The Lunar Sorcerer - is it too powerful? D&D 5e

[@nikrentas]

Its not that depth of the explanations that Treantmonk provides, its the reasoning and in-game scenarios he brings up that is so refreshing and useful. He's that calm and reasonable voice in the back of the room when the D&D community invariably overreact.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thank you!

[@TheTookinator]

Honestly, I don't always agree with his conclusions, but I'm back here watching every video anyway, because I know he'll provide great info and enough detail that I can feel like I'm making an informed decision in even those cases. (My tables tend to be very focused on the social pillar with limited combat that's rarely at risk of being fatal, because that's the style we enjoy. It means sometimes my priorities differ from his, and that's 100% ok by me. And given his motto of "D&D is for everyone," I think he'd agree!)

[@MenschWerdeWesentlich]

I wholeheartedly agree with both comments. I disagree with quite a few of Chris’ evaluations, but there is no denying that he is a much needed voice of reason to ground the often overly easily excitable community.

[@DeadpoolAli]

This.

[@samuelpierce639]

@@TheTookinator Yep. Example: In adventures focusing on deception Alter Self IS a better spell than Disguise Self, because it’s undetectable without something like Detect Magic or Truesight.

[@NateAllard]

Lunar sorcerers not getting Moonbeam makes about as much sense as storm sorcerers not getting Call Lightning. Just baffling honestly.

[@lexington_005]

not really, all arcane magic on Krynn comes from the moons, since they are the material manifestations of Solinari, Lunatari, and Nuitari. The 3 cousin gods and goddess of magic. The Luna sorcerer is just influenced more by the phases of the moon .

[@goldfencer]

They do get Call Lightning, though. You're thinking of Lightning Bolt. EDIT: Wait, my brain was parsing that as Tempest Clerics.

[@jahpocalypse]

​@@lexington_005 you're the worst kind of nerd that justifies poor design with irrelevant lore

[@weswtf]

its like wildfire druids not getting fireball

[@Matt-ln7lb]

@@weswtf Eh, that one's a bit more explainable because there are so many other fire spells, and fireball makes an explosion, which isn't quite as in the theme of destruction into renewal, and fireball/lightning bolt are notably above the power curve for damage spells, outperforming some spells 2 levels higher, like flame strike. Plant growth and revivify on that tier actually does make some sense as well with the renewal theme, and they get flame strike at 9th level, and that's functionally fireball with half radiant damage and half the radius as a 5th level spell.

[@wanderingronin9028]

Glad someone is actually putting some rational thought into this.

[@aimerw]

I would definitely rank Clockwerk and Aberant ahead of this, and probably Divine when muliclassing (largely on a Sorcadin for Spirit Guardians). Lunar does seems like a good subclass, however, I would really want my DM to swap out Ray of Sickness and Color Spray for something else; if sticking to Sorcerer spells then probably Silvery Barbs and Absorb Elements for still remaining pertinent at higher levels, but Earth Tremor would also work and has some lunar theming (gravity of the moon) while Mage Armor wouldn't go amiss either. No idea why they thought Ray of Sickness or Color Spray was going to have any use past the first couple of levels, and even then... also, what do they have to do with the moon?!

[@JB-xl2jc]

@@aimerw And why no moonbeam?!

[@nathanwheeler6725]

For Waxing and Waning at 6th level, I think the best potential use of it would be to switch to Crescent Moon after you use your casting of shield, and right before you're about to twin one of the better transmutation spells (e.g. levitate, haste, polymorph),. That way at worst you break even, and you could potentially save up to 2 more if you cast other transmutation/illusion spells the same day. Definitely not OP since there are alot of constraints on this working out favorably, but not completely useless either.

[@nickm9102]

There is another option, this might be useful toward the EOD. Switch to new moon and quicken chill touch. This would allow you to cast two attacks cantrips if you have no other use for your bonus action. This would also prevent creatures from regaining HP if you hit. This is the only in combat use I could see that might give you an actual ROI for using it.

[@nickm9102]

You could also just stay in full and take something like magic initiate to get blade ward or resistance and just quicken one of them when you don't have a better bonus action. I mean 1d4 to a save or resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing for a round isn't terrible if you don't already have a use for your bonus action.

[@nathanwheeler6725]

Cool thoughts. Going new moon also gives potentially fun interactions with the fey touched feat. Having the option for a couple free twinned hideous laughters could be fun.

[@МаратГабдуллин-б5ф]

Or you can burn second level slot with Font of Magic to gain the same benefit on a better subclass.

[@nathanwheeler6725]

Well, it ain't free if you pay for it. But I agree there are better subclasses

[@darrenromanko2414]

This sorcerer would have been better if it had the moonbeam spell added to the list. How can you not have the most (moonlike?) themed spell not on the list? Overall I feel this is a great analysis of the subclass. Another very well done video. Thank you.

[@coldfusion230]

Was Moonbeam on the original UA?

[@Kiwipai]

The moment he showed the spell list I had to scroll down to the comments to check if I was just being blind. How can a moon magician not get THE moon magic spell...

[@christianlangdon3766]

Another wizards blonde moment. Here is a fire druid (doesn't get fireball), now here is a moon caster, doesn't get the one spell with moon in the name.

[@jfast8256]

..... pay attention to Dragonlance. What are the moons? They are the gods of magic lunitari, nuitari, and solinari. They aren't Druids. A lunar sorcerer pulled Ng spells from nuitari is more likely to get raise undead for free than moon beam.

[@BigFrakingSword]

@@jfast8256 While your logic seems sound, it is contradicted by the Moon Fire feature. And well, Moonbeam would be an expansion of that feature. In fact, that is where they should have added that sorcerers (at 3rd level) get access to the spell. Perhaps, even giving a free use once per long rest.

[@pig.sensei]

Nice analysis! I was kind of shocked when I found out that people were freaking out over this subclass as well, since I had already approved it for my playgroup to use since I had found nothing wrong with it. People are treating this like the Twilight + Peace Domain combo and I just can't help but wonder if they've actually read the class

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I think this is far less problematic than either of those subclasses.

[@scetchmonkey007]

What I don't like about this subclass is that it is supposed to be the subclass to define "Wizards of High Sorcery" in Krynn.... they are wizards not sorcerers, and they never could change their spell access based on which moon affected their spells.

[@evonthon]

@@scetchmonkey007 I don't think that's what this class is about, if that's what you want, look at the feats... one of the few sets to give access to 2nd level spells. This class just seems to be: Krynn has some of the most magically powerful moons, how would sorcerers tap into that? Also people did regularly change orders, some even multiple times... just look at Raistlin and his family.

[@snazzyfeathers]

It's really a kneejerk reaction to seeing more sorcery points and more spells than other sorcerers. People see that and don't read into the details of the subclass they just assume its broken

[@scetchmonkey007]

@@evonthon Wizards in Krynn did not change orders on a daily basis, this class can do it multiple times per day. The fact that the DL book is out and there is no Wizard subclass, for being red/white or black robe shows you exactly what the designers wanted to do with Krynn, and the role the subclass fills, especially with your comparison to changing orders, you knoe this is what Wizards of high sorcery in 5e is. Wizards really needed some love since 5E began it has been the least played caster out of all of them. In my current game with the 2nd wizard to ever play at my tables since 2014. And that player who wanted to try illusion magic was looking at wizard subclass features and admits he would be more optimal playing a bard.... especially one DND bard, wow thats a strong bard.

[@mosesferney1722]

I’m not sure if this reading is correct but the lunar embodiment at 1st level says “these spells count as a sorcerer spell for you”. Sorcerers can also switch out sorcerer spells on level up. The wording is that “when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another on the sorcerer spell list” So unless there is some hidden rule I don’t know about saying you can’t switch out table spells, you can replace the trash spells with better ones.”

[@Phiro00]

wait you may have a point. im gonna look into this.

[@dren5810]

Sorcerers swap one spell per level, being able to slowly trade for better spells is a great boost (that they need) but by no means is it anything to be up in arms about. The community needs to relax.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I hadn't considered that, it would certainly be something I would do with a number of these if allowed. Though you won't get the free casting of the switched 1st level spells since that feature only applies to the spells listed in the lunar phase chart.

[@Rhaegar.Targaryen]

This probably not inteded but when I change all crap spells for better alternatives from sorcerer table seem pretty versitale spellcaster with plenty interesting options. Yes Aberrant Mind a Clockwork is more powerfull for this purpose, still this is good option for optimazing. I would like see some build in this case. If it doesnt allowed this subclass is pretty uninteresting with overcomplicated mediocore options.

[@absolutelybuttons7164]

Yes, this is correct. In the same vein, a Gloom Stalker can swap out Disguise Self; however, Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind can't swap to any sorcerer spell, since their swapping has the explicit school restriction. D&D Beyond might not allow this interaction, but they also don't allow Clockwork Soul / Aberrant Mind to swap their spells at all.

[@20storiesunder]

You're such a great part of the dnd community, thanks for making these Chris.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I appreciate that!

[@kaii9306]

I share the opinions on the Lunar spells. Yes, the feature is great for a sorcerer, but it's not overpowered due to the spells presented and the fact that you can only cast the 1st level spell without a spell slot, instead of one each from the phase you are in. Also, I think I personally prefered the UA spell list.

[@Aaron-pj3ky]

It looks extremely strong at first glance, but reading it through makes it apparent that is power budget isn't as dramatic as it looks. You get free sorcery points - but this mostly just offsets the problem of having to change your lunar phase. You just get a lot of passive features that range from okay to decent. It's a very flavorful sorcerer with enough tacked on to make it stronger than your pre-TCE Sorcerers, but I don't know what I would do to optimize it. Although twin Sacred Flame (or Acid Splash or Green-Flame Blade) with Telepathic feat isn't something I've seen before.

[@JonathanMandrake]

I just think that the trend is problematic. Yes, in this case it is balanced, but I can already see them forgetting that extra sorcery points and additional spells need to be balanced by bad spells on the spell list and extra sorcery point costs

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

You can Twin Green Flame Blade (and booming blade by proxy)??? I thought you couldn't Twin either Cantrips, RAW.

[@Aaron-pj3ky]

@@absolstoryoffiction6615 My suggestion is that Green-Flame Blade and Acid Splash can hit a second target if they're within five feet of each other. A decent use case for the Telepathic feat is that you might be able to push two enemies side by side so you can get two targets with one cantrip.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

@@Aaron-pj3ky I see... That's also possible.

[@jamesshuttlesworth]

I knew I should not have looked at the UA version and got excited about it. Also, thank you for being so reasonable and rational in your explanations. I can't stand the reactionary content creators that are howling about it being op and "Pls nerf/ban". 😁

[@МаратГабдуллин-б5ф]

Amazing video. Main conclusion from whole situation- majority of D&D content creators don't understand how D&D math and mechanics work. And saddest part- their fanbases will influence ONE D&D surveys, filling them according to their incompetent videos.

[@daveshif2514]

majority of dnd content creators are just chasing clout and dont actually play. dnd players are some of the most impressionable ppl ive ever met, and im a full time dm. i trust treantmonk because hes been doing this since 3 rd e knows better than most

[@jhonea6535]

These abilities were obviously originally written to represent the 3 moons of Krynn (and the associated gods of magic), but got that stripped away as the company made sure player-facing materials were campaign neutral for broad appeal. I'd wager a few mechanics were retinkered along the way as well.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yeah, I noticed the feats are tailored to the 3 moons so I wondered why this one wasn't.

[@jhonea6535]

@@TreantmonksTemple because feats are already an "optional" rule obviously 🙄😜

[@raziel5835]

Its so silly they dont have Moonbeam for full moon and Darkness for new moon, they couldve give all three faces 1 evocation spell that was thematic. It feels like they didnt want to step on the other subclasses toes with the spell list. Still an interesting concept.

[@jfast8256]

Another player who didn't play earlier editions of Dragonlance. Which God of magic exactly would offer moon beam? Lunitari would offer invisibility.

[@raziel5835]

@@jfast8256 I mean, the description of the subclass suggest that you could use it in any setting where the moon/moons grant powers, not necesarly a deity, I dont even think Moonbeam is that good, but as Sorcerer I can already learn invisibility or darkness in any other build, it just feels a bit odd, missed oportunity.

[@jfast8256]

@@raziel5835 It's dragonlance material though. Better to stick to source material...... Actually, you may have a point. How many source material purists are there? Me and my sis? A few thousand more? Perhaps you are right, cater to the whole, not to the fans? There are far more of the whole than there are of the fans. Also, I already homebrewed a 5th e dragonlance that is FAR more faithful to the source material, so I wasn't likely to buy this anyways. I guess I just needed someone to point it out to me that people would be using the subclass in settings OTHER THAN dragonlance. You sort of 1/2 changed my mind. Thanks for pointing out to me the thing I wasn't thinking about.

[@raziel5835]

@@jfast8256 hey no worries! Everyone has their table 😎 I just found the changes of the lunar spells in this iteration bit odd, I love sorcerers and the Moon, so the subclass got me excited, but this new list of spells doesnt evoke Moon to me unlike the one in the UA. It kinda feels like they wanted to keep them all in the same schools of magic for some reason, instead of using schools of magic as a base, but still giving you a few thematic spells like clockwork and aberrant mind do.

[@pranakhan]

It seems that this is another subclass designed more for the setting that it is in (DL in this case) than the "generic" ones in Tashas. Dragon Lance (at least in 2nd ed.) was an absolutely brutal and unforgiving world that was responsible for the death of 2 of my characters, and my Paladin falling from grace. If they tried to maintain any of that visceral quality in the 5th ed. supplement (...), then the players will need every benefit they can get their hands on to survive. Also, hard to imagine any of this working in D&D Beyond, as they are notorious for not attending to Sorcerer ability functions

[@lucas_lipp]

Yup, I made a Lunar Sorcerer on DnD Beyond, yesterday, and at first level already, some of the features don't work. You only know the spells of the phase you're in, and to change it, you need to go into your character setting, as there's no way to do it on the character sheet. At least I was unable to find it, but I haven't checked if there's a difference between on mobile and on PC.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Ugh, what a silly programming error.

[@kylereese5966]

@@lucas_lipp I'm currently playing an aberrant mind and they still don't have it fixed to where you can swap out your spells for your first level ability lol.

[@lucas_lipp]

@@kylereese5966 Sigh Yeah, I feared that would be the case, still disappointing. I think I'm probably gonna make a custom item that just adds the additional spells, and I either just edit it as I level up, or I'll just add all the spells at once, but I'll ignore them until I reach the proper level. It's not ideal, but at least it's something I can do, I think.

[@pranakhan]

@@lucas_lipp According to the D&DB community forum, making an item like you described seems to be the most effective work around.

[@r.downgrade5836]

That flavor text for how this sorcerer's magic can manifest directly makes it one of the absolute best class/subclass to play in the WIld beyond the Witchlight campaign.

[@darthwikkie]

At first I was full of interest for this subclass. But as your video continued my interest waned, eventually being eclipsed by my abiding love of the Clockwork Soul.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Understandable

[@PiroMunkie]

I always forget that Sorcerers don't get ritual casting. I would honestly put this subclass on the same level as Divine Soul. 15 bonus spells means so little when the selection is so poor. Even if I couldn't switch spells with Aberrant Mind, the base spells it gets are all decent. Divine Soul may not get 15 bonus spells, but since you have access to the Cleric spell list the spells you _do_ have will just be so much more impactful than anything you're doing with Lunar.

[@eduardopereiradossantosmel7403]

Been saying that Lunar isn't as op as it looks to my friends and they thought I was joking, so I'm gonna link this video to them. Standard Sorcerer not having even 20 spells at level 20 is annoyingly restrictive (even more when compared with wizard 44 free spells before any subclass addition), so any subclass that gives 5 or more spells to it usually calls a lot of attention. But quality is an important factor as you said. The most standard Divine Sorcerer could go the entire campaign just spamming spiritual weapon and spirit guardians and be extremely effective, with way more slots to burn than the cleric trying to do the same (and you still have the sorcerer list to fireball away if you so desire). Clockwork, even on it's most meme build I can think of (spam overlevel Armor of Agathys and go close and personal with burst spells) is still fairly strong thanks to its features (Reliable talent for attacks and saves? Hell yeah). Aberrant Mind might not have a spell list as strong, but Psionic Sorcery and Revelation in Flesh might be the two most powerful sorcerer abilities in the game (my mind went blank, so I can't remember other sorcerer abilities right now, but they are at least on top 5 for sure). Casting spells by spending only a sorcery point instead of slot, and they come with a built-in subtle metamagic (but since it is not worded as such, it means you can put another metamagic on it when casting) is phenomenal, even with a "weaker" list. And Revelation in Flesh is a cheap 10 min, non-concentration, zero cooldown transformation that carries a lot of utility. There are very few, almost none, scenarios where your character would still be trapped, or couldn't progress in the adventure after getting the transformation needed for the occasion, let alone all 4 (one of them is a non-concentration FLY for 1 sorcerer point, at level 14, you might as well assume you always have a flying speed). Lunar is...ok, definitely not weak, but it has some null-gain traps on it. The quick change that cost 1 sorc point, so you can save 1 sorc point is one as you mentioned, but the biggest one to me is having shield as the extra spell (even more when you think it is probably one of the best spell in the lists). Shield is great, arguably overpowered! But is also such a staple of casters that have access to it, that every sorcerer would pick it anyways. The great gain of the class is...1 really good extra known spell, and a bag of mixed goods. If we're talking standard gaming here, a Booming Blade Draconic Sorcerer would cause more balancing problems. And if go to true optimization, I would say Divine, Clockwork and Aberrant take the cake, even more if we talk multiclass into the equation.

[@davidpencil3576]

I was unimpressed my this subclass initially for the same reasons you bring up, Chris. And on the subject of Aberrant vs Clockwork, while I agree there is greater flexibility with the spell selections, I really like the summon spells and since Summon Construct has big problems compared to Summon Aberration, I tend to lean toward the Abberant sorcerer. I also think the other subclass features for the Abberant sorcerer are more engaging.

[@WallyDM]

This is the best review I have seen on the Lunar sorcerer. Hearing a lot of chatter about it being overpowered and bannable I thought I was missing something. Sure 15 spells, but I only think about 6 are spells I would actually cast. I did do a character build for the Lunar Sorcerer on my channel and I realized my biggest disappointment for the Lunar Sorcerer is a lack of a theme that involves the moon. Taking a bunch of existing spells, separating them into 3 piles and calling them "moon phases" was disheartening. With no moon-theme to build around, I opted to focus on Twinning spells. Again, well done on thus review! Great to hear that I wasnt the only one skeptical of it being overpowered. Cheers!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks! Yeah, what was the point of 3 different categories of spells if (other than 1st level) there's no mechanical impact for them being categorized?

[@TheZandaz]

What if this (and Tasha's) aren't overpowered, but the others are underpowered?...

[@witchBoi_Connor]

Thisthisthisthis Player's Handbook subclasses are all so tepid and were made at a point when 5e's game design was still getting its legs and learning what each classes' subclasses needed as standard. They're underpowered, everything else is *fine*.

[@starking2162]

Except for things like Life cleric.

[@texteel]

tasha randomly went back to tamper with bladesinger, but left draconic sorcerer as it was. Geniuses, the lot of them

[@petrus9067]

Based comment

[@Kiwipai]

You'd think people invested enough in the game to instantly read up on new subclasses would know that just because you have a spell doesn't necessarily mean you'll ever use it. It matters how many spells you get THAT YOU'LL USE, people. Imagine a warlock subclass that got every single cantrip, judging by how people reacted to this sorcerer they'd ban that subclass instantly.

[@HistorysRaven]

Adding the 1st level feat from Dragonlance for mages does add a few "spell slots" in 1/long rest use spells, but that just means that it's now equal to most other true casters.

[@leslierobinson8724]

Great breakdown, I was waiting for your analysis. I looked around at some other content makers, an they were in the process of banning this subclass, and after reviewing the class myself, I didn't really understand why. I have really hope moving forward that all the other Sorcerer subclasses get the Aberrant Mind, Clockwork Soul, and now the Lunar treatment with the additional spells/switching options. Take care all.

[@demiurge2763]

Hey Treantmonk, something that I've seen brought up a few times is if you can switch out the Lunar Emodiment spells for other spells when you level up. From what I've seen, there are two sides to this. One side says that you can't switch them out since it doesn't state that you can (like with the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul), other "additional spells" features like Domain spells, Conclave spells, and similar features like the 10th level Fathomless Warlock feature don't allow you to switch them out (at least that is the general consensus), and the line "These spells don't count against the number of (inster class) spells you know/prepare." doesn't allow you to switch them out since it's a spell you have known/prepared outside of the ones form you base class. The other side says that since each of the features has this line: "These spells count as (insert class) spells for you", it means that they go by the class' prepared/known rules, meaning you can switch them out. Where do you stand on this? (apologies if you have already answered this in a video or a comment already)

[@genrepunk]

Great analysis, Chris! I'm more excited by the different mechanics being introduced or brought back than the overall strength of the subclass. It bodes well for making gameplay and optimization more interesting. Probably the strangest thing I can think of doing with this subclass is taking Ritual Caster: Sorcerer and combining with Arcana proficiency to scribe scrolls of the ritual spells from the different phases to add to the ritual book so they're always available. It's not super strong, and not necessarily optimal as an overall build decision, but if one has a spare feat that would further add to the sustain and utility. It could be good in a campaign where magic items aren't widely available. Mostly, though, I look forward to seeing what sorts of multiclass builds the community comes up with. There's gotta be something interesting for Sorcadins in there.

[@thereal_starboy]

I feel like that moon fire feature could have easily just been “you get the sacred flame cantrip and once you hit 3rd level you get moonbeam”

[@ungainlytitan1460]

To be honest, sorcerers need buffing, though I was not aware that people were loosing it over this.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I was originally going to show a clip of someone losing their mind over this, but I didn't recieve permission to use it, so I ended up not adding it.

[@jareddavidson6654]

Eh, do they need buffing? In my opinion no full casters need buffing, their fine as they are. Sure if you compare everything to wizards they might seem week. But their about as good as your average warlock and better than your average fighter

[@HistorysRaven]

@@jareddavidson6654 They really do. My favorite subclass prior to Lunar being released was the Shadow Sorcerer. And I love my Shadow Sorcerer. But for her to find her true potential, I needed to take three levels of Warlock. I'm test running the Lunar Sorcerer, with the first level Initiate feat, and he doesn't have the same weaknesses that pushed me into picking up levels of Warlock.

[@weswtf]

really happy the way you broke down this class and compared some of its features to other classes and the spell list I have better predictive on it now

[@TheMichaellathrop]

It would definitely be broken if they could either change the spells out or just had a better spell list, could also combo well with a pact of the tome warlock dip for their ability to ritually cast any ritual spell they can learn, or might be worth the ritual casting feat.

[@allenmcnight8576]

"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots." Plain as day, all sorcerers can change out any spells they know.

[@AresiusMajere]

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

[@Gumby-vx7ki]

I like how positive you are, Chris, even when you disagree with others' assessments

[@JosephGuadagni]

You are not correct about not being able to swap out the spells. The 15 spells on the table are added to your spells known and they count as sorcerer spells for you. The *base* sorcerer class feature Spellcasting tells you that you can swap out one sorcerer spell each level with another spell for which you have spell slots. So you are absolutely allowed to swap out these spells. For instance, a 5th-level Lunar Sorcerer can swap out Ray of Sickness for any sorcerer spell of 3rd-level or lower. However, the sorcerer can only ever get a free cast of shield, ray of sickness, or color spray, regardless of whether that sorcerer has swapped out those spells. Why? The features that let you cast those spells for free refer specifically to the Lunar Spells Table and *not* "spells you have gained from the Lunar Embodiment feature".

[@dumbghost3109]

see, this is what the the sorcerer SHOULD have been at the start, minus the constant free use spells. every sorcerer subclass needs an update to bring it inline with how strong the aberrant mind sorcerer is.

[@paulmeahan3667]

You don’t get likes on the internets if you don’t irrationally scream “Day One BAN!!!” Except from me…I give my likes to coherent analysis like that found in this video, Chris. Great job as always.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks!

[@tymekx014]

Your video persuaded me that this subclass is appropriate to the power level recent sorcerer subclasses have been designed for. I initially thought it to be overpowered mostly because it has features that on the surface look OP (15 spells, more sorcery points) but they come with caveats that are pretty significant once pointed out. Great breakdown, glad I watched

[@TheRobversion1]

Agreed. this is not as powerful as the clock sorc (that gets wall of force which is one of the best spells for it's level in the game along with other standouts like armor of agathys, tiny servant, rope trick and greater restoration). Not only do i think the aberrant mind is ahead of this (psionic sorcery is an awesome ability) but even the divine soul is ahead of this with this with its access to all cleric spells. i'm not a big believer in the whole getting more spells (lunar sorc) is more important than getting the right spells (divine sorc). the divine sorc gives access to standouts again like aid, command, death ward and spirit guardians. would i like to play this? sure just to try it out. but the theme doesnt excite me. the mechanics just feel like a controlled form of wild magic instead of something really tied to the phases of the moon. i dont think any of the abilities are particularly powerful and yes, moonbeam, was a big miss. the abilities feel like generic enhancements to the base sorc. I'd have wanted abilities also that kind of steered this into an archetype that it would be excellent at. imo, another big miss is not giving this sorc any sort of wild shape/shifter ability as the whole "Were-animal" theme is very much tied to the phases of the moon.

[@brunomattos]

A vídeo with good nerfs to overpowered subclasses would be bitter BUT EXTREMELY USEFUL!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's a good idea, though I don't know if I would include this one. I think it's fine as is.

[@brunomattos]

@@TreantmonksTemple Agreed.

[@МаратГабдуллин-б5ф]

@@TreantmonksTemple or changes/buffs for the worst subclasses.

[@unnefer001]

@@МаратГабдуллин-б5ф He's got a few of these. Did the monk, IIRC.

[@erickignacioferreira8143]

I reverted Peace and Twilight cleric to their UA and I think it's good enough

[@Mithguar]

Wow! Anyone was freaking out over this? Aberrant soul sorcerer Psionics spells will save you a lot more sorc points and you get free subtel spell while casting it. I also like aberrant spell list better. This subclass is really meh in my book.

[@maxkogan3785]

I think the subclass is a step in the right direction for sorcerors. Not being as versatile as wizards but just as fragile, it's the class features that make them stand apart and makes them special because they just naturally jave access to spells that the other spellcasters don't immediately. This, Abberant Mind, and Divine Soul are to me what a sorceror should look like

[@donaldsmeed5653]

Sounds like taking 1 or two levels of twilight cleric then going clockwork sorcerer would be better for the lunar theme.

[@millardfillmor]

UA lunar sorc was as good as Clockwork an aberrant, published is worse than both and worse than Divine soul too imo. I'd take fewer spells known but access to Cleric list over 15 mostly bad spells known. Plus concentration free flight is better than any of the Lunar late level abilities

[@uglysong34]

I think you actually can retrain a lunar spell as your 1 spell per level up by RAW. Lunar embodiment uses the same language as the bard's magical secrets feature as well as the divine soul sorcerer's divine magic feature, for example. This should apply to any spells known class that learns additional spells through their subclass, like the gloom stalker ranger (though it wouldn't apply to the ranger's primal awareness optional class feature, because that doesn't specify whether the additional spells learned are ranger spells). All this being said, I definitely wouldn't begrudge any DM who ruled otherwise.

[@O4C209]

"There's so many spells!" "Yeah, but they're bad." "But there are so many!"

[@suspiciousperson1533]

Me and my DM went through this subclass together and we both decided to change the Waxing and Waning phase spells to somethiung else but in the same schools. Now every Lunar Embodiment Phase became so much more useful as every spell had something to offer

[@benjaminkowal7310]

Its like the Wildfire Druid not getting fireball...

[@jaceg810]

18th level features are nice, the first one is like a healing word but not a spell, bonus action healing is good in a pinch, and blinding can be strong, The second one is great because it it both a movement reduction and with invisibility an get out of range for free, it simply is a great tool to retreat from an oops I messed up. Teleport is good utillity. Also it is definately better than insert low level spell that can do the same, because even if you can cast it as a bonus action, it does not eat you spellcast for the turn.

[@KordTheDestroyer]

Great review Treantmonk! 👏

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks! 👍

[@OGPedXing]

At my table, I always boost sorcerers so they match between subclasses and are more equal to wizards. I give all subclasses extra spells like aberrant mind (Divine Soul only gets cleric spells) plus I give the Metamagic feat for free.

[@chrismoss7163]

Just want to say thanks for not just grabbing for flavor of the month opinions, or overreaction to get more clicks. That has to be hard given the nature of being a youtuber, but it's appreciated!

[@TehJuiceBoks]

One of my players made a Selune worshipping sorceress this campaign! She is going to love this. Perfect timing.

[@davec1]

Keep in mind, as a Sorcerer, getting free spell slots is extra nice because you can convert those into Sorcery Points. Anytime the amount of Sorcery Points matters, chances are you will use Shield at least once, so that's what it amounts to. What I find a bit weak here is how they theme the features with the moon phases only for the phases of the actual moon to then be completely irrelevant. Now, obviously few people would want to track this, in practice it would be a pain to have significant features tied something like moon phases. But then why the heck can't they think of a more fitting themeing and names of the features? Why don't they refer to Krynn's moons, for instance? It's just random names that have the word "moon" in them, there's nothing waxing and waning or otherwise moonish about the mechanics. What is actually "lunar" about the Lunar Sorcerer? It's a sorcerer that shifts between three modes and gets a bunch of spells and metamagic boni depending of the mode they're in. Based on what I've seen of the next edition of D&D in the UAs so far, it seems to be a trend for WotC to more frequently just go "f*%$ it, let's not worry about theme anymore and just hand out random bundles of features and spells and be done with it" and I think they're missing opportunities there and they risk making things seem rather bland and exchangeable.

[@elliotbryant3459]

Well said! I feel like that criticism is relevant to a lot of recent subclasses.

[@TheTsugnawmi2010]

Immediately I'm asking, "Where the hell is Moonbeam?". The moon controls the tides so where the hell is Control Water? This is just like the Fire Druid not having Fireball

[@pederw4900]

So happy you’re speaking some sense on this subclass. It’s nothin special!

[@whatsthedndeal1347]

Sidebar: I'd argue that Color Spray can be a decent spell when used properly. It has no save (Hit point based only) and affects a decent hitpoint pool that scales well. Sure, it only lasts 1 round and Sleep could last much longer, but Sleep can be interrupted, resulting in the affected creatures still taking their turns, and some creatures are immune to it. Less creatures are immune to being blinded. If timed right, color spray can offer a substantial advantage in a battle where the goal is just to kill the things. One round of guaranteed advantage on attacks against and disadvantage on attacks from the enemies can turn the tide of a fight. That said, great video! As always, a very balanced and fair review.

[@АннаЛиберт-ь1й]

I wouldn't call it OP either, but... Free subtle casts of either enchantment or illusion spells could be extremely powerful in either stealthy or social-heavy type of encounters. Just imagine lunar sorc with a new moon boon casting subtle suggestions left right and center without anyone even realising that they're using magic. Neat! ( I would also need to scroll through necromancy and transmutation spells. There might be some really potent combos with 1-point quickening there, with a free empowerment on top of it!)

[@АннаЛиберт-ь1й]

About the last part. Most of the decent transmutation options are on the druid spell list, so, unless you can think of some potent multiclass combo, they are unavailable. However, you can grab thorn whip with magic initiate. With 1-point quickcast (and free empowered spell, but oh, well) you can start thinking about potential combos with your leveled spells. Still, unless you're getting more that this out of your magic initiate (for example, guidance is really cool it your team doesn't have it already), you're probably better with telekinetic feat anyway. You can also extend your animate objects for free. Can be really useful, if you could cast it before actual battle, or even use it in two battles in a row. Necromacy has more blasty spells, but most of them are not really efficient anyway, and I'm not sure that even free metamagic can solve that. Im' too lazy to do the math. Still, finger of death can be potent. Chill touch can finally have some uses. And you have a lot of ways to grab toll the dead if you really want to. All in all, I really like what I see. It seems that this subclass can really encourage to use some of the "not very popular" spells instead of spamming evocation all the way.

[@browniiescorner]

Shhh no one show this to Luke at the DM Lair his ego is too big to understand that more spells do not equal better subclass

[@johnchance7836]

The thing that strikes me watching this video is that the class might be powerful but it isn't flavorful. When I think about the clockwork soul its theme is exciting, and I might be disappointed I can't easily combine it with the Artificer. When I think about the Aberrant mind it's powerful, fun, and combines easily with a warlock, that's great. Now what about a lunar sorcerer? I'm thinking about darkness, light, shadow, a real focus on illusion. That's not what this class delivers. It's keystone feature seems to be a free shield spell that I can maybe flavor to be somehow moon related?

[@davidrose7938]

I like the theme. It seems in line with my memory of the Dragonlance Chronicles (read decades ago).

[@minikawildflower]

My Twilight Cleric is OFFENDED that this doesn't include Moonbeam

[@joocebocks8610]

One thing I have not seen given credit to this subclass is how powerful it is for the typical 2 Warlock/X Sorcerer Sorlock blaster that intends to use their sorcery points to quicken evocation spells. A typical level 5 2W/3S Sorlock blaster would have 3 Sorcery points, and it costs 2 sorcery points to quicken, so unless they burn spell slots for sorcery points they're only getting 1 off. However, 3 levels of Lunar Sorcerer that uses the New Moon phase is able to quicken an evocation spell for 1 sorcery point 3 times a day, which is also coincidentally how many sorcery points they have by default. This essentially triples the amount of quickens they can perform in a day before needing to burn spell slots for sorcery points. At level 7 they can quicken 4 times with their base slots, and then since their proficiency goes up at level 9 they will then be able to quicken 5 times with their base slots, and then 6 times at level 10. Pretty much the entire time through their career once they hit level 5 they will be able to quicken more blasts than even a full Sorcerer of another subclass at the same level would be able to without burning slots.

[@snazzyfeathers]

Waxing and Waning would have made more sense and would have made it much better if you were allowed to cast all of the spells on whatever phase you choose for free. I mean you could cast a first level spell "for free" by just using the metamagic feature to give yourself a first level slot. You're still spending sorcery points as a bonus action anyways

[@Iced333]

I think this also has some holdover from the UA which was much stronger so it has a built in perception of being super strong. In the UA you could cast all of the spells in your phase for free once, not just first level spells, along with a different spell list with some better options. The level 14 features were also a lot stronger with full moon giving advantage on saving throws in your light and new moon giving disadvantage against you in dim light and darkness not just darkness.

[@kenmcclain1499]

Thank you for a great video. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thank you! You too!

[@tibot4228]

I am convinced this subclass is a preview of what oned&d will do to sorcerers: you get two Arcane Schools of your choice + 2 determined by your subclass.

[@leodouskyron5671]

Unpopular opinion- I would take Divine Soul over Lunar. Yes, Lunar has some spells but overall going though all the levels. I am not staying it is bad (it is certainly A+ tier) just it is not that great to me (just me- but I love the themes).

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Reading through the comments section, I don't just think your opinion isn't unpopular, it's actually fairly common.

[@S0nyb1ack]

I think waxing and waning is still better then no feature at 6. As you said the free shield is the most likely default phase, but those schools aren't gteat for the cost reduction (of course exception happen depending on the situation). But if I have already used my shield and know i won't use the reduction on those schools, I will change if I find the reduction come up in a different school. The logic being: initially its a wash, but if I get one more use before the end of the day that I wouldn't have gotten with the initisl phase I still "gained" a sorcery point. Having 3 "extra points" and not using them is worse then having 1 or 2, but actually getting to use it ;) Of course I will also need the bonus action free whdn the situation comes, so plenty of limitations, but still better then not having the option...

[@TheAdditionalPylons]

Was waiting for you to say "Where the heck is moonbeam??" and was getting worried you didn't catch it until the end of the video lol.

[@sebastianduesing2150]

A minor benefit of the Lunar Empowerment (Full Moon) phase is that having advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks increases your Passive Perception by 5. Not a huge bonus, but given that it applies to all creatures within the area of light, it's a decent party buff in areas where you'd want more Passive Perception.

[@clenzen9930]

"Over the moon for this..." Ha!

[@rionnachelliot8951]

Now this with the new background that gives you two bonus feats does make this very much the most powerful sorcerer subclass. Though technically you don't have to have this subclass to play that background. But I was reading my digital copy of the book today and god damn that combo of the background + this subclass + variant human getting magic initiate. Then at 4th level you can either increase your stats or take metamagic adept. Both are super super good. Shadow touched is another great feat that could come either at 1st or 4th level that also adds more spells. Elemental adept if you wanted to focus in on it but probably not the best choice. Either way sorcerers are eating better than I did on thanksgiving yesterday.

[@yesile]

I have not seen the Lunar Sorcerer since the UA (and my friend and I were bemoaning them getting Death Ward at Level _5_ instead of 7; maybe an overreaction, but that was what we honed in on), but anyway, I watched this first, to see if it was still (in our eyes) overpowered, and it's good to see it isn't-if it ever was to begin with (we really might've been focusing too much on that Death Ward thing back then). As someone who never played a Sorcerer before (it's one of maybe three classes I haven't delved into), I did not know Clockwork and Aberrant Mind _could_ swap out spells of specific types, and with three different spell lists too. That's good to know if I ever _do_ finally get into Sorcerer. (I _adore_ Metamagic, but the subclasses just never spoke to me, sadly). Anyway, great video. Always a pleasure to see you dig into things from a logical perspective. RIP Moonbeam.

[@Ih8appls]

Would you consider making a video dividing ALL spells in DnD 5e into categories based on power/usefulness? Not ranking them, just Good/Situational/Bad, like you did in this video?

[@WanderingRagabond]

I really feel like WotC panicked with the Lunar Spells and hastily nerfed it by saddling it with terrible spells, as well as removing Moonbeam for truly unfathomable reasons. And I feel it was a mistake to make all spells accessible regardless of moon phase. Doing the opposite would make Waxing and Waning much more useful at earlier levels, since sometimes your battle plan involves casting a spell of one phase on the first round, and then casting a spell of another phase on the next.

[@carsonrush3352]

What I thought was interesting about the capstone feature is that you can use each feature once, and then using that feature a second time cost 5 sorcery points.

[@johngleeman8347]

If Lunar had the substitution clause for their bonus spells TM would be singing a different tune. XD

[@TreantmonksTemple]

True

[@ShadowGeek12]

Ill be honest this subclass actualy feels weaker than many other sorceror classes , id put divine soul above this, purely couse the expanded spell list is so bad they mightaswell not have it

[@SageDarkwind]

Well, someone can finally go: "In the name of the moon, I will punish you!"

[@JoeyTee420]

You said alter self is a bad spell, I would argue against that. Sure it is a higher level than disguise self, and does require concentration, but the key thing I think that makes it better than disguise self in key situations is the fact that it holds up to physical inspection.

[@stefanjrgensen6842]

also remember that lunar boons used to reduce the metamagic cost for evocation spells instead of enchantment spells and as some1 that tend to focus on spells i can twin and quicken etc.which tends to be evocation spells, this is a pretty big nerf for how i tend to make my sorcerers to the point where i would never pick a lunar sorcerer over a clockwork or aberrant mind sorcerer, i personally rank the lunar sorcerer pretty low as i cant see myself using the subclass' abilities very often and i would rank it on the lvl of shadow and divine soul sorc .

[@Cloudz2021]

Feels bad playing a subclass from the PBH. They really need an overhaul.

[@neileddy6159]

I like their kit, I just wish WotC had decided to follow the same formula they used for Ab Mind and Clockwork, which would make the discussion to add an extra thematic spell list to your older subclasses a much easier discussion.

[@caerdwyn7467]

I think that something was missed about Lunar Boons. You can reduce a twinned cantrip or twinned level 1 slot spell cost to zero sorcery points. At that point there is never a reason to not twin a single target cantrip that’s on the moon phase that’s active. The idea of gathering spell choices into groups for preparation is a good one, but needs refinement. I could see this being applied to Draconic Bloodline, for instance, to make that bloodline viable compared to Aberrant/Clockwork.

[@elliotbryant3459]

can only reduce point cost proficiency modifier number of times per long rest, so only 3-6 uses

[@caerdwyn7467]

@@elliotbryant3459 Which would be plenty in almost any conceivable situation. You'll be often casting your levelled spells, which wouldn't impact the zero-cost Twin, and if you run out of sorcery points you can always fall back on this. Consider by the time you're sixth level how many levelled spell slots you have, and even in a busy adventuring day how many rounds of combat through all of your encounters you'll have. Even if the round-count for the adventuring day is hitting a dozen, you're still not running dry.

[@Bew7]

Personally I would put it at the top of B tier, it's one of the more powerful sorcerer subclasses for sure,but it's not aberrant mind or clockwork soul. Great video as always dude

[@MrCactuar13]

I think when people hype up any given subclass as the best in the game, too broken, and ban-worthy, they need to stop and think "but does it compare to Peace domain?"

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yeah, we have subclasses that actually are broken-levels of power we can use for comparison.

[@DeadpoolAli]

@@TreantmonksTemple would you ever make a video for DM tactics concerning "OP" builds like Twilight/peace and flying characters. My players want to play some of these builds and I want to see it as their DM but also want to realistically challenge them.

[@comfortablegrey]

Another great video, this time regarding a black Friday deal subclass.

[@talukita1915]

The level 18 feature is good even with 5 SP in some situations because they don't count as spells, so you don't get limited down by the cantrip restriction. But yeah, it's level 18 which many campaigns will never get there anyway.

[@saprone8885]

Very well explained and good review of this subclass! I was really curious what you had to say, because before watching this I didn't know about the subclass. The way you present it is perfect! I have one question. The way I see it is that the Sacred Flame cantrip is probably the best spell to combine with Wall of Force, because it is the only spell that can still target an enemy inside a WoF after it has been trapped. It costs no spell slots and is easy to setup. I don't see anyone talking about it. Am I missing something and overhyping it? I hope you can give me more insight.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

Actually, I think Draconic sorcerer and Storm Sorcerer are both about on par with or better than this in a lot of circumstances, albeit with a much worse capstone for the draconic sorcerer (though most campaigns aren't getting to level 18 anyway). They both have some very useful features for helping to survive and deal some additional damage, and the spell list for Lunar sorcerers doesn't contain enough important spells that missing out is real issue. Really, the main standout feature for the Lunar sorcerer, which I really think you undersold in the video, is the reduced meta-magic costs at 6th level, which can be pretty powerful with some necromancy, enchantment, and transmutation spells, like blight, disintegrate, hold/dominate monster/person, and area effect spells. Being able to twin spell for 1 less sorcery point can be very relevant for single target spells, and free empowered spell is particularly good for spells that involve large dice/large numbers of dice in their damage rolls; it'll often net 5+ extra damage on spells. You could also always twin cast/careful spell + empower single target 1st level spells and cantrips of your current phase schools (mainly enchantment, necromancy, or transmutation), since the cost is reduced to 0. Empower spell in particular is good with the feature, since it can be done alongside other metamagic, letting you net save a sorcery point even after spending one to switch phases. With Quicken spell, you could actually save 4 sorcery points in a single turn with 2x empower spell + quicken spell + twin spell or careful spell. Granted, evocation magic being the school left out does mean you miss out on some of the best damage spells like fireball/lightning bolt. Being able to always twin cast + empower chill touch/mind sliver at no cost does result in some pretty good cantrip output, and you could quicken+empower chill touch/mind sliver and twin + empower the same cantrip again for only a single metamagic point, which is effectively 3 chill touches or mind slivers per round.

[@shearman360]

Waxing and Waning also gives you access to the spells of the moon phase you switch to so it isn't a terrible feature at all.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

You already have access. Your phase has nothing to do with that.

[@tridentgreen3346]

They slaughtered this thing's spell list from the UA, hot damn. It lost most of the useful spells like Mass Cure Wounds, Darkness, Faerie Fire, Sanctuary, Dissonant Whispers, Moonbeam. It got Shield and Dispel Magic, but I kinda feel sorry for it. Yeah, this is kinda sad now. I don't think it'll be too potent versus the other sorcerers.

[@seasonalgoblin1708]

It always surprises me when someone claims things are op in a game where your opponent is a thinking human.

[@GentleBreeze-72]

i really love the theme honestly. Power from the moon/s is really cool and as you pointed out where is moon beam? if other spells are reasonably bad and moon beam isnt that great why isnt it there which fits more the theme? anyway loved your analysis and breakdown. this was good ty.

[@DefinitivNichtSascha]

I really don't get how Moonbeam is not here in any way, shape, or form. It's not on the additional moon phase spells, and not even as a side note saying "Moonbeam is added to your list of Sorcerer Spells" so you could maybe take it like a regular spell. It's not like the spell is more powerful than other options Sorcerers have. This really bothers me on a personal level (though it's not as bad since it's not baked into the subclass there), because I play a Wizard who is themed around the sun, the moon, and stars, in flavour at least (and wizards studying the stars is not an uncommon concept). She can have Dawn and Sunbeam and Sunburst all she wants, Crown of Stars and Minute Meteors too, but the one bloody moon spell there is with Moonbeam, she cannot get by RAW, and I don't understand why, really. Luckily, our DM permitted me to have it as a Wizard spell for me.

[@demrandom]

Dumb point, but for lunar empowerment new moon: enemies without darkvision already have disadvantage to attack you in darkness, so this really only affects creatures with darkvision or other vision upgrades in darkness. Unlike shadowcraft mage in 3.5, where a shadow is enough, that makes this so thoroughly niche that you're only using it for the stealth advantage.

[@brunox794]

Actually Death Ward is pretty good on a Sorcerer because Extended Spell exists, you could cast the spell before a long rest and still get the benefits for the next day.

[@buraeen5735]

I think I would have rated this subclass slightly lower than you did, clearly not in league with the Tasha's ones but better than any others, I think that might be because trap features like waxing and waning get on my nerves because I have to see the disappointment from my players when they realize that thing isn't as cool as they thought it would be. I agree with all the points here though. Thanks for being a reasonable voice. 👍

[@DaDunge]

15:30 I think its a great feature. In that it's a well balanced feature. It's about the same powerlevel as the buffed acidsplash Alchemists get, maybe slightly weaker bit it's a better damage type and artificers get very few cantrip choices while the sorcerer get tons and this is free.

[@TwistedTentacleInn]

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. A lot of ado about nothing. It's a good subclass, but nothing worthy of a ban. - The Innkeeper

[@Hotoit]

With the sorcerer spell retraining options, wouldn’t you be allowed to retrain these spells and with other choices from the sorcerer list? Making it better then what it seems