Vinland Saga: Was I Wrong? Who Cares About Realism Anyway?

[@leilanz8325]

In my opinion, since it's a "saga", I think that the superhuman feats are like other people saying "that guy is such a good warrior that he felled several men with a swing of his axe" and the story runs with that...

[@danielantony1882]

That doesn't always happen, though. It's a rare scene with an extremely exceptional character: Thorkell the tall. That MF was known IRL to rip through mail.

[@Hato1992]

After last Skalla video about Vinland saga I realised that it didn't bother me at all, because it's saga. Some unnatural things can happen in saga.

[@مثاليفراغ]

Great point, дружище

[@ATurkeySandwichGAME]

Ive always though the sagas were based on real stories and events but were embelished more and more over time until they were finally written down centuries later

[@noukan42]

@@danielantony1882 it is not just Thorkell, Thorfin does that stuff as well, and later on a repeating crossbow shows up

[@rafaelcerdeira5883]

Personally, when it comes to Vinland Saga I don't think that "historical accuracy" was the main focus the author wanted to get across, at least not in the first season of the show, Which makes it even more impressive, most of it is in the background and broad plot, and in that context of a background setting it's stupidity impressive how much the author actually tries. You can see the pins holding the cloaks, actual reasonable armor for the time, types of architecture that varie depending on the region, what type of live stock and crops, lots of little details that didn't really need to be there. They could just have had the guys in the background wear the same generic pelts, leather armor with lots of belts, eye liner and dreadlocks like many other milion-dollar projects

[@averyshaw2142]

At the current point in the manga, the author is taking month long breaks just so he can research native American customs and language, which is a testament to how much he cares about the accuracy of the backround, even if he sacrifices some accuracy in combat

[@kookykoruc1827]

@@averyshaw2142 He got some accuracy in combat tho Spoilers for the baltic war arc When thorfinn is surrounded by vikings they hold some realistic stances with their weapons, they still get beaten up by a blonde midget but it was a nice detail

[@DBT1007]

the same happen to shingeki no kyojin. it's not about realism that the main plot. it's about the author make the world somewhat REALISTIC, but the main plot is about stuff in author's mind. it's called as "historical fantasy" or something. and it's better than some tryhard realism "historical story". like the vikings series there..

[@ridleyroid9060]

Makoto did a lot of research to depict the world as truly authentically as he could in his story, and truly people seeing the feats of strength of Thorkell, Thorfin or Thors and crying "boo anime unrealism boo" is just the height of irony for me. The manga does a better job at depicting the viking age than many other western live action productions.

[@TimmehJay]

People seem to forget that you can enjoy fantasy and realism at the same time! Absolutely love your channel, btw. It's helped me get through some rough times.

[@Tacticaviator7]

@@SirHavok You need to remember that realism=\= historical accuracy, you can have a game that has perfect historical facts but the gameplay itself is not realistic and vice versa.

[@korinoriz]

Well we kinda did this to ourselves. The past decade or so there's been a massive increase about learning "the science" and "realism" of fiction. As of a result people, mostly subconciously but conciously too, feel "smarter" for critiquing fiction or "knowing it's not real" which is really dumb because everyone knows fiction isn't real on some level. Our media has also evolved to cater to this with a lot being based on "science" and "realism" it snowballed to today. Don't get me wrong it can be fun to point at how silly fiction can be or learn the reality of some aspects. However, you basically "can't have fun" anymore because people will tear most fiction to shreds these days. It's super irritating cause these same people go on about how great myths are or old cartoons are and "aren't as dumb as the ones these days" when if you take a step back they're just as ridiculous. Dante's Inferno is basically a self insert fanfiction for one.

[@johndododoe1411]

@@korinoriz Dante's inferno is specifically bad for mixing his fiction with the reality (as then perceived) of Hell, making people believe some of his added "facts" that weren't in any real source on the topic.

[@Grimm-A]

@@SirHavok womans fighted wars, included on the nazis side Black ppl did not fight for nazis, but i think anyone can understand why that wouldnt happen, and black ppl did fight a lot of wars... they were a llt of times in history both hated and fighting in the same sides of the war Also no one cared about realism when there were only white straight mans fighting wars so ._.

[@Rand0mPeon]

@@Grimm-A Surprisingly, there actually _were_ black soldiers fighting on the side of the nazis. Mostly coming from Africa, they joined a side to participate in the war and returned back home afterward. Being veterans from the biggest war the world had ever seen made them respected members of their community, for those that survived, anyway.

[@WhiteFang103]

Askeladd makes Vinland Saga so great. Literally just from how a character is written and how that character impacts the story is pretty much already a reason to watch the show. Very memorable character.

[@Kreinsamer]

He's like Vegeta. He's a terrible person who has committed countless horrible atrocities, but he's such a cool character that you can't help but love him.

[@dudeguy8686]

Vinland Saga is definitely "anime". While it takes massive liberties with dates, people's histories, and physical capabilities, it does tell a good story full of character and themes. "Viking" is the backdrop, but the problems faced are more timeless: from the cost and horrors of war, to the motivations and philosophies of men, whether peasant, soldier, or king. I can't recommend it for historical accuracy, but if you like your character dramas violent, it's a wild ride.

[@Intranetusa]

It's a shame that animes like Vinland Saga don't have realistic fighting like in other animes such as Maria the Virgin Witch. In the MTVW anime, the characters use historically authenthic weapons, armor, and even fighting styles.

[@hjalmarrsviakappa9666]

While it's far from fully historically accurate, it's still better than pretty much any other big "viking" TV show I've seen, like HBO's vikings for instance

[@XDieKillDieX]

Idk why everyone has a problem with the Vikings tv show, what you said pretty much applies exactly to that as well, minus the anime part, obviously.

[@alexwagner9674]

Vinland Saga has ONE OF THE BEST character developments ever.

[@hebleh5771]

@@Intranetusa Then all duels and fights end in about 3 strikes, not really engaging and dramatic for mass audiences who cannot pick up the subtleties of HEMA techniques

[@s7robin105]

I would call the show historical fantasy. it’s kinda like the AC games, it is set in a period with some real figures but there’s some crazy stuff too. I personally loved the show and highly recommend it

[@Ranstone]

Like the fact that the pope is fighting Aliens from space, and your character is in the Matrix. ;P

[@AndrePluz]

@@Ranstone It goes crazier then that in the most recent games, especially Odyssey XD

[@blakebailey22]

"Nioh" is another example

[@shazzatulanam6680]

More like historical fiction than historical fantasy.

[@Red_Bastion]

@@shazzatulanam6680 I'm splitting hairs here, but I'd think it'd actually be more historical fantasy than historical fiction. Historical fiction just means it uses historical figures or events but didn't happen, the term "fantasy" implies more supernatual elements to a story, as then the story is 'fantastical', rather than just fictitious

[@NevisYsbryd]

The matter with Vinland Saga is that the guy who chopped the ship and such is very much along the lines of a Greek or Norse 'hero'; he is an outright freak, and the _most_ extreme case of the small handful of such characters in the series (in the first season/two cours, there are approximately _three_ of these characters). That ship-cutting and boat-jumping stuff was more or less the pinnacle *among* the superhumans. More importantly, it is _treated_ as-such in-verse, with people responding in awe, disbelief, terror, and reverence, and how that freakish strength affects battle (and how a more 'normal' human might overcome it) is explored as it would be _were_ such saga-esque figures real, because everyone and everything else remains grounded.

[@thevikingsock8527]

An axe doesnt work like that nonetheless

[@danielantony1882]

@@thevikingsock8527 Yes. That is why it's fantasy wishfulfilment with Thorkell.

[@EnraiChannel]

@@thevikingsock8527 And?

[@TheHKZero]

@@thevikingsock8527 Neither does 90% of holywood action combat. Take for instance 300 which may as well be titled 300 ways we mess up combat. But honestly, who cares. Lots of action set pieces drop into the rule of cool and that's all the scene being talked about is. It's an establishing shot of two guys who are so massively above the rest that it's like a hot axe throw a ships mast.

[@Chraan]

@@thevikingsock8527 There is not a single book, movie, series or game where everything works like it should.

[@lancecorporalveteran0621]

I watched the series I didn't mind it because there were only a handful of characters who kind of went fantastical with their abilities but they were presented as exceptions not the rule therefore seen as legendary by other characters but even these exceptional characters were as mortal as their opponents so I think against heavy odds it always equaled out the weighty unrealistic fantasy abilities with the realistic abilities of their opponents.

[@Grimm-A]

Yap, the super strong is indeed crazy, but is not anime i destroy a place with my fist crazy or jump into a fliying tree to fly faster. Is just super strong and no more than 4/5 and only 2 of them are really important to the plot, the others exist just to say "hey, there are others like this" and yap, they can still die in 1-10 fights or so

[@thehutch4823]

@@Grimm-A as someone else pointed out the show is called Vineland Saga, the characters aren't even that strong compared to some of the real sagas.

[@maxhensley1685]

With regards to the ship scene, I'd note that the anime is, as one might imagine, more anime than the manga. The manga is pretty grounded as action series go, and the anime hews pretty close to it, but then the scenes which aren't drawn directly from the manga, like the opening scenes of the anime, are significantly less grounded than the content which the author actually wrote and choreographed.

[@maxw7118]

Hi Max Greetings from Max

[@Mithguar]

You are not wrong... But then there was Thorkel... He was also pretty broken in the manga.

[@Intranetusa]

It's a shame that animes like Vinland Saga don't have realistic fighting like in other animes such as Maria the Virgin Witch. In the MTVW anime, the characters use historically authenthic weapons, armor, and even fighting styles.

[@MaliciousMollusc]

I remember thinking when I saw the guy cut the ship mast "This guy must be a Einherjar."

[@EmberBright2077]

I've only read the manga, and I heavily disagree with that. It seems like most main characters are Spartan IIs who can throw trees, run up castle walls, cut through armour like butter (though armour is just generally worthless in that universe anyway tbh), etc. It kind of ruins the gritty war/revenge story that I'm supposed to take seriously when it's mechanics are such bullshit.

[@mr.gunzaku437]

I was surprised a manga and anime was made about Scandinavian life at the time. Even though it's way overboard with the powers of the characters.

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

It's almost a saga power scale.

[@TocsTheWanderer]

It's based on the sagas. The sagas themselves have plenty of fantasy within them.

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

@@TocsTheWanderer quite a lot

[@darken2417]

They also got quite a few cultural things correct. Although in common Japanese fashion they strongly bork the Christian theology side of things at some points. It also quite quickly transitions away from Scandinavian life toward raiding England.

[@TocsTheWanderer]

@@darken2417 Another issue is that by 1000AD, a large chunk of Scandinavians, even viking raiders, were Christian. Yet they're acting like Cnut is an outlier or something, some of them even acting like they'd never heard of Christianity before they listened to the priest.

[@superfire6463]

My standard for "realism" in a movie/show is: it doesn't need to be realistic, it just needs to be consistent

[@Arkay24]

More of this, for crying out loud

[@Vagabond671]

This honestly made me appreciate you more. We all need to be able to appreciate other people's perspectives and points of view, as well as being able to critique ourselves every once in awhile. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from the island of Guam!

[@camaradafawkes7382]

That's why I tend to value Skall's opinion on certain topics.Humble enough to accept some level of healthy criticism and having no problem in saying "hey, I might be mistaken about this" if necessary

[@curtissarcher999]

Hey Skall, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your willingness to self examine. Self introspection is a valuable thing that is very rare to see, especially in a "public setting" such as a fairly popular youtube channel. Thank you for that. :)

[@DeNihility]

2:42 "A World War 2 setting where everybody fights with swords" Not exactly "Everyone", but Mad Jack Churchill fought with a sword. More sword-on-sword action also did happen in the Asia/Pacific conflicts as well.

[@dakotarandolph4714]

Well, spoilers... We kinda move away from the idea of viking battles and such and move into a retrospective on pacifism and finding meaning in life as well as what it means to redeem yourself. That and the story is now about Thorfinn buying his freedom from slavery and becoming a man and eventually voyaging to the New World to find Vinland which is quite the experience so far

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

Thanks for depicting that.

[@Intranetusa]

Does that mean he goes on to fighting/raiding Native American & Inuit villages now?

[@dakotarandolph4714]

@Itachirevived its probably one of my favorite moments in fiction

[@dakotarandolph4714]

@@Intranetusa no he becomes a pacifist like his father. Currently they are in a barter/trading relationship with a tribe of Native Americans. So far it's going ok but time will only tell what conflict will erupt

[@clangford1212]

@@dakotarandolph4714 If it follows historical precedent, they will all die. If the author is a good writer, he will make Thorofin's pacifism the root cause of his family's slaughter.

[@Angrycapitalist]

I personally loved the saga method of telling stories in the anime/ manga It's slightly mythical but not overly so

[@FromAgonyToLight]

It takes a great man to admit his most sensitive follies, you surprise me with your depths of compassion, respect, and humility every time Skall.

[@trifontrifonov4297]

Here's the short of it. The anime nature of the fights does not matter. Yes it pushes realism to the brink and some of the action scenes in the anime were made more unrealistic and.... well...anime, but in the end the fights do not matter. The true strength of the show is in it characters and story. Of transporting you to a different time period and telling you the kind of story you will still remember years later and leave you quietly shedding manly tears.

[@mechablade5327]

I love your channel skall, mostly cuz of these types of videos and your attitude towards this back and forth with your community!

[@ATurkeySandwichGAME]

"I dont know why some people still thinks im some kind of pedantic killjoy who hates fantasy?" Thats exactly what some pedantic killjoy who hate fantasy would say

[@inspektical2393]

Thanks for giving your prespective on it. And as someone who has Vinland Saga as their favorite manga of all time, I respect you sticking to your guns about not feeling like watching the anime still. It's not for everyone.

[@SmileyD1125]

If you liked Rurouni Kenshin for its redemption story, you'll definitely like Vinland Saga. Rurouni Kenshin is based on actual historical figures and events and they do absolute bullshit superhuman stuff as well but you still loved the series, so I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to see past Vinland Saga's fantasy like superhuman depictions and appreciate the story and characters.

[@blakebailey22]

same thing for the game "Nioh"

[@thorfinn518]

Wait what?

[@yuritrasimaco5201]

I kinda understand, I thought I cared about realism untill I saw the Baki from Netflix and absolutely liked it haha

[@KurNorock]

My issue with his first video was that he never even bothered to watch the show. I don't care if he likes the show or not (i never made it past episode 8 myself) but there is no possible way he could know if he likes the show without ever bothering to watch it. He makes claims about what the show is SUPPOSED to be and then rags on the show for supposedly not living up to those assumptions. All of which he couldn't possibly know, because he never watched it. It's the epitome of straw-maning.

[@necromax13]

yup. i don't get it. people are praising him for self examining yet he doesn't do it? still comes out as a self absorbed nerd that's still making opinions without actually knowing what he's talking about.

[@morrigankasa570]

I have no problem with unrealistic stuff in a Fantasy yet "Historical" setting. That WW2 with Swords thing sounds awesome same for the Roman with Guns thing.

[@Amy_the_Lizard]

Exactly! Romans with guns would be absolutely terrifying

[@Stan_Delone]

Funny thing is, both of this kiiinda describe Warhammer 40K. There's at least a couple Roman themed Space Marine chapters and most Imperial Guard regiments are based on WW2/WW1 armies and often give their officers swords, which they actually use in combat.

[@morrigankasa570]

@@Stan_Delone Perhaps, but taking into account these ideas. I think a better version of that would be a combination between Skyrim-esque Open World meets Civilization games, combined with the various Cultures mythology/magic. You progress through the game as a certain culture/group building your society as a time traveler sent into the past to do that. It still very Old World/Fantasy but you alone can have advanced weaponry, knowledge, and materials facing a Big Fantastical Enemy who may have made alliances with the various other cultures, they don't attack your society directly but seek out magical artifacts to bring the Enemy into the world and the end of the game is you and your army facing the enemy. Additionally have various game modes that are related to real world time-frames. So you could set it the early 1900s type time but set it so for whatever reason no one has guns or other weaponry of the time. Yet could also set it to be the BC and early AD time-frame yet you have guns more advanced eventually while your enemies at most use Flintlocks.

[@johndododoe1411]

Best old setting with guns show was probably Baz Luhrman's version of Romeo and Juliette. Completely worked.

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

And what if, like in Wolfenstein, the Nazis actually succeed at unleashing occult forces as part of the war engine?

[@rango962]

I would still recommend trying it out. While it has ridiculous shit in it. It is still a great story and more about the characters and political intruiges. I view it as a romanticized version of "historical" pls give it a try. The superhuman feeds don't really matter in the big picture

[@AesirUnlimited]

Not to mention the fact that the unrealistic actions are usually seen as unbelievable by everyone else in the show as well. Thorkell the tall and Thors the Troll are seen as absolute monsters by everyone else around them. These men are living legends. The kind you might see in an old viking saga. I think the unrealistic actions being seen as insane by people in the show itself makes it justified. Thors is one of a kind, and everyone else in Vinland saga knows it. I think Skall saw the insane things that Thors and Thorkell did in that beginning scene, and assumed that literally everyone in the show is like them. When in actuality they are two men who are seen as absolute monsters by all other Vikings. They’re quite literally mythical heroes in a saga.

[@lorddukealayeneclipse3317]

Yeah also, it's not like there are many of them. It's pretty grounded in reality

[@AesirUnlimited]

@@lorddukealayeneclipse3317 I wouldn’t go that far. It’s more appropriate to say that it’s grounded in myth and legend. It’s a Saga after all.

[@LuxisAlukard]

"Too anime" is just fine argument for "I don't like this". Also, thanks for sharing your knowledge about sagas and other Viking texts. Cheers! P.S. What's that stone building in the begining of the video?

[@SefniVinalonn]

After hearing your thoughts, I can say, read the manga. It doesn't have a lot of the stuff that seem to bother you the most. That ship scene never happens in the manga. The battle is referenced but never shown. The anime studio added it, and as a fan of the manga, I don't like it. The manga overall is significantly less "anime" and shouldn't bother you with that stuff very much at all. The second arc is extremely low key and builds up to a battle at the end that is quite more based in realism than the prologue arc. I would definitely recommend you at least try the manga.

[@samarkand1585]

Yeah manga doesn't have tree logs-throwing Thorkell...oh wait it does. Doesn't have super-acrobatic spear user... scratch that it does. Ultra instinct quarrel-dodger MC? Got it. Bear Wrestler Thorkell? 3m tall human-ish monster? You know it

[@SefniVinalonn]

@@samarkand1585 Majority of that involves Thorkell, who is intentionally mythical and over the top. And I wouldn't call Thorfinn "ultra-instinct" dodging. He just has really fast reflexes that he learned to account for his smaller stature and life as a viking from childhood. Thorkell is Thorkell, and is meant to be ridiculous and over the top. But majority of the post-Prologue stuff is nowhere as ridiculous as the feats early on. The second arc is 90% character work and farming. And the final battle is fantastic. Then we have more character work and sailing, with interpersonal conflicts and some admittedly ahistoristical technology with Hild (even though that was made pretty clear to be historical fiction and acknowledged), and then an arc with more character conflicts and an all out viking siege. None if it is super anime. The closest you'll get is Garm, and even then, he isn't fucking Thorkell levels of insanity. He's a foil to Thorfinn. This is still historical fiction afterall, unless you think the actual Thorfinn Karlsefni was a childhood raider and heir to the Jomsvikings leadership. I wouldn't even call most of that anime as much as mythical and in the spirit of mythologies and legendary stories of ancient and medieval peoples. Your point is taken, but don't be so bad faith.

[@samarkand1585]

@@SefniVinalonn You somehow glossed over the 3m tall monster at Jomsborg. Interesting. And I'm the bad faith one

[@SefniVinalonn]

@@samarkand1585 Oops, I did gloss over that in my reading. I assumed you meant Thorkell for some reason. Yeah, that wasn't what I'd call anime tropey. I'd call that more like a mythological monster like a giant. Point taken on that one. I forgot about him, that was indeed bizarre. But it's not like he's everywhere in the story or anything.

[@samarkand1585]

@@SefniVinalonn The thing remains, that except that one ship combat scene, every over the top thing in the anime is in the manga as well. So I really don't get why you say the manga is "significantly more" grounded. It's literally the same minus the ship mast thing.

[@peteredwards2318]

The thing I like about Vinland Saga is that although there are superhuman feats in it, there aren't supernatural feats. The abilities warriors possess in that show are not granted by ephemeral spirits, demons, or necessarily Gods, but by the will of the character, their training, skill and might. They are shorthand, in my view. When we see a man chop a ships mast and three men into discrete pieces, this is short hand for "the character is badass as all hell, and you should consider his abilities far beyond that of his peers". Yes, its a bit extra, sure, but they aren't calling attacks, and melting cities with blast waves coming off their blades. Of all the anime I saw when Vinland Saga was new, its the most down to Earth one involving swordplay. Heck, at least its not Bleach🤣

[@Big_Finger_Jim]

Just like Yakuza, and honestly, that’s how it should be.

[@SaryM29]

Honestly, there are indeed some absurd superhuman feats (you're gonna see a few things way over what you saw in that start), but I also believe the show knows how to balance things out and when to set foot back onto reality. You'll be able to realize it in the first episodes already that "even these superhumans are not really superhumans", which is kind of a weird to phrase it, but what I really mean by that is: the feats are more for entertainment purposes and those cool action moments, but despite that, the plot is able to progress just as it should in a more realistic setting, and I believe this is shown exactly when you see some of these superheroes dying, you know; because when you think about a superhuman like that, let's go a bit over the top and say Goku, per example, you don't imagine he'd ever get killed by something like arrows or be affected by wounds or something like that; and I believe this is exactly the point in where Vinland Saga sets its feet back on reality, because it's in those times that you realize that their "superhumans" are strong, indeed, but are still humans, and they didn't get there just by mere fact of being absurdly strong, they really do know how to handle themselves and had motivations to get there in the first place, and there if they were to fail or die halfway there, they would, just like any other human being. Of course you might still not like those over-the-top moments, it's not like you have to like it, but I do think you can still have a pretty good time, and giving it another shot might be worth it.

[@TheSaberra]

What I liked in Vinland Saga was that I didn't feel like some characters are killing lesser fighters because they are magical superhumans or because others are useless. Instead I've felt like it's somewhat natural for them to behave so.

[@Likexner]

We dont always know why we like or dislike something. When we assume we _must_ know, we default to retroactively rationalizating our conclusion. In other words, if you dont know the real reason why you think or feel a certain way but you just _have to_ present one, you will simply make one up. Taste doesnt always need to be explained, or even explain-able.

[@boigercat]

This was a really good chat, thanks for coming back to this topic mate

[@rjnegative]

Vinland Saga is very different from typical anime. It actually surprised me in a lot of ways for someone who's somewhat an anime geek. If you don't like the first 3 episodes you probably won't like it but that's only an hour of content, you'd have to sacrifice. There's obviously exaggerated feats and unlikely scenarios but I think anyone could appreciate this show if you're into the darker part of that age.

[@terrynieuwoudt8586]

Always appreciate your take on things, as a fellow bearded nerd, it's great to hear someone you hold in regard talking about things we're all passionate about. Can't wait for your Vinland Saga review :D

[@hallofguns8174]

Good to hear you gaining a new perspective/understanding.

[@tropologist4193]

If the fight scenes turn you off I suggest skipping to the 2nd story arc (ch 55 of the manga). The story switches tone completely and there's much less fighting. After the war, a certain character becomes a thrall and has to adjust to his new life. It becomes a much more grounded series, more character-driven and the author puts a lot more effort into historical accuracy. It eventually transitions into more of an adventure story but to say any more would be spoiling it too much. I highly recommend checking Vinland Saga out. It's won major awards for a reason.

[@Protologos]

Your ability to self reflect is incredibly refreshing. It inspires me to do the same.

[@neosavior9305]

I have been waiting for you to talk about this anine for so long. Rant away my friend

[@Lotusguts008]

This is the second vid of Vinland

[@minutemansam1214]

I really want to see your reaction to the trailer for the movie The Northman. It's from the same director was The VVitch. It's based on the story of Amleth, which is the direct inspiration for Hamlet, and the director is well known for working with historians who specialize in certain periods of time so make sure certain details, like clothes, culture, weapons, etc. are accurate.

[@MaycroftCholmsky]

Honestly, I beleave you can really enjoy Vinland Saga if you put your expectations into context. Basically, it's one of the first large historical fiction anime shows NOT focusing on Japanese history, meaning it's a form of telling a story from across half a world to an audience with a completely different cultural background and little understanding of history of such a remote region as Europe. Being a nerd in European history and loving every single thing about medieval period doesn't mean you can actually tell a lot about what happened in China and Japan in the same years - but happened it did, we are just likely too far apart culturally to understand the significance of some interclan rivalries in XIth century Japan or a dynastic struggle in China around the same period (and don't even get me started on Indonesia or Thailand). From that point of view, the Vinland Saga does its job absolutely marvelously, taking the typical anime tropes like over-the-top action scenes, unnecessarily exaggerated emotions of characters and a bratty, obnoxious and arrogant main character so typical for "shōnen" genre of anime - only to lure in the audience, to give people the sence of familiarity with the medium and setup the key characters, but after that it does a remarkable job of showing the customs, the religious struggles, the personal dramas and international relations of the period. Of cause, some things are exaggerated in order to give them more visual representation, like Welsh suddenly looking more akin to romans then to their Anglo-Saxon neighbours, but that only helps to push further the understanding of a diverse land that is medieval England prior to the Norman conquest. Also, some things are done remarkably right, like clothing and weaponry of different Viking and Saxon factions being closer to the historical truth then, for example, in the Vikings show made for Europeans (and Americans) by Europeans. Put in this context, the show starts making much more sence and is a lot more pleasant to watch, then expecting an actual historical representation from the get-go. On the contrary, every time the show does something remarkably right you let yourself be impressed thinking: wow, I didn't think a shōnen series with a blockbuster style epic fight scenes would do something like that, kudos to the authors! At least that's how I've watched the series, and I loved the majority of it (the biggest downside being an edgy teenager MC, to be honest).

[@Vulcano7965]

The authors of Vinland Saga didn't do all their research abroad it has to be said. They physically travellend around scandinavia to get a better idea how to make their story more believable - the landscape, the tools, the weapons as you mentioned, etc.

[@Blaisem]

Love your humble humor Skallagrim. Great video :)

[@avw160]

Loving these nature walks and chats.

[@dylanmorey6215]

Thank you for going back to this topic and continuing the discussion! 👍 I will continue to champion the manga as an alternative to the anime because, as you point out, the anime carries a lot of "anime-isms" with it, and many of those aren't present in the manga, like the Axe Vs. Ship scene and the main character randomly running like Naruto. Yes, its fights are still bombastic and larger than life, but it is at least reasonably grounded by comparison. Either way, whether you end up watching/reading it or not, thank you for talking about it and encouraging conversation on a series that I hold very close to my heart.

[@lanedexter6303]

I once saw a production of Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night’s Dream where all were costumed as Prohibition era gangsters, and it turned out to be pretty amusing.

[@JorPanzer]

I love how self aware you are man :)

[@Dirtbag-Hyena]

Brother, I love your videos like this. I have no idea what show this is that you're talking about, but, I enjoy hearing you talk and I love the nature. I miss it. I can't walk anymore, so, I love seeing you in it. Enjoying it. Thanks for everything over the years, and happy holidays to you and the ol'lady. You guys make each other so happy, it's beautiful. She still has that twinkle she had back in your wedding video. At least, that's what I see.✌🏼

[@wismsgre]

The Vinland Saga manga (with the chapters that will be released in the second season) is soo good. Such a great emotional ride, and a powerful twist. I'm not saying this to change your opinion or anything. Just praising the things that are great about it.

[@galbas78]

I really enjoyed this video for a couple reasons. #1 beautiful scenery#2 the total free flow of your thoughts. that is honestly really therapeutic and more folks should take part in.

[@longline]

They were clearly cut in half by a very pointy shock wave from the axe moving so fast... Pointy shock waves. Totally a thing.

[@darkenblade986]

really respect you considering other's opinions and going so far as to make a video showing the short comings of your own opinions.

[@godlaydying]

'World War Two with swords' is pretty close to Captain America. He's fighting World War Two with a shield.

[@MauroDraco]

I think you are pretty reasonable and well articulated in your arguments and assumptions. It's very fair and balanced the standard ways you deal with things you analyse. ;)

[@Thoughtful_Balance]

You're educating people on the differences between fantasy and realism. You are also doing it in a humorous way. This is good. We can enjoy fantasy yet criticize and learn from it through sceptical deconstruction.

[@longline]

I have a similar barrier to accepting the premise, the physics of most anime. The two that I've found most charming were Samurai Champloo and One Punch. They make no effort to sell it as reasonable. Both are having fun, saying "This is a party, you're in, or you're out".

[@anatoleleconte723]

I don't know about Samourai Champloo, but One punch man is, in a way, parodic, so it's kinda the point. But I understand what you're saying as it is what kept me away from it for a long time, and for the moment I have only watched like 3 or 4 episodes

[@patrickhector]

Tbf the physics of Vinland are intentionally fucky, it's roughly based on sagas of legendary figures whose feats have been exaggerated over and over again

[@Andy-yx2rw]

Who the hell cares about physics in a fantasy story...

[@anatoleleconte723]

@@Andy-yx2rw it depends of the fantasy story. Some with a very serious tone use physics and realism to anchor the movie or serie in a very intense universe (Castlevania, The Dragon Prince, Invincible, The Boys). Other ignores physics because they allow themselves to be more goofy like Avatar (in a way, it can be really serious, but in those moments they tend to respect physics) or to use exaggerated elements to reinforce some aspects of them (like Vinland saga). Just because it is Fantasy doesn't mean you can choose to say fuck to physics. You can use both elements because it is Fantasy. But I mean, come on the heart of today fantasy is The Lord of the Rings. Taking place in a world that seems very, very real because they respect physics. Fantasy allows you make a choice about the rules of physics, not to say I don't care about it because it is Fantasy.

[@smultanius]

If you go in expecting an Islendingasaga, you'll be disappointed. If you go in expecting a fornaldarsaga, you'll be amazed at the author's attention to detail, and his clear appreciation for the history and culture of the time period. I don't usually read manga, but my interest in the Viking Era brought me to it before there was an anime, and I was glued to the page for almost a hundred chapters. If you haven't gone back to the show yet, try reading the original. The animation in the show isn't the greatest quality, but the artwork of the manga is top-notch - by far the best illustrated material about the Viking Age.

[@joshuahendricks9558]

Skall, I've always been ok with your more grinchy side of things, but I do think that it's INCREDIBLY awesome that your willing to look at yourself, reconsider positions and admit your realities. Much respect.

[@mattmoraworld]

I completely understand that point of view! I faced the same kind of comments when I was reviewing the weapons in the Viking game Valheim... Oh, yeah, one of those videos featured you anyway. Almost forgot about that :D Thanks again! Anyway the issue with Vikings in particular is that pop culture has already painted a wildly different image than what's historically accurate and it's far too late to fix that, so we can only inform the people who are interested in the topic - and that might come across as nitpicky and boring to everyone else I guess.

[@Theghostcloset]

I don't care about the show. I just wanted to comment on the park that you're walking around in! It's beautiful! What an awesome place to "get away"

[@RAI-1911]

It's nice to hear the "bearded man" rambling while watching the scenery. Would be great if you do it more often, I'd say... :D

[@Omegaroth666]

You are my favorite bearded dork, and one of the few opinions I value on these types of subjects. 😉

[@ПавелРымар-с7с]

Sometimes a discussion with oneself helps to understand and draw interesting conclusions. Which will give the ground for something new. The magnificent landscapes among other things!

[@Eyewarp]

"A World War 2 setting where everybody fights with swords" …that kinda sounds like my D&D setting… "ancient India but there's a bunch of smurfs running around" …that REALLY sounds like my D&D setting…

[@shovel662]

And Churchill whet his blade. And with it he smote the fürher passingly sore. And the blade cleaved through stalhelm and maille.

[@IIARROWS]

3:26 the squirrels are not a distraction, it's content. I like that!

[@blakebailey22]

It being a saga doesn't even matter, any show or movie or game that presents historical fiction with superhuman characters in inherently really interesting to me because it's a really cool "what if" scenario. I think maybe you're getting hung up on how the characters got so strong and what other people's reaction within the story should be to this super strength. So long as it's explained or seen as special by everyone else in the story then it's fine. The game "Nioh" is the perfect example of a "what if" historical fiction with magical stones that summon spirits.

[@NoxxeRArt]

Don't worry Skal, sometimes we must shut down our brains to enjoy something!

[@elitemook4234]

If you have to shut off your brain it's not enjoyable to begin with.

[@theonlygoodlookinghabsburg2081]

It's not called 'shutting down our brains," a better and more accurate term for it is "suspension of belief." It's something that we do literally with all fiction even realistic one.. but of course with varying degrees. Meaning the more non realistic the more we do it.

[@Eyewarp]

I think it's less a matter of turning your brain off and more about going with your personal preferences and choosing (whether consciously or unconsciously) what to focus on. Personally, I love Vinland Saga, but without getting into spoilers, I do sometimes roll my eyes at just how far it strays from history. I love it for its character writing, its political and military intrigue, and its stunningly beautiful artwork, animation, and music, but I have to just kinda shrug at how the story plays fast and loose with historical and folkloric figures.

[@noname-dk7ri]

vinland saga is entertainment, not documentary. Needless to say, everyone knows.

[@NellaCuriosity]

Fantastic video Skall!. One of the things I really admire about you is how you do reflect and release videos like this one to acknowledge when you've felt that in hindsight you were unfair in your criticism.

[@carlthekatt]

Fair points. I think it is interesting and entertaining to get a practical evaluation on fantasy stuff like this, and don't really see how that detracts from being able to enjoy the source material for what it is. Vinland Saga kind of falls in an odd place since it is clearly based on history and appears to try to recreate some things faithfully, but then goes full shonen anime mode for the fights, but even then only for specific characters. It would make a little more sense if there was some explanation of why the superpowered characters are special - theoretically, most of the warriors depicted in the show are trained soldiers, and unless there is some kind of supernatural explanation, it doesn't make much sense why some specific people (i.e. Thors, Thorkell) are so clearly superhuman when their abilities shouldn't be that much different from the trained warriors around them. They go out of their way to explain Bjorn being strong by showing him using berserker mushrooms to go into a battle fury, so then why not provide a similar explanation for why the other "OP" characters are strong? There are definitely some gaps in internal consistency, which is a bit of a shame when there are plenty of pure fantasy battle anime that have better organized and developed power systems.

[@cameronthir1395]

I think that we tend to view historical fictions as non-fiction stories way too often; It's a historical "fiction" after all.

[@c99kfm]

If you're into fantastic history, you might want to check out Mythic Europe, the setting of the Ars Magica pen and paper RPG. It's pretty solidly both historic and fantastic, and pretty well fleshed out by now.

[@halwakka504]

Aw I especially love the Point Pleasant Park videos. Makes me miss Hali.

[@Bbydunn28]

What I found great from the vineland saga manga was the fact that the author of the series give his perspective from a Japanese person looking into and learning about the norse people from the viking age. He talked about the pros and cons of the society at the time and aspects of the culture.

[@kapilthevkanapathipillai6424]

In Drifters anime Katana still cuts through armour and historical characters with superpowers BUT in the show the references they make about the historical characters' history, they do a pretty good Job. Also the warfare strategy they show is very grounded. How to kill a cavalry, how use muskets.

[@AvantNovis]

Thank you for your videos. Always amazed on how much you know.

[@TekTheNinja]

Tbh I don't know how Vinland Saga is "too anime for you" when it's one of the most "not like most anime" anime I've ever seen.

[@yuriyu123]

Vinland Saga: not ok, nah. SPACE VIKINGS: OH YEAH!

[@josueroberto7356]

I do hope you give it a chance. As interesting as this particular discussion is, I think at this point we’re getting too hung up on the fight scenes, which while I do like, aren’t even the best point of the show. It’d be a damn shame to pass on this because of that when Vinland Saga is considered one of the best stories written ever.

[@cptmiche]

Skallagrim, at ~4:00 when you talk about internal consistency. There is a word for this, called verisimilitude.

[@beastiebro]

You should definitely watch it *especially* with Season 2 coming out so soon… the story and themes would 💯% to your liking-I’d bet *so much* money on it. (watch in Eng Sub bc of how stellar the voice acting it)

[@IeshiAke]

From what I recall, when Vinland Saga came out a lot of people that expected action were disappointed after the first episode, when it became much more character focused. So if that helps maybe said tonal backlash could be a good sign for the rest of the series. Ironically the moral ambiguity of rulers is a very realistic element of the show (also the role of religion). I really think it's a great story, with characters like Cnut and Askellad being outstanding, and worth watching.

[@flocksofravens]

A good listen 🤟 I do admit though you walking through nature while you're talking made the video even more awesome

[@shanephillips617]

Is that what the East Coast looks like at Christmas these days? I was born in NB in 87' and this looks better than deer hunting season used to in October once upon a time. Either way, I love seeing people enjoy the outdoors the way it aught to be enjoyed. I am currently living in northern BC and at Dec 23rd we are buried in 2 feet of snow. Love your videos Skal...

[@JanusAeyrelion]

I think it's a good video overall tbh; you lay out some thoughts you had on the matter, without being apologetic about it. Sometimes, shows/books/whatever it may be? Just doesn't jive with one's likes. And sometimes there's no specific reason for it.

[@throttlehead3772]

Very satisfying hiking video 😌 Anyways, you should give the show a chance, "vikings but anime" but is still good.

[@kmg9763]

We should have a Roast Skall Competition. BTW, nice video.

[@peterdurbin2659]

This is why I love ya Skallgrim, you willing to look at your own content for possible problems and bias. I agree that Vinland saga takes ridiculous liberties with characters and events, but it is in order to tell a great story with enjoyable characters. Although, not everything is for anyone, and opinions should be respected as long as they are thought trough. Looking forward to future content.

[@federicoarmada8775]

I don't see the point of comparing Vinland Saga to gods related stories or vampire stories, when the "superhuman" feats in Vinland Saga don't go far from what the collective expectation of what action in an animated show looks like. It's like watching a movie and complaining about people jumping through windows without a single scratch or guns sounding nothing like what they sound like in real life, that's how the media works.

[@EternalVirgin]

Interestingly, this is the first time I've ever heard of that detail in Volsunga saga concerning how Sigurd gained his wisdom from the dragon; when you said it, the first thing that came to my mind was, "oh that was kinda similar to how Fionn mac Cumhaill gained his wisdom", by putting his thumb in his mouth after a drop of burning fat dropped onto it while they were cooking something (salmon of knowledge for Fionn, Fafnir's heart for Sigurd).

[@yanakaizzz9335]

Gotta say, I miss hiking! Also, I don't mind over the top "anime esq" magic n the like so long as it's appropriately set up by the director/author. Btw, that's a nice spot you found there Skall. Very nice :)

[@michaelhoulihan6476]

Thank you for creating such a wonderfully entertaining and informative KZbin channel, also may I wish you a very merry Christmas and I hope in the new year all your plans are met with success and happiness. All the best Michael

[@NoahLoydOG]

When it comes to 'historical fiction', there's a few schools of thought, as far as I can observe, among authors. Take a look, for example, at works by Jules Verne, one of the earlier science fiction writers; in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, the story opens with a trip on an (experimental) ocean-going steam powered warship, of effectively conventional design, that anyone who read the description of it at the time would recognize as, well, an ocean-going steam powered warship of post-American Civil War design. The ship itself and its design were completely fictional, and its speed, armament, and a few other details would be (for the sake of argument) 'anime' compared to the reality of the time, larger than life, but this was intentional. Its design was grounded in notes from reality (Verne loved to sketch ships he saw in ports that he visited, and he knew a fair bit about their construction and operation from his time aboard them) but skewed a little toward fantasy to excite the reader: "Just imagine, soon we'll have ironclads that can do 25 knots under steam, and can carry a full head of sail to boot!" This concept of 'creating immersion for the viewer/reader by creating an image of a familiar world, then adding something fantastical to it to make it new' is also found in the Valkyria Chronicles series. The general setting (a European continent with features resembling Germany, France, Switzerland and other familiar countries), the technology (relatively primitive-looking tanks with blocky armor and multiple turrets, like interwar tanks from Russia, Germany and the U.K., or completely mundane rifles and early sub-machine guns), and even the uniforms draw inspiration from historical sources, pictures many people will be familiar with, and throws in a few twists. There's a fictional, but completely logical, primitive man-portable anti-tank weapon called a Lance, which uses a (very large) shaped charge not unlike the historical Panzerfaust along with a Bazooka-esque rocket propulsion system, which even has a built-in riot shield to protect the operator. There's a fictional energy source called Ragnite, a mineral substitute for gasoline for vehicle engines, over which the various powers are fighting to control supply. And there's the elephant in the room, the Valkyria, female warriors with incredible, unrealistic, magical powers that they can use to dominate the battlefield. I hear you say, "well, that sure doesn't sound historically accurate", and you're right, it's not; but what draws people in is the elements that tug on your brain cells, pointing out things that feel recognizable, realistic. You find yourself looking at a rifle and thinking, 'That sure looks like a Lee-Enfield.' You look at a tank and wonder, 'Did they take that turret from a T-26? The tracks look more like an FT-17, though.' That little jolt of recognition, even for someone who doesn't know every single piece of interwar military hardware by sight, is enough to either draw you in by its mere presence, or push you away when juxtaposed against the more fantastic elements of the story. Vinland Saga is much the same in this regard; there's names of historical figures, places, and events thrown around. Dates for events are given. A lot of detail is drawn, even in abstract, from some historical sources, or is presented in a way that evokes a retelling of history (Kingdom, a similarly styled anime and manga series based in an old part of China's history, does the same sort of thing, where it will present a fantastically styled battle of some guy who looks to be 20 feet tall on a horse the size of a bus fighting a little man on foot, and then say something like, "There was a battle fought on the shores of the river Hunin, where General Hi fought General To-gi with 2,000 men against 14,000 men. General Hi's victory.") In these sorts of stories, liberties are taken for their sheer entertainment value. To many in the audience, seeing the huge, imposing figure of Thorkell pick up a literal tree and use it to batter down the wall of a fort, while swinging it around to catch incoming arrows, is entertaining. Superhuman feats make history sound more... fun, to be honest. And they could easily have gone with a more down-to-earth, accurate-to-history style of storytelling, but they went the route that uses recognizable elements to ground the story, then have a handful of characters who stand out from the crowd to be entertainment set-pieces. Thorfinn's first fight against Thorkell wouldn't have anywhere near the same impact if there wasn't a huge disparity in their size, or if we hadn't seen Thorkell's previous feats of strength, or his fighting spirit. If instead, it was, say, a 5'8" guy with a sword fighting a 5'11" guy with a sword, and they just stood there and batted at each other in HEMA-approved stances, it would not be as entertaining. So the roadblock here is that suspension of disbelief. For some, it's not a simple matter of just looking at the fantasy elements, superhuman feats, unrealistic proportions and saying, 'eh, it's fine, the rest of the world looks pretty normal to me, I can live with that.' It's honestly a big roadblock. As a student of history, one of the topics I love to study is the second world war, and when I watched Fury for the first time, I could not suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy the movie; I appreciate what they tried to do, but their brutal butchering of the standard tank combat operations even a brand new cadet would have been taught, the outlandish final battle sequence, honestly made me want to stop watching countless times. I completely understand how something like the Nordic sagas or historical records being portrayed as an over the top action anime fantasy playground can fill someone like Skall with a nameless disgust. The kind that you can't really put into words, but it's just uncomfortable, makes you furl your brow and say that it just doesn't feel right. And there's nothing wrong with that; it underlines the passion for historical accuracy, and the almost sacred desire to keep it from being polluted. History is so easy to corrupt with pop culture, even classics and favorites like Zulu aren't completely historically accurate, while something like 300 is woefully inaccurate and again, almost insulting to students of history. For me, I'd say to viewers of these things, "it's cool that you enjoy this, but would you like to know what it was really like?" Truth can be pretty fantastical on its own sometimes, especially when you realize how many of these figures we read about were honestly completely mundane, ordinary people, who happened to be a part of something truly amazing. Sometimes, it feels better to keep history and fiction separated, especially when it comes to topics, stories, characters and settings that are dear to us in particular. That's not bad, that's not being closed-minded, it's recognizing that it's good to have a healthy respect for reality, for truth, and that not all adaptations of history into film, animation, print or manga have that respect, regardless of the attention to detail they still draw their references from.

[@giztronwarlock]

I liked your take from the first video to this one and respect it! though honestly just as a anime fan I enjoyed the show aswell, but personally i think its less "anime" then most shows, very little screaming, most characters are adults. and such but yeah

[@powerofberzerker9487]

I agree that the ax slash through 4 people that aren't in a line is just ridiculous. VS jumped the shark early with that one. It's anime only footage but it slightly ruins the whole show with that little moment.

[@Ranstone]

Yep. Some part of my brain can believe cutting though an anvil with a sword. No part of my brain can believe cutting through a mast, (essentially a tree) with a smaller tree. (The haft of the axe). X'D

[@akusa1167]

Well, Either way I am waiting your reaction to the second season. Thank You.

[@marocat4749]

We love rambly skall, the disagreements just belong to that . It like some people think about anime, even the actual great ones, (dont mean skall with that) cant force anyone. Its fine Happy xmas/yule/whatever and pommel the new year rightly. The one destroying swords remind me of someone :P Ther is a good urban fantasy series witchblade thats really good action, and obviously feminist, there i even a white knight character she keeps at arms lengh a creep. Despite him helping her, as she should. An the lead actres is great as that hardboiled detective being thrust in that stuff.

[@mc_zittrer8793]

As is already covered in the video description, the series is already 'faithful' to at least some of the Viking sagas of old. And if you follow the story of young Thorfinn, he actually claws his way up the ladder from a normal and helpless child to superhuman assassin with Napoleon complex. It shows me that heroism may be genetic, or it may be born from the ambition to do great things, much like you'd see in the fables of every ancient nation that had some affect on today's pop culture. The bottom line is, you can't sit out on the show and claim it has no internal consistency when Castlevania could easily just come off as some crappy middle school fanfiction of ancient Transylvania - and I lovingly say that as someone that's been playing Castlevania games for decades, lol. I'd say the most overexaggerated element of the show is Thorkell, as he strikes me more as a boss character from DBZ. While he is an actual historical figure, I see him more as a nemesis to make Thorfinn feel smaller. Sort of a David and Goliath rivalry, as it were. For my tastes, I kinda understand where Skall is coming from. I'm way too jaded about 99% of everything that comes out of Japan, these days. And if some aspects of a show seem a little too 'extra', I can understand how he might get turned off when Vinland Saga has contemporaries like Maria the Virgin Witch and Goblin Slayer to contend with. I honestly see Vinland Saga as a marriage between Berserk and Maria, and even that's just a loose comparison as I feel Vinland deserves its own category. Some parts of Vinland Saga are legitimately dumb, and I take that as some badly needed levity, cause the rest of the show is so steeped in Icelandic culture, and the narrative is so powerful, that I'm actually willing to roll with what few inaccuracies there are. I think Skall should make a vlog of his journey through Vinland Saga, just to see if it's everything he expected it to be. I mean it's nothing he should be pressured to do, since I'd rather he check it out to sate his own curiosity. But as a pure pleb regarding knowledge of history, it didn't really matter to me whether Vinland Saga was based on the grounded sagas or the fantastical ones - the history was just a vehicle. What mattered to me were the characters that drove it.

[@loaeterna2384]

I prefer fantasy because the mundane world, is just that..........mundane! Could not agree more! :) Anyway, Merry Christmas all, or whatever you celebrate this time of year!

[@vanivanov9571]

Right, it's Vinland SAGA. The Sagas are full of unrealistic things. And while realism is important, it shouldn't be at the cost of creativity--I like "realistic" fantasy. Most of Vinland Saga (not the 2 second anime-only filler clip) has pretty realistic super powers, in how characters react to them and how they make use of them strategically/tactically. Oh, and Merry Christmas to all.

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

I mean, berserkers were always portrayed as having completely impenetrable skin. Not as hardy, no, as literally invincible except under certain circumstances. If I read in a saga that a berserker hewed a longship in half, or even into splinters, it wouldn't feel too out of place to me.

[@vanivanov9571]

@@NieroshaiTheSable Right. Vinland Saga has taken that style, but translated it into a more gritty and down to Earth setting. They've done a pretty excellent job of it overall. If they had no superhuman elements, it'd be pretty disappointing for a Saga-themed story. Happy New Year, by the way.