The Klingon Bat'leth: Practical or Awkward? Smart or Stupid?

Ah yes, good old Viking Space Orks... Although they have disruptors for ranged combat too, you have to be quite an edgelord to insist on using melee weapons in the Star Trek universe. Is this blade as self-defeating as it may seem at first glance, or does it have merit in this particular sci-fi setting?
Let's put on the over-thinking cap and delve into it. Rather than just ramble about hypotheticals I've had a real one made to handle and try cutting with. It has been quite an interesting experience.
The maker of my steel bat’leth, Quinn Waterfield:
www.waterfieldforge.com/
/ waterfield_forge
Thanks to Rick Marchand for letting me do the testing at his place.
wildertools.com/
/ @wildertoolsbyrickmarc...
/ wildertools
/ wildertools
Oh, and in case you want to know my opinion of the Mek'leth too, here is an ancient video about it (from 2014, ugh...): • The Klingon Mek'leth -...
More about giant swords and how heavy they actually are (not that much!):
• Yes, Giant Swords Exis...
My criticism of double spears / dual glaives:
• Short Double Blade Sta...
** Time stamps **
00:00 - 00:47 Intro skit
00:47 - 02:19 Origin / Kahless the Unforgettable
02:19 - 03:29 My custom bat'leth
03:29 - 05:00 Offensive & defensive capabilities / old vs. new design
05:00 - 07:22 Real-life testing
07:22 - 10:50 Handling / weight
10:50 - 11:21 How much sense does it make?
11:21 - 12:59 Real Chinese designs similar to the bat'leth
12:59 - 15:27 How it fits the lore
15:27 - 16:43 What I like about it
16:43 - 17:30 The downfalls of over-analyzing
17:30 - 18:16 Problems with double-sided weapons
18:16 - 20:52 Ideas for improved versions
20:52 - 22:18 Pros & Cons compared to swords / polearms
22:18 - 23:20 Benefits of the Sword of Kahless
23:20 - 24:25 Final thoughts / outro
** Sources **
memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/...
Why The BAT'LETH Design? (Star Trek Theory)
• Why The BAT'LETH Desig...
Harry Kim teaches Darth Maul
• klingon bat'leth chall...
The Bat'leth: Everything There is to Know
• The Bat'leth: Everythi...
#startrek #sciencefiction #realism
ravenforge.com/products/batle...
deerhornknives.com/
fb.watch/aaY740S-VE/
北少林-日月乾坤刀 Northern Shaolin - Rirou Qian Kun Dao
• 北少林-日月乾坤刀 Northern Sha...
** Music **
Intro song:
"Illuminate" by Vindsvept
vindsvept.bandcamp.com/track/...
Used with artist's permission
"Spirit Waltz" by Horrorpen
opengameart.org/content/spiri...
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license (CC BY 3.0)
Cyberpunk Industrial Darksynth music by White Bat Audio (Karl Casey)
CC BY 3.0
/ whitebataudio
"Rising" by Horror Pen
opengameart.org/content/game-...
CC BY 3.0
Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
theslantedroom.github.io/stev...
Used with artist's permission
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[@JosephDavies]

"Too much texture; too much random stuff." This perfectly describes everything about the redesign of the Klingon aesthetic in Discovery.

[@blitz8425]

Personally I really liked the design of starfleet, but man the klingons looked like shit. I actually depart from most fans in that ib think that Into Darkness had an awesome redesign. They were different, but still recognizable as klingons. Their whole vibe was awesome.

[@robertharris6092]

Id say modern sci-fi in genersl. Look at bungie halo vs 343 halo art design.

[@JosephDavies]

@@robertharris6092 Indeed. Definitely seems to be a current "style".

[@acethemain7776]

@@robertharris6092 halo infinite looks pretty simple.

[@MasterofSpiders]

Perfectly describes everything about the aesthetic in Disco generally.

[@Gabrong]

the Discovery's design is a telltale sign of a bad concept art trend... put thousands of griblys and fuckeries on everything so the viewer thinks it is complicated and well designed...

[@DUCKDUDE4100]

I'm gonna say this up front, I'm gay as hell and I loved that there was a gay couple in discovery, it's nice to see, but that show fucking sucks in most regards. I particularly hate that they ripped off the plot and characters of the first season from an in development indie game lol.

[@zappodude7591]

Literally the opposite of ST's original design philosophy.

[@AngelusNielson]

I would handwave the silliness by saying "If a Klingon can beat you with a bad weapon that just makes him an even better warrior doesn't it?"

[@AngelusNielson]

@@CubedSausagefromScarparius People have used syringes of blood they claimed were infected with AIDS as a weapon to commit crimes. Does that make syringes of blood good weapons?

[@inwit594]

@@AngelusNielson Well, were they the superior warrior with the syringe compared to their opponent? :]

[@AngelusNielson]

A guy using one successfully used one to rob a bank, so I'm going with yes.

[@robert-joshuamcfaddin7041]

​@@AngelusNielson yes

[@cherriagana]

One of the things I really liked when seeing Worf using it is how well it's choreographed to flow from stance to stance, it's really well made for TV/Movies while making you not go "eeerm that looks 100% stupid", it has this feeling of useability and it fits a giant warrior race.

[@karanod]

I think that came from somebody handing Michael Dorn a Bat'leth on day one of filming and he started to basicaly dance with it.

[@JFrazer4303]

Up against even a mediocre skilled rapier swordsman, and tell us how useful it is in combat.

[@Valsorayu]

@@JFrazer4303 Looks like a might fine throwing weapon...

[@inwit594]

@@JFrazer4303 Tell me how useful a rapier is against an alien that will rip your limbs off if you piss it off.

[@JFrazer4303]

@@inwit594 if you perforate its vital organs from a couple of meters away, just fine.

[@braddl9442]

If I recall, The Klingon Home world has lots of cave and tunnels that they lived and fought in. How good is this weapon for tunnel fighting. I imagine You could block the average tunnel by holding it horizontal. Also in star trek klingons are like 1.5 to twice as strong as a human and have higher muscle and bone density. So the weight of their weapons might be higher because it has to be to cut through Klingon leather and bone.

[@marocat4749]

They know the lore, just agree klingons are not really klingons, they have shown recently they know the lor thou (if butchered th klingon one)

[@warrensteel9954]

Yeah, a lot of hand to hand fighting is done in close quarters so a long swinging weapon would be at a disadvantage.

[@braddl9442]

@@warrensteel9954 yeah this seems like you could do lots of short swings keeping it close to your body based on the swings skall took. Like you could do some strong swings in a tunnel or ship corridor.

[@mkv2718]

now this raises the question of how a tunnel dwelling people came upon space travel.... brain hurt....

[@Jamesnomoon]

@@mkv2718 Guess they had to make it to the surface sooner or later. Got to the top, saw the stars and went "I bet there's so many other things to kill out there..."

[@christiankalk4668]

If you consider the Bat'leth's name, loosely translated "Sword of Honor", or perhaps "Blade of Honor" may be more appropriate, it seems to highlight a primary purpose: honor duels. Looked at as a duelling weapon as opposed to a battlefield weapon, it makes much more sense how this weapon would originate, since pure effectiveness in the Klingons' primitive times would have led to use of spears and shields used in formation. Their "Honor" culture would create a specific demand for a weapon like this that can showcase a warrior's strength and skill, is effective in a small duelling circle, is useful offensively and defensively, is good against an armoured opponent, and provides many options of delivering non-critical strikes in a duel where the point of honor is too slight to justify killing or maiming. Context is a huge factor in whether a weapon makes sense.

[@ComotoseOnAnime]

Yeah, it's not something that they'd use for combat, at least not usually, but would still be effective if you had to board a ship and maul a squishy crew at knife fight range, because at best most other races are going to have a long knife, entrenching tool, or ceremonial saber, if any melee weapon at all. So some big hulking giant of a man twice your weight and strength coming at you with a giant sharpened hood ornament is going to make you wish you wore your brown pants.

[@catoblepasomega]

The klingons definitely had more traditional spears and swords-Duras uses a saber against Worf when they duel, and worf berates a klingon at the POW camp the Romulans were running for using a spear to tend a field. The Batleth definitely strikes me as a ceremonial/dueling weapon. IRL there have been equally strange and even less practical devices used for such, like the dueling shield. The Bat'leth is just so culturally dominant that it finds its way into the battlefield so often regardless of the presence of more practical melee weapons.

[@christiankalk4668]

@@catoblepasomega I forgot about the spears...I don't think I ever saw them or heard them mentioned outside that prison camp episode. The shows usually feature the Bat'Leth and that freaky switchblade dagger with wings. I would assume that back in the Klingons' Bronze and Iron Age equivalent, spears would have been the primary battlefield weapon. Spears fell out of use (mostly) as higher technology weapons came into use, but the Bat'Leth kept its cultural significance for duelling, and remained popular as a way for warriors to earn more personal honor than shooting their enemies with Phasers or destroying ships in space. It's an interesting concept that a culture would keep using an ancient, essentially outdated weapon basically because...they want to. But it fits the picture we're given of Klingon culture.

[@rexstocephirxiii4263]

@@catoblepasomega kind of like how WW2 Japanese officers were given katana regardless of how practical it was for that soldiers position or role.

[@rexstocephirxiii4263]

@John Everyman pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

[@RavenForgeOfficial]

cheers for the Raven Forge mention, we have sparred with ours and i can say from experience it was A- exhausting and B- not great to watch, but C- loads of fun witch it what ist all about !

[@Skallagrim]

Nice! I can imagine how tiring it would be to spar with such a hefty weapon.

[@williambuchanan77]

@@Skallagrim all that training would make you as strong as Klingon warrior.

[@FirstIsa]

Glad to see you mentioned the sun and moon/cicada wing sword. From what I recall the original designer of the Bat'leth was Dan Curry who based it on deer horn knives and the cicada wing sword wanting to create both an ergonomic and somewhat practical weapon, because none of the cast had a clue what to do with it he also developed the Klingon Mok’bara martial arts based on his own knowledge of muay thai and tai chi, as well as his wife's expertise in tae kwon do.

[@PatrickNiese-sn6fs]

I had heard similar things, that the stunt honcho used his own martial arts experience.

[@benkelsey891]

One thing which is never explicitly stated in Star Trek is that the large middle portion of the Bat'leth is actually blunt. This is made clear several times in TNG and DS9 when we see Worf and others striking the faces of their opponents as a way to knock them back and create distance. These opponents never end up with huge gashes on their face from having this done. It also makes sense as to why users regularly take full force strikes from other weapons in that portion as there is no edge to damage.

[@HazySkies]

A blunt edge also means it's more resistant to chipping and less likely to catch/lock.

[@Tennouseijin]

Makes sense in that - if we assume armored opponents, which Klingons generally are - having a sharp edge in the middle wouldn't be of much use. The points are for striking gaps in armor. The middle - if it was sharp - couldn't really cut through metal armor, so optimizing it for defense, blunt force and grappling makes more sense.

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

Can you provide an explicit citation for that? My main comment on Matt Easton's review recently was exactly that. The center portion should be essentially a giant ricasso. I'm curious if there is actually explicit canon support for that idea, rather than just not wanting to show blood on prime time TV. Often we see Jadzia drop the edge and stroke with the handle end, in essence, to avoid a killing blow. She's a weak Star fleet type, though so what would you expect...

[@Skallagrim]

Yes, I agree that it makes sense for the center of the blade to be blunt for defensive use. I just wanted to see how useful it could be for slicing and pushing. As it turns out, not very much.

[@bowlsallbroken]

I imagine the center being sharp would be helpful to prevent grabbing/disarming. See Chinese crescent moon knives for a similar idea.

[@Nerobyrne]

It is very hard to make a weapon that's very unique and not entirely useless. Kudos to them for that.

[@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812]

Its actually a real weapon that was used/practiced in ancient martial arts. Also Jackie chan used a moose rack as an improvised version in a movie one time. Although the earliest forms actually would have been made from a moose/elk Rack.

[@xxxCrackerJack501xxx]

I just really want to see someone knowledgeable practice like hell with a Bat'leth and then spar against someone else with a normal sword who's skilled in traditional sword fighting techniques and see what would happen/how effective it actually is against real-world weapons and tactics

[@FrikInCasualMode]

With skills being equal? Swordsman will win. Maybe not every bout, but good majority of them. Due to weight difference alone, sword should be faster and more agile. Weapons of similar mass? We're getting into 2-handers territory - which have better reach. But that would indeed be very interesting to watch :)

[@BoolianKazooka]

Someone else in these comments was talking about how he used to fight in a padded weapon sparring group and someone made a bat’leth. He said it was a monster to fight against due to its ability to parry into a counterattack. I assume they were mostly amateurs so I’m not sure how it would compare to a professional.

[@scratchy996]

In sparing, the sword would win. In an actual fight to the death, the Bat'leth would win, because 6:48 you can punch them while you slice them !

[@MrPiotrV]

Sword wins 100%. This weapon is trash. You can use as a terribly bad and short 2 handed sword or have your hands apart and now you have a 2 handed weapon with as much reach as a kitchen knife. Meanwhile your opponent can use their 2 hands to have a weapon with A LOT more reach or a 1 handed weapon with a shield.

[@zkeletonz001]

Get in close and you could dominate a swordsman. So in close quarters, like inside a starship, it would have the advantage. Out in the open, though, you'd be hard pressed with one.

[@Earthenfist]

I do find it interesting how they managed to find/create a usable weapon design that appears as though it went through its own evolutionary process. I believe I remember reading somewhere that the Bat'leth is 'descended' from agricultural implements- and I can entirely see a back-handled crescent blade (maybe a two-sided sickle with different edge geometries for different crops, or so you don't have to sharpen in the middle of a harvest?) being used for combat and eventually becoming this. And it does, somehow, not look like any Earth weapon while still very much being a 'humanoid combat implement'.

[@ZMowlcher]

I love the reaction the actors had to this weapon. They had no idea how you were supposed to fight with it

[@braddl9442]

Most actors have no clue how to use weapons. That is why you hire experts to teach them. Stage plays have to have experts in stage combat as well.

[@Nerdnumberone]

@@braddl9442 The experts/stuntpeople would also need to invent a new fighting style for an exotic weapon like this. Granted stage combat is very different from real combat. Your opponent will cooperate with you rather than stab you when you do something flashy.

[@braddl9442]

@@Nerdnumberone I think the guy that made it based it on existing Chinese weapons and styles.

[@Zom13y]

What’s funny is the Mek’leth was created at the request of Michael Dorn, the actor who played Worf, for his role in DS9 because he wanted a more practical and easier to wield weapon. To me this just proves that even if Michael Dorn really got into the mindset of his character, there’s even an episode where Worf argues that the Mek’leth is the more practical weapon.

[@Tennouseijin]

From what I've heard, at least for main characters in big budget movies, it's commonplace to pretty much invent a new fighting style specifically designed for the character or for a species/nation/etc. - stage combat experts are trying to create something that looks awesome on screen, matches the character's/groups personality, and maaaaaybe has a tiny bit of realism mixed into it, just to avoid looking too silly - you know, to keep suspension of disbelief. But that's a minor factor, often omitted. So really, it's hard to expect actors to know it 'intuitively' when they're given the weapon for the first time :P

[@pao_lumu]

Star Trek: Discovery doing something blatantly stupid that flies in the face of the franchise? Perish the thought!

[@nwstraith]

I'm glad I've not wasted my time on that show. Sounds like they have no regard for what has come before.

[@sizanogreen9900]

@@nwstraith I started watching it but once they introduced way oversized tardigrades as multidimensional(?) alien creatures as the basis for their weird Ftl-drive I could not take the series seriously anymore even with all the effort in the world.

[@jhmcd2]

Its about what looks good on the screen (in Kurtzman's mind) and not what actually could work.

[@rexstocephirxiii4263]

Writers are forgetting the first rule "yes and" instead they keep going " no, actually". Basically you need to keep building the lore and contradict the old lore as little as possible.

[@DZ-X3]

Sometimes they contradict the real lore to be different, but most of the time they just never bothered looking it up. And nobody working on this reboot stuff knows anything about Trek.

[@davidford85]

With regard to the grip, the one continuous grip vs the three separate ones, I wonder if this was a change brought about by the props department. A single full length grip would work on a 'real' Bat'leth made out of steel, but a prop version presumably made of a weaker material might have needed the extra structural support between the grip and the front of the weapon. Of course the simpler answer (Occam's Razor & all that) would be the art department thought it looked cooler. Edit: apparently the shunt prop used by Michael Dorn was made of rubber, so would have benefited from the extra structural support, even if that wasn't the reasoning behind it.

[@markusgorelli5278]

7:34 Yes!! I noticed even in the original Star Trek scenes, that it seemed that the actors were struggling to keep the blade level. So while the blade looked completely bad-ass, I always felt that maybe some alteration of the grip was called for.

[@thefloridaman41]

The new design legitimately looks like a fantasy bow with some sort of like invisible/intangible string that somehow still keeps it tight.

[@jurtheorc8117]

That reminds me of the Arch weapon from the PS3 game El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron. It looks like a big bow, but the "String" is a staff and the "bow" is an energy blade of spikes that move as if the energy blade was part of a big wheel or rotary saw.

[@jasonshirrillmusic]

it's stupid

[@jasonshirrillmusic]

just like everything in star trek discovery

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

To be fair to the bat’leth, it continues to exist in a warp-capable, phaser-using Klingon civilization… which means it probably isn’t meant for contemporary combat in Star Trek. I see it as a great duelling and tournament weapon: it’s too cumbersome to carry for self defense and not as versatile for a battlefield, but it would make for a great spectacle in judicial duels and tournaments. Look up HEMA duelling shields if you’re wondering what I have on my mind right now.

[@ShinKyuubi]

My Star Trek is PRETTY rough..haven't dealt with it much over the years since my mom passed as she was the one into Star Trek..and Star Wars, where I took more to Star Wars. BUT that aside if I remember right, isn't the weapon considered more of an honor weapon? Like used in duels of honor and as a symbol of their past?

[@hathegkla]

That's always been my opinion of the bat'leth. It's used as a dueling weapon or in combat as a "sword of honor" so it has a more specific purpose than "ultimate war sword" which it isn't. They have phasers so it's used in close quarters to accompany their ranged weapons. A spear or pike might better in a battlefield but the klingons also had those, Worf had a half bat'leth looking thing on a stick that looked a lot like a pike.

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

@Jo Jo I want to bring back dueling shields for HEMA tournaments. That would be so cool.

[@leonchervez5969]

I remember a StarTrek: Enterprise Episode with Klingon Pirates. They all carried Blades when Beaming down to shake down some settlers but discarded them and drew their disruptors once they encountered resistance.

[@MrFragalax]

A weapon like the Bat'leth probably should be largely ceremonial, but it isn't. Look up "DS9 Klingon Attack", the Klingons make heavy use of the Bat'leth in actual combat.

[@TimParker-Chambers]

A thought I had, while replying to Shad's thoughts on the bat'leth (and especially keeping the design of the Sword of Kahless in mind, rather than the TNG bat'leth) was; what if, rather than thinking of the bat'leth as a *sword* , instead, thing of it as a *scythe* . Or, even more specifically, a scythe which Kahless *re* forged into a weapon (with excellent defensive capabilities) for his fight against Molor... Something which would enable him to endure Molor's attacks until Molor's strength was spent, and *then* deliver a savage blow, as when Worf fought and killed Duras... As soon as that thought came to me, the bat'leth made sense from an in-universe perspective, and IMHuO, completely changed the perspective, and dismisses the disingenuous comparisons of bat'leths against thrusting/fencing swords - things which it clearly would not be suited for - instead, into consideration of it as something designed entirely to block, and eventually dismember and kill. Many weapons have an origin in agriculture, what it the bat'leth did as well? (from an in-universe perspective) IMHuO, such a change in classification and perspective, completely affects the context and findings, from 'unwieldy and poor fencing sword', into 'excellent blocking and hacking scythe'... Against a knight or a samurai, if I had 'the same sword as them', I would be out-skilled and unable to offer an effective defence: With a bat'leth, while I may not be able to 'strike them down', I would certainly be able to block their attacks for a lot longer, and perhaps get in a few of those off-angle counter-strikes which you mentioned... Thankyou for such an insightful and well-balanced analysis and presentation 👍👍

[@snowdaybornagainbrony6832]

Experimented with these at LARP/SCA long ago. A lot of us were curious about them in combat (as opppsed to honor duels) and the results were... interesting. What was really neat is how much better it worked if you approached the enemy thinking like a bloodthirsty and fearless klingon. You could catch a blade and attack in a single move, which meant you could potentially dispatch an enemy very quickly. Makes perfect sense for a klingon trying to mow down lots of foes in rapid succession. How did conventional weapons rate against it? Polearms/pikes (though I was able to almost slide all the way into striking range against that too) or a sword/shield were best. It's worth noting that I still forced people into a very defensive posture in those cases. Just about every other melee weapon was screwed. The other weapon that worked really well against it was... another Batleth. I always thought they were cool looking, but actually using them, probably made me feel way more like a badass than twirling around a geeky Star Trek weapon ever should be able to.

[@chadnine3432]

In the episode Reunion, Duras fought Worf with a more conventional sword against his Bat'Leth. So the Klingons do have typical swords as well.

[@tanall5959]

Duras is also shown to be, shall we say, less than honorable. So him using a sword vs. a bat'leth is probably supposed to tie into that aspect of his character.

[@TheSpeedyCola]

well that sword was apparently romulan, hinting at the fact duras was a traitor siding with the romulans. EDIT: it was Gowron who fought and died to worf, gowron had the romulan sword, sorry, i mix some klingons up sometimes. Having Duras fight with a conventional sword served to separate him from the Klingon average and perhaps indicate that he didn't follow the teachings of Kahless. the sword i mentioned is a tik'leth , a one handed long sword with a long tradition in the Imperial Guards

[@bannedmann4469]

@@TheSpeedyCola When did they say that? Why would he openly carry that? Was it a trophy? I know they take trophies.

[@greyvr4336]

@@bannedmann4469 I never heard it was Romulan, but regular Klingon swords did exist. Worf has two D-guard swords in his room, though the blades are 'klingon style.'

[@user-do2ev2hr7h]

That always felt out of place to me and more like an artifact of the fact that the writers hadn't really figured things out yet.

[@potatomatop9326]

I say smart because it looks like it has 500% increased critical damage and 25% stun chance.

[@SethanderWald]

I feel like two handed grip would give a lot better defensive use, and single handed would be for offense. Being able to fluidly switch between them is a nice feature.

[@Seriously_Unserious]

This weapon also seems to work well for the purpose of hand to hand combat on ships during boarding situations. In a narrow ship's corridor, a big weapon like a longsword, with a reach advantage would be more likely to get caught up in the environment. Try to swing it and it'll bounce off the walls and you'll have a hard time using it, while the guy using the bat'leth would not have that issue.

[@Axterix13]

Which is why you'd use a spear instead. More reach, faster, and avoids the swing issue.

[@Seriously_Unserious]

@@Axterix13 and creates the getting jammed in a narrow corridor when you need to turn around issue. You can point it in one direction and ONE direction ONLY. One Direction's fine if you like Boy Bands, but not so helpful when a dude's coming up from behind and you can't turn your spear around to point it at them.

[@marctaco2624]

The Discovery version looks more like a bow than anything else.

[@toomanyaccounts]

a bow that shoots the user rather then the enemy

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@toomanyaccounts The nunchaku version of a bat'leth!

[@justmutantjed]

Yeah pretty sure you can get something that looks like that in _Skyrim._ Daedric something-or-another bow that talks to your character and tells them to murder town guards or orphans.

[@Evirthewarrior]

The Writers for Discovery are some of the most arrogant and stupid writers I have ever seen. They do zero research and just do whatever they want and push whatever agenda they want. It is why the show sucks.

[@ttneiltt1]

I did actually make a working version of that: effectively a batleth strapped to a horsebow.

[@walshmt84]

That *thing* from discovery looks like a ceremonial piece more than a useable weapon.

[@llamapi3]

That entire show pisses on continuity on purpose.

[@walshmt84]

@@llamapi3 have not watched a single episode and have no intention of doing so

[@singletona082]

@@walshmt84 I have watched a decent chunk of it and can confirm. There are SOME decent ideas going on but it's like... UUGH...

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

@@walshmt84 Don’t bother. Discovery rewrote the entire canon of TOS as being secretly caused by Michael Burnham, the messiah-like figure someone wanted to shoehorn into the Trek lore for no reason. On a better note, I heard DS9 was the best Trek series ever, so I highly recommend you watch it. I would if I had time.

[@walshmt84]

@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight DS9 is the best Trek series. I can confirm.

[@vp21ct]

As mentioned quite a bit below, the Batleth is a weapon intended for use in close quarters, to give the powerful defense of a polearm without the risk of catching on things . . . . . . which actually applies to it's IRL design process as well. Klingons swinging swords and the like around could be dangerous to the expensive set pieces, so instead, they designed a tight weapon which doesn't have as much risk of damaging the set thanks to it's smaller 'footprint'.

[@philmorton4590]

The bat'leth was also a tool, it was used for tilling the ground, used as a sickle in agriculture and for hunting large game long before it became a ceremonial weapon of choice. The mec'leth was better at combat as warf showed in first contact movie and in DS9. The different types of bat'leth also show fighting style and family allegiance.

[@lozm4835]

To be honest, the Klingons seeing no difference between their swords and their plowshares as it were works quite well for their race.

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

My favorite fan theory is one suggested by Certifiably Ingame: Kahless was canonically a farmer with little training, so it would make sense to base his weapon on a farming tool he is familiar with. It's basically a weaponized form of a Klingon hand sickle or plow. Its shape also encourages strict training to be effective, and its broad catching arcs make defensive maneuvers almost trivial - meaning those that adopted it almost automatically had a better survival rate than someone who runs in with a less defensive weapon they barely trained with. So even if it was technically less efficient than other weapons, it simply outlived the other options. (His video might be a good follow-up watch because he also has his realistic take on the myth of its creation.)

[@lukedogwalker]

Shades of the Okinawans developing their farm tools into weapons to resist the Japanese.

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

@@lukedogwalker Pretty common practice around the globe, really. While things like nunchaku or war scythes are the most obvious examples, most of the common weapons have such roots as well. Axes are still in use as tools today, spears and bows started out for hunting use, and if you want to get down to it, swords are really just very large specialized knifes. Even guns and bombs are originally derived from fireworks... Would make sense that fictional weapons have similar roots.

[@theexchipmunk]

@@lukedogwalker Or just medieval peasants. The Fauchard as a medieval pole arm was common for them in war. It also had hooks and spikes for use against armored opponents. What many people don't know is that it`s actually just a modified farm tool. Namely a type of sickle knife on a pole to use for hedge trimming and keep up. When it came to war, these were just modified by a villages smith and tuned into a Fauchard.

[@frankharr9466]

I've seen that video. It's good.

[@evensgrey]

That goes along with what was said about Kahless's bat'leth when it turned up in DS9: He also used it to harvest crops and carve a statue.

[@justanothervoice2538]

The divided grip is by far the worse design element; with that removed, it’s SO much more effective!

[@schwarzerritter5724]

The divided grip makes sense, because the original Bat'leths where made out of iron. But you are not going to break space materials like duranium.

[@imjustaguy8232]

@@schwarzerritter5724 they are also known to use their third leg to grip the middle handle for extra stability

[@keirantalent]

@@imjustaguy8232 Thank you for that mental image… 😂

[@bannedmann4469]

@@imjustaguy8232 Lol funny. But violent species actually tend to have the smallest schmeat.

[@ArgosySpecOps]

@@schwarzerritter5724 or Baakonite😉

[@KAEFARIK]

I love how now we can still hang out essentially standing in a circle nerding out about klingon weapons and stuff, but now it's online with high production value... Cheers Skall and my fellow 90's before school homies

[@Movie_Games]

I feel like blocking a normal sword attack with the Bat'leth would be the big problem. Looks like it would tilt in your hands after the blow and the sword would make contact with the klingon.

[@ModernKnight]

Nice one Skall, so funny how you and Matt did videos on the weapon at the same time!

[@scottmacgregor3444]

Funny thing, Skall had already shot the film when Matt's came out. He was kinda concerned about it on Discord.

[@TerkanTyr]

@@scottmacgregor3444 Maybe Matt's spies in the skies crossed the pond to let him know the Bat'leth video race had begun.

[@LuxisAlukard]

Now we wait for Shad to make a response video =)

[@NoFormalTraining]

@@LuxisAlukardI'll make a prediction, Shad will continue to think it's stupid.

[@devilsmessanger]

@@scottmacgregor3444 discord ? is there like weapons youtubers council on discord ?!

[@DarkestVampire92]

No need to worry, Skall, its well established that Bat'leths only loosely follow a specific pattern laid out by Kahless, and each weapon may be different depending on the requirements of the user or the House that commissions them. Worf, for instance, has a rather odd polearm-shaped Bat'leth hanging on the wall in his cabin which is straight like yours, though missing the middle portion of the blade to be more of a double-ended spear. (Its actually a prototype for the weapon they didnt end up using but hey lets go with "Its a different pattern")

[@kevinruby9241]

I have always considered this a trench warfare weapon. A defined preference for in-your-face combat is inherent

[@WernerKaffl]

The Bat'leth Jadzia Dax asked for on the holodeck in the scene shown in your video is in fact not the usual size at 116 cm. This "warrior configuration" has been widely adopted, although it's actually a reduced size to be wielded by a human. Klingons are generally quite a bit taller than humans and by far stronger. When researching for my own version of the Bat'leth of Kahless, I stumbled across some dimensions better suited for Klingon size, 154.5 cm from tip to tip, 42.5 cm in higth, 92 cm between the inner tips and 58 cm length of the grip (which is one single hole in Kahless's weapon and is easier to handle). You will find similar dimensions on pages of prop makers and sword smiths who attempted a rebuild. Also, in Deep Space 9, season 4, episode 8, "The Sword of Kahless", you can see Terry Farrell holding the Bat'leth of Kahless, which pretty much defined the dimensions of the later weapons. Since Terry Farrell is 182 cm tall, the way she holds that weapon, her hands are about 50-55 cm apart (I tried that position with a friend of that hight). She covers roughly 1/3 of the over all length of the weapon, which makes the whole thing a size of a bit more than 150 cm. This was a weapon made by and for a Klingon, vs the one "human downsized" she requested for her trial with Kor in that episode. Funny that so many Star Trek nerds miss that point and adopt the wrong dimensions as those of a Klingon weapon. Re wearing the Bat'leth, Enterprise, season 2, Episode 6, "Marauders", 32 minutes into the program you can see Klingons wearing their Bat'leths on a strip of leather slung over their shoulders.

[@emarceeqem4715]

With regards to the origin story of the Bat'leth: The story was likely written in such a way as to reflect a mythological legend of some sort. Star Trek is full of many rich cultures, and the Klingons in particular have a very well detailed culture and history. The unrealistic nature of the legend is likely on-purpose to show that the Klingons, advanced as their technology may be, still believe in crazy myths and legends. Their culture is also rife with many customs that, by design, may seem brutal or even primitive to audiences, and it is all by design to create a rich and interesting culture for the Star Trek universe.

[@brothersgt.grauwolff6716]

if one goes by Star Trek Online/Beta Lore the Batt'Leth was actually designed to deal with Hur'q opponents which are massive creatures so it's design makes sense

[@Gellert1984]

Right? Its no different to Excalibur being pulled from a stone or Grass Cutter controlling the wind.

[@theexchipmunk]

@@Gellert1984 This. We have some crazy tales about swords. The only one that's probably actually real is the swords that were supernaturally sharp and could cut your opponents blade. But that's just a lack of context. In all likelihood it actually has a real core from the Bronze Age. There is some indication that there was iron around before iron smelting in the form of meteoric iron. So, if someone got the idea to make a sword out of that, you would have a iron sword in a time everybody else had bronze ones. And an iron sword against a bronze one is a mess. It can hack the bronze weapon up pretty well without much damage to itself.

[@Gellert1984]

@@theexchipmunk Yeah, iron vs bronze is a major plot point in The Pharaoh, kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6qUoKmkhblpras

[@lordtirek236]

As I recall, there was a book written about the Klingon that invented the weapon. The main reason for it’s purpose, was for narrow corridor combat- especially for indoor stairway combat. It’s short arc swing made it very functional for differences in elevated combat. But that was the book. I would love to watch an episode in stairway and narrow corridor combat.

[@widdershins5383]

Makes sense, it’s barely wider than a person, can be gripped nice and widely for pushing/controlling opponents, edged for snap attacks. The only thing better is the trench trowel lol

[@spacedinosaur8733]

Yes, and at the time in the book, most Klingons favored large devastating open battlefield weapons that were unwieldly/useless in the corridors protecting the castle.

[@widdershins5383]

@@spacedinosaur8733 a spear is a large battlefield weapon and it’s the most ideal thing for hallway battles. All you gotta do is jab to keep them at a distance, if you get 4-5 others braced in a hedgehog formation, nothings getting through without massive casualties. Even for home defense in modern times a short spear in the dark would be better than anything. You should know your home better than an intruder and all you need is for them to make a noise and stab at it.

[@spacedinosaur8733]

@@widdershins5383 That is true, however if I remember from the book is at this time in Klingon history, the preferred weapons where similar to great swords or battleaxes, which they found was impractical when fighting against Kahless the Unforgettable in the confines of fortress corridors.

[@kevg1617]

The book is just that, a book, by a writer trying to explain the design choices of another writer who had no expertise in martial arts and weapon design. The best weapons for hallways are thrusting weapons, of any kind. The bat'leth is a horrible weapon for defending against thrusts. It's a bad weapon. It works, just not nearly as well as many other options we have and we are not depicted as nearly as warlike and fighting friendly as the klingons

[@zaphod4257]

I really enjoyed this review Skal, I’m sure the designer would as well. From what I understand they tried very hard to make it an effective weapon to fit in with the ideology of Klingon fighting. 👍

[@catblob]

I really enjoyed this - an amazing professional perspective! Also, brilliantly edited and composed video!

[@ClemensLode]

One point to remember is that most races in Star Trek do not use any melee weapons. Having a hard-to-use melee weapon also prevents your enemy from simply picking it up from someone's dead body and using it against you.

[@gideonmele1556]

Especially if it’s heavy and designed for a klingon’s physique. Not to mention the shock effect of a few dudes coming at you with these or seeing a buddy get cut down by one

[@Ocker3]

@@gideonmele1556 yup, in a battle where you mostly fire ranged weapons from cover, getting into Bayonet range is a great way to break your enemy's morale.

[@TheAgent0060]

Only the tough/warriors races use melee alot *cough* Jem Hadar

[@zenogias01]

@@Ocker3 Set phasers to wide angle, sweep the hallway, head back to the rec for drinks and games ;)

[@The1stImmortal]

@@TheAgent0060 amusingly, the Borg also technically melee a lot. It's hard to assimilate someone you just disintegrated, after all

[@brannontirin]

One of the novels addresses the creation of the bat’leth (not the myth, but the real story)… and it was invented partly as a fever dream - and partly as a commando weapon. The warriors in question were going to be fighting close quarters, in tunnels and narrow hallways, against opponents who would be using more traditional heavy swords. The intent was to give up reach… to have a weapon that actually works in narrow hallways. It was never really meant to fight other bat’leth… or out in the open… But it was such a blowout against “normal swords” in close quarters… in a legacy-defining battle… it became a symbol, and replaced the sword.

[@kevg1617]

The novel still addresses a myth, just not the same myth. The real creation of the bat'leth was by a human show writer whose expertise in martial arts and weapon design is non existent.

[@AtlantiansGaming]

​@@kevg1617 Dan Curry was a martial artist outside his work on Star Trek and based the Bat'leth on Chinese weapons.

[@Sk4lli]

@@kevg1617 Wow, you must be fun at parties. I'm pretty sure that part was clear and even mentioned in the video. But in the story, there is a myth and a 'real' origin story. Which is not so different from the real real world.

[@kevg1617]

@@AtlantiansGaming based on certain chinese weapons, but very different in use, function and size. He didn't design it with weaponnefficiency and effectiveness in mind, he designed it with aesthetics as a priority to make the weapon alien and intimidating. It is so far out of the realm of what a warrior race would develop that it really serves the image better than the reality

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@kevg1617 nope the function is the same. it is meant to deflect, catch and fling the enemy weapon away. the points are meant to pierce and or cut. it is also like a lot of wushu weapons meant to be flashy and difficult to learn.

[@starcitizenaxion9956]

I want to see someone use this in a HEMA tournament. It might actually do well considering how much tackling and grappling goes on. Yes I’m aware it’s not a historical euro weapon, but it would still be interesting!

[@dgthe3]

@@CubedSausagefromScarparius SciFMA?

[@MonkTorius]

Glad that the video with the mek'leth is still around and remembered. Mostly because that is actually my mek'leth. I still have it. One of my favorite collection pieces! All in all, great video, thanks Skall!

[@koshi6505]

One headcanon reason I've seen floating around for the bat'leth's peculiar design is because of Klingon history. Kah'less was said to invent the weapon around the same time that the Klingons overthrew their slave overseers. The weird shape come be because they were original tools for other purposes. Maybe a farming implement, or mining tools, or whatever reason an interstellar empire would find the need to enslave other species instead of using robots.

[@The1stImmortal]

Or instead of holograms heh

[@williamalvarez9563]

Mining implement? Farming tool? Yeah I can see it, but don't forget a common trademark of some enslaving cultures throughout history, making slaves fight among themselves for the entertainment of others, that is of course gladiatorial events.

[@princecharon]

One possibly justification for the 'ribs' between the three grips is that they reinforce the central section on a shorter shipboard/indoor variant. That might not be correct, it might even be silly, but since the bat'leth was designed by a skilled martial artist, there was probably some justification for them in his mind (as opposed to the STD version, where I think it was designed by an art major who really wasn't thinking about how it would be used in practical terms).

[@AtlantiansGaming]

art majors are a plague. They ruin everything.

[@Broockle]

ahaha STD version 😁

[@johnkidby7948]

@@AtlantiansGaming As an ex-art major, I can confirm this. XD

[@ryuzayuki1997]

The OG Bat'leth is a weapon I would genuinely buy, even practice using. It's functional and simple yet cool looking. The new one is doing too much.

[@mikegould6590]

The "single grip" version is clearly superior. More versatility, better control, and less likely to mistakenly miss a grip during combat. Odd that it evolved to be worse.

[@LangThoughts]

If you remove the middle spike, Kahless's version is pretty much a halberd blade that can be handled like a quarterstaff.

[@lessterrible8099]

Apparently in scotland there was a similar tradition of giving your opponent an equal weapon theyre inexperianced with to put them at a disadvantage. When dueling a scot using roundshield and broadsword, you were advised to not take a shield if offered one because someone inexperianced with a shield will block high with the shield and blind themself, giving the scot an easy win (at the time most fighters used rapier or saber either without a shield or with a smaller buckler, from what i understand)

[@georgehutchinson3749]

Qapla thanks for using my clip of Mr Wang. liked you idea about halfing the bathleth.. I have one that folds in half.so fit in suitcase..

[@Blakearmin]

I don't even watch Star Trek and I just watched a half hour video on a Klingon weapon. Great delivery and engagement!

[@Cru128]

Can’t wait for Shad to see this and think, “Hm, I wonder what Skall has to say.”

[@JustMe-um8zp]

Scholagladitoria put out one of his own just reciently

[@winterburden]

Shad already declared the Bat'Leth was stupid four years ago.

[@braddl9442]

@@winterburden Shad lord of the pointy stick. But shad will change his views if you give him a good debate with tangible points.

[@LARGO125]

Well, it wasn't invented in medieval/Renaissance Europe... So Shad would consider it crap. His prejudice is hardly hidden. I'm almost positive he fantasizes about a falchion being more lethal than an M4...

[@Cru128]

@@winterburden, yes. I’m aware.

[@Temperans]

If you think about it. This weapon is kind of like a double bearded bill with curved instead of straight spikes. Meaning that it has all the benefits of a bill, but more defense and the shorter poler size means you can use it in small spaces as well as a large ones.

[@themillennialist7261]

Awesome review, Skallagrim. Thanks for doing it. You covered many of the points (no pun intended) that I have sensed playing around with the mild steel batleths I have gotten my hands on. While not the best thing every (obviously), it is a fictional weapon that has gotten a really bad rap in my opinion. It seems like a weapon balanced between a sword, an axe, and a battle pick. It could thrust and stab surprisingly well, slice and chop, and penetrate with the blade tips. Practicing with the angle of the blow and distance meant you could decide what function you wanted to deliver. I sensed from the beginning that there were certain situations you needed to train yourself out of. I first played around with a shorted, lighter version of the Sword of Kahless - much lighter at 32.13 inches. That also meant that when you do an overhead blow, the blade closest to you, wound up aimed at your crouch, so I played with avoiding directly overhead blows and practiced angled blows, which worked very well. Even that mild steel light version penetrated well. I agree, I much prefer the Sword of Kahless design for the grip mechanics. Tight spaces were exactly where I thought they'd shine as well. The biggest disadvantage I have found is the weight for the reach. But as you pointed out, that can be addressed some by the thickness, etc. Thanks for doing this! :)

[@bizarrebraincomics7819]

Great video. Loved it. The Mekleth was intended to work against a Bartlett to catch the large blade and get inside the swing and to work in a more confined space. Qapla' reH thlingan wo' taHjaj !

[@HighmageDerin]

I used to fight with a "boffer" (padded weapons) fighting group in my youth, Someone Made a Bat'leth out of a hell of a lot of PVC pipe and foam. This thing was a monster to fight against. the ability of its user to block and parry then aggressively follow up was amazing. its maker could use it to force our weapons out of position, push us back or off balance, then make the kill strike, and as we were using padded weapons, this was full contact fighting. if the weapons were real, Id be dead a hundred times over. (self taught melee weapon fighting is NOT a good method of learning :) )

[@rikospostmodernlife]

Happens also a lot with butterfly swords and similar twin weapons

[@HighmageDerin]

@Paul Gauthier Im REALLY good with a pole arm spear and staff, decient with Axes and shields. suck hard at every thing else.

[@dallasmoorenumberone]

@Paul Gauthier that's such an interesting concept to learn about too, for most of our history most people didn't learn how to fight you either got lucky enough, a couple times and picked up a few tricks to stay not dead or you didn't. Most training given was how to follow instructions and work together with some basics thrown in.

[@jasonlauritsen5587]

F*cking LARPers...

[@Eyes0penNoFear]

@@jasonlauritsen5587 ☝️ secretly wishing he could join in.

[@artsy_dragon_creations]

I immediately thought the the Chinese Deer Knife was a better design with similar features to the Bat’leth. If the Bat’leth had only two points instead of four, or if the smaller points were just closer to the middle so you get a longer single blade length with the larger blades, it would still be recognizable but a little more practical. I’ve always thought there was merit to the design, but I also think there are a couple features that could be reworked to be a bit better

[@johnsmithfakename8422]

Last time I checked, The Bat'leth is a giant Chinese deer knife. I remember watching a documentary about the Bat'leth and the prop maker used said knife as inspiration.

[@artsy_dragon_creations]

@@johnsmithfakename8422 the deer knife is pretty similar, but the knife has two prongs that face backwards and two that face forwards, whereas the Bat’leth has all four prongs facing forward. That’s a minor difference sure, but it does affect how each one is used in a pretty significant way. Also the metal portion that protects the hand on the deer knife is curved outward, and creates a sharp angle where it intersects the forward prongs, which creates a pinch point that would allow you to more easily trap and control an opponent blade and also release it, whereas the Bat’leth only has the gaps between the prongs to trap another weapon, which is harder to use as effectively. The original Bat’leth, with the single hand grip and a small spike in the center, is the best design in terms of practicality, with the smaller prongs being closer to the center and having larger gaps to allow better use of the weapon capturing abilities, but it could still be further improved just a bit.

[@Griede26]

ive come to exppect some nerdyness from you over the years, but that scifi speal at the bginning floored me. loved iit. especiically since i traveled through that same stargate.

[@Walkyrjenny]

I notice in your test cuts you're hitting where a sword's sweet spot would be. Which is what you've trained yourself to do, so well done. Unfortunately, that same spot on a bat'leth is where the two blades meet, so you're starting the cut with the inner blade and completing it with the outer blade. That change contributes to the roughness of the cut. I wonder how the cuts would look if you took them entirely on the inner blade.

[@swagromancer]

Great observation. That warrants some more testing.

[@hic_tus]

i think that in the end historical weapons are based on actual human body mechanics, through use and experience, so you can't really go much better than what's already done, apart from materials or brand new techs. in fantasy and sci-fi, deviating from a "standard" design to make exotic weapons, while still using humanoid characters, makes weird and a bit awkward things. it would be interesting to me to imagine weapons used by non humanoids beings, still pretty hard to imagine, but a lot of fun? like an octopus-like guy with several tentacles using a series of small shields chained together to create a flexible shell around it's soft body and using 2 or more of the tentacles to jab nasty pointy blades into the opponent when an opening is available... right i'm writing that down.

[@stuflames4769]

I think body mechanic understanding and, more importantly, freedom of material usage has expanded much since the era where melee weapons were employed. The cost to create these weapons was much greater in times past. The spread of world knowledge and use is also far greater. Yes, the reward if finding a good design and technique was also greater in times past, but using the advantages of today may still provide innovation and insight not commonly seen, previously.

[@yengereng9962]

im imagining an octopus doing a one "man" phalanx and i would like to see it myself

[@greyvr4336]

On the subject of materials, I've been thinking. You know what would be interesting? Take a Viking sword, Oakeshott type X. which is like a long horse shoe on a deep fuller. Excellent cutter but a tad heavy because it's wide at the end. Make the horseshoe of an edge from your usual high carbon steel. 0.5-5.0 cm in from the edge, just like the originals. For the center beyond the edge.... aluminum. Or even polymer. See if you can get it to feel like an epee, but cut like a type x.

[@hic_tus]

@@greyvr4336 i guess alluminium doesn't weld properly with steel? to put both materials together with steel edges you'd need a pretty tough glue, or dunno, some scifi tech like nanomachines and stuff...? also thinking, steel wouldn't be great for an early ocean environment, with all that salt and stuff.. and even in a slightly acidic atmosphere. so, how would a civilization go through an earth like middleage in those conditions? nah. metalwork would be at stakes for a long long time, until they discover some particular alloy or something. darn rust man lol

[@greyvr4336]

@@hic_tus There are indeed complex interactions of steel with aluminum. I don't know all of them, but I do know they can work, as AR barrels are steel and the reciver is aluminum. It's held togeather with a nut and threading, and you paint grease between to prevent interaction of the metals. So while it would be a complex idea, it's doable. As to salt water, that's not a change from an all steel sword as was used at the time of the vikings and their type x, so....

[@viktorberzinsky4781]

Now the thing about certain Chinese weapons was that they weren't meant for war, they were developed from a number of tools or ritual objects according to some, that someone could pull out if they had nothing else on hand. This is what some have speculated to be the origins of the wind and fire wheels. This isn't so far fetched as the monks spade began as a sort of combination tool carried around by monks, but over time became more stylized and lost it's general tool traits.

[@planescaped]

Also for most Chinese history weapons were illegal for civilians to own, so they'd come up with creative weapon-like objects.

[@jennoscura2381]

You see this with Okinawan weapons. Tools became weapons.

[@pianotm]

The Bat'leth design is actually based on the configuration of the Sun and Moon knife and the shape of the Deer Horn knife.

[@haenselundgretel654]

What a great and really balanced video with sooo many very well talked about topics! Very good, mate!

[@TheToxicNomad]

One thing that we are all circling about in the discussion, and it boils down to being a really well thought ought design is the fact, that Bat'leth is a combination of a sword, that can be used with (almost) full weapon reach effectively, and a great trench weapon that works really well in confined space of a spaceship boarding action. All it takes to change the use case is a change of a grip of your front hand, and you are adapted to the situation at hand. Also, if used in grappling, it would probably be really bloody hard to grasp or wrench the sword out of the users hand, since the handles would be really hard to grasp from the front of the weapon, and you have to contest with the blade part protecting it. Oh, and it would have probably be a pretty decent defence against any crazy wildlife trying to eat your face, like rabid Targs and whatnot.

[@thekaxmax]

halfswording allows that with swords too.

[@Asghaad]

@@thekaxmax halfswording is stab only, this thing is an axe, sword and staff in one with hooks for grappling on top of it, its a very versatile design specific for very close combat in tight corridors of ships/caves

[@kevg1617]

@@Asghaad It doesn't thrust well at all and thrusting us the single best use of a weapon in tight quarters. It may look like a good weapon, but it's design does not fit a warrior society hellbent on waging war to the best of their abilities. It looks like a ceremonial or ritualistic type weapon used perhaps in honor duels or the like, not as a weapon for war

[@greyvr4336]

@@thekaxmax Yes, but the space taken up by the half sword isn't as large as with the Bat'leth. If you imagine the bat'leth as an item much like the half sword, but extended sideways to provide more leverage and to allow a line to be closed with more economy of motion.... Bat'leth as a wrestling shield with points on the end, like taking a Talhoffer dueling shield and cutting it down to the minimum. Really captured my imagination, this idea that the bat'leth isn't a sword.... but a shield.

[@RagnarLodbrok1]

Regarding carrying a bat'leth, something similar to a bow case would probably work well. While those are better for cavalry, some infantry who carried both bows and spears also used them. It seems like it would still be a bit on the cumbersome side and like it might be difficult to draw quickly, but as a marching case it would make sense.

[@brodriguez11000]

Seems carrying the weapon would be a problem. At least swords have a sheath to protect the blade and the wearer.

[@user-kf6vv2qq1h]

@@brodriguez11000 You don't think like a true klingon. It's the enemy who needs protection.

[@randomdude8202]

Carrying it on your back can be plausible. Its not like a sword, its sheath doesn't have to be conventional. You can use a sheath which has its opening on its side, rather than on its top. So you put it inside form the side of the sheath on your back, so there is also nothing to stop you when you draw it. It will also wont fall since it will stay on your back on an angle.

[@markgresch9944]

Carrying on the back seems to me to be the best bet. Especially when you have access to say a small coathook to hook one of the loops onto or as silly as it may sound, just space velcro it to yourself.

[@planescaped]

A simple back hook like a coat hanger on a bandolier would work I think, it would also make it very easy to retrieve. Honestly carrying a bat'leth is the least perplexing part of their use unless you're referring to the godawful and stupid Discovery version.

[@TorQueMoD]

This was a great deep dive into the design of the Bat'leth. Thanks for sharing :)

[@kaizen5023]

7:38 - "When I relax my grip it immediately turns," YES, I've played around with a lightweight aluminum one owned by a friend and agree, this makes it feel really weird and unwieldy despite the relatively light weight.

[@kenjincapers]

Nearly 8 years later we finally get this video. Yay.

[@greenslime6568]

I remember watching a video Shad did on the subject a few years ago, and I recall that he was particularly harsh on this weapon. It is interesting to hear you explaining that it does have some positive, practical qualities ( as well as some drwabacks).

[@planescaped]

Shadiversity is a bit too reactionary and into hot takes for my tastes...

[@galilool6053]

@@planescaped All shadiversity ever does is get angry at everything. Never seen him say anything positive about anything

[@treycampbell759]

This Bat'leth video ( among others) is absolutely and irrevocable why I thoroughly enjoy this channel. The Badass Bat'leth test montage (vignette?) Is perfect example of why I pull up.

[@ronkrueger-capt_koron6112]

I've read and was verified by Armin Shimmerman who played Quark, that he was taught how to use the bat'leth by the martial artist that created the weapon. I asked Armin at a convention where I met him. Two of the actors that portrayed Klingons, Robert O'Reilly (Gowron) and J.G. Hertzler (Martok) did a mock battle at the same convention using bat'leths owned by a couple of us. J.G. used mine. I'm in a Klingon based club that provided an honor guard for them when the went up on stage. We also threw a birthday party for J.G's 50th birthday, and we got to know them personally. I have pictures. Thanks for reviewing the weapon.

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

The "extra" durability might be much less optional if 2 Klingons are hammering them into each other. Of course that 5.3kg variant is probably just the historically accurate one. Modern ones are likely lighter.

[@ThePhillyDz]

Actually it's the weight of a D'har master's specs, or the Klingon sword martial arts master's sword.

[@hanelyp1]

@@ThePhillyDz Which may be for sparing or judicial combat, not what you'd take into combat against a serious enemy.

[@nerscyllam4735]

Given the tone of that scene I see it as something of a flex on Dax's part, picking a heavier more traditional style weapon that would be difficult for someone of her stature and build in order to make a point.

[@poposterous236]

I was very much expecting you to tear this thing to shreds, you actually make it seem even more badass. K'plah!

[@frost8077]

I'm just impressed you're able to use it so well. It seems to be more functional than it appears at least. One weapon I really want to try swinging around is the khopesh, just because it looks awful for weight balance, so I'm curious as to how it feels to use one.

[@nomnomgoblin8901]

In a trek channel exploring the bat'leth in Klingon culture it mentioned as the legend also comes with Kahless carving a statue and reaping a crop with it. So in universe it could have originated from a farming or artisan tool that was adopted as a weapon in Kahless' original unification campaign and refined from there, with Klingon tradition and stubborn nature keeping them in use even if it was unwieldy.

[@KageRyuu6]

I mean ship's cutlasses weren't often carried or worn either, they were kept in racks or barrels in the armory and distributed as needed, so I can definitely see Klingon ships doing the same. Maybe some in security lockers distributed around the ship as well?

[@PaulGuy]

Even in the shows, we never see Klingons carrying them around, they only get them when they need them. They probably carry their disruptors and small blades all the time, but only carry the big blades when they know a fight is coming.

[@Fawkes42]

Klingons seem to just keep them on the walls of certain rooms, even aboard ships at war. I guess they don't think a security locker is really worth the trouble

[@joshuaspencer1346]

Good point!

[@Macrochenia]

@@Fawkes42 Makes sense given that Klingon society expects duels, including duels to the death, on a regular basis. They'd be far less concerned about securing weapons when you're encouraged to fight over things all the time anyway.

[@LWolf12]

I'm pretty sure they do just keep them on a weapon rake. But wear their disruptors and dagger around the ship. I think it was somewhat shown in the episode where Riker spent time on a Klingon ship.

[@ObservantPiratePlus]

Having learned Chinese martial techniques since 1973, and since the creator of the Bat'Leth also knew such techniques, I find that my own Bat'Leth lends itself very well to being used with Chinese techniques. And like the series itself it's from, the ST:Discovery Bat'Leth sux gagh.

[@braddl9442]

The discovery stuff is idiotic cause the writers have no clue what they are doing. The show is so terrible.

[@singletona082]

The discovery bat'leth along with the klingons that made it are 'appearance over substance.' Give me the space biker russian viking samurai.

[@abicol6010]

@@braddl9442 bra. Have you seen star trek the next generation? Sure, they don't hit the mark with every episode, but most of the are widely regarded as written well.

[@braddl9442]

@@abicol6010 But we are talking about discovery.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

@@abicol6010 Are they though? LOL from a young kids point of view maybe. If you critique most episodes using an adult mind, most of them fall apart pretty quickly. They're often quite terrible. They're nostalgic though, and there wasn't much else on at the time for people with imaginations so we hold onto their memory as being greater than the actual sum of their parts. I'm not sure why.

[@yohojones]

Love you Skall. Happy New Year.

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

I would love to see sparring with something like this against a sabre.

[@DUCKDUDE4100]

I like to think of the Kahless story in the same way that we often think about our own mythology, as a metaphor. If that story's taken as a metaphorical reference to an event in Klingon history I think that at that volcano he taught the klingons to use iron and the carbon extracted from their hair to make steel weaponry.

[@peterreist5489]

As an odd aside: within certain Chinese martial arts there is the chan zi dao, or cicada wing spear, which bears a superficial resemblence to the bat'leth. Not sure if this was something that was known by the original Trek prop designers or not.

[@janjanjul]

He shows one in the video, though he mentions it by another name.

[@oldmangimp2468]

It's January 4, and I got 6 inches of snow at my house in northern Alabama yesterday. Time for a Skal video!

[@GinLuna]

Seeing this video reminded me of Zen-Aku, the duke org. I've never seen a weapon analysis on, seems impractical at a glance weight-wise, but I absolutely love the design.

[@planescaped]

His sword thing looks cool, but it'd be near unusable due to how much the blade extends beneath the handle, half of ones swings would run a serious risk of stabbing oneself in the gut/kidneys. :P

[@Templarfreak]

22:33 i want to say one thing about this: the disjointed grips DOES provide ONE thing: if you _want_ your hand to be at a very specific grip position, and you put your hand there, it's pretty much going nowhere, but with the singlegrip design your hand could potentially slip because there's nothing to catch and lock your hand in place and you'll lose your grip position and potentially not be able to do whatever specific thing you wanted to do with it. i think that's a distinct advantage the disjointed multiple grips have over a continuous singular grip and in the show, we do actually still see a pretty even amount of both at various points which to me does suggest that they are actually two different schools of thought in bat'leth design and usage.

[@ratoh1710]

Not really, while your hand can technically slip I highly doubt anyone would consider a greater variety of grip positions a detriment, and if you are concerned about your hand slipping there are better solutions than that, like textured grips or high friction gloves. Leather gloves with a leather wrapped handle gives a very good grip.

[@robinthrush9672]

Good of Matt to allow you to follow up your 2014 video.

[@evensgrey]

Officially in Star Trek, the bat'leth is also used as a tool for harvesting crops and sculpting wood.

[@redshirt0479]

Excellent video. I've wanted a good counter to that _one_ video for a long time from someone that works with blades. Also a couple things that won't have any impact overall on your feelings but I think are important The Disco Bat'leth was literally made by extremists, bordering on cultists, in-universe. No one else really uses that design and we haven't seen it since Season 1 in canon. The scene with the mass has two other possible explanations. 1) It was originally in pounds in the script and someone changed it to kilograms without converting it. This has happened before with hilarious results. It's never anything than affects the story, just a reasonable gaff by an editor. 2) Jadzia Dax is trying to prove herself in that scene because she wants to fulfill the blood oath of the previous host of the Dax Symbiont to hunt down and kill a dangerous fugitive that murdered his godchildren. Picking an overweight blade for her duel with the one person on the team that objected to her going (and is also a master of the martial art in question) would fit her personality and drive the point through. I do wish you included that bit from Worf's duel against Duras as Duras was using a conventional sword. Personally I think it's a great weapon, but it's also specialized for corridor fighting which makes sense given Q'onos's topography while a fair number of weapons in real life are more for use in open environments. Basically it was competing more against short swords/sabers than polearms. Modern Klingons _normally_ just use disruptors with blades only coming out for duels or intense CQC (the latter is also true of modern soldiers) Also now that you've finally done this famous weapon, does that mean we'll eventually see you cover other blades from the franchise like the Vulcan Lirpa or the Andorian Ushaan-tor?

[@chrisheard5727]

It's not as effective as a broadsword because you can't remove the pommel.

[@tannercellich1077]

You can if you’re not a coward

[@michaelpettersson4919]

That a horrible design flaw that needs to be rectified. Let's turn the inner points in to pommel points. Suddenly a weapon with TWO pommels! 😉😄

[@GuitarsRockForever]

Too true, how can you end your opponent rightly, if your weapon has no removable pommel?

[@zenogias01]

@@GuitarsRockForever Throw that sumbitch like a boomerang is what you do ;)

[@CazadorSlayer]

"We wanted to make it seem more defensive!" proceeds to remove everything defensive about the original design. That 'new model' looks more like some kind of wonky half-melted Daedric Bow than an actual melee weapon... I'm glad you mentioned it as a polearm! I was just thinking it'd be very nasty as a sort of...fanciful bardiche.

[@danielrath6352]

I think it´s funny that a "brawling" type weapon translates so well into sci-fi, as many encounters are fought in cramped corridors.

[@williamshattuck1825]

I really appreciate this video. I have always felt that the true strength of the Bat'leth is it's versatility. Also I feel that some houses might have their own variation.

[@gagarin777]

Tod and Matt Easton have a series on weird weapons. Now I would really like to see them do Bat'leth - sword fight.

[@themittonmethod1243]

Entertaining! both you and Matt Easton finally getting around to talking about the bat'leth within a week or so of each other! cheers from Vancouver!

[@thepayne7862]

Great breakdown of the weapon, love the critique of these tv and movie weapons. Wouldn't mind seeing you react to some of the sword fights from the British tv series Sharpe's rifles. In the show it's pretty much Sharpe who is more of brawler fighting against trained swordsmen. So the fights are usually pretty dirty.

[@k_the_v]

@Skallagrim I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Kahless variant/-style bat'leth. Cutting/thrusting point in the middle, more flexible grip options and binding/blocking points on the back of the two main arms.

[@martinmcclure1066]

Why does Klingon always sound like normal words but someone had to push out a wicked fart mid way through saying it

[@hi14993]

As for the story of how it came to be at the beginning: What if the story was changed over the years by way of oral tradition? What if say hair was used as a source of carbon? What if they had managed to find a way to use lava as a heat source to work the metal? Early Klingon may have not developed an efficient enough furnace with non molten materials.

[@TheStraycat74]

22:03 20+ years ago I was a LARPer and I made a boffer version of a Bat'leth because I took two-Hand Mastery and needed a backup weapon. I Slung a Bat'Leth across my back on a quick release knot. Since magical disarms usually come in twos, I had a HUGE two handed Hammer, a two handed sword sheathed at my hip, and the Bat'Leth under my cloak that most people didn't know about until they had popped both disarms. Just suggesting that there is a way to carry it. HECK, put a magnet in your armor at each shoulder blade, put Bat'Leth over should onto magnet. Solved.

[@braunmcash3117]

Very astute analysis. I am a professional fight choreographer and historical weapons instructor of 43 years practice (Highland TV series, seasons 3-6, HLNDR Endgame, many features, TV series, Stratford and Shaw Festivals, Canadian national opera co, etc) and also write a series on Patreon regarding historical weapons and practice and did one a while back on designing sci fi and fantasy weapons. I am gratified that people with a solid background in real-world weapons can do such an open-minded evaluation of weapons such as this.