The Language Of The New Music - Documentary about Wittgenstein and Schoenberg, 1985

[@constancewalsh3646]

Pure manna,. My soul has longed for this tone and depth in a documentary on what is most relevant. In the depths of a Covid world, such attitudes of intelligence and the truths of loss, are themselves lost to this immature culture addicted to convenience and the idea that disaster and suffering of this sort does not belong here. The great souls of the last world war had substance beyond imagining. Bless those who filmed, photographed, wrote, and who today give the art of the documentary to those of us left to recognize. Thank you so much.

[@eppiehemsley6556]

Beautifully put Constance.

[@VegaNorm79]

Right on the nose 👌

[@Warp75]

Well said Constance 👏🏻

[@Daniel_Zalman]

What a marvelous documentary. Some really wonderful insights by Mr. Nupen. Illuminating two eminently important individuals in the development of our culture. It is also so beautifully edited and scored. A work of genius about two geniuses. I've felt a growing affinity for the music of Schoenberg for the last 5 years (I'm 33). I've always sensed that there was something essential being expressed in the music. However, I felt, and still do feel occasionally, that something was blocking me from getting inside the music, from having a direct relationship to it. After watching this masterpiece, I feel as though I have been partially purged from the fetters of my own musical conditioning and will be able to listen with a fresh perspective. I will rewatch this documentary many times, of that I"m sure.

[@Pulsonar]

I found that a singular piece of music can have different faces depending on perspective, context, environment, and period of life it is listened in.

[@johnryskamp2943]

Fatuous nonsense from an idiot like you

[@Pulsonar]

Wittgensteins family was one with the most contrasting fortunes I’ve ever heard of. Not even fabulous wealth could offset the streak of madness that ran through the many brilliant minds in their family.

[@freepagan]

Let's not forget that Schönberg still taught traditional harmony to his students. He emphasized that you had to have a well-grounded knowledge of said harmony before moving towards "free tonal" composing. In other words, the established rules had to be mastered before they could be broken. This shows the lasting importance of learning music theory for the musician and composer, down to the present day.

[@genustinca5565]

I never understood this line of reasoning to be honest. Why learn traditional tonality and harmony if all 12 notes are free anyway? You can put a chimpansee behind a piano, let him bang about, note what he played, and voila, you have 'free tonal' music composing.

[@normalhispanicdude]

@@SereneJudo Unless you know how Western Classical music developed, you will never understand the reason for the arrival to the dodecaphonic system. In order to write music, you need to understand music, and that's what he did. I still do with my students, so did my teachers with me in Europe, even though, we never wrote a single tonal piece in our life.

[@screambeyond]

​@@genustinca5565 If you can't differ a deep free tonal composition made by Shöenberg or other good composer from something played randomly by a chimpansee... that shows you have more affinity with a chimpansee's intelligence than with that of a composer. Imagine you have a piano with just one single tonality, so that everything you play would be "harmonious"... and according to your logic, if a chimpansee bang about that piano the outcome wouldn't be so different of a Beethoven sonata. Composing is not a question of tonality or free tonal. Try to learn something.

[@owenreel3916]

I would also like to point out that his work is all intentional, and serialism is also an intentional form of composing. He is breaking the boundaries of scales, not basing relationships on groups of notes , but rather the relationship between notes themselves.

[@owenreel3916]

@@screambeyond This is a very insightful analogy, absolutely true.

[@carenkurdjinian5413]

Fantastic Observation And Interpretation-About Expressing - The World …..🌞

[@charlestonchildrenschorus8661]

This is an amazing documentary. I can't believe I missed this having begun my graduate studies in music this precise year. Thanks for posting.

[@meghanchristian3479]

Do you have any other good documentaries you may recommend?

[@cxmxg]

Yes, please, share with us!

[@lonelykid7691]

@@meghanchristian3479 I have a few! They're John Cage documentaries: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5KxeJiredqLopY kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZKqoGx6qKl1bpI kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmGxqJyKfa6bfa8 This John Cage doctrine is also a good read: sophia.smith.edu/~tciufo/sonicart09/readings/cage_experimental.pdf I'm obviously a John Cage super fan lol, but he saved my life so I will always be a fan of him.

[@russellparratt9859]

It's clear from many of the comments that there are many people who would be happier living in the 19th century. It's also clear that they are unaware of the huge and very diverse output of Schoenberg. He is one of my favourite composers, but I feel quite content to base that regard on relatively few works. But, those works are totally enjoyable masterpieces.

[@ntodd4110]

Quite so. I've listened to his music closely over decades. Every so often I acquire a new "fave rave" among his works, and these in turn send me back exploring other works of his that I have only given cursory attention... and he does require a lot of attention from his listeners, but he rewards it - eventually. I can completely understand why people wouldn't want to expend so much time and effort. In our culture we're used to music giving us a big emotional payoff, and immediately. But where he's going in the music is such a profound leap from where he started, it opens up a whole new musical world. Once Schoenberg allows one to eavesdrop on the discussion he's having with music history, other works by twentieth (and twenty first) century composers can be heard making their contributions to that grand discussion. Older works take on a new significance in this new context, too. Schoenberg illuminates the past, he doesn't exterminate it. I'm grateful to have been able to set foot in this new world (which really isn't so new these days, but so far has not been superseded). As Wittgenstein said "People nowadays think that scientists exist to instruct them, while poets and musicians exist to give them pleasure. The idea that the latter have something to teach them - that does not occur to them."

[@AngelDucattiforever]

Thank you allegro films for uploading this docu to youtube, I really appreciate it. Some people are a mistery to me , I have no idea what they are talking or playing about. I tried listen to Schonberg several times and every single time I got headaches and nervous breakdown.Stravinsky's violin concerto is as far I can go with dissonance without feeling pain.

[@ftumschk]

You should try Schoenberg's early masterpieces, Verklärte Nacht and Gurrelieder. Sumptuous, romantic music, and much more approachable.

[@grudley]

@@ftumschk Isn't that kind of besides the point? I suppose in the case of the person you are responding to, this shows that Schoenberg has technique, and is capable of creating things in this more understandable idiom, but this doesn't so much make Schoenberg's later innovations more intelligible, which seems to be the heart of the matter.

[@ftumschk]

@@grudley I take your point, but if the OP has tried Schoenberg and got headaches on account of an aversion to "dissonance", it might help to know that there are some Schoenberg works that aren't dissonant at all.

[@Συναισθησις]

One can't listen to Schoenberg without understanding the language first. Study more harmony, then familiarise yourself with dodecaphony, only then try listening to Schoenberg ATTENTIVELY and LOGICALLY. It's just like Wittgenstein said: a language is a form of life, and the limits of one's language are the limits of one's world.

[@ntodd4110]

Try Schoenberg's Piano Concerto. It's dreamy...

[@athelstaneofconingsburgh]

What an outstanding documentary. Thank you so much for uploading it!

[@andrecraveir0]

N

[@annip5573]

Thanks evers so much for sharing this film for free!!! And for all the others you share.

[@montsemajanmartinez9824]

Worthy of consideration in these contexts is Ein Brief by Hugo Von Hofmannstahl (the Lord Chandos letter) Von Hofmannstahl deserves more attention than he currently receives, and all of his work is shot through with the same frisson and ennui as those treated in this documentary.

[@0otee]

Modern dance evolved from modern music too. Turn of a century and a great light is shed here on these 2 important minds of people influenced by times Changes coming on! They felt it so strong they had to made a start off themselves👌🧐🌞🎶 Thanks for this upload!

[@Kurzula5150]

I've always loved Schoenberg. Testimony to both his and Wittgenstein's theories regarding the limitations of language is demonstrated by the 21st century phenomenon of cats playing piano.

[@meredrums1]

I'm glad this is here. Much to learn.

[@jean-pierredelaporte]

I worked with Michael Nupen on the script. Although he was Adornian he had little affinity with Schonberg. He viewed Wittgenstein as a positivist and was new to architecture. Nevertheless he was intellectually adventurous and absorbed new ideas in expansive paraphrases. which work quite well in the commentary here

[@chuckbosio2924]

There are a lot of developments with microtonal music from Turkey. Professor Tolgahan Coglu is brilliant. I suggest that microtonal music from the middle east and Asia will be the future for music also in the west.

[@MsAdo1]

They don’t make television like this anymore.

[@pelodelperro]

Great footage. Thanks for sharing!

[@3589546]

Glad I found this. Thanks

[@kevinkiso4579]

So am I. I felt a temporary freedom from the mental, emotional, social, verbal, and spiritual shackles I feel that are being hoisted myself and my fellow man more and more every day in today's woke (I truly despise that word and all that it entails) society.

[@53aleksandra]

Superb documentary.. Thank You so much!

[@dorfmanjones]

I'm afraid the 21st century has left these two, as well as their search for some absolute and impermeable ground of understanding that one could count on, behind. Art, music, and language too, are forms of play, and although every type of game has rules specific to it, they change too. The one constant of the striving man, is the knowledge, in moments of repose, of his certain death. And that makes life all the sweeter.

[@josephcambron7060]

Excellent comment.

[@S.M.G.20]

We're not past the first quarter of the century yet. In Philosophy at least I know that we are still setting (or trying to set) a new foundation to overcome post analytical school. I will assume art and music are also going through the same period. Only that all these are currently happening behind the veil.

[@TheCarlosEMaldonado]

Wonderful documentary. It brings a wide and yet deep view of one the most important cultural moments of mankind

[@charlesdavis7087]

Too bad L. V. never got to meet Alfred Korzybski or read "Science and Sanity." The Science of Language is here.... thanks to both of you.

[@animanoir]

can you recommend me some books about that author?

[@shnimmuc]

Schoenberg admonished his students not to follow him but to go back and find something new in the old.

[@americalost5100]

So well done.

[@serenuszeitblom2063]

Really interesting!

[@JoelAWeiss]

That Allegri 4tet is awesome.

[@anthonykenny1320]

the problem with functionalism in architecture is embodied in what became known as the international style it produced buildings that had no empathy with the culture or environment in which the were built, they lack the indefinable placeness, they are neutral and impersonal, the decoration that they tried to eliminate is what makes buildings humane interesting and relatable to

[@grudley]

In some cases, they are outright hostile.

[@dijonstreak]

i would agree on all counts.

[@EndingSimple]

In other words, they look like prisons.

[@MegaCirse]

Schoenberg dans sa période tonale était sous la double influence de Wagner et de Brahms. Il explore la tonalité jusqu'à ses limites, puis décide, après de nombreuses hésitations, d'utiliser l'atonalité qu'il structure plus loin dans le temps à travers le sérialisme. Il a écrit des poème symphonique très émouvants pour la formation de chambre.

[@tomfreemanorourke1519]

The likes of Hitchcock and his genre of horror, suspense, surrealism, discord and visual dialectics must also pay homage to Arnold Schonberg, for it is in his twelve tone and a'tonal evolution accompaniment with film noir, the fear factor is rooted.

[@ruivog]

Thank you.

[@ronjericho6038]

When you get tired of your hackneyed tonal stuff, you will turn to atonality and learn to appreciate it. And you will understand that dissonance is not dissonant, it has its own unique beauty

[@blshtry1]

I dropped out of music college because of the nonsense atonal music they were composing and playing. Now it is a significant influence, as I use the styles interchangeably as is called for in the piece.

[@hippotropikas5374]

What's the name of the piece played at 15:00?

[@michaweinst3774]

Schoenberg's string trio

[@dasglasperlenspiel10]

Very nice!

[@teenagehaze7174]

does anyone knows where can I find it with subtitles?

[@gavintoohey6604]

Boss documentary

[@hobonickel840]

@11:19 He says hut ..I say "lighthouse"!

[@scottmcgill559]

Arnold Schoenberg: Genius

[@mincelli]

. Without a foundation in the conventional truth, The significance of the ultimate cannot be taught. Without understanding the significance of the ultimate, Liberation is not achieved. 11. By a misperception of emptiness A person of little intelligence is destroyed. Like a snake incorrectly seized Or like a spell incorrectly cast. 12. For that reason-that the Dharma is Deep and difficult to understand and to learn- The Buddha’s mind despaired of Being able to teach it.” ― Nāgārjuna, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way: Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika

[@deserthighways4095]

If the Buddha despaired of teaching the Dharma than I must also despair of learning the way

[@basicinfo1640]

I like it because it makes me feel angry. I feel like its supposed to make you feel angry. Like that's at the bare bones of it.

[@lawrencechalmers5432]

What piano music is that starting at 8:00?

[@michaweinst3774]

The 3rd of the 3 piano pieces Op. 11 by Schoenberg

[@die_schlechtere_Milch]

are they at it again? what a surprise!

[@SaccidanandaSadasiva]

If I was in a deserted island I would take the complete works of J.S.Bach, A.Webern and Trout Mask Replica by Captain Beefheart. I need nothing else than the divine music of bach, the minimalism of webern and the craziness of captain beefheart. You?

[@rumataastorskiy5734]

Om Sadasiva Webern is not minimalistic.

[@RanBlakePiano]

And the world of thelonious. Mahalia ?

[@jamesmuirhead5340]

Great stuff.

[@annakimborahpa]

What ever became of Michael Nupen? Did he emigrate to Nupenland?

[@bastianconrad2550]

Immensely stimulating and yet not arriving at consistently convincing insights, which can probably only exist in slices

[@voraciousreader3341]

Christopher Nupen’s documentaries aren’t about convincing anybody…..he presents an overview of a highly complex subject to stimulate a higher order of thought and curiosity for those who are interested to search farther, on their own. Anyway, who could accomplish “arriving at consistently convincing insights” about two of the most confounding thinkers from the last century in 60 minutes?? The fact that you would make such a statement makes me question if you understood the point of the film.

[@Pulsonar]

When I first looked through the Tractatus it looked like an answer book to a difficult discrete mathematics exam paper. I expected to find the working out of each statement in a companion book, then thought that might not be one book, but take up an entire floor of a city library if such a thing was ever published 😂

[@bastianconrad2550]

The so much more powerful (genetic) receptivity of man for 'sweet' (‚tonal‘) will probably (for the longest time) be more important and creative than that for bitter(‚atonal‘).A complicated evolutionary construction of the meaning of the concept of taste…

[@jeffreykalb9752]

Wittgenstein did not succeed in designing new domicile architecture. He simply designed a prison, perhaps after his own recollections, and called it a house.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

Much like atonality. In an attempt to free themselves from the "prison" of tonality they created a system even more constricting - atonality. Wendy Carlos has demonstrated that in order to avoid the dread tonic dominant implications of a given sequence of notes, Arnold and his followers choose the intervals 2nd 7th or 9th "a whopping" 55% of the time as opposed to 8% in more palatable music.

[@reev9759]

Can anyone identify the music at 4:55?

[@michaweinst3774]

The 1st Episode from the Schoenberg string trio

[@fortunatomartino8549]

What is the music underneath Specifically EXCELLENT music

[@4FYTfa8EjYHNXjChe8xs7xmC5pNEtz]

I believe it's "Generic Fruity Avant Garde Cello Noise for Pretentious Pseudointellectual British Directors to Instantly Ruin Otherwise Promising Documentaries With in E♭ Minor #37" by John Cage or Alan Bowles or whoever

[@elisamoreschi71]

È possibile avere i sottotitoli in italiano? grazie mille ;)

[@allegrofilms]

Unfortunately there are no Italian subtitles for this documentary, but here you can find all the films that have some! goo.gl/IOgGmZ Enjoy!

[@israelcortes2359]

Me encantaría que lo subtitularan en ESPAÑOL. Seria fabuloso...

[@allegrofilms]

Unfortunately we don't have Spanish subtitles for this film. If you want, you can create some, we just activated the "community contributions". Here are all documentaries with Spanish subtitles: goo.gl/s6sSG1

[@sudsolar]

@@allegrofilms Is it possible to activate the "automatic subtitles" option?

[@alessandroseravalle1523]

Great!!!!

[@bunnywhitoutheart]

Sería genial que activaran los subtítulos en inglés.

[@clararuiz6132]

I've seen that many of your videos are translated into other languages, isn't this one available in spanish?

[@allegrofilms]

Unfortunately not. You can find all documentaries with Spanish subtitles here: goo.gl/s6sSG1

[@clararuiz6132]

oh, I would like to have this one in spanish because is so interesting :( but thanks for answer, you have such an amazing channel!

[@fiboleomat]

1:34 what's the name ?

[@fiboleomat]

gracias!

[@guilhermeviegas6139]

subtitle please

[@endgcns7399]

I think schenberg created his own grammer of musical language

[@voraciousreader3341]

He did….it’s called serial composition, or the 12-tone vocabulary. And it’s spelled “grammar.”

[@otptm]

I can't continue watching! Am sorry... The music is very loud when it kicks in. It's very startling.

[@susanhawkins3890]

Askenazy,your pianist, would have verbalized what this music has meant to our times...

[@rosemarymccarron3887]

A very depressing period in time

[@yassinet.benchekroun5087]

Truly fascinating documentary. Thank you so much for uploading. I just have a question: were Schoenberg and Wittgenstein friends?

[@goon8000]

they never met

[@glenncambray626]

Yeah. They got on like a house on fire.

[@worthingtonproductions2579]

Doesn’t the control of language hinder the expression of those who don’t wish to have their language controlled? Seems contradictory.

[@voraciousreader3341]

People don’t know when the idioms of language control them, but they can still be aware that it happens. So where’s the contradiction? Wittgenstein and other philosophers don’t provide the whole prescription for their observations and theories…..they offer their theories and leave the rest of humanity to find their own way.

[@JohnBorstlap]

What happened, is the putting of the world upside-down, replacing humanism by intellectual wrenching and neurosis.

[@laurenfyle3825]

Although I have no experience or knowledge about architecture, I think that house he designed looks quite cheap and doesn't seem that ground breaking.

[@deserthighways4095]

I don't much care for the house, but it is definitely groundbreaking, and paved the way for other architects like Frank Lloyd Wright.

[@rodjohnson8953]

@@deserthighways4095 Haus Wittgenstein dates from the mid-twenties. By that point Wright was thirty years into his career and had designed many of his major works. His Prairie style houses go back to the turn of the century. The Robie House, the Ennis House, the Unity Temple, the Banff Pavilion and lots of others were well behind him before Wittgenstein even thought of the Haus.

[@o1JunHo1o]

道可道，非常道。名可名，非常名。

[@JorgeHerrera-ej5ih]

Pardon me, E. Cioran has a space in here?

[@JamesNathanielHolland]

I understand that this period was a necessary break with the past, but as it has evolved over the next hundred or so years, it has become an excuse for gimmicky and bad art. Much technique has been lost.

[@deserthighways4095]

Obviously you know nothing about art.

[@blshtry1]

This is art. Art is in the story and this has it. The problem has been a better art has not yet replaced it and lesser musicians have wandered aimlessly it its tail. I am working with an artist atm by the name of smokin speaks and his new work is unbelievable.

[@lonelykid7691]

There are some pretentious people in these comments.

[@GreenTeaViewer]

This is a misconception, based on an inability to elevate your intellect to the august level commensurate with the subject matter. Realign your perceptions, my good man!

[@Robertbrucelockhart]

Your comment identifies you as a rude and ignorant person whose attempt to participate in this forum is the very definition of pretension.

[@MegaCirse]

agree ! People need to speak out in these dire times of pandemic 🐾😺

[@Robertbrucelockhart]

Thats the call of every low-brow who stumbles into the precinct of a superior mind. 🧐

[@alexarmanpiano]

...

[@jeffreykalb9752]

The new world of madness...

[@bardoface]

Wittgenstein is easily misunderstood. Samuel Beckett understood Wittgenstein in the tragicomic absurdist sense.

[@KarenGiurdzhian]

8:30

[@nesrinakan4001]

How can I reach text?

[@allegrofilms]

Which text do you mean?

[@heheynop9996]

está brigido

[@jovesheerwater]

I would be more inclined to give Schoenberg the benefit of the doubt he he didn't always look so utterly miserable. Where's the joy? Where's the heart? Where's the acknowledgement that beyond the tragedy of life, there is the mystery of beauty and love? A man with no happiness cannot be trusted.

[@RandolSchoenberg90049]

You didn't watch the documentary, did you?

[@bardsamok9221]

This isn't Facebook buddy.

[@MexTexican]

Nothing personal but. I adore Wittgenstein but why oh why?? Do I have to listen to noise torture at the same time as learning more about My Man Ludwig??!

[@voraciousreader3341]

Because the whole point of this film is that the work of Wittgenstein and Schönberg is totally intertwined, which was repeated several times, just in case you missed it! You shouldn’t watch a film with another person’s photo in the thumbnail and with the words, “The Language of the New Music,” if you were only interested in the photo of the other guy. Don’t blame the documentary for pointing you in the wrong direction….you did _that_ all by yourself!

[@truBador2]

I like Schoenberg's music. But the idea that it is expressing some level of meaning is pure affectation, pure pretension. Stravinsky, who actually holds the title of the most influential composer of the XXth century mistakenly bestowed on Schoenberg in this documentary, said famously, "music is powerless to express anything," Here with poetic brevity Stravinsky throws down the gauntlet of reality, dumbfounding his audience with the same confident factuality that he wrote music, and demonstrating the ability of art to trump the interminable association and dissociation of hypertrophied intellects.

[@russellparratt9859]

So, who bestowed the title of "most influential composer of the XXth century" on Stravinsky? I think you are imagining that. The structural and intellectual idea of serialism, in whatever form it manifests itself, has been a far greater influence on compositional thinking than anything Stravinsky wrote. He had some early hits with Firebird and Rite of Spring, but really did nothing to advance music in the way that Schoenberg did. Serialism was as monumental a shift in compositional thinking as was the rise of diatonic harmony in the classical era.

[@truBador2]

@@russellparratt9859 Serialism barely made it out of the academy. Where is it today?. Stravinsky influenced music across the board, from classical to pop. His legacy lives today in the ongoing trends of Primitivism, Neoclassicism, Polytonality and Minimalism. That's what I mean by influential.

[@russellparratt9859]

@@truBador2 I made the mistake of not including atonalism, and aleatoric music, in my quick appraisal of Schoenberg. That changes the equation somewhat. The modernist school of music that arose after the 2nd world war championed Webern, and took experimentation in all sorts of directions, making many "first steps" that have influenced composers, and popular music, down the decades since then. It wasn't just about pure serialism. I didn't mean to imply that. I certainly acknowledge, and enjoy, the work of traditionalist composers such as Shostakovich, Britten and Rachmaninov, but it's interesting that even Shostakovich used serialism, brilliantly, in his 12th quartet. Getting back to Stravinsky, I can't fathom how neo-classicism has added anything, except for an odd cul-de-sac, to the development of music in the 20th century. It may be easy on the ears of those who can't abide by too much dissonance, as is that lazy-brain muzak known as minimalism, and it may have made Stravinsky very popular, BUT! , the funny thing is this...... After tiring of the road-to-no-where style of neoclassicism, Stravinsky, from the mid 1950's, began to adopt Serialism as a compositional process. I guess that trashes your whole argument. It all gets back to the influence of Schoenberg. To restate what I wrote earlier, his development of atonal/non-tonal music is as big an influence on the music of the 20th century as was the development of diatonic harmony on the music of the 18th century, up to the time of Wagner, who really threw the cat amongst the pigeons with Tristan and Isolde.

[@truBador2]

​@@russellparratt9859What do atonalism and aleatoric music, which are the opposite of serialism, have to do with Schoenberg's influence? I don't know what you are getting at by the reference, if anything. Stravinsky's work incorporating serialism, coming in his '70's, was not his best known or appreciated work but even there he shined. And, as with the ballet Agon, Stravinsky's best serialism is a hybrid of serialism and his own polytonality. These are primarily compositional tools. What matters is the result. And there is a lot of bad serial music. Just listen to Aaron Copeland. Where are the "hits" of serialism today? When we look at mainstream musical practice, Stravinsky's influence is still universal. You need look no further than the cinema. Cinematic music is the predominant form of orchestral music today. Go to any movie house and what are you going to hear? It will be some form of polytonality, courtesy of Stravinsky, used precisely for its ability to create a breadth and depth of mood. This is because polytonality is not a style but a technique. And during any action sequence, what are you more likely to hear ? It will be some form of rhythm driven music with its roots in the Primitivism introduced by Stravinsky. This is so true that it is invisible, like the air to the birds or water to the fish. However this bastion of modern orchestral music is conspicuously devoid of serialism. So keep believing what somebody told you in the classroom but don't forget to take in the sonic landscape for yourself.

[@russellparratt9859]

@@truBador2 Your ignorance of Schoenberg's music illustrates why you shouldn't be making sweeping statements about him. He wrote 5 Orchestral Pieces, Op 16, in 1909. He created the concept of atonality, a necessary consequence of the increasingly chromatic nature of music. Atonalism has EVERYTHING to do with Schoenberg. I used the term "aleatoric" incorrectly. I was referring to the extreme brevity used in the Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op 19, from 1911, and later in Webern's Six Bagatelles for string quartet, Op 9, from 1913. These works clearly influenced later composers. Obviously, chance was not an element used in the composition of these works.....quite the opposite.....but there is something about the nature of the music that has a distinct unpredictability about it, in complete contrast to the nature of diatonic music, where you can fairly guess where the music is going. So, I used the term "aleatoric" quite loosely. However, actual aleatoric music, as for instance in Boulez or Stockhausen, can be traced back to the beginnings in the Darmstadt school, which, as I wrote earlier, took Webern as a starting point for a new approach to composition. Of course, it all branched out in a multitude of styles and experiments, but can still be seen as a form of continuation of the break with the diatonic tradition that Schoenberg initiated. You just don't want to acknowledge it. As for film music, you'll hear the influence of Schoenberg just as much as the influence of Mahler on film score writers.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

this is "new" music?

[@voraciousreader3341]

If you have the intellectual elasticity to understand what existed at the time Schönberg’s presented his works and ideas, you would understand that it wasn’t just “new”….it was utterly confounding, infuriating, and revolutionary. Your comment shows quite precisely that his compositions have assimilated into our current musical vocabulary, that’s all. One problem is, people who use them now think they’re being original, and the other is, that Schönberg’s music theory is far too difficult for them to learn, but that they’ve absorbed his tonal ideas without blinking. Which is great!

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

@@voraciousreader3341 Whose musical vocabulary? The work of say, Van Doesberg in architecture, had an enormous impact - you can see it simply by walking down the streets of any major city. Or Picasso in painting. It's undeniable that he had an impact on how we represent the world in visual art. Now. Let's hear an example of comparable magnitude with regard to atonality in music. You won't. Simply because it doesn't exist outside of the rarified and artificial environment of the classroom or faculty lounge. It has virtually zero cultural relevance compared to Jazz which DID expand our musical vocabulary. Arnold wanted to guarantee the supremacy of German music for 100 years. Did he?

[@Soytu19]

I think you cant call the music from the XX century "music". Durig this time art was more and more connected with languaje, i mean human languaje. The previous years, from Bach to the romantic era, music was more institusionalized. However, in the XX century there was this total break with hat it was seen as pure music and pure art. Now music was more humane, and less art for the sake of art. This even happened in the sounds!

[@jeffreykalb9752]

There is no idea, no matter how outrageous, that has not been adopted by some philosopher somewhere. And the music of Schonberg has simply ceased to be aesthetic at all.

[@anthonykenny1320]

viennese modernism is a form of fascism, architecture that defied the human scale and music that cannot be danced to or hummed but only "appreciated", what would a Greek temple look like if it was designed by a functionalist, a shoe box as would a school or an office building, and if all music was atonal cacophony what tune would you whistle while you work? Le Corbusier wanted to demolish Paris and build shoe box apartments

[@rondullemans3024]

What a load of rubbish, your argument is pure ignorance.

[@rondullemans3024]

Die Phrase ist das Ornament des Geistes, Karl Kraus.Exceptionally astute observer. The neo classical architecture before Alfred Loos and Otto Wagner was dead and empty. Just like the Habsburg Empire. That was also the start of the very begining of fascism as we know it. The virulent anti semitism of the mayor of Vienna at that time, Karl Lueger.

[@finosuilleabhain7781]

+ Anthony Kenny Why should music be limited to that which can be readily hummed or whistled? And much of the music heard in this programme belies the facile equating of atonality with cacophony. As Charles Ives said, stand up and use your ears like a man (words to that effect).

[@JafuetTheSame]

hows that fascism?

[@JafuetTheSame]

and btw im humming berg's and schoenberg's melodies quite often...but not webern. not gonna lie

[@anthonykenny1320]

lets face it the "honesty" of modernism is bloody ugly, flat plain walls geometric grids, bland lack of humor, they were such earnest young men, without a shred of self mockery

[@ntodd4110]

If you aren't conversant in the stylistic gestures of Viennese architecture as it existed at the turn of the century, you can't properly interpret the forms that modernism took.

[@smkh2890]

Schonburg's style of music has found a home..in horror films!

[@bastianconrad2550]

Atonal music corresponds to a rational and probably less to an emotional need.

[@walterleipzig]

Missed Karl Popper.

[@ntodd4110]

Russell, Carnap, Ayer, and Schlick, too. That's because Wittgenstein left them behind. He truly believed he had gone as far with analytic philosophy as it would go. The guys in the Vienna Circle begged him to expand on the Tractatus, but he meant what he said about having solved those problems for good, and that's when he completely stopped doing philosophy. You gotta admire that integrity.

[@dimitri1946]

These fellows were pioneers in cliquish creative artist groups who came to be labelled among other things as the "degenerate moderns." Taking one's clue clue from this label why revel in "art" forms that glorify decomposition or deconstruction? It just goes nowhere. Today these fellows have no "following" except for those in academia who still sit around pondering what it all meant when it meant nothing but human degeneration.

[@voraciousreader3341]

Your comment simply shows that you understand nothing about the ideas expressed in this film, that’s all, and that perhaps your mind isn’t ready for such ideas. After all, one of the most predictable tendencies of the human mind is to completely close when it encounters incompatible information. Also, Hitler called Schönberg’s music “degenerate” and ordered that it be burned….this is something to attempt to wrap your mind around for quite awhile.

[@carlosenrique5299]

@@voraciousreader3341 Many like tonal music and a few like the manipulation of sounds that we have come to today. Schömberg as a tonal composer is fully accepted in the history of music. His atom experiments do not live up to the expectations of the general public, neither his more radical atonalisms nor those of Berg, Webern, Stockhausen or Boulez. That is not the path, except for a few enthusiasts and snobs, no matter how much the institutions swallow to force the general public to recognize the dubious value of his works compared to those of the great masters of all time.

[@jeffreykalb9752]

Wittgenstein, hard at work to destroy the existing culture, longed for the time when Europe would produce a new culture. He deserves no sympathy, only scorn.

[@joefilter2923]

“Absolute unity of sound and expression”!? What nonsense; the music does no such thing. Instead it’s a soundtrack to a weird movie that you regret you paid for. The script explains a little. I’m not sure that Wittgenstein ever had a satisfactory resolution like Abu Hamid Ghazali. Wittgenstein went up a ladder but couldn’t get back down - dissolution but no return and re-integration.

[@voraciousreader3341]

@Joe Filter - Don’t condemn something just because you didn’t understand it! I would bet all of my assets that you’ve never read all of Wittgenstein’s work, yet you write your thoughts as though they reflect everyone’s truth, when they are nothing of the kind. Clearly, the “nonsense” belongs to you, and you’re the only one who can figure that out!

[@Jeannekm126]

Schoenberg was the messiah of music.

[@quickthunder86]

This is what I call "real pretentiousness", ladies and gentlemen - not some poor prog-rock musicians (as punks and rock critics did think in the seventies).

[@johnryskamp7755]

Make sure you read Alejandro Garciadiego, Bertrand Russell and the Origins of the Set-theoretic "Paradoxes." It debunks paradox once and for all, and will tell you why Wittgenstein's reputation has collapsed. I don't think Schoenberg ever heard of Wittgenstein. This documentary is shallow and uninformed.

[@voraciousreader3341]

Your comment is “shallow” and shows that you didn’t understand what it presented….after all, a person who believes one book can “debunk paradox once and for all” is not using the greater part of his grey matter, because he has lost the ability to question. We meet paradox every day of our lives, but most are tone deaf to it. Anyone can deny it doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t make it true!

[@4FYTfa8EjYHNXjChe8xs7xmC5pNEtz]

Couldn't get past the weird fruity music that kept leaping up and shoving itself into your face every time the narrator made a point. Gave up after five minutes. Too bad, seemed promising.

[@davidforbes2795]

Well you missed a lot!!!!!

[@voraciousreader3341]

@K - I have no idea what you mean by “fruity,” but your opinion shows you know absolutely nothing about it….so who’s “fruity”?!? I understand it quite well, so I guess this isn’t meant for people who don’t know anything about Western classical music. It was _you_ who missed the “promising” information….the documentary lost none of its value!

[@Bishbashboshboshbosh]

That music is crazy annoying.

[@celticwinter]

Not that I would approve of it, but observing Kokoschka grotesque paintings, hearing Schoenbergs cacophonic atonal music and having cities littered with soulless "modern" buildings - you can see where the "entartete Kunst" train of thought was coming from.

[@ntodd4110]

Yeah. From fucking Nazis, that's who - and not by accident. They were the grandfathers of today's oh-so-earnest "culture warriors". Pure reactionaries. 'Twas ever thus...

[@TheNoblot]

comfortably numb 😥🎹🎺🎷🎵 The main problem could be minds🤔 Intelligence, the facts indicate that during Plato's time there existed intelligent fellows like Socrates & plato Aristoteles, however they had no tools to express themselves technology was not that efficient as today 😥 In 2020 we are having an inverse problema ⚙ we have wonderful tools, 5 G wireless phones & satellites / unfortunately no brains 🧠 no philosophers that can guide the lot, a plane ✈🚀🚁 that works wonders and no pilots that can drive it 😥 humans are becoming numb comfortably numb 💤💤😴😴. the current intellectual & economical elites are useless 🕳💫〽☢☣/ peculiar realm the total opposite than 20000 years ago . from a circle of enlighten to a circle of ignorance 🤷‍♂️

[@jkovert]

"THE New Music," as if it were ever a thing. Balderdash.

[@johnryskamp2943]

This is complete nonsense, showing NO understanding of either. Shallow idiocy.

[@voraciousreader3341]

That’s your opinion, but I cannot call your opinion educated. Because it’s not!

[@AudioPervert1]

the film itself starts with a disgusting icon of europe's past - the rotten civilization and church bells ... Hmmm !! Nice lets see ...