The Logistics Of The Dominion War

[@MM22966]

Perun: "DEFENSE LOGISTICSSS INNNNN SPAAAAACE!!!!"

[@blikizz9355]

star trek military logistics power point

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

_"You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics." - General Dwight D. Eisenhower._ Logistics are indeed a critical part of every military endeavor. And in the large expanses of space, they continue to do so in the Dominion War. Also, an odd accent there. But the slide format was neat. A nice review overall.

[@asokawhite]

Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (1980): "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." ADM Lynde D. McCormick, USN: "Logistics is all of war-making, except shooting the guns, releasing the bombs, and firing the torpedoes." Tom Peters - Rule #3: Leadership Is Confusing As Hell, Fast Company, March 2001: "Leaders win through logistics. Vision, sure. Strategy, yes. But when you go to war, you need to have both toilet paper and bullets at the right place at the right time. In other words, you must win through superior logistics."

[@chemputer]

The fact that I was half expecting that to just be an awkward intro for Perun is kinda funny to me. That'd definitely be an interesting collab.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

I'd be up for it.

[@Relav1364]

I am actually surprised at how many parallels there are between military logistical planning and network design....

[@dragonsword7370]

It does all boil down to shipping something from one place to another and trying to do so in a timed manner.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

Albert Speer fixed the German war economy in 1942 on using architectural planning to visualize the system.

[@MM22966]

LOts of things are like that in life: things at different scales look similar. A grain of sand, if you zoom down hard enough, will look a lot like a mountain. A runnel of sand at the beach looks a like like river delta, etc.

[@Relav1364]

@@MM22966 that's an excellent analogy. My compliments

[@davidponseigo8811]

Until you have been in combat and led troops and assets you will never truly understand.

[@keegobricks9734]

Hmm the way I always heard the saying was: "amateurs talk tactics" "experts talk strategies" "Masters talk logistics"

[@MM22966]

I think he worked it a bit to match the screenshots.

[@Yandarval]

Then there is Grand Strategy, as it used to be called.

[@luedog8385]

i am not an educated man, all i know how to do is fight. (Pancho Villa)

[@TheMajorActual]

The opening quote as I have heard it for 30+ years is, in full: _Amateurs talk Tactics. Professionals study Logistics. Flag Officers consider personnel policies._

[@nicolamarchbank1846]

Don't kid us dear Venom - I am a loyal follower of Perun from almost the start of his geo-strategic KZbin postings! His take on the logistics of an interstellar war would be epic. Unfair sir!

[@dawfydd]

I think Logistics episodes would be really cool to explore and really something Voyager should've done more often, set more of their character drama episodes during refueling and rearming, fixing shuttles, recovering pieces of shuttles that got squished. Perhaps even buying a ready made ship and converting it.. rather than just using it like Tom did in that episode. Delta flyer was cool, but after that it seemed like "right we have the new shuttle sets now lets not bother anymore" but they could've expanded to create something else. Man just imagine if they'd kept the Nova class ship they ran into, and created an under saucer attachment to keep it hooked close enough to voyager in order to keep high warp speeds up.. and could have episode story arcs where shuttles, voyager and the equinox all do different resupply missions, which can lead into another storyline, but since Trek was so episodic we missed many of those chances. I guess no writer wants to be like cool i get the resupply episode! lol

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

A bit like in battlestar galactica...

[@ChairmanMo]

It would have been nice to see Voyager get retrofitted with new weapons and so on over the course of their trip. Give it a Pimp My Ride kind of look.

[@weldonwin]

The irony of using Nog and O'Brian as examples of the Tactics VS Logistics adage, when Nog is the one who taught O'Brian all about the mysteries of the Great River and the Material Continuum

[@hmsverdun]

Thank you, logistics are one of those key things which seem to be missed out on in Star Trek wars. Although I know you hit on it in the other Dominion War episodes about the Dominion having an initial but shrinking advantage. I think one of the big things that is missed is that the federation capability for transfering into a war economy is underestimated even by the augments and is a key part of the victory. Yes Earth, Tellar, Vulcan, Andoria and so on are paradises but you see places like Betazed fall? People start to realise that they need to contribute and do. I think within the canon the hit and run of the Breen attack on Earth actually hurts the Dominion because it reminds the people of those inner planets about the threat being real. This encourages them to redouble their efforts I also think in someways its not the loss of ships that is as significant to the Dominion Cardassian alliance at the end of Operation Return-although it hurts a lot so much as the fact that the supply lines from the Gamma Quadrant of materials are closed without this even with the Dominion building capacity they cant really win.

[@neilbodwell9172]

Excellent video. I worked in logistics for the US Army and this is pretty spot on as a quick education on logistics and how to make it work for any military force. For clarification I was not a logistics officer. I just happened to be an officer in those units and we were short handed and some things need to be done by officers so I had to learn on the fly.

[@johnm9126]

I very much enjoy your videos. I’m a big logistics guy so I’m glad to have come across this video. People often overlook the logistics of war and how amazing it can be and sometimes turn the tide of a war. Lee up the great work.

[@davidponseigo8811]

As a Combat Security Contractor for oil companies and other similar companies we are private soldiers and how we supply and resupply is similar to the military but also different. We have more money to spend and our supply line moves faster than the military. We also follow different rules of engagement than the military.

[@TerrenceChilds-xz3xu]

This is another great video please keep them coming and think you so much

[@danscholl9972]

Outstanding video. These are such good points, stuff that a lot of writers miss. And they will still matter in the future, regardless of the genre or real-life fleets.

[@Marinealver]

24th Century Power Points ENGAGE!

[@tullyDT]

Thanks for answering my question

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

got there eventually

[@NardoVogt]

Crazy what that PowerPoint-wielding aussie had an impact on several KZbin content creators. Well done mate!

[@Krysnha]

Soldiers win battles, logistics win wars

[@darienevans6229]

a video about recruitment and training would be awesome.

[@TerranceChilds-ui8nh]

Wow another great video on the Dominican war series of yours I can't wait to see what you do after this I am eagerly to see what happens next

[@shanenolan5625]

It's true wars are won with logistics. Civilisation or society runs on logistics. Especially citys

[@adrianjorgensen3750]

A video on armed merchant cruisers of the Dominion War would be great. As would one on the Federation Alliances version of the Liberty Ship.

[@Aahmpower]

I can see many older ships being put out of mothballs and reserve fleets to form armed merchants, things like the oldest of the Miranda's and Constellations with their big hangars. Maybe Ptolemy's will be refitted or a new class would be made based on them to fit the niche?

[@samuelvine]

Video topic request: Could you explain the differences and similarities between Phaser Lances, Mega-Phasers, and regular Phasers? Thanks!

[@barriemclellan1423]

Like the Perun thing. Both in my top 3 subscription channels. I like detail.

[@stevenewman1393]

🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly well done and informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and form provided on the use of Logistics as used during war times and so forth and so on indeed, A job very wonderfully nicely well done as always Sir!👌.

[@AccessAccess]

Don't forget about the modular cargo vessels. Just from observing the designs, it seems like the Federation, Klingons, and Cardassians have at least one type of cargo vessel that is modular, essentially a vessel with a hull that is built around large containers that can be dropped off and retrieved as the ship moves down the supply line. Presumably they are both configurable and efficient in their operation, rather than having to dock and/or unload cargo using shuttles or the like, they can simply drop off a container at a supply base and move on, retrieving the empty container back up on it's return trip. The same goes when re-loading supplies at the beginning of it's journey, just drop off the empty containers and take on a bunch that are already filled by at the main supply station.

[@jeffhallam2004]

Such a great and detailed video as usual!

[@wedgeantillies66]

A very intriguing and compelling video on a little mentioned, but key facet behind the federations ability to eventually win the dominion war. As apart one episode on ds9 it never really gets shown how logistics are the sinews of war that enables a state to fight and win it.

[@braddl9442]

This part of sci fi is often overlooked. SHIPS in trek still use FUELS of some type. Replicators still need matter to configure to make food. Phasors need crystals and emitters, coils, Stem bolts. The replicators still need MATTER and MATERIALS to replicated things. And you can imagine some matter is easier to break down and convert then other matter. Lattinume for example cant be replicated.

[@markcastonguay7906]

The replicators should be reprocessing the same waste the the crew will put out while the putting in new "fuel" for the crew. That should provide a roughly equal about in and out making resupply for replicators if you can effectively cycle the mass in not important.

[@farshnuke]

The replicators do not need MATTER and MATERIALS to replicate things. You are just wrong there.

[@toddkes5890]

@@farshnuke We saw a cargo bay in TNG's 'True Q'. We saw in 'Quality of Life' that improving mining technology was a Federation science goal. We heard in 'Phantasms' that components were manufactured in a factory. We know that in DS9 that it was cheaper to trade for items from another star system than to contact a Federation officer and put in a replicator request. We heard that the Cardassians were mining strategic resources from Bajor. Matter and materials are used in Star Trek. If you try to convert energy into matter, then the energy has to come from somewhere. Assuming perfect efficiency, then to make an item massing 2 kilograms this will need 1 kilogram of matter and 1 kilogram of antimatter. That puts a major demand on a a ship's power supply.

[@lunatickoala]

@@farshnuke From DIS S3E12 "There is a Tide": "It’s made of our shit, you know. That’s the base material that we use in our replicators. We deconstruct it to the atomic level and then reform the atoms. It’s pretty good for shit, and we don’t have to commit atrocities for it." The replicators have to make stuff from something, otherwise it's magic and any pretense that it's science fiction goes right out the window. The most sensible explanation and one that they finally made canon is that it's a really good matter recycler, taking the matter from raw materials and waste and reforming it into something useful. The alternative explanation that was circulating in fandom is that they used matter synthesis from energy which has a few problems. First is that creating matter from energy produces particle-antiparticle pairs and most people don't want a bunch of uncontained antiparticles flying around. Second is that even the tiniest bit of inefficiency means that replicating a cup of Earl Grey would be equivalent to detonating a small nuclear weapon in the replicator. And third is that energy has to come from somewhere, meaning a reactor which then requires fuel, meaning you still need matter and materials. Unless there's a wizard producing energy from nothing but then we're back to not even pretending that the technobabble bullshit in Star Trek isn't magic.

[@farshnuke]

@@lunatickoala 1. They literally use anti matter in their engines. So the anti particles are just more fuel 2. Waste management is a problem, if you can recycle it to save energy that just makes sense. 3. I am sure it is more resource and time efficient to mine and have stored matter dense stuff but that doesn't mean they need to do it. It's like we can use metal cutlery and porcelain crockery as disposable cutlery and crockery but we don't because that's inefficient. 4. Your criticism that it can't be matter synthesis because that would be magic goes out the window when you consider that the pilot episodes of TOS (both of them) TNG, DS9 and Voyager all feature godlike aliens. You may not like that it's not hard scifi but the science so advanced it's magic to us is a core aspect of Star Trek.

[@stevenewman1393]

🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and format provided on the use of Logistics as being used during war times and so forth and so on indeed, A job very wonderfully nicely well done as always Sir!👌.

[@craigmorris4083]

I am not sure that this is long enough. Logistics is that important. thanks though, very informative. :)

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Alas I'm no perun.

[@johnn9977]

Great information!!

[@davidplowman6149]

I’m just going to say, the logistics of a 24th century empire the has a workforce of trillions, cloning facilities, and industrial replicators is as far beyond us as the late Bronze Age was to levee in mass of the early 19th century. The question is what really matters. Ship production? Crew manning? Strategic deployment? Or, in the extreme, commander competence and tactical deployment?

[@lunatickoala]

Starship numbers in Star Trek are very small given the sizes of the intergalactic powers. This suggests that the bottleneck is in the strategic materials needed to build starships. They may be able to recrystallize dilithium in the 24th century but it's still extremely rare and limits how many antimatter reactors can be built. Other exotic materials like the verterium cortinide used to make warp coils might also be very limited in supply. Starfleet does have personnel shortages but that's not from a lack of manpower. The absolute lowest reasonable estimate for the population of the Federation is two trillion (it's probably closer to 5-6T) and a very high estimate for the number of people needed to man all of the ships in Starfleet in the Dominion War is two million. Any shortage in personnel is due to self inflicted policies, and canon evidence does suggest that. A lot of Starfleet is negligent in their duty to defend the Federation. There's a substantial faction that insists they're not a military despite always fighting wars with someone. When there are a lot of officers who see combat exercises as a waste of time, there are going to be a lot of officers who suck at combat. We also know that Starfleet is ridiculously selective. Probably far more so than necessary. Starfleet essentially became an aristocratic class. While they did let some plebians in, most Starfleet officers are the children of Starfleet officers or VIPs. There was likely an incentive to keep it exclusive. But, they also didn't want a large excess of officers relative to the number of positions available on starships. People assigned to a starship tend to stay with the ship for a while. Thus, they didn't want for there to be a lot of officers just waiting around planetside for years or decades until a slot on a starship opens up. All interstellar powers have a shortage of ships and a surprising number have manpower issues because they've created an elite spacefaring class which limits the pool of people trained to serve on a starship.

[@brandonlordbaltimore5182]

Just going off memory, is the video thumbnail of a Karemman transport vessel? Now onto the video 🕳️💫

[@patricknakasone9376]

A frequent tactic used by governments is to subsidize the building/purchase of merchant ships to be able to be use as auxiliaries in wartime.

[@Aahmpower]

I can see many civilian owned craft being requested by the government, stuff like cruise liners would be great for troop movement. Government would approach civilian owners, enterprises or corporations with some kind of pressing into service ships & assets they see fit and necessary for the war effort. Remember Ezri's mom? Mining Companies and factory compounds would probably be placed under a quota program to meet X amount of certain resources being produced in Y Time

[@merafirewing6591]

I wonder if the Miranda-class and the Klingon Birds of Prey acted like old style escorts in a convoy whenever a Jem'Hadar Fighter groups attack in a wolf pack? Imagine if the Federation reintroduces the 23rd century cargo ships as to be mass produced despite being antiquated but still a very capable work horse in the logistics chain.

[@warwolf88]

this is an absolutely awesome video😊

[@tomb7942]

Star bases would solve most of these problems, especially if they had their own fleet of drone ships tooling around collecting resources like Deuterium. Ships training or resting or going through a shakedown, ships not needed at that moment in time. Purpose built ships to do the collecting, whatever. Spare parts would be stockpiled when things just started to get tense. I think in a zero scarcity society, supply wouldn't nearly the problem as it is to us.

[@vortega472]

When I think logistical nightmares, I think about Guadalcanal and the Tokyo Express - the Japanese Navy could never really resupply their forces on the island, and they could only move supplies and reinforcements by Destroyer and Submarines. So they were well-armed or had stealth - but that also meant they did not have the space to move the large amounts that were needed to support the Japanese troops on Guadalcanal. Logistics - if you don't have good people behind the scenes and a support system set you are going to lose. This is a good one.

[@nekophht]

The sad thing? Most of the IJN didn't really care about logistics. They didn't build up the supply auxiliaries needed for wartime, and by the start of the Pacific War had seized 30% of Japan's Merchant Marine as a result... which doesn't help with all the importing of stuff like oil and ore and food to Japan that said 30% of the MM is no longer doing. Planning didn't really bother taking into account what was possible with the logistics ships at times either, IIRC.

[@MM22966]

21:00 Sounds like the Federation needs to pay war-rates to those merchant skippers! Oh wait, they don't have money! Ha-ha!

[@jaredcolon4535]

Venom my friend ID be interested in a logistics follow up under the fleet deployment, we know at the start most of the federation fleet is not centralized a lot of ships off in deep space exploration and the secondary ships staying closer to home how long did it take to recall ships and had all been recalled?

[@trevynlane8094]

Dry dock and slip way space is another big limitation. If a starship loses a nacelle, it needs a dedicated repair facility to fix that.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

I'm going to do a video about what are or aren't drydocks because I'm realising that what we know is wrong.

[@nekophht]

Depends on how it loses the nacelle, I'd think. If the pylon itself is fine, then you'd just disconnect the wrecked nacelle and attach new nacelle. That wouldn't necessarily require dock or slip space to do. We might see repair ships (and/or "floating dry docks") become a thing during the Dominion War in order to handle repairs that aren't major enough to need dock space. Which would allow for forward support bases like Espiritu Santo and Ulithi were in the Pacific during WW2. Something like a three tier system for repairs - tier 1 is major damage that gets a ship sent back to a major yard for repairs, tier 2 is moderate damage that can be handled at a nearer shipyard, tier 3 is damage that can be handled at an advance base. I'd kinda point to the difference between getting repaired at Pearl and having to go to the West Coast for repairs as a difference between tier 1 and 2.

[@CiaranMaxwell]

@@nekophht The Galaxy, Nebula, and possibly even Miranda classes would be great for this. The Galaxy is so large, and its fuel tanks so massive, that using it as a warship is frankly a waste. How many Defiants could it top up? Having one Galaxy act as a mobile, self-defending logistics base for a Defiant squadron would massively improve the squadron's capabilities. The Defiant needs repair? Have you seen the size of the Galaxy's main shuttlebay? Keep some spare, logistics-oriented saucers at starbases. These saucers would strip out the amenities and laboratories in favor of a larger shuttlebay capable of holding a single Defiant, and use the rest as cargo space. (Enterprise-D was one-third unallocated space at launch. You might not even need to strip out anything, just move it around.) Once war is declared, swap out the peacetime saucer for the wartime saucer. Now you have a mobile logistics base that can fight at battlecruiser level. If war is never declared? Well, you have a gigantic, sublight-only cargo shuttle for the starbase with battlecruiser main guns. They'll find a use for it. The Nebula class's pods could be swapped out for various tasks. Sensor pod, weapons pod, why not an engineering or replicator pod? The Miranda has a similar design, albeit an old one. Why not?

[@jaredcolon4535]

Heros lift moral, patriotism lifts the civilian heart, logistics wins wars

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

bases are basically always Hub & Spoke as a system... though movable forward bases may form nodes or branches. the difference in a military is that the smaller hubs are very much a makeshift thing being constantly moved and set up as required. that is where the mobile docks and movable space-stations come into their own.

[@scpguy1381]

Unrelated but what’s your opinion on the Breen face reveal from discovery?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Don't mind it. It was one of the forms speculated. So yeah I don't really have a problem with it. Unfortunately you can't keep that a mystery forever.

[@andrwblood9162]

I remember I asked for this years ago. Not complaining, I'm just happy 😊

[@krim7]

Great video!

[@enterprise-h312]

Am I the only one who remembers the ships from FASA which could tow small space stations around, the tenders and the mobile shipyards? How exactly were the Klingons planning on laying siege to Cardassia Prime if Cardassian space was on the other side of the Federation? It's the same question that I have in regards to the Klingons sending a fleet into Breen space.

[@aaronsouthard8366]

The other thing about alot of little ships vs larger fewer ships. Those transport ships need fuel too

[@Gymbro_069]

i've heard in many of your dominion war vidoes that the cardassians have a lot more experence in actual warfare, could you make a video that breaks down what the cardassians and what the dominion taught each other during the dominion war.

[@marz2467]

Starfleet ships can all almost serve as logistic ships. Moving up and back from the front could move large amounts of logistic supplies.

[@birdmonster4586]

Tactics, Strategy and Logistics all sit at the same round table in war. Overall, I think logistics, particularly for Starfleet, are remarkably lighter than what most people would expect. Fuel, crew and components/materials that cannot be replicated are the main draws. Crew/personnel are obvious they need to be in the right places at the right time. Fuel (Antimatter, Dilithium and Deuterium) is again obvious, but I think it has an important difference in Star Trek. I agree that Dilithium isn't really a concern. Most Starfleet vessels probably finished the war with the same crystals they started with. With the advent of Replicators a lot of stuff can be replicated on ships. Not everything of course, but a lot of stuff. Starfleet has been building Long Range Exploratory starships for centuries by this point. So making vessels that are sustainable in adverse conditions is woven right through the design of any ship or component by this point. This eases logistics a lot. The downside to this is that replication requires a lot of energy and that will drain your fuel reserves more rapidly repairing battle damage with replicated hull plating. We see this with Voyager a bit with how conservative they had to be in the early years before they had adapted to their situation properly. Another thing is that smaller, shorter ranged ships might not have the facilities, either Larger replicators, or 'manual' fabrication facilities of larger ships that are needed to recover from that sort of damage easily. But this is actually not that bad a point. Since smaller ships will be operating with larger vessels/Facilities they'll be able to use them as surrogate facilities leading to formations that better sustain themselves, eg: A Galaxy class supplying a Sabre class with fresh parts. The initial thought that this is vampiric isn’t founded, since this is occurring within the same formation that is being resupplied. I’m not sure I agree with the idea that large fleet movements are particularly draining on logistics, just moving ships around isn’t that much of an effort. If anything, it’s basically normal business and I reiterate the long history of long range vessels leading to efficient low footprint vessels overall. The major logistical pain would be from any additions the fleet requires to complete their objective. But I think the weight of that would be fairly light. Ground troops for example can be bunked in the hundreds on small vessels for short trips to objectives. I think the Three main Logistical vessels are going to be the Olympic; performing the heavy logistical lifting. The Sydney-Type being a more mid-sized logistical vessel, but still capable of resupplying even larger vessels. I also see the Nova-Class in this role, modified with extra cargo space it would make for a decently armed mid-sized logistical runner and frontline logistical ship. Its main downside is its warp speed, but perhaps that was considered good enough, or was improved over time, probably both. Otherwise it’s a modern, easily built little ship that, in groups, can probably fend off some attacks from raiders pretty well. Finally the Aerie-class or Raven-Type. Now the Aerie is a small vessel, but it is modern, capable, flexible in design and dead easy to build in large numbers. It could be easily modified to serve as a cargo ship doing a lot of “Last mile” logistic stops, but even this small 90m long ship could hold thousands of tonnes of supplies or a company of troops if it was properly configured. As a reference point the Liberty ships of WW2 were about the same size by comparison and were able to carry over 500 troops, often into the thousands or around 10,000 tonnes of cargo. I don’t think it could refuel much, but otherwise it’s a very good choice.

[@farshnuke]

You know what would be a good supply ship for the fleets? A war time Galaxy Class. I remember reading somewhere that in the war they were basically just not installing the gymnasiums and stuff, so that's a lot of empty space that can be filled. Obviously they are too powerful to waste on transport duty but once those supplies hit the fleets it makes sense to fill up the Galaxys so they can supply the others as they go.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

I will say the Anti Dominion's Alliances biggest victory and I dare say most vital one was them being to remove the Wormhole from play by mining it's entrance as a Logistics Drop gate for the Dominion. without it the Dominion was forced to rely on their local allies for Logistic support and what they have brought/built with them already. People talk about the Dominion fleet waiting through that Wormhole but the real threat that would have cost them the war was the Dominion Logistics train also waiting for it to open.

[@Mr_Sovik]

Consuming one's deuterium supply to produce antimatter is not wasteful for the reason you suggest. Anti-matter is produced in matter-anti-matter pairs, which can collide to produce a specific amount of energy. The problem is that the energy released is equal to the energy used to create the pair, and because no generator is going to be 100% efficient, one will always end with less energy than at the beginning. Antimatter is useful as a dense energy source, and can only be practically produced from deuterium when the deuterium fuel tanks can be immediately refilled.

[@JimmyBlether]

Especially if, say, you park at a gas giant and repeatedly skim the upper atmosphere. There's gonna be plenty free deuterium mixed in with the regular hydrogen and helium, and as its a massive planet it may aswell be unlimited in supply.

[@FLAME4564]

hence why some ships in connie classes would have been re built and re commissioned as Tankers like the Ptolomy class supply Tanker.

[@nealsterling8151]

Whenever i see one of your videos i get that itch to play a decent Star Trek game, where you either design Star Trek ships, or command a ship and fly around... The problem is there is no such game, aside from Star Trek online, but that's just a theme park with a gigantic amount of grinding.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

There's bridge commander. The armada games and many mods but yeah I'm in agreement. I want something like mechwarrior online but starships

[@nealsterling8151]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 That woud be epic! Personally, i would be already happy with a 2D game like the old Starflight with a modernized Interface and a much more massive Galaxy. The thing is in the last 20 Years, Game developers predominantly make games where you either sit in a rather small ship (No mans Sky, Elite: Dangerous, etc.) or 4x games where the player is ultimately a politican.

[@enterprise-h312]

There used to be a game called "Star Trek: Starship Creator" and its sequel. I never played those titles so I can't speak to their quality. You supposedly could export ships created in said sequel to the game "Dominion Wars". I don't know if that is what you were looking for?

[@nealsterling8151]

@@enterprise-h312 I vaguely remember playing Starship Creator (maybe 20 or more years ago?). You could set up your ship and assign officers to it, but the ship would then execute missions on its own. Back then when the game dominon wars Game came out i remember reading that it wasn't that great, so i never touched it. But back then it wasn't a big thing because there where lots of Star Trek games on the market (Starfleet Academy, Starfleet Command series, Star Trek Armada I and II and so on.). The thing is most of these games are soley centered around space combat and very littel anything else. I just wonder why there is nowadays no Star Trek game that is set in a open world or Sandbox, where you start with a small ship (or even better build one!), you recruit a crew and start working your way through the ranks by doing various missions or by exploring the galaxy on your own, like a mix between "Star Trek online" and "no mans sky", with a little bit of "space engineers".

[@gmradio2436]

1. That was a bad Perun impression. 2. Industrial Capacity is still a limited resource in Trek. Even disregarding none replicatable resources, ship assembly still requires dedicated facilities and personnel to assemble. A portion of that resource will be taken up in ship maintenance.

[@andyb1653]

Starstruck boys study soldiers and equipment. Fighting men study tactics and strategy. Masters of War study logistics and supply chains.

[@Anglomachian]

Did you just invoke Australian Power Point Man? Australian Power Point Man exacts a toll for his power…

[@braddl9442]

I wonder what SALVAGER ships in star treck look like. I mean the California class is for basically maintenance work of the federations operations and second contact stuff. What is the federation Salvage or field repair ship. Is it just one of the carrier ships but full of woker bees.

[@FLAME4564]

Well most likely in the 23rd century the would have relied on other ships of various classes for example other connies were used as Salvager ships to go out on salvage missions and bring other derelict ships home for either repair or decommissioning compared to the 24th or 25th centuries.

[@braddl9442]

@@FLAME4564 I think most connies were museum ships at this point in time. I imagine most oberths were sent to civilian fleets, but I imagine that they could have been used for salvage work if they swap the science pod out for a worker B pod and Tractor TUG set up. I imagine that some of the oldest Miranda hulls were assigned this duty as well, at least the ones that likely could not be upgraded to DS9 era tech.

[@sighsgkj]

I believe the correct phrase is "Amateurs talk tactics, Professionals talk logistics"

[@seb-fluffysnowcap9530]

Moving from one front to another front while fighting and carrying all of the supplies sounds like a job for a galaxy wing.

[@danscholl9972]

That is one of the biggest advantages the Galaxy and Nebula class had. They could carry enormous amounts of cargo, and let's be frank, if you lost a bunch of them in a battle, your fleet is probably already screwed, a la the 7th fleet debacle. Also, consider how the wartime Galaxy's (and presumably the Nebulas) had only

[@philly83]

To fight vampirism just go back in time and get Abraham Lincoln.

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

Or one can go contact the Excalbians.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

Why do you think Starfleet and the Federation had some of its most elite units doing simple escort missions? If it’s important you needed well armed units like the 1st RRFT to make sure the cargo gets through

[@jayrey5390]

Love your Perun bit; Slava Ukraini! And it is a fascinating question Also; boys study tactics, men study logistics and leadership studies economics

[@TK199999]

I would disagree on Dominion tactics and logistics. They seem to prefer Blitzkrieg and Shock/Awe campaigns, where they overwhelmed an enemy with mass numbers/mass fire. Then take strategic objectives, then dig in, followed by bringing up supply and logistics elements to create supply hubs for the next stage. This is in coordination with Changeling infiltrators causing mass havoc in the rear so that after even just one major hammer blow. While using major hidden sensor arrays to monitor enemy fleet formations light years into their own territory to give the Dominion near total overwatch of the front. Prevent counter attacks having any real effect on them as they would always have necessary forces to resist them. An enemy's defense collapse and the Dominion walk in and take over. This was so successful in Gamma Quadrant that it appears the Founders/Vorta just expected it happen in AQ. In first months of the war this appeared to be happening with the UFP, which is why the Dominion didn't appear to build up any real support infrastructure in Cardassian territory (just using upgraded Cardassian support centers for most part). As the expected the Wormhole to be reopened and new untouchable lines of support from the Gamma Quadrant to be available. So the Dominion could afford to burn through the numbers and supplies already brought through the Wormhole in the first months of war. When this didn't happen, the Dominion pulled back from the majority of UFP space (they say they completely withdrew but the show says other wise later). Leaving a stalemate that wouldn't be broken and the UFP regaining all lost territory until the Romulans joined the AQ alliance.

[@lunatickoala]

There isn't such a thing as a "trunk-and-branch" system because what you describe as such is a hub-and-spoke system and what you describe as a "hub-and-spoke" system isn't really a system but what ends up happening ad-hoc if there is no system, no large scale transport of goods beyond the local regioin. The alternative to a hub-and-spoke system is a point-to-point system. The point of a hub-and-spoke system is that you can build specialized, high-volume transports to move large quantities of cargo between hubs efficiently. For example, you can build gigantic containerships to move large quantities of goods cheaply from Shenzhen to Rotterdam, then use Rotterdam as a hub to distribute goods regionally. Then there will be smaller hubs that distribute goods locally. The existence of a hub implies the existence of trunk lines between hubs.

[@TheRezro]

Personal comment. I hate this Cargo "Intrepid" so much! So first of. We can distinct few main types of transports in Star Trek: 1) General Purpose transport like Lantry (Miranda) or Sarajevo (NC), usually moving smaller cargo in regular cargo holds. 2) Container Haulers like Antares (freighter) or J-class Freighters. I assume they mostly moved ore. 3) Specialized Bulk Transports and Tankers like Koyabashi Maru, Ptolemy or Bradford class. Those were basically specialized Container haulers, what used Starfleet hulls and were armed. So they could safely resupply Starfleet even during the war. This Cargo Intrepid fit this last category, but why it doesn't make sense! So Ptolemy is basically standard saucer of TOS era what was in standard armed in few weapons, but it doesn't have costly secondary hull like heavy cruisers, being closer to Hermes in design. So relatively cheap but still capable ship. I actually like Bradford concept. Use of TMP Miranda hull is more costly then Ptolemy, but Miranda was already used as general purpose transports. It was simply updated version (what could take pair of bulk containers. It simply make sense. But Intrepid? Hell no! Intrepids were extremely advanced and specialized Frigates and Scouts. They also have small cargo hold despite what Voyager show us. They were not that common ships. So what would proper TNG equivalent would look like? Well now the fun fact! That is what California class literally is! We didn't fortunately see it in the show. But design plans say clearly that they could tug few containers, what BTW is why they have those weird deflector dishes. This class was de facto replacement of Miranda and have vast cargo holds in modular saucers. They were also still relatively new during Voyager Era. Use of Intrepid for this task, simply make no sense!

[@TheRezro]

Ok, I can buy Elkins as Military Tanker intended to resupply fleets near the front line. Where they could end under relatively heavy fire. It make sense why they could decide on more costly platform in such case.

[@wedgeantillies66]

The sinews of war are logistics and fiancé as without either and in an era of total war, no side can properly prosecute one to a successful outcome.

[@shanenolan5625]

Cheers

[@yzdatabase4175]

I wish we had seen an industrial replicators in ds9.

[@danscholl9972]

Ultimately, i wonder if this is one of the things that screwed Starfleet in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline? The hit and run tactics of the Klingons (who evidently found a new supply of dilithium outside if RuaPente) would have obliterated the Golden era logistics. Without he wake-up call that Wolf 359 gave Stafleet, their logistics would have been utterly cut to shreads, sealing tueir doom.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i think the big issue is the klingons securing a new dilithuim supplies/energy production infrastructure... romulan aid???

[@roydowling2542]

The only reason the federation won the war was plot armour. Too many times during the war the plot armour was deployed to save the federation.

[@skazkatzroy3444]

Cardassians cope harder.

[@daanvos194]

Elkins is my absolute favorite ships

[@farshnuke]

I don't agree with everything but most of it is good. (My major issue is the idea that commerce is important to the federation. It is important to the Ferengi the Federation does not have commerce as it has no currency and no Latinum is not their currency. The Federation is so confident in its post scarcity no currency utopia that it can be buddy buddy with the capitalist regime and tolerate indulge in their culture out of politeness) Logistics is so big because you have the swing from "Starfleet only takes the best of the best" to "Starfleet will promote officers in the field despite them never having been to the academy." I think this probably accounts for part of the ethical shift during the latter parts of the war. A lot of the true believers became casualties and were replaced by good fighters who would never have passed the Entrance exam.

[@saladinbob]

You do realise that all parties involved in the war had Replicators, right? The only thing Starfleet and the Klingons needed was Deuterium for their Warp Cores, the Romulans effectively resource free using the superior black hole technology. So long as they had prisoners to chuck into the black hole for the angular momentum they had infinite energy.

[@hyena8385]

I get the need to replenish physical consumables such as photon torpedoes and substance for the replicators for food and hull repairs etc. But energy for moving around? Surely this should not be an issue by design. Hell even today in the 21st century any strategically important vessels are nuclear powered deliberately so that they don't have to return to port for 30 years. You'd think by then a year or two (especially when your normal activity is deep space exploration!) would be absolutely nothing

[@Hazmatt4700]

SPppppRrrrIiiiing

[@TheBigExclusive]

The Federation has TOO MANY ship classes and models. It's a logistical nightmare for spare parts. . . . . . It explains why O'Brien had big trouble getting spare parts for the Defiant during the Dominion War.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

Yes in reality it would be a damn nightmare. The Cardassians have the right idea with the Galor and Keldon class using a common hull and parts.

[@florians.849]

Well, there is a game called Stellaris where the player controls both fleets and, in a simplified form, the logistics of an entire interstellar civilization, and there is also a Star Trek mod. And yes, playing the Federation in a full-scale war is a nightmare because of all the ship classes.

[@ChairmanMo]

@@florians.849 Star Trek Infinite is a meh game...

[@farshnuke]

This might actually explain the Excelsiors and Mirandas being used so often and older ships being used in the border wars. There are enough spare parts lying around. That said given how prevalent replicators are the biggest issue is time.

[@FLAME4564]

Hence why Starfleet would have used some of these ship classes as ships they would send on salvage missions like for instance in the 23rd century TOS era they use the TOS connies for salvage purposes to bring back other derelicts back home like they tried to do with the Enterprise salvaging the constitution class uss hood back to federation space to see what can be done with that ship.

[@joeswanson733]

The dominion had better logistics since they sent their expedition force and with cardsssian infrastructure to build their additional forces. That actually posed a threat to the Klingon feds and romulans

[@OllamhDrab]

Heehee, with all these overlapping audiences I expect Perun must at least know Drachinifel and you know him and then there's the NAFO guys. :)

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

There's a lot of Australian History-tubers it's really quite impressive.

[@tim2024-df5fu]

"Amatuer's study strategy and pros study logistics" is the saying and it's not true. General's study both and they have people specifically tasked to move their stuff. In WW2 it was Lt General William Knudsen. He never served a day in the military prior to being appointed to Lt General. He was the head of Ford Motors and given a direct appointment to Lt Gen. and put directly in charge of US war production.

[@SeanSoraghan]

Deterium is so abundant. Its not a problem for anyone

[@AdmiralCupcake91]

“Ok I can’t keep up that voice” **doesn’t notice change because American**

[@pimptom8704]

LOGISTICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@truthsandlies5044]

YYYAAAAAA BABY, THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!

[@ycplum7062]

I do not belIeve the Dominian were not capable in logistics. In fact, I think they were very proficient based on their discussions on DS9. The Dominion perspective seemed extremely strategic and that inherenmtly consideres logistics. However, with the wormhole cut off, I suspect they had problems adapting the Cardassian's inadequate logistics systems (basically all they had available) to their needs. I suspect the Dominion logistics system was very capable.

[@lunatickoala]

Yes, the Dominion was incredibly good with logistics. The Cardassians were a second rate power unable to hold a candle to any one of the Federation, Klingons, or Romulans. But using only what they were able to bring over before the wormhole was cut off and limited Cardassian resources, they were winning against the Federation and Klingons combined. A lot of people forget that the great Alpha Quadrant Alliance wasn't fighting the Dominion. They were fighting a Dominion expeditionary force cut off from their main supply lines by divine intervention.

[@rthompson7182]

The logistics of a fictional war from a thirty year old television show. Unconscionably nerdy.

[@SymbioteMullet]

Something something something Roboute Guilliman something something...

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

Venom geek asspull at the helm again.

[@mrgunn2726]

The transporter as demonstrated in the series creates a huge continuity issue. In theory, anything, including a star-ship could be put in a giant transporter, then replicated add nauseam from the pattern buffer. The same could also be done with personnel to create a clone crew, over and over and over again. Once you can replicate matter using only energy, the galaxy is your oyster you no longer need a supply base only an energy supply and a transporter. The point, Star Trek is silly and Star Trek at war makes no sense.

[@rusharnmal7425]

To bad the writers of Deep Space Nine much less the rest of Star Trek never really cared about Logistics. The Federation is both bound and free of the restraints of economy at the same time. Sisko and Admiral Ross were happy to keep throwing ships at the dominion and if it wasn't for literal Deus Ex Machina The alliance should have been defeated During Operation Return.

[@mt-on4lt]

The entire U.S. military is a logistics organization that sometimes engages in combat.

[@crazylegssw]

Fuck hell, there you are

[@HMSVanguard46]

Yayyy

[@julonkrutor4649]

You are missing 40ish min to get to Peruns level ^^

[@terryf3282]

How the hell did the Dominion carry on the war cut off from their empire. Yes they had brought some ship yards and breeding pens. The Federation and Klingons have thousands of worlds hundreds of billions if not trillions of citizens. The Dominion only had access to the resources within Cardasian space. The fact they were winning the war with only what they brought through and what they could build with Cardasian resources shows you how powerful they were.

[@maxwellpauric00]

Well they did have a while to build up more infrastructure in Cardassian space during the cold War period before the war.

[@jacktenny5966]

more perun please lol

[@matthewbarabas3052]

im pretty sure you are conflating modern logistics with futuristic ones.

[@josephsteven1600]

Perun, collab please. qwq

[@nurglesgrin8257]

Lol we dont say shrimp