likes

[@luizmourabr]

STHAP!!!

[@Marcos42563]

@@snark894 Great name and profile picture

[@948320z]

I only read it for the articles!

[@Lol-xt9tg]

This is Madness im getting out of here

[@martasokoowska7094]

Sooooo... you're telling me that in my engineering thesis, which was about detecting unauthorised sharing and modification of photos (IN PARTICULAR noods) with image processing, I unknowingly used a stolen, cropped noode photo for algorithm comparison? The irony COULD NOT be stronger.

[@MynameisBrianZX]

My intro signal processing professor also didn’t tell me it was a cropped nude when it was provided as the test input, which weirded the whole class out when we found out a week later. We got over it fast because the explicit parts were cropped out and the assignment was over, but we all would’ve liked to be informed of its history and been allowed to use alternative famous images like doge.

[@simonghoul3602]

say it was intentional so everyone thinks you are a genius

[@andytruss1259]

what’s that title??? sounds interesting

[@domotoro3552]

and the top line of pixels was man-made, too

[@dansheppard2965]

I had no idea either, until many years later. It was just one of those photos that was in every paper, like the baboon and the peppers and stuff, and the postscript tiger and Utah teapot: and it was in all the image collections, so easy to get hold of. I guess I'd assumed it was from a home shopping catalogue or something at the time. It's kinda creepy when you find out about it. I mean, I can see some dopey postgrad not getting why it was a problem, but it's pretty amazing it got past the PIs and the journals and everything.

[@mowukamoon7024]

The part where you bleeped out “dolphin” and “sitting on a park bench wearing a raincoat” is just so funny to me…

[@helbent4]

I thought that was funny as well!

[@Jagaimo_chan]

I think that's a giant d*ck in the water

[@awaredeshmukh3202]

I wasn't looking at the screen when that happened and I had to go back and check XD

[@RichConnerGMN]

"don't erase the history of computing!!!" "ok" *lays out a lot of the history of women in computing* absolute chad

[@mikemikel1629]

I don't think it has to do so much with the history of computing but rather its culture if that makes sense. Just imagine a candy you had often when you were younger, imagine that for 20 or so years you had said candy every once in a while. Then the company goes bankrupt and there will no longer be anymore of said candy, it is a sad event. Why is it sad? the candy may have not been your favorite and you may have not had it for a couple of years already but it's still upsetting. You don't need to know the history of said candy or the company's founding or the reasons for its eventual bankruptcy. All you need to know is that the candy bar was there when you were 3, and 6, and 10, and so on (and that it no longer will be). There is an idea of identity which goes something like "you are what you repeatedly do" in a similar vein, we become the things and people and experiences that we have had. The discontinuation of the candy is also a part of us which no longer is, essentially death. OfCourse this all seems rather dramatic for what is essentially just no longer having a specific candy or in this case no longer using this picture, but I truly believe this is sort of the emotional underpinnings of why people attempt to resist change (even when its warranted). As for my opinion I think the image should probably be phased out because it seems to potentially be making things more difficult for woman studying this field (especially considering how they have already been screwed over in the past with the cultural push of men = computer). The image also seems to longer hold much value in the field and may actually be preventing progress which is never good. This being said, I think it is important to be empathetic and understanding towards the people who are losing a small part of their culture as I feel this video made a fairly good job at doing.

[@Finkelfunk]

"Don't erase the history of computing!" > Proceeds to call ENIAC the first fully programmable computer and completely erases Konrad Zuse from the history books, even though he built the Z3 nearly 5 years before ENIAC was a thing

[@Wired_User]

Imagine being a playboy model and your most famous contribution is to academia by being a test image. Weird reason to be famous.

[@mikebliss1835]

I'd almost be proud. You shot for horni but hit the bullseye for science.

[@MultiNaruto900]

​@@monad_tcp Bruh the original Lena image is low quality because it was a scan in the 70's. An _iPhone 6_ takes images 32 times better in terms of quality 💀

[@mark-kg7wg]

@@MultiNaruto900 yea I liked that line ..funny thing is iPhone 6 is 10 years old .. I still remember the original iPhone

[@MultiNaruto900]

@@mark-kg7wg And I instantly feel old. My birth year starts with a 1 💀

[@cryora]

@@MultiNaruto900 But an iPhone nowadays cannot take beautiful subjects like they did back then thanks to woke culture.

[@NovemberXXVII]

Ooh, girl, you know you got a nice mixture of detail, shading, and flat regions. Has anyone ever told you you'd be great for testing image processing algorithms?

[@davidgustavsson4000]

Also you have a human face, so if anything changed it would be immediately uncanny ;)

[@isweartofuckinggod]

The fact that pick up line would probably work on me...........

[@kidkangaroo5213]

@@isweartofuckinggod *STEMlords furiously taking notes*

[@katiekawaii]

@@davidgustavsson4000 😂

[@Raupekaa]

yes.

[@trainzelda1428]

Absolutely obsessed with how Bobby goes "oh you guys care so deeply about remembering programming history? Ok then," iconic

[@clwireg]

"You know C++? Name 3 of their albums" sent me

[@alliu6562]

Absolutely based of him to do this, incredible work of impeccable researching and pure pettiness

[@SinDemon]

My nana was one of the WReNs, the British ladies who worked on the top-secret computers that decoded the Enigma and Lorenz ciphers. Any time she and her colleagues are acknowledged it makes me immensely proud to be her grandson. Thanks! (p.s., she passed away in 2009 at the age of 84. When we visited Bletchley Park as a family just a couple of years beforehand, she wrote a message in the visitors' book that said "it's good to be back", and included her military service number, which she could still remember by heart. My hero!)

[@sollamander2206]

My grandmother was a Wren as well! I don't think she worked on decoding (if she did, she was a very good secret keeper) but she was sent to modern day Myanmar to serve under Lord Mountbatten. Those women were pioneers and such an important part of British history.

[@SinDemon]

@@sollamander2206 That sounds like quite the adventure she got to go on! You're absolutely right, the world would not be as we know it without them.

[@KBY30]

Thanks to your grandma for her service 🫡

[@melodiclogic9904]

The wrens, the women’s land army (which my great grandmother was in), the female night wardens, fire wardens (which my other great grandmother did in the middle of poplar, a pretty heavily bombed area of London), the female factory workers, nurses, spies and more carried out country through the war, and will never get enough. We can never thank them enough.

[@stupidcat9370]

I just realized that the colors on the graph are the same colors found in the lena image. truly genius.

[@mathematicalmachinery7934]

The feeling I got reading that was the same feeling I get when rickrolled.

[@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic563]

​@@mathematicalmachinery7934 Lenarolled

[@laserkahn5444]

The story reminds me of back when I was in high school. the faculty had a problem with the projector. It would be the wrong color I decided to make a couple of test images with me holding a variety of objects and color swashes. Then printed them out from a laser printer I went to the principal and told them here are the images on this USB, the teacher can put it inside their laptop or computer and adjust the color settings on the projector to the right settings. Thread high school they always used it. Eventually after I left and graduated they hired an IT company and ask them to make a program that will automatically adjust the color on the computer and guess what pictures they used in the test program, me! ...... I didn't realize they were still using it till my brother told me. I recently went to presentation in the school and to my horror a picture of me comes on the projector the screen flashes and it gets to the right adjustment.... Lesson learned don't use yourself as an image test subject.....

[@jdk9673]

That’s hilarious! How long have you been out of school?

[@laserkahn5444]

@@jdk9673 about 5 years.

[@Zyrdalf]

Now you are famous as projector person

[@vivanecrosis]

Immortalised in the realm of the machines.

[@TarisRedwing]

lol I expected it to be an image of what you where holding not you, that would spook me a lil but cool none the less.

[@TrueLawbringer]

All I needed to hear was that Lena would like the image retired. To be quite frank that information alone should be the end of it.

[@revimfadli4666]

It doesn't really end until a better replacement completely replaces it everywhere. That information is also crucial

[@noahhill841]

she allowed the image to be published. You cant withdraw consent years after the fact. Otherwise every single person who has an ex who they regret being with can be defined as a rapist

[@albingrahn5576]

​@@noahhill841it's just a nice thing to do? no one is forbidding anyone from using the image, it's not illegal. they just recommend against it in their style guide because it would be kinda weird to keep insisting on using this porn image in academic papers after you've been specifically asked not to by the person in it.

[@XC-Z-cv8qw]

​@@noahhill841 Bro how did we go from withdrawing consent for an intellectual property such as a photo pose to talking about withdrawing consent for "the act". Women or any other person should be able to withdraw consent for photos published even decades before. Don't overthink it.

[@artemisisagirl]

@@noahhill841 She consented to it being published in Playboy, but not to it being reproduced without permission and used by a bunch of computer scientists for 50 years. Those computer scientists broke copyright law and she's justified in asking for it to be retired.

[@alucardavathorn8930]

I wonder how that must have felt to see this women from a photo used for digital algorithms show up to be at events and awards and so on , but hearing her being credited as a patron saint for women in a field that already had an issue with giving credit to the work of women. While it's nice to see she got treated to come to the awards show it rubs me the wrong way that she was almost put in that seat in place of crediting any of the thousands of women who put in countless work hours to get the image algorithms to work. IDK if that's a weird way to look at the picture or not ahh

[@aureliagold1222]

No it's definitely frustrating that the ideal woman for many in that world was only involved distantly, passively, and for their convenience.

[@spudd86]

The use of the word "Bug" predates finding the moth in the relay. That's why they kept it. It was funny that a bug caused a bug. It actually probably pre-dates electronic computers.

[@weberman173]

thats also the origin of the joke they made about it "the first time a real bug was found in a computer" or something like that

[@silverdrag0n_]

yeah, wasn't it used in knitting?

[@MynameisBrianZX]

so the question might rather be: when was the first documented use of the term “bug”, meaning a defect, for computers specifically? Was it the same event as finding the moth?

[@BarbarossaSC2]

"This soup is good! Kind of tastes different than last time though." "Oh, there's a few bugs in it."

[@renerpho]

@@MynameisBrianZX The first use is from 1878, when Thomas Hughes quoted a letter by Thomas Edison (yeah, Edison invented the bug): "I have the right principle and am on the right track, but time, hard work and some good luck are necessary too. It has been just so in all of my inventions. The first step is an intuition, and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise - this thing gives out and [it is] then that "Bugs" - as such little faults and difficulties are called - show themselves and months of intense watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success or failure is certainly reached."

[@RAYNINGMAKER]

I once wrote in a homework paper for uni: 7. Troubleshooting Problems in Dataset Processing 7.1 Ignoring the Problem I got full marks on that section

[@innacrisis6991]

As you damn well should've

[@zeronex738]

You are my hero

[@RAFMnBgaming]

The professors know.

[@cmyk8964]

Yeah, “accepting the limitations and understanding how they affect the results” is a valid response.

[@Elenrai]

@@nirmithra1 the phrase;Activate Windows. That is all

[@owmylehg7811]

24:09 That's neat, my Grandmother also was a super early programmer. She first learned COBOL, because her job was to take the code that the programmers made and manually type it all out into a machine that made the punch cards. At first she knew nothing and was never taught, but after a while she learned and started pointing out errors and stuff that the other programmers missed. Eventually she was promoted, and worked for years doing programming for mostly large pharmaceutical companies.

[@SuperSmashDolls]

And fortunately, nobody ever used images in signal processing research without permission ever again. *OpenAI has entered the chat*

[@austinfletchermusic]

*distant screaming in Humans Never Learn*

[@cor_alai]

*cries out in when will you learn, that your actions have CONSEQUENCES*

[@BeepBoopBee]

Yeah... AI art generators are the stuff of nightmares for people like me. Partially because of privacy issues (i dont like people using images of me without permission) and I'm a digital artist. Technology such as these AI art generators could and likely already has destroyed jobs and commission opportunities for artists. Because why would you pay an artist hundreds or thousands of dollars when you can just press a few buttons for free? But aside from that, there's another big issue: the use of artists' works for training AI software to be able to perfectly replicate those works. Something that is very close to being copyright infringement. And basically all these only have an option to OPT OUT. Your work is AUTOMATICALLY INCLUDED UNLESS YOU CONTACT EACH ONE TO GET EACH OF YOUR WORKS REMOVED FROM THE SOFTWARE. It's incredibly shady and scummy. And it could pose serious legal issues. I hope that if these generators are going to stick around, there will be at the very least regulations put in place that requires prior permission from the owner of the image before it can be used.

[@hisnitch]

Of anything it's worst, because now people are doing with the justification that "all the outputs are totally non-copyrightable, we totally didn't steal them from actual artists, don't worry about, just march straight into the future."

[@4nn4h]

@@BeepBoopBee I must confess that I actually did use an AI art generator to make a "stock image" so I didn't have to pay for one. I ended up having a conversation with a friend about it, though, and realised I was doing a shitty thing, and bought what turned out to be a nicer human-made photo. The sad thing is I'm actually an artist myself, and nearly did the cheapskate thing all of us hate.

[@GrayDaDolf]

Fun Fact: The green pepper in the foreground of “Peppers” is actually used in GIMP as a paintbrush, to showcase the use of colored brushes.

[@sholmes3654]

thats cool! I vaguely recall a pepper brush being in that art program - its cool that its part of that image! :O

[@hen6003]

Another Fun Fact: The founder of the GNU project (which made GIMP) jokingly said in an email about the brush that GIMP stands for "green is my pepper"

[@dfgsfhghgsf]

I saw Peppers and my jaw dropped with recognition

[@leap123_]

ah yes, the classic r/linuxmemes "made with gimp" watermark

[@gocho7247]

gnu is my pepper :)

[@unvergebeneid]

If you didn't know the Lena image, you haven't been in image processing for long. It is _the_ test image. It's like the Wilhelm scream of the image processing world.

[@unvergebeneid]

Just to be clear, just like the Wilhelm scream, this whole thing has long run its course. At best it's annoying at this point.

[@cubiss1273]

I learned about Lena in a signal filtering class at CS college. The image is so omnipresent. If you didn't know about Lena image, you didn't know about image processing at all.

[@lottieluna123]

And most sound designers find the Wilhelm scream to be outdated and extremely campy. You aren't pushing boundaries by using the Wilhelm scream.

[@unvergebeneid]

@@Game_Hero because this is the KZbin comments section and bad-faith interpretations are the norm. Why do you ask?

[@unvergebeneid]

@@lottieluna123 that's what I meant with my "just to be clear" section the other commenter found unnecessary 😄

[@Waka002]

I don’t know if you’ll see this but this video was presented in my class at my university to explain the topics covered. Congrats and since then I’ve loved every single one of your videos!

[@BobbyBroccoli]

Wow that's great! What subject was the class?

[@AwesomeTheAsim]

Answer Waka

[@valentinaaugustina]

answer waka

[@henjaiamamiya8795]

answer waka

[@ravenskylord3143]

Answer waka

[@zapzapzarap6148]

„If you know how to cook by a cooking book you will be also good using a computer“ well that’s funny, in my Chemical education my teacher would always tell us that if we can go by the Procedures and don’t mess them up we will also make good cooks. As a young guy I was like „makes sense“ and just went with that and learned to cook. That guy taught me more than just chemistry

[@boborson5536]

Thats why we say let em cook, when we mix up the Hydrochloric Acid with the Sulfuric Acid.

[@Moggetslittlesister]

The warning against using the Lena image sounds like something straight out of an SCP! I was half-expecting you to to talk about its dangerous memetic properties lol

[@goombizdvorakkiewicz5226]

That'd be too much fun. Instead, we got a grim reminder of how much of a boy's club the field of Computer Science is.

[@sideways5153]

In a way, that was actually the point of the video. The cognitohazard is way more boring than most SCPs, but the core of the problem is how this picture from a nudie mag changes the way researchers engage with each other and their work. That’s why journals are pushing to keep people from using it - allowing it to remain so constantly prominent is exposing everybody who reads your journal to the cognitive effects of seeing a 50 year old picture from a nudie mag used instead of anything more appropriate for the work in large part because of a system-wide temper tantrum thrown by jerks who would rather call women names anonymously than just let nudie mags stop being something you keep with you in your work space. The horror in SCPs is rooted in this type of real-world struggle to combat widespread ideas about what is or isn’t okay. What if you had to tell people not to perform a play or they’d all die? What if you had to tell people to never blink all at the same time in the same room as this statue? What if you had to tell people to stop making women uncomfortable? It’s not as much fun, but it is exactly the same type of stuff

[@pabloemiliorui2281]

@@sideways5153 okay so now what youre gonna do is take this concept, run with it and write a top rated page,

[@agranero6]

I thought something similar. You could even write a short story, like the image has hidden information in it that cause harm in several levels. Like the Lord of the flies that Stalislav Lem describes in his fiction His Master's Voice (an incredibly rich book that describes academic internal politics in a degree that only a person that lived it could write about).

[@joshuakuehn]

I mean it does have memetic properties. It induces erections and can cause coomers to commit domestic violence against their dick.

[@CaioAguida]

This is the best academic procrastination trip I ever seen. You went from "I should read a style manual for a journal" to "ok, video historiography of this mysterious forbidden picture" and finally to "oh, now I see, it's a video essay on sociology of computer science with a historiography on Lena and her picture". High quality content.

[@thezipcreator]

procrastinated so hard they made an entire 30 minute video by the end

[@CaioAguida]

@@thezipcreator the procrastination vibe we should all toil to attain.

[@0NeeN0]

@@thezipcreator Yea, that's the point. If you really don't want to do something you will even find yourself funding, writing, producing, directing and acting in indie B horror movie just to escape task supposed to do.

[@Slush_]

Completely recontextulizes the video and I'm here for it

[@draketurtle4169]

@@0NeeN0 6. How to procrastinate submitting a paper. 6.1 do anything but submit the paper. … this even includes reading other papers and maybe making a 30minute KZbin video about your experience of ‘procrastinating submitting a paper’

[@chinemapictures]

I love how you make these graphics and zoom in on things but it’s like - everything is in the same space / and you can just zoom out and see this insane journey. Love that.

[@AndrewTaylorPhD]

An amusing demonstration of this is the satirical image compression algorithm (yes really) called "Len-PEG", which is exactly the same as JPEG except that if you give it a zero-byte file it renders Lena. In the worst case it's the same as JPEG, but by a standard test metric it manages 100% compression.

[@rockyhatch8395]

“Oh you code in C++? Name 3 of their albums.”. Absolutely sent me 😂

[@watchm4ker]

std, boost, and qt.

[@0NeeN0]

CodeBlocks, Visual Studio, Eclipse But they did too many to put them in some "Brackets" of genre, maybe if they were more Sublime then Texts would be even more engaging, maybe then they would be worthy writing in some Notepad so you can share them with some friends + family + partner. PS. Sorry for that horrible pun-software thing, can't even call it a joke. Couldn't stop myself

[@watchm4ker]

@@0NeeN0 Ergh. Mainstream. You should have been there for the Borland days.

[@0NeeN0]

​@@watchm4ker true, i just took 4 years 16-20 yo with C++, Python, Java, web design (HTML5, CSS, JS for frontend and PHP + databases for backend) while learning at the same time networks, servers (and network protocol settings both on windows and Linux [Debian to be specific]). And "manual" side of things like building PCs, soldering, theory, binary, octal, hexadecimal logic gates etc. Also besides normal English (I'm Polish) we had to took specific English lessons just for computer/electronic terminology.

[@0NeeN0]

@@watchm4ker So I'm jack of all trades but if you give me something semi-professional from any thing that I listed I probably couldn't do it. And I'm 21 so I don't remember Borland days xD

[@dogg6628]

Imagine a researcher reading playboy and finding the Lenna image going like "oooh yea baby that's one good template processing image..."

[@Purplesquigglystripe]

There’s so much unchecked horniness out there

[@kingkingdom5975]

Its giving me post nut clarity vibes

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

Going viral on the ARPANET.

[@crisptomato9495]

Ngl as an art student sometimes when I look at nsfw content I think “damn they’d be perfect in figure drawing class look at how prominent that iliac crest is” so I don’t doubt it lol.

[@FM-kl7oc]

Reading Playboy "for research purposes".

[@phuturephunk]

My Maternal grandmother was one of the women that helped to develop the IBM System/360, the OS, in specific.

[@greenwarrior33]

I am loving the trend of real professional documentaries coming from the internet. Also the trend of them giving me whiplash from the shift from "oh this is cool" to "there are systemic issues in place". I am going to have to pick up that book and also have a new found appreciation for all of the W.I.S.E groups while I was in college.

[@keto0303]

Yes, isnt it wonderful how freedom of speech is shrinking, everything is politicized, and men are demonized. We are getting to Geroge Orwell's 1984 don't worry

[@asynesthesickid]

I used this image in a paper I was working on without a second thought. When I sent the paper to my advisor for review, they sent me back an angry E-mail reprimanding me for using a pornographic image in a professional paper. I was absolutely blindsided, as I just used the image because I saw it used in so many papers in my literature review. Ever since then I always research the origin of images before I use them. Edit: Just to be clear we smoothed it out right away, I was briefly mortified, but I just went to his office to speak with him and get clarification and we smoothed it over very quickly. It ended up being sort of funny in retrospect.

[@amoureux6502]

This is probably further reason to retire it, people who don't know the context of the photo assume it can't be anything controversial because it's everywhere, and then it leads to some uncomfortable situations with people in the know. More than that though your takeaway to always research the origin of pics is a super important lesson with how quickly images can be spread

[@komrade223]

@@amoureux6502 or maybe academia needs to inform students of these issues or journals need to keep records so they can gently explain this to first time offenders. Being screamed at for a mistake made with no malice can cause massive harm to a good person who messed up. Explaining why a certain source is outdated can do wonders. It sounds like an issue of education and communication after a certain period. It is like a tradesman (or woman) not telling a young one about the mistakes of the old days. And then expecting them not to follow 90 year old manuals to the letter.

[@iHATEbigots666]

That is silly. The Lena image when cropped is not porn

[@jensphiliphohmann1876]

@@iHATEbigots666 I don't consider it porn even if not cropped. Of course, it shows a naked woman. So what. May some men risen in an atmosphere of prudery be overwhelmed by sexual desire whenever they see so, I'm not (particularly it the image is processed much, removing any "beauty faults" such as pigment dots). However, the real issue with the typical male look on a naked woman or a picture of her isn't even sexual desire itself but rather that this woman to many is an _object_ of desire. "A sex symbol is a thing and I hate being a thing," Marilyn Monroe once said.

[@iHATEbigots666]

@@jensphiliphohmann1876 I pretty much agree. I want to consider the other side of the debate here, but I feel like the only reason why people are upset about the Lena image is because we are so very sex-negative in our society. As far as I'm concerned, the Lena image is a picture of a woman existing. It's all very heteronormative as well. I'm a woman that likes women and I'm not sure if anyone seems to remember that it's not only men who like women.

[@argonianmaid8555]

My grandmother was a programmer in the 60s. She was unfortunately encouraged to quit to be a housewife but she's always kept up with the tech, teaching herself new coding languages as they become relevant. Currently in her late 70s she made and upkeeps her church website and she also participates in a site that digitally archives old tombstones. It's really interesting to hear more about the history of women in this field.

[@scorinth]

I would love to see some recorded stories/interviews. While grocery shopping a few years ago, I happened to strike up a conversation with a woman who would have been just starting her career in the '60s. Her stories about the industry back then were fascinating.

[@playwonderwall]

Women who have been in tech for decades are amazing, the absolute backbone in computer technology; they really inspire me to continue programming for my CIS degree

[@googleuser7771]

What's unfortunate about that? Is it unfortunate that your grandmother actually raised her own children? Why do people place careers above all else?

[@zekrua4006]

@@googleuser7771 It's not about the direct suggestion; in general, I think caring for your family is far more important than working at a job, if you have the resources to forgo a profession. It's about how women are suggested to leave a field for largely sexist reasons. You never see "quit your job to raise your family" phrases applied to men, whereas women were seen as only useful for "the bringing forth of strong children." People with passion for their profession can bring a lot of good to a field, and OP's grandmother clearly had a knack for it, given that she kept up with the field for the 50-60 years she was unemployed. I think that's what OP was eluding to.

[@Faroesx]

@@googleuser7771 it’s unfortunate to have to quit a job that you enjoy to cook, clean, and take care of a house. What, do you enjoy doing housework more than a fun hobby?

[@lampb0obs]

Both of my grandmothers worked with computers and had jobs that were considered low level for the time, but would be considered pretty impressive now.

[@seraphina985]

It is good to hear someone actually pay attention to the contributions of women to computer science. Especially for me, the only person in my family that could really keep up with me talking about computers was my grandmother. As a young lady she was employed at Bletchley Park initially her work was in decoding the messages using the solutions provided by the Bombe. But turned out when that method largely went dark due to the upgrades she showed aptitude for the computing side and ended up being trained as one of the programmers for the colossus. I wish I knew more about it as I found all of that so cool but she was always limited what she could share even with parts of it being declassified towards the end of her life. But was also interesting to hear her personal stories as she worked alongside Alan Turing also so it was interesting to learn what another icon in computer science was like as a person, especially since this would be before the oppressive drug regimen that left him a shadow of his former self was applied all over the fact that he happened to be attracted to other men.

[@AnEmu404]

Wow, that’s incredible! I have some things I’d love to say and talk about here but I’m not supposed to, so I’ll just say that if true, you must have had an amazing grandmother.

[@seraphina985]

@@AnEmu404 Thank you for that and while I'll probably never learn of the work you have done I feel for the self sacrifice of the many people that like my grandmother worked tirelessly only to have society bury their accomplishments with them, I was hit hard with the realisation that so many people like my nan have and still are devoting their life to vital work that they will never be able tp share even with their own family. I'm autistic and often prefer to be alone and yet I could not survive being drowned in the worst of humanity and compelled to live in isolation from your own family like that, my autism is bad enough that I often feel alone in a crowded room but I merely have my overwhelming anxiety holding me back. I really could not manage living with the isolation of being forced to hide my life like that. I struggle enough with the added restrictions that come along with founding a business serving government clients, I can at least try to open up to a friend when that overwhelms me usually, I may not be the best at achieving that but it is a small part of my life thst I must live in isolation under the threat of prison. My grandmother must have dealt with so much more alone that I wouldn't have the strength to survive.

[@AnEmu404]

@@seraphina985 wow, the stuff about your nan is interesting, albeit depressing. History also often forgets or re-writes the story of women and/or queer people who have done important work, so it’s vital to keep remembering them. I’m also autistic, and the things I’m not allowed to talk about are actually about someone in my family, but I’ll refrain from expanding on why to be on the safe side. That family member has impressed upon me the importance of alan turing’s work and the toll it took on him (and those who worked with him). I happen to be about to go and study engineering at university, and being autistic and anxiety prone makes the prospect terrifying. Also I happen to be coming to terms with my queer identity so it’s a double whammy. It is possible to survive though, and hopefully even thrive, and i wish you all the best friend.

[@itsgonnabeanaurfromme]

@@AnEmu404 there are many queer people who have done important work in history. It's just that their sexuality is not the main focus. in fact, how do you know that their work has been ignored or rewritten? Do you know the sexualities of every single person in history?

[@lowkeylunatic]

Using the color palette of the Lena test image for the graph was a nice touch! Kudos

[@kalidwapur]

Oh I ticked about the colors but didn't put it together nice catch!

[@FuzzyJeffTheory]

Sort of ironic considering the conclusion of the video was to stop using Lena. Would be a nice touch if at the end, the color palette changed

[@DocBree13]

I thought so, too :)

[@mcsweatshop]

that's it. I'm starting my own science journal where you're only allowed to use the raunchiest, hairiest smut mag images from the 70s and 80s. Everything else will be rejected with prejudice and the authors tracked down and set on fire.

[@qwertyuiop.lkjhgfdsa]

yea

[@jamesgoldring1052]

U want to be on a room full of the sweatiest losers in the world F*** no Those "guys" can rot in hell

[@ChrisD__]

And I'm starting one where it's all cropped gay furry smut! Even the Cheesegrater image.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

@@ChrisD__ assuming college kids arent already on e621

[@ChrisD__]

@@circleinforthecube5170 Assuming their professors aren't too.

[@fynnsternis6432]

i literally learned about Lena in school, i can assure you, the image is not being lost to history anytime soon lmao

[@mollyrushton9121]

god i love your videos! i was raised mostly by my grandmother and she taught me a lot about traditionally feminine handiwork. as a physics student, i'm realising just how valuable these skills are and how scientific "women's work" is. the kind of math that goes into cooking, the intricate biology of gardening, the geometry in quilting, managing a household requires a good grasp on engineering and the process of finding a flaw in your embroidery is very similar to debugging. i kinda tear up when i think about it, but people have been doing science for centuries! your oldest ancestor learning to weave a basket was a scientist! they considered the material, the tension, how to reinforce it. that's science baby!! every time i read about biology i think of my grandma and now i'll pour one out for lena when i'm getting a jpeg to load

[@bunnycat24]

this is such a nice comment :)

[@belh4wk]

couldn't resist; how slow is your internet connection that jpegs still need to load, let alone load long enough for you to be able to pour one? :P

[@furriesinouterspaceUnited]

I love being feminine as a male

[@liammhodonohue]

This fine detailed work is important - whether within the traditionally female realm of handicraft etc or male realm of... watch/instrument making. I vaguely recall a sociology story about basket weaving or pot making being a man's job in one society but women's work in another🤷‍♂️ My daughter likes making little trinkets from Fimo clay. She makes for friends and even takes commissions. She has a rough idea to become a dentist. I said this intricate work is essential and is even listed alongside the grade requirements for admission to dental programs. I suggested she has a "portfolio" much like an artist. At the interview she can show her work but also time commitment and progression over time.

[@furriesinouterspaceUnited]

@@liammhodonohue gendering stuff is stupid and pointless

[@MedlifeCrisis]

Never knew any of this, how fascinating. Utterly useless to my life, but fascinating nevertheless.

[@morganburt2565]

that’s the point of youtube, man. like i’m a liberal arts student watching ur videos lmfao

[@MedlifeCrisis]

@@morganburt2565 long may irrelevant fascinating knowledge continue!

[@personpersoon3332]

we have like the same taste in youtube videos lol i see you everywhere

[@kaymish6178]

It's not useless. use it as a chance to reflect on how you act and think about similar instances in your life. perhaps there is something that you can do to improve the circles you move in using what you learned in this video.

[@personpersoon3332]

@@kaymish6178 could you give an example?

[@spongebobbatteries]

I just watched how one man singlehandedly brought Prezi back to life but in 3D. Amazing editing.

[@einenglander3223]

Small suggestion to watch a Jon Bois series, he’s one of the original popularizers of the format

[@lankyfishy]

iirc he mentioned he uses blender

[@mr.expensive3773]

Bobby, you really are good at making an interesting story about a small point. I love how you transform small nerd stories into a more broad discussion about our society. Keep the good job !

[@creativename8275]

Woman in STEM here- thank you for including the voices of women in regard to the Lena image, I know it's a small thing but I'm glad you addressed the topic with the care it deserves.

[@LordConstrobuz]

too bad the womens contributions to this video were completely unnecessary and made the video worse

[@tomnyskull]

Ignore that piece of shit, its good that your voices can be heard

[@killerqueen6054]

I have a genuine question to ask. How and why? I don’t see the relevance in specifically asking women about the image? The ethical aspects to consider about the image is that it was copyrighted and it was from Playboy. But everything sexual was cropped out. It’s just a face, I don’t see the big deal besides the two things I mentioned.

[@creativename8275]

@@killerqueen6054 The field the image is used in is predominated by men. It's not that the picture is sexual, or that it has an iffy copyright history, but that it reflects the disquieting way women in the field can be treated. In an issue about a woman's face that mainly reflects how women were/are perceived among computer scientists, it only makes sense to ask women how they feel about it. Wouldn't it be strange if no women's opinions were included at all?

[@furriesinouterspaceUnited]

​@@creativename8275who cares that it's filled by men? If that same picture was actually a male the result wouldn't change

[@PCgameandgamer]

In university my entire image precessing course was done using the Lena image. It wasn't till one of my colleagues told me about the origin of the image that I found out about it. Like I didn't know the entire context but it struck me as so incredibly odd that they'd use what's essentially cropped porn as scholar material. I guess I got too used to it because the second I saw your thumbnail I was like oh wait is that Lena?

[@Daniel_Klugh]

Lena Soderberg was never in porn.

[@zwenkwiel816]

Yeah that is odd, I mean why on earth would they crop it?!

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

And yet you used it for an entire course Kind of explained it yourself why it was used

[@bea95]

Same. We used this image several times during the course and none of us were aware of the story afaik. (The course instructor was a woman) Honestly, I don't see any problem with the img apart form it being an outdated / lowres sample to test stuff on

[@animula6908]

It makes sense to me. Scholars are all desperate perverts.

[@klweth5439]

I took an image processing course at my university last semester the lecturer brought up the picture and how it can't be used anymore. At the time I thought it was wierd that the image shouldnt be used and didnt really understand why not. This video definitely explained it really well.

[@writershard5065]

This video is stirring my inner rebellious vibes and making me want to publish a paper with a cropped image of a very attractive man from a nude in a Playgirl magazine. Good thing I'm not in the image processing field to make that happen.

[@NoahGooder]

@@writershard5065 then get a friend in the feild and do it with them :P

[@JohnR436]

@@writershard5065 if only our society was ready for that level of equality 😄

[@jonasdatlas4668]

@@writershard5065 aaand now I'd totally do the same. But I don't do image processing either :/ Edit: I could think of a few people to email though...

[@eragon78]

@@JohnR436 I doubt anybody would care tbh. Sexualization of men happens all the time and nobody really cares. I mean you still see half naked jacked guys on like every fashion catalog involving men anywhere. Or look at super hero movies and stuff. The only people who would probably care are the ones who are touchy when it comes to things involving porn in general and tend to not want anything to do with it. But idk, I personally dont think it matters too much. Its not like the image itself is actually pornographic. All that stuff was (or would be) cut away.

[@HeWhoLaugths]

An old neighbour of my grand mother's worked on the enigma project. She died a couple of years ago. When she died her daughter just threw all her old photo albums with a bunch of stuff on the enigma project out into a skip. Her name was Alice

[@JessicaPradoHanson]

WTF!?! I wonder why?

[@horusreloaded6387]

​@@JessicaPradoHansonHey, Alice is a nice name. Why wouldn't her name be Alice?!

[@Roz390]

"Justice feels like oppression when you are used to privilege." Thank you for covering this topic

[@billwall267]

use an unfalsifiable definition of "privilege," use it to oppress the "privileged," call it "justice." one weird trick.

[@lobster7514]

​@@billwall267what

[@keto0303]

@@billwall267 Agree! Men are being oppressed in today's society. We live in dangerous times, reminds me of George Orwell 1984

[@confused.pigeon]

​@@keto0303Everyone, point and laugh at the incel

[@inactive_ina]

@@keto0303 you forgot the /s

[@Aquatarkus96]

Im a bit shocked someone hasn't come up with a replacement for Lena, like a purposeful replacement that looks to integrate all the technical details that are frequently referenced as reasons to use the image. Like, we could easily have a test image with a human face, intricate details, and subtile shading that isn't taken from a nudie mag lol. Shouldn't take a motivated group of photography, theatre, and comp sci students more than a few days to cook up something good

[@SavageGreywolf]

@@qd0t471 what's wrong with it is that the image is under copyright.

[@lostmybadger]

@@qd0t471 did you watch the video?

[@KitagumaIgen]

@@qd0t471 There's a time and a place when it is inappropriate to enjoy this that and the next.

[@lexacutable]

@@qd0t471 cmon, stigmatisation has nothing to do with it and you know it. stop using slippery slope arguments. i am a programmer *and* i make adult content on the side and even i think the image was inappropriate

[@D3ltus]

Just browse photographers instas and you'll probably find many replacements

[@forrcaho]

They should take a new picture of Lena, in a pose and in attire appropriate to a respected elder, and use that as their new canonical image. That way they could have an image using modern state-of-the-art technology, and maintain a connection with tradition. Also, when it comes to challenges facing the image processing community, I'm sure that using an elder's face would present some interesting wrinkles.

[@AximVidya]

why go to all that effort just to preserve a "tradition"? very sus imo

[@DrRyan82994]

@@AximVidya sus, does the word “tradition” make you think of like the 14 words or something?

[@AximVidya]

​@@DrRyan82994 yes that is what a lot of self-proclaimed "traditionalists" appear to be advocating for

[@Jane-oz7pp]

@@DrRyan82994 given that I've almost never heard anybody use the word tradition outside of weird ultranationalistic sentiments, I'd be surprised if it didn't make most people think something similar. Weird how quickly you jumped to the 14 words though, they on your mind a lot?

[@aliceiscalling]

​@@Jane-oz7pp You've never heard people talk about their cultural traditions? like Hispanic, Latino, Native American, African, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc traditions? You're really missing out on the majority of human experiences if you've never had a talk with someone about their traditions.

[@Savroge]

The stuff about Lena herself and her life has me crying 😭

[@hestiahar6367]

Learning the history of women in computer engineering just made me extremely sad. I'm sure if ppl from the past saw how many males were in the industry now, they'd be so shocked

[@sophroniel]

Also because it's now men who are thought to be best at repetitive, meticulous work, which is funny

[@plzletmebefrank]

... would they be shocked though? Why?

[@nicholaskoa1371]

@@sophroniel sexism, yea thats really funny sophia!

[@User-hg1jk]

@@nicholaskoa1371 mad because true

[@peteryeeterson5766]

@@plzletmebefrank because it was originally primarily women in the field

[@khhnator]

i suggest we also add a picture of Fabio every time we use Lena

[@BobbyBroccoli]

This has actually been done! And the proper rights were acquired beforehand

[@fraktaalimuoto]

@@BobbyBroccoli Can we get the DOI reference to that paper? ;D

[@alfonsstekebrugge8049]

This is such a better solution than retiring such an iconic piece of history over some largely unrelated discrimination QQ. I mean obviously the discrimination is something we should all regret, but as always the symbols that come from carry the lesson we want people to learn. By removing them we learn nothing. Add a Fabio and we take a step forwards.

[@RAFMnBgaming]

Wholeheartedly agree, put that into the universal declaaration of human rights.

[@Yadobler]

@@BobbyBroccoli what are the other 4 images that are being phased out together with lena?

[@NoJusticeNoPeace]

I'm in my 50s and I'm old enough that in my high school, girls were forced to take typing and home economics, while boys were forced to take auto mechanics and metal shop. And even when they started being forced to integrate by the school board, teachers would quietly stream all the boys into cooking and all the girls into sewing in the home ec class, for example.

[@ciarantaaffe4199]

great!

[@replicaacliper]

@Anarky Lastname that's hilarious that you equate trade school and prison

[@NoJusticeNoPeace]

@Anarky Lastname It was a little less overt than that. They had advanced, general, and remedial classes, but it was more about the school itself. Schools in poor neighbourhoods didn't get computer labs, they got woodworking shops and auto bays, and there was no stigma placed on taking general-level classes. The schools were dingy grey concrete bunkers surrounded by bare concrete. On the other hand, schools in rich neighbourhoods got the best computers, lots of things like art classes and grassy athletic fields, and if you weren't taking advanced level courses, you were quietly "encouraged" (read: bullied) by teachers into transferring to a school more in keeping with your career path of blue collar servitude.

[@aturchomicz821]

@@replicaacliper Tourism workers and practical engineers must be in shambles rn😩

[@rightwoke]

I'm in my 50s also. No one was ever forced to take options courses by gender, and I believe you are deliberately exaggerating in this statement. It is true that in general girls preferred to take home economics while boys generally chose shop and mechanics. But I believe that, just as we find in North European countries where equality in genders is greatest, and where women continue to choose nursing while men choose engineering, it seems to just be natural differences in the genders.

[@kaiyachidester8326]

Thank you so much. I loved the video. It's nice to see a fuller view of history. I have been binge watching all of your videos over the last week. I was not expecting the donation at the end, and I was so unexpectantly touched, I could barely see through my tears. Thank you!

[@TheApryl]

I'm so glad I found this channel. Your work is just excellent every time! Thank you for donating the proceeds of this video. ❤️

[@dakotahadley2865]

“Oh you code in C++? Name 3 of their albums” Absolutely killed me

[@JohnDlugosz]

* _The Need for Speed_ * _ISO/IEC 14882 acoustic live concert_ * _Template Metaprogramming and Turing_

[@huyxiun2085]

It's great you find it fun. It's indeed a funny joke. But remember it also is a sexist joke, used over and over and over e.g. to make girls drop from cs class. Yes, "humour" can be a nasty weapon. I'm obviously not saying we should stop having fun. It's just good to remember that what we see as "innocent and fun" can be dreadful and harmful to others. And the fact we don't see "how is that harmful?" PRECISELY mean we should think about it once again.

[@JohnDlugosz]

@@huyxiun2085 How is "3 of their albums" in any way sexist? Why would a girl drop from a CS class because of a sexist joke from the presenter?

[@quetzalcoatl-pl]

@@JohnDlugosz Have you ever heard this joke-question being asked to a boy? I for sure did not.

[@EDcaseNO]

It's funny because it highlights and mocks the gatekeeping mindset. With the context and use being *anti-sexist*...

[@hylacinerea970]

the legacy of women in math continues with my grandma. she’s currently 65 & no longer really a calculator, she’s a boss now. but for around 20 years she did nothing but calculate payroll & budget, all by hand with extremely minimal assistance. i say that if she hadn’t had 3 kids by 25, she’d have been a computer programmer

[@SnapThority]

>i say that if she hadn’t had 3 kids by 25, she’d have been a computer programmer and you probably wouldn't be here to type this

[@RaeIsGaee]

@@SnapThority I'd rather my grandma be a computer whiz over existing to be quite honest.

[@SnapThority]

@@RaeIsGaee fair

[@OwlyFisher]

my grandma _was_ a computer programmer who then retired to have my mum and her sister. she has a degree in maths :)

[@LKing-ue2jl]

@Jojo's Bizarre Music Library what is the point of this comment? Is it a gotcha or are you just that pedantic? 🤔

[@afarewelltokings]

20:50 my maternal grandmother was a human computer!!! this is one of the only computer history youtube videos where i have EVER heard that profession discussed!! thank you for talking about this!!

[@kingflumph5968]

The "but you can't erase history argument" is one of my favorites, as a history major. I notice they rarely have the same enthusiasm for getting more historical narratives about women, racial minorities, etc. published. "History" to some folks really means "things I like."

[@raze_]

Its always to protect the history that helps them protect their power. Theres a reason you dont hear the protect history argument people wanting to protect things like the move bombings or the burning of black wallstreet. And instead want to hide it.

[@littlepaperjellyfish]

yooo this kinda blew my mind. i've never really thought about that but it's so fucking true, anyway cheers for leaving this comment hope your studies are going well :-)

[@jonas1015119]

The technical argument alone should really shut down the debate, its a low resolution scan of a 50 year old magazine print. People actually adding artifacts and then removing them seems like borderline academic malpractice. Combine that with the fact that journals have been seemingly fine with continuous copyright infringement for decades, I couldnt even imagine that happening in european journals.

[@BrianWoodruff-Jr]

Starting from a known image, then adding noise/holes/whatever gives you a way to judge how well an algorithm can remove/fix the noise/holes/whatever objectively. You can compare the "cleaned" image with the original and see how close it gets. I would hope though that a paper includes from-the-wild "damaged" images to see how well they are cleaned up. Even if we can only subjectively grade how well those happen. On another note, sure, let's use a more modern image. Why, we could even have a suite of new images!

[@symmetrie_bruch]

my thought exactly. everything else seems just childish and nonsensical. you have 100000 ton argument there, why add or substract a few mg of verbiage around that? having said that, i wouldn´t be for frobidding it. if your paper calls precisely for that image, then use it. if there are better alternatives, it should be considered best practice to use them.

[@jimbrookhyser]

But retiring the image on its technical shortcomings doesn't really address the sexism. There are fewer women in CS because they have been afforded less respect. It is better to retire the image as a sign of respect. The only reason the image does harm is because of how it supports other sexist aspects of the culture.

[@timseguine2]

I agree with the first part, but on the point that "adding artifacts" is somehow wrong. No. Just no. A big part of how methods can be objectively measured relies on having a "ground truth" reference for what the correction is supposed to look like. How are you supposed to get the ground truth without corrupting the image yourself? Magic?

[@jonas1015119]

@@timseguine2 in that case you will train an AI that is very good ad removing human made artifacts. there are ways to use training data that isnt exclusively hand made and still verify sucessful outcomes

[@tomithebunny]

Everything else aside for a bit, Lena herself seems like a very cool lady, and that was a hell of a line to have for the documentary.

[@tomithebunny]

@@omp199 this is true! Even if scripted it's a good line for the general documentary imo.

[@john-paulsilke893]

I especially like that she wanted her name spelled more phonically so it would be pronounced properly. Way to own yourself and your sex appeal. She’s clearly beautiful on the inside as well as the outside.

[@bluemeriadoc]

doesn't use the internet. 2/10 not cool

[@hardcase7753]

i love your graphics choices and how you lay everything out as if you are showing us on a table.

[@sumairb9978]

Yeah it's great. Reminiscent of Jon Bois and Dorktown, but Broccoli put his own tasteful spin on it

[@bbqgiraffe3766]

Gonna offset this by picking a cropped picture of a hot twink for my image processing projects

[@mathITA]

I saw Lena for the first time at my first Numerical Analysis course. I'm happy they are finally retiring it. Even putting aside the moral controversy, I don't understand why modern academic papers should be tested on 50 years old, 512x512 images, just for "tradition"?

[@mathITA]

@@watcher8582 maybe you are right, but I don't see the need for tradition in research, expecially if such tradition mines down quality

[@wrenromero6392]

using the same images over time gives a control

[@railguncat7751]

@@wrenromero6392 the video addresses this. It's not providing control.

[@squibble311]

theres lots of people, not just in computer science, who favour tradition to relevancy

[@writershard5065]

@@watcher8582 But tradition can also chain life down. Tradition is important, but no one should rely on it. Change is important too. Life works best with a balance of the two, and it's time for the Lena image to be retired from practical use. No one's saying you still can't reference it for fun. But for practical scientific use? There's much better images from the modern day.

[@superiortrash3209]

I think it's very telling how often the opinions and wishes of lena herself seem to be ignored in discussions surrounding her image

[@GrifoStelle]

I'm only 20 minutes in, and though I know her opinion doesn't matter here because that's not her picture, it's playboy's. Proprietary rights and what not. I am very curious about what she thinks about the result of that picture not being used for it's intended purpose.

[@soloincognito9646]

@@GrifoStelle "her opinion doesn't matter here" -- I realize you go on to say you are interested in her opinion (she has said she would like the image to stop being used btw) so I'm not trying to make you feel bad for thinking this. I just want to point out that you don't need to take such a legalistic view of things in everyday life. Her opinion about a photo of herself absolutely matters for deciding if it's right to keep using it, that's why you're still interested in what she thinks. It might not have much legal weight behind it in court but that only matters in court. (and even in court I'm not so sure it'd be that simple. She gave Playboy the right to use her image, not all these researchers. And it's not like the researchers received permission from Playboy either. A court might decide she'd still have some legal right to object to unauthorized use like this. We wouldn't know for sure unless she tried)

[@holyspider9206]

@@soloincognito9646 it wouldn’t fly in court probably. Think about playboy using pamala anderson’s sex tape. They considered it “art”. Even though it’s her body, she never owned the magazine cover. Idk if playboy could successfully sue since it is their original photo, but lenna has no say in the image being used

[@I.____.....__...__]

@@GrifoStelle PlayBoy didn't grant a license to the researchers, they just (legally) looked the other way to _exploit_ it for _exposure._ Regardless, researchers don't HAVE to use it, they could absolutely _choose_ to not use it, even if it were free, if she didn't want them to. So yes, Lena's opinion does indeed matter. 😒

[@alexanderinoa7850]

@Grifo Cold I guess that's true lol

[@NachoBearYeah]

The history of women in computing is crazy. Glad that you talked about it! I wonder what very important work do women do nowadays that we don't care about but will be considered invaluable and groundbreaking in the future...

[@keto0303]

Whats crazy about it exactly?

[@NachoBearYeah]

@@keto0303 how they got completely erased from it when they've been there from the start, being the driving force for so long.

[@FUnzzies1]

​@@NachoBearYeahthat's hilarious. No one has been "erased"

[@NachoBearYeah]

@@FUnzzies1 have you not watched this video lmao

[@FUnzzies1]

@@NachoBearYeah It's on a video, it must be true! Yeah, I watched the hilariously politically biased video. No one has been erased.

[@greenfloatingtoad]

Every scientist should wear a fun hat and take a new test image. I think that would be so funny

[@redbandanacat6206]

Irrelevant to the whole subject but the fact that you used the color palette of the lena image for the 3d bar graphs is a nice detail

[@f.h.k6356]

I didn’t even realize that lol

[@H4PPYx337]

The use of Lena in image processing seems similar to the use of the Utah teapot in 3d modelling, a once useful reference that caught on in a niche community and became a meme. Obviously the Utah teapot doesn't have the same problematic nature yet it is still used to this and probably will continue to be used due to it's status. I expect the same will continue with Lena.

[@AmstradExin]

'Problematic' my ass. This whole discussion, completely avoiding that the Lena imagine has no green in it, shows that these guys are not actually intelligent but have some kind of mental inflexibility that comes close to an issue or even illness.

[@Jane-oz7pp]

@@AmstradExin what the fuck kind of nonsensical non-sequitur is that

[@Swagpion]

@@JorgetePanete it's*

[@Swagpion]

@@JorgetePanete I looked at the it is part. I'm dumb

[@left4twenty]

And in 3D printing, they use a tiny boat

[@solunstellpersonal1707]

Oh wow this is a phenomenal documentary! The transitions (script-wise) were seemless, and you handled it with care! The visuals were also incredibly satisfying!

[@AccountingNightmare]

Incredible video. The care and sensitivity with which you discussed this issue was admirable. Thank you for your documentaries! KZbin recommendations sent me to your channel and i'm really glad they did!

[@euchale]

I mean for me the biggest reason to not use the image is that missing top line of pixels. That alone would suffice for me to not use it.

[@juliee593]

For real, if it's not a good image to use in the first place, why use it? And why fight tooth and nail for it? I'm really confused by the people who are so adamant to keep using this image when it's 50 years old and has many good alternatives...

[@havz0r]

@@juliee593 they adamantly want to keep using it precisely because the other side wants to retire it for "cultural reasons". A natural reaction to badly-argumented change. If the arguments used were "it's an objectively bad picture, I don't think it would have been a problem

[@jeltje50]

@@havz0r and the only reason to keep it is "because we always did it so why not change". Which is a worse argument.

[@stephenriley3374]

I never realized where that picture came from. I'd seen it often, and even in some forensic science text books. I didn't realize there was even a controversy about it. Thank you for making this short documentary.

[@stylis666]

Indeed, and innocent ignorance like that very often helps perpetuate terrible and even harmful ideas because it's really easy to say we see no problems in using the image and it seems useful, making it easier to agree with arguments that are factually wrong and encouraging using bad arguments and (unknowingly) validating practices and ideas that are harmful. I found myself in such a situation when, in the US, statues of confederate leaders were in dispute. All I really knew was that those were a part of history, so I saw more reason to keep them than to take them down. What I didn't know was that those statues were completely useless in teaching anything about history and that they weren't erected to remember a dark past and the overcoming of it, but to remember and encourage the idea that white people had and still have dominance over black people. I have said publicly that I saw no problem in keeping them as an important part of history. And as innocent as that sounds, that would've been innocent if I was on of the few instead of one of the many. It's far more useful to have pictures of those statues in books and explain why they were there and why they were taken down.

[@stephenriley3374]

@@stylis666 I think I didn't make my point clear. I had no idea where this picture came from, and really I didn't care. If you look old Washington Evening Post magazines you will see just as seductive images of just as attractive women. It seems to me that the main issue here is there is an objectifying of women (really no one has a problem with the tank image). The image was to be used for process calibration of digital images. It was not intended for making women seem like objects. On top of that I would like to point out that the original picture was put out in a nationwide magazine. Anything offensive was cropped out for the digital analysis. If objectifying women is the issue it shouldn't be that the image was used for digital analysis, but that it was taken in the first place. Get mad at Playboy for taking/printing/distributing the magazine, and not for the computer scientists that were looking for an image to use. If things get boiled down to the heart of the matter, we have better images for digital processing now. The Lena image doesn't even have to be used. There should be a broadcast of all new images that make things better and easier for everyone. It wouldn't be hard to just put out a handful of new images and start from scratch. Were computer scientists creeps? Yes, and the nude women as their computer background was proof of that. Should they be shamed for objectifying women in the workplace, yes they should. Should their work be dismissed because they used a cropped image for digital processing? I would say no. Let the work stand. Let newer and better images take the place of outdated and suggestive images.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@stephenriley3374 *objectification is a nonsensical problem, they should not be shamed for using the image, it was the perfect fusion between enjoyment and also technical importance, using nude women as computer backgrounds doesn't make you a creep, and before you accuse me of doing shut, I will tell you beforehand I have black as my computer background

[@grizzoo]

Came for the periodic table, staying for your channel! Cant wait to see what you do next!

[@misterben1434]

Your videos are f*cking great, insanely informative and so well-produced. Keep on keepin' on, my man!

[@stormclawponyrises1195]

Last year I took a MATLAB introductory course as part of my university degree, and the professor used the Lena image as one of the stock images to demonstrate MATLAB’s image editing capabilities for us. Absolute shock when you revealed the image and I realised I’d seen it before in class.

[@ladislavdobrovsky8826]

how little to absolutelly shock you...

[@MyFictionalChaos]

@@ladislavdobrovsky8826 they were clearly being hyperbolic silly goose

[@ladislavdobrovsky8826]

@@MyFictionalChaos these days I'm not so sure...

[@brandonthesteele]

@@ladislavdobrovsky8826 get out more

[@meneldal]

Matlab still has Lena? I thought they removed the image from the list of automatically installed images a while back.

[@nothinglikeasongbird]

17:32 >Uses "Illiterate" as an insult >Can't spell "Incredibly"

[@keiyakins]

Honestly, my favorite argument is LenPEG2. It's an image compression algorithm that consists of two steps: 1. Is the image Lena? If so, output an empty file and end. 2. Compress the image as a standard jpeg and output it. It has perfect recreation of Lena in 0 bytes. Thus, it must be the best image compression algorithm possible, and we can end the whole field.

[@LeafyLeafbloom]

XDDDD

[@finnothy3897]

i am so happy i stumbled upon your channel, your videos are incredible. even happier to see the sentiments expressed in this video and where the revenue for this video went!

[@ellenh5468]

Okay as someone who is a female programmer now when the stereotypes have changed I've always thought that knitting and weaving use similar skills. Wild to see that this idea has been there from the beginning

[@sparksbet]

Honestly for me it feels totally different -- I do embroidery as well as programming and they don't feel that similar to me. But maybe that's just because I'm still a beginner at embroidery and I've been programming for a little while now.

[@xbvm]

@@sparksbet embroidery and pattern making for knitting are different things. If anything, embroidery is more like painting because it involves more visual intelligence, and in knitting you need logical intelligence because it's pure algorithms

[@AskZch]

hur dur stealing our yobs

[@vvolfbelorven7084]

Well there you go. Men are typically right when it comes to knitting and programming🤣

[@LordOfTheFatties]

To be honest, there's a definite through-line of logic to compare the two activities, it just came from a shiity place. That rally does make the difference sometimes.

[@Miranda-ph5dt]

Bell Labs also created the first voice song synthesis in 1961, co-programmed by John Kelly and Carol Lockbaum. The sound of the IBM 7094 singing “Daisy Bell” is a groundbreaking moment in computers that led to all sorts of technology we take for granted and it was done in part by a woman!

[@koolaid9811]

Bro your breakdowns are absolutely solid. I super dig all aspects of them. Music, tempo, precision, execution, etc. Keep it up buddy ✌️

[@plursocks]

Thank you for making this video. The further you get into your STEM career, the more sexism you get exposed to...and it's not about Lena. The Lena image is just a symptom of a much larger problem. I did my master's in a different country and decided to ask someone for help with translating the slides for the sake of my audience. During my defense, a professor asked if I translated the slides myself and when I told him "I had some help", he told me "well, tell your husband he did a good job"...I don't even have a husband and the person who helped me was a female post doc...

[@littleleakyleakythere]

@@snuurferalangur4357 misogyny is not cultural.

[@sheeplord4976]

"Using a non-sexual image of a woman is misogynistic." Stop trying to find things to get angry at. The real issue with Lena was that it was repetitive.

[@littleleakyleakythere]

@@snuurferalangur4357 if misogyny is cultural then you absolutely can demand that culture change.

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

TBH if the argument against the picture is just the fee fees of feminists who use the term "male gaze" in full seriousness, then the argument is meaningless and I think it should be replaced for something that offends them even further if it is obsolete.

[@kushine_]

Oh damn, I just thought it was a random picture of a women wearing a nice fuzzy hat. Used that image throughout my Image Processing course. Was confused at first why Lena was told to not be used. Boy oh boy that reveal was a shocker

[@DonYagamoth]

I have to admit, this video ended up being so much better than I anticipated from the thumbnail and title. I already love your other videos, so of course I was still curious

[@RaeIsGaee]

It's honestly a testament to how amazing his videos are. Unlike most creators that would've ended as soon as they gave a basic answer, Bobby develops the topic into an actual argument that challenges the viewers to think critically about gender discrimination in computer science as a whole.

[@personpersoon3332]

tbh this video was a lot worse than what i was expecting coming from bobby. i love most of his videos too, but this read like underbaked sjw propaganda

[@RaeIsGaee]

@@personpersoon3332 Being salty about a KZbinr highlighting the discriminatory attitudes present across a field doesn't mean it's a bad video.

[@personpersoon3332]

@@RaeIsGaeei don't mind that part, it's just barely related to the main subject of the video, being the lena image. and for me, that leaves it feeling underbaked. plus the women interviewed didn't seem like they really knew what they were talking about

[@RaeIsGaee]

@@personpersoon3332 The Lena Image is quite literally *The* symbol of sexism in the field of computer science. Everyone who works in image processing at least knows about the image and its origins. This is like saying the moon landing footage has nothing to do with the cold war. She is *Literally* the woman in that photo. I didn't know that you have to have a bachelors in image processing to revoke your consent to having your image plastered everywhere.

[@Yasaifex]

This channel is amazing, i cant stop binging your videos, i love niche topics like this one

[@funnyfisher7]

16:31 "How to alleviate worn-out images. Soluton number one (dramatic pause) Don't use them." 😂😂 Lol

[@ankaarne]

A note on the genderfication of computer advertisement in the 80s, the 80s marked an extreme push to gender-divide toy commercial, ads and toystores. So when the (home)computer got marked more and more as a toy it got more and more pushed as a boys only toy, Nintendo (of America) was actually a big part of pushing hometech as a boys and male only activity when they marked the NES post-ataricrash. Home computers and video games went from a family (or children of all genders) focused activity to a boys and male "only" activity in advertisement and in culter, like how Nintendo renamed the Famicom (short for family computer) to NES (nintendo entertainment system) when launching in the states.

[@craigalexander2059]

I wonder how they'd have placed the Nintendo Knitting Machine System if they ended up launching it.

[@blackblob500]

I'd personally blame the NES being a victim of the circular logic of the "video games are for boys" trend than anything else. I'd say that trend started with arcade games post Space Invaders, trickled down to game consoles like the Atari 2600, and eventually on to home computers as well (because they were generally marketed like game machines). When Nintendo launched the NES, they fell into a market that, as you said, was "it's either for boys or girls, not both!", and they went with that path of least resistance (which made sense because their software at the time was male oriented). Nintendo did try to market to girls in a semi-token fashion once they became successful, but even then the NES was still mostly marketed as a boy's toy. I think the girls hometech thing was another case of circular logic by the toy industry. As for why the Famicom was renamed NES, I think they just didn't want to call it a computer, even the original prototype NES with a keyboard and cassette drive was called the AES.

[@ankaarne]

@@blackblob500 Yeah the NES launched much later than I remembered in the states. I'd revise my statement as Nintendo oA helped cement the toys for boys-image rather than being part of creating it.

[@ankaarne]

@@blackblob500 The reason for the name change is actually something that sort of undermines the thesis in my first post. 🤣 They didn't want give the image of a computer system-toy after the Ataricrash in 83 made everyone think that video game system-market was completely dead. Also why they redesigned the look to make it more seem like a VCR with the front load to further get away from the videogame/computergame stigma they thought was deeply cemented in peoples minds.

[@DiThi]

The DMG (dot matrix game) project was named Game Boy. The console and several of its successors were not only marketed for boys. It was literally named for boys.

[@Prizzlesticks]

If Lena herself says it's time to retire the image, it is time to retire the image.

[@thesignalnotthenoise1670]

and if she still looked like 1973 Lena we might listen to her ?

[@Prizzlesticks]

@@thesignalnotthenoise1670 Come now, why would we ever listen to a woman? Hardy harr harr.

[@triumphant39]

I'm sure you don't actually believe that in principle. What if an extra who appeared in a movie demanded they be removed from the movie. Do you think they should? Do you think they actually would? I don't disagree that it shouldn't be used, but at the end of the day, she cannot undo having the images published, it can never be removed.

[@Prizzlesticks]

@@triumphant39 If that hypothetical film was over-saturating scientific papers in a field largely hostile to woman, and the extra in said film was being objectified in it, yeah. I do believe that. Especially given the original publisher of the hypothetical film, let's say PornHub or whatever, was ALSO not being paid royalties for the continued republishing of their material without consent.

[@triumphant39]

@@Coffeemancer Nah.

[@xenofe]

I really appreciate you dedicating the right type of attention to the feminist issue surrounding this image, letting women in the industry speak for themselves.

[@Encysted]

“the picture is not eliciting the response because it’s sexual, it’s eliciting the response because of the culture issue” Wow this was a way better video than I thought from the relatively click-attractive title and picture (recognizable even with the blurring). Also, thanks a bunch for bringing in other voices.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

You meen "recognizable to people familiar with image-processing." ? Because I couldn't even tell what part of a body (or bodies) it is.

[@hgbugalou]

It being a scan of printed media should be reason enough to not use it IMO. You loose so much detail by printing even with top of the line printers today, let alone in the 70s.

[@geekswithfeet9137]

The counter point to that, is that it’s an imperfect image. It’s useful for testing true feature extraction in the face of hamstrung data.

[@jack-vw8nb]

that would be the logical response, yeah. I opt for, "They could choose from thousands of images now, including photos I've taken myself."

[@jameskarl424]

Sure that is reason enough but all the added non technical bs reasons or feelings... like omg just stick to technical reasons and you have a point. otherwise nah

[@-_-_-_-_]

I think the primary reason people used it so excessively was because they found it funny. I think it became a sort of meme in the scientific community.

[@derpnerpwerp]

I started working in computer vision about 5 or 6 years ago.. takes a very small amount of time to realize that image is everywhere. I immediate recognized the downsampled version in the thumbnail. Initially I thought it was a just standard image used in the OpenCV documentation, but as I started reading papers on various neural network architectures and such I realized it was much more widespread and that it had its own wikipedia

[@averysunnyday]

I think we should replace the Lena image with goatse.

[@umangjain293]

lol

[@chrisk5985]

I had no idea about the history of women in computing jobs, thank you for shining light on it. It's amazing (and sad) how the history that's commonly taught often highlights only certain demographics.

[@goatsfluff]

One note is that it's probably taught differently in different countries. Over here that's a part of the big push to get more women into computer science; most of them were women back in the day. It's common knowledge at my institute, at least.

[@justoneoftheguys111]

Thanks for the genuinely informative lesson on the history of women in computing??? That was so interesting, makes me wanna research the history of the field more

[@WhitneyDahlin]

I think it's weird the women are upset by it?! It's just a woman's portrait. Everything else was cropped out 🙄 it's not that big a deal. Lena is super pretty and the colors and everything are perfect! I'd rather see her than monkeys or peppers or ships. I think the women interviewed are looking for a reason to be upset. Maybe they're insecure. Because I feel most women in the industry do not share their opinion.

[@thatoneperson8154]

​@@WhitneyDahlinBait

[@WhitneyDahlin]

@@thatoneperson8154 idk what that means lol

[@angelofmusic3044]

​@@thatoneperson8154Very, VERY obvious bait. Ikr

[@CLR4455]

This was so well done! Thank you

[@lalueur5802]

I'm so happy I found this channel, absolutely love the videos. Keep going

[@bjzaba]

Knowing some of the context behind the image and being unfamiliar with the channel I was expecting the worst of this video, but after finally watching it I can say that am incredibly impressed at the depth of your research, and how well you approached the issues. Hats-off for recommending “Programmed Inequality” as well - it's a great book!

[@ElR1517]

This image was in almost all of my engineering textbooks in one way or another and I never knew why. Thanks for the great explainer and for your donations. You’re a good egg, BobbyBroccoli.

[@iamdozerq]

All of this is just excuses. She is everywhere because she is cute as hell.

[@liptoncunningham6666]

That was incredible. Looking forward to more of your work, and props to donating proceeds from this doc.

[@catpaccino]

I finally watched one of your videos that KZbin kept recommending to me ("The man who tried to fake an element"), and I'm glad I did - I've been sucked in to subscribing and watching more! As a layperson who is casually interested in science but doesn't know much, I really appreciate the mix of scientific explanation and human/social perspective.