Why Do So Many People Hate A Realm Reborn? | A Story Analysis

[@Viniby97]

In defense of the Titan Questline, while it could of been done better, the company of heroes do have a point. Why do they have to believe a random person who claims to have slain ifrit is capable of killing titan, especially when they just fired a dude for lying about being in their group? They dont wanna be responsible for that kind of death, so they naturally test you first to make sure you can actually kill Titan. Now, due to power creep, the quests dont really teach you much anymore. But back in the day some mobs were tough enough to live long enough to teach you about certain mechanics Titan would do, like the infamous landslide.

[@XieRH1988]

Imagine how Endwalker's MSQ would have turned out if Venat 'tested' the Warrior of Light on their worthiness to ride on Argos by doing a chain of various sidequests back to back. That's what company of heroes felt like in ARR. It is a pain point that is so widespread you can even find it on google search in numerous results, alongside other ARR classics like castrum meridianum runs for newbies being ruined by cutscene skippers, etc. No one can deny the company of heroes would have wanted to test the warrior of light. But in order for a streamlined narrative that doesn't get dragged out into a slog, there should have been only one 'test', rather than each member of the company having their own chore for the warrior of light to do. Even Endwalker arguably had its own "company of heroes" moment. It happened right after you met the Loporrits and went through a sequence of chore-quests involving the clothing, and then the food, and then touring the habitat, all to drill in the point that the Loporrits had no fucking clue on how the civilizations of the world and their societies and cultures were like. CBU3 also worked on FF16 and you can see a bit of the same sort of pacing issue in its storyline as well, sometimes the pacing just slows to a crawl at certain points in the story. And last but not least, remember that in 5.3 the MSQ of ARR was trimmed down. How often do you see a game story get improved through the removal of content? Normally it's the opposite where you add new stuff to improve it.

[@StarAether]

This is a great point and I hope you don't mind me answering it. (I should have explained it better in the video). You're right that the Company does have a reason to justify their trials and it IS a good one, but there are two problems (why are there always two problems??) with the way it's implemented: 1) they only tell you afterwards in a kind of gotcha moment which should put it all in context but only makes it more frustrating that they weren't honest to begin with (though there are reasons why being honest might not have been good, especially after your experience with Trachtoum, so I can give a pass for this one) 2) the Company are the ones who defeated Titan previously and understand his strength more than anyone. Titan is said to be dangerous. The fate of Limsa is on the line. The Company does not act like it. They act like you're a new recruit who wants to go get in trouble, not a lone adventurer who has been thrust into the position of saving an entire city. Why didn't they offer any help? Why didn't they say "assemble the Heroes, pass these tests, and you can join US as we go take down this threat again"? In game they couldn't join, you so the writers had a make a reason why the Company wouldn't fight Titan themselves, and the unfortunate effect was that the threat of Titan was completely mitigated by their uncaring attitude and insistence on putting you to the test over saving Limsa. Your point about mobs is an interesting one and I wouldn't be surprised if it did play a part back then. I know you probably didn't want a long answer but I hope that clears up my position on it XD thanks for bringing it up!

[@Viniby97]

The issue with your example for Venat is that theres no point in having a test run for the WOL in that point of the story, cause he/she has already gone from Zero to Hero multitude of times, and Venat is aware of that fact. Since she auto believes you're a time traveler and the stories you tell her. The lopporites werent really doing it in a way the company of heroes were, they were just super over protective parent like people with a goal from venat/hydalen. They legit thought you were all children until the scions got tired of it half-way to near the end cause of how the ancients size difference was back then for them. @@XieRH1988

[@Viniby97]

Yeah, I agree with the problems you stated out, it just felt like you were being a bit unfair to that part of the story to nail home the point, is all. I only know about the mob thing from some people who have played during 2.0, when the mobs were apparently tougher cause the skills werent changed/buffed like they are now and such.@@StarAether

[@StarAether]

@@Viniby97 no, thank you for pointing it out! I was actually hoping someone would mention it because I realized after the fact that I didn't go into enough detail on it.

[@manafish8732]

the biggest issue is absolutely that the story will repeatedly set up a very clear and well defined goal and then make you do a bunch of busy work where nothing happens, while often *rubbing in your face* how pointless these smaller tasks are compared to your goal. no exaggeration, this happens at least several times in every single expansion, not just in ARR

[@manafish8732]

also - great video in general! i really liked your point about how the hype around the later parts of the story being bad for new players. i found that it made my ARR experience worse since i was already viewing it as a slog, and even made my experience in heavensward worse, since i was constantly worried that it wasn't going to be as good as everyone said and that my time spent slogging through ARR would be wasted

[@rafalos-zx6go]

this happens even in the other mainline ff games. ff16 was full of it too

[@raphaelkap]

huh? Heavensward and maybe Stormblood sure, but where the hell does that happen in Shadowbringers and Endwalker?

[@-cat-..]

@@raphaelkap EW 6.0 Spoilers I had to take a break from EWs MSQ at the loporrit part, right after Zodiark dies and the watcher tells us armageddon is coming, the end times are here, etc.etc. The watcher says I need to go meet engineers created by hydaelyn that have labored for literal millennia to create a way for humanity to flee their now dying planet and avoid complete annihilation... and instead I spend a few hours running daycare for staggeringly incompetent talking rabbits that have annoying voices

[@razblue2204]

@@raphaelkapThe section between Vauthry fleeing to Mt Gulg and getting to him. Like it’s important as it’s how the people of Eulmore unite and help, but the amount of quests is mind numbing when there’s the suspense of being the last light warden. Also the Tempest part with the Ondo. Oh the WoL is on borrowed time thanks to Ryne and is on the verge of succumbing to the light? Oh well time to help out these random dudes at the bottom of the sea with random stuff, no pressure at all to rescue Graha too. Shadowbringers is my favorite expac, but pacing sure is a big issue in this one particularly

[@Kenshin6321]

Speech in FFXIV (beastmen excluded) Ul'dah: Normal people. Gridania: Kind and gentle tree huggers. Limsa: I'onoe y dey mad'em talk lak dis.

[@prismason]

one thing i really liked about ARR over the expansions is the world design. walking around on foot and having a billion different quests to do made it feel more open to me, and less of a straight line to the quest marker. i liked npcs needed to continue quests being placed beyond an area you needed to navigate, and there was a chance you could wander into areas with higher level enemies that would beat the crap out of you, prompting you to either leave, fight, or sneak around them. witchdrop in coerthas is memorable for a similar reason, it being a giant pit people accidentally fall into and aggro enemies that proceed to kill them can be annoying but it can also be funny, and either way they'll create a memory of that place. i find parts of eureka and bozja are somewhat like this in the few hours i've played of those, but i hope the main zones of dawntrail and further expansions go back to how they designed areas in ARR again. little side note is i feel final fantasy 16's overworld suffers the same problem and can be fixed with the same solution, but it may not be a problem to others and just be me

[@jude4195]

I truly think ARR would have helped if the scions interacted with the plot more like imagine if yda and papalymo interacted with the whole resistance arc in Gridana and in hindsight helps hint at stormblood arc or y’shtola helping you with the company of bafoons and seeing her lost patience with those quest and her trying to help you speed run it and thancred feeling like he’s useless much more during the crystal with the refugees if joined is there that could help build characters and bond with the scions ALL of them instead of maybe who we started with that will help the characters are a bit

[@Shiirow]

The hatred of ARR usually stems from two factors, the older playerbase coloring the perspective of newer players, and a 'watched pot never boils' scenario. 1) You have older players telling new players its a slog based solely on their own initial perspective of the game back in 2.0 where it was actually rough to get through. You had to complete every side quest and objective to effectively level. The story was never really an issue, it was essentially a wow clone in that aspect of : move to new hub, complete all quests in new hub, finish MSQ, move to new hub. This isnt how it works anymore since you can now complete ARR solely by doing the MSQ, but old players who havent played the game since the updates still act like ARR is still in its 2.0 paradigm. If you are continually being told "its a slog", you start looking for any hiccup in the leveling for slog, and usually find it because if you expect a slog, you will rationalize any slow burning spots as the slog the old player was talking about. Then when you become an old hat, you tell new players "its a slog" and the cycle continues. Some people may break the cycle but the overall opinion will be cemented, regardless of what SE does to change it. 2) If you came into the game looking forward to some new piece of content you saw in a recent trailer, you will look at the long road as an obstacle to that content, constantly being that "are we there yet" kid the entire time, instead of enjoying the trip you will be constantly checking your watch as you complete quests and story beats. That is never a very enjoyable experience for anyone. Especially when coming from games like WoW, where the game is essentially done in like a couple days due to Blizzard putting the leveling process on fast forward to get people to end game. You come in with that mindset, and play XIV like WoW instead of playing XIV like XIV. So any slow points or world building the game may present you will, even a mildly annoying fetch quest section will feel like an excruciating long and painfully tedious that you "have to get past to get to the good stuff". Even though ARR is actually a pretty fun experience if you just take it for what it is rather what you want it to be or what you expect it to be. "Slow down, the game is to be savored." - Old Pandaren Proverb

[@chaptap8376]

29:02 Another fun fact is that this quest is actually where UWU is supposed to take place. A sort of what-if of the WoL deciding to take on all three Primals and Ultima Weapon right then and there. It's actually the only Ultimate to this day which actually is plausible within the story. For example, TEA wouldn't work with the story we got since the WoL never once encountered Brute Justice and Cruise Chaser at the same time, much less with Alexander Prime there too. Same with UCoB, etc. UWU is the only one which could have happened if the WoL made one different decision during that quest.

[@Ra.Xir24]

My friend, who had never played an MMO before, and I are playing through ARR; he's enjoying it, actually, and I'm liking it more than I used to, having someone to share it with. We just finished the Titan arc, and we just had a chuckle at its absurdity, more than anything.

[@StarAether]

honestly playing with someone is always going to make it such a better experience. it's too bad the game makes it impossible to do instanced/story content together (and too bad I forgot to mention it in the video!!) but getting a laugh out of the silly parts rather than getting frustrated is always a win

[@RBNinja]

I just noticed this is your first long form video. This is a really good essay on the problems with ARR. And its a phenomenal video for it to be your first one. I hope you continue to make more and ever walk in the light of the crystal!

[@richardrivera8571]

Not me playing a ARR and forgetting about thancred and seeing the ascian with his body and me saying "ok who was this guy?" I think i just ignored him like a random npc maybe was because papalymo and the girl was the of the scion with personality so i just forgett of the rest

[@j.z.1876]

One thing I often tell new players is that the bar is set at ARR and it only goes up from there. Another thing I say is that ARR is building the foundation for a 10 year long story arc, with a habit that a seemingly throwaway line or sidequest is often paid off 2-3 expansions later. It's all connected and (mostly) builds off of everything that came before.

[@pwnorbepwned]

Simple answer: it is really good, but all the future expansions are better, so it only seems bad in retrospect. My suggestions on the defend are to re-add the culled quest bits in the patch content where the Scions get waylaid by sylph imposters. It’s a heartwarming and memorable sequence of character interactions that shouldn’t have been cut. And a work the revamping magic on Binding Coil raids to make that questline more accessible. It doesn’t have to be mandatory, but it shouldn’t be as hidden, janky, and difficult to form a party for as it is now; imagine if it performed like Alexander and onward, and was on the Raid roulettes, with an NPC directing you to the quest like with Crystal Tower.

[@FF-tp7qs]

Back in Stormblood there used to be a wine related quest necessary to unlock the second part of the Return to Ivalice raid, it was later removed.

[@mcihay246]

Technically it's still in the game. The difference is that now, it isn't mandatory and it's just a yellow quest on the Prima Vista that would never go away unless you don't know what you've gotten yourself into, or you're a masochist.

[@mirananana]

as someone who started playing in endwalker after they added duty support and cut out quests, man i really felt that entire ""the players"" section... though not in the Exact scenario that u described. for me, i went into the game with that idea in my head of "oh arr is absolute ass, it sucks, but just claw ur way through it until u get to heavensward and thats when it gets good!" - and then i... didnt feel that way at all. i was having a fun time with a realm reborn. it was slow, sure, but i dont mind a slow start. i only felt that the story was Bad during the company of heroes questline [which, to this day, remains to be the only part of the msq where i started heavily skimming the dialogue], but everything else was entertaining. but i just *kept hearing* people talk about how awful and shit that part of the game was, it started to frustrate me. it felt like i wasnt experiencing the game "correctly" - i shouldnt enjoy arr, i should be suffering and only be rewarded with good story afterwards. this also was an issue in that sense that, while i was enjoying the arr patch quests storywise, i also did begin to get frustrated by how long it was taking to get to heavensward bc i was just so curious as to what people meant by "it suddenly gets good then". and then i got to hw and it was.... fine? like dont misunderstand, i think hw is a great story, but it didnt feel That big of a jump in story quality from the end of arr or the end of the patch quests. it was sort of a deflating moment for me, like, oh? thats it? thats the sudden good storytelling that everyone was talking about? (of course, once i played thru shb+ew i was like "oh okay this is the top-tier storytelling ppl are so insane about i understand completely now") anyway, apologies for the long rant, but i truly can not express just how much i wish players would Stop bringing new players into the game with the pretense that the start is horrible. as you said, if the new player doesnt like the story, all youve done is give them more reason to feel miserable. and it also leads to players having wayyyy too high expectations for other parts of the game that may not measure up to what they were expecting [not right away, at least].

[@StarAether]

dang I'm sorry to hear about your experience and all the crazy expectations, but I'm also glad you stuck with it all the way to the end :D as for people overhyping hw and giving people unrealistic expectations... ohoho I have a lot to say about that in the next video

[@razorxseraphim149]

For me, I started with HW having just released, and I think the reason why ARR felt like such a strain was because I was trying to get caught up with all my friends who were already at current content. It was a LOT to go through back in the day. I started running a brand new character through it recently though, when EW was released to finally experience the upgrades that were done to ARR and found it a lot smoother and more enjoyable. Especially since I didn't feel the same kind of pressure that I did several years ago to try and catch up to people. I don't tell people that ARR sucks, and it is sad that there are a lot of people who think that it is the worst content of the game. I just tell my friends who are just starting that the game has a slow build up as it introduces you to the world and warms up into the wider plotline that propels us up to and through the current content. Big thing that made it easier was those sweet sweet aethryte tickets to get you back to the Waking Sands. Instead of continuously having to port back to Horizon and slowly tromp your way back there for Minfillia to talk at you for 2 seconds and send you back out into the world. Those quests points always felt "this could have been an email/call on a linkpearl" moments.

[@MuseViews]

As someone who is like one of the few people in my friend group who doesn’t despise ARR, I agree completely. I don’t really mind the slow set up bc I enjoyed getting introduced to the world, exploring areas, experiencing characters, etc. I’m glad that I didn’t let the “bad reputation” affect how I experienced the game. I definitely understand the complaints, but I try not to that pass on to new players who are interested, especially now with the Free Trial being expanded with more content.

[@Gunthersby]

While playing ARR, I didn't know Thancred was a character, and didn't realize that Lahabrea's body was a stolen one at all. Somehow that totally slipped by me, most likely because I experienced the game at a snail's pace doing everything but MSQ where possible

[@honeydarlinggaming9156]

At 4:15 i personally think it's the way the quest is PRESENTED. All the others are shown to be you trying to get the tribe to help YOU meet the primal. But the titan quest is placed MASSIVE urgency upon the player. Only to collect food and cheese and wine... You're not helping some natives to have them help you meet their god. You're doing fetch quests for somw people who "might" have slain titan.

[@KawaiiDespair]

I was kinda blazing through arr back in the day to get to dun scaith so I only have hazey memories of arr, but when we started actually dealing with the empire I was hooked. And then the first time I was told to set aside a bunch of time for cutscenes for the banquet, I was so hooked.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

this. the empire part was the only part i cared about ahaha.. now i'm in the just past the first chunk wich i would call level 50 quest hell because it's just another slog of do this do that then do a dungeon that is a pain because the queue takes way too long... and look you can't queue as white mage because your item level is just barely short of the neccesary amount

[@voidhunter2800]

As a veteran who has played through base ARR almost 11 times now, its not that bad. Though a funny thing about the level 15 fight, it used to be very difficult; in fact so difficult that without cross classing cure or physick depending on where you started, you could not clear it; so they heavily nerfed it.

[@andrewl7367]

As a veteran it probably isn’t bad at all. But that’s because we’re already invested. I doubt newcomers feel the same way. Combined with the stretched out nature of MMO stories, lack of voice acting and frankly lackluster combat and this game feels unfortunately dated and probably hard for newcomers to get into

[@Feridire]

@@andrewl7367 This is it, as someone who has played for a few years I love the ARR story as I think it builds the world a good bit. But I have a friend that has started just this last weekend. and has repeatedly told me if it was not my promise of the game getting better he would have quit so many times. Very often I drip feed him the side content that he can go do to give small breaks in the story.

[@voidhunter2800]

@@andrewl7367 I don't doubt that at all, friend of mine had one of theirs join a few years ago; i did help out a lot with just telling em that ARR puts out a lot of stories, that will come back at some point, and to just take it slow do the side content take a break if needed, the game isn't going anywhere for the forseeable future.

[@andrewl7367]

@@voidhunter2800 I feel ya, I've had similar experiences. My concern though wouldn't be that the game is going anywhere, there's a healthy population to keep it alive for another decade of expacs i'm sure, but it sucks that among my group of friends I can't seem to get anyone to stick with this game and it sounds like I'm not alone in that experience. The best part of a lot of games is getting your friends to join you and it sucks that it's so difficult to do that in my favorite MMO

[@voidhunter2800]

@@andrewl7367 Maybe use NG+ to join them through ARR? I wouldn’t know how to make it work, i have never really had friends who wanted me to join them in an MMO.

[@delsingray5923]

If someone stops playing the game just bc others says it sucks, that's a them problem. They have issue with being their own person and making decisions independently. If they quit bc they assume its bad, that's on them.

[@Titanxzero1]

I like ARR I never felt the slog playing through it for the first time. Mostly because this was my time playing an MMO and the exploration of the world and its scenery most likely played some effect.

[@biggrayalien4791]

That Vishap fight looks so cool! Ugh I can't wait until I reach that point again. Honestly I started over fresh, my old main owns a house, is stuck somewhere in the post-EW content looking for our dragon friend's sister. I really enjoyed it, but I felt like I missed out on ARR stuff 7 years ago because friends kept telling me to skip it in order to "get to the good stuff" or to stop "wasting their time" and "just watch the cutscenes in the inn." As someone who joined back in 2016, I never got to experience Praetorium organically until the changes in Stormblood/Shadowbringers. Hell, I didn't even get to _unlock_ every cutscene to view in the inn because everyone just skipped them. I'd finish the cutscene to get our Magitek Armor back, get the cutscene to the Iron Giant, and then by the time _that_ cutscene finished, everyone had already beaten Nero. I'd get the first cutscene for Gaius van Baelsar, and by the time that cutscene finished, I was suddenly in a burning field and Ultima Weapon was in the middle of getting its ass handed to it. I had no context for the story. Hell I didn't even know I missed out on Castrum Meridianum cutscenes, but that's its own can of worms. And y'know what was the saddest part about it? I was fucking _stoked_ to get to this dungeon. Everything was leading up to this fight and I was all for it. I stopped skipping cutscenes, I got off discord and just enjoyed it solo from after Titan up until this point. I was so excited to get to experience the dungeon and story, and I never felt so deflated, so disappointed immediately at the experience I got. It basically made me get the SparkNotes version of post ARR content. I skipped through most of it, I was kinda frustrated and didn't even know it. Ramuh was awesome, Leviathan was pretty cool, the creation of the Crystal Braves and the sudden collapse of it all was very parallel to things I had experienced in the past, so it was relatable, but I couldn't tell you names, or legitimate experiences I had. The introduction of Ysayle was really fun, I got all the big events and mostly paid attention to it all, but the anxiety of wasting everyone's time and missing out on cutscenes led me to a bad heaspace. My partner just started the game, and I've given her about as much encouragement as possible without making ARR feel like a dreaded slog. She hasn't even reached level 30 yet and she's just enjoying it as she goes on. She was looking up Viera naming conventions and already is pretty wary of online consensus and general gaming community bullshit that we're all just kind of numb to by this point. But it's encouraging to see her enjoying the game so much. So much so that I am retiring my old main and sticking to my bun boi, she has inspired me to play ARR again with about as fresh of eyes as it's going to get, not having touched early content since late 2016.

[@mosselyn5081]

The point you made about interrupted tension is what resonated the most with me. I didn't start playing until 2019, so I still remember my initial experience pretty clearly. (It was pre-trim, too.) The dips in pacing almost made me quit several times because I ended up feeling like I was just running around pointlessly to stretch out the content. I only stuck it out because of my friend's "it'll get better!". I don't think skipping would have been the answer for me because I would have hit HW with no understanding of the world or investment in the scions. Those aspects add a lot of richness to everything that follows. I wish they could just rework the pacing, but I can't see that ever being cost-effective for them. (The slow pace of job progression is the 2nd big stumbling block to me, but that's another topic, as you said.)

[@StarAether]

yeah the advice about skipping is more on a case by case basis and kind of in reaction to the "never skip" mindset a lot of people have. in the end everyone is different and the things they will be willing to do to enjoy a game are different!

[@redlunatic2224]

I think the sheer quantity of side content is really important here. I spent the entirety of ARR switching classes, learning them and doing their quests. If the MSQ had a much faster pace, i may have opted to just stick to it, but its slow and meandering structure was a nice invitation for distraction and exploration, and i think im a better player because of it.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

this is defenitely true. however for me it's also kind of a means to an end. i'm at a point where for the fighting classes i have at least 3 that i haven't leveled much yet where as most are at least level 30. i haven't done much for crafters yet apart from a little bit of leatherworker (due to the insane amount of animal fur i had accrued) and a bit of goldsmith however the MSQ feels like such a slog that i need to swap to other things here and there. i've finished the first bit of the msq and i'm now in the never ending level 50 quest hell wich is a pain because every time a new dungeon pops up the wait times are so ludicrous i just go insane ever so slightly (i did also level a tank and a healer but oh look my regular level is fine on my healer but my item level is just about too low to be able to queue into the next dungeon. so i'm forced to use my ninja wich just makes the wait times range from 10 mins if i'm lucky and 30 if i'm unlucky) even though i really enjoy the other content the moment i move back to the MSQ it just feels like i'm trudging trough a thick layer of mud with how slow it goes. and the only story beats i have cared about somewhat are the big bad guy parts everything else just didn't capture me (the class storylines captured me more than the scions. especially after you free everyone and everyone just returns to the place where they were captured in the first place. like oh yeah let's go back to the place the enemy already knows they totally won't stroll back in to 3 finger death punch us all)

[@wolffster25]

I knew going into FFXIV that I would have to endure hours of setup to get to the good parts. Then again this my first real experience with an MMO so the novelty of the experience helped with my enjoyment of ARR I met a lot of nice people who were more than willing to help me learn how to tank it was great. ARR is like trying to get people into the Trails series when I say that Trails In The Sky is all setup for the sequel I’m not kidding but because of that the story has a lot less to inform the player about because they should already be familiar with the setting. When done well like FFXIV and TRAILS it can be incredibly enjoyable in a way you don’t find in many other games and that is why I love FFXIV flaws and all. Edit: Also all the references and easter eggs helped too I’m a huge FF nerd also Tactics Ogre.

[@StarAether]

the comparison to Trails is a good one. for games like xiv and trails there's just a large time commitment that acts as a barrier to entry for a lot of people, which is unfortunate. doing it with people always make it easier tho!

[@Michelle-vm3dp]

I really like your analysis!! You make some legit points and its really reminding me of ARR which i honestly forgot having bought a story skip on most of my alts... I would love to see what you think about the endwalker patches bc i personally really like them but a lot of my friends agree with it not sticking. I really wanna hear that side!

[@redcpt3791]

Amazing video! Really enjoyable analysis. Though it's interesting that these little 'between the lines' details when it's concerning the interaction between groups and the subtle worldbuilding in ARR is definitely great in itself. A lot of people will say the Coerthas bit in ARR is probably among the most tedious and boring. But worldbuilding and introducing this new group is done expertly there in my opinion. You hear tidbits about Ishgard before you actually go there and when you do you're met firsthand with this society built on mistrust and fear. The pacing of the general story lets the actual material down.

[@StarAether]

Thank you so much! Can you believe that, even after playing through it at least 6 times, I'm STILL finding worldbuilding details in arr? It's so great :D

[@nerdychocobo]

I found it really fun and interesting going through the side quests in coerthas while doing the story, you really see how much people are fucked over by the dragonsong war and the ishgardian government

[@truesoprano2152]

You know what? I'm just gonna come out and say it: I liked ARR more than Shadowbringers and Endwalker. A lot of it is due to everyone constantly telling me ARR was terrible while I was playing it, and even that Heavensward was terrible in comparison to the last two expansions, so of course they never met my expectations. But ARR, while not as "epic" of a story as the later expansions, just had this amazing worldbuilding that really immersed me. Obviously the fetch quests are terrible and really grind the story to a halt at some points, but honestly I think every expansion has this problem to some extent, and looking back I really enjoyed the actual story beats of ARR. Even though Heavensward is actually my favorite expansion I will defend ARR with my dying breath, and I'm actually disappointed with where the story went in ShB and EW due to them ignoring a lot of what was established back then.

[@KironX1]

It’s funny because it has the best story out of any MMO in game. I’ve been playing MMORPGs for 30 years and there literally hasn’t been any with a story inside the game that’s even remotely close to ARR. it’s so weird. Are people judging it based on single player games? Like have you all played WoW? The story in the actual game is terrible and mostly non-existent. Have you played ultima and EverQuest? Story is also garbage and nothing exciting. Asheron’s Call? Dark Age of Camelot? Star Wars Galaxy? Like MMOs have never had good stories. When I first played ARR it was so good to see some real effort put into a story since all the MMOs I played didn’t have one. It’s even better than a lot of single player games these days it’s weird how people hate on it.

[@StarAether]

so in the lead up to making this video I asked a couple friends their opinions about arr and one really stuck out to me. Guy was a long time mmo player and said "ARR is a good mmo story but a bad FF story." For me that really sums it up well. I think, because it has the name Final Fantasy attached to it, the expectations for story quality are much higher than other mmos, or other games in general. So people aren't as impressed by a good story because they came in expecting a great one.

[@zerosuitfalcon]

Enjoyed your points, narration, and voice so I look forward to any future videos

[@NotRealAkira]

I think the simple fix for the Haukke Manor quest is to turn it into an optional dungeon (blue quest)

[@Skitz470]

Found your channel through your Dawntrail video and gotta say I really liked this one. Well done

[@Ephremjlm1]

It's so crazy to me. I remember my first time playing ARR I had no clue about the Calamity or anything so anytime there was mention of it I was so lost. But the funny thing is that there are SO MANNY great side quests that are better than the MSQ that actually do the job of explaining the last events and how the world had been rebuilding. I did ever single arr quest and that was a big gripe for me.

[@thekoalaz]

Please make more content! As someone who just got two coworkers to start ARR, this was a wonderful perspective

[@StarAether]

oh awesome! I really hope they stick with it and get to enjoy xiv to the fullest. also thanks for the encouragement! I'm already working on another video so don't worry haha

[@udalix]

Man it took me 4 nights playing 5 or 6 hours each night, trying to speed through the post quests for AAR. The first night being when I finished the Ultima fight and thought that it for AAR. After while I could tell I wasnt done, on the second day I googled it and seen just how many quests in I was, and how many I had left to do to start HW, holy moly.

[@FuuJojo]

Great video. I just finished the main story of ARR for the first time and basically agree with everything you mentioned. Hoping that it picks up from heavensward!

[@StarAether]

good luck in Heavensward! Just know it also starts off slow (which people fail to mention lol) but really picks up at the halfway point and keeps going all the way to the end :3 looking forward to hearing how you like it

[@marcynados]

I’ve only played up to heavensward and tiny bit of stormblood but I really like how these problems are addressed in a way, for example the warriors of darkness questline gives sympathy to kobolds and expands on why beastribes summon primal in the first place

[@The4thHorsemanIT]

I replayed out of curiosity over the years the whole story tried the 3 city starts, seen the changes and also found out little details I missed in the previous times, plus the updates and the new Cape Westwind and Steps of Faith. It is not perfect and still taking it slowly and enjoy it is a true pleasure.

[@linuxwillrise]

Praetorium enough said

[@farlado5459]

Something I was expecting and didn't see out of your review is that A Realm Reborn is the *exact* sort of story you would want in a more traditional MMO. It introduces you to a new zone, it gives you the flavor of the zone, and mostly just guides you along within the zone while you pick up additional quests, fight the mobs in the area, chat with the others around you, and brings you back into a zone to visit the areas meant for higher-level players as your own level increases. This is classic MMO story design, but it tends to be more a vehicle for memorable in-game experiences with other players, rather than being the memorable part of the leveling experience itself. That is why ARR feels less engaging than other expansions; it was meant to be a vehicle to propel you along to the next social experience or lore dump, rather than being the experience of leveling itself. The other issue is that ARR had to bring in 1.x content in some way, if it could be salvaged. That is why there is such a huge number of leveling dungeons. Personally, I love cold starts and lore-heavy beginnings. It gives you a huge amount of foundation on which to build out great stories which are only possible when you have first laid everything about the world out. ARR does this just fine, and without ARR you cannot ever have the sorts of payoff which begin as early as Heavensward.

[@morsetthedeer8843]

I have to agree. I started playing about a month ago and have a weeks worth of hours in playtime by now. In that time, I've gotten Miner to 51, Botanist to 45, Fisher to 41, nearly all my DoHs in the early 40s, and my main DoM/DoW class, White Mage, at 47... Meanwhile, in the MSQ, I just started the Company of Heroes line. I'm prone to wandering off and exploring areas well before I'm intended to, so I've already gotten basically every Aetheryte you can access by this point (DoL Sneak be like that). Which means my MSQ is now even less engaging, because these "Introducing this place" Quests come a dozen hours and half a dozen visits after I actually first arrived there, and I spend more of it waiting for the Teleport cast than I spend actually reading a lot of the dialogue. Though, with how dead silent the WOL is, maybe it's more of a monologue. Oh, and being on the Free Trial *DOESN'T* help. The more I progress, the more I see "This Feature is not available in the Free Trial." PvP? Nope. Trading? Nope. Housing? No. Starting a Linkshell? Nuh uh. The Market Board? In your dreams. Retainers? Not even in your dreams. Free Companies? Well, what do you think? And I understand *why* this is done. Doesn't mean I like that fact.

[@ageant01]

This was a great video! As someone who has played since ARR I don’t get all the hate it receives. It was a good time then, and I still enjoy t now. Except for the company of hero’s, that really did blow. I really did enjoy your analysis. I hope you’ll do more! I’d especially like to hear your specific opinions on the ARR patch content, and Stormblood as well.

[@TheAuron32]

i've played through all expansions 3 times now, with another soon. the main problem is even with all the trimming they've done, it STILL feels like a long slog, so much go here, talk to this person, do this many times and go to where you started for seemingly no reason other than wasting your time being a messenger... this is annoying when you KNOW the NPC's have Linkshells for long distance communication!

[@RBNinja]

ARR is actually pretty good when you already care about the world and story. After you've beaten Shadowbringers (which is peak story loving time) you can go back and actually appreciate the amount of story and world building the game is trying to give you.

[@PeacefulPorcupine]

I hated post-ARR. The Crystal Braves were so obviously a bad idea, and I DID remember people like Laurentius, so I felt like I lost agency going along with it.

[@StarAether]

oof yeah if you were paying the least bit of attention it was easy to see nothing good would come of the Braves. I just sat there the whole time like "when is it all gonna go to shit?" and I guess it was the morbid curiosity that kept me invested XD

[@PeacefulPorcupine]

@@StarAether Yeah, I wasn't merely asked to watch Alphinaud doing stupid things, I had to give a recruiting pitch to Laurentius. I was instructed to find suitable recruits, and I saw him and immediately said "Oh hell no, he is not a suitable recruit." Neither was the PTSD victim butler from Haukke Manor, why in hell am I being asked to talk to these people?

[@PervertedNovaxc3]

@@PeacefulPorcupine I feel you on that. It's one of the times that I feel our character is forced to hold the idiot ball at times. Another one that pops into my head is one of the Stormblood duties.

[@JoelDombek]

great vid!

[@lucalycan]

in Endwalker, the DPS job quests have you meet back up with the Company of Hereos. I mostly skipped the scenes thought because of the bad taste they gave me the first time I met them.

[@BigMisiu2]

Very well done video!

[@kuraichyan]

ARR is why I play the game, does it feel like they were still trying to figure things out? Sure. Did some of the quest lines feel too long and too many here and there? Yeah. But when actively playing it I was engaged, and the post main game patch content was spaced decently. I think the only part that really made me feel like it was dragging a lot was Titan. Though, I do think some of what made me enjoy ARR is that I was given a lot of story things to do, I could play the game like an RPG, and not like a lot of MMOs (grind and ignore story).

[@SalinaMoonfall]

This, not just figuring things out, post-ARR, they were definitely buying time to finish Heavensward. You never see post-quest content that long in later expacs which are all pretty uniform in how long their post content stretches out. ARR has its flaws, but they're flaws that make sense in the context that they come from if you look at them in retrospect. Narrative wise ARR was also doing the impossible and having to serve as book one for the setting AND carefully work in or around 1.0 at the same time, so it was pulling double duty of carrying the narrative weight of world-building, while also doing world rebuilding.

[@kuraichyan]

Exactly. What ARR was doing and accomplished is amazing and almost impossible.

[@genkki4776]

I honestly loved ARR. I was new and there wasn't all this hate for it back when I first played it. I enjoyed it immensely. Every new location was big and beautiful and I got to see new NPCs. Today's world is too obsessed with things being worth your time, as if your time today is more valuable than mine was when I first played this 10 years ago. I play to explore and learn about what's going on. I didn't play to get to another expansion. Besides, at the time, ARR was all we had. But I never really felt it was a chore.

[@applepie9806]

I restarted ARR some 4 times I think, and each time it failed to capture me. It was too straightforward, and I didn't slog on long enough to hit Garuda in any of my 4 times, because it was really hard to solo content and the early dungeons didn't have much people at the time when I was trying the demo, and I was in the wrong region. It's definitely something that only having friends to play with makes better. Which makes sense since it's a MMO. It wasn't until I found some friends to play with that I finally pulled through ARR and landed in dragon land. Like you I'm a story-focused type of person. That was a little bit of a less slog since there was a more interesting story in HW. However, it wasn't until ShB hit that I was hooked and marathoned ShB in a full week, EW in the next week, and then chilled and finished Dawntrail MSQ in 1 month.

[@mikamischief1239]

I always tell sprouts "read as much as you can, click on people and things whenever you feel like it, and when you get to the end of Endwalker it'll be worth it." I make all of XIV the road ahead, not just ARR, because it's all a path to the end (which is currently another ten years out if the devs get their way) and it's all appealing to someone. I'm an avid ARR enjoyer, for instance, and everyone told me it would suck. One thing I always say is that I love certain characters most hate or ignore because I walked around and clicked on everyone I saw between quests. It's why I love all the Lalafellin Scions, not just because I'm one but because they had such rich lore that you just miss out on unless someone says "hey, go click on them and see what they say." This issue still sort of exists in the expansions, where lore bits and character are in side optional text, like Emet's description of the Convocation's seat roles or, worse, tribe quests with option text on NPCs for world building lore. I also send as many sprouts as I can 1.0 videos so ARR looks way more cool.

[@DanielSantosAnalysis]

Fantastic video, very even handed and well thought out.

[@v-keianime5442]

As a beta test player for ARR I quite enjoyed playing through it, even with the extra padding of quests, enough to do it 7 different times before heavensward launched. While the pacing in some parts was a bit slow, the way it built up the world around you to feel inhabited by the race and cultures was done fairly well considering it was the transition from 1.0. While I never played 1.0 (do to not having pc at the time) I did my own diving into the lore in preperation for 2.0 so I had good knowledge on the scions before playing. Though it was a shame, as you mentioned, that we did not do as much with them in actual quest until way later in the plot. Although doing quest like endwalker where they follow you around could have been better if done in ARR where the stake of world destruction is not a thing yet. Also the handling of alot of the scions individual stories was never really delved into unless you played 1.0 or did your own digging which I think was my biggest let down.

[@newyorknole2225]

The easiest way to solve the problem of long blocks of text is to add voice acting to ARR.

[@ObsidianCrane]

I describe ARR as a tutorial. It’s a tutorial for game mechanics, a tutorial for the setting, a tutorial for the major plot elements and a tutorial for the NPCs. Could it be shorter? Yes. But, it’s got a lot of work to do that has to carry you through 4 more full expansions. Take your time and explore and discover things. ARR is a solid game experience, if you don’t have people telling you it’s not. Is it slow at times? Sure - but if you’re not deeply into the larger FF meta, that slowness is important. It’s very easy to get frustrated with how some things are managed if you’re rushing. But if you stop and look around and remember the game is teaching you about things all the time that ultimately make the story more complex and interesting it’s easier to enjoy. Remember, the story of the wine in Titan is about the fact that the soldiers of the Empire are just as human as the Eorzeans that they were sent to conquer. (I’d be fine with the Gridania leg being cut now, as it’s whole weight is gone now, or it should be restructured to relate to the ruins on that map that are why that camp is important, so when you finally do that dungeon and uncover all that story it is better foreshadowed.)

[@dhayris160]

I remember playing just as Heavensward was about to come out and doing my lvl 50 relic quest on Paladin. I was tasked to run around the world, pick up two pieces of the set, then do something else for two levels and come back for the next two pieces. You had to do this like 3 times. I just decided to no longer play at that point. When I came back towards the middle of Shadowbringers, I almost quit AGAIN when I had to do the post ARR quests before I started Heavensward. I’m glad I pushed through ( and that quest line got trimmed later on), because Heavensward was what kept me all the way through to mid Endwalker. ARR was a filter. I’m glad I did it, but I would NEVER do it again.

[@icarusavery5691]

Hearing everything you were saying about the problems with the patch content I was honestly just going like "man, sure am glad CBU3 never made that mistake again, ENDWALKER."

[@shweppy]

Unfortunately, the story pacing and MMO norms at the time of ARR are hopelessly intertwined. They had to provide 50 levels of content since that's what every MMO does. After the three starter dungeons, they wanted to have one dungeon every three levels to help with leveling alts (Halatali and Qarn were added in patches to fill the remaining gaps). They wanted Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda to hit at 20, 35, and 45 not just for story reasons, but to hit various milestones in the class/job system they had designed. For example. Titan needs to be at level 35 because it is the first major set piece battle where people have their job crystals. I'm actually amazed at how good of a job the devs did at trimming out a lot of the fat when they did their MSQ revamp. The areas you mentioned are still a but rough, but it would be really difficult to cut out more without drastically revamping the leveling system as well.

[@holo_val]

This was a fantastic video essay! Really enjoyed it, thank you. I came completely fresh into the game during the lead up to Endwalker because my friends were very hyped and wanted me to try the game. I think it was a combination of being an "old MMOs" fan and the awkward voice acting but I really fell in love with the story and the zones early on and was hooked by the time I met the Scions and fought Ifrit (helped that FFX was my first FF and I loved Ifrit). But oh... my... god. This was the peak era of "just wait till heavensward!" and it drove me nuts! I couldn't barely mention how exciting it was to fight the primals and Ultima, the things I liked about the different zones and the Scions without getting talked down to "But ARR is BAD! Lmao you LIKED Minfilia? Just wait till [expansion], it gets SOO much better!" like come on, I am having fun playing right now, why does that have to always be qualified as a lesser experience? It's like you weren't allowed to enjoy anything about ARR and it really put a chip on my shoulder going into HSW. I love every chapter of FF14 now with each of their own quirks and flaws, and I am glad ARR is getting a bit of glow-up and new love from the players

[@StarAether]

Thanks for sharing your story! I’m so glad you didn’t get turned away by the negativity and managed to enjoy both ARR and HW on your own terms!

[@cj_skywalker]

This is what happened to Pokemon Scarlet/Violet - the dev team had been forced to put out Paldea six months too soon and therefore, had Scarlet and Violet come out now instead of a year ago, then the frame rate issues would have been resolved and they could have made it so you didn't have to do all three storylines to get to the endgame, so you could just skip the gym challenge. :(

[@thecrowonyourshoulder]

One thing that makes me think why people feel differently about ARR now is because the game got big, and it improved. When it first released; no one really knew what was coming. Heavensward, Stormblood, Shadowbringers, Endwalker, and soon to be Dawntrail. Without the knowledge of these expansions; I think people would feel more positive about ARR. ARR also has the grindiest achievements, and holds a lot of extra content compared to all of the expansions ahead of it. I think more or less, people are just wanting to see all of the cool and improved aspect of the game, and that is where all of the players are at too! So I could see why people would hold such an opinion. Take away the expansions for comparison, ARR is a pretty good game in itself. Great analysis by the way! You thoroughly talked about the issues of ARR and equally praised it.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Also, while admittedly ARR is the worst out of the extant parts of FFXIV, it is surprisingly hooking as well. Yeah, you’re just a person with the echo and that makes you uniquely qualified to take down the Primals especially since Minfilia is just an administrator, but the scope of the Primals is still engaging even in base ARR. The Ifrit primal makes it clear that it is distressingly easy to summon a Primal. The Titan primal makes it clear that not every primal is just a destructive being even if they temper their followers and draw on the aether. The first supposed Ramuh meeting shows that the threat of the primals is not permanent and really only matters if beings really want the primal to return. After the surprisingly engaging Coerthas struggles, Garuda makes it clear that most see the Primals as salvation. And then the Allag weapons come out. Good King Moogle Mog XII shows that that being could even be a previously existing figure. Finally, Enkidu shows that literally anyone can summon a primal. Thus, Primals are random, hard-hitting, and always devastating, which is why until the Warrior of Light came by the Scions were always scrambling to make peace (though in the case of Titan and Leviathan Merlwyb did not help).

[@Zanador]

IMO the "break things off into side quests" approach would be the best way to solve some of the length issues. Haukke Manor is a great example like you said - it barely has anything to do with anything else and could easily just be a blue quest that unlocks a dungeon, no different from Cutter's Cry or whatever. In fact, as someone who thought the first few post-ARR patches were the absolute biggest slog of the entire MSQ, I would go even further and say that the Moogle Mog, Leviathan, and Ramuh stories should be split off into blue quests to form a Trial Series similar to the later expansions. While plot-relevant stuff happens in between those stories, the actual plot of those three summonings have nothing at all to do with anything else, and are merely there to push you towards doing the "shiny new boss of the patch". This made sense on release, but now 9+ years later they just feel like filler content. Honestly, as someone who just recently started Shadowbringers, I feel like the writing team STILL hasn't totally figured out how to naturally integrate new Trials into the story. Even in Heavensward and Stormblood the summonings of Ravana, Bismarck, and Lakshmi feel like they have very little bearing on the main plot, and they tend to sort of come out of nowhere with little fanfare besides someone running into the room and yelling "there's a new primal!!!" I wouldn't go so far as to say that *those* should be split off since that would be excessive and much harder to accomplish IMO, but it is a common sticking point for me throughout the story. Susano is a little better in that his summoning and defeat directly plays into gaining the trust of the Kojin, which is important later in the Doman storyline. Edit: Also this is unrelated but THANK YOU for calling attention to the way ARR brings up the idea that the beast tribes are only violent and summoning because of oppression and mistreatment by the city-states but then immediately drops that and does nothing with it ever again. After seeing how fully integrated the "beast tribe" races are on Norvrandt I'm really hoping it FINALLY gets addressed again soon, but I feel like the game just keeps teasing me on that point.

[@Jade-nn3bn]

Coming from WoW during Shadowlands, the ARR story was fine for me; It was better than any of the BFA or Shadowlands stories I was doing beforehand up until the post-ARR content because it wasn't made clear to me that the post-patch content was story content and I had really wanted to get to Ishgard to play Dark Knight. I thought it would be like Death Knight - my main class in WoW. It ended up making me dislike every Alphinaud, Minfillia, and Crystal Braves interaction. However, the Moenbryda story and the payoff of the final ARR patch was incredibly hooking for the Heavensward expansion. It later turned out Dark Knight was nothing like a Death Knight and I was already level 60 from all the Post-ARR content so I unlocked Gunbreaker in Gridania which has been my main job ever since.

[@Iluvatar196]

Two words : fetch, quest

[@Shizukanexen]

I loved ARR, started playing in 2013 and loved it and I've been hooked ever since, so I disagree with most of this video, but it is still neat to hear other peoples pov. I think too many people get caught up in wanting to do the new shiny stuff and just don't let themselves enjoy the journey. None of the later expansions would mean anything to me without the toil done in ARR. I also miss a lot of the stuff that they cut out of ARR.

[@ruthnovena40]

There is a lot of the original ARR is i missing the side quests themselves contained missing story. bits. You had to do the side quests they contained story bits you got Xp. and skills from them and opened dung. Some of the quests were removed to make ARR faster. for new players. and it was reworked. and given the option of doing the MSGS .

[@Raven-um2wf]

ARR is fine, abit slow and long in the tooth at times yes but I like to think of it more as introduction and setups for so much. Without that the rest wouldn't be nearly as powerful in impact. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step after all and those first steps are just as important as the last. I think that's part of why Stormblood is ragged on, it falls between great expansions and acts as setup like arr did but is so so important in so many ways

[@seb3661]

You literally have 2 skills. It's shit.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Strangely enough, I am a person who liked the stuff of ARR Coerthas. They mention the Ixal, who reside in the Shroud, but then you have to go to Coerthas and man, is it hostile. Even as you break in by performing tasks for the House, the Inspector Guillaume keeps interrupting, and in the midst of side quests, I just wanted to take Guillaume down. It was also cool to learn about the super strict way Ishgard was structured and how it was failing them, in that literally everything was tit-for-tat, that the Houses literally had themselves tiers, and that everything had to be done towards the dragons.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I liked that part too. I liked that Ishgardian society was so hostile and focused on the dragons that basically you needed an in to even get to the point where you could HELP people as a “wandering traveler” and also the flaws of that society that a Dravanian who acts like a very strict inspector was entirely enmeshed in Ishgardian culture until the Warrior of Light had to come by to get the ship to get to Garuda. I personally find that better than the Titan sidequests because at least the Coerthas sidequests were literally about impeding whatever and you really had to prove you were this adventurer willing to do that much for a group of people shunning you except for two people.

[@thebrave9971]

I think the worst point of ARR is definitely the patch content... If you don't take breathers and try out the massive amount of side content from time to time. They did not design the patch content to turbo burn through it, which is what I did, and, while it never really dettered me, mostly because of my ability to hang out with friends through the turbo burn. If I didn't have those friends to chat and hang out with, I don't think I would have been able to get through the Patch content, the way that I did.

[@chaosxrunner]

Wait, they added Stormblood to the free trail? Since when?

[@donkiwi4888]

replaying ARR is a way better experience than your first playthrough. It gives you more time to actually think about things that are happening because you have context for the setting, most characters (as well as their relevance) and the overall plot. You're also not preoccupied with learning how to play an MMO which can make a lot of stuff less frustrating from a gameplay perspective and can actually feel rewarding when it speeds up exploration and navigating quest objectives. Edit: as you mentioned it let's you experience a different starting zone too. Luckily only Ul'dah and Limsa are actually worth your time since Gridania is at best vestigal in it's story relevance (I started in Gridania).

[@kajacx]

I can describe the ARR story as a "hit or miss". Ifrit and Titan are a great example. With Ifrit, you progressively unravel the mistery of missing people and stolen aether crystals, the quests you do actually make sence and the story is compelling. With Titan, it's problems from the get-go with the reason that he cobolds are summoning him is that Limsa broke the peace treaty and attacked the cobolds. That's right, your job is to nuke the kobolds because they are defending themselfs from an unprovoked aggression. Not a great start. Then you go to do not one, but several pointless quest lines that are completely unnecessary and you can't wait to get finally get done with it. It's a shame really, the story could have been good, but it simply isn't. If they want to keep the unprovoked aggresion from Limsa's part, that could have been insteresting. If the quest line was you investigating how that conflict happened exactly and trying to make peace with the cobolds, that would make sense. But instead you go to do random bullcrap and the fact that the cobolds arent really in the wrong is never addressed. What a shame.

[@vuerenkuraenir]

ARR is pretty objectively my favorite expansion, actually :) So it's fun to see people talk about it. I adore its story because it lets all the other expansions reap the rewards of my investment into ARR, and *that's* why I consider FF14's story great. Because if you actually invest yourself and flesh out your character's RP, you get to sit back and enjoy the rest of your little adventure throughout everything. Such as the very first time my character learned the mystical power of *throwing* something. Or the very first time my character wished she was not alone, prompting me to make an alt to go through the very same journey. Just for her.

[@StarAether]

I'm really glad to hear that it's your favorite! and like I said, I actually enjoy ARR a lot myself for a lot of the same reasons you mention, it builds up slowly and lets me really dig my teeth into the worldbuilding. There's a reason the RP scene in xiv is so big! But I also recognize a lot of people come in with different expectations, a different mindset, or even different ways of playing and I guess that's how I ended up making this video to kind of understand what those people were thinking and feeling going through arr and not enjoying it. It was fun for me cause I love analyzing stories! Anyway, thank you so much for watching :D keep on that Eorzea lyfe

[@ExiaLupus]

It annoys me to see people fundamentally misunderstanding how stories work and pretending ARR is bad just because you're not instantly a legendary hero saving the universe on day 1 of becoming an adventurer. There are other reasons people dislike it as you've mentioned in this video, but that's one of the more common sentiments I've seen and it's so dumb and impatient.

[@4mb127]

The cheese quest. That's pretty much it. ARR is a pretty fun MMO on MMO metric.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

i'm at the patches rn and my god is it a slog.. every time i feel like i'm getting a bit closer to the end of level 50 hell as i call it it just throws another dungeon at you. a dungeon that i can only queue into with my ninja and not my white mage because of the item level restrictions being just slightly off. so i end up waiting 20 minutes for a queue to pop then end up crying because oh look more quests i really don't care about. the last bit of the MSQ with the empire was actually enjoyable and i was invested. but now it just feels like i'm running around like a headless chicken doing stuff here and there but not actually getting any further.. it's like carrying a bucket of water to the sea and i just end up back at side content but then realise i need to continue the msq because if i don't i'll never get to try some of the dlc classes i so want to try out

[@manbearpigsereal]

I find it really funny how you suggest making the level 15 solo instance more challenging as someone who played in the ARR betas. in phase 3 it was actually hard, if you weren't playing CNJ or didn't bring antidotes it was pretty much impossible to clear, there was no indication that you would need them beforehand. afaik the only players that cleared it first try were the CNJ players.

[@petrus9067]

I feel somewhat of a contrarian in the way i find the patches actually good story? Mind you i played in shadow bringers so after quest pruning but still i had all of the patches availiable. Anyway, i think it's not much different from base arr, and to see the different plotlines and kinda going back and deepening our understanding of previous characters. I also liked how after evwry patch ending there are a couple long cutscenes hinting and showing what's to come. Plus the trials (ramuh, shiva, etc) are so much better. The introduction of elidibus, the isle of val mystery, the wilred and later crystal braves (which i admit they are a pretty long storyline so i see them as kind of the weaker part) plot. There are a lot of nice things in the patches even if it feels just like doing random errands at the start.

[@oldseabear]

For me, A Realm Reborn was the second MMORPG I chose. The WoW community wasn't for me, I wasn't there for 14 days. After that I had no interest in MMO for another 3 years. Final Fantasy as an MMORPG with other players was just an attempt, but after about 3 months of sporadic visits, the story grabbed me. This was probably due to the franchise of the Final Fantasy series and I recognize a lot from the Final Fantasy games (consoles). Whenever a new add-on is announced, everyone wants to get involved immediately if possible. Story is irrelevant. For me, the slow story development was a blessing and also because I found a suitable guild quite quickly. For me, the story is the main reason I've been here for 10 years now. If you don't follow the story, you'll look stupid at some point when others talk about it; these players just don't understand many side quests and allusions. But everyone should play as they like.😘

[@StarAether]

oh yeah, for me I was a long time FF fan who had never played an mmo and had no interest in mmos so I was always here for the story first. I think going in that helped me a lot cause I never felt lonely doing stuff solo cause I was always used to single player games anyway. The tricky thing is there are a lot of people that genuinely love the slow start and some that it turns away immediately. There's no way to really "fix" that difference no matter what they do. "Everyone should play as they like" YES! Exactly this!!

[@ReaverPrime]

The answer is simple; Time. This game came out in an era of gaming where "player engagement" was king. Devs of all studios were tasked with keeping players in their game for as long as possible. And while many did so with absolutely insidious grinds, FFXIV tends to do it with its narrative. Note just how few monotonous grinds there are in this game. And the ones that are there are nowhere near as egregious as those in other games. Also note that the single most notorious grind in the game, Eureka, harbors some very pretty carrots at the end of its stick in the form of beautiful relic weapons, armor, cosmetics, mounts, minions, and the ultimate prize, Demi-Ozma from Baldesion Arsenal.

[@hjordan2814]

Really nice video that keys in and puts into words the issues ARR has. To me, the Titan questline is most egregious because the test to prove yourself worthy to have the strength to defeat a city destroying primal is you have to....gather party supplies while each of the CoH are an asshole to me? Heck, even the first part of it seemed fine, get the meat from a frog, ok I have to kill something to prove worth that makes sense. The whole "oh this was secretly a test the whole time" feels very weird because why keep it secret? Yshtola pointing out in multiple occurrences that it's a waste of time only adds to the aggravation. A friend of mine literally yelled "THEN WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME DO THIS, GAME!?" the first time she mentions it. I've literally done it where for friends playing through it, I offer to chauffer and fly them around through the Company of Heroes questline just to get them through it as quickly as possible. Other than the corrupted crystal questline (which yeah is annoying that you somehow keep getting the wrong thing, but at least you are trying to accomplish something towards the plot and not off doing something unrelated), I do feel that ARR really kicks off after Titan because of the status quo change that occurs when you pray return to the Waking Sands. Honestly both questlines are salvageable. Make it a single task you have to do for CoH, getting the meat from frog, maybe expand it so more frogs come in that you have to fight. For the corrupted crystals, just remove the times you get the wrong crystal. To the point of one of your proposed changes, I always assumed that with Titan and Garuda were already summoned, they could simply willingly dissipate and manifest wherever as needed by the beast tribe. Yes, there's still the issue of you go off doing other things while these primals are out and about presumably murdering, but I never saw them appearing in the trial intro as something off or unusual.

[@Zoeila]

this gets overlooked but the titan questline teaches you titan mechanics. perhaps the story could of made that more clear

[@banane2279]

I only started paying attention again once Minfilia etc. were kidnapped and the rest at the Waking Sands slaughtered for me to load up onto carts and bury. After that, I just said "Ok" whenever the game's narrative stumbled. There were a lot of OKs muttered in post-ARR. I only wavered again at the terrible ending of post-ARR. That was the most insulting, unsatisfying, waste of potential I have encountered in this game. Post-ARR seriously suffered from unnecessary exposition, "foreshadowing" and reducing the WOL's braincells to nil to make the ending "work". If there hadn't been some epic, shocking moments reminiscent but stronger than the burial quest, I don't think I would have continued - that, and a bad case of cost sunk fallacy.

[@JoelDombek]

man i didnt kno what the issues i was seeing was but this is def what they were. loved the vid i try not to even be (-) but my heart goes out to new players and having to cover that up when selling them on it

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

I am a huge ARR hater and the only reason I didn't quit was because the game was free and "it gets good at Heavensward." I started typing this as an argument against your video, but you soon showed that you were on the same page as me (you simply tackled things through a very different method than I would have.) It was with the introduction of the refugee subplot that the game began to win me over - and by the end of the patch quests, I had done a 180 degree turn from "worst FF ever" to "excited to continue." Story: You're on a similar page here with interrupted tension, but I think the problems go deeper than that. Long before Titan, there are MAJOR issues with the worldbuilding of ARR. We have loads of information dropped on our heads in massive infodumps. Silvertear Skies is the most obvious example: we first hear about Silvertear Skies with the introduction of Gaius, but the thrust of that scene is to introduce the Empire baddies. This background information is completely unimportant when our attention is being grabbed by "evil bad guys" in "evil armor" being underscored by "evil music" who spend their opening scene killing Eorzean moles. When Silvertear Skies is brought up later (and we're expected to know all about it), *I had completely forgotten its existence.* It was only through replaying ARR did I realize it had been mentioned at all. This is a repeated issue through ARR: Alphinaud and Alisae are briefly introduced before one is forgotten completely and the other takes ages to become relevant. Primals are spoken of long before they become important, the political spheres of Eorzea are given background sidequests and then are promptly forgotten by the main narrative (as mentioned in your "interrupted tension" segment), etc. Building background information is a good thing - and ARR lays a lot of groundwork! - but since none of it is ever important to the main narrative of ARR, it makes the story drag every time, and a lot of information doesn't get absorbed because it isn't immediately apparent what is important to the actual narrative and what is flavor. I love flavor, but it is something that should be searched out because you're enamored with the world (which begins with the main story), instead of being awkwardly inserted into the narrative without any hint of how it is important. This is an important thing to note in addition to the interrupted tension. Story point 2: "Greed and corruption of lalafells?" What? Just because Lolorito and Teledji Adeledji are businessmen - and both of them are rather shady - this does not make lalafells greedy or corrupt. To say that Gegeruju getting in our way would be "foreshadowing" of the Syndicate getting in our way later is nonsensical - *the only way it could be foreshadowing* is to say that he's a lalafell and lalafells are scheming little bastards. It is an awful way of looking at writing. Furthermore, there is no purpose to Gegeruju stopping Titan from being defeated, as that would be obviously bad for business - if Lolorito or Adeledji were in the same position, they would work with the WoL to protect their interests. This public service announcement was written by a lalafell WoL. #NotAllLalafells The players: I had no knowledge of the game or its reputation going in. It was only when I began complaining about it to a friend was I told that HW is where it got good, and that gave me something to hold on for (and it was free, free, FREE no way was I wasting money on this crap game no matter how good HW supposedly was.) Rhitatyn and Lahabrea have been immeasurably improved, no arguments there. The worldbuilding/environment is GREAT when it isn't stopping the MSQ. In contrast, it was the players that I marked as the one good thing about the game. Everyone was friendly and helpful, which I didn't expect from an online game. The bards on street corners were so much fun to listen to, everyone had fun glams, and everybody enjoying themselves was a bit contagious. Various side points: The worldbuilding/environment is GREAT when it isn't stopping the MSQ. I love so many of the locations, which makes it a shame that the narrative jumping around them without giving anything actual development is such a shame. The music is excellent, of course - one of the big reasons I started was because I heard "I am the Sea" (Limsa day theme) in a list of "100 greatest Final Fantasy songs." Legacy content means nothing to me, and will mean nothing to all other new players. Side content is nice, but you're only gonna get into it if you're enjoying the rest of the game - and the story/gameplay are... not good in ARR, for the most part. I assume you'll get into gameplay later, so I'll address that when I get there. The early "Zero to Hero" section of ARR is easily the best part of the story - but once the Scions are introduced, everything immediately becomes a slog, finally ending in a cliched battle against evil. The Devs: Agreed on all points. I wrote a bit about Haukke Manor being turned into a sidequest before I reached that section of your video, even. Touche. You barely touched on gameplay, but I find that to be a big issue as well. ARR has been gutted in its job mechanics, as you said. The early game design was built on a scale of "tougher job mechanics/easier enemy mechanics," and has now gone the other direction. The easier jobs mean that fights can be more elaborate in stuff like Shadowbringers (I looooooove the Dark Apocalypse raids so much for all the crazy stuff thrown around), but in ARR we still have simpler fights designed for more complex jobs that simply don't exist at level 50. You mentioned Lahabrea and Rhitatyn: their revamps are under the new style of gameplay, and are a lot more fun than many other fights in ARR because you have to dodge constant onslaughts to survive. Unless the whole ARR experience is given that revamp, most fights will be braindead. Furthermore, some of the fights that did have complexity have been gutted for the Trust system (I'm looking at Midgardsormr losing everything that made him fun and unique).

[@nickachu94]

I didn't really have any of it feel like a slog my first time through. But I think part of it was it I was a lot more bright eyed and taking it in at the time. But that could just be a luxury of playing it before HW and almost patch by patch as it came out. I think the only part that remotely felt like a chore to me was the lead up to Garuda, not the titan one. Could be linked to how much movement though as it was before flight afterall.

[@TheLogan1156]

Really good video. It's been almost two years since I played through ARR, so I forgot about things like how bad the Titan quest chain is. But my biggest complaint about ARR is just how trite its MSQ feels. It's like they intentionally wrote a story that hits as many of the classic Final Fantasy plot points as possible, which winds up feeling painfully unoriginal and boring if you're a series veteran. I found ARR's true main villain, the Garlean Empire, to be one of the most uninspired in the entire series. Their presence as villains is major component to my dislike of the 4.0 MSQ, as well. In fact, I'd argue that there's nothing even remotely interesting about the Garleans until the Stormblood patches and Emet's various lore revelations. Endwalker then does a really good job of humanizing the Empire and its people, but it sucks that players have to sit through two expansions that feature the Garleans as boring villains before we got to that point.

[@darkchaozbringer785]

The only reason people hate ARR is a combination of people comparing it to the latest expansion and/or going off what these people have to say (i.e. ARR is a "slog" to get through, it gets better after..., etc.).

[@danisafilthycasual]

I'm playing through ARR now, first time - and I kind of hate it more and more lol I'm about hald way through it and I hope the good part starts soon.

[@Ardethdelumière]

For me, it's the lack of voice acting or the mish-mash of voice acting. There are way too many quiet, boring moments in ARR that negatively impact play retention. Because if I get bored I'll go do something else. I think if they went back and remastered ARR to EWs standards of MSQ, it would be a giant boon to player retention. Plus, if you did that, you could remove the voice change in Heavensward, and it would flow better. I played 2.0 ARR, and it was shit. I don't want to make an alt and have to suffer through it again. Anyway that's my feelings on it.

[@blitz3391]

I started playing FF14 2 years ago with the sole knowledge that the base game was a bit tough, but you had to just truck through it. It started dragging a bit by the end, but i enjoyed it pretty much. I haven't played DT yet, but it's an other can of worms. The only time i thought to myself "uughhhh let's be done with that thing....." were the Hildibrand quests. I started them after finishing EW to get the weapons, and i hated them from the get go with all my guts. I hated the characters, i hated the humor, and even when skiping all the cinematics the quests themselves are boring af. NOTHING happens in them. 90% of them you just talk to people. I actualy had the list of quests open to count down how many i had to yet truck through.

[@delimelone]

The ARR grind almost made me quit this game. The only thing that kept me going was people that kept hyping up Shadownringer and I'm glad that I kept going.

[@niki75]

I dont dislike the main story of ARR. It's the stuff between the end of the ARR MSQ and the start of Heavensward I loathe so much. So much so that I have gotten the story skip for each new character ever since.

[@ursulcx299]

Look, ARR wasn't perfect, it had some slower moment and the cheese and wine quest were a biiiit tedious with the back and forth. But I was already hooked during the Limsa only parts, I was already in love around Ifrit. The choc of finding the dead bodies at the waking sands was a good moment for tension and hype. Does it get better? Yes. It does by wide margin, but we got from very good to mindblowingly amazing, it doesnt diminish ARR to say it got better, it just says that despite setting a high bar they cleared it. And yes, the patch content has some odd pacing in the first few quest, but it picks up and while the frantic pace towards the end might be a tad to confused with all the plot lines mixing together, I felt like it was a high point in the story. The later parts of the story built on and expended on ARR and its patches, and wouldnt be the same without it. I will aknowledge I started playing during 6.0, meaning I played it after some polish had been applied, but its still a great time and I wouldnt be here playing this game so much if arr hadnt existed

[@AFriendRemembers]

Re - your annoyance that after the attack on the waking sands you have so many quests in Corthas before saving your comrades. Whilst i get what your saying, the moment the scions were raided by the empire, and you, alphinoue and Cid set out to rebuild the Scions reputation - was the moment the game story tinally 'started' clicking for me. It felt like the scions recruiting you and sending you against ifrit snd titan was the official 'beggining' after finishing the city state intros, i was put off by all the irritations in gridania and limaa wasting my time. The isues about the CoH you discuas was the irritation i'd had with almost everything the game had done since day 1. So i found the Coerthas diversion, building both reputation and power, enough to enable you to rescue Minfilla, an excellent drive and motivation to progress. Witbout that time away from the formulaic approach i'd fallen into i wouldnt have ever developed an attachment to the other characters. In this case absence definifely makea the heart grow fonder. And as you say - its also the part where the Primal and Empire storylines start to play off each other - which they hadnt managed to do until this point.

[@jereboy2005]

I actually quite liked ARR overall. I came over from wow and was in love with its basic quest stories. So transitioning over to this story heavy game was great. However i did consider dropping it when we got to the company of heroes. Its like you said, they completely derail the flow of the plot with saying Titan was summoned and we get stuck doing these dumb chores. The crystals for garuda was also pretty annoying. You definitely give some good points about the cast not being fleshed out. Love the reference to dragon age origins, my personal favorite game. If they had a little less focus on all the side characters and fleshed out the scions it would have been more fun. Overall I found stormblood worse than realm reborn anyway.

[@negeo1234]

This is such a good video. I really do enjoy but the things said I thought about too.

[@SharfKnows]

21:42 got me LMAO

[@benkent862]

Liked and subbed, looking forward to more videos :)

[@dragoon3266]

About to watch this video, but I have always, even when I was playing ARR myself, been confused by ARR hate. I think it is post hoc hatred; obviously, compared to that which would come later, ARR is noticeably weaker. It isn't as narratively fleshed out, it is slow as treacle, the voice acting can be kind of bogus sometimes, "Pray return to the Waking Sands," etc. etc., we've heard all this before. ARR is not a bad story though; it takes itself slow as treacle for mechanical and narrative reasons. Mechanically, FFXIV assumes it is your first MMO, and its slow early progression is meant to ensure you have sufficient time to learn not only the mechanics of your class, but the basic mechanical trappings of an MMORPG. Sastasha, for all it is memed, is literally just meant to exemplify the statement, "well, this is a dungeon." Narratively, the game is about your rise from love rent adventurer trash to hero of legend Warrior of Light, and it means it. While you might be a hero by destiny, you have to put in the fucking work to earn your destiny. I think, as the grand introduction to your story, it is very solid. Not amazing, but a great foundation for what would come next. This does not, however, prevent it from being a giant Star Wars reference, which I have also maintained for years.