The Lasting Impact of ARR's Finale on FFXIV

[@OPickler]

I think you were absolutely spot on up until you said theyve regained some of that trust in storytelling. There are simply too many characters who have no business still being alive if it werent for fan popularity. The writing of this game loves fake out deaths far too much for me to ever believe a character is dead unless theyre an unimportant side character

[@StarAether]

You know, I agree with you that they didn’t really learn. But I wanted to be positive and maybe defended the devs a little too easily. I do think they scaled back and didn’t have multiple fake-outs on the scale of the banquet ever again, but they continue to have many instances of it and continue to bring characters back individually. So in that sense, yeah, they learned nothing 😭

[@warbossspincrusha6404]

@@StarAetherI may be remembering wrong (spoiler warning for shadowbringers) but didn't y'shtola have no consequences the second time she pulled the entering into the lifestream bs?

[@FlameWish]

@@warbossspincrusha6404 Entirely unnecessary for them to put her in that spot again. As much as ES's mastery allows him to safely retrieve her, it feels like they're emphasizing her plot armor. I also didn't feel Thancred was truly endangered in his showdown against Ran'jit, even if it felt like he could have died shortly after winning or renaming Ryne...because he's a fan favourite.

[@aerieleah533]

​@FlameWish I think they needed someone to have some consequence that only he could fix. It did fit into the narrative neatly, since she did it once before. But yes, it does bother me because I truly don't believe most of the Scions could ever die.

[@shepherdstar14]

I think the Scions shoulf have stayed in retirement, maybe after 7.1 that can actually happen and we get new casts of characters and maybe better writing.

[@pridefall3304]

I really appreciate that you don’t waste time with rehashing the story. Too many creators think a story recap is the same as an analysis when they don’t have anything meaningful to say. Quality work here. Edit: To answer the question, it never bothered me personally. I took a "go along for the ride" mindset and didn't really have strong expectations either way. I think it helps I'm a really into jrpg so I kinda expect that they'll do crazy stuff out of nowhere. I can see how it would be disappointing for a lot of ppl tho

[@Dezzy2178]

Tnahitashitty video padding for no reason

[@abcdefgh-tb1yz]

simp lmao

[@delsingray5923]

It's common in easy writing in general

[@elaine_of_shalott6587]

I thought at the time that having Nanamo be alive was a little disappointing, but overall from ARR-EW Nanamo's character arc is so well written that I'd never sacrifice it for the shock value of her staying dead. I'm more concerned about some of the later choices on fake-out deaths. I think we need to lose a Scion permanently soon or we'll lose all sense of dramatic tension when they are in mortal peril.

[@grantshealy4512]

My vote would be Urianger. Not because I dislike him or anything, but his would be a shocking death and a less obvious choice than someone like Thancred (since he's always in some kind of mortal peril each expansion). They could be really cruel and kill one of the twins, but I would hate them for it and I don't think they have the stones to do that lol

[@cryssanie]

@@grantshealy4512 I think if you wanted the most shock factor you would kill off Y'shtola, because we've seen her in a "fake death" situation before and she is so simped on that everyone just feels like they would never kill her for real.

[@StarAether]

I am happy with her and Raubahn’s character growth! It’s just not really what I’d expected from the story at the time so that “what if” lingers in the back of my mind 😭 I don’t think we need to lose a scion per se, but we need some kind of permanent damage in some way that shows a “we’re taking this seriously the kid gloves are off” moment from the writers. Doubt it will happen at this point tho tbh

[@redgeoblaze3752]

@@cryssanie Something that I think could create some excellent storytelling opportunities is killing off one of the twins. They should never do that though because they're my babies, and I'll tear anyone who touches even a hair on their heads limb from limb. But it would definitely help their character development out a lot. I'd probably give Alphy the axe if I had to choose. Alisaie had a partial character arc that was kind of cut short by Shadowbringers happening, and she even commented on the lack of personal development in the 5.3 ending. The twins have always been two sides of the same coin, and the only time we really see them separated is in ARR, and a bit of Stormblood patch content. Despite how they bicker and fight, they balance each other out, and they need each other. Alisaie has always acted like she doesn't really need him, so suddenly losing her brother would cause an extreme amount of turmoil. The other major issue is that both Alphinaud and Alisaie are prominent characters in the Bahamut raids, which can be done at any time. It's one thing for Thancred and Urianger to be back in the first if you decide to wait until you get past endwalker to do the Eden Raids, or for Arenvald to be up and walking if you want to do the Summoner level 80 quest as anything but your first job, but characters showing up alive again is probably a step too far. In this vein, there's no scions that won't break something. Urianger was in the Bahamut and Eden raids, Thancred was in Eden too, Y'shtola was in the optional trial series in Heavensward. Even Tataru was in the trial series in Stormblood, and Krile has Eureka. G'raha and Estinien are self explanatory.

[@teeswaga]

I still miss Papa.

[@firefly1509]

You're not wrong, but at the same time I think they played it as well as they could've, and (as you rightly pointed out) there's only so much they could do in an MMO setting. Coming from the perspective of playing MMORPGs mostly back in the 00s and then deciding to try out FFXIV, I was already massively impressed by the level of storytelling possible in such a setting that I guess I didn't really think that much about it, although indeed looking purely at the story I can see why it ended up being a bit awkward. I think the fact that there _are_ some consequences (even if relatively minor) is already a big improvement over basically any other MMORPG I've played (which, admittedly, was mostly a long time ago). Some level of suspension of disbelief is always needed in MMOs anyhow, which will always affect immersion..

[@StarAether]

That’s a fair point and I always love to hear the perspective of mmo fans. I’ve played a lot of Final Fantasy, which is where my expectation comes from, but XIV is my first mmo. You’re right that there‘a not a lot of focus on story in mmos and that’s what’s made xiv unique.

[@evacody1249]

​@StarAether some call FF14 and RPGMMO. As in the RPG and story come frist and the MMO part is 2nd.

[@cuterpooter]

@StarAether As someone with almost opposite experience as you (played many many many MMOs over the decades, with FFXIV being my first FF game), the downside to closing off areas of the world due to story status is really toxic to player enjoyment. Something that MMO devs have learned the hard way is that players want to...play together. Artificial blockages due to level, story-gating or other things just feels frustrating and terrible both from the veteran player's perspective wanting to help a friend join the game, and from the new players POV being "left behind" in starter areas which would become ghost towns because the rest of the playerbase is mainly at end game. GW2 attempted to have permanent changes occur in world events and maps based on story events and all it did was make guilds and friend groups have to choose between exploring new content or abandoning those who hadn't yet advanced far enough to join. FATEs & dungeon roulettes in FF14, dynamic events & WvWvW in GW2, invasions in RIFT, etc are all ways that devs have worked to keep new entrants to the game and veteran players connected and well-mixed.

[@boanoah6362]

@@cuterpooter This is ESPECIALLY true when you realize that GW2 did that, decided it was a bad idea, and then SOLD that content in the cash shop. I can't imagine FFXIV would've survived Heavensward if they sold 'Nanamo's murder' on the cash shop for new players joining the game after it's already happened...

[@Saber_234]

I think the thing about the Bloody Banquet that sticks out the most in my mind for how stupid/funny it is, is how Merlwyb sees Raubahn lose an arm and then goes “Seven Hells!” and awkwardly walks out of the room along with Kan-E like she doesn’t carry a gun

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

She ain't creatin' no international incident! :D

[@boanoah6362]

I loved that part, because it's like 'yeah this ain't my problem' which is true, but it REALLY undermines the idea that everyone is working together on friendly terms.

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

@@boanoah6362 Come now, there were *never* working together on friendly terms - that's what made the Eorzean Alliance so interesting. I'm disappointed that they made everyone so lovey-dovey and allied in everything in later expansions. That edge of every nation carefully avoiding the entanglements of others is and always has been my favorite aspect of FFXIV.

[@fkhamilton]

Overall I think I agree that the Bloody Banquet was a net good for the game and its story, but the speed with which Raubahn and the Sultana plotlines were resolved is my biggest problem with it. I understand they probably felt they needed to resolve it quickly so players could focus on the Dragonsong War, but if they'd stretched it out a bit more and gave you more chances to learn what Lolorito had done and what his plans might be yourself I think it would have felt more appropriate. As it is, having him just show up, tell you what he did and why, but everything is fine now and forgiven just feels really abrupt. Also I think it would have helped more in the long run because Lolorito later on is a much more complicated character than those initial interactions suggest and I feel that could have been a good chance to plant those seeds.

[@SerothTalon]

I really appreciate the bloody banquet. I often tell my friends that I didn't really realize how much I loved the narrative of FFXIV until the credits rolled for ARR. And the subsequent bloody banquet takes that warm feeling and completely flips it back on you. You had been given a very safe "you are the chosen one" story and then had it pulled out from under you. You then are sent on the run, to a rival country, where you have to not only find a way to protect yourself and the adorable potato who came with you. But also convince the leaders that you are trustworthy, all while searching for even a shred of a lead on your missing friend. The not-death of Nanamo doesn't really bother me, because it is telling that same story we were learning with Alphinaud, "blind idealism won't protect you from the people who don't share your morals". Nanamo has to learn to be a smarter leader, not just a "good" one. The larger issue I have is that Nanamo, Merlwyb, and Kan-E-Senna allpretty much disappear from the larger narrative at this point. We get a great story with Rauban, which I loved. But the big 3 just kinda fade out and make guest appearances at award ceremonies. I am a firm believer that a character death doesn't have to be permanent to be meaningful. As long as it is done well. Nanamo's not-death served the narrative in important ways. The largest of which is teaching her and the player a lesson. They could have left her dead, but it doesn't really serve the story to do so. It would just be a gut punch for gut-punching's sake. The bloody banquet and the subsequent fallout serve to teach the WoL that they should strive to be better, to not see the world for black and white. Haurchefant's sacrifice tells them that they believe in your ability to be the hero people have been telling you you are. This is your "Do or do not, there is no try" moment. I can't speak to subsequent character deaths or revivals as I am not fully up to date. But I can say that I believe the bloody banquet served more good than not for the game. (Also, I, for one, was very disappointed that I couldn't use Alexander to bring back Haurchefant)

[@LtOuroumov]

I played most of ARR and HW as a healer main (Scholar then Astrologian) and the dissonance was very real. Nanamo gets poisoned? I have Esuna and 10 different healing spells. Haurchefant takes a spear of light to the gut? I have Ascend and 10 different healing spells.

[@SerothTalon]

@@LtOuroumov I had a similar feeling playing HW as a Dragoon. HW plays Estinien off as some sort of stoic badass, but you already know from the class quest that he is a buffoon. And then his entire character arc in that expansion is trivialized by the fact that you are also an Azure Dragoon, and for some reason have none of the side effects that plague him the whole time. Also, for what its worth, you thought Nanamo was dead and got chased off pretty quickly.

[@aidanmillow566]

I personally still feel very fond of the ARR finale and honestly don't agree that it felt like it lacked consequences. In a real sense this is the death of Minfilia; she just has cameos as a ghost for another few patches. I think the undoing of the other losses does actually feel satisfying (this is as someone who was a fan of Digimon Adventure as a kid and still has fond memories of the regular occasions on which the group got split up and spent an arc or so finding each other again) and Lolorito's co-opting of the plan works well as a way to justify not actually locking you out of the main cities. When I don't believe a death in FFXIV I'm definitely not thinking about Nanamo, I'm thinking more about the myriad dramatic wounds that various scions have suffered and recovered from across the story.

[@Heathiekins]

My viewpoint is a little different from many. I see a lot of negative things in the world around me. I see video games as an escape, and recoil from games where I feel there is no hope, and Game of Thrones (though not a game) would is something I say away from. I find "good guys win" as a comfort, and "Oh that isn't going to work; let's fix that in post" as a nice reminder that things can always get better. I am able to continue through the game, despite bad things happening, because I know it's a game, an MMO, and that to make more story, I have to be okay in the end. Thank you for this video! It's interesting to remember all the stakes that were removed in Heavensward.

[@StarAether]

Tbh if I take off my literary analysis hat, I’m the same 😅 I don’t like dark stories and want happy endings and adventure that can let me escape from reality. I think bittersweet endings are good too, but too dark and it kinda loses me. I guess that’s why I’m still such a huge FF fan, cause their stories are generally optimistic at heart

[@KooriGraywolf]

One of the reasons why Heavensward is my favorite expansion is because that's the last time the writers had the guts to truly kill off an important character. Every subsequent expansion has been filled with fake deaths. There was one in Shadowbringers that had a great emotional buildup towards a major death and they just... Survive?? As you said I think this is where MMO logistics come in because the character was filling out an important role in Trusts. I choose to believe that's why that character lived. As much as I love Nanamo or precisely because of that, I was disappointed at her return too, but I think it was totally worth it for that emotional scene with her and Raubahn in post-Stormblood patches in the castle garden

[@LunarFae-]

Spoilers!!! I agree that too many fake out deaths can be frustrating, especially in the case of Y’shtola haha. But with the banquet I wasn’t as bothered by it. Permanent character death is not the only way to have consequences in a story, and it can be just as damaging if it’s used as the sole way to show bad things happen. The scions end up separated from each other and MIA/exiled for quite some time. With the exception of Aymeric and the Fortemps, Ishgardians aren’t exactly friendly to you at first either. While you can visit Ul’dah for gameplay reasons (grand company, side quests, etc), it isn’t treated as if you are openly going there on a story level until you’re specifically called back. If half the scions were killed right then, they would have to be replaced by new characters that we wouldn’t know in either Stormblood or Shadowbringers, which would have hurt those expansions along with Endwalker in the long run. This isn’t counting Minfilia, whose brief appearances before Shadowbringers are essentially as a mouthpiece for Hydaelyn. She can’t exist as she was before and can’t be with the people she loves, she’s functionally dead up until her last scene as herself when she actually dies. I think if they simply eased off of scion fake deaths and gave more of them besides Thancred and G’raha something more concretely personal they have to lose it wouldn’t seem as bad.I don’t think the zero plot armor style is the kind of story they’re looking to tell, but we could get surprises in future expansions.

[@Celis.C]

The fact that the FF franchise has you traveling with companions that you become invested in is both a great strength, as well as a major weakness. Like you said: removing beloved characters in whatever way will hurt player retention, but the tragedy that occurred at Kyoto animation shows another dark side to doing so, especially this far into the game and player investment. SPOILERS from this point on: One thing I thoroughly appreciate - particularly from Shadowbringers onward, and more so than Ysayle and Nidhogg - is the writers portraying Emet-Selch as a proper _antagonist_ rather than a cartoon-style 'villain'. This latter is an American narrative that has been grating me for the longest time. People aren't just evil - they have their history, their reasons, their motivations, their resolve. This clashes with the goals of the protagonist, and that's what makes them an antagonist. Someone who's goals actively clash with those of the protagonist, but that doesn't make them 'evil' in the process. If the current antagonist was the protagonist of their own story, then our current protagonist would be their antagonist. It's just a matter of perspective. A 'villain' is just a harmful political narrative. There are definitely classical examples of 'villains' in FFXIV. Think the creep of 'burn out the bad'. Such characters are the result of their environment. In this case: a messed up Garlean power hierarchy that allows this type of character to develop and thrive, rather that being put behind bars. That being said, I still struggle to fully grasp how Fandaniel became so... unhinged. XIV story-telling has absolutely improved over the years. I look forward to seeing what they've got in store for us in Dawntrail :)

[@KitaBFawkes]

Spoilers, because we're commenting on the spoilers posted above Emet-Selch wanted to commit a genocide. That is... clearly evil, and makes him a clear villain. It was nice to see the machinations of his mind that led him to that position... but like... genocidal maniac. Come on. That's pretty cut and dry "evil."

[@Celis.C]

@@KitaBFawkes _"Would you refrain from reclaiming your home simply because a colony of ants has started living there?"_ From our perspective, us being the ants, your point makes sense. Emet clearly stated how he views life of the shards. It's not like humanity hasn't committed horrible atrocities against life other than humans, yet we don't think of that as genocide. It still remains a matter of perspective

[@KitaBFawkes]

@@Celis.C The fact of the matter is that he takes a large group of people and does not view them as people. They aren't ants. They are fully expressive beings with emotions, thoughts, motivations, *personhood*. He is the equivalent of a Nazi dismissing the personhood of people he views as "lesser." It is not a matter of perspective. It is a matter of him thinking his people are ubermensch and the denizens of the sundered worlds as not people. That you are very willing to let the genocidal maniac frame the conversation and set the boundaries "as a matter of perspective" is uhhh... wow. Like, the whole reason he allows himself to eventually align with the WoL is because he finally sees them as *people.*

[@StarAether]

I’m always reminded of Handsome Jack from Borderlands. He was a genocidal psycho but he really truly believed he was doing the right thing and he was written so well we believe it

[@Adorni]

@@KitaBFawkes Bear in mind I’m speaking from an interpretive perspective here, but Emet-Selch, basically being the one to bear the burden of his people - their hopes, their lives, and everything else that came with them - had to rationalize his actions in such a way as to continue moving forward with them. He acted as a man who _knew_ the atrocities he was doing, and he hated it. It’s subtle, but his actions in Shadowbringers, and further contextualized through Endwalker, show someone who wants so very desperately to be proven wrong, so that he can lay his burdens down, and achieve that peace that he wants. The problem is that he cannot bring himself to do so- even if the Scions could prove they had what it took to pass their trial by fire, hundreds of thousands of years living among humanity and seeing their inability to rise above their baser natures had driven that hope to bitter despair, such that the Scions were the exception, not the rule. And to that end he had to continue to try and save what he lost. This doesn’t make his actions less villainous, mind you. But with the position he found himself in, his options were to give in to his despair, find someone who could show him he and his colleagues’ actions weren’t the only way, or carry on with his intended goals. He couldn’t do the first, couldn’t find the second, and couldn’t ignore the last.

[@MyGameVideosOnline]

Whatever the writers did in the past, it's completely forgiven in my book. The way they tied the base game and every single expansion together over the years, and the amazing story overall is just jaw-dropping.

[@shepherdstar14]

It was up until the postgame of endwalker.

[@frousen]

I remember when I got to this part, I realised that the changing the game world to match a story beat would have been too much work for them to do, so I just basically stayed out of Ul'dah until coming back made sense in the story, to save my immersion :P

[@Manavine]

it would also have completely locked anyone out of ul'dah housing as well as screw over immortal flame players, AS WELL as remove endgame people from Ul'dah, which if noticed, would spoil the hell out of what's coming at the banquet without anyone needing to say a word.

[@KingLycoris]

I think a major problem is that most of the major characters are related to various past quest lines of some sort (The Crystal Tower, warring triad, and eden for the scions for example) which make it hard for them to get killed off and not throw a continuity error... but ARR Urianger is still praying we return to the waking sands, so I guess that doesn't really matter much. 😂

[@maj0ga.]

The only thing I didn't like was them deciding to bring Nanamo back, Y'shtola and Thancred made sense for a return. However it changed my view that anytime I saw a death I'd get the feeling, nope not dead. I think that's why Y'sale and Haurchefant have such a big impact on people. Moenbryda I felt nothing because they brought in a new character just to die. Aymeric had a dramatic stabbing that was quickly overturned in the next scene. Gosetsu got the Nanamo treatment without actually worried he actually died. Shadowbringers I was expecting Y'shtola to make a return and Thancred falling after Ranjit's retreat felt like a good time for him, but predictably overturned. I expected no main character deaths in Endwalker even at the end during their "sacrifices". I even think Zenos is still alive still! 😂 I expect nothing different in Dawntrail with one or two small red herrings for a 5 min "just kidding"

[@ExileTwilight]

Re: Aymeric stabbing.. I'd have honestly been upset if he died to a knife in his fully armored gut.. That was the more immersive breaking part of that to me xD

[@petrus9067]

​@ExileTwilight tangential and specific, but aren't knives one of the best weapons against armor IF you can get up close and surprise your oponent? I might be wrong but you can just say they found a small opening in his armor or something haha

[@ExileTwilight]

@@petrus9067 Knives and swords are good against full armor if you can wrestle your opponent down to get at an opening and push it through. They cannot magically phase through a full chestplate where Aymeric was stabbed.. Basically a drive-by stabbing against armor would need to be very lucky (or they could have aimed for his unprotected head.. But then he'd pretty much have to have died so..)

[@StarAether]

Aymeric’s stabbing left me thinking “wait what” They really should’ve had him in his casual outfit so it made more sense imo

[@maj0ga.]

I personally just assumed he got stabbed in the kidney around where an armor seem might be

[@aylio3745]

I appreciate your analysis. I loved this moment and the consequences. I think though that to say we didn't lose any scions is inaccurate. Minfillia never came back. The alternate Minfillia we got back was a whole different character and became a plot device. Papalymo also got destroyed. We got to see him only for a few moments more just before storm blood before his death and thus he lost his chance to become remotely as fleshed out as any of the other scions up to that point. The rest you've already mentioned but they felt weightier than they seem to have for you. The whole Ala Mhigo and Garlemald restoration stories would have never worked without it for example. And Eorzea suddenly became alive. There were more to those NPCs than we ever gave them credit for before then. And this has been reinforced in almost every side quest and job quest story since.

[@StarAether]

You’re right about that for sure. I kinda came at it from an “in the moment” perspective, meaning no one died then in the banquet, but as a result of knock on effects. So maybe I was a bit harsh 😅

[@Kakyo01]

While not a consequence of the ARR-story and with no impact to the current players, but those who started with 1.0 never got their Yda back. A character most players never met and we're told (and somewhat shown in the side stories on the lodestone) that Yda died between 1.0 and ARR and it was an imposter all along.

[@AltaMillia]

The end of ARR still remains my favourite (standalone) part of XIV as a whole. I remember little of 2.1-2.4 but I can replay 2.5 in my head scene for scene. Really wish it lasted longer, and that it mattered more. Had it happened in 2.3 or 4 and lasted until 3.0, I think it’d have felt great and added so much more to ARR. If 2.5 was the mid point of a single player FF game, it would probably be my favourite FF by a mile. But overall I didn’t think much on it at the time, and just enjoyed it and 3.0 for what they were.

[@Zeathian]

We had to convince a friend to keep playing, since the banquet pissed him off so much. That it took away his player agency, cause if it was up to him he'd kill as many brass blades/crystal braves until the rest stand down.

[@StarAether]

Dang I hope he made it through. I’ve heard of a few other people that felt like that so he’s definitely not alone in his frustration

[@sirtacovi3262]

I like to think that's why Dark Knight isn't available until you get to Ishgard. No true Dark Knight would have ever let that happen!

[@Zeathian]

@@StarAether He clamed down after a couple of days. His next breaking point was Zenos.

[@mydearaurora]

I'm on the other end of this spectrum and I didn't know there are a lot of people who think that when certain character die they might not actually be dead because throughout the story from ARR to the latest expansion characters that I fell in love with tend to die so I live in a constant fear of who's gonna go next hahahaha

[@Benjerman]

I agree with most of this, except for the bit about the scions. Minfilla never comes back in the same capacity as before, and this completely reshapes the scions because they don't just have someone sitting at base telling them where to go and what to do. I think it was ultimately for the best though

[@Cobra0798]

what disappointed me about how they handled the bloody banquet was not only the revival of nanamo, but the speed at which the situation was resolved. When lolorito straight up came up to everyone and told everyone what actually happened, it felt like a cheap irrelevant side plot rather than a nation's leadership potentially crumbling. They really should have given the whole subplot more than a few quests, and not put the resolution in 3 quests right before going to the Aery.

[@QuietlyNerding]

they could have probably done a full expansion on the unraveling of the bloody banquet. And it probably could have been really cool.

[@cdsbradley]

Somehow, Nanamo returned.

[@JackWolf1]

Personal opinion: I feel the same way about the 2.X patch quests the same way I feel about the main AAR story, in that the get a little bit of lenience due to being the first expansion. The team, like the Scions, had to learn to keep their ambitions in check, and they very much did learn from this. It’s still a good story for what it is, though I do still mourn the fact that we can now never get Crystal Brave specific armor and weapons in the game as it has forever been tainted.

[@petrus9067]

One of those details in 2.X that makes you go "oh man" is that when you capture the ivy for good and they are saying how she is a traitor, illberd says something like "i'd rather cut my own arm than harm a friend". Then the bloddy banquet happens x') Also Wilred's death in those patches.. man it's so gut wrenching because he was like

[@StarAether]

Wilred deserved better 😭

[@kay_faraday]

replaying the game makes the ivy capture seem like it was made before they decided to make the braves, or at least Ilberd, betray you. Like, there's a bunch of shady behavior. In 2.5. In 2.4 they all still seem completely sincere. It's weird. also I still feel pain thinking about Wilred's fate ;~;

[@PunqueEssays]

!! Shadowbringers and Stormblood spoilers !! I think CBU3 learned a lesson from the banquet when it came to character and world consequences. There is a noticeable shift in the way they frame events starting in StB, like how they start revealing events to the player without revealing them to characters - Gosetsu and Tsuyu's deaths are a fake-out for the characters, but they audience is aware of their survival almost immediately. In a similar vein, the restoration of night in Shadowbringers was framed in such a way that there could be active changes in the world unique to every players progress in the story, and how parts of the Kholousia map can change based on your progress in the NieR raid series. I think the banquet was a great plot point, and the scenario-writing lessons the XIV team took away from it were more than enough to make up for the missteps they made in the banquet's fallout. Loved your analysis, great video!

[@Yume03]

I absolutely agree with the video premise that there is little to no stakes in a story without consequences, but weirdly that’s my favorite part of FFXIV. Personally I greatly enjoy FFXIV specifically because of the predictable good endings. I’m a nervous person and I like to escape into media that makes me feel good and happy, hopeful. FFXIV is a good blend of excitement and grief but to a point that still makes me feel sure it’ll all end well. That assurance is why I love it and what I appreciate the most. Hauchefant death still haunts me to this day as he was my favorite character and tbh I often HC him still alive removing another consequence from the story for myself 😅.

[@walterkrueger5947]

The thing that annoys me is Y'shtola can read even though she's suppose to be blind.

[@litewave5186]

supposedly the ink they use is made of aether, which she can see

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

@@litewave5186 Isn't everything made of aether?

[@apophisrising6154]

@@litewave5186 She could also see Alphinaud's painting of Thancred, which still bugs me to this day

[@satousays]

My spouse started playing FFXIV before I did, and I had just happened to see Nanamo on the floor in passing, and somehow remembered it, so leading up to the end of ARR I was filled with dread; a tense, dramatic dread. I knew something was going to happen to Nanamo, and I love her. That small spoiler I feel actually added a lot to my experience as a player, as I was so emotionally invested in where the story was going. In the aftermath, I held the tension and played along, I suppose, avoiding Ul'dah and if I was there then I would be wearing a special glam with a large-brimmed hat, as my WoL was in disguise to hide from the guards. My friends and I refer to the end of ARR as ARR The Movie, and all come together to watch it every time a player in our friend group gets to it. A group catharsis as we experience it again and all cry together. (Something we tend to do when we can for various plot points, but has been the most consistent for the end of ARR). FFXIV's narrative is so good, including its hefty doses of emotional damage, which I like to relive when I can. (as infrequent as it tends to be amidst work and other responsibilities). Circling back to your video content, there are some moments of reduced dramatic tension due to knowing characters will not die, but I feel like I have generally associated that with spoilers - sometimes just from having watched trailers from beyond my current expansion. (Finishing Stormblood I was so confused about Zenos' position at that point of the story versus the Endwalker trailer). Sometimes fanart or memes actually adds to the tension, like, two different fan comics I saw online shortly after the Endwalker release, one showing one particular scion defintely surviving, but another making me very concerned about another, and being so tense and crying a lot during their section of Ultima Thule. Ultima Thule is a section full of emotion and tears in general, but even with the walking back and plot armor in the story up to that point, I still was not sure who would or would not survive. Perhaps I am a simple player. I enjoyed ARR, which ended with some of the emotional damage I have come to expect from this franchise. Heavensward was amazing and I adored it. Stormblood was hard because the depictions of war were heavy and raw, but that came via amazing storytelling, and I love everything about the Azem Steppe and its tribes. Shadowbringers was such a good storyline, (aside perhaps from the train section,) that is just, so excellent I started reccomending this game to anyone who would listen. Shadowbringers blew me away and then Endwalker did too. All this to say that I love the game's narrative as a piece of literature, and find most of the storylines and their consequences satisfying. (Yotsuyu's story arch felt cut too short, with such interesting moral quandaries to consider and explore, and, oops, no, how did it just jump to being over? It felt really well set up and then cut off short before it was finished, and I'd be more exact but I do not want to spoil anyone here).

[@ExileTwilight]

Heavensward Patch Spoilers and some minor Stormblood mentions I agree that the result of the banquet made me doubt that Papaylymo had actually died. I had completely forgotten how the Thamaturge guild leader looked, so when I saw him during the Stormblood finale (lala in robes and with bandaged face) I thought that was Papalymo in disguise until the whole thing was finished with no reveal.. >.>;

[@StarAether]

What a disappointment that must have been 😭

[@PipoPoppy]

Sent here by the algorithm and really enjoyed this video! So many story analysis videos consider story summary actual analysis and I love you for avoiding that issue. The script is concise, the analysis perceptive of all nuances in the story (and from a development standpoint, too, which I think people undersell a bunch because criticism shouldn't depend on it or be swayed by it because no matter how tough the development conditions a game is a game and a story a story.) And I very much agree with your sentiment on death within the story. I think FF14's biggest storytelling flaw (outside of its prose, which is another topic entirely) is in how it handles death, but in my eyes it's actually one specific trope that's the biggest issue, and that is the fake death framing. Yes, characters surviving over and over again can really tamper with the sense of tension, but even that issue can be softened somewhat if you just put characters in danger rather than frame their fate as if they might be dead. Y'Shtola is the biggest offender of this because I actually think Thancred's lack of ability to manipulate aether actually becomes more relevant than you posit in the video. He has to rely on everyone else to imbue his bullets for him in Shadowbringers and would be pretty helpless without his friends in that case. But I also think it still *feels* like a slap on the wrist because everyone else covers for his flaw. A lot of people posit the idea that a Scion should be killed to bring back the tension, but I think giving consequences to Y'Shtola sight and Thancred's inability to manipulate aether already would go a long way, for two exmples. Separate them from people who cover their weaknesses and create new struggles for them based on their weaknesses they have to brain out. I would be immediately compelled. But going back to the point I began with, stuff like this could simply replace the fake death trope they like so much because if it weren't for the solid character arcs we get in return for soome of the bigger fake deaths, growth and response from the characters, I would long have stopped liking this story. You don't have to use death to build tension and tell meaningful stories. In fact, I would claim one of the strongest aspects of Shadowbringers and Endwalker is creating a believable danger worse than death, even if they still fall back to fake death. In the words of Curtis, Lyse's father, "Death is easy. Living is harder." In my eyes all they really need to do is drop the fake death stuff. Just be really sure if you want to kill a character and stick to that and if you aren't, create struggles relevant to them they have to work around. You don't even necessarily have to make arcs out of those struggles, either. I hope now that they essentially have a blank canvas to work with, the cheap stuff goes away, this why I'm personally excited for Dawntrail and this new possible saga - FF14 is now a firmly established MMO, which is something special to begin with, but it also resolved most of the legacy it was bound to, this is essentially the first fully original story, though it still has the same cast and world. I think if not in Dawntrail then in the bigger picture they absolutely can do something better than this and that excites me so much as someone to whom this story is among favourites.

[@StarAether]

I have nothing to add. Thank you for such a wonderful, well thought out comment!

[@saitouhajime3]

Honestly, Legion from WoW learned from The Bloody Banquet. But WoW used up so many characters that I don't really feel that interested in their new ones. Especially as of late. But this is also Final Fantasy. I'm not excusing their story choice, but the franchise itself kind of tells me that certain main story NPC's will live. That also comes from a few decades of story knowledge and experience with Japanese storytelling.

[@randallmusgrave5138]

I was disappointed Rahban didn't turn into a vengeance murder hobo.

[@Foogi9000]

I wish that they either kept her as dead or comatose because it feels like her death and subsequent absence should have been a bigger character moment for Raubahn. It could have gone into themes of parental grief, their very obvious father and daughter relationship, the loss of what is akin to his adopted child, how that pain affects him and those around him. It could also be paralleled by Aymeric and the relationship with his father.

[@tallguy112]

They need to work on developing a phasing technology like wow has. So players can have the world progress without needing to worry about so much about the world state.

[@Crystan]

While I loved the ending to ARR, my main issue with it was their failure for there to be any consequences for the clearly treasonous actions taken in Ul'dah. You get to the end of the Dragonsong war, victorious, and then it's not even so much as a slap on the wrist for Lolorito who LITERALLY orchestrated the whole thing and could've brought the Sultana back long ago. Instead he tried to have Raubahn executed and gave Ilberd enough leash (and capital) to start a war. We even faced the handmaiden who drugged Nanano and let her walk without so much as a prison sentence. When we finally face off against Ilberd it felt like a hollow victory, the man even robbing us of a killing blow and a scion at the same time. Then we have to make nice with Lolorito's company because of plot, all while I'm still imagining the myriad ways I can dice him up while he still breathes. Lolorito never does anything remotely deserving of forgiveness even by the conclusion of Endwalker. The whole thing just felt very hollow and unsatisfying. It's one of the reasons I didn't enjoy Stormblood as much - the whole expansion was doubling down on ignoring the bad things people did and letting them off without consequence. Yes, I'm looking at you Fordola. Don't think that your brief support in the Endwalker role quests makes you suddenly likeable.

[@StarAether]

In defense of Ilberd I think it was supposed to feel hollow. iirc Raubahn comments at one point near the end of SB that in the end Ilberd got everything he wanted and it wasn’t in anger, he was just like “damn we got played” I kinda like that it was a gray issue, we liberated Ala Mhigo and Doma, which was good, but the cost was that we didn’t get to see justice for ourselves and our friends, which I found rather poetic. ymmv tho!

[@elaine_of_shalott6587]

I will quibble just a bit. Lolorito did get a slap on the wrist, but only that. In Stormblood Nanamo commented that her plans for investment in Ala Mhigo to aid the refugees who would be returning was funded from the fine he paid.

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@StarAetherYeah, I think Ilberd is probably the best thing to result from that, it is interesting to see a villain who genuinely outsmarted us and accomplished everything he set out to do, its probably my favourite moment in all of Stormblood.

[@truesoprano2152]

The Bloody Banquet was the moment I fell in love with XIV's story. I'm upset with how it ended, but the initial shock of it was like nothing I had experienced in the game up to that point. But even though the Ul'Dah plotline in HW ended up being disappointing, the Ishgard plotline more than made up for it, and to this day remains one of my favorite FF stories of all time and my absolute favorite XIV expansion.

[@dukkdukkering]

Thanks to how dramatically they rolled back thr Scion deaths throuoit heavensward, i honestly refused to believe the scion we lost at the end of Heavensward's patch content was truly dead until Endwalker when his soul makes an appearance in the Aetherial Sea.

[@meamouse]

I love your analysis of the ARR's finale! "The consequence of unfettered idealism and an assumption that working towards the good of all is enough" is beautifully put... but I just came here from your Dawntrail video, so I'm going to choose to laugh now instead of cry.

[@iantaakalla8180]

To be fair, that was the world of the Ascians. This is the world beyond the Ascians, which apparently works so idealistically.

[@EvelynV123]

Something to consider with apparent character deaths in media, is that a story feeling predictable (and how to subvert that) cuts both ways. If people know no one dies, you can subvert that by having someone gone for good. But by that same logic, when a story consistently has character deaths stick then saving them in some complex way is also a subversion. FFXIV doesn't fall neatly into either of those camps, which is a good thing imo. Like you said, feeling too predictable is something the writing team specifically wanted to avoid. But sometimes someone NOT dying *is* the subversion in a story, which is very interesting when done well.

[@bickieeeeee]

shadowbringers spoilers i did not believe for a second when they tried to make us think that y'shtola or thancred died in shadowbringers, because i believe that the current scions are too iconic to keep (also they were both in the dawntrail trailer)

[@StarAether]

I honestly thought they were gonna follow through with Thancred and was disappointed that they didn’t! Although later I thought it did subvert the trope of getting rid of a character after their arc was fulfilled so that was at least a plus. I just want them to stop faking out if they’re not gonna commit to it cause it just feels really cheap in hindsight :/ this isn’t just a xiv problem tho. It’s kinda rampant in entertainment nowadays

[@uttrik]

​@@StarAether Thancred's sacrifice to make Ultima Thule hospitable was heart-wrenching. Except he's fine by the end of the zone. I really like Thancred as a character. His growth and relationship with Ryne was fantastic. But he should be dead. Thancred at this point has "sacrificed" himself three times, and there has been no consequences. At this point, I don't see any of Scions dying, or, hell, even any of the other popular characters.

[@jimbobborg22]

I started FF 14 a few weeks ago, I've been going through the MSQ from the start. I tried jumping in at Dawntrail, but I didn't know the controls and class I was playing well enough to get too far so I doubled back with a new character and started the game from the beginning. The story line so far is fine, I finished AAR and most of Heavensward so far. I'm glad I'm not so jaded with MMO stories that I can't enjoy this one.

[@lolxdlolmfaololxdd8879]

i never thought it was weird how despite being banished in story i could still do things in those areas with the suspension of disbelief of me playing a MMO, i saw the story as its own thing sort of independent from gameplay content

[@cparty7790]

The banquet itself floored me. Like I was kinda expecting some double crossing to happen, but not to that caliber. As for the aftermath. I kinda wish they actually killed Nanamo. Then, we jailbreak Raubhan like usual, only he goes to Little Ala Mhigo or some place and starts scraping together a resistance. Dude is the Flame general and the Bull, people would absolutely be willing to follow him. And he starts a sorta Ul Dahn civil war to depose the monetarists and avenge Nanamo. At some point, we could join in for a big push through the streets of Ul'dah, afterward, Raubhan would assume the leadership role in Ul'dah, monetarists would be defeated and he would desolve the sultanate in accordance with Nanamos wishes and usher in the republic she wanted. Idk I feel like that would be a bit more compelling and at least keep some of the consequences of the bloody banquet.

[@kevinwilliams200]

10:10 i might be misremembering the order of events but didn’t Minfilia “die” do to the ending of ARR?

[@kellytamia9152]

Which is why in my comic for my wol, I actually keep nanamo dead for the full consequences

[@MrKrump0]

hell yea subbed, I rlly enjoy these kinds of vids! I'd love to hear ur thoughts on plot happenings in further expansions as well ~

[@FlipperTheBaus]

The bloody banquet was definitely a nice change from earlier ARR storylines (thank heck for the later streamlining of those quests). While I personally wish SE would take more risks in their stories, similar to that of earlier FF games where major plot points were the loss of a beloved character, I can understand the struggle the devs may have axing a notable NPC. The storyline with Haurchefant in Heavensward is where I tend to disagree with most in that I never really felt the connection with the character throughout the expansion. It all felt very bland and I ultimately was unaffected by the ending of his story. Where XIVs story shines most in my view is towards the end of Stormblood, and into Shadowbringers, and Endwalker. The side characters feel much more alive and connected with the story, and the writing has gotten a lot stronger with time, leading to more impactful arcs and (albeit small) character development. I'm quite interested to see what SE may do with some of the core Realm Reborn NPCs as we get into Dawntrail, I feel there is a great opportunity to introduce real losses without potentially ruining a storyline or side arc later on.

[@p2jnyoom]

My experience of the Bloody Banquet was, well, surprise. It did exactly as you said: hit me out of the notion that the protagonists will just win. I didn’t pick up on the hypocrisies with the quests prior, so it did kinda just gut punch me, but I appreciate it for doing so. My only big gripe with the ramifications is, largely, Y'shtola. It's not that I don’t like her, I appreaciate the things she does for the story, but it's more that she gets multiple second chances in moments where she does something that's dangerous and/or stupid where it feels like, if anyone has plot armor, it's Y'shtola. As for the others, the reveal/storytelling decision that Lolorito was in control the entire time is honestly very smart, even if I didn't like him at the time. It was a classic example of the "bigger fish", but also something where Lolorito had more experience in the game than Adeledji and undercut their efforts at their own game. And, even if Lolorito had control of the situation, it was more damage control for things Adeledji was doing and not preventing those things from happening: Nanamo was still poisoned, but only non-lethally and left comatose for some time; Rauban still lost an arm; the Scions did have to scatter and flee the Braves. They were on our side, but couldn't signal support before the trap was sprung, so they supported by making the trap as ineffective as possible without visible betrayal to the Monetarists.

[@StarAether]

Yeah I really think they were clever about how they reversed everything and Lolorito was a great character in concept, it was just a bit rushed due to being smack in the middle of the Ishgard expansion

[@alejandrovazquez8873]

One thing I really didn't like about the nanamo quest was just how easily it was resolved I was hoping for like storm the castle type deal with a small band of misfits or something like a raid or dungeon at the least before it was revealed what happened

[@tarnius-b]

I'm not sure I reeeeeeally agree with this analysis. To say that the Bloody Banquet was walked back is to make a lot of assumptions about things that you never got to confirm, for sure, for yourself. You don't *know* for sure that Nanamo dies, you get apprehended before you check what state she's in. You don't *know* that the scions are dead, all of them pull risky maneuvers that could have killed them, but which they also might have gotten away from. I don't think the Bloody Banquet really needed to have killed off any of the main characters to have done its job at changing the tone of the story. That being said, I've also heard other people, JoCat, mostly, say that they feel as if the results of the Bloody Banquet were a retcon. It surprised me the first time I heard it, but I suppose it must be a sentiment that's floating around out there. But. I dunno. If I had to guess I would say that people who feel as if the Bloody Banquet was re-written are probably engaging with the game in a different way than I am. If you were enjoying the story as an outside force, observing it while detatched from your character and their motivations and attachments, then you'd probably have the expectation that at least one person died in this whole fiasco. But if, like me, you were trying to be inside of your character's head for the duration of the game (and you like the Scions) then finding out that they all survived doesn't feel like a cop-out. Cuz that's what your character, and by extension, you, were hoping for and working to help make happen in the first place. No one visits their friends in the hospital after a skydiving incident and says. "You know it would have made more sense if you died there, y'know."

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

You don't know what I'd say to a friend in the hospital after a skydiving incident, thank you very much! :P

[@tarnius-b]

@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1 Hah! True enough, true enough!

[@masterplusmargarita]

The Parting Glass feels like, in an alternate universe, it's the point where FFXIV really "starts". I mean, I still think of it as the turning point from the mediocrity of ARR into the fantastic storytelling of Heavensward and beyond, but if they'd comitted to what The Parting Glass implied we could've had a very different FFXIV. People like to throw around this "FFXIV is not an MMORPG, it's an RPGMMO" thing, and while I agree to some extent - it's certainly more of an RPG than any other MMO I've ever played - it always rubs me the wrong way because the game DOES put its MMO aspects ahead of its RPG aspects in a lot of different ways, the most obvious being stuff like not locking you of Ul'dah after The Parting Glass. I often wonder what would've happened had CBU3 stuck to their guns with this one. As soon as you're done with The Parting Glass, you can't go to Ul'dah, maybe you're barred from doing high-profile sidequests in Gridania and/or Limsa because they don't want to look like they're allied with the Scions, and you have to go through a chunk of Heavensward to re-unlock them back. Nanamo would've stayed dead, with sidequests involving her either being blocked off or taking place in a time bubble (I already happened to do the Culinarian questline where both her and Lolorito show up while she was meant to be dead), and we could've lost a main Scion or two. That's a very different game to the FFXIV we have, it's weirder, harsher, and probably quite a lot darker in tone, with that Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire influence much more pronounced. I really do wonder what that looks like - maybe a little like FFXVI - and whether that game every got as popular as our FFXIV did. As is, ARR feels like a mediocre prologue to a great story that's mostly tonally coherent, but in that alternate world I think ARR feels completely out of line with the rest of the story. SPOILERS! I do think in that world I believe Papalymo's actually dead for real before Stormblood's credits roll.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Honestly, even keeping only Raubahn would have changed stuff immensely. Raubahn, probably being pissed off that Nanamo is dead but also being dissuaded from immediate revenge, would likely take more pains to make Ul’Dah a proper republic where more people have a chance at being heard, being inspired by how even the Crystal Braves were subverted by the Monetarists, and would subject heavier limits upon commerce to make it less influential.

[@dalsta7724]

@@iantaakalla8180 If Nanamo was actually dead, Raubahn would have been beheaded at the end of ARR. It's nice to believe otherwise, but Ul'Dah would have become a Moneterist State run by members of the Syndicate, in no shape whatsoever to do anything in Heavensward nor Stormblood. The Brass Blades are the exemplary force for truth, justice and Bribes All Round For Everyone! The Flames would have been disbanded. There would be no Republic, as those in power simply wouldn't allow it. As for the rest ... if your Warrior of Light was barred from Ul'Dah, how would your jobs based on classes in that city level up? The game and story have different requirements. One of them has to give.

[@StarAether]

That’s a good point and in that regard I’m kinda glad they didn’t go the “dark route.” I really feel like XVI is was they wanted to do with the Banquet but couldn’t because the tone of XIV just didn’t match that GoT feel.

[@overnightsiren]

IMHO the entire build up and initial payoff was great, but what damaged the story most was the decision to keep Nanamo alive. It came out of nowhere and it removed all stakes. It made it very apparent that a fan favorite would never be killed in such a way. The ONLY time we will see a major fan favorite die will be through a heroic sacrifice.

[@Dragon_Lair]

I personally love the Bloody Banquet AND the aftermath. Yes, a lot of it was undone, and yes it was largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, particularly the player experience where we can just go back whenever. With that being said, narratively it was crucial for multiple stories. Y'shtola, while blind and still largely (currently) unhindered also is constantly using aether to see and granny warned her that that would harm her in the long run, something we see in the conjurer story with Sylphie nearly killing herself by expending her own aether. Thancred also went from playboy to being depressed and he never really recovers. Most importantly, it also showcases that the world DOESN'T need the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems for them, something Alphinaud hadn't yet figured out even by the midpoint of Heavensward. Uldah solves its problems, we are brought in to help but for the most part they take care of things themselves. Nanamo's death is reversed but her plans are irrevocably halted by Lololito. Her plans to make Uldah a Republic is ended and she has to maintain the Sultanate, something that would not have happened had the Bloody Banquet never happened because she would have abdicated the throne in an official announcement right then and there. The consequences weren't halted, they were redirected and the story shows it off going forward. Granted, I just beat Stormblood and am preparing to go into Shadowbringers, which I'm super excited for so no spoilers beyond Stormblood in replies, please. ^_^

[@StarAether]

All very good points! I certainly don't hate the Bloody Banquet, and it did bring about a lot of good character changes like you mentioned, but it just didn't have as much OOMPH to it as I was hoping for. Also, Welcome to Shadowbringers :3

[@Dragon_Lair]

@@StarAether It's hard to maintain that level of "oomph" in an MMO, as you stated in the video. The very nature of the beast kind of makes it not work out.

[@Demonskunk]

I was dense enough not to see that ending coming. it hit me like a truck and I loved it.

[@Demonskunk]

The bloody banquet didn't feel like a betrayal of trust to me. narratively it felt like a good way to kick the WoL out of the main area and force them to go to Ishgard and embroil themselves in ishgardian politics because they didn't have anywhere else to go. The reveal of Nanamo's not actual death felt narratively interesting and was left long enough to give a good sense of 'shit, is she actually dead?' and everything surrounding it feels narratively interesting and good to me. The thing that sort of betrayed my trust is actually what happens to a character in Shadowbringers. I won't say much else for want of spoilers, but if you know you know. That was the moment that FF14's teeth fell out for me.

[@Demonskunk]

Actually, the fact that Raubahn lost an arm and has to deal with the consequences of that was a really interesting narrative snag, I was expecting him to get an allagan arm or something so he could go back to his place in the story. But they resisted that urge. Also, most people don't actually know what the warrior of light looks like, I feel. You're a folk hero people talk about but have rarely met. If you go back to the rising stones while you're being hunted and talk to some of the crystal braves, they talk hot shit about you until they realize who you are, then they back down because they know who you are and that they don't have a chance against you. I don't like ul'dah enough to have gone there at all while the weird stuff was going on, or talk to any of the inconsequential npcs, so I'm not sure if THAT has any bearing. But I think most players are fine with suspending their disbelief in service of being able to play the game. How awful would it be if you couldn't go support your sprout friend in ul'dah because of where you are in the narrative, y'know? Or how many times have you taught the old man at the end of Heavensward that lesson. #JustMMOThings I guess.

[@Voltage256]

One of the things that bug me, is that they never let a character stay dead 90% of the time. And to me that effects the story in a negative way. It takes away from their sacrifice, and just makes the entire story less impactful. Sure killing off beloved characters will hurt, and sure you'll probably lose some of your playerbase, but most don't stay gone just bc 1 character died, and to me it makes it feel like there is no real risk to the story at all, bc you know everyone is gonna live anyway.

[@cj_skywalker]

I sort of got spoiled to the Bloody Banquet because before I first experienced it, I watched a gamer do a speed run of the entire Heavensward plotline and he spoiled the entire Heavensward story for me, but that's not his fault as he had to go through certain trials that were definite story spoilers. Even so, seeing Nanamo get poisoned and my character being dragged to the executioner's block under charges of regicide and seeing Raubhan go ape**** and outright murder Teledeji was still impactful. Seeing Alphinaud hate himself for creating the Crystal Braves, not realizing that we had been in the wrong first for recruiting Ilberd, not realizing how evil he was(though his evil was a noble cause to restore Ala Mhigo, and had it not been for his betrayal that caused the Braves to be disbanded, Nidhogg would still be alive and keeping up the Dragonsong War forever and we would have never had Heavensward or Stormblood). I'm sure you have heard about Aeris Gainsborough and how her death by the Masamune caused a sh**storm which resulted in false "Mew Under The Truck" rumors about how to revive her and add her back to your party. I think the reason these rumors existed and people denied Aeris's death was because we in the States never got to play Final Fantasy V, and in that game, we also lose a party member in Galuf, when he dies permanently and the others try futilely to save him with healing magic. Krile becomes an orphaned grandchild but Galuf's spirit grants her his abilities, showing that, yes, he IS REALLY DEAD AND GONE. (Well, not gone in the story sense as he joins the Braves to help destroy Exdeath and seal the Void for good.) While it might have been an interesting story for FFXIV if, instead of bringing back Namano, Ul'dah had undergone a period of chaos and you would be unable to go there or teleport there until the story reached a certain point. Namano was permanently dead and Raubhan is sentenced to death, the Monetarists now ruled Ul'dah and put a bounty on your character... but halfway through your exile, Lolorito and that woman he was with have you meet up in Limsa and reveal that while Lolorito now is the ruler of Ul'dah under the Syndicate, he has manipulated things to dissolve all charges of patricide on you so you are now free to come back. Likewise, Y'shtola is now permanently dead and maybe Y'mitria, her sister, could join the Scions. Y'shtola's spell teleported Thancred to Dravania and she sacrificed her aether to use the spell. (Matoya said that using Flow was very dangerous.) I have no doubt Yda and Paplymo did not die when they cast the explosion spell to bring the palace down, those two are as strong as dragon's teeth. XD My story ideas would have made for a much more interesting story, but I not Yoshida. I know he worries about his fanbase, and had he done these ideas, FFXIV may have not been as popular as it is today. If anything, while the Bloody Banquet and the aftermath now is a flesh wound, my story ideas would have made it a more fatal gash and we never have reached Dawntrail or even Stormblood as the player base might have dwindled to a trickle, too little to maintain the servers and keep FFXIV. Yoshida is like Godbert - he knows that making the Endwalker relic grind just be for the capped tomestones is boring, non-engaging, and the easiest relics to get. However, he knows that only 10% of the player base is going to respect a grind similar to the relics of old, requiring you to delve into old content and farm money and random grunk to complete each step. The remaining 90% of the players are just there to complete the MSQ, then AFK in Ul'dah doing the Manderville dance while waiting for queues for capped tomestone roulettes and Wondrous Tails. Changing the story to be a sad ending would not only tax the dev team and programs, but also axe those 90% who are just there for the story, as they would gladly go to Wizard101 and spend all their salary checks on pay-to-win just to hear every dialogue voice-acted. Sorry, I tend to rant a bit. :)

[@StarAether]

Thank you for ranting! I enjoyed reading it :3 Yeah like I mentioned, with a live game you can't reasonably expect to sacrifice player enjoyment for the story because while people like you and I will eat it up, it would also alienate a lot of people that play more casually and want somewhere to relax and chill. And I think XIV is that, and it's a deliberate choice by the developers. So I'm totally happy with the XIV we have now. But I also enjoy a bit of "what-if" now and then too!

[@1000Tomatoes]

I was disappointed that Uldah seened mostly unchanged when you went back, but I ultimately don't have a problem with different zones being in different time bubbles depending on their expansion. It's an acceptable level of disbelief to suspend for me in order for the world to be allowed to move forward.

[@jedimasterpickle3]

NGL the first thing I did after escaping Ul'dah was teleport right back in to see what would happen. Had it set as my home point and uh....yeah. So it was a bit disappointing, but not entirely surprising. This being an MMO also did effect one moment during Endwalker's story. Where just the mechanics of how quests are given and completed was at odds with the narrative on-screen.

[@FlameWish]

Interesting viewpoints. It has made me curious as to what do you make of: - Moenbryda's short-lived time in the spotlight? - Yda and Lyse? - the handling of Papalymo's character? - Minfilia at ARR/HW and at SHB? I do enjoy the story, but these, along with the post-banquet undoing of ARR, always make me question how people applaud the story as something so very grand.Given Shtola's scene at Rak'tika, I'd say most definite departures weren't as relevant as Haucherfant's, and some characters are so plot-armored that putting them in these dangerous spots should be actively avoided, seeing as they'll avoid death and major harm by any and all means, due to their fan-favouritism. With the story as is, I wouldn't mind bringing back some departed characters to properly flesh them out, even.

[@absollum]

Spoilers up to Endwalker Out of all the "consequences" the Bloody Banquet gave characters, Thancred is the only one who still has them for the most part. He has to team up with other people to do missions he used to do solo. I wouldn't have believed you if you told me Thancred and Uriange would end up paired together back in ARR. When he goes on missions far away, he's gone for "longer" since he can't teleport. It's mostly used as a way for him to be gone for a patch, but it's still better than how they Y'shtola. Minfillia's disappearance sets up plot points that got paid off in both ShB and EW, and unlike the other's sacrifice, she actually dies in the end. Y'shtola might as well get her vision back since her blindness has done next to nothing for the narrative. If anything, it allows her to see things the other Scions can't, which is more a reward than anything else. Matoya's line about it killing her is a mistranslation, which annoys me to no end since people bring it up constantly. Nanamo is the one I feel the most mixed about. On one hand, I hate they backtracked on her death, but I really like what they did with her and Raubahn afterwards. Ultimately, they should have stucked to their guns, but at least they got some of the besr character development. The way they handle the fake out deaths are really bad. Y'shtola "dies" every expansion at this point, so I don't even blink when she's in danger. That's something they really need to fix since threatening her existence is an empty threat. Thancred is the only one with "similar" fake outs, but I don't think the one in ShB was supposed to be a fake out in particular. That might be coming from someone who's seen similar scenes play out in multiple anime, game, and shows with similar tones, so it didn't even occur to me that others would think otherwise until I got online and saw other people's reactions. Even before Y'shtola spells it out, the Scions sacrifice in EW was obviously not going to stick. As soon as Thancred disappeared, I figured we'd pull a Sailor Moon and bring our friends back. I just thought it'd happen after we beat Metion.

[@StarAether]

From a storytelling perspective Thancred is hands down my favorite for all the growth he gets. You’re absolutely right

[@LinkingYellow]

I went through this with a friend. We both decided not to leave courthas until things started resolving. I think that helped, but seeing everything else walked back was really disappointing. I love heavensward, but that was a stain on that expansion for a long time for me. Looking back on it now (as of ShB5.4), it payed off so much in other ways that i don't see it as a problem anymore.

[@elz5267]

I appreciated your analysis. As someone who played the story as the patches came out I was rocked by the finale of ARR for months and though I remember rolling my eyes here and there as all of the losses were reversed I was also aware it's an MMO and cut the story some slack. With taking 10 years to get all the story some of the things that would make be cringe if I was ready a novel have not had the same impact. Over all the spicy bits are amazing when they happen and like you said they have never done anything to destroy the story so they have my approval!

[@mattjackson382]

I really hoped the writers committed to Nanamo's death, but I don't know how the writers would have solved the issues that arose from that without pulling resources from the Heavensward storyline

[@Shiirow]

people complain about character deaths essentially becoming a non issue but there are characters that are dead and stay dead. having characters dying willy nilly can be just as destructive as a character never dying. in fact, I think nanamo "dying" and coming back, yet moenbryda dies then stays dead. some would argue that nanamo had people more invested but I disagree, she really didnt show up much in the story and had close to the same amount of screen time as moenbryda as a whole. they both had a lasting impression to most players. Having one seemingly die and come back while the other staying dead, kept deaths from feeling straight out of left field or too commonplace, the player sees death as something that can and will happen but you can never tell if its going to be permanent, leaving that little glimmer of hope in the back of the mind, until the harsh reality being, yes they are in fact dead. its that whole keep them guessing with side characters fates. Im glad they didnt take R R Martins approach of making death meaningless with how flippantly characters just died all the time. this is supposed to be fantasy and something like a character escaping a death you thought was permanent, does that that.

[@ExiaLupus]

I was bothered not just by them walking back the consequences of the banquet but how, and how soon, they did it. Leaving Ishgard and putting Heavensward on hold to go back and do that stuff in the middle of the 3.0 MSQ felt jarring and premature to me, and I remember thinking they could've at least saved it for 3.1 or something. That said, I was catching up just after EW came out, so maybe the pacing would've been better for those playing at the time of release. It might've been too long to wait if they'd done that.

[@Scerttle]

"They're clearly in the wrong, we're clearly in the right" Meanwhile me in Praetorium during Lahabrea's speech: "Oh no, are we the bad guys?"

[@chrispysaid]

I was definitely not sure the Juliet maneuver with Nanamo was the right move. When she drank the poison, which everyone knew was poison, it was such a key power play to stop her before being able to dissolve the sultanate, and it would have been a really interesting move to have someone completely different take up the crown and wrestle with the legacy she left behind at the same time as a corrupt syndicate of wealthy citizens secretly pulling the strings and their own power as Sultan/Sultana, someone who wanted earnestly to make Ul'dah better but was generally powerless to do so. The WoL wouldn't even have needed to play a very large part in that development, like it's not the WoL's job to fix Ul'dah, but to the extent that it would impede the three city-states from entering into a cooperative agreement, having that kind of turmoil happening, WHILE asking Ishgard to join in the fun, that could have been a thing by itself. What I mean to say is I kinda wish Nanamo was dead.

[@QuietlyNerding]

I agree ngl. It would have been a significantly more interesting story if they had stuck to their guns and Nanamo had dead. Not because I dislike her, she's an interesting enough character. I just think her death would have played a much bigger role, impact if she'd passed. That being said, i haven't played all the way to current patches. So maybe I don't KNOW what other impacts Nanamo has.

[@keiyangoshin3650]

Some time ago I decided to play through ARR with an Alt and then went on to play Heavensward. At one point I found a character that had been, absent for reasons. 👀 And it suddenly hit me. ‘How long did we have to wait to know if these characters actually died or not!?’ I don’t remember anymore, it’s been… over 8 years. 😅 But it feels like it was a Long time to be hanging from that particular cliffhanger. I guess I didn’t suffer much for it, as I honestly don’t remember. 😳 But this video made me wonder how other players felt about it. Thank you for your hard work. 👍

[@aaronsmith784]

Good video. I really liked the ending of the ARR patches overall, but I was pretty disappointed with how they handled the follow up. Spoiler talk below. I was really excited by the bloody banquet, because up until that point, I really wasn't feeling engaged by the story at all. When the bloody banquet happened, I felt like they were willing to take chances with the writing, but the fact that everyone ended up surviving and there were no real consequences kind of colored my perspective for the rest of the MSQ. A lot of what were meant to be big dramatic moments didn't land as much with me because I knew that if a character was really important, they were never actually in any danger. Don't get me wrong, I did really enjoy the MSQ all the way through, and even cried a few times, but if they had been a little more willing to follow through with the inspiration they took from Game of Thrones in terms of consequences, I think it could have been even better.

[@StarAether]

My thoughts exactly! Just commit gdi 😭 if you’re gonna take chances take real chances!!

[@aaronsmith784]

@@StarAether I do think "side" characters have been handled a bit better. It seems like the writers feel like they have a bit more freedom with characters that aren't as established. Some of the more minor arcs have devastated me even more than the MSQ, such as the Sorrow of Werlyt line, and a certain arc in post SB that I won't name for spoiler reasons. I had a high degree of anxiety all through ShB because of some amazing characters there who were new, so I actually worried about their fates. Looking forward to more videos! Would love to see this kind of analysis on some of the other great story arcs.

[@StarAether]

Werlyt was top tier. I think you’re right and they feel it’s “safer” to play high stakes games with characters that won’t get an angry mob showing up at Sqeenix HQ 😅 Also thank you so much!! I’m really having a lot of fun talking about the story and rediscovering a lot of details from older expacs that I forgot/missed!

[@DanielSantosAnalysis]

While I can see where you're coming from, and can even remember vividly spotting the same issues, I can't say it bothered me much. Simply put, most games have this dissonance, where what you can do gameplay-wise contradicts the narrative. It can be as simple as controlling a no-nonsense character and having them run in circles, destroying their characterization. I think these caveats are natural though, and unless it's especially egregious, are mostly forgivable. I think you make a stronger point when it comes to characters not dying, this is a bigger issue for sure, but doesn't have easy solutions. Some characters have become too significant narratively and killing them may not necessarily lead to a better story. Would Nanamo staying dead have lead to a better and more interesting story? It's hard to say. Anyways, interesting video, I appreciated hearing your perspective.

[@kay_faraday]

glossing over the fact that Minfilia is effectively a ghost after the banquet Dunno if that changes anything, I just think that warranted a mention.

[@StarAether]

Thanks for mentioning!

[@pavfeira]

On my first playthrough during HW early access, I felt very cheated by the lack of consequences. Nanamo is unharmed and retains her position, Lolorito faces no consequences and arguably gets stronger, Raubahn is reinstated and his injury is functionally downgraded to a cool scar, and this is all flaunted in front of our character by Lolorito and Dewlala. Years later, I replayed this in NG+ and found the section much more palatable. Of course Nanamo's moves could lead to mass destability. Of course Lolorito would look for a way to both preserve control AND seize power from Teledji AND pull one over the Royalists and the WoL. He comes away looking like a clever, dangerous bastard. While I still begrudged the Houdini escape, it at least felt like a resolution that was planned and well-considered by the writers. So why did my views partially change? On one hand, I'm sure that reading a story a second time changes your interpretation. Seeing the banquet itself the second time, while knowing the eventual consequences. The magic trick has already been spoiled, and that could hurt the enjoyment of future magic shows, but at least we get to enjoy the technical skill of the sleight of hand. But, at least for an ARR player, I think the time spent marinating cannot be understated. There was a 3-4 month gap between 2.55 and 3.0 (if only 6.55 and 7.0 would be that close together, but I digress). That's a long time to sit in stunned silence. That's a long time to watch the HW CGI trailer over and over, where Nanamo dies and Lolorito grins maniacally. That's a long time to dread how much the story will be changed in HW... and then be shocked when all consequences have been undone by lv54. Newer players without the 3mo forced pause are not immune to this; I've watched enough MSQ streamers to feel confident that this is not a complaint exclusive to 2.0 players. But I do think that there was some broken trust in making this feel so permanent and so certain, letting players absorb that for months at the longest or around 50 quests at the fastest, and then doing a magic trick. Lolorito undid everything to expedite the story and to show his relative power and our WoL's relative helplessness, which might be good character building for him, but not without repercussions in the storytelling.

[@StarAether]

Expertly stated. 100% agree

[@ahrims7]

I do agree with a lot this. Felt a lot of the same things- I think undoing Nanamo's death was such a "fuck go back" maneuver that really undercut that striking moment. It props up Stormblood too, which is *also* nuanced. It sucks, i wish they stuck to those guns. I wonder if it was actually the development issue like you say. You're very right though- this game has lost my trust with any other charas dying or sticking to choices. This trend has to die with Endwalker imo, Dawntrail NEEDS to stick to its chops.

[@bathersbestie8986]

Oh god, I'm sorry but your conclusion was way off the mark. EW was full of "safe" choices, lack of consequences, plot armor, and a story where you just have to believe to win. Nothing says that harder than the bunch of sacrifices that meant nothing at the end of EW.

[@seajay1395]

I joined FF14 at the end of Shadowbringers which means I didn't have to dwell on the end of ARR too much as the story kept going for me. Personally, I didn't like that going back to Ul'dah was no big deal. It was a disconnect of what was happening in story and what I could do in game, if that makes sense. They explained why and how Nanamo was 'revived' pretty well. I do wish she had remained dead as it felt a bit....cheap I guess is the word. That and the 'revival' of all the scions did plant a seed of doubt about consequences though. Shadowbringers/Endwalker spoilers below The possible deaths of Thancred and Y'Shtola in Shadowbringers was a watershed moment for me. After the return of Nanamo and the scions in Heavensward the tickle of doubt was there but, I could brush it off as a one off event. Shadowbringers showed me that CBU3 wasn't going to let the 'popular' characters die. The 'sacrifice' of the scions near the end of Endwalker was so predictably not going to be real that I almost laughed when Estinien disappeared. Hell Y'Shtola even says we can just bring them all back lol. Then they do a similar trick with the Warrior of Light sending the scions away to go fight the Endsinger solo and presumably die in the attempt from the scions point of view. There's also the fact that the team flat out refuses to let time pass in the game. The twins are still kids after 10 years real world time. All the city states are exactly the same as ARR etc. It makes the world feel stagnant and unchanging IMHO. I personally think that CBU3 either didn't learned their lessons or doesn't have the freedom to make the world have consequences. Which is a shame because I think that will ultimately be FF14's downfall. Not today or tomorrow but, eventually. I hope not but, it's a concern.

[@StarAether]

Not letting the twins grow is a huge one for me personally. But, begrudgingly, they are a business and that’s probably where that decision comes from. As for the scions in EW, I saw it mentioned that moment in UT was a nod to FFIV (idk I haven’t played it all the way through yet) and you were never really supposed to fear for their safety. If that’s the case, I’m sure it’s a nice Easter egg for fans of IV but imo it does a disservice to the XIV story for everyone that didn’t know about it

[@PeacefulPorcupine]

Compared to quests that indicated that my recruiting my entire living rogues gallery and attempting to recruit PTSD Butler to the Braves was *my idea*? The Banquet was... reasonably forgivable. I skip the cutscenes for post-ARR because they feel insulting. Minfilia trusting Alphinaud with that was annoying, but... it's Minfilia, I never got to know her well, and maybe there's a reason I didn't know about? I'm willing to give Alphinaud a bit of leeway and follow Minfilia's orders on this, but... nnngh, it kept forcing me to _make_ foolish decisions.

[@haloeightYT]

Did this channel used to have a lot more videos or am I losing my mind

[@StarAether]

Nope! I only started making videos in like November. Hoping to fill it with more vids this year :D

[@thegneech]

Compared to the pure annoyance of seeing Zenos and Asahi walking around again, the un-murdering of Nanamo was very welcome and deftly done. Plus, as you say, the for-realz death of Harchefaunt and its lasting trauma on the WoL (mostly hinted at by dialog choices and some of the sound clips in the Endwalker finale, but still there) are consequences done right. As you say, this storyline taking place in a MMO with a persistent world makes some bits of narrative dissonance inevitable. Why do the tribal quests keep having the same three people get kidnapped so you can rescue them over and over? It's an artifact of the medium.

[@jakelawson1]

I loved the Bloody Banquet; it was the first time I felt like the game was putting storytelling in front of...let's be honest, ARR was a tutorial. The fact that it led so beautifully into "exile" in Ishgard was impressive. The image of the defeated Alphinaud, trudging almost friendless through the snow, was a powerful one. The primary consequence of the patch storyline wasn't a change to the state of the world; it was the beginning of a change in Alphinaud. I probably would have been more disappointed by rolling back the consequences had Heavensward not been such an absolute banger of a story. I would have preferred to see greater consequences (although the fact that Minfilia was removed from the board was a big one); Y'Shtola's and Thancred's disabilities don't seem very disabling. All in all? I think the Bloody Banquet and the Crystal Braves storyline was the beginning of the writers figuring out what kind of a game FFXIV was. It was imperfect and messy, but it signaled a change and made a promise that was kept by Heavensward, Shadowbringers, and Endwalker.

[@MagiTycho]

I thought that even though you could go back to Ul'dah, when I started the story of travelling to Ishgard, I definitely got the feeling that nothing was the same anymore. I guess I was able to compartmentalize the MMO elements of being grateful I wasn't locked out of a city (and the side quests I might not have done yet), and the point of view of the characters that were on the run and exiled. I always hated when games would have you walk onto a certain tile, a sequence would start that would spiral and all of a sudden you'd be unable to go back to where you were to finish anything you might have started there before ACCIDENTLY progressing the story, and you'd end up loading your save file from before a possibly half hour cutscene just so you didn't miss any "missables"...I always felt that was bad design for adult gamers who have more limited play time. I appreciated the climactic events at that part of the story very much, and was honestly surprised at some of the developments. I may have predicted some overall plot elements, but there were events leading up to those main points that I never saw coming. Maybe it was simply because, as pointed out, the story leading up to those events was very very bland and mundane. I mean, you spent like 12 quests just laboring to get ready for a banquet in YOUR honor and even Y'shtola was like "Oh wow this is embarrassing filler quest-writing" and I do believe they've since removed at least half those quests.

[@IdleCommentator]

Personally, I think that such a perception is more of "you" issue - I never had such a perception of ARR storyline consequences. In part, maybe it's because I find the often brought up approach of the necessity of major character deaths for the story to have inherently lackluster. Also I would not really agree that the events of the Bloody Banquet were undone completely and did not having lasting consequences if we consider the alternative history of it not happening in the first place, the Crystal Braves plan proceeding without a hitch etc.

[@Deuzen_FIN]

Great video in which I agree in pretty much all points raised. Honestly, I've long been of the opinion that the "revival" of Nanamo is the biggest misstep in FFXIV's narrative to date, and while I understand why it happened and enjoy storybeats it made possible, it also retroactively cheapened one of the biggest gutwrenches of the game.

[@shawnscouten5184]

I don’t have a problem with being able to visit old zones, with the whole “time bubble” system where canonically if you do certain things they happened in the past, like fighting beast tribes or garleans now that we made peace with them or visiting the tempest and it still being dry. The system could let them do things up to and including destroying entire zones without rendering dozens of quests permanently inaccessible. Its a pretty good compromise for a mmo. What I do take issue with is like you said, a lack of consequences, I wouldn’t mind one or 2 fake deaths, but when every single non-villain death is a fake one, it renders the story feeling kinda meaningless. The only real-ish consequence we get is Minfilia getting kidnapped by the big crystal, and Yshtola getting terminal aethersight, which ended up being an english specific mistranslation, which is unfortunate as Yshtola’s sight slowly killing her is a pretty interesting plot point despite it being created by accident. Its a real shame because the banquet is a very good scene, I wish they could have capitalized on it better, instead of retconning almost every element of it.

[@4mb127]

I think it's kind of a balance. For one thing, you need tension and logical conclusion to very dangerous situations is that someone gets seriously hurt. On the other hand you can't kill too many characters or the feel of the story changes to a very dark and depressive. I think they ride the knifes edge quite well in balancing this dilemma. Sure, it's disappointing when there are fakeout deaths. I think part of the impact of UT zone story got deflated by player expectations of "they are not going to die anyways". I personally think there has been a little too much of plot armor for the beloved characters. But someone could literally bomb Square Enix HQ if they killed any of the scions.

[@mariannerichard1321]

Spoils!!!! I don't think the bloody banquet in itself makes or breaks the lack of consequences. With reduced members on the highest decision making table (with Nanamo, Raubahn and Adeleji out of the way), it's rather easy for Lolorito to grease the right hands and make sure everyone who knows, understand it's in their best interest to just keep acting like nothing happened. As for the foreign guests at the banquet, it's not like Nanamo died in front of them, you have to wait for the fog of coup to disperse before taking any political stance. The death of the Garlean emperor and the fall of the Black Wolf won't be enough to allow infighting between the Eorzea nations. But yeah, they could have done a better job to show all the dirty tricks going on behind the scene for Lolorito to keep the ship steady. Someone like Papashan could have made some reports. For La Noscea and the Black Shroud, sure, they would be trying a bit more to look like they are actively trying to distance themselves from us, or at least the head of states would, but unofficially, they should be about as chill as Coerthas with us. Sure, the head of states will avoid being seen having tea in our company in the meanwhile, but for the rest, we are "just too bloody useful" to quote a certain tech guy. They'll just delay, look the other way and wait for the dust to settle. I don't think any of their armed people would work too hard to find us or make the population aware we are to be reported if sighted (with wanted posters all over and the like). It's with Thanalan that the plot seems off, they could have added another layer of politics, with the immortal flames backing us in the shadows (allowing us to do stuff for the Grand Company), while the Brass Blades and the Sultansworn... The Brass Blades probably won't do much, as Lolorito is the one behind them ultimately and he doesn't want to rock the boat too much. So a arrest warrant on the scions individually, but not much publicity at large to catch them. So the random NPC in Ul'dah wouldn't know much about it, while the individual Brass Blade could have been told to report sighting us but not try to arrest us alone. The Sultansorwn have to be on our side somehow, because some players will do the Paladin quest while doing Heavensward (as I did and that was awkward xD). So having some meetings with Papashan and others with someone from the Flames, reporting what's going on and some odd stuff the Blades are doing, would make the ultimate coup de theatre less an asspull. As for dead characters, Y'shtola is a separate case, it's more a joke around cats having 9 lives, I don't mind if it's just one character. Minfillia never came back in the flesh, although she was possessing young girls the Ascian way in a different world for a century... not sure how that one count, more like tantalizing us that she would come back, only to kill her off definitely after giving us one last line. She wasn't dead on the spot, but she wasn't with us for 4 real life years either. Thancred manage to get through via Y'shtola's gamble, he comes out unable to use magic, probably wanted, his spy instincts took over and he has been discreet, I can live with that. And this whole ordeal serve to explain and illustrate the soul cycle, set up the stage for Shadowbringers, etc. It's heavy handed, but I can live with that. Papalymo and Ida on the other hand... They can do magic just fine, they aren't stuck in the livestream, what gives? Oh! They were undercover to infiltrate an alamihgan resistance group, like what? That was poor writing, the writers didn't want to do much more with them, killed off Papalymo the first chance they get and got rid of Ida, with a full retcon in hand, having her failing upward into politics. They should have killed them both at the banquet and have the pugilist's sister enter the stage to do the Stormblood part sans the weird character turn around and the baggage from the first two parts and patches. It's not like we did much with Ida in the 2.0 to 2.5 anyway. Or if you want to keep Papalymo for Shinryu, kill Ida at the banquet, then have Papalymo find Lyse among the rebels while undercover and give Lyse a better background for politics than the schizo Ida/Lyse we got in Stormblood. But the non-death that nag me the most is Gaius just casually coming back in the plot, when we ourselves barely make it back with Thancred out the inferno... ok, these high end magitek armors are good, but this good? As interesting as his side stories are, they could have made them about the same with people around him. They could even have had Nero to cement the plot lines together. But no, they had to retcon Gaius into a shounen jump villain turned allies, in very awkward twist. Sorry for the long rant...

[@StarAether]

Gaius is another petpeeve for sure, but Werlyt was so good I forgive it XD

[@rowboatcop4451]

Just wanted to say that im relatively new to FFXIV (stormblood lvling quests) and your videos are really good! Keep it up!

[@StarAether]

Thank you so much!! Enjoy SB, it really starts to get crazy towards the end :3

[@Eredom]

(Slight spoilers for up to and including Endwalker) Honestly, I hope we see REAL deaths in Dawntrail. A ton of new characters, that are not related in any other questlines, they can work with that and actually pull another Haurchefant/Iceheart. Considering, we had 2 major char deaths in Heavensward, and then no more actual good guy deaths (aside from one minor NPC in Stormblood). You have sooo many "fake" deaths in this game and that hurt a lot. In Stormblood alone I would say Gosetsu and Yshtola, in Shadowbringers Yshtola again, and in Endwalker BASICALLY EVERYONE. But no actual deaths, just fake, and that makes impacting moments not matter. "Its just going to be another fake death".

[@powerofk]

What I want to see in Dawntrail is us finding out (nearly too late) that we’re actually on the wrong side of the conflict that we’ve been lassoed into. And having to deal with that mess. Remember, this is a part of the world we know almost nothing about, other than what we’re told in 6.55. SPOILERS: I know something similar happens in the 6.0 story, though not quite the same. The question is, why do we keep falling for this stuff? Haven’t we figured out yet that the best place for us is on our island, cut off from the rest of the world?

[@ravirr513]

I love FF14 to bits, and this sequence was shocking in the best possible way after slogging through the post-ARR stuff, but I still get kind of irritated every time I think of Ul'Dah because it seems to be the one place in Eorzea that's never allowed to get better. You cannot spend any time there, at all, without hearing about some kind of atrocity the are or have committed. Exploiting refuges. Enslaving giants in their copper mines. Even the Hildibrand questline, the most comical and lighthearted content in the game, explores Ul'Dah unleashing a zombifying bioweapon against its neighbors at one point in the past. Then when Nanamo tries to make things better for literally anyone, the Syndicate stages a coup that threatens multiple foreign heads of state on the flimsiest pretenses imaginable, and her response to this is basically, "You're right, people who tried to kill me and probably also my predecessors! I AM foolish for trying to oppose you! I'll play along with you instead!" and completely gives up. When similar stuff happened in Ishgard and Ala Migho, the tyrants were kicked out on their asses and a better system was put in place. But Ul'dah seems to be the one place in Eorzae where even better things can never ever happen.

[@Ramotttholl]

This is my favorite cutscene till ShB. and its power got me through the rest of the game. as i took breaks 2's before this cutscene and no breaks till i was uptodate on ShB back then. my biggest issue with the fact its an MMO i didnt encounter till EW's patch content as part of it involves a similar issue a side quest in ShB tried to solve. but because of it being side content (and locked behind leveling 1 job of each class no less) it couldnt interact with the patch content story outside of a comment from the WoL that pretty much gets ignored again. which made me feel the patch MSQ content is worse then ARR/ARRP because the MMO fact broke the story for me. Before the MMO fact just made you be able to access area's that story wise should be oflimits. which is just fine by me.

[@KazikoWhite]

As much as I would have LOVED Ul'dah to be a chaotic mess where being spotted by guards would mean you'd be imprisoned.. I know that's not realistic in an MMORPG. What if there's a seasonal event or a class unlock in Ul'dah that you want but simply can't because you haven't progressed far enough into the story, then you're mostly wanting to get through the story for mechanical reasons (which, to be fair, a lot of people do). So as I've been going through the story, I've set limits on myself, for roleplay reasons. There's parts of the story where it just makes no sense to be able to teleport back and forth, so I don't. I'm in that area until I've finished what I'm there to do. Also also Ul Namo's fake death absolutely didn't make me think that all characters were safe after that. I was still shocked whenever the possibility arose. But it was things OUTSIDE of the story which made me question things like "..Well I know this character isn't in trouble because I've seen them in screenshots released this week" or "I don't think they'd bring back this voice actor for one cutscene, they must have a bigger part to play later" (that one, I admit, I was wrong with).

[@backyardshorts5505]

IMO Square ruined the build up towards the end of End walker. They could of kept each of the scions sacrifices and then use the post patches to return our friends back to normal. I also believe they could of added more lore regarding the lifetream and maybe text telling us their first hand experience of the lifestream.

[@edzerk]

My first thought was, Nano should have died. But then after side quests, and more story I acknowledge they managed to make it have sense that she is still around. Now about consequences, there has been, not all result in death, maybe our expectations are that ultimately mistakes end in death but that is also unrealistic, not all mistakes lead to a character dying. I am more mad about Y'Shtola just pulling deus machina to solve problems. Also wasn't she supposed to be dying? Or have a shorter lifespan?

[@KumoKumiko]

god, I'm so glad to see this brought up. I was so fucking shook by how easily the Ul'dah situation just sort of. slid back to normal, almost off screen. it really does cheapen the Bloody Banquet so so much in retrospect. I get so mad on Raubahn's behalf when I see him without his arm, like "damn bro. you lost that arm, and for what" thankfully, this never really tanked my immersion, I still worry for the characters, and I don't necessarily need the threat of death to do so, the characters can face consequences in other ways. and I actually HAVE lost most of the scions I cared about at the beginning, anyway; as I started my journey in Gridania, Yda, Papalymo and Minfillia were the first scions I met and came to know and love, and all of them are gone now (or no longer a main character at least, in Yda's case).

[@Alex_Mander]

I love the Bloody Banquet, since by that time, it was really proving to me how much teeth FF14's story has. I was first playing this during the Pandemic/Quarantine. And FF14 was exactly what I needed. It was a game which granted me companionship, as well as a story which threw me into frustrating political thrillers where the world was horrific and terrifying, but still had a glimmer of hope to encourage you to keep fighting on. During this time, I was disappointed with the world. Disappointed with humanity. And I felt so powerless and wasn't sure how to cope with it all. Despite the inspirations from Game of Thrones, I don't think FF14 is a story about who dies or who doesn't. While I agree consequences are important, I don't think the game's story beats are any less impactful when characters "die" then survive. And perhaps that's because for me, FF14 is immensely immersive, and I treat everything as in the moment, rather than as some outsider trying to "logically make sense" of an entire narrative structure and its tropes. Perhaps this is because to me, I immerse myself in this game as MY Final Fantasy. I am the Warrior of Light who wants to fight on, save innocent people, and help out my comrades. This is why it is always a big deal for me when innocent people die in this game, even if they are minor support characters. Cause I love Eorzea. I care about the people and the world in this game. And the Scions, I know they don't die, but I love them all. I love their characters. They're my main party members, and I want to experience the adventures with them for many years to come. Just like my friends who play with me in FF14. I think this is also why I was perfectly fine with the developments of Lolorito and Nanamo. For me it just made a far more interesting and compelling story in the MMO format. And being able to achieve something like this honestly made me trust the writers even more, rather than less. I admit, when I played Heavensward, I understood I could revisit Uldah. But I just chalked that up to MMO logic. Which I was perfectly willing to suspend disbelief for. But since this was my playthrough, I actually chose to strictly stick to Ishgard until it was okay for me to return to Uldah. I loved Eorzea and my story a lot, and I decided to personally immerse myself that way! As a result, I felt lonely in Ishgard. Betrayed by those I fought so hard to save. And wishing my friends the Scions were somehow okay. It hit me HARD. And I felt playing through Heavensward was very therapeutic for me in regards to coping and coming to terms with such betrayal and loss. And once the Dragonsong War ended, and I reunited with the Scions, I felt like I was rewarded for all my blood, sweat, and tears. Even though I understood the conflicts against Garlemald and the Ascians were still far from over. But I wasn't going to back down. I would keep marching on.

[@Gifted_ID10T]

You have something here. Well thought out, and your views share, mostly, what I thought too. It is good to see you not go into the story in great detail except to point out examples. In my opinion, the 16 minutes you spend on this topic is a good amount of time considering the fast-paced consumption world we live in now.

[@Gwanzan3325]

I will always be salty that we never get revenge on Lolorito. Working with that Matt Murdock-looking mf in Kugane while Lolorito continues in government had me grinding my teeth in Stormblood.

[@AnotherH8er]

This kind of highlights the issue with later seasons of GoT in that the consequences felt by major events in the early seasons sort of vanished later on. It removes a lot of tension and almost breaks the immersion of the world we’re meant to inhabit. But logistically that kind of commitment would have been a monumental undertaking for the developers especially coming from the relaunch of ARR. I appreciate your commentary ❤

[@Dragon_Lair]

I personally love the Bloody Banquet AND the aftermath. Yes, a lot of it was undone, and yes it was largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, particularly the player experience where we can just go back whenever. With that being said, narratively it was crucial for multiple stories. Y'shtola, while blind and still largely (currently) unhindered also is constantly using aether to see and granny warned her that that would harm her in the long run, something we see in the conjurer story with Sylphie nearly killing herself by expending her own aether. Thancred also went from playboy to being depressed and he never really recovers. Most importantly, it also showcases that the world DOESN'T need the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems for them, something Alphinaud hadn't yet figured out even by the midpoint of Heavensward. Uldah solves its problems, we are brought in to help but for the most part they take care of things themselves. Nanamo's death is reversed but her plans are irrevocably halted by Lololito. Her plans to make Uldah a Republic is ended and she has to maintain the Sultanate, something that would not have happened had the Bloody Banquet never happened because she would have abdicated the throne in an official announcement right then and there. The consequences weren't halted, they were redirected and the story shows it off going forward. Granted, I just beat Stormblood and am preparing to go into Shadowbringers, which I'm super excited for so no spoilers beyond Stormblood in replies, please. ^_^

[@BranBal]

Oh man, you're going to eat good

[@shawnscouten5184]

The harming her later thing about Yshtola is the result of a mistranslation, it only implies that in the english version. Thats why they still haven’t done anything about it all these expansions later. Its a shame though, it would have been a cool plot point.

[@emachine310]

Do you stream? I wouldn't mind joining you on your adventure through shadowbringers

[@MightyTachikoma]

@@shawnscouten5184 Wait is that really just a mistranslation? I've been waiting for the payoff from that comment for fuckin' YEARS

[@boanoah6362]

@@MightyTachikoma Less a mistranslation and more a misunderstanding, from what I can gather the granny says it's fueled by her internal aether so she better be careful. The implication taken in the translation was that it's dangerous in the long run as it's constantly draining aether to just see, however internal aether is... nothing? Like, the world they live in is so resplendent in aether that just breathing refuels anything her sight might have consumed, it's a non-issue. She'd have to throw herself into some cosmic void of nothingness and sit there staring at a wall as hard as possible with magic sight for like a week to even become a problem basically.

[@DacyAndEric]

I was really dissapointed and honestly, I think about it a lot, even all these years later. Not every death has to be perma of course, but something about the bloody banquet and how it was basically reset, has never sat fully well with me.