The late vs the early Roman soldier.

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[@sergeipohkerova7211]

"Look at this late Roman soldier: weak, and degenerate!" "I'm actually a very nice person once you get to know me." - Guy in portrait

[@RexoryByzaboo]

A very nice person indeed, unless you're a barbarian invader.

[@iyadsaoudi7956]

#35 sms seset bnf blle myilanw

[@bvillafuerte765]

@@RexoryByzaboo But the Romans did include the barbarians in their civilization at the end of their education.

[@RexoryByzaboo]

@@bvillafuerte765 at the end of their education?

[@cr0sad3r70]

He looks chill fr

[@herpyderpy2869]

Early Roman: LOL pants? How barbaric Late Roman: Dude, put on some pants geez

[@bjarkiengelsson]

Early Romans, before setting foot in Germania or Brittania "Ha! Pathetic weaklings! Look at them, hiding from the cold winds with their pants!" Romans, after freezing for a few centuries and realizing skirts don't stop thorns nor errant glancing swords, nor well thrown rock "Maybe I'll give those frilly feminine things a try...?"

[@imperitalica]

Ahahahahah Early Roman in middle age: no! No! Tutti indossano i pantaloni!!!!!

[@nicholaswhitman4620]

Too many frozen balls in Brittania for them to not wear pants lmao

[@darthmaul216]

You wouldn’t ask a lion to wear pants so why a man

[@aburoach9268]

@@darthmaul216 Lion has fur & Man does not

[@lachlanmclennan2188]

Lesson or the day: Don't get your military advice from a guy named vegetable

[@Zeero3846]

Yeah, it didn't work out well for an entire planet and the king that ruled it.

[@Lasershadow]

DBZ Vegeta want to know your location...

[@Rawarart]

@@Lasershadow it's not real, doesn't count

[@jrexx2841]

I don't get the joke

[@samuelzins5089]

​@@jrexx2841it's alright. Me neither but it appears to be a sound argument

[@larsrons7937]

I believe the late Roman soldier was as well adapted to the kind of battles he would fight in his era as the earlier Roman soldiers were to the battles of their own time.

[@AlexG-xl1cc]

Yes the training was less about the maniple shield wall and more about relative individual combat with the longer Spatha and smaller shield. The force was also aided by more permanent fortifications vs adhoc Legion camps AND was more mobile to deal with threats along the frontier vs taking new territory.

[@AlexG-xl1cc]

Vegititus himself praised the late Roman Army's siege weapons as well.

[@bryanjacla1068]

I think there's another video that says the Principate (Early Imperial legions) army is built to conquer while the Dominate (Late Roman Army) army is built to defend and guard the empire

[@larsrons7937]

@@bryanjacla1068 Yes, a couple (probably more) of channels has made videos on that topic. I can't remember which. I know more than a dozen channels that could've made it.

[@TheSilkKing1]

Well, they got the job done well enough when they had a sustainable state to back them. The Eastern empire lasted a thousand years. The west well. Suffered from being poor.

[@tptallen4498]

Anyone who can hold a sword and shield then bear it against his enemies is not weak. It takes guts and an enormous amount of courage.

[@mat7083]

Nobody told my Tommy gun

[@gondar6181]

Yet Roman soldiers look silly wearing skirts.

[@SaraHeartlin]

​@@gondar6181and they made the largest Empire in the world whit skirts. Everting else was inspired from them

[@gondar6181]

@@SaraHeartlin Rome was nowhere near the largest. Look at the Mongols.

[@myth9240]

@@gondar6181quality over quantity

[@Pulang_Diwa]

That intro triggered the Late Roman History fanboy in me. Great switch!

[@NoobHammer]

Baybayin based

[@mekatronik_albo]

The comitatenses suck!! Roma invicta, the real old imperial legionaries were so cool.

[@503tasmanio]

​@@mekatronik_albo nah you're biased, the ridge helmet was cool and the lorica squamata Is underrated

[@mekatronik_albo]

@@503tasmanio The western part of the empire should have used these type of armor and tactics with centuries and max legion manpower of 6000 it would have stopped the barbarian invasion :P while east is another story

[@itnotmeitu3896]

Both legions were fucking next level compared to their contemporaries, they just had two extremely different roles for the times

[@akiladust6063]

Late Roman soldier armor looking more similar aesthetically to early medieval European armor Really interesting how that transition started huh

[@robertagren9360]

They used longsword and cavalry shields.

[@bernard3303]

Chain mail was durable, could be repaired easily and at a cheap cost and it offered a high degree of mobility. It made more sense to use it rather than plate armor especially in a time of troubles. their swords were longer than earlier times probably due to their contact with germanic people and their growing influence in the empire. However it also offered practical benefits. Additionally the roman soldiers used spears more than the past which led to their shields being more round / oval shaped as they are easier to use with spears. The main factors for these changes was economic problems but the legions remained pretty effective and their successor germanic states adopted some of these elements and shaped the early medieval militaries

[@RexGalilae]

The early Roman soldier always got the pizza rolls at the camp buffet The late soldier would get cold leftover mashed potatoes

[@diarradunlap9337]

Yeah, because the late soldier just got back from the Americas with the tomatoes and the potatoes for the next day's rations.

[@nikoarcher1243]

Underrated comment

[@pavelthefabulous5675]

Late Roman troops be chowing down the Vegetable Taco Pasta MRE

[@VuLinhAssassin]

They've already invaded American continent then? 😂

[@SteezyRedStars]

Lmao

[@ShaneDGri]

Dont forget the Constant Civil Wars depleted the ranks of the "legions"

[@Fart5353]

Id be careful following a narrative that someone who lived through it had a biased opinion

[@exposingproxystalkingorgan4164]

No empire from anywhere can last forever.

[@magistermilitum1206]

Rome existed in many ways for way longer than you think, was it German Greek Russian or French don't mean shit, as long as Rome and the pope(now a day) senate, USA and so on existed

[@tyty-xm8fw]

No country lasts for ever be they an empire or not. Nothing specifically about an empire makes it last less time.

[@molybdaen11]

No but Egypt and Rome did a good job.

[@spectre9948]

@@molybdaen11I mean China is still around at the height of their territory

[@molybdaen11]

@@spectre9948 Jes but it's neither cultural, religious or governmental the same. Every few hundred jears there is a revolution, they are like the French.

[@Wandererbane]

In my paper I wrote the greatest reason for Rome’s downfall is because they never had a proper line of succession established at any point after the fall of the republic. Though the economy in Rome was downright bad in the last 200-300 years of the Empire. Inflation was insane. It’s never just one reason. Fascinating

[@bobmcbob49]

Machiavelli argued that it was the loss of the Roman spirit to bring forth a natural leader, and not unclear secession. Sulla, for example, could be seen as illegitimate because he took power through force, but he did it to purge corruption before returning the Republic to normal. Machiavelli saw that type of benevolent power grab as a major part of what made Rome great.

[@noobkin6995]

​@@bobmcbob49I learned that what Sulla did helped lead to the fall of the Republic however, it sort of set a precedent for marching on Rome and eroded their republican values.

[@charlesc.9012]

I see the rationale behind that reasoning, it is also important for contemporary problems. Opportunism became serious, and while earlier soldier emperors came into power through their experience and capabilities, most late emperors bribed the Praetorian guards to stab some other bloke who also bribed his way into the office. Wars are always the most expensive, and internal strife is not just expensive, it is highly destructive to the social and moral fabric of society. By turning everything into a zero sum game, the only winner stands on rubble, and the Germans walked in and became the rulers, like the Arameans and other sea peoples that came in the previous historical period. However, the modern world is also becoming opportunistic, which is against the spirit of capitalism and the generation of value, especially the financial field. It is scary to think about it, because while Arameans, Philistines, Germans and Slavs are ultimately human, AI is not.

[@ziiigarrr]

Picture this: A late Roman Imperial heavy infantryman clad in thick ridge helmet,heavy lorica squamata/hamata and cloth/leather paddings underneath the armor.. He is also equipped with a shield, javelins or darts clipped in it, a spatha strap on his waist and a spear on his hand.. Well trained and disciplined in the art of Roman style of warfare.. He might be a veteran having fought against barbarians in the north, nomads from the steppes, the desert empires of the east or against his own people in a civil war..

[@molybdaen11]

You forgot the sling.

[@CTBandit4]

SPARTACUS

[@Aswar211]

if by "desert empires of the east" you mean persia(or parthia) you're wrong in thinking that persia was a desert. the north and northeastern provinces were(still are) very lush and persis proper(or fars province of iran today) is the most forest dense province, and the capital ctesiphon resided on the river bank of Euphrates in the "fertile crescent" part of Mesopotamia.

[@sillypuppy5940]

They had different enemies who had different weapons and ways of fighting. The late army relied more on defensive tactics followed by a charge when the enemy had exhausted itself. This tended to minimize Roman casualties, a good idea in the circumstances.

[@shimazutakuma1031]

"instead of weak soldiers, it was the weak generals" to be fair, during Belisarius' time, the Roman army was often outnumbered by the Vandals, Goths and even the Sassanids but still won impressive victories and realized the height of power the Byzantines had at the time during Justinian's era.

[@tylersmith3139]

If anything, that proves his point. The Eastern Roman army was still conquering people and winning wars for hundred of years after the West fall and its fall happened over a millennia later. The flaws of the late Western Roman Empire were due to its corruption and mismanagement. If they had better integrated incoming Germanic people into the empire and did not exploit them, they wouldn't have revolted and may have served as extra manpower that would have strengthened the empire's economy and if they better managed their economy, they wouldn't have faced such inflation.

[@shimazutakuma1031]

@@tylersmith3139 yes, i did agree on his point, i just gave an example of what these late roman soldiers can do when led by an able general, and yes, due to the failure of 'barbarian' integration and giving out lands to tribal confederatti instead of romanizing them and dispersing their allegiance to their chiefs, the romans preferred to look down on them... it was tragic, but it is what it is... the same thing happened with the ottomans...

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

The conversation in the novel "Count Belisarius" between Belisarius and his uncle on troops is instructive. The Uncle said the armies of the early Empire formed around heavy infantry were the standard and that going away from that doctrine led to the loss of the Western provinces. Belisarius disagrees. He states that the nature of the enemies faced by Rome changed and that the army had to change with them. He also postulated that the cavalry based army of the then current Eastern Empire of the early 6th Century were superior to the old Legions due to superior mobility and greater firepower thanks to better and more numerous ranged weapons. That the armored mounted archer was the ultimate expression of warfare. However, Belisarius notes heavy infantry will always be the core of the ground forces and that they are still useful in broken terrain and in sieges. Of course, the Uncle is not convinced until Belisarius' victories in defeating the Vandal nation of 50,000 heavy infantry with only 10,000 mounted archers and heavy lancers proved his nephew very correct.

[@HopeisAnger]

That said, Vegetius was, and is, an excellent primer on historical tactics and training. Just don't pretend he knew everything, just a good starting point.

[@EGGM4N]

No way that "The West has fallen" stereotype has been a thing since forever

[@liammeech3702]

That armour is heavy and probably a pain to maintain.

[@watapizza1225]

Yeah, that's the point

[@rmg480]

The early roman army had extremely specialized units that worked in tight formations, but as time went on this was left in favor of more flexible and mobile troops.

[@skippadadippa2412]

The roman plume helmet mixed with early medieval armor is so cool

[@All41135]

I can only hear “Get back in formationnnn!!”

[@TetsuShima]

What a perfect time to post this short. The Pharaoh Nerd just posted a video about AI images depicting Late Roman History (including the uniforms from that era and Valens' defeat) with the artistic style of an '80s Dark Fantasy film. Absolutely recommended!

[@yuukiranze]

May you send the link fellow Roman frater

[@wolfattacker1]

Nice

[@alegoncalves472]

@@yuukiranze If he does please let me know!!

[@yuukiranze]

​​@@alegoncalves472 he already did, comment bugs... kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqisn3eqh5Kdmqs here it is, enjoy!

[@TetsuShima]

Early roman soldier 1#: "WE MUST DESTROY ALL BARBARIANS!!!" Early roman soldier 2#: "YEAH!!!" Late roman soldier 1#: "WE MUST DESTROY ALL BARBARIANS!!!" Late roman soldier 2#: "Dude, our blood is literaly filled with barbarian DNA" Late roman soldier 1#: "Oh...right..."

[@quantashonjamaldigglerbury4934]

doesnt matter fight or we will remove your balls

[@enricomanno8434]

Yes indeed.. because the barbarians they like to be part of the Roman empire and civilization.. well.. not all of them Attila didn't care less

[@Freedmoon44]

@@enricomanno8434 well he did care about the Roman empire and civilisation, its just that it and its riches doesnt belong to him, so he fixes that

[@B3RyL]

"Octavius... Are we the barbarians?"

[@RexGalilae]

@@Freedmoon44 He was Roman-educated, I think due to his aristocratic blood, and also spoke fluent Latin and Greek iirc

[@whydontyouhandledeez]

"The bank broke before the legions did."

[@MrFredstt]

Ah. Complaining about the current era and talking about how the past was always better has always been a thing it seems

[@someaussieguy140]

Well that's not exactly wrong, sometimes the past was indeed much better. I dont think anyone would argue that in its dying days Rome wasnt a shadow of its former self.

[@masterexploder9668]

Vegetius just being a boomer long before the term became popular.

[@EzekielDeLaCroix]

It's not that Rome got weaker, it's that their enemies became stronger and more organized.

[@aetius7139]

Not always the case. Politics of rome is like a game of thrones cranked to eleven. The romans are to busy stabbing each others back than to unite to fight barbarian invaders.

[@EzekielDeLaCroix]

@@aetius7139 Explain how come the Romans had a hard time fighting more centralized states like the Parthians/Sassanids - ending in stalemates most of the time. Carthage gave them a run for their money as well. Many other smaller petty kingdoms or disorganized tribes were more often than not the immediate enemies of Rome. But soon as the tribes united under more centralized rulers, the Romans found them increasingly difficult to deal with. The fact is, a lot of Rome's enemies weren't centralized and the ones that were centralized usually gave them a run for their money.

[@franciscocardenas4774]

@@aetius7139 agreed and well put

[@aetius7139]

@@EzekielDeLaCroix I merely point out that. The biggest enemy rome had is sometimes is it self. One jealous emperor or general is just it needs to create a conspiracy. You could be the best general in the field only to be framed by jealous rival general and executed the next day. More generals and emperors died from conspiracy than in battle.

[@EzekielDeLaCroix]

​@@aetius7139 Ah, OK but the video is about the Late vs the Early Roman soldier, not the political turmoil of Rome. Sorry, I was just keeping to the implied topic of the Roman Soldier in comparison to his opponents, I assumed you did as well lol my bad.

[@yuukiranze]

If they were weak; Maiorianus, Stilicho and Aetius wouldn't be that successful against filthy barbarians.

[@linming5610]

Their legions were largely composed of barbarians.

[@aaronTGP_3756]

Granted, Flavius Stilicho and Iulius Maiorianus had large groups of Germanic mercenaries.

[@randomguy6152]

well belisarius was also barely roman

[@j.m.d.a1496]

Bro saying "filthy barbarians" when all of them had german blood and their armies werw comprised of foederati 💀💀💀

[@yuukiranze]

@@j.m.d.a1496 well i didn't mean by race but by citizenship. they had german blood, yes, but they were still Romans 💪🏻

[@requiemfps6680]

Coupius Maximus out here

[@namesomega3694]

Late Roman soldier is basically the beginning of the dark age era

[@matefuto4262]

Early romans for the drip

[@thenotsodemocraticrepublic7731]

So you're telling me there was a Roman version of Pierre Sprey

[@inquisitorialllama638]

Lol. Pierre would've been the one guy who would be telling people that Greek Fire doesn't work, then tell everyone he invented it when it is shown how great it was.

[@jacksonperez5615]

How much generalization do you want Him: yes

[@thomassenbart]

The Roman soldiers were demonstrably inferior to their counterparts prior to the late period and 'reforms', of the 3rd century, which reduced the standard legion to a mere 1000-1500 troops, illustrate this well. The differentiation between Limitanei border troops and Comitatensis and Palatini field armies also show a considerable weakening of much of the force. The Barbarization of the Army in the century, beginning with Diocletian, resulted in a large transformation at every level in the Army. Discipline was drastically changed and the ability to maneuver, form nonstandard formations or complex tactics, a loss of engineering abilities as well. The loss of standardized equipment and replacement of with chainmail, the scutum for a large round shield and the gladius by a long sword, were all arguably deficiencies too. In short, the late Roman soldier, though capable and brave was nowhere near the equivalent of the traditional legionnaire, in a traditional legion of the Republic or early to mid-Empire.

[@royharris5101]

Late or early they are still the greatest warriors in history. SALUTE.

[@potatolord9715]

Whether you win or not, we love you late Roman soldier

[@helenamcginty4920]

Re Roman soldiers in Britain. A lot came from warmer countries like the middle East. N Africa and Spain. Look on the Vindolanda site. N E England. There were letters regarding warm woolen socks and underpants. From a cache of partly burnt rubbish that got rained on (good old british weather) and preserved in the wet conditions. If you visit England well worthva journey north. Forget London. Visit York (roman, viking, medieval, gothic cathedral) and Vindolanda, Hadrians Walk, stunning NE coast. Durham. Etc etc etc

[@adamdesouza6153]

Armoured Legionary : I AM STRONG I WILL DESTROY EVERYTHING Roman treasury : Yes… yes you will 😢

[@AntonioZL]

Just discovered your channel and you're a breath of fresh air. Thank you for remaining scientific in times of a clown fiesta.

[@JacobBite]

Thought early would mean Republic here. I love Polybian legions so much

[@Shottyshotgun1]

I've never seen a picture of a late Roman soldier and it's honestly insane, looks like an early medieval soldier larping as a Roman

[@HO-bndk]

If he was transported into an Anglo-Saxon warband, he wouldn't raise an eyebrow. 😊

[@ryane3703]

During like 90% of Rome's existence roman writers were constantly complaining about how Rome was so much better in the good old days

[@saber2802]

I like how during the start of Rome's troops, they had spears and at the end, they had spears./

[@freneticness6927]

Empires are like companies. Very few last longer than a few hundred years

[@LaPtaVerdad]

Late roman soldier looking like a cuisine minion

[@Kelogos]

Oh god thanks for pointing this out I once saw a guy complain that the late Roman army was bad because they got rid of the gladius and used spears more often . My brother In Christ the Huns were on horseback who the fuck wants a shortsword.

[@aaabbbccc4253]

All good empires start out conservative until that conservatism slowy fades away to “new ideas” and then the real world shows back up and pops the empires bubble

[@n.w.4940]

Very nice so see, that people always complaining about "in ancient times everything was better" were already there in the 4th century and not a thing our out times :)

[@SpeedRunningWarcrimes]

Days without thinking of Rome: 0

[@kmorton54]

Excellent video.

[@mygetawayart]

i love how you can clearly see the evolution of armor design from the more classic early imperial armor to one that would eventually inspire early medieval armors.

[@michaelsanders7484]

Weak is probably not the right word. In fact focusing on the individual soldier is also not something I’d shine the light on. Instead, I think the breakdown and swapping of infantry tactics along with the weakened logistical capabilities is what makes the late Roman soldier inferior to the former.

[@alexdelvento1273]

Many say Rome never fell. Its infrastructure in ruins but its people and cultural significance are equally strong today than ever.

[@blueberrygod8275]

Late roman helmets look better than prime roman helmets. It had that spartan style.

[@JSYT17]

This demonstrates the fact that not all soldiers wear body armor. Never rely on a stereotypical standpoint.

[@user-rb1ck6ox8i]

A real early Roman soldier would look like a hoplite

[@basiliimakedonas1109]

Late Roman army was better because Romans were using combined armed tactics compared to early legions being mostly heavy infantry with some light cavalry and mercenaries for skirmishers. Some troops didn't use armour for speed but were not unprotected, like Greeks during latter peloponnesean war they wore linothorax that could protect well enough and a shield that covered the body.

[@alexTorres-cs7co]

thats not exactly true, in the early roman empire, half of the army was auxilia fullfilling those roles.

[@arthodom2043]

Siempre se dijo que las amplias fronteras potenciaron el uso de auxiliares menos equipados en detrimento de legiones mejor equipadas. En mi formiga opinión, la clase militar, impulsada por el costo de los guardaespaldas reales, y recelosa de soldados de origen extranjero se tornó inviable por el cese de expansionismo... Like para más, que me enrollo barata ná.

[@asiborteddyblaine6203]

All the reasons you gave Still came down to the fact that they were weaker than their earlier counterparts.

[@kevinduperret1910]

Defending a large territory requires a much more mobile force as well, their tactics were completely different

[@ismeal231]

It also has to be said that the Western Roman Empire was just way more volatile in the latter centuries. Most of Europa was technically under Roman control, but constant incursions from the tribes easr of the Danube, and then the Hunnic invasion that followed cost the WRE economically that it wasn't feasible to have fully adorned legions like it was during the Roman high period.

[@stevenpace892]

The fact is, the barbarians got stronger too. Like all armies, the Romans evolved and improved. Marius was really important.

[@YorkyYT]

The legionary was devastating, but only against infantry or some lighter variants of cavalry. But generally, with the hit and run tactics of the east, spears are the way to go. And as the medieval period rolls around, cavalry, particularly lighter and more heavily armoured stuff, spearmen are your counter. Tho in fairness the legionary does look cooler.

[@Blefiz]

Front and rear units? What are you talking about? A proper roman armie should cycle between front and rear units until the bitter end...

[@mattgarland9090]

Valens wasn’t incompetent he was working with bad intelligence

[@mortache]

Bad intellect*

[@mattgarland9090]

@@mortache his intelligence network was actually terrible lmao his scouts said the army was like a 5th of its actual size

[@tudorm6838]

There was also the organization system. In the end, it was centralized and less distributed (and self-sufficient), so a defeat (~ Adrianople) could cost much more.

[@mintz9782]

Well the older Rome conquered most of the known world while the late empire wouldn’t have been capable of expanding as much.

[@farkasmactavish]

Old =/= better, and they changed the equipment for a reason.

[@cthonicaidoneus]

a lot of byzantine (late roman) military strategy centered around subterfuge, diplomacy, and underhanded tactics as well which they were good at. The Roman empire never declined in warfare they simply adapted as they’ve always done.

[@nichevo1]

...and I took that personally

[@angryvaultguy]

You can win 1000 victories but suffer one defeat and people will forever mock you

[@MoldyOog]

If Vegetius was well informed, he'd know that having unarmored infantry for easier maneuverability was a tradition going as far back as the 5 classes of the Roman Kingdoms. (Phillip of Macedonia is also a good example, and though there are many, I'm referring to a Roman example first as a way to more clearly point out hypocrisy).

[@toshineon]

I dunno why, but I had to watch this like 4 times before the information actually stuck with me.

[@DieLuftwaffel]

Besides armor etc, wasnt his main complaint the lack of discipline and the use of tactics which once made Rome a hard nut to crack such as making new fortified camps every night? I though he said they threw away all these effective tactics and just went through the motions. Been a very long time since I read Vegetius though.

[@charlesbrooks94]

I really like the aesthetic of the Late Roman Army

[@user-ec8gb4ij8p]

I aggree its all about right leaders and training,italians are not weak never were.

[@user-ze8xn9ro4t]

I think Medieval period was a bankrupt period for ex-Western-Roman territories and while the barbarians prospered according to their former state.

[@HuyPham-km9kn]

Old Rome had weak enemies. Late Rome had to deal with other super powers.

[@kamespinosarojas9225]

What's wrong with my brain? When I read the title I tought about the super early Roman Hastatii.

[@hishamsawza1532]

People only support a cause if the cause supports them.

[@c.coleman2979]

Vegetius wrote sometime during the reign of Valentinian III by best estimates, which would put the book sometime in the 420's or 30's. The Romans still used some armor, although most units relied more on a large saucer-shaped shield, with maybe some using mail or plate under their tunic and engaged in more mobile tactics and maneuvering.

[@beeg693]

What about the writings The decline and fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon? According to an abridged version I read they were lack of their conditioning and training.

[@dudi0_0]

The late Roman army was very much strong. They recovered slowly, but they can still throw punches like the Roman legion, they were still a trained and professional force. Though the late army was more of a political tool, rather than soldiers. The early Roman legions were full time soldiers and doesnt have to worry about many things that the late army deals with.

[@beeg693]

@@dudi0_0 what I read also is that the soldiers weren't training with the same amount of vigor. Nor would they practice as long. They complained it was to hard. They weren't in shape to fight long draw out battles in the later years. Sounds a bit like American regular soldiers of the last ten years.

[@stanleyrichardfunk5269]

History worth knowing!

[@jacobmckenzie3854]

A soldier is only as strong as its generals who are only as strong as their Emperors. So if they had to dissolve (failed) and that is conducive with having weak soldiers if you can't pay to have any, then yeah, they were weaker. Can't put them up against eachother to see for sure, but that would be awesome.

[@user-io6mv8jc7k]

Bellshill, it was also cos they were recruiting from tribes traditionally enemies of Rome.

[@davidnoll9581]

People are driven by incentives, statistically. If their behavior has changed statistically, then their incentives must have changed.

[@karlscher5170]

Well, it's "late" Roman Empire because it ceased to exist short after. No woking out of that.

[@jokerbattle7331]

What really made Romans strong isn't just equipment. It's the Roman will to keep on fighting and adapting. That's why even if Rome loses 100 thousand soldiers they would still keep on fighting to the last Roman. What made the western Rome so weaker than their earlier counterpart is that they forgot it. They no longer had the same spirit and will power to fight like that anymore that defeated Carthage or conquered massive land. But on the other hand Eastern kept adapting as such they lasted for another thousand years.

[@shadowlord1418]

Rome wasn't defeated militarily but culturally. It rotted from the inside

[@jokerbattle7331]

@@shadowlord1418 I agree with you. When West Rome lost its culture or fell into degeneration they fell. The city of Rome had millions of people yet they relied heavily on non Romans to protect them.

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

​@@jokerbattle7331 there was a time in the "dark ages" forgot if it wasl 4th or 6th century but Rome itself was a ghost town... Rome was handily defeated militarily

[@jokerbattle7331]

@@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479 yes people abandoned Rome. As there was no functional infrastructure that could supply and maintain the city. And for the next thousand years it will not have more than a few thousand people until the 18th century when Rome once again had a large population.

[@sk8rchris39]

lol I will say this pants were something used by the Germanic tribes so the fact that the Late Roman Soldier was wearing pants as their battle gear kinda proves the point that they may have been too far gone already.

[@blue_3675]

The early imperial equipmrnt of the army was so cool tho ngl

[@skysamurai4649]

Wow, the legionaries on the photo wear segmentata and carry the republican scutums. It’s a very interesting puece of reenactment and I’ve seen only one source on this kind of combination. Though, that’s actually my favourite, cause I find republican scutum more attractive than the later ones. Though, I also like republican helmets more

[@samuelmontenegroserniotti7146]

As the empire grew older, they started to rely less on native professional armies and more in foreign recruits in an attempt to separate military from politics (aka legions proclaiming an emperor and starting a civil war out the blue). This foreign recruits already had SOME fighting experience, so it was cheaper to maintain their traditions, rather to impose imperial standards. This made imperial armies ever more similar to the armies of their enemies, to the point of having almost identical character. This lack of contrast is what characterises late imperial armies the most.

[@pavelstaravoitau7106]

Which primary sources actually show this though? Is there an explicit statement of "don't give the new recruits good equipment to imperial standard because feck em"?

[@samuelmontenegroserniotti7146]

@@pavelstaravoitau7106 Nice question. Most of what I know comes from unidentified sources (internet) over several years of my own interest on the topic, so you got me there, and I cant tell you the historian who told us this, so if you wanna go deeper and get some more research, more power to you. On your second question, military equipment and recruitment started to become less of a national policy and more of a bidding war. One thing that you see happening over and over, specially in the eastern empire, is that instead of fighting many rival kingdoms at once, they always tried to buy one to fight the other together, and ended up being a part of the standing roman army. One of the most known examples is the varangian guard. The norsemen first were mere raiders and a problem to Constantinople, but later they became the emperors personal guard and an elite core of the roman army. And of course, they chose their own weapons.

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

​@@samuelmontenegroserniotti7146 standardisation in the old legions is not strict either, they had requirements just not as rough as we think, for example we know logically that lorica hamata would be the most common but segmentata is something everyone sees them wearing. And while yes the varangians are the core of *an* army for the eastern Byzantines they rarely appeared everywhere, largely the theme system protected everything and it worked fairly well even against richer rivals

[@kekoapeacock7992]

Also the Roman legionary didn't have plate armor like plate armor was only for high ranking legionares. The normal legionary only wore chainmail and a helmet for armor. This doesn't mean though that Celtic armys rarely had chainmail because around half or more of a Celtic army would have chainmail and and most of a Celtic army would also have thick cloth armor it was actually less common for a Celtic warrior to fight naked than to have armor. most of the time the only reason that Celtic warriors fought naked is because the Celtic warrior would think of it as a thing of honor. And you also have to consider the size of a Celtic army. A Celtic army could normally have around 100'000 warriors so if half or more of a Celtic army would have chainmail than we're talking thousands of celtic warriors with chainmail

[@maxwellschneiter]

War had changed by the time of the late Roman empire. Cavalry was much more widely used, large set piece battles were less common, soldiers fought in looser formations, etc.

[@patrickhughes1790]

That's a calvary soldier spear and shield only for a fast get away. They had one job, smash into the enemy flank, wedge and deposit the spear, escape back behind the Infantry lines.

[@thrillzmania]

Great video 👍

[@ganjarwb57]

Regardless of the strength comparison between the Early or Late Roman legion, the armour and shield of the Early Roman sure looks more ornate and impressive.

[@Daylon91]

They were also archers as well as infantrymen

[@jebreggie4225]

Roman history fans have become very good at coping

[@peterpienczuk2664]

something tells me that constantly decreasing borders shape peoples opinion of the late roman/byzantine soldiery

[@jemzbundzdobo7310]

the late roman soldier protected the eastern roman empire that lasted for a 1000 yrs, the suppose classic legion only lasted 300 yrs,,so the late roman empire soldier aint inferior at all,,remember the classic legion have hard time defeating cavalry amries of the east, it was when the romans started to introduce a longer sword and the spear as the main arm of the legion is when rome started to match eastern cavalry armies.