The Impossible Task of Measuring Who the NHL's Best Defensemen Are

[@deansmith6593]

Fans have been wanting an award for defesive defenseman for years. Easy win for the NHL if they decide to do that.

[@klompsauce]

The Niklas Lidstrom Award

[@boombadoomba14]

@@klompsauceRod Langway award

[@Darrakkii]

the erik karlsson award

[@Darrakkii]

the connor mcdavid award

[@mahockey3]

​@@Darrakkiiyeah no

[@AnEnemyAnenome]

So many people remember the big goal, no look pass, or monstrous hit. Not many remember how well positioned you are, what lanes you shut down, your effort to back check to turn that 2v0 into a 2v1. So much of what a great defensemen does is overlooked because it's not flashy and doesn't show up on a scoresheet. It's why my favorite player is Pavel Datsyuk (I get it not a D but one of the best 2-way forwards to ever play), he had the flash and the intelligence to know when to use it and when to shut down an offense.

[@klompsauce]

Absolutely, I’m a little older(I’m assuming) so my Pavel Datsyuk is Sergei Fedorov, best two way forward I’ve had the pleasure of watching, Scotty Bowman, the HC Goat, gave 91 shifts on defense, and everyone said that if it would’ve been full time, he would’ve won the Norris, however, with what you’re saying about positioning and such, Niklas Lidstrom was the best D man ever, he would lock down your best forward, could QB the powerplay and was almost never out of position. LGRW 🐙🐙🐙🐙

[@RIPJimmyA7X]

And what you just said is why I have Slavin and Toews ranked way higher than most people, both players are like black holes to opposing chances

[@blackenedmagic888]

I love that you mentioned positioning - something, as you stated, not a lot of people pay much attention to. It's that ability which allows defensemen with a distinct lack of footspeed (i.e.: Bogosian of Tampa Bay) to stay as long in the NHL as they have. Speed definitely helps, but you don't always need it if you very rarely get caught out of position.

[@HarrisonHollers]

Zetterberg was also as good a two way Center too right? I feel like he’s even more underrated

[@AFPJ]

5. Every 4. NHL Defenseman 3. Has 2. Unique talents 1. Cale Makar

[@MasterBruce1984]

I am MasterBruce, and I approve this message

[@keith96969]

5. All 4. Dman 3. Suck 2.Besides 1. John Klingberg

[@lelouchvibritannia4028]

​​@@keith96969 5. Who 4. the 3. fk 2. is 1. a nobody like him compared to Cale?

[@keith96969]

@@lelouchvibritannia4028 True puck knowers know the greatest of John Klingberg

[@Truth_or_Jer]

⁠@@keith96969I guess 32/32 NHL GMs aren’t true puck knowers since none of them have been willing to sign him to a multi-year deal for years now…..

[@AnUnlikelyAthlete]

I am a bit of a homer, but when I look at your list, right now and maybe very rarely, only one player really stands up to the entire list, Cale Makar. Which explains why he is often considered a generational player, he checks all the boxes with limited negatives both offence and defence.

[@blakewaters1995]

It's Cale Makar. Case closed.

[@romaliop]

Scoring points is one thing, defending is another thing. But the one thing that really defines a great defenseman like nothing else, is the breakout. You can be an offensive defenseman or a defensive defenseman, it doesn't really matter as long as you're either facilitating your team scoring or preventing the other team from scoring. But to be able to consistently break out cleanly will elevate everyone else on the ice significantly and you can do that up to 30 minutes per game. That's something that actually decides games in the long run.

[@adriane7841]

Brent Seabrook was a great Defensive defenseman and Duncan Keith was an offensive defenseman. Part of the reason blackhawks were so dominant

[@aarutuno]

Cale Makar. You wouldn't trade him for any defenseman in the league but you would trade any defenseman for him. That's the measure.

[@Cherdenkov]

Would you trade Bedard for Crosby? Obviously not. But does that mean Bedard is bettee than Crosby? Obviously not. Makars value is to a large part his contract and age.

[@christyouredumb956]

@@Cherdenkovsee but a lot of the dmen getting compared are the same age group, not 15+ years apart. Would you trade crosby for anyone else in the league in 2009 would be the same comparison. You can’t compare to generations.

[@bdeitur]

Regarding who they play with, a good example is on the Rangers... i.e. IMHO , as good as Fox is, he's even better because he plays with Lindgen.

[@loganreifsnider3182]

Absolutely agree ☝️🔵⚪️🔴

[@sophiejune4515]

I feel like some teams and fans don't understand how young defensemen take longer to develop than other positions and how vital it is to learn at the NHL level, they have to allowed to make mistakes to grow. One way I personally measure a good defenseman is by how well a guy sticks up for their goalies. Not just backing them up with block shots but clearing out rebounds and making sure nobody touches them in those situations where their covering the puck.

[@Inkwelder]

Great video and coverage of the topic! You hit so many of the major points and considerations, thank you! Giveaways and takeaways should be fan tracked at this point.

[@ShaunBowm]

Also shot blocking, a sub category for me is the box out ( can be physicality) where a great dman doesn't allow the offensive player any play incl a stick for a deflection or distraction to goalie Shot blocking subtle art, where if you are shot blocking you stop the shot or puck is way off target.....because if you don't block it -----you are an effective screen for the shot

[@shellysmith1037]

fans want magic defensemen. Never miss a block, never fall, never miss a check.

[@jmarx3943]

Your comments on sheltered minutes reminds me of former flyer Andrej Mezaros (might have butchered the spelling). When he was on the team's 2nd D pair, he had some excellent numbers, but when he was given tougher minutes he all of a sudden looked like a fish out of water. Good points all around, HG.

[@therealandonlyadam]

Quinn Hughes hasn't been on the ice for a goal against in the first 5 games of the year with a 3-2 record. His game somehow gets better every year.

[@Hudoba4]

I think he's gonna be better than dahlin to

[@bradyveltin9048]

Nah that streak was broken last night and He’s already better than Dahlin

[@rickross9170]

Hughes has always been better than dahlin

[@BoyNamedSue4]

Somewhere in the wilds of Canada. Don Cherry is saying that is no Bobby Orr.

[@tsholts5173]

I played a decent amount of Rocket League for a few years, and I always felt like I played better in the defensive zone than on offense. I'd also sometimes dribble the ball into the offensive zone, but that was usually about it for me lol. It's why I've gravitated more towards defensive and 2-way d-men with having good defensive positioning, blocking shots and passes, getting the puck away from the goalie, and even throwing maybe throwing smartly timed hits here and there (sometimes people throw themselves out of the play missing a hit just like missing bumps and demolitions)

[@markhodge7]

Based on the criteria for the Norris over the last few decades, it should be changed to a new Bobby Orr Trophy and the Norris should be awarded to the Best Defensive Defenceman. For example, Robinson wins the Bobby Orr while Savard wins the Norris. 2 Hall of Famers that played together but with 2 different roles.

[@BigDal542]

I mean, it's Makar

[@tdfmtig]

It’s impossible because a defenseman on a bad team is going to have worse defensive stats than a defenseman on a good team

[@maxrates]

Everyone knows Karlsson isn't the best defenseman, so why did they give him the Norris? Points shouldn't be everything

[@JustBrowsing777]

But defensemen play offense too. People seem to think defenders only play defense. Hello 👋

[@maxrates]

@@JustBrowsing777 But a defensemen that can't defend is a specialist, not the best all-around.

[@JustBrowsing777]

@NHLArmchairGm a defensemen "who can't defend" wouldn't play in the NHL

[@romaliop]

Because muh 100 points. He broke all the records for shit defense last season, but muh 100 points.

[@maxrates]

@@romaliop He got a lot of points and sacrificed a lot of goals against to do it.

[@AndyLong]

Great job. More people need to realize the nuance involved in this debate.

[@klauskostas7528]

As a huge Bobby Orr fan who still believes that he was the greatest defenseman of all time and it's not even close imo, I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I cannot name a single regular defense partner he played with. I can say the same for Robinson, Potvin, Park, Coffey, Bourque, Vadnais. I can easily see Makar being mentioned in the same vein in the not too distant future. Should the Norris trophy be solely based on statistics? Great video, thanks

[@Truth_or_Jer]

This all makes sense, but damn is Toews a great dman who compliments Makar well. I, along with the Avs front office evidently, will not be forgetting his name any time soon.

[@vurtch]

Great video

[@The_Room_2_Doggys_Revenge]

to me, the most important factor is who has the most flashy skate laces

[@BlakeWheelersBurnerAccount]

I feel like there should be a stat for zone clears during PK. Also, can we talk about how a shot that hits the post/crossbar does not count as a shot ON GOAL?

[@jefflarson1652]

SOG is pretty much a goalie stat. If he doesn't need to make a save, it doesn't matter.

[@Realistic316]

how about defensemen that actually make good defensive plays?… like breaking up a player… getting the puck away from him

[@RIPJimmyA7X]

It almost has to be by eye test, personally i watch Makar and hes just on a different level than anyone else in the league

[@probablysam2744]

No way, the future best defenceman of all time is on a different level??? Who could ever tell!!!!

[@jefflarson1652]

@@probablysam2744 No way Makar is ever touching Orr. It isn't even close. Orr is not only the best defenseman ever, but also regarded as one of the top 3 players ever.

[@andrew6815]

​@@jefflarson1652He is currently on pace to do it while still not having hit his prime yet. Makar has a long way to go but he's on pace to do it so it's not so crazy.

[@jefflarson1652]

@@andrew6815 On pace to do what? Be better than Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, or even McDavid, Matthews, Ovechkin, Crosby. You need to be the best player of your era to even have a shot at being the best of all-time. Just say you never saw Orr play.

[@andrew6815]

@@jefflarson1652 being better than Orr. Statistically. And there are quite a few people that make the argument that he IS the best player currently playing. Exhibit a: pantsing macdavid in the playoffs to advance to the SC, winning the SC and the Conn Smythe. I'm just saying it's possible. You're arguing quite strongly that it's not dispute him having more points in less games.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

offense zone entries maintaining possession plus defense zone entries take away possession?

[@shanielcabral]

You should make a list of your BEST players vs your FAVORITE players

[@kurtwpg]

This got me looking at TOI in this short sample size, see what the line is for overworked and who is across it. The expectation: Darnell Nurse The reality: Drew Doughty is the only guy I found over 26 minutes.

[@kuningaskolassas4720]

The utterly unfounded, and unassailably unshakable confidence the Oilers have in Nurse is equal parts hilarious and heartwarming.

[@HarrisonHollers]

What statistics are there to distinguish good and bad defensemen? Do blocked shots and hits matter? Plus/Minus only matters in the context of a player on their given team.

[@andrew6815]

It's pretty easy at the top: It's makar. Now what makes 2 through 10?

[@thebigbucktheory5488]

This is also a means of fantasy relevance some players are good in fantasy and not in real life and vice versa. Coaches, systems, And deployment.

[@guillaumeturcotte4523]

I like gap management and transition number

[@dsc4178]

If you can help your team score and also prevent the other team from scoring, you are a good D man. If you can score yourself and do the other two, you are a great D man. Then do you play in any and all situations? Leafs need the second one, score, effective on D, drive scoring, do it all situations..

[@luclabrecque6662]

I believe the only group that can answer that question is the NHL goaltenders, just give them a scenario like, the game is 2-2, faceoffs in your zone 40 secondes left in the game CHOOSE any 2 defense men in the league to be in front of you, now to score them, if a goaltender choose a D in his team he gets 1 pts, from another team in same division he get 2 pts, other division 3 pts and other conference 4pts, add up pts and I bet you that you have all the best D men of the NHL...........

[@MuriKakari]

Oooh. I would love to see that question on Puck Personality. @ the NHL on that.

[@forg_tful.]

the only thing i didn't like about your og list was that toews was not on it, for me that was a huge overlook and underestimating what toews is just because he plays with cale, which i hate when people do. but it's just personal lists, no harm no foul, of course.

[@quattros21]

Can you win battles & dig out pucks in the corner? Can you take hits and still keep the puck? Lots of these mobile offensive d-men get exposed in these areas. Especially in the playoffs....

[@Xerxsion]

I can confirm, 2 years ago I saw a stat sheet of what players received the most hits and I remember Jordan Martinook was number 1. Can not remember for the life of me who posted the stat sheet on Twitter though.

[@shaunchappell784]

I think being the best defence man can also be down to alot of things that aren't tracked. Positioning, the magic stick ability, mobility, willingness to take and give hits, go to dirty areas, intimidation factor etc. It shouldn't be arbitrarily awarded to the top point getter/or near top point getter.

[@markhodge7]

Great jersey!

[@subfail4810]

There actually is a stat that tracks how many hits a player takes. I think up to this point Hischier was targeted (not saying dirty) like 18 or 20 times

[@conroche1535]

Speaking of taking (and shrugging off hits), I've never seen anyone to match Vlad Konstantinov. Not that he didn't deliver crushing ones, but guys who hit him, even much larger guys, seemed to bounce off like wiffle balls.

[@subfail4810]

@conroche1535 it's that deceptive strength. He was stocky and tons of leg strength.

[@rodchallis8031]

While I like the idea of "analytics" to get a deeper understanding of a player's performance, the data collection end of it seems very problematic to me.

[@treymagathan847]

There should be 3 defenseman awards. Bobby Orr Award: Defenseman with the most points Nik Lidstrom Award: Defenseman with the best defensive performance. Norris Trophy: Awarded to the best overall defenseman.

[@leerotten]

Shannon just nails it once again. These points aren't Canada only thing. I read here at Finland people commenting on our young players or even more seasoned NHL players absolutely ridiculously as well. At times they are also not off the point of how good the player is but they don't get how incredibly competitive league NHL is just to make your way to the roster, let alone take spot from a more seasoned player in the long run.

[@dsc4178]

When Dion Phaneuf played under 20 minutes a game he was good. At or over, oh boy. Reilly is best at 18 or fewer minutes and with a true, dedicated Defensive D man. Some guys play the same great way no matter how much they play, some even get better the more ice time they get.

[@ronniejosselyn4860]

All I know is Hamilton scoring 20+ again this year will keep him #1 in my heart

[@thenextgreat8652]

But your head still knows it’s Cale Makar and it’s not even close

[@mr.ilikespam6081]

so when i played minor hockey as a defenseman for 13 years i had a total of 10 points but i was always on the 1st line because of my defence and when it came to best defenseman I never won it. As a defensive dman the only one you get respect from is the goalie

[@marzix427]

If defense was MOST important in being a Norris winner, then Niklas Hjalmarsson would be a Norris trophy winner. I think the best defenseman is someone who excels on offense and defense.

[@backelie]

A defenseman, just like a forward, can be made to look a lot better than he is thanks to his pairing/line but if you look excellent in one defensive system and not another, then you're probably really good, and mis-used in the other.

[@Bum_Hip]

10:00 Jacob Truba

[@Vaazu33]

Howabout best goalie is who makes most points?

[@MarkVrem]

hmmm well Leadership should be a selfless type of category... Cause usually when you are placed in a leadership role, it's about taking care of whatever needs to be taken care. Talking about whatever or whoever needs to be talked about. Then on the flipside it means others are going to you with their problems. So usually you almost lose your own identity being a leader.

[@baohoaily]

It’s Morgan Rielly of course.

[@gordonmacdowell8117]

The NHL hacked up a big furball with the last Norris Trophy winner. It was ridiculous that Karlsson had 101 points as a defenceman, but even more ridiculous that he had a plus/minus of -26. It would have been like giving Gaudreau the Selke last year. It's kind of crazy with the new high tech sticks giving more powerful shots to have everyone and their dog blocking shots, many of them without taking advantage of the latest in protective gear. Imagine being the first guy to make a career out of shot blocking who looked at all the stuff the goalie was wearing and said "You don't need all that padding."

[@preppen78]

Pretty amazing season he had. Glad he won the Norris another time. He just keeps climbing up the best ever list.

[@TheScotian82]

It must be all the People Who Are Just Browsing Their Way Through who are constantly in disagreement and mad. Ive never seen them.

[@ShinBin8]

Sergachev too me is a top tier D

[@ShaunBowm]

Giveaway and takeaway can also be misleading when you have an electric dman who creates many prine chances on an offensive foray, yet has a puck roll off ( once) and gets clarified a giveaway You will take those handful prime chances over a measly turnover Again a good measurement with some flaws

[@romaliop]

Typically players who actually try to make plays have the most giveaways. The guys who try to make plays and consistently fail will very quickly either stop trying to make plays or be out of the lineup.

[@user-tb6ob3il3h]

Hmm so this should bring someone like Bogosian back into the Norris conversation then

[@nsldsfv1202]

Makar Fox Hughes right now.

[@millertime1101]

Top dman on winning team are the best defenseman

[@biffdanielson2820]

+/- and point production.

[@probablysam2744]

Reasonable assessment but could be negatively or positively biased due to good offence

[@Juniperberry9]

If you put Makar on SJ he's still gonna have a bad +/-. Don't think it's fair to judge on that

[@biffdanielson2820]

@joelseiferling7083 Fine, throw in gives/takes, and zone exiting/entering efficiency.

[@kungfu31]

Its Cale Makar and I dont think its very close.

[@Tdesparza]

I think in general the NHL needs to overhaul the season awards. All-star designation is essentially meaningless now. We need 1st/2nd team all pro equivalent and a few more awards so the same 4 guys are not the only ones getting praised.

[@catmelvin997]

its totally Cale Makar, but if you only have room for one star player on defense, you're probably looking for slightly cheaper guys with a different skill set

[@johannespitkamaki1369]

Cale makar he doesnt even have competition

[@jackbelden3851]

Martin Fehervary

[@b1ackm4gic]

All I gotta say is they're called "Defenseman" not "Offenseman". Norris shouldn't ignore offense, but it should favor shutdown who have the ability to provide offense and not be a black hole

[@MuriKakari]

Lol. Shea Theodore has gotten me the most points, so I'll pick him for a current player; but I'm a Red WIngs fan, so it will always be Nick Lidstrom- the piece that put me absolute on him was always that time he stick saved an empty net.

[@BlackraiderPlaysMc]

Just make a separate award for the biggest Human Sacrifice which could be any number of players, for example Ryan Lindgren who's been given the nick name "Robert Downey Jr." by his own goalie. (Iron man for those who are unaware)

[@keith96969]

John Klingberg!!!!

[@tracymoon4437]

I have entered all of this into the D-Master 5000. The results are perfect and the definitive answer for the greatest defenseman of all time will be Brock Faber.

[@benoitrobitaille5235]

+/- the most useful stats come to the rescue ! Only 1 active player is in the top50 and its McDonagh at +228, 27th, obviously by far the best defenseman still active ! 10 others are in the top100 Hedman +155, 55th Cole +146, 59th McAvoy +144, 62nd Slavin +135, 69th Lindholm +134, 70th Toews +133, 73rd Ekholm +129, 78th Grzelcyk +124, 82nd Giordano +119, 85th Pietrangelo +117 89th Honorable mention to Ryan Suter +106, 101st, Makar 111th, Fox 118th, Letang 123rd, Josi 150th, Hamilton 152nd, Sergachev 208th, Dought 246th, Morrissey 313rd. Thanks a lot most useless stats !

[@jefflarson1652]

+/- May not be useful when comparing players on different teams, but I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Toews was +39 and Makar was +16.

[@lelouchvibritannia4028]

​@@jefflarson1652Makar has more ice time, including when goals are scored against the Avs.

[@benoitrobitaille5235]

Tomas Tatar leading the league with a +41 on the Devils last season. It was shocking to see him getting signed for only 2 million by Colorado, so much interest on the market for his +41 and not a single Selke vote.

[@jefflarson1652]

@@lelouchvibritannia4028 Lol, Makar plays on the PP, which is why he has 1 minute per game more ice time. OR, Makar doesn't get off when he should and teams score when he gets stuck out there...but I wouldn't make that my argument if I were you.

[@Cherdenkov]

Healthy Hedman. He is the most influential. Makar, Fox or Karlsson cant match his physical play, Hedman can put up big points,is clutch and a leader too.

[@skylarsimes8]

?????? Do you not watch Makar play? The kid is plenty physical and wins battles all the time

[@robertalenrichter]

Maker has the bigger body, therefore the better shot. But, if you remove him from the lineup, the Avalanche are still good. Take Hughes from the Canucks lineup, and where are they? Yes, that's partially because the Avalanche have more depth, but this also works in Makar's favour. Play on a better team, you look better. Taking this into consideration, I don't know if there is a more "impactful" player in the whole league than Hughes.

[@forg_tful.]

there's one more aspect to that though? you could also look really good in a bad team, because there's not that many good players there and you're suddenly wayne gretzky compared to your teammates. but play in a good team, and you could get lost in the goodness, unless you're really the best of the best. there are many imo underrated players on that avs squad, because they get overshadowed by the others, devon toews is the #1 example - he wasn't even in thg's top 50 defensemen😭 (i just can't get over that, i'm sorry lol). but cale makar is one of the main reasons that team is a good team in the first place, so he doesn't necessarily benefit from it as much as he *drives* it. yes, the avalanche have a great d-core, arguably the best in the league or one of them at least, but makar is still at the tippity top whichever team you could hypothetically put him in. maybe hughes would be more valuable relative to the value of his team, but you could claim any good player on a bad-ish team is above makar, then. makar is still makar though, and drives a whole lot of what the avalanche do.

[@robertalenrichter]

@@forg_tful. Even if players get overshadowed, that doesn't reduce their contribution to the overall success of the team, which helps everybody. I know that Makar is one of the best defencemen of his generation. For me, as a Canucks fan, it just comes down to the question, would I be in favour of swapping Hughes for Makar? My answer is no, even though Makar has the bigger body, which helps defending and shooting bombs from the point. The edge-work, the "hockey IQ", as Tocchet says, are second to none, points-for and goals-against, I'll keep him.

[@forg_tful.]

​@@robertalenrichteryou mean hughes' edge-work? over makar's??

[@pablobarosa27]

This guy votes Dahlin. Everything Adam Fox is but 6'3" 215lbs and plays with grit.

[@jamesphilbrook5567]

Always wear a tee shirt under a sports jersey, you’re looking a little out of sorts. Great , if not the best hockey news channel on KZbin or any other platform.

[@TheHockeyGuy]

Incorrect. When I wear a T-shirt under an Adidas, any print on it shows through and badly.

[@Iamtidal]

McAvoy cus he is the only name I know

[@darkbreaker9767]

On the topic of hits taken, I know it's not a hit, and I know he's not a defenseman, but Joel Eriksson Ek easily takes the most penalties for getting punched in the face.

[@klompsauce]

Seider is top 10, 5 bc I’m a homer

[@dealy9268]

The correct answer is Jaccob Slavin!!!!!!!

[@NJDevilsWagon]

Cody ceci tops my personal list

[@beardupbeerdown7355]

Cale

[@JustBrowsing777]

Broccoli > cale

[@JustBrowsing777]

@cdfmmcc someone's gotta call out the inferior cale for what it is

[@tankgirl99]

I'm sorry Mr Hockey Guy, you're gonna need to stop being so reasonable. This is the internet after all!

[@tt128556]

Easy, if their rating is negative, they're not good defensemen. Karlsson may score a million points, but if his rating is -1.2M, he's still a hindrance to the team by being on the ice.

[@johnmay9598]

What the F is "rating"?

[@mahockey3]

So really good defenceman on trash teams would get fucked by that. Yeah no thanks.

[@probablysam2744]

You don’t know how hockey works my friend….

[@jefflarson1652]

It really depends on his team. If the team overall is -1.8M, then Karlsson at -1.2M would be a stud.

[@Robert-ki7bz]

Miro Heiskanen and Rasmus Dahlin have had a good week.

[@ANT4G0NIST]

Quinn as well

[@Robert-ki7bz]

@@ANT4G0NIST Yes.

[@lenkennedy9214]

I think the best offensive defenseman is Karlsson, best defensive defenseman is Hedman, and the best overall defenseman is Makar.

[@Wogger72]

Everybody knows who takes the most hits SNOOP DOG SNOOP A LOOP

[@TheSens_]

It might be impossible now but wait 2 years and it will be Sanderson unanimously.

[@ANT4G0NIST]

haha funny

[@luclabrecque6662]

and by the way Erik Karlsson would not get ONE vote.