THE LIFE OF LADY KATHERINE GREY | Henry VIII’s niece | Lady Jane Grey’s sister |

[@HistoryCalling]

How much blame do you think Katherine should bear for the way in which her life turned out? Let me know below and remember you can also find me at: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/

[@LKMNOP]

She was totally to blame. Her family didn't push her in the marriages. She knew the laws and knew the consequences.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I think we can make that argument about the Hertford marriage at the very least. It was a very foolish thing to do and I don't know what the pair of them expected to happen as a result of it, but it was always going to end in (their) tears, one way or another.

[@edithengel2284]

She really seems extraordinarily fortunate to have died in her bed. She seems to have been both what we would now call entitled and totally without any ability to assess her cousin Elizabeth or her own situation as well, a dreadful combination.. I think she thought she was better than Elizabeth. Feckless. Life at the Tudor court was dangerous and harsh, and her failure to take that in made her life an unhappy one. It is incredible that after all this Lady Mary Grey repeated history with the variation that her husband was of lower social status. There must have been a reckless streak in the family. She would have made an absolutely awful queen. Thanks for the nice long video!

[@garycurry4600]

Well said. We cannot look at 16th century history through a 21st century lens. Katherine bares about 98% of her own blame, in my opinion, and I think I’m being generous giving 2% to her circumstances. I’ve often said I may be book smart, but I lack common sense, but even I know when to not poke the bear! 🐻 😂

[@simon112]

I do have sympathy for Katherine, but at the end of the day the choices she made dispite the advice and warning against her marriage she chose to ignore the advice, sadly it brought her downfall, be it stupidity or nieve, a very sad end for one so young, thank you HC superb as always.

[@reneesylvestre-williams3912]

I love how you pointed out that while others were playing chess, the Greys were playing checkers.

[@HistoryCalling]

They sure were :-)

[@thomasrinschler6783]

And playing it badly.

[@BrianHartman]

Hell, I think that was more like tic tac toe. :)

[@kazoolibra7322]

I have always felt Elizabeth I treated the two grey sisters terribly, but the story turns out more complicated than i realized. Thank you for telling it so clearly. I would love a LEGITIMATE biopic of the two remaining grey sisters! It looks like Katherine's judgment was not wise and she took terrible risks.

[@HistoryCalling]

I considered a video on Mary, but honestly her life just wasn't that interesting apart from her scandalous marriage and that was all done and dusted very quickly. If this one does particularly well maybe I'll revisit the idea. As for Jane, I've done a few videos on her, but she never seems to be as popular as I would expect which is annoying.

[@LKMNOP]

​@@HistoryCallingI think it's because you portray Jane as she was, very cognant of what she was doing and she did want to do what she was doing. Most people want to think of her as some innocent dupe. They don't like you or anyone else to dispel their idea of some innocent girl who was killed unfairly. Most people don't know history that well as you do.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

@@LKMNOP Jane wasn't a dupe, but legally speaking she was the lawful Queen who was usurped, betrayed and murdered. It's what historians say. And can we judge a 16 year old as anything other than innocent?

[@Shane-Flanagan]

​@@octavianpopescu4776Not what all historians say. Many don't consider Jane a Queen, Lady Jane Grey for a reason. It wasn't lawful as Jane was a de facto Queen meaning unlawfully official. She wasn't usurped as Mary was and is the rightful and first Queen regnant of England. Edward was a minor when he died so had no right altering his father's Act of Succession.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

@@Shane-Flanagan Edward being a minor doesn't matter, since he needed Council to sign off on his acts and he got that. They all signed. 102 people signed in total, including all the Council. Mary and Elizabeth were bastards legally. To this day, even though the concept was removed from law, it's still applicable to the British crown. Bastards aren't allowed to inherit the crown. That's how important that rule is. Henry only had 2 legal marriages (Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr). The other 4 were annulled. Mary merely took the crown by force, like Henry VII and retroactively legitimised herself precisely because she knew she needed to make it appear legal. But it was a coup.

[@areiaaphrodite]

Look, Elizabeth I was a great queen, but my God, she was so petty towards anyone who dared to fall in love and get married. And even if anyone asked her permission to marry, she'd make them wait years before actually granting it. It gives the appearance that just because Elizabeth decided that marriage wasn't for her, that it wasn't for anyone else either.

[@edithengel2284]

More forgivable in this case than in many of the others, though. This stolen marriage threatened her position as queen, and represented a potential threat to her personal safety--she'd seen her sister's accession threatened by Katherine's sister Jane. But, I agree, toward marriages in more ordinary circumstances, she was a real pain.

[@paloma4444]

This comment is beyond ignorant

[@areiaaphrodite]

@paloma4444 Say what you want, but that doesn't make it false 🤷‍♀️

[@KCohere33]

Yeah, Elizabeth could be a real witch sometimes. But then, look who her parents were. A real “I learned it by watching you!” scenario. Except in the case of her mother, she mostly inherited her pettiness. I don’t blame her necessarily for her personality and especially not for her fear of marriage but it’s a shame how many people’s lives are destroyed in the interest of a few people keeping their power.

[@nassauguy48]

That was the reason why, despite her Anglicanism, she forbade priests from marrying.

[@cherrytomato6139]

Absolutely agree Elizabeth, the astute politician and superb survivor, could see how much danger Katherine and her boys presented. I too find it astonishing she allowed Katherine, her husband and her children live in relative peace. All previous monarchs would have got rid of the lot in no time. Katherine appears to have learned nothing from her family's fate.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, had she been up against Richard III, those boys would have been dead (or at least had a highly suspicious and permanent disappearance).

[@melaniepemberton2882]

​@@HistoryCallingHenry VIi more like!

[@jadedgal05]

She was a superb survivor because she unalived most people who challenged her or caused her problems…anyone who threatened her reign, except of course those she was rumored to be having an affair with…Dudley. Virgin Queen my backside

[@sallycinnamon5370]

I don’t know. Part of the destabilization was her paralysis around marrying and creating an heir. It led to a situation where she feared anyone that was successfully creating a line of succession and living their lives as normal.

[@BrianHartman]

@@sallycinnamon5370 Agreed. I can see *why* she didn't want to marry or name an heir, but failing to do either made her situation that much more unstable. I'm not a political savant, but I have to believe that there was a way to name an heir or pick a husband who *wouldn't* threaten her position.

[@kae5717]

Your approach was rather even-handed, which I've always appreciated. The reality of their world was unfortunate, but it should hold more weight than our own modern opinions when we look at such things. As an aside: I also deeply appreciate the wide variety of art you showed during the video. Many history videos just use the same portraits as everyone else, but your channel always manages to show me portraits, even of very famous and frequently-biographied people, that I've never seen before.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you so much. I spend ages getting the portraits and footage I show, whether it be by travelling to places where I can obtain them, like museums and galleries, or finding them online, so it's lovely to have someone appreciate it :-)

[@MissMarie1377]

I can’t stand when people judge history through a modern lens.

[@a.munroe]

As much as my heart aches for her Lady Catherine made her own choices. I love her story and her family but I think you're correct when you say this family didn't have very much common sense. The nicest way I could put it is that they were all intensely stubborn.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, some of their life choices were just crazy and it's sad that in some cases their errors dragged other members of the family down with them.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I think of the 3 sisters as principled. They lived their lives on their own terms.

[@LisafromNOLA]

I’m with you, it’s a heartbreaking situation but it’s not like the rules were vague. Thank you for another fantastic video! ♥️

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Lisa. Yes, I think they were absolutely old enough and well enough schooled in life at the Tudor court to know better.

[@edithengel2284]

In 1611, Katherine's grandson, Lord William Seymour, repeated history by secretly marrying and trying to elope with Lady Arabella Stuart, 1st and half 2nd cousin of King James VI/I, a great granddaughter of Margaret Tudor, and an heiress to the throne. Their potential offspring would have united Lady Arabella's and Lord William's claims to the English throne. Arabella ended her days in the Tower, and William escaped to the continent. He did eventually manage to restore the family to respectability in the reign of Charles I. But there was something rash in that Grey line. Bess of Hardwick* was involved in both Katherine and Arabella's stories, as she was the court lady that Katherine sought out when her pregnancy was becoming obvious--she reacted to Katherine with fury at being involved. And Bess was Arabella's grandmother--the maker of the stolen match between her daughter and Lord Darnley's brother. (You'd think at least Bess, a canny woman, would have known better.) *I've done some further reading since I wrote this. It's now apparently thought that the Elizabeth St. Loe to whom Katherine first appealed for help was not Bess of Hardwick (aka Elizabeth, Lady St. Lo), but her sister-in-law of virtually the same name. Elizabeth St. Loe, Sir William St. Loe's sister, was the one who may have raged at Katherine and ended up in the Tower for sixth months. There are quite a few conflicting ideas about which Elizabeth was involved with Katherine. Another undocumented source says that Katherine's Elizabeth St. Loe was another lady altogether, a cousin of William St. Loe rather than his sister. I guess it might be possible to tell if Bess of Hardwick was actually exiled from court and rusticated to Derbyshire at the time. I'm not the first to wish they had had more imagination in the way of given names.

[@edithrohrer7329]

I appreciate your habit of judging people and their actions by the times that they lived. It is so stupid to attempt to rewrite history by placing the actors in today’s world.

[@HistoryCalling]

So many people to do videos on in this family! :-)

[@edithengel2284]

@@HistoryCalling It would be wonderful if you did more!

[@helenastanser9801]

@@HistoryCalling Yes , what happened with her two sons?

[@edithengel2284]

@@helenastanser9801 The older one married and became the ancestor of the Dukes of Somerset. The younger one also married, but had no children, dying at the relatively young age of 38.

[@theresalaux5655]

Thanks!

[@HistoryCalling]

OH WOW! Thank you very much Theresa for such a generous donation to the channel. I'm glad you enjoyed hearing all about Lady Katherine. :-)

[@maryellencook9528]

Well, as we say here in Texas, "You can't fix stupid, even with duct tape."

[@tarbhnathrac]

As they say elsewhere ... Actually, you can fix stupid ... but it's gonna hurt.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, I've never heard either of those phrases but I'll try to remember them and use them going forwards.

[@maryellencook9528]

@tarbhnathrac Well, in nursing, we would also say, "You can't fix stupid, but you CAN sedate it." Although, after much thought and a night's sleep, maybe you can fix stupid with duct tape if you wrap up the moron studying to be an idiot in it, especially over their mouth. 🤔🤭🤪

[@whatsupdoc1075]

@@maryellencook9528 In GA we say that you can only fix stupid with a 2x4!

[@maryellencook9528]

@@whatsupdoc1075 That'll do!

[@theresalaux5655]

Yes Katherine made a lot of stupid mistakes but man o man Queen Elizabeth could be a witch at times.😮 Thank you for an awesome video again.

[@HistoryCalling]

You are so welcome :-)

[@lesleystephenson1868]

I hold Katherine 100% responsible for what happened. Jane was made a pawn, and Katherine just didn't take that lesson to heart. As you said, Elizabeth snubbed Katherine with her court appointment, and common sense seemed to skip the Grey family altogether. I read Henry VIII didn't like Henry Grey because he was stupid. Jane may have been quite educated, but she lacked common sense since she was writing letters encouraging her supporters after Mary had her imprisoned. That's definitely not a smart decision, and Katherine's lack of intelligence followed the family line. She poked the bear again and again, and then seemed surprised that she was punished.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, just not a terribly bright family in many ways. The youngest sister Mary married in secret too and also ended up imprisoned. Just so stupid!

[@edithengel2284]

As far as I am aware Jane wrote no letters encouraging supporters during her imprisonment. The only letter that even remotely might be put in this category (and it's not certain that she actually wrote it) is a letter eviscerating a former chaplain of hers who converted back to Catholicism. Not enough evidence survives of her activities that weren't a part of someone else's plans to judge how much common sense she had, but she certainly had moral sense. Katherine was different kettle of fish. She had a very exalted idea of her appropriate position at court, but unfortunately lacked the practical sense which might have helped her support it. She never learned the name of the priest who conducted the marriage; lost the paper, amounting to a will, which her husband had given her; gossiped freely to the Spanish ambassador about her grievances with the queen; and tried, in the late stages of pregnancy to fool her first husband into remarrying her. Why she thought she could compete with someone like Elizabeth is a mystery. Jane would never have been a party to this kind of behavior--but if she had been she certainly would have carried it off better. The one thing they might have had in common was underestimating the daughters of Henry VIII.

[@redemptivepete]

Self indulgent and irresponsible. The attempt to fool her first husband into resuming their relationship was especially despicable. There was no 'option' for a royal to become a private citizen in 16th century England.

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. I suppose she was desperate, but did she really think she was going to be able to pass off a pregnancy that far advanced on him? I guess she really didn't understand much about the birds and the bees.

[@jeanettenatoli1672]

Fascinating. Absolutely brilliant breakdown beginning to end. Loved every moment.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you so much :-)

[@Astro-uc1pi]

Ouuu I absolutely love your longer videos! I literally have my pop corn and crush soda ready🍿. Thank you for your hard work :)

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you. Enjoy (the food and the entertainment that is). :-)

[@docplec]

I visited the ruins of Bradgate hall on several occasions and saw a museum there about Lady Jane Gray but the story of Katherine Gray is totally new to me. Thank you for enlightening me!

[@emmajulian8716]

Thank you for doing a video on Katherine grey im sort off addicted to tudor history 😂 i personally think after reading and watching everything I can about the 3 grey sisters that poor Katherine was young silly and frightened as Elizabeth 1st knew Katherine had a claim to the throne plus she seen what happened to poor Jane Keep the videos coming 😊

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Emma. Yes, I think we can put some of her errors down to youth, but she was very silly in many cases as well. Getting pregnant a second time beggars belief for instance. Still, it was a sad end and I wouldn't have wished it on her.

[@emmajulian8716]

@@HistoryCalling yes I definitely agree the 1st pregnancy was sort of understandable as she wasn't in the tower but pregnancy 2 yes was very stupid as by this time she was in the tower of london but we can't just blame her the the guard should of taken his job seriously and not let Katherine's husband into her room

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, that guard was an absolute idiot as well. Talk about messing up on the job.

[@stacegageTWDfan]

I always enjoy the history of this whole family. And all of the branches that come off that family tree. I’m curious- is she a relative of The Grays that were Elizabeth Woodville’s in laws and first husband?

[@edithengel2284]

She is Elizabeth Woodville's great great granddaughter by Sir John Grey, as well as Elizabeth's great great granddaughter by Edward IV.

[@IMBlakeley]

I think I agree with you Katherine was really stupid,talk about poking the bear... Elizabeth famously had a temper and could get in a right strop.

[@csh43166]

Poking the bear is exactly what she did - perfect adage for the situation.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, this was not a smart marriage and to get pregnant a second time! *eye roll*

[@ErinH-430]

I wonder where Elizabeth got her temper from. 🤷‍♀️🙄

[@leeprosser4682]

If I was Elizabeth I, who was every day navigating court intrigue, trying to keep her head on her shoulders and rule the country. I’d be looking at Katherine’s actions and thinking “there’s no way I can leave the future of my people in this girls hands”. From what’s been discussed here, Katherine does not seems to be cut out for any kind of a leadership role

[@amisvega9756]

What a drama! I did not know her story. In view of the facts, I completely agree with you. That’s what arrogance does to people. Had she been a humble servant of the queen, who knows, maybe history would be much different now. Thank you for another excellent video. 👏

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. Yes, I think she and Hertford really didn't think through what they were doing and I don't understand how they thought it would magically all work out, given who they were dealing with and the times in which they were living.

[@ileanaacacostaacosta1813]

Yes I agree with you that Katherine had too much arrogance for her own good she should have been more humble more canny and maybe something good for her would have come of it She was lucky that Elizabeth was not a psycho killer like her dad they is why she and her sons and survived at least she died in her bed and her kids grew up and lived their lives and married and had their own kids and left a lot of descendants

[@ben_1017a]

I am with you - she took no responsibility for her actions nor did she think of the consequences. Yes somewhat tragic, but also very self-inflicted.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, that just about sums her up.

[@VickiSenn]

Love your channel. I found it about a month ago and have been binge watching. 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲

[@faytsampouri6197]

Perfect..as always History Calling ❤❤❤

[@2007VolkswagenJetta]

Those girls should have been protected. Especially Jane, Mary should have kept her safe despite Phillip being “scared” of coming to England

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I agree that the treatment of Jane was utterly horrific. There's no excusing it, no matter what anyone says. Elizabeth showed that it was possible to have two Grey girls alive in the realm (with one even married with children). Killing them wasn't necessary.

[@edithengel2284]

@@HistoryCalling Although neither of the junior Grey daughters had actually claimed to be queen or had an army put in the field in her name to defend her claim. Jane's treason (if it was such, depending on how you view the legality of Edward's devise) was far more serious than an unapproved marriage.

[@RobertoGonzalez-b7q6p]

YOUR SUMMARY OF LADY CATHERINE GREY’S LACK OF COMMON SENSE WAS EXCELLENT!

[@russwriter17]

You forgot to mention that she is descended from one of Elizabeth Woodville's sons, from her first marriage to John Grey and she is also a descendant of Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Elizabeth's mum.

[@azurereloaded]

I'm a couple days late but this is a wonderful video to have on in the background while I work on my measured drawings! :) Keep it up!!

[@Claire_T]

Funnily enough, I've just started reading Lady Jane Grey's book by Eric Ives, such a tragic family 😕

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh, good book and one which I also looked at whilst writing this script. He was an excellent historian. Enjoy :-)

[@stephencarrillo5905]

Great book!

[@Claire_T]

@@HistoryCalling Thanks! I enjoyed his book on Anne Boleyn too

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Ha! I'm re-reading it now. I've made it to the "Thirteen Days" part. The Grey sisters are my favourite historical figures. I find them really endearing.

[@Sattva468]

The childhood portrait is so sweet. With a young daughter myself I recognize that hand reaching for mama’s milk and comfort!❤

[@Chezzy_Cherry]

Yes, it made me smile too

[@HistoryCalling]

It really is :-)

[@idgriffin56]

Fabulous presentation!!! Thank you.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome :-)

[@andrewfisk5100]

I think you are absolutely spot on. I cannot get over their reckless stupidity, and Katherine's younger sister Mary did the same thing, albeit without the pregnancies. The Grey girls must have inherited their impetuous nature from their grandmother Mary Tudor queen of france.

[@edithengel2284]

Mary had much better reason than the Grey sisters to believe that she and Brandon would be forgiven their marriage. My own feeling is that they got it from their father, whose ill judgment cost Jane her life.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, that whole branch of the family had a habit of leaping without looking and it rarely worked out well for them. Even the Brandons ended up saddled with huge debts as a result of their illicit marriage.

[@SarahLovesU2]

Great video! Love your opinion at the end - so scathingly honest. I completely agree with all your thoughts. Katherine blatantly ignored the facts that lead to her doom.

[@areiaaphrodite]

The saddest thing about the Grey sisters was that because they were all so close to the throne, they all suffered very tragic lives for it despite none of them even wanting it.

[@edithengel2284]

I don't know that Katherine didn't want it, although she would have been a terrible ruler. The other two sisters probably didn't have ambitions for the throne., I agree.

[@areiaaphrodite]

@@edithengel2284 I don't think Katherine ever expressed sentiment or even made any moves to try to take the throne. There was a plot to put her on it, but like Jane, she had nothing to do with it.

[@HistoryCalling]

Like Edith I don't think Katherine would have turned the crown down, but equally I don't think she was after it in the way her father was (on behalf of her sister).

[@patrickwelch7168]

WOW!!! This video is absolutely chock full of so much information 🎉 I loved it. Thanks for the hard work. 🎉 As for "blame"... I can't believe how mind-bogglingly stupid Katherine was!!! Her entire family had horrible judgement. I'm surprised she didn't bring down more people around her! Queen Elizabeth had far more patience with Katherine than she'd had with most (or any?) of her rivals. Anyhow... I watched this video twice and I'm sure I will be enjoying it a third time. Cheers my friend 👸

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Patrick. It was a lot of work, so it's always to know it's appreciated and enjoyed. Yes, those Greys weren't the smartest on the whole sadly.

[@bluerabbit7683]

Excited for this one!! I don’t know very much about Katherine outside of Jane’s direct story. Her namesake certainly couldn’t have given her any extra luck.

[@HistoryCalling]

Hope you enjoyed it :-)

[@Lionstar16]

You honestly want to shake Katherine and shout, "WHAT. WERE. YOU. THINKING?!"

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. It was such a waste. Just a few smarter decisions and she could have had a much happier life.

[@perniciouspete4986]

Ditto for Katherine Howard.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I'd want to do the same, but at the same time, I'd be laughing and giving her a hug. It's extremely rare for me to find someone who lived so long ago entertaining, but she was legit funny. I never thought I'd feel such... warmth towards people living 500 years ago. I usually feel some barrier, some distant feeling of respect, but the Grey sisters' story really felt touching to me.

[@marvwatkins7029]

Ms. Weston certainly is an ace on researching historical documents and literature.

[@ennanitsua]

As always, you're incredibly convincing, HC! I felt more pity toward Katherine earlier in the video, but as her foolish decisions mounted and you laid out the reality of Elizabeth's position, I came around. We obviously can't know their personalities, but I wonder if her early experience of such family tragedy gave her a devil-may-care attitude that served her so poorly.

[@HistoryCalling]

It would be interesting to be able to talk to her at certain points in her life, especially before her marriage to Hertford and find out if she really was as silly as her decisions make her seem and if her legal position as heiress presumptive (and the limitations it placed on her) had been fully explained to her.

[@hayekfriedman9078]

Love this. Just the facts, well researched, no "woking" and revising of history.

[@jenniferwaddell8]

I've been interested in Tudor history for over 20 years (I read a YA novel about Anne Boleyn) and this is all new information! Thank you for this video!

[@gabrielleschiavo9078]

The lack of common sense in some people, not just Katherine and her husband, really astounds me pretty much daily.

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. You see it all through history and in modern times too. People just don't think.

[@stephencarrillo5905]

This was painful to watch, HC. It reminded me of watching horror movies as a kid and yelling, "NO, you idiot! Don't go into the cellar!!!" Still, it's obvious you researched this thoroughly and your presentation is, as usual, excellent. 👍🙏🏼

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you so much for the donation Stephen. Haha, I'm not sure 'horror movie' was what I was going for here, but as long as it was enjoyable for you, I don't mind what it reminds you of :-)

[@stephencarrillo5905]

@@HistoryCalling 😆😉It's just how my twisted mind works.

[@hayekfriedman9078]

"Family killing monster"! So apt.

[@Chezzy_Cherry]

I know love can make you do crazy things but we all know that in those times it wasn’t your choice whom you could love and you can be assured the whispers would’ve reached the whole court that Elizabeth1st wanted nothing more than to have her happy ending so for Lady Kathrine to throw caution to the wind is a literal challenge towards Elizabeth1st and that’s aside from the genuine family tree threat of taking the throne. I get it, I do but the main thing I’ve always thought with her story is that she willingly brought her boys into a possible death sentence. That is what shocks me more.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, had she been more like Elizabeth she never would have let her heart rule her head like that and getting pregnant a second time was insane. She (and her husband) might as well have slapped the Queen in the face.

[@annmoore6678]

I was not familiar with the story of the Greys who survived into Elizabeth's reign, but I have to agree with your interpretation of what happened to Katherine. It doesn't appear that she ever had enough support to stake a successful claim to the throne, but that could have changed if her political skills had been as good as Elizabeth's. Thank you for a very interesting story.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it's interesting to wonder how someone with Elizabeth's skills would have handled herself in Katherine's position; much better than the real Katherine did I imagine.

[@deadiemeyers1661]

It would be interesting to know more about her two sons. A very basic search for them suggests that the current monarch of Great Britain, Charles III is a descendant of Lady Katherine through his grandmother Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. Is that accurate? Many thanks for another compelling overview of a complicated family.

[@edithengel2284]

It's true (if you mean Charles III and not II). Katherine's younger son Thomas had no children, but the older boy, Edward married and had six children. The Queen Mother descends from him via his son, William Seymour, 2nd Duke of Somerset. His great great granddaughter married into the Cavendish-Bentincks, who were ancestors of the Queen Mother's mother, Cecilia (Cavendish-Bentinck) Bowes-Lyon, Countess of Strathmore and KInghorne.

[@deadiemeyers1661]

@@edithengel2284 Thanks for sharing your your knowledge, and for catching my typo. I have corrected it.

[@susanr3055]

😅😅

[@HistoryCalling]

Edith has very helpfully covered this for me, so I'll not add anything to her answer :-)

[@edithengel2284]

@@HistoryCalling Sorry. Genealogy is unfortunately a mild obsession for me. And it happens that the first book I ever bought with my own one was Two Tudor Portraits by Hester W. Chapman. The subjects were the Earl of Surrey and Katherine, so I am probably overly attached to her.

[@joannabaparileszczynska]

If the Grey’s lacked common sense, then the Seymour’s were scummy

[@HistoryCalling]

Yeah, the combination of those genes maybe wasn't too great! :-)

[@ludovica8221]

Thanks for using the *correct* English pronunciation ("Beechum") for Beauchamp

[@HistoryCalling]

I went back and forth though on whether I should use French or English pronunciation. Honestly, pronunciation of certain words (esp. names) is the bane of my existence in these videos sometimes :-)

[@ludovica8221]

@@HistoryCalling It is always English in England. We have always resisted spelling changes as ignorant (and inconvenient in legality of multi-generational documentation in the land-owning branches/armigerous branches), but merrily butchered pronunciation from 1066 to the present day, hence "Beechum" = Beauchamp "Wargrave"= Waldegrave "Chumley"=Cholmondeley "Marshbanks"=Marjoribanks "Riven"=Ruthven "Chainey"= Chenevix *and* Cheyne "Coburn"=Cockburn "Fanshaw"=Fetherstonhaugh "Reethslee" =Wriothesley "Loosen Gore"= Leveson-Gower "Car"= Kerr and Ker "Nolls"= Knollys" and on and on and on, I can do this literally for hours (Colquhoun, Dalziel, St John, Fiennes, Geoghegan, Belvoir/Belvois &c &c) Some non landowning branches have embraced simplified spellings over the centuries, which is how we have "Beecham" Pharmaceuticals etc A good example of international variations the town of *Beaulieu*-sur Mer "Boh-lyuh " in France Elvis's wife Priscilla *Beaulieu* ""Bowl-you" in USA *Beaulieu* Motor Museum "Bewlee" in England It doesnt have to make sense when you have "owned it and made it your own" for a thousand years, . Sorry!

[@neilbuckley1613]

@@ludovica8221 English pronunciation of names like Beaulieu may well be a survival ofNorman-French pronunciation witness the Welsh for Beaumarais which is Biwmaris, pronounced boomaris.

[@ludovica8221]

@@neilbuckley1613 I think the English have always derived a certain amount of glee from pronouncing words of foreign origin as barbarously as possible!

[@irtnyc]

15000 is indeed an incredible sum in this era. What is the largest record fine by a Tudor monarch? Ignoring attainders, or the value of forcible wardships a la Oxford and Southampton.

[@MildredSunni]

Isn’t easy to judge people when you are not even there.

[@tykat12]

Not at all like what happened with poor "Queen" Jane. Katherine seemed intentionally treasonous, and that's legally what her and hubby's actions were-Treason! That Elizabeth left them alive is honestly rather surprising, given Katherine seemed to be doing all she could to threaten her or set her son up as her successor.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, they were incredibly stupid and as harsh as some people think Elizabeth was with them, she could have done far worse. Richard III might well have had those little boys killed if this had happened during his lifetime (now covering my ears to block out the screams of rage from the Ricardians).

[@Fairyfink]

Those who sympathise with Lady K must be lying down in a darkened room, sobbing softly into their pillows. Magnificent!

[@Rainbow_HH1]

It’s such a tragedy what happened to her

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it was a very sad life and such a waste. She was arguably her own worst enemy at times though, but you can let me know what you think about that at the end of the video :-)

[@arsenicmarshmallow1692]

I can't believe she did that!! Kathrine, I mean. You really would think she would have seen the writing on the wall when her sister died the same way!!

[@HistoryCalling]

I know and if you think her actions were mad, bear in mind that her sister Mary then did the same thing, except she didn't get pregnant.

[@maryannpshock955]

Wow...there were a lot of factors at play in this drama! Katherine was very willful. I think that she didn't believe that Elizabeth would kill her due to her actions, but she didn't realize that there are fates worse than death... She sounds very selfish to me. It is a shame that she couldn't marry for love, but she cared not for rules. Tragic story.

[@HistoryCalling]

I'd love to be able to ask her, right before the wedding 'so what do you think the Queen is going to do when she finds out?' and just see if the pair of them had really considered the consequences of their actions.

[@AprilBird4]

Oh! I really LOVE your account of her life & your opinions at the end!! I enjoyed "The Last Tudor" by P. G. And while Katherine makes a great tragic figure for a fiction novel, I still found myself shaking my head at almost EVERY move she made! I much preferred her sister Mary's character (which is almost completely fiction). Katherine was just too foolish for me & your account shows she was actually more foolish in real life.

[@carlylewis7088]

This video really made me think about how insecure Elizabeth must have felt throughout her reign due to her illegitimacy. What an insanely stupid thing Henry viii did there, making it possible for his daughter to inherit but not having her legitimised, and therefore open to legal challenges to her rule.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I agree. He left her in quite the quagmire. It always surprised me a little that she didn't have herself declared legitimate as Mary did, but then again I think she just didn't want to drawn attention to the whole mess.

[@slytheringingerwitch]

I love the fact that even though I thought I knew all about the Tudor period and the like, that there is always more to learn about. It shows me that instead of remakes of the same history, refashioned for a new audience that sometimes there are 'lost people' whose lives would be much more interesting.

[@nassauguy48]

Elizabeth never forgot that the Greys convinced Edward to disinherit not just Mary, but her as well. She also had another reason to resent Jane. Their tutors made it clear that while Elizabeth was a brilliant student, Jane was pure genius. Finally, Elizabeth really had a negative attitude toward marriage and resented people, especially women, who were in happy unions. That law forbidding people at court from marrying without the permission of the monarch should never have been used against Katherine. The latter was never really in line to the throne, and that rule only applied to the monarch's immediate relatives such as siblings and offspring.

[@edithengel2284]

Katherine was most definitely in line for the throne. She was the chief heir of Mary Tudor Brandon's line, the one selected in Henry VIII's will to succeed if Elizabeth died without heirs. She was considered a princess of the blood royal. Even lesser folk at court had to apply to Elizabeth for permission to marry; certainly the next heir to the throne by Henry's Will would have to. The rule applied to all close heirs no matter the relationship. Elizabeth did not like marriages among her courtiers because she resented good marriages, but because she did not like the feeling that it distracted attention from devotion to herself. Not a more admirable motivation, but there it is. She had several ladies who had loving marriages, and she did help celebrate the marriages of her courtiers and their children when permission was sought and given. It was really the Seymours and not primarily the Greys who either convinced or encouraged Edward to disinherit his sisters. Her scholastic competition with Jane, if there was one, was probably of little importance to her by this time, I suspect.

[@neilbuckley1613]

@@edithengel2284 I think it was John Dudley rather than the Seymours persuaded Edward to disinherit the Tudor princesses as his son Guilford was married to Jane Grey.

[@edithengel2284]

@@neilbuckley1613 You are correct!

[@HistoryCalling]

Hmm, what's the primary source for an academic competition between Jane and Elizabeth? They were both excellent students, but they didn't live together all that long and I don't remember ever reading that they were in competition against one another. Also, during her lifetime Katherine was the heiress presumptive to the throne under the terms of the will of Henry VIII (which was also the document Elizabeth relied on for her claim, having been declared illegitimate). She absolutely shouldn't have married without permission. It would have been no different to Elizabeth doing something very rash like that during Mary I's reign.

[@philip2595]

Thank you for another fine presentation HC, always enjoyed. As usual I would have to agree with your summation. Under the circumstances it's very difficult not to feel Lady Katherine seems to have behaved quite the fool.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Philip. Yes, some of her life choices really beggar belief and the husband was no wiser.

[@Pear-zo4em]

Really interesting thank-you.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome :-)

[@ErinH-430]

What is interesting is her sister, daughter, and granddaughter did the exact same thing with another claimant to the throne through Margaret Tudor. And Elizabeth II is descended from Katherine Grey through her mother. So her descendants are now the ones on the throne. But look at her ancestresses. Many did the same. Katherine may have thought it was worth the gamble. Damned if you do. Damned if you don’t.

[@sarahkoch7694]

I was unaware that Elizabeth had ever considered actually marrying Dudley. I know they were very close (I believe they even shared the same birthdate?), but did she in fact talk to her ministers about wedding him? Well, could be I just need to go back and look at your episodes about Elizabeth I. That will be a pleasure. Thank you for another highly engaging episode!

[@HistoryCalling]

I'd need to check the details too. They certainly made it plain to her that marrying him wasn't a good idea, but I don't know that she actually went to them to ask about it, as opposed to them voicing their concerns to her of their own volition when they could see that she had feelings for him and his wife had just died under very fishy circumstances.

[@tasogarehime]

I'm going to keep this in mind the next time someone tells me "It is better to beg for forgiveness, than ask for permission."

[@HistoryCalling]

Yeah, that's really not a very smart adage in a lot of situations, esp. when dealing with a Tudor! :-)

[@czahnie]

The basis for Phillipa Gregory’s The Last Tudor.

[@racheloldridge4986]

I think she was clearly not very clever - however, where would acting more cleverly have got her? When was Elizabeth ever going to let her marry and have children? I can see her deciding to to risk everything on the mere hope of forgiveness, when acting cautiously was going nowhere.

[@maryannpshock955]

I agree with you, Rachel! She was reckless but figured she might be pardoned. Not a deep thinker, because she didn't act very contrite.

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh I agree that I don't think Elizabeth would have let her wed, but at least she would have been free. Her sister Mary was just as silly. She contracted a clandestine marriage too and she was also locked up for her trouble, as was her husband.

[@edithengel2284]

I wish I thought that Katherine had looked down the road and thought if she didn't marry without permission, she'd never be allowed to marry, and that her decision to marry Edward in secret was a considered one. But I don't think it was. I think she just fell in love and was going to marry Edward, and that was that. Most people praise Anne of Cleves for being sensible and accepting Henry's terms, which basically amounted to an enlarged form of luxurious house arrest, with no possibility of having a husband and children. (People don't seem to wonder how much that might have pained her.) It seems odd in a way to praise Katherine for rejecting what I imagine would have been much the same terms that Elizabeth might tacitly have offered her (living freely at court under close surveillance), and thus bringing on herself the misery that she could have avoided by accepting them.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I see her marriage as more of an act of desperation than any defiance. And truth be told, there was an epidemic of secret marriages at Elizabeth's court. Even her BFF Robert Dudley married Lettice Knollys in secret. I think that speaks volumes: when your best friend doesn't tell you he's getting married, there's something clearly wrong with you.

[@edithengel2284]

@@octavianpopescu4776 To be fair, Elizabeth's BFF had made a career of telling her that he wanted to marry her, and of showing her every sign of romantic attachment. It was perhaps understandably from her point of view an act of betrayal for him to marry elsewhere after all that, especially when the bride was her cousin Lettice, whom she did not like. But it was also selfish of her to demand even implicitly that he remain single when she knew he must have wanted to start a family of his own.

[@karengilchrist9774]

I totally agree with your interpretation of this situation.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Karen :-)

[@sarahkoch7694]

PS: I just want to add that I think your unsentimental assessment of Katherine's and her husband's responsibility for their ultimate outcomes is perfectly reasonable. If I had been related to or a friend of either of these two, I imagine I'd have gotten so fed up with them and their harebrained actions that I'd have ultimately separated myself from them as they plotted their own flaming demise.

[@HistoryCalling]

I think you'd have been wise to do so. Being around these two probably left one at serious risk of being collateral damage.

[@BarbaraJV1]

I found this video very interesting. We always concentrate on the most famous figures in history but not the ones who are not so famous. It is a tragic "love story" gone very wrong and I did feel during the story really sorry for Katherine and felt she was wronged throughout this story - However, your final explanation made complete sense about the political consequences of the time. It's always good to hear two sides to a story so you can empathise and understand. Thank you for this. Fantastic work as always

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Fun fact: Did you know, the first Orphan in America was founded in 1729 Ursuline nuns in Natchez, Mississippithis Was the first Orphanage in North America. It was established to care for white children who were orphaned after a conflict between Indian and white.

[@HistoryCalling]

No, but I feel very sorry for the children. Orphanages were rarely good places to be in any time period or place.

[@Desert-Father]

Elizabeth was an incredibly cruel queen, truly her father's daughter.

[@annalisette5897]

It is too bad there wasn't an option for Katherine to renounce any claims to the throne for her and her offspring. After which she and her husband could have lived as commoners on the Continent or something. Unfortunately, anyone in the family could potentially become the kernel to foment a coup or uprising.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it is sad that that wasn't an option, but at the same time I don't know that she would have wanted to take it. Very few people in history ever renounce their claims on a throne. I think she just naively hoped she could have it all.

[@ludovica8221]

To renounce one's claim to the throne would be perceived as a dereliction of duty to one's parents/family and even worse, to the destiny set out for you by God. I doubt even entering a convent for the rest of your life would be regarded as sufficient penance for denying the fate you were born to. They were taught to submit absolutely to God's will

[@gillsinclair6927]

Confession: i know bext to nothing about this Katherine Grey. I think most know about Jane but her sister is a mystery. Thanks for this video.

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah, you're going to enjoy this then. It's quite a story.

[@gillsinclair6927]

@@HistoryCalling it's fascinating and I'm not done watching yet

[@hs5167]

I think the people of England viewed Mary as a legitimate heir (despite Henry’s divorce) behind Edward so she could be nice to other potential heirs. For Elizabeth it was different, because many didn’t view Anne Boleyn as a true Queen and therefore Elizabeth was illegitimate. Elizabeth couldn’t afford to play nice.

[@edithengel2284]

On the other hand, Mary had Jane Grey executed, while Elizabeth merely confined Katherine to the Tower, and then to house arrest.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, Katherine really put Elizabeth in a very tricky situation.

[@jmarie9997]

​@@edithengel2284 I read that Mary Tudor wanted to pardon Jane Grey, but her future husband, Philip of Spain wouldn't marry her until Jane was dead. Also, Jane's father (another idiot) started another rebellion.

[@edithengel2284]

@@jmarie9997 Yes, Jane's father's ill-advised rebellion really was the last straw as far as poor Mary (and her future husband) was concerned.

[@catharineholton49]

I think Elizabeth showed astounding mercy with katherine , given the precarious position she herself was in. She wasnt allowed to be with her husband, but she had one of her sons with her, and wasnt exactly confined in the tower. I think Elizabeth 1st was incredible merciful she only executed Mary of Scots after countless betrayals. She didn'😂t like the precedent of spilling royal blood, but was aware that these people could be , and were, used by unscrupulous enemies to usurp her own position on the throne. Elizabeth grey was her own worst enemy, instead if keeping her head down below the parapet and living peacefully and safely, she recklessly, stupidly, and rather arrogantly ignored royal commands despite expert warnings and dire past examples. It's as if she had a blind and fatal deathwish. Her sister Jane , I always had sympathy for, but Elizabeth had more control over her own destiny, but , like Mary queen of Scots, she messed up big time! Both of them were morally weak and politically feeble minded.

[@catharineholton49]

I typed Elizabeth instead of Katherine a couple of times there. Apologies. And a laughing emoji in error. Got a bit carried away typing!

[@maryloumawson6006]

Well, I'm with you. But I must confess to feeling sorry for Katherine, until you laid out what Elizabeth was up against! I had not considered that holding the throne was literally life and death to Elizabeth, and being a woman, she could not afford to be lenient, or she'd have been dealing with a lot more threats. It makes me wonder if all those involved would have been cognizant of the political intrigue they were engaging in? Still, even if the young couple were heedless of the danger their union put Elizabeth in, at first, they would have been fully aware, (just guessing, but really!) by the time of that risky conjugal visit! It's truly hard to fathom being so dense and reckless. But, it does make me wonder where Katherine could have married with the permission of the Crown? Wouldn't her offspring pose a danger, whomever the father was? I had always assumed marriageable relations of the crown were considered political pawns and that losing the bargaining chip is what angered the monarchs when permission was not sought. But if the monarch is obliged to remove all rivals, it seems none of the cousins would be able to marry at all! Thanks for this excellent and extended video! I was elated when I saw the length. And I already can't wait to view it a second time!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Mary Lou. Yes, I agree that there's a real chance Elizabeth would never have let her marry, but at least she'd have been free. I think after what happened to her sister, Katherine must have known that her marriage had political implications and to get pregnant a second time beggars belief.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Here's the problem for this reasoning: it assumes Katherine was a real threat. Or it seems to me Elizabeth was paranoid seeing threats everywhere. She was explicitly told there was no plot by Cecil, but she still proceeded to persecute Katherine and Edward. I get that there were real threats to her power/life, but Katherine was never one. Elizabeth planned to marry Katherine to the Earl of Arran... a lunatic (the kind who thought the walls were listening). The Spanish wanted to kidnap Katherine to marry her to Don Carlos, son of Philip II... another lunatic (the kind who liked to torture animals and servants). I don't blame her for just wanting to live a normal life with a husband of her own choosing and not being a pawn in someone else's political games. She may have shortened her life, but at least, she lived on her own terms and I can't help but deeply respect that. She may not have made the best decisions, but she did choose the best husband, someone who kept fighting for her and their children decades after her death. The story of the Grey sisters really made me despise Elizabeth. She was a competent queen, fair enough, but an absolutely horrible human being, just like her father.

[@jmarie9997]

​@@octavianpopescu4776 Katherine, like Mary Queen of Scotland didn't have the brains to be a threat. But they were both symbols to be possibly used by others to remove Elizabeth and be put on the throne as a puppet.

[@od1452]

I agree with you. The pair seem like modern "Entitled " people who expect to get what they want without any issues . .. ..But they are so clueless that it is hard not to think they were just stupid.

[@emilien.]

Excellent analysis of this situation. Katherine and her fraudulently wedded husband were what might be called tragic idiots.

[@MichelleBruce-lo4oc]

Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing? I'm doing well and so is my cat Benjamin. In the next video in the future could you do Sir Thomas Moore. He was a man from the Tudor period. Have a great day see you next video 😊

[@HistoryCalling]

I'm good thank you. Yes, More is on my list. I even bought not one but two books on him recently :-)

[@MagikMoony616]

Considering Elizabeth's own tentative position on the throne, what she had seen her sister go through, and what had started in her name when she was heir, I would say Elizabeth acted with REMARKABLE restraint in her treatment of both Katherine and her husband. she allowed them to live, and allowed their children to not only live, but to remain with family. While we know that the brain doesn't fully mature until around 24-25, the complete lack of sense displayed by Katherine and Edward in a world where they had both seen many of their own family killed for even small acts that were viewed as a threat to the throne, while it would have been cruel, Elizabeth I would have been justified in having them executed, particularly after finding out that they repeatedly went against her orders to remain apart. While I've no doubt that the two loved one another, I would not be surprised if Edward Seymour's family also encouraged his affection for her even after the many warnings he had received to stay away - after all, with the Queen not having any explicitly named heirs and not being married, marrying the heir presumptive could have potentially paid off quite handsomely for the family, which may be why they were all perfectly happy to help the pair hide their union, and even aid them in sneaking around Elizabeth I's orders after they were imprisoned.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I actually think Elizabeth's actions were restrained for the time period. Has she been Richard III, she likely would have had the boys killed (not an opinion which will go down well with the Ricardians I know, but it's my opinion that he had his nephews killed).

[@neilbuckley1613]

@@HistoryCalling The outrage caused by Richard's actions could have led to future monarchs deciding that that was a dangerous precedent to follow. It might explain why Henry VII kept the Earl of Warwick alive as long as he did.

[@MagikMoony616]

@@HistoryCalling Honestly I think she was a far more cunning monarch than Richard III could have ever even hoped to be. She clearly recognized the threat that the Grey sisters, particularly when unified with the Seymours, presented to her reign, and also recognized that executing Katherine would have led to issues with the precise lords she was attempting to win over. By separating them in a more real way she prevented any further children, but because they were under house arrest in VERY comfortable conditions, she was able to present herself as a merciful monarch. As for Richard III and his nephews... I firmly agree on your assessment there (and I loved your video on the Princes in the Tower). I am of the belief that, had it been natural causes that the boys had died of, he would have said something, and a state funeral would have happened. Instead... well, as they say - the silence speaks volumes.

[@littlemiss_76]

I agree Kathrine's life was hers of her own making but at the same time, i do feel for her and her naivety. If her circumstances were different or she was born in a different time

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I pity her too, even if I think she was her own worst enemy at times.

[@ivettegutierreztorres3211]

I'm no history buff, but you've made it interesting, thank you

[@dianacryer]

Not listening to Robert Cecil is never a good idea. The guy knew what was up.

[@shanenolan5625]

Thank you

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. Hope you found the life of one of the lesser known Grey sisters interesting :-)

[@shanenolan5625]

@@HistoryCalling I'm only 6 mins in but it's interesting so far ,

[@catherineball5071]

I really want to see that letter!!

[@mjgbabydragonlet]

Interesting choice. Mayerling is my favorite ballet ever. Steven McRae and Sarah Lamb at Covent Garden. I was supposed to see his return to Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland last month but was too sick to travel. I was sad to not be able to use the tickets. It was not hard to find a family who longed to go. There is joy in that.

[@OkieJammer2736]

⚘ Thank you.

[@HistoryCalling]

No problem 😊

[@Stephanie-hr9mk]

Fascinating!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Stephanie :-)

[@62Osyrus]

You do an excellent job weaving these stories in an hour or less. I agree with you totally. Katherine should have known better than to wed without consent of the crown. Elizabeth had seen her mother and step mother executed and she knew how quickly the tide could change against her.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I don't know how you could be a member of the Tudor extended family, living in this era and knowing what had happened to your father, sister and brother-in-law and think that these kinds of actions would ever be overlooked.

[@vernon2542]

I think like you Katherine and Hertford are to blame for their own stupidity. I also don't believe Elizabeth was the harsh with them. As you said they didn't lose their heads. If Mary had still been queen she and her husband would have lost them. Thank you for another great video look forward to next weeks.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Vernon. Yes, Elizabeth (while not being very lenient with them) could have reacted far worse. At least she didn't kill them.

[@beastieber5028]

Good evening to history calling from Bea 🇬🇧

[@HistoryCalling]

Hi Bea :-)

[@LittleDogTobi]

8:43 “The result . . . was a triple child wedding.” 😢

[@HistoryCalling]

Yup, that's the 16th century for you.

[@joshuafess4295]

Anyone with a half ounce of common sense back then would’ve known it was not even worth a snowballs chance in hell in angering Elizabeth and hoping that’ll get better in the long term terrible and reckless gamble

[@shannenenen]

A middle-grade historical fiction about Jane was what sparked my love for British royal history, and I'm shocked that I still hadn't learned about Katherine! I agree that she made her own foolish choices. Still, there's enough of a starcrossed romance here that I can't help but want a heavily fictionalized version of her story to exist out there.

[@HistoryCalling]

I bet there must be some version of it somewhere. I can't guarantee it'll be good writing though.

[@sarahtyster7342]

great analysis of the reasons for Elizabeth's fear and her treatment of them. I think we are too used to not seeing this as a dynastic life and death / life OR death power play, which is what it all was.

[@AnnaAnna-uc2ff]

Thank you.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome! :-)

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Fun fact, too: Did you know the scene in James Cameron’s titanic where Jack is drawing rose is based off of a real life event ? Alexander 2 of Russia sometimesS sketched Katia(His mistress) In the nude.

[@HistoryCalling]

No, but that doesn't surprise me. There's not really any such thing as originality in the world.

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

When I first heard about that, I couldn’t stop thinking about that scene.

[@sekichdawn3913]

Yep, heard that one before! Fun fact, James was drawing Rose. Not Leo.

[@gothmamasylvia462]

Elizabeth showed great mercy in not executing Katherine, and all her cohorts. Katherine and the others acted stupidly, no doubt about it. If Katherine had gone to Elizabeth during her first pregnancy, and asked for mercy, Elizabeth would have been angry, but may have eventually forgiven Katherine. But Katherine just kept doing stupid things, and in the end, England is lucky to have not had her for a queen.

[@HistoryCalling]

It is an interesting 'what if' to think about if she had become Queen when Elizabeth had smallpox. I suspect she would have been under her husband's thumb.

[@tianathaxton7012]

I need this to be a movie