The India Pattern Brown Bess and the HEIC F-Pattern Musket: Firepower

[@timothym2198]

There is so little information out there on the P39. Thank you, Rob, for filling in this missing link in the history of British military arms.

[@peteslinn482]

If you're interested, I can highly recommend the recent book "British Ordnance Muskets of the 1830s and 1840s: George Lovell's Legacy" by Adrian Roads. Covers all these in great detail!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Most welcome!

[@timothym2198]

@@peteslinn482 thank you kindly, sir!

[@slowhand1198]

Yet another example of your quality work. Replete with detail, but not pedantic, well balanced with live example and use of period illustrations as well as current references. Thank you again!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Very Kind! Thank you.

[@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis]

Fun fact: When the queen had first chartered the EIC in the year of 1600, it was named the "Governor and merchants from London trading into the east indies" After the revolution of 1689, the company had to be reorganised effectively as the revolt had caused sever economic problems for the shareholders. When all the companies had united by 1708, it had been renamed to the 'Valiant Company', but had formed the United East India company by 1709, and was then officially (from 1709 to its end by 1873) to the Honourable East India Company Source: Sahib, the British soldier in India

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Lot's of History there for sure!

[@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis]

@@britishmuzzleloaders although, what was the motivation for the company to be renamed to the Honourable east India company?

[@HarryFlashmanVC]

Brilliant stuff as always, Rob! Thanks for your hard work and its a pleasure to support you even through a disgraceful business like Patreon.

[@sirfox950]

Sir Harry Flashman!!! Is it you???

[@HarryFlashmanVC]

@@sirfox950 live from Gadamak Lodge, Leicestershire!

[@sirfox950]

@@HarryFlashmanVC haha! Legend!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

It's most appreciated, with thanks.

[@kennethhummel4409]

Excellent explanation! It also explains why one of my 1853 enfields is a.75 bore and has a simple notch type rear sight. The old gal must be a victory of spare parts and recycling. Its an enfield made for the EIC (rampant lion) one of 3 that I’ve bought over the years. The other 2 were normal second patterns also made for the EIC.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sounds like a parts gun.

[@diktatoralexander88]

Or it was made for the Indians, as a result of the Indian Mutinity. After that happened, the British decided that all weapons made for the Indians would be smoothbore.

[@wizardapprenticeIV]

Green shirt BritishMuzzleLoaders has returned. Nature is healing.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha!

[@earlshaner4441]

Good afternoon from Syracuse NY USA brother thank you for sharing history of the British Army

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@earlshaner4441]

Yes my friend cheers from the United States of America

[@earlshaner4441]

I love your CHRISTMAS special video with the wife interpretation while you were making the video my friend and I was laughing very hard when that happened my friend

[@backrowbrighton]

Rob, thank you so much for this video. I have always had this gap in my knowledge regarding the transition from the flintlock to the percussion system in the British Army. This fills it up and then some. Also I must congratulate you on the images used to illustrate the subject, all relevant. Other content creators should take note.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Glad you enjoyed it! Cheers!

[@sandmanhh67]

I have originals of both of these in my collection. Its heaven to see examples taken for a stroll around your amazingly beautiful wilderness range. Cheers Rob n keep on firing!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@Everythingblackpowder]

Excellent presentation as usual. Thanks, Rob.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@sirfox950]

No McKenzie intro? What happened to him, did the sergeant finally kill him??? 😢

[@robertsmith4681]

He got tendinitis from peeling all those potatoes so he gets to spend a day in the infirmary ...

[@pacman1386]

Then back to peeling potatoes!

[@robertsmith4681]

@@pacman1386 Doc's a good guy, he got poor Pvt McKenzie away from that mean Sgt, at least for the day ...

[@pacman1386]

@@robertsmith4681 but the cook's evil!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

MacKenzie typically comes out for Kit and Drill videos....

[@viperscot1]

Hazzar hazzar hazzar hazzar Another excellent informative quality content you dapper gent Now as a re enactor Indian pattern flint lock is what I mostly used , watching this I could smell and taste the powder brought back epic times thank you Bestest from Scotland

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Nice!

[@Squarecycle_]

What a great video. I just got my India pattern brown bess, and I was digging for information but not until I discovered this video and all my questions has been answered. Thank you.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

There is more Bess content on the Channel, if you are interested, including a Bess Introduction video..

[@Squarecycle_]

@@britishmuzzleloaders Yes, I am watching them and I am subscribed. Great content 👍👍

[@johnfisk811]

Great video Rob. Nice to see the F Type HEIC musket barking. I so miss mine even if it went to a good home. Thank you. FWIW I found the rear sight very useful. If the front sight just appears in the little slot then it is set for 50 yards. If it appears above the slot then 100 yards and if level with the horns then about 140 yards. I used 8 grams of Vectan Musket Powder. I suspect that, if one aimed just above a notional shako on a man then the level with horn setting might just do for 200 yards.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

I haven't had a real chance to shoot it out to that range yet, but it seems that 200 yds was an historical (if on the far end of range) distance mentioned. Hope all is well!

[@benrobertson7855]

Always enjoyable and educational.many thanks from nz,

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@bc30cal99]

Greetings from the sunny south Okanagan sir, thanks for another well produced and educational video. Have a great spring out west and do try to stay cool.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Will do! Cheers!

[@ENIGMAXII2112]

Very intersting Mr. Rob to have the flint lock AND the percussion musket in a back to back comparison. I see, so there is not much of a difference in landed shots on the paper between the two. So, in taking my flintlock to the range next morning. I shall NOT be too sore in the camparsion that I just witnessed. Thank you Sir.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Hope your shoot went well!

[@jrkat]

Your demonstrations are fantastic, thanks 😊

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@timblack6422]

Thank you, Rob!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Most welcome!

[@GeoffreyBronson]

You've earned a subscriber sir. Entertaining, educational and phwoar! Look at that scenery! I must book a holiday to Canada sometime soon.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you kindly.

[@JamesLaserpimpWalsh]

Thanks for the video. Love your presentation by the way.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@matthewrowe9903]

Must admit I was never into the older weapons until I found your vids dam good stuff sir

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@itsapittie]

That was fun and interesting. TBH, I didn't expect a significant change in firepower but there's no substitute for actually doing the work to find out.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@YuckFoutube-e1z]

Glorious stache sir.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha! Cheers!

[@charlesperry5890]

Outstanding video covering the transition from Flintlock to Percussion.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Glad to hear you enjoyed it!

[@RichardGoth]

Great video... so much info on this forgotten transitional phase

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@SamOrca-n3q]

Percussion was indeed a great leap, for the flintlock when fired multiple time can cause fouling on the mechanism that would lead to a misfire.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

It was a step... the weapon wasn't any more destructive. Now,.. breechloading,.... that was a great leap...

[@cmur078]

For bird shooting the percussion cap was a big thing, because it reduced the time between pulling the trigger and actually firing (though the best quality flintlocks were apparently comparable). Shooting a musket at a static target, or (in real war) one coming directly towards you, you wouldn't expect a huge advantage really.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sure thing. Hence the preponderance of percussion sporting arms early on!

[@polymathart]

I need an hour long asmr video of you just marching and handling your firearms. Can’t get enough of it.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha!

[@niklasaskham4208]

Another excellent presentation. Thanks Rob

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Most welcome! Cheers.

[@chickenitza8]

This channel exposed me to a new fascination, keep up the great work my friend.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Glad to hear!

[@saltycastform2932]

He’s back!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Yes.

[@properjob2311]

this channel is so informative

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@ldmitruk]

Hmm, is that Obadiah Hakeswill on sentry duty at 4:20?

[@HarryFlashmanVC]

Obviously... it says so in the Scriptures..so it does

[@ceciljohnrhodes4987]

@@HarryFlashmanVC so true mother, true it is.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha!

[@benoitgevry1482]

Great videos again, shooting is important but if you go for for hunting in winter and badley youy fall dawn in the snow or you walk in summer in raining days for 3 days, believe me fire cap will be the winner gun, thanks again.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

As mentioned in the video.... 😀

[@anselmdanker9519]

Thank you for an informative and insightful presentation.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Most welcome!

[@turtlewolfpack6061]

I do like the look of the New Land Pattern!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Certainly a transition piece. Cheers!

[@StevenMMan]

Well I have gone and done it, and signed up Mountain man

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you very much!

[@LittleRabbit1138]

I'm loving your mixed battle dress uniform!!! Just dont let the Sergeant catch you

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha!

[@AshmithBhat]

As a true Indian, When I heard the your 1857, My brain was screaming "Vande Mataram" BTW Happy Republic day for all Indians! सत्यमेव जयते ||

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sure.

[@mrmeowmeow710]

From a history nut 1 great gem of a video with my 2 big toes 4 thumbs up

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha! Glad to hear!

[@1861James]

Thank you for giving the HEIC Pattern muskets some love, maybe a series on the Pattern A thru F with the subtle changes in design in the future?

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Perhaps,…. I only have the one HEIC arm,…. So maybe in the future.

[@1861James]

@@britishmuzzleloaders you have a good many friends that I’m sure would assist 😊

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Thanks again mate

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@snappers_antique_firearms]

Another great video.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@SKNAZIR-sx1th]

I got your new video after a long time. Thank you very much

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@kieronjones5460]

Excellent video.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@ldmitruk]

Great video, as always. I would another benefit of the percussion cap is less smoke and sparks in a persons face when firing. I was surprised at how easy the fired cap was removed before loading the next round. I would interested in seeing how much of a difference the loading time would be when a bayonet is mounted on the musket.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Maybe for the follow up vid!

[@GunDoc39402]

An excellent video indeed. Huzzah!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@HicksPasha1883]

Great presentation rob as usual!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@ilfarmboy]

I got to fire a brown bess at 100 yards man it was heavy never had a chance to hit the target lol

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Nice!

[@ellyrion8173]

Brilliant video

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@bigsarge2085]

Awesome.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Cheers!

[@Soboba.Fett69]

Such a great looking rifle

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

There are no rifles in this video, though,... 😀

[@timothydurkan]

I like this channel.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@HarryFlashmanVC]

Question: are fulminate caps better than flintlock in wet weather? Ive shot an Enfield in the West of Scotland in the pissing rain on many occasions and never had an issue with the cap system. Re issuing of cap guns over flint: 1st Opium War, fought in the notoriously humid in that part of the world, spring snd summer, (cap issue) versus the flints issued to the 44th in Elphy Bey's army in arid, cold Afghanistan? Was the Board of Ordinance that organised to ensure the caps went to the Chinese expedition? (Were the Crapauds using caps at this point? If not then perhaps the issue of caps to the Chinese Expedition was designed to either embarass... or keep up with? The Frenchies?) (General Sir Harry Flashman VC, is silent on this subject in his memoirs of both campaigns)

[@AbananaPEEl]

This is commonly cited as a benefit, and owning a percussion musket, I think it could be true. No exposed powder to get wet. However, i have never fired a flintlock, in the rain or otherwise to speak on that. And modern production caps, I don't believe, use fulminate, so perhaps fulminate could be more susceptible to wet than modern caps.

[@myparceltape1169]

I thought that I heard Rob saying the copper caps were less susceptible to damp. It was about 3/4 of the way through.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Percussion caps are indeed better in the wet/damp. Prolonged heavy exposure will eventually start to degrade things even with caps though...

[@caesar4880]

You should do a video on some of the arms of the native Indian forces in service to the crown at the time. I hear there where a lt of odd things like smooth bore P-58 enfields and Martini-Henery rifles converted to only use shotgun ammunition.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

I have one HEIC arm,..... with no plans for another. I will do a stand alone video on that and when I do, I'll be including a potted history of the family of arms.

[@matthewcharles5867]

You would also have to think that transport of caps around the different areas in the empire would take up a lot less space then transport of flints would.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sure,... but you get many shots out of a flint... only one out of a cap...

[@Theoldcontemptible]

Hi there, do you have any information on how to fold a Victorian great coat. I can't find anything about how to fold them, great content, keep it up.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

There are dimensions in the P71 Fitting Instructions (found online) but the actual folding details are hard to come by... There is a thread on the "British Army and Navy 1888-1914" FB page.

[@NomadShadow1]

3:30 Nope, will not pardon the pun on the grounds that puns require no apology in the first place 😉

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Accepted, with thanks.

[@salaminshikiya9351]

A fantastic presentation about the arms that bridged the relatively less well-known period between flintlock smoothbores to rifled muskets. I'm curious though: As you've frequently dressed in uniforms contemporary to the weapons presented in the videos, would you acquire a uniform specifically from the years the percussion muskets saw active service? Actually, now that I think about it, the full dress trousers and shirt combination that you already have i think looks good enough for the period. And maybe the greatcoat in colder weather.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

I typically don’t use special clothing for this series except for specific circumstances. Clothing procurement is based on eventual need and scope of prospective usage…. At this point I don’t see going down the rabbit hole of the 1840s…

[@Mag_Aoidh]

Love my Bess and can compare it to my 1842 Springfield.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sure can!

[@GreenMosin93]

I'd always wondered what the Brits used between the Brown Bess and the P51. Seems like a substantial gap that isn't talked about much.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Fun fact, that the term "Brown Bess" was applied to both types of muskets, colloquially. Lots of historical references to calling percussion muskets "Bess"

[@robertsmith4681]

I did not know they tinkered with percussion conversions of the Brown Bess, always assumed percussion was introduced with the Pattern 51.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Would say "tinkered"... wholesale adoption more like... :)

[@kenrobba5831]

Now, that’s WHAT I call a true ASSAULT WEAPON with affixed bayonet and trained line !!!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha!

[@kenrobba5831]

ThankX, I thought it worth a ,”ha!”

[@jimmydesouza4375]

The delay between trigger and firing seems much shorter for the cap and ball gun. I assume thatd increase practical accuracy.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Practical in battle?... not so much.

[@vincetytler6175]

Excellent

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thanks, V!

[@БроварськетелебаченняСлавка]

Greetings. Please tell us about the wood plating in East India Company Percussion Musket Pattern F? I bought one for restoration

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Made in the IK by the trade... European walnut?..... I'm away from my references...

[@iangarrett741]

I know very little about this but, it appears to me, that a cap produces much less smoke and flame which would be useful during repeated firing.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Smoke was always a consideration in the era, for sure... in the context of the style of warfare of the era, the small differences between the percussion and flintlock muskets would have made little difference, though.

[@VictorianChinese1860]

I have always wondered how much percussion muskets did he British use compared to flintlocks during the First Opium War.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

A mix....

[@mattcavanaugh6082]

A rib down the barrel of the India Pattern, as on a modern shotgun, might have improved aim. On the other hand, your shots wide right and wide left would've just hit the soldier standing next to your target, so why bother? As always, an illuminating and entertaining presentation!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

I suppose that in the historical context, improvements in sighting just weren’t seen as being required…

[@wagon9082]

Good video

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

THanks!

[@AdelaideRegiment]

Did you know that units of the 40th and 12th RoF were still armed with P1842 Muskets when they attacked the Eureka Stockade in Australia in December 1854!?

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Seeing as how percussion muskets were still very prevalent in various HM and Company Regiments during the Mutiny, no, I'm not surprised. 😀 The 78th Highlanders only had about 100(-) Enfields during the 1st Relief of Lucknow... can you guess what the remainder carried?

[@ditzydoo4378]

Firing a smoothbore with an under sized paper patch round ball is much akin to bowling. 0~o Sometimes you find the pins, and sometimes you find the gutter. >~

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Haha!

[@iobey]

In the Battle of Plattsburgh, 1814, Captain Matthey introduce his self-priming system to the Brown Bess. Unfortunately, he didn't fire any shoots in the battle. When I search his book for the system's design, the free online version only shows the section of the pan, missing the other parts of self-priming system. I hope someone can reproduce Matthey's self-priming system, and test whether or not his claim about reliable firing is true... Capt Matthey, Material Improvements on Fire Arms, Particularly the Common Musket. (Lymington, 1812).

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Interesting!

[@iobey]

@@britishmuzzleloaders I certainly hope someone in UK can upload the pictures of the design from the book in the British Library. Otherwise, it will be difficult for us to truly analyse Matthey's claim.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Great content as usual Rob

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Thank you!

[@AbananaPEEl]

Forgive me if a previous video has gone into greater detail about this. I just checked the bayonet section of your "India Pattern Brown Bess: Intro" but how does the bayonet of the earlier brown bess remain so stable? It's just a friction fit, and a lug with a maze-like channel. I wouldn't think that would be enough to keep it so secure.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

It doesn't. It will pull back and even come off if a "pull and twist" motion is applied from a "sticky" target.

[@Stellar12316]

I found one of these in a roof in Toronto I need your help to identify it an if you want it you get first dibs

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Interesting! You can send a pic through FB or the Channel email.

[@seanbauer3623]

Do you have any advice for determining if an original musket is safe to fire? I've recently purchased what I believe is an India Pattern Brown Bess although it's got a new land pattern stock and the lock seems to be older. It's in reasonably good condition, some mild pitting and the lock has seen better days. The usual advice is to take it to a gunsmith but I'm not sure what input a gunsmith can really offer as there aren't exactly head space and timing checks to be done.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

No way I can advise on that without seeing it, sorry.

[@seanbauer3623]

@@britishmuzzleloaders Yea fair. Why would an India Pattern Bess have a new land pattern stock? I'm also looking at buying another India pattern that appears to have some manner of rear sight on the tang. Struggling to find sources for some of these questions online and I don't own any books on this period of firearm.

[@Achillesnic]

Love to see new episodes from you, always so informative

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Glad to hear! Thanks!

[@tsoliot5913]

Sharpe's musket, what hey?

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

?

[@ilfarmboy]

wow didn't know the brown bess lasted that long as a British military arm / please help me out but didn't the Arthur Wellesy held the military back from getting improved weapons? / didn't the British sell a bunch of brown bess muskets to Mexico when they didn't need them anymore?

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

To a degree.. and yes, Mexico whole heartedly adopted the military system of the British Army.. weapons and tactics were closely followed, including the use of the Bess and the Baker.

[@ilfarmboy]

@@britishmuzzleloaders thanks you are so well informed

[@mikehoare6093]

Jacob´s rifle, when ?

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Not for quite some time…

[@mikehoare6093]

@@britishmuzzleloaders I nrecently nearly bought one ! looking amazing from the outside and with 5.000euros rather on the cheap side ! well, I learnt they´ve been bored out after the Indian "mutiny"..........................................................sigh !!!!!!!

[@chpet1655]

It sounds so odd to hear that a rifle had only TWO grooves !

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Indeed!

[@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis]

AUSPICIO REGIS AT SENATUS ANGLIAE

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sure thing!

[@keithmoore5306]

Rob going by most of what i've heard on the east india company, honorable shouldn't be within 10 time zones of it!!!

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Lot's of history there for sure.

[@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis]

That was the official name of the company Get over it

[@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis]

@@britishmuzzleloaders *Fake history

[@keithmoore5306]

@@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis oh that time of the month? ever hear of sarcasm by chance??

[@The_Honourable_Bourgeouis]

@@keithmoore5306 Wdym mean by that time of the month? April has already finished bro

[@florinivan6907]

04:51 That private in the middle looks to be about 15/16 judging by his height.Probably newly enlisted at the time.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Just a small Gurkha that's all.

[@TheRedneckPreppy]

A certain popular television series? Sir, I will take no ill comments towards Lt. Col. Richard Sharpe and his methods! No, I kid. "Bite, pour, spit, tap" was nonsense.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Sharpe is a four letter word around here,....... 😀

[@tedarcher9120]

Why did british never adopt a self-priming system?

[@peteslinn482]

As a guess, it would be considered too fiddly and not "soldier-proof" :)

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Like the Maynard?

[@tedarcher9120]

@@britishmuzzleloaders or like 1740 Potzdam

[@ducthman4737]

👍

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

THanks!

[@BrettsCorner92]

I always wondered in England where those guns were made from. If someone wanted to buy a reproduction over there. Would that be a firearm Certificate or a shotgun Certificate? Since it's a smooth bore, I know. You can't shoot single round ball under a Shocking Certificate, they only can do buckshot.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Don't know about the rules, but both these examples were made by the trade in Birmingham, IIRC..

[@samiam619]

For the life of me, I can’t figure out what “HEIC F” stands for.

[@samiam619]

Is it “Honorable East India Co.? When and by whom was EICo known as “honorable”?

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

You got it.

[@salty4496]

:)

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

👍