The Importance of Control Touch in flying and some thoughts on Dry Clutch | DCS World AH-64D

This video went through several iterations while I was filming so it may seem a bit disjointed. Overall though the point is to examine both control touch as well as some pitfalls and positives from using a Dry Clutch set up for DCS Helicopters.
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Hardware:
intel core i9-13900k, 64GM RAM, Zotac 4090 GPU
Joystick: VKB Gunfighter III with 20cm extension
Pedals: Virpil ACE
Throttle: Virpil Mongoose 3

[@MattWagner]

Good stuff, thanks, Casmo. We have some new FM/SCAS improvements coming very soon.

[@ZeSpektrum]

Waiting for tomorrows patch, hopefully some interesting stuff included.

[@thomascarman1276]

Asymmetric curvature and saturation would be a nice feature in axis tune, IMHO.

[@potatopilot1699]

Hey Wags! Sorry if this is off-topic but I've noticed that when the helicopter is cold and the rotors are not moving, increasing collective only changes the blade pitch angle, which is accurate but inputting stick movements physically move the rotors even though it should be impossible IRL. I can even see it is modelled correctly with other helicopters too. Just wondering if there is any fix coming soon and if it is high or low priority. Amazing updates coming through with the Apache recently anyways though!!!

[@doomsdayfriday9818]

Such an improvement with the flight model, I made a video Casmo after I watched yours. Tiny inputs is the way for sure. Keep it going mate, great video.

[@twifosp1]

Good video! The other problem with dry clutch is how long it takes to transition back to fixed wing aircraft. If someone would make a base where you could toggle it on or off with an external switch without taking it apart, that would be a game changer.

[@CasmoTV]

It really would be.

[@142nd_Bama]

Virpil cm3, takes me about 10 seconds to transition

[@VRTrucker]

​@@142nd_Bama exactly 1.5 turns of a 3mm hex per axis and you're set

[@142nd_Bama]

@@VRTruckerI loosen my spring pretension 15 turns each to go from airplane to helo. It’s still extremely fast though!

[@MisterMannIndy]

Hummmnm... I have the vkb setup with the ultimate all metal stick. Never messed with the dry clutch because I go back and forth between helo and fixed. Maybe I owe myself a test or two to see what a pita it is to dial in/out. Thanks for the video casmo!

[@Marine7011]

Had me at crotch cam

[@CasmoTV]

Spicy

[@prichardgs]

Practice? Come on Casmo! I appreciate the input tips. I had mine set in the 10 range-frequent over controller in a panic situation. Then ground kisser.

[@mr_beezlebub3985]

This looks cool as hell. Maybe I should get DCS

[@Niko-qs1sl]

Hey Casmo. Just wanted to quickly chime in, in case by some offhand you get to read this. Nyogel 767A will solve the issues you are describing. I have the WinWing SuperLibra with extensions, similar setup to yours. The grease is thick and consistent enough to make it feel like some of the real helicopters out there. The problem with dry clutches is stiction and inconsistent force requirements to overcome it and then the decrease of the required force to continue the input. This solves it. Give her a whirl, you won't regret it. Thank you for the videos and all your efforts

[@robihobby9490]

Learning by flying 👍

[@thorstenh1976]

Good summary ...i Like the Cam View ..checking your Input helps alot. Thought you are using the mongoost...😮

[@Hidden-Force]

I had a friend who flew Hueys in Vietnam and he told me that the (top of the) stick doesn't (typically) move more than the diameter of a dime. I was incredulous, but I've always kept that in mind ever since. Now am I able to keep stick movements to within a dime? HA!

[@ingemarlundgren7168]

i have a Virpil cm3 with 20cm extension with dry clutch (dead stick) and can use the hold modes just fine. You just need to use trim first and set it to "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" which was specifically designed for this. You will not feel any effect when you press trim but something happens to stabilize things a bit and also the hold modes start working.

[@CasmoTV]

I tried em all. Didn’t like it. It’s ok, I’m back to springs cause of jets.

[@bigbangerz5856]

right so I've the same setup as you and have been puzzling with this also.... If I understand correctly you get your deadstick into a stable hover (or close to it) then use Force Trim Release to tell the FMC (flight computer) where to position the Apache's servo motors and then you engage the hold modes that will add 10-15% control via the FMC servos but crucially from the trimmed position. So if you don't Force Trim Release then you will likely drift as its close to or outside the FMC/servo range? The difference being you dont have to return the stick to center and you don't observe any control changes with the FTR but what it is doing is setting the position for the FMC... I think that is right

[@TheSkipjack95]

I've been pondering how to explain to people how to be smooth with inputs, for me I think the revelation was after switching to a Virpil setup (and especially after getting the 20cm manhood compensator for it). Thinking about inputs in terms of pressure rather than movements might make it easier to understand how to handle the stick. The good ole mantra of "the best pilots move the controls the least" also diminishes tendencies to PIO by making mayonnaise with the controls while hovering or refuelling.

[@metaldetector2152]

Thanks ! I have no idea if the FM is realistic but i find the ka50 to be the easiest helo and most stable to fly.Those 20% stabilizers work just great.

[@TheGalahad78]

This is something I learnt very quickly (although not before smashing several Apaches to bits...): small corrections work waaay better than moving the stick all around. However, I still struggle with this fantastic beast and am really amazed at how smoothly you expert people fly it!

[@ryanw1433]

With Crotch Cam! That was the laugh I needed today

[@PluckyUnderdog]

Good video, also good to hear you're involved with the Kiowa testing. I watched your interview with Mover that you did a while a go, earlier today, very fascinating to learn more about your background. I'm not American, I'm British but I thank you for your service and am always humbled in the presence of people who flew military aircraft for their country, being obsessed with military aviation. Particularly the Apache, and using the IHADSS. Especially at night with the PNVS, that must've been taxing.

[@CasmoTV]

Thanks for watching. PNVS is a chore but like anything you get used to it.

[@PluckyUnderdog]

@@CasmoTV my pleasure, dude. It's always fun and interesting content. Keep it up.

[@Kevin-sg5xc]

I have the exact same stick and I didn't know I could accomplish that with the clutches. Thanks for showing me. Though, I will probably leave it self centering because I fly fixed wing as well and don't want to be constantly messing with the clutches. I need to get a collective at some point because I'm using the F18 Winwing throttle as a collective. The movements are so small for a large increase in collective pitch.

[@Tobascodagama]

This is my issue as well. I swap between rotor and fixed wing a lot, so as much as I'd like to do the springless dry clutch thing I can't justify it. (This is why we need affordable FFB to come back...)

[@142nd_Bama]

@@Tobascodagamalook into the virpil cm3, super easy to go from helo to fixed wing

[@100PercentAllAmericanMan]

You have made my day. I assumed that my stick throw was not enough so I set a larger curve. I have been fighting with the Apache since day one. I do not like the dry clutch thingy. I have a Virpil Warbird with the 75mm extension with my Hornet grip. Had a WW Orion 2 Stick. It broke. I also have the WinWing Ka-50 collective with extension. Would love to send you a picture of my pit. Thanks again. AOC(AW)retired.

[@OzDeaDMeaT]

i think the extension would make a difference to the amount of movement as well. Thnx for the vid m8

[@chrissn07]

deduction from video: I NEED AN EXTENSION!!!

[@ImpendingJoker]

With my Saitek X56 Rhino, I have the lightest spring that it comes with installed, then I have made it even lighter by using two zip ties to compress the spring a little bit. This really helps with micro movements as I don't have to fight the spring to make inputs. I think that the heavier springs are good for WWII aircraft but for modern aircraft with hydraulically boosted flight controls and fly by wire that the light springs are way better.

[@TheGalahad78]

I'm going to check my Rhino, can't remember which spring I originally installed.

[@rhysgoodman7628]

Going from the Hind to the Apache was a bit of an ass-kicker, but your videos have helped a lot. Thank you!

[@octanejimmy]

Crotch Cam, best cam.... Ty from us ground pounders lol. Thanks for the video.

[@endl3ss008]

Nice video, and informative. I'm using Virpil's CM3 with clutches, and 20 cm extension. Nyogel'ed it up a bit though, which ended up feeling very smooth. I'm still using springs though, since I also use it for fixed-wing aircraft. Still, I find the clutches dampen or smooth out any irregularities on my part. I've always been a bit twitchy on the stick, and my CM3 setup has helped a lot with that. I've used 70% saturation on the axis tune for the AH-64D....might have to revisit those settings and try with some curves.

[@aaronwhite1786]

Ohh, this is something I've been interested in. I'm hoping to upgrade my stick setup from the Thrustmaster someday. Hopefully by the time I do it, Winwing or Viripl will have dropped an Apache collective/cyclic.

[@inpayne]

You gotta try the ffb stuff man. It’s a game changer for helicopters. Having the force trim is huge.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

This guy totally deserves a priority ticket in the VPforce waiting line. That thing looks promising and is half a grand less than the Brunner which would require Viagra to keep going especially with extensions...

[@Honosuseri]

Appreciate all the content you do Casmo! I've been doing this since day 1 with the Apache. I have VKB's Gladiator NXT EVO a cheaper flight stick, which also has the dry clutch mechanism. In the early days I don't think the SCAS and hold modes were properly implemented in DCS. So I preferred using the dry clutch than constantly trimming but now with the SCAS it seems to want to be trimmed by design. Hopefully now you've drawn attention to this ED can do some patches and improvements. Keep up the great work!

[@King2Stone]

That’s a killer stick for the price.

[@Honosuseri]

@@King2Stone Yeah I'm in the UK so it's not cheap cheap (like the budgie), I think in the united states it's more affordable though. I have it paired with an Orion 2 throttle and very happy with the combo!

[@hidayatoceandar5004]

Small movement ...... until one SA-15 missile coming at you lol

[@142nd_Bama]

I would highly suggest no dead zone for quality hotas. The way to test is pull up the controls in dcs and gently move the stick around center, if the ball jitters raise the dead-zone, if it doesn’t the dead-zone isn’t needed. It’s a much better experience!

[@CasmoTV]

🤷🏻‍♂️ I highly suggest people use whatever works for them.

[@ascherlafayette8572]

​@CasmoTV But if they don't do exactly what I say then how will they have fun?

[@142nd_Bama]

@@CasmoTV just offering some advice from one enthusiast to another. In my experience in dcs moving the stick and the aircraft not responding leads to a lot of pio…

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

@@142nd_Bama Absolutely, dead zones literally are deal breakers. They're a remnant of the past when joysticks had bad pots that kept spiking after a while (Logitech left the chat.). You simply don't want to have that area of nothing happens and then the input suddenly kicking in. The real thing doesn't have that either and it's highly counter-intuitive. BTW this is the reason why I don't fly the Gazelle, as it has a hard coded deadzone in the cyclic controls, at least as long as the FFB enabled thing is ticked in the option, which obviously should be the case if you got such a stick. It's literally just uncredibly horriful. Feels like I'm WASDing the thing, not gonna lie. I don't have a stick because I'd prefer to be a Chair Force Keyboard Warrior instead :D To be fair, if someone else might be OK with that and has gotten used to it, it's totally fine and it's always great to have the options.

[@Fox3Hammy]

Great video Casmo! I need to invest in to a extension and base like nobody’s business

[@Mak10z]

man, I wish there was an low - mid end FFB solution. gorram patent trolls. having a whirlybird FFB stick would be a godsend for rotorcraft

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

You're not alone! My daily driven stick is old enough to be allowed to buy booze in the US already...

[@garethroberts9223]

Crotch Cam! LOL! Great work as always - How's the new rig?

[@CasmoTV]

Blazing

[@steeltribe3967]

Great video. Please keep them coming. I love the KA-50 but am starting to really get into the Apache. I have been searching for a how-to for your stick setup, I have the same one, but can't find one can you point me in the right direction, please.

[@CasmoTV]

I have a video about that somewhere, look around in my list around when the Apache came out.

[@ComdrStew]

Force Feed Back would be the best option. Not sure which rudder pedals you have, but I have the Trustmaster TPR pedals with a motorcycle damper on it and no spring. I have the pressure set like brake pedals. You can set them and leave them in that position also.

[@AndrewH2791]

I have the vkb gladiator with the clutch and it was so alien when I removed the springs and just used the clutch but after a couple of sessions I couldn't go back even for fixed wing.

[@admiki9808]

One thing that does not work with cyclic sticks that don't return to center is curvature. It works around center (because it was intended for spring joysticks), but you are almost never in center when flying helicopter.

[@CasmoTV]

Disagree but it’s whatever. Y’all do whatever works best for ya.

[@scarletlightning565]

I have the Winwing Libra base and FA18 stick, variable extension at min (about 10cm). I love flying the huey with no springs, just clutches. Im so much smoother like that. But the Apache i keep overcontrolling if i have that setup. I can manage if i work hard, but i cant then smoothly use the cyclic switches because with how heavy the Winwing switches are (normally a great thing), it knocks the stick ever so slightly every time. So i prefer the apache with springs and force trim for pretty much everything, but the huey is world more enjoyable with only clutches

[@gwalker3092]

I have side stick setup for fighter aircraft ,so I don’t have the benefit of centre position or extension. It’s ok but not ideal. Just have live with it and learn. Thx for curves mine atm are much lower 😢

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

This just shows again how important FFB on a stick base is. But the manufacturers of such hardware proactively decided that there's no market for that, which sucks.

[@KomradeDoge]

You mentioned that you were really having to constantly apply pressure to your stick in the Kiowa, does it not have any kind of force trim (either irl or in game)?

[@SPFLDAngler]

Yeah my HOTAS ain’t ever gonna let me do fine movements.

[@SPFLDAngler]

Yes I have curves and deadzones set up. I’ve tried curves of 15-25-35-45 and I even tried 60 once.

[@dylman5744]

Something wich is crazy (at least for me) is that I was able to shoot all 16 hellfires after 3 or 4 days because i have to focus so much more in the Apache than in any other airplanes!

[@mcgherkinstudios]

Is it just me or does the Apache’s attitude hold really struggle with low altitude hovering? I get the aircraft dead steady, hit force trim to reset everything, engage attitude hold and half the time within 30 seconds it’s taking off across the scenery.

[@grzmz]

I upgraded to the Virpil CM3 Base some month ago specifically for this but just today i thought about giving up on it because of the inability to actually use the hold modes for hover. Just can't do it....and that's really so frustrating. I also was completly baffled because it never came to my mind to set curves on my collective (throttle in my case though). Doesn't that make it even more difficult to hover if you are heavily loaded since the collective is than more in the max region than the center?

[@ziljanvega3879]

I would suggest User defined curves rather than the % curve, otherwise you’ll over ramp the collective at the beginning and end of the throw causing annoying error messages, excessive yaw wobble and potentially even dangerous instability from sudden torque changes

[@ColonelAkirNakesh]

How does the CM3 work with other helos? (Hind, Huey etc?)

[@grzmz]

@@ziljanvega3879 Yeah, that's what i thought, too. Never tried user defined curves though since it seems even more confusing to me because it neither is linear nor logarithmic.

[@grzmz]

@@ColonelAkirNakesh Can't say because i don't own them. Just some days ago i flew the ka-50 for the first time since the Apache came out and that seemed to go pretty well. After yesterday's patch i'm back to the Apache now. Flying feels way better now but i don't know if the hover mode issue can be solved.

[@grzmz]

Update: With the new patch and after setting my curves to 25% i'm now actually able to get into hover hold mode with the cm3.

[@markturner6091]

Hey Casmo, good video, I have a similar set up. What joystick trim settings are you using with yours ? I also have removed the springs and fitted a damper to my crosswind rudders, so all the controls effectively have no centre return. What would you recommend for this (and why!) and I also find as the stick stays where I put it, I don’t really use trim…..what about you and again, why? Many thanks!

[@markturner6091]

Of course, there is also the discussion around curves and degrees of movement required on the stick. I find on my other simpit set up which is for the DCS jets, using a Brunner FFB base, that more granularity is good, it’s easier to be precise with the micro movements needed if they are not measured in millimetres or less …….. of course there is a cut off point as well!

[@tortordenful]

Any reason why you aren't using the Controls overlay ? (R-Ctrl+Return in DCS) "Crotch cam" works great but with the overlay you can also see various bits like physical position, vs trimmed position and even what the stabiliser systems are doing as well pedals, collective and the engine throttles all up in a rather nice display. I don't mean instead of anything, but can be a very nice addition as I'm sure we can't see to well what you are doing with your feet there etc.

[@Gunfreak19]

in an ideal world FFB would be affordable and well working and all this trim stuff could just be forgotten, and everyone could just get helicopter trim that works as the real thing.

[@550stanley]

Thank you for the video. Have you had a chance to try a force sensing joystick? I got one from WinWing their Orion 2 and I think force sensing is the way to go, especially for the helicopters. I've been flying with another force sensing joystick that I've built myself in MSFS and jumped into DCS only a month or so ago, as such I have very limited experience. However, even with the fact that I still crash during the landing, pretty much two times out of three in the multiplier due to the stress of being shot at, what you are saying about over-correcting the aircraft is greatly mitigated by the force sensing joystick. Instead of a physical deflection of the stick in degrees, I feel it in grams and kg that I have to push to keep the aircraft moving and to my brain that starts to equate to the weight of the aircraft itself as well as allow for a very fine control when needed. To me that greatly reduces the tendencies to over-correct. WinWing's joystick unfortunately is not great in how it is setup to utilize their force sensor, you either get a large mechanical dead zone if you use only force sensor, or a weird blend of input signal if you use the combined mode. I had to modify mine, but now its pretty great. Not representing winwing or anything, bought it with my own money and as I said their implementation is not great so it needs further modification in my opinion. Just wanted to say that there is an additional option of the force sensing, if you are interested in exploring that.

[@gigas27]

I don't get it....why would you use trim on a dry clutch setup? Is trim to hold the controls on place? Isn't that what the dry clutch does anyways?

[@CasmoTV]

That’s not how the FMC works. You can’t “cheat” the system. The challenge of our real and virtual worlds colliding.

[@surfman88]

Fixed trim goes wrong too often here. This might be something ty

[@valentin_bunin]

What do you think on new AGM-114L? People claim that they miss a lot with it, and there are already some believable explanations like the one that it should be shot from hover only when using TADS, due to the target info being written to the missile doesn't contain any actual coordinats but rather angle speed and range to target I formation. I was wondering if it's true or not.

[@smallstheamish595]

May have missed it, but with the use of the trimmer, how does that work considering the clutch is already holding the stick in place? It acts almost as if force trim is disabled all of the time by nature of this cyclic setup. If only there were affordable cyclics that had a trimmable force gradient on the market...

[@shadowbob4183]

It still tells the SCAS "this is where my stick is now centered" for lack of a better technical explanation. It is also required to reset the SCAS system in the event it becomes saturated. The part of the setup we are missing, is that in the real aircraft when you move the stick without holding the trim interrupt it will return to the position it started with. When you trim it to a new position, it will always return to that position unless you hold the trim interrupt again. A force feedback stick like the VPForce Rhino can replicate this, but no traditional spring stick can, even with dry clutches. I'm no professional, just an armchair pilot like most of us, but generally I hold the trim interrupt through transitional phases of flight like accelerating / decelerating (OR bump it once I'm set). I trim to the speed I want to be flying in level flight in either aerodynamic or nose tail trim depending on what I'm doing. From there, I will make course corrections / turns / altitude adjustments as needed without trimming and return to my target speed in level flight without trimming so long as I don't want my cruise speed to change. This generally puts my physical stick pretty close to where the SCAS currently thinks the "center" is as well. I'm sure Casmo can probably explain it better, but I hope that helps some! (And if I'm doing it way wrong, please correct me Casmo!)

[@smallstheamish595]

@@shadowbob4183 Yeah, I didn't consider the SCAS system in all of this. In DCS with my equipment, it's goofy and often an afterthought. The aircraft I usually fly don't have a sas or SCAS that screams at you unlike the Apache so it never crossed my mind.

[@shazam-253]

So what I haven't fully understood is why you would need the force trim within DCS, if you already have the clutches in the stick? Shouldn't you already have everything from the stock and only set the joystick to ffb without springs in the settings? I from my understand, on the real aircraft you would use the trim button to tell it the new center position to keep the stick there, which you already have in your vipril without pushing the trim switch

[@admiki9808]

You don't need it in Huey or Mi-8. but you do need it in Apache and Mi-24. I don't fly Ka-50, so I don't know how it works. In Apache you are telling FMC what you want it to do. In Mi-24 you are using trim to reset AP channels to your new position.

[@lukasmilacek3257]

I have same experience of not being able to use hold modes with my FFB joy (Logitech G940)

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Same, not exactly easy to keep them enabled on my FFB2 either. ED really should add an option for allowing a little more movement before they get disabled, even if that might not portray the real thing. I mean, having a trim reset doesn't either. Or using a figher jet's grip and a split throttle instead of a collective... ;)

[@DanielDrake]

See about getting a VPForce RHINO Forcefeedback Stick Base

[@ssgnecktie3650]

What trim mode were you using?

[@rsvpilot72]

The no spring/dry clutch setup didn't sit well in my pit and I un-made those changes after only maybe 3hrs of flight.
 Human physiology is such that we can detect and feel very minute changes in pressure through the pads of our feet and hands. 
 A design feature so to speak.
 We physically cannot detect distance or throw with nearly the same degree of accuracy.
 Move your hand 2.34 inches, or your foot 123mm exactly from the floor. Any accuracy is difficult to achieve and takes great effort to replicate. 
But, if we associate those movements with pressure and time, we can precisely and consistently nail the gnats ass.
 I guess a long way of saying that removing springs and using dry clutches in this fashion may positionally mimic helicopter controls somewhat, but I think without FFB this does not do us any favors in the simulator.

[@therocinante3443]

Agreed, in fact I had a Realsimulator FSSB and although I thought helos would be out of the question with it, it turned out I was able to fly every aircraft with a much much greater level of control. That's because it's similar to a real f-16 stick, where there is almost no movement and control becomes a matter of finger pressure rather than actual movement.

[@gregpruitt1647]

What is a dry clutch? Can you detail the dry clutch in another video?

[@CasmoTV]

Probably not something I’m gonna make a video about but I’m sure someone has. Essentially it’s removing springs and tightening things down so the controls move and stay put.

[@mumblerinc.6660]

Rhino FFB base, dew it Anakin!

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Casmo genuinely should get a promo sample. We need to spread the word.

[@shadowbob4183]

The Rhino is awesome, but it is currently definitely in the "early adopter" stage and not built to last. Many people aren't willing to pay that premium for something with external gears to get caught on things and large amounts of 3d printed parts.

[@mumblerinc.6660]

@@shadowbob4183 …lighten up Francis, that was obviously a joke. You’re dead wrong on it not being built to last though.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

@@shadowbob4183 Fair enough, it sure has to mature.

[@shadowbob4183]

@@mumblerinc.6660 Definitely not lol... I know of several that are non-functional now.

[@josemalbran2815]

hi how is your base mounted?

[@PFpants]

What do you think of dry clutch without a stick extension? I don't think my vkb gladiator supports extensions, but I can clutch it down.

[@CasmoTV]

Never tried it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@AndrewH2791]

I use this stick with no springs with the clutch set just tight enough to stop it moving on its own.

[@TheoreticalApex]

So wait are you saying that the Kiowa doesn’t have force trim?

[@CasmoTV]

No but I’m saying you don’t really fly with it and you certainly don’t fly it the same way as the Apache. It’s more like the Huey

[@TheoreticalApex]

@@CasmoTV Ah okay that makes sense. I was just thinking if there was no trim that it would get exhausting fighting the springs like you said in the video.

[@gregpruitt1647]

Great video Casmo. If you are using an extension for your VKB, can you do a video and describe the benefits of the longer stick. Yeah, I know the pun.

[@ErikScott128]

Control curves don't make any sense to me if the stick doesn't have a center position (this applies to the collective as well). I want the control gradient to be the same regardless of where I am in the control space. Seems like the hold mode problem is a DCS issue, not your issue. Have you tried adding grease to the clutches? That may give it a more damped feel.

[@CasmoTV]

My comment regarding curves has zero percent to do with dry clutch. Not an ounce. I’ve constantly run curves and I’ve consistently seen instant improvement to people’s flying when they do. But y’all do you.

[@ErikScott128]

@@CasmoTV strictly speaking, you're right, they're independent. What I'm referring to is how one complements the other. To me, the purpose of curves is to artificially desensitize the controls around the center detent. We do the same thing on our fly-by-wire aircraft in the industry (we call it "stick shaping" rather than "curves"). If there is no center detent, this no longer makes any sense since the flat part of the curve is no longer centered about any discernable point. I can still see it having some benefits as the stick should still be in a roughly centered position in hover, where you want fine-grain control. Still, control response should be fairly linear to stick inputs. I will admit I'm letting my own biases in here. Most stick manufacturers (virpil, vkb, etc) get the force-vs-displacement relationship completely backwards. They have a shallow slope in the center and steeper slope at the extents. Ideally, you want that slope to be constant: ie, the force-vs-displacement curve should be linear. It's not unreasonable to shallow out the slope near the extents however so that you retain can still feel the forces near the center, but aren't totally exhausted near full deflection. In my opinion, people *think* they like the feel of what manufacturers are giving them (shallow slope in the center, steep at the extents) but then compensate by dialing up the curves in-game such that the force-vs-roll-rate or force-per-g is roughly linear. Personally, I don't use curves at all (except on ministicks like for the TDC). I use the cosmosim cams in my Virpil base, which I've found are the most linear without an obnoxious breakout force (they actually have no breakout force at all). I would prefer if they had a slight crisp breakout force, but I found I can pretty comfortably fly anything with no curves applied ingame. I recognize, however, that not everyone is flying with the same hardware, but to me, the use of curves indicates that your hardware is not stiff enough and not providing the correct feel.

[@andyrudeseal6347]

I've been thinking about doing this, have a MCG Ultimate, 10cm extension with 20lbers center mounted on a Blackbird chair. One thing holding me back is that I also play Star Citizen and not sure how that is gonna feel lol......and my understanding is that you have to disassemble the base to set the clutches? If it was easily adjusted from the outside I might be more inclined to do it.

[@CasmoTV]

Yeah I have the same concerns. I’m not sure it’s a keeper for me.

[@doifeellucky]

CM3 Virpil base can set clutch and spring tension externally but I’m still on the fence. With sufficient clutch for a dead stick it feels overly stiff to me. I have the Alpha Prime on a 200mm extension.

[@142nd_Bama]

@@doifeelluckymy cm3 is super light when rigged for deadstick. How’s do you have your spring tensioned?

[@doifeellucky]

@@142nd_Bama Pretty stock at the moment, but I loosened them as far as they’d go before they were impacting on the rubber cover. I need to try so other springs and cams at some point. I also need to use for fixed wing so couldn’t rely only on the clutches.

[@andyrudeseal6347]

@@CasmoTV I wound up doing this 3 days ago, I tightened the clutches down, but it's not enough to hold the stick in place. But the big thing is that it takes more force than I'd like to "break" the friction on the clutches so I wind up putting in too much movement. But I do like the dampening effect because small movements I make like adjusting myself in the chair don't translate as much through the stick. Have you kept your setup or reverted it back to non-dampening?

[@HeloHounds]

Looks like you took down your dislike of the new flight model video because of the weird role it has on take off. I don't know if anyone else has this issue but I've found lately the trim is set to one side or the other (randomly) so now the first thing I do is reset the trim and it seems to have alleviated that weird role on take off it has.

[@CasmoTV]

I didn’t recant a thing I said. Still don’t like the new FM for the roll. Said it in both videos.

[@HeloHounds]

@@CasmoTV never said you recanted, I just can't find the video you made specifically on that subject.

[@CasmoTV]

@@HeloHounds ah. Idk it’s there somewhere.

[@HeloHounds]

@@CasmoTV the whole reason for my post was to let you know what I've found recently is all. i.e. the trim being randomly set on spawn.

[@therflash]

I can't recommend any curves in helis in general, especially not on collective. A tiny bit may not hurt, although I can't see how that would be very beneficial either, especially with clutches. Curves make the center of your throw more precise and less sensitive, but it's at the expense of the outer edges being more sensitive and less precise. Sort of like a fisheye lense effect on your stick axes. Unless you keep the helo trimmed to stay within the precise center all the time, you aren't going make the flight more precise. With cams and dry clutches, the whole idea is that you don't need to trim. So, in a forward flight you're going to spend lot of time in that weird region where your pitch forward is more sensitive than pitch back, same with roll if you keep the stick biased laterally. Although, with heavy springs and no clutch, you will need to fight the springs a lot more towards the edges, making your hand less precise, so paradoxically a *negative* curve may actually make more sense in this case. Same thing with the collective, you're just turning a linear motion non-linear, where an inch of extra collective near the edges is going to give you a lot more power than an inch of collective near the center. But hovering needs different amounts of collective than forward flight at various speeds, so, you won't have the collective in the center the majority of the time. I don't want to tell you how to fly, for each their own, I just want to point out that the stick curves make a lot more sense for a trimmed airplane, where we want lot of precision near the center of the stick and we don't care that much about precision in big maneuvers, so, for a small stick with little throw, axes are a good band-aid tool. Saturation X ignores part of your throw. It can be used for example on a throttle with detents, if you have a physical detent on your throttle but you're flying an airplane without any AB, then by default, you'd have to lift the throttle over the detents to get to full power. So, you can use Saturation X as a limiter, therefore you don't need to lift the detents if you want mil power, and if you do lift it over the detents anyway, it does nothing. The area above your detents will be ignored. Saturation Y is used to ignore part of the airplane throw. To my knowledge, this is only used by people who fly exclusively aerobatics and formations, who want as much precision as possible and literally never do any big maneuvers. It's again a limiter, but the other way around. You can use it to greatly improve the precision of small maneuvers at the expense of literally being physically unable to do big maneuvers. Deadzone ignores stick input around the center of the stick, it's again a clutch for sticks that input fake inputs or wobble near the middle. Although, in your case, if you trim and put the stick to the center, it may allow you to get to the autohover easier.

[@CasmoTV]

You shouldn’t be at the edges with helicopters so that shouldn’t matter. And I have to disagree. Curves have an immediate impact on every single student I’ve worked with.

[@therflash]

@@CasmoTV Well, if you don't trim, you would be quite far forward on your stick in a forward flight, may well be outside of the middle circle that has enhanced precision, and out in the outskirts that have reduced precision. And again, for each their own. If it helps the students, that's great, I can see how curves could help some people on some hardware, assuming you keep the helo reasonably trimmed. I was more commenting in relation to your hotas, since you have an extended VKB stick with clutches and a long collective, so I can't personally see the point of the curves in that situation, even though the curves you have are fairly small anyway. Again, please don't take this as criticism, there's nothing wrong with using curves, I just wouldn't personally make a universal recommendation for curves for everyone, since curves have tradeoffs. I'd rather have people have a good understanding what do the curves and saturations actually do so they make their decision, and if they decide that the tradeoff is worth it, be it.

[@sillysic]

I play with no extension. I had to push the curvature to around 30 AND lower the saturation, and as you say I do lose some (quite a bit) of the movement range. But its helped me immensely with keeping smooth movement which I have found otherwise really really tough to do on a stock warthog stick. Virpil setup looks very interesting!

[@ImpendingJoker]

Using the Saitek X56 Rhino, I have no option for an extension as I haven't found anyone that makes them, however I fly with the lightest spring installed and no curves and only a small null zone in each axis.

[@valuedhumanoid6574]

I was like a pig on roller skates when I first started out with the Apache. It was ugly. Here's what I found to transition to a smooth operator. Tune your axis to YOUR inputs, not what you see others do. Too many videos that say to set your axis to 15 and invert and yada yada yada...worthless. Then get a stick that you can adjust the tension. I was using a Thrustmaster stick that is stiffer than a...well...you know. Stiff. No real helicopter has a self centering stick and it is hurting your inputs. I have an old Saitek that has the spring and I took some side cutters and snipped off a little at a time until it's like the stick you see Casmo using here. A little tension to keep it from flopping around is all you want. And the last trick is to get good with the trimmer. Once you fly the Apache enough, you will know how it will react when you start adding collective. Trim it out before you even get there. All the sudden when, depending on your weight, you get wheels off the ground, it will just sit there. Same when landing. Once in ground effect, you can hover there until you run out of fuel if you like if your trim is right. And lastly, practice. Forget about missions and shooting and all the tactical stuff at first. Take off, hover, scoot left, right, back, forward, hover, go up another 10 feet, repeat and set it back down. Until you can do that with ease, don't even consider fighting. Airmanship before all. Once you get that down, play with wind speed, elevations, temperatures, light load, heavy load...you get the picture. Then do it at night. THAT is another world. What little depth perception you had will evaporate with viewing the world through night vision and the TADS. This all sounds like a shit ton of work, but it's what is needed to be able to land on a frigate at night at max weight. And my last bit is don't get frustrated. I know, easy to say, hard to execute.

[@mecampbell30]

I know they said nothing changed but ever since the late May update the flight behavior of the Apache seems to have improved again (even the hold modes). Less crazy rolling. I still think something is wrong with the trim ball because it seems wrong that you can be way out of trim at high forward speed in a bank.

[@ImpendingJoker]

See? This is why I keep saying that people should be learning to fly on the Huey or Mi-8 before trying to master the Apache. Learn the fundamentals in one of those where there are no fancy systems to save your butt, and the only thing you have to do is fly the helicopter and monitor your Ts and Ps. Learning to fly helicopters in the Apache is like learning to drive in a Formula 1 car. You're gonna have a bad time.

[@maxvogan8183]

Real helicopter pilots rest their Cyclic arm on their leg to make small wrist movements

[@rickytikki1]

great stuff hey could you make a video where u dont use $20,000 worth of equipment. i pretty sure the majority of people dont have setups like this. Its nice but you are literally teaching 5 people out of the 28k subs

[@CasmoTV]

Yeah buddy I’ll go ahead and uh run down to radio shack and throw together a potato and play it for you. Like is this a serious post?

[@godseykj]

Lol. Dude...its a stick, collective, and pedals. Pretty much the bare necessities for trying to fly somewhat realistic. Either way....the theory applies to even keyboard flying.