The Lutheran View of Irresistible Grace

[@michaelslater5524]

It would be dubious, I think, to speak of a single Lutheran view on this issue. Luther himself affirmed a monergistic view of salvation, but later Lutheran orthodoxy (especially later theologians like David Hollaz) implicitly-even if not explicitly-affirmed a synergistic view, insofar as they taught that the human will is capable of rejecting justification (and faith) after regeneration. (Regeneration is prior to faith and justification in Lutheran orthodoxy.) This view was developed partly (if not largely) in response to the Reformed teaching of irresistible grace, as a way of distinguishing Lutheran and Reformed theology in a period when such distinctions were sociologically important. But this development in Lutheran theology implies that salvation depends in part on a human contribution, namely the assent of the regenerated human will, which is free either to repent and believe (and be justified) after regeneration, or not. Alister McGrath has an insightful discussion of this later development in Lutheran theology in his book Iustitia Dei, 4th edition, pp. 243-246.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

If one goes back to the beginning of the Reformation when Luther had severed his ties with the pope through his insistence that Christians are justified by grace alone through faith alone one finds that Lutheranism endorsed both irresistible grace and double predestination. This is what Luther affirmed in his reply to Erasmus in The Bondage of the Will. However a few years later Melanchthon started undermining this, and after Luther's death he insisted that there must be a cause in man to account for why some are saved and others aren't. He started teaching synergism - that conversion is due to a person giving assent to the Gospel. After this one of Melanchthon’s pupils Martin Chemnitz came to the fore and was entrusted to write a confessional document which would set out clearly the Lutheran position on various topics including predestination and grace. Basically what happened is that Chemnitz amalgamated Luther's doctrine of predestination with Melanchthon’s synergism and formulated a contradictory position whereby people are saved through divine predestination but are damned through free will. According to Chemnitz the Holy Spirit operates universally through the Gospel and endeavours to convert everyone who hears the Gospel, and that damnation is due to resisting the Holy Spirit (i.e. universal resistible grace). However since Chemnitz rightly taught that all men are opposed to God through original sin it follows logically that no one can actually be saved through resistible grace as everyone will resist. It has to be the case then that conversion is irresistible which is what Luther defended. However Chemnitz was so opposed to the idea that anyone is predestined to be damned which automatically follows from irresistible grace, that he just refused to contemplate it and continued to insist that grace is universal and resistible and people are only predestined to be saved but not damned. It's illogical but he managed to convince his followers that the fact that it lacks logical coherence isn't a hindrance to it being true which of course is completely absurd. So this is why later Lutheranism after Chemnitz wrote the Formula of Concord deviates significantly from the original Lutheranism of Luther (i.e. genuine Lutheranism).

[@jeffryan5302]

@@Edward-ng8oo thanks for this historical context and distinction between Luther’s Bondage of the Will ( to damnation ) unless regenerated by election or monergism; I only pray that Dr. J will not loose his salvation, but persevere as a Calvinist to the end…!

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@jeffryan5302 Without specifically commenting on anyone in particular, my conviction is that those who don't believe what Scripture teaches on predestination or any other doctrine when they've been instructed in it, don't have the Holy Spirit. So for instance someone abandoning a belief in double predestination and particular irresistible conversion and opting to believe in single predestination and universal resistible conversion won't have been converted and have the Holy Spirit. The reason it seems to me why someone would do such a thing is because they doubt their salvation and universal resistible conversion gives them the illusion of having been converted because they're not conscious of ever having resisted. So it's a comforting thing to believe by those who are unregenerate that God hasn't predestined anyone to be damned and the only way they can be damned is if they consciously resist the Holy Spirit. They can convince themselves that they're regenerate when in actual fact they're not. Also my conviction is that so-called mental illness isn't an illness of the mind or the brain but is due to the invasion of evil spirits who influence or control the mind in various ways. Those who hear voices are really hearing the words of evil spirits, those who are severely depressed are being oppressed by evil spirits, those who suffer from OCD are being controlled by evil spirits to think irrationally. My belief is that generally speaking those who suffer in this way don't have the Holy Spirit as if they had they wouldn't be suffering like they are. And I’ve suffered from OCD myself in the past. My view is that the majority of those who subscribe to the teaching on predestination and grace in the Formula of Concord aren't actually true Christians. They've simply convinced themselves they're regenerate when they're not. I’m not denying that there will be some who are regenerate Christians amongst them but they’ll be those who have a lack of understanding and who if they were correctly instructed would embrace the truth.

[@judahlabrie4593]

I agree with Calvin and Lutheran… I like both points. ❤

[@danielbui-tx5ht]

agreed

[@Edward-ng8oo]

Calvin believed in particular irresistible grace as did Luther, whereas so-called confessional Lutherans believe in universal resistible grace ,so since they're opposed to each other it doesn't make sense that you should like both. You should only like the true doctrine which is taught in Scripture which is particular irresistible grace. If grace was actually universal and resistible then no one would be saved as everyone is depraved and is opposed to God and would resist grace. Only if conversion to Christ is irresistible can people come to faith in Christ and be saved. Luther in The Bondage of the Will taught that the Holy Spirit irresistibly regenerates the elect by the Holy Spirit and leaves the non-elect unconverted so that they're not saved. He affirmed double predestination. Confessional Lutherans so called aren't genuine Lutherans. They follow the teaching contained in the Formula of Concord which was drawn up more than 30 years after Luther's death. It teaches that God hasn't predestined anyone to be damned and that the Holy Spirit is always efficacious through the Word neither of which is true. The Scriptures teach double predestination and irresistible grace. Romans 9 and John 6 for instance teach this.

[@BartinButher]

As a Lutheran myself, I do have this genuine thought with regard to irresistable grace; I'd greatly appreciate it if you took the time to answer this either in reply to this comment or in a short video if you think the thought is useful enough to answer more publicly for the channel. Thanks for all the work that you do. In my study of Lutheran theology, while this has nowhere been explicitly stated by any Lutheran theologian that I personally have seen, I don't currently see how a Lutheran, consistent with their own theology, can reject the idea that predestination is irresistable. From what I understand about Lutheran theology, Lutheranism teaches that God does have a particular people that He has elected and that none of them will fall away due to God's grace keeping them in the faith unto the end. This is solely a work of God, the initial saving and also persevering the believer in the faith to the end. For the elect, though the elect, of themselves, since they are sinners, of course are able to resist, and indeed resist every day, they *are not able* to resist unto falling away for good. God, by His grace, for the elect, prevents this from taking place. This, to me, sounds like irresistable predestination; an elect individual cannot reject their own election, and I think it is clear from Scripture and our confession that God electing someone to salvation is an immeasurable work of grace. What do you think of this thought? Are there any books or articles addressing this particular thought from a Lutheran perspective that you have seen? Thanks again Dr. Cooper.

[@hjc1402]

I think the problem is you’re employing a Calvinistic understanding of election. In Calvinism God elects and therefore one will persevere. In Lutheranism, the one who perseveres and in the last day is in Christ is the one elected. So election is in view of Christ, those who are in Him by grace alone. It’s not the other way around that those who persevere do so in view of their election. God doesn’t arbitrarily pick some individuals for election and thus make them persevere without any possibility of resistance. God gives grace for salvation to all and grace for perseverance to all. Those who are in the end in Christ are the ones elected. You can resist that along the way though and not be in Christ in the end.

[@hjc1402]

I would recommend reading Cooper’s book the Great Divide for a great explanation between the Calvinist and Lutheran understanding of election, resistible grace, and so on. For some articles that touch on this topic through discussion of the wedding parable, google “Many are called but few are chosen godwithuslc” “Many are called but few are chosen mountziongreenfield” “Many are called but few are chosen Rolf preus Christforus”

[@hjc1402]

I would recommend reading Cooper’s book the Great Divide for a great explanation between the Calvinist and Lutheran understanding of election, resistible grace, and so on. For some articles that touch on this topic through discussion of the wedding parable, search “Many are called but few are chosen godwithuslc” “Many are called but few are chosen mountziongreenfield” (article not video) “Many are called but few are chosen Rolf preus Christforus”

[@hjc1402]

I would recommend reading Cooper’s book the Great Divide for a great explanation between the Calvinist and Lutheran understanding of election, resistible grace, and so on. For some articles that touch on this topic through discussion of the wedding parable, type “Many are called but few are chosen godwithuslc” “Many are called but few are chosen mountziongreenfield” (article not video) “Many are called but few are chosen Rolf preus Christforus”

[@BartinButher]

@@hjc1402 I understand Lutheranism has a bit of a difference with Calvinism with regard to predestination in that in Lutheranism, election is in view of Christ, whereas in Calvinism, Christ is basically made to be the means of fulfilling God's absolute decree. My issue is, I don't think that makes a difference here. In Lutheranism, if one has been elected in and unto Christ, they cannot reject their election. God, by His grace in Christ, through the means of grace, His Word and Sacraments, will persevere the elect unto the end. From what you have described, it sounds to me like there is a hint of intuitu fidei, or something like it, in your understanding of the difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism (If this is a misunderstanding of what you're saying, please correct me). It almost sounds like you're saying God elects those who persevere in Christ unto the end. While I recognize that that is historically a position that has been taken by many Lutherans throughout history and is a legitimately Lutheran perspective to take (my favorite Lutheran theologian, Johann Gerhard, takes that position for example), it is not the only position a Lutheran can take on predestination. I myself do not take it. The position taken in On Conversion and Election by Francis Pieper is more the position I personally take. That position, which states that God elects people unto Christ, solely on the basis and in view of His merit, and those people who He elects will endure in the faith unto the end through God's Word and Sacraments. To me, this sounds like irresistable predestination. Thanks for the reply, I hope I'm speaking clearly enough on where I am right now in my thinking. Still thinking through this myself.

[@IdlePeasant]

@Dr. Jordan B Cooper, you say that Lutherans are more Augustinian and therefore do not believe in irresistible grace. However, didn't Augustine teach a perspective very similar to that of irresistible grace? From St. Augustine's, "A Treatise on Rebuke and Grace" Chapter 45, "It is not, then, to be doubted that men's wills cannot, so as to prevent His doing what he wills, withstand the will of God, who has done all things whatsoever He pleased in heaven and in earth, and who also has done those things that are to come; Isaiah 45:11 since He does even concerning the wills themselves of men what He will, when He will. Unless, perchance (to mention some things among many), when God willed to give the kingdom to Saul, it was so in the power of the Israelites, as it certainly was placed in their will, either to subject themselves or not to the man in question, that they could even prevail to withstand God. God, however, did not do this, save by the will of the men themselves, because he beyond doubt had the most omnipotent power of inclining men's hearts whither it pleased Him. For thus it is written: And Samuel sent the people away, and every one went away unto his own place. And Saul went away to his house in Gibeah: and there went away with Saul mighty men, whose hearts the Lord touched. And pestilent children said, Who shall save us? This man? And they despised him, and brought him no presents. Will any one say that any of those whose hearts the Lord touched to go with Saul would not have gone with him, or that any of those pestilent fellows, whose hearts He did not touch to do this, would have gone? Of David also, whom the Lord ordained to the kingdom in a more prosperous succession, we read thus: And David continued to increase, and was magnified, and the Lord was with him. 1 Chronicles 11:9 This having been premised, it is said a little afterwards, And the Spirit clothed Amasai, chief of the thirty, and he said, We are yours, O David, and we will be with you, O son of Jesse: Peace, peace be unto you, and peace be to your helpers; because the Lord has helped you. 1 Chronicles 12:18 Could he withstand the will of God, and not rather do the will of Him who wrought in his heart by His Spirit, with which he was clothed, to will, speak, and do thus? Moreover, a little afterwards the same Scripture says, All these warlike men, setting the battle in array, came with a peaceful heart to Hebron to establish David over all Israel. 1 Chronicles 12:38 By their own will, certainly, they appointed David king. Who cannot see this? Who can deny it? For they did not do it under constraint or without good-will, since they did it with a peaceful heart. And yet He wrought this in them who works what He will in the hearts of men. For which reason the Scripture premised, And David continued to increase, and was magnified, and the Lord Omnipotent was with him. And thus the Lord Omnipotent, who was with him, induced these men to appoint him king. And how did He induce them? Did He constrain thereto by any bodily fetters? He wrought within; He held their hearts; He stirred their hearts, and drew them by their own wills, which He Himself wrought in them. If, then, when God wills to set up kings in the earth, He has the wills of men more in His power than they themselves have, who else causes rebuke to be wholesome and correction to result in the heart of him that is rebuked, that he may be established in the kingdom of heaven?" And previously in Chapter 43, "But when men either come or return into the way of righteousness by means of rebuke, who is it that works salvation in their hearts but that God who gives the increase, whoever plants and waters, and whoever labours on the fields or shrubs - that God whom no man's will resists when He wills to give salvation? For so to will or not to will is in the power of Him who wills or wills not, as not to hinder the divine will nor overcome the divine power. For even concerning those who do what He wills not, He Himself does what He will."

[@Edward-ng8oo]

Luther in The Bondage of the Will maintained that Scripture teaches irresistible grace and double predestination, but those who call themselves confessional Lutherans don't follow Luther in this. They subscribe to the teaching contained in the Formula of Concord which was drawn up over 30 years after Luther's death. The principal author of this, Martin Chemnitz, rejected irresistible grace and formulated the doctrine of resistible grace and the universal operation of the Holy Spirit in the means of grace (Gospel and sacraments). According to him the Holy Spirit is always efficacious in the Word and everyone can potentially be saved, and only resistance to the Holy Spirit causes a person to be damned. However Lutherans also agree (rightly) with total depravity because of original sin and that everyone is naturally resistant to believing in Christ, so one has the absurd situation that logically no one can be saved according to their beliefs because everyone is going to resist grace which according to them is resistible. They admit that they can't explain how anyone is saved. To not be able to explain how anyone is saved invalidates their theology as defective. It simply can't be the case that both total depravity and resistible conversion are both true. Since total depravity is true it follows that resistible conversion must be untrue, which it is according to Scripture. All those who are drawn by the Father are converted and believe in Christ, and those who aren't drawn by the Father are unconverted and remain in their unbelief to be damned (John 6). Conversion is therefore irresistible

[@almostthere3733]

Have you made a video on the dangers of the "Historical Critical Method" that so many faiths have succumbed to, essentially denying Scripture's truth in Ephesians 2: 8-9?

[@Based_Lutheran]

Question from a fellow Lutheran (LCMS): What was the reason Luther condoned polygamy at one point in time? I would love to hear you speak about this in a video.

[@WaterMelon-Cat]

Technically there is no biblical passages that outright ban polygamy. Luther did say that surely a Christian should only have one wife though, as a sign of commitment and to resist the temptation of excess.

[@TETC]

Can you clarify something for me? Every time baptism is administered to a child in a Lutheran church will the child be saved? Such that in the case of baptism for children it is always irresistible?

[@Edward-ng8oo]

I can give you what Luther believed about infant baptism, but confessional Lutherans who subscribe to The Formula of Concord which teaches that regeneration by the Holy Spirit is resistible can't account for how anyone is regenerated and saved. They believe that the Holy Spirit is always efficacious in the Word and sacraments, and that those who are damned have brought damnation upon themselves by resisting the Holy Spirit. But at the same time they also hold (rightly) that everyone through original sin is an enemy of God and by nature is resistant to God, so it follows from their beliefs that no one can be converted or regenerated in baptism. They openly admit that their theology can't explain how anyone is saved. It's really absurd what they believe. Luther on the other hand believed in irresistible grace and double predestination, and he explains in his large catechism that God regenerates only some infants through baptism. He rejected that the Holy Spirit operates universally through the Gospel and sacraments. The Holy Spirit isn't always efficacious through these means of grace. But rather the Holy Spirit irresistibly regenerates those who are elected to be saved and the non-elect are left in their unconverted state.

[@jeffryan5302]

Dr C, as a Calvinist (soteriology) speaking for others watching your channel, I believe all of us appreciate your time, energy and dedication to produce this content…! I only pray based on your view of soteriology, that you don’t loose your salvation…but believe and trust in what Jesus says ! John 6:37-40 (ESV) [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[@anglicanaesthetics]

Yeah I dont think Lutherans are actually different from Calvinists on the predestination of the elect and the infallibility of grace. Lutherans, like Thomists and Calvinists, would say that grace cannot fail to bring the elect to final salvation. So it's just as "irresistible" or, more accurately (for the Reformed and Lutheran) "infallible", as the Reformed would have it.

[@williampeters9838]

No Lutherans believe that people can reject the Holy Spirit after having shared in it as it says in Hebrews.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

The important thing to understand about what confessional Lutherans believe about predestination and grace is that what they believe doesn't make logical sense. They follow the teaching contained in the Formula of Concord written after Luther's death and which contradicts Luther's teaching in The Bondage of the Will. Luther held (rightly) that the Scriptures teach irresistible grace and double predestination, but those who came after Luther rejected that God has predestined anyone to be damned and insisted that grace is universal and resistible. However they also believe (rightly) that everyone is depraved through original sin and is naturally resistant to believing in Christ, so it follows that if grace is resistible then no one can actually be converted to faith in Christ, as everyone will resist believing in Christ. Confessional Lutherans admit that they can't explain how anyone is saved. They just have this belief that somehow in some mysterious way that defies logical analysis that God can convert the elect and predestine them to be saved. It's absurd and delusional but Martin Chemnitz managed to convince a large number of people who were superficially identified as Lutherans that what he was teaching is true, when logically it's nonsense. The masterstroke that Chemnitz managed to pull off though was to convince his followers that truth doesn't need to be logical. Once people have been convinced that theology doesn't need to make logical sense then they'll believe whatever they're told to believe. The truth is that confessional Lutherans aren't actually Lutherans. A Lutheran by any normal definition is someone who agrees with Luther, but they don't agree with Luther, they agree with Chemnitz who contradicted Luther's teaching in The Bondage of the Will. So they're not genuine Lutherans.

[@S..527]

As a calvinist I will irresistibly disagree.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

As someone who agrees with original Lutheranism as taught by Luther (which teaches irresistible grace and double predestination), and who disagrees with the reformulated version of Lutheranism taught in the Formula of Concord, I will also irresistibly disagree.

[@nilsalmgren4492]

Lutherans teach the the sacrament of baptism allows faith, so a work of God through the actions of man. It is the reason for infant baptism. Man applies God's grace.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

The twin beliefs of resistible regeneration and total depravity which are held by confessional Lutherans mean they can't account for how anyone can be saved. What I mean is that since everyone due to original sin is an enemy of God and naturally resistant to believing in Christ it requires that conversion be irresistible in order to come to faith and believe in Christ. Luther taught irresistible grace and double predestination in The Bondage of the Will and I agree with him, and don't agree with the teaching of universal resistible grace and single predestination taught in the Formula of Concord. If an infant is to be regenerated through baptism then it's necessary that he's irresistibly regenerated because all infants are born with original sin and an inborn resistance to God. None of them would be regenerated in baptism if regeneration could be resisted.

[@nilsalmgren4492]

@@Edward-ng8oo There are plenty of people today who get baptized after belief. As a matter of fact for adults a profession of faith is generally asked before baptism.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@nilsalmgren4492 Yes but the fact that adults come to faith, assuming it's genuine faith, proves that the Lutheran belief in resistible grace is false. Because it's impossible for anyone to truly believe in Christ without them being irresistibly converted given the fact that everyone through original sin is hostile to God and totally resistant to believing in Christ. Do you see what I’m saying? If total depravity is true, which it is as it's taught in Scripture (and confessional Lutherans accept that it is true) then it requires that conversion to faith in Christ is worked irresistibly in people's hearts to overcome their hostility to God. If the Holy Spirit could be resisted as Lutherans say He can be, then no one could be converted to faith in Christ. Everyone would remain as unbelievers with their hostility towards God intact, and no adult could make a true profession of faith in Christ and seek baptism. It's necessary that conversion, or regeneration, or being born again, (however it's worded) is worked by the Holy Spirit irresistibly in people’s hearts to overcome their inbuilt hostility towards God due to the fact that everyone is born with original sin which has corrupted everyone’s human nature since the Fall of Adam. So it's impossible that grace can be resisted otherwise no one could become a true Christian and believe in Christ. So the fact that Christians exist proves that the Lutheran belief that the Holy Spirit can be resisted in conversion is false. The Holy Spirit doesn't operate resistibly in the means of grace. He operates irresistibly. And therefore He doesn't operate universally through the Word and sacraments. He operates only selectively in the hearts of those God has elected to save, and the Holy Spirit does so irresistibly so that all those who the Father wills to convert to Christ come to Christ with no possibility that they don't come to Christ. If the Holy Spirit tried to convert everyone through the Word and could be resisted then He couldn't convert the elect. All those who God had elected to save would just remain unbelievers and God's enemies. It has to be that conversion is irresistible. Irresistible conversion is what Scripture teaches. All those who the Father draws to Christ believe in Christ and all those who aren't drawn to Christ by the Father remain as unbelievers (John 6:44,64-65). The High Spirit is only efficacious in the Word towards those the Father wills to convert. Those who the Father doesn't will to convert when they hear the Word the Holy Spirit isn't working through it to convert them. The doctrine of the universal operation of the Holy Spirit in the means of grace (taught in the Formula of Concord) is false. The Formula of Concord (FC) teaches false doctrine when it teaches universal grace and single predestination. Luther on the other hand didn't teach any false doctrine. In The Bondage of the Will he taught irresistible grace and double predestination. Those who believe that the FC teaches true doctrine on grace and predestination aren't Luther's true followers. They've been deceived by Martin Chemnitz (the principal author of the FC) into believing that double predestination and irresistible grace is Calvinist false doctrine when it's true doctrine which Luther also taught. Luther and the early Lutherans were all believers in predestination to both heaven and hell and irresistible grace. The FC denial of this means that those who go by the name of confessional Lutherans aren't in reality Lutherans, and nor are they truly confessional since the FC rejects irresistible grace which is taught in the Augsburg Confession. Article 5 teaches particular irresistible grace not universal resistible grace. Those who go by the name of confessional Lutherans wouldn't be recognised by Luther as Lutherans if he was alive now. He would disown them all as followers of Chemnitz, and not his followers.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

Yes but the fact that adults come to faith, assuming it's genuine faith, proves that the Lutheran belief in resistible grace is false. Because it's impossible for anyone to truly believe in Christ without them being irresistibly converted given the fact that everyone through original sin is hostile to God and totally resistant to believing in Christ. Do you see what I’m saying? If total depravity is true, which it is as it's taught in Scripture (and confessional Lutherans accept that it is true) then it requires that conversion to faith in Christ is worked irresistibly in people's hearts to overcome their hostility to God. If the Holy Spirit could be resisted as Lutherans say He can be, then no one could be converted to faith in Christ. Everyone would remain as unbelievers with their hostility towards God intact, and no adult could make a true profession of faith in Christ and seek baptism. It's necessary that conversion, or regeneration, or being born again, (however it's worded) is worked by the Holy Spirit irresistibly in people’s hearts to overcome their inbuilt hostility towards God due to the fact that everyone is born with original sin which has corrupted everyone’s human nature since the Fall of Adam. So it's impossible that grace can be resisted otherwise no one could become a true Christian and believe in Christ. So the fact that Christians exist proves that the Lutheran belief that the Holy Spirit can be resisted in conversion is false. The Holy Spirit doesn't operate resistibly in the means of grace. He operates irresistibly. And therefore He doesn't operate universally through the Word and sacraments. He operates only selectively in the hearts of those God has elected to save, and the Holy Spirit does so irresistibly so that all those who the Father wills to convert to Christ come to Christ with no possibility that they don't come to Christ. If the Holy Spirit tried to convert everyone through the Word and could be resisted then He couldn't convert the elect. All those who God had elected to save would just remain unbelievers and God's enemies. It has to be that conversion is irresistible. Irresistible conversion is what Scripture teaches. All those who the Father draws to Christ believe in Christ and all those who aren't drawn to Christ by the Father remain as unbelievers (John 6:44,64-65). The Holy Spirit is only efficacious in the Word towards those the Father wills to convert. Those who the Father doesn't will to convert when they hear the Word the Holy Spirit isn't working through it to convert them. The doctrine of the universal operation of the Holy Spirit in the means of grace (taught in the Formula of Concord) is false. The Formula of Concord (FC) teaches false doctrine when it teaches universal grace and single predestination. Luther on the other hand didn't teach any false doctrine. In The Bondage of the Will he taught irresistible grace and double predestination. Those who believe that the FC teaches true doctrine on grace and predestination aren't Luther's true followers. They've been deceived by Martin Chemnitz (the principal author of the FC) into believing that double predestination and irresistible grace is Calvinist false doctrine when it's true doctrine which Luther also taught. Luther and the early Lutherans were all believers in predestination to both heaven and hell and irresistible grace. The FC denial of this means that those who go by the name of confessional Lutherans aren't in reality Lutherans, and nor are they truly confessional since the FC rejects irresistible grace which is taught in the Augsburg Confession. Article 5 teaches particular irresistible grace not universal resistible grace. Those who go by the name of confessional Lutherans wouldn't be recognised by Luther as Lutherans if he was alive now. He would disown them all as followers of Chemnitz, and not his followers.

[@nilsalmgren4492]

@@Edward-ng8oo Really I leave the God stuff to God. We are people and I do not believe God is a watch maker and just letting the world He created with universal rules like predestination applies to all evenly. It may be true, it may not be true. I leave that to God because it does not apply to me, a created being. My point is that any claims that cannot be backed by scripture that are plainly stated are not really to be argued about. Romans 14 is one of the most ignored chapters in the Bible. My point was that the Lutheran teaching on the need for infant baptism because only baptism leads to faith in God and Jesus as our intercessor between us and God is false. Placing clergy between us and Jesus is also false since we are all members of the body of Christ. We are grafted directly into God's vine, not into the Lutheran church that is then grafted into God's vine.

[@jfkmuldermedia]

I am not sure this is correct, Dr. Cooper. The Word of God in baptism is stronger than the sinfulness of the infant. The child's sinfulness can thus not resist or withstand the child being regenerated by the sacrament. Thus, irresistable sacramental grace.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

Luther believed in double predestination and irresistible grace (he taught these in The Bondage of the Will), but confessional Lutherans (so-called) believe in single predestination and universal resistible grace as taught in the Formula of Concord (FC), so when they refer to Luther's catechisms and say that infants are regenerated through the Word in the water this can only be true if regeneration is irresistible since everyone is completely resistant to God and totally depraved, as confessional Lutherans also hold. Therefore, given the fact that they believe (rightly) in total depravity and believe (wrongly) in universal resistible grace it's impossible according to their theology that anyone can be regenerated. They admit that they can't explain how anyone is saved and they've coined a Latin phrase to refer to this: the Crux Theologorum (the cross of the theologians). So they admit they can't explain how anyone can be regenerated in baptism when everyone is born with original sin and are God's enemies. The truth is that infants can only be regenerated in baptism by the Holy Spirit operating irresistibly in the hearts of those infants who God has elected to save, and that non-elect infants aren't regenerated through baptism. The problem is that those who subscribe to the FC have been convinced by faulty exegesis that God hasn't predestined anyone to be damned, and that the Holy Spirit can be resisted in conversion, when neither is Scripturally true. And what complicates the situation even more is that generally speaking confessional Lutherans have been deceived into thinking that Luther was also in agreement with this teaching in the FC when he wasn't.

[@jfkmuldermedia]

Hi Edward@@Edward-ng8oo . Have you ever studied the Augsburg Confession that Philipp Melanchthon drew up? Next question: Did you know that John Calvin put his signature to it?

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@jfkmuldermedia Yes I’ve studied the Augsburg Confession. I’m a Lutheran in that I agree with Luther's teaching in The Bondage of the Will and I agree with the doctrines contained in the Book of Concord, except for the Formula of Concord, which was drawn up several decades after Luther's death and which is in disagreement with the Augsburg Confession. The AG doesn't teach universal resistible grace, but in article 5 teaches irresistible particular grace, so I can understand why Calvin agreed with it. I vaguely knew that he had approved of it, but didn't know he had put his signature to it. I don't agree with limited atonement but from what I can gather there seems to be some doubt as to whether Calvin actually taught it. I don't agree with his teaching on the Lord's Supper though and to be honest I can't accept that he was a true Christian.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

I don't accept that the Formula of Concord is right Scripturally in teaching that the Holy Spirit is always efficacious through the Gospel and sacraments. The doctrine of the universal operation of the Holy Spirit in the means of grace is basically wrong and has caused those who believe it to come to wrong conclusions. Because they believe that the Holy Spirit tries to convert everyone through the Gospel it naturally follows that irresistible grace can't be true, and that unbelief must be caused by resistance to being born again (being regenerated) by the Holy Spirit. And following on from this that double predestination can't be true because God can't have willed that anyone should be damned seeing as He wills to convert everyone by the Holy Spirit. If one studies The Bondage of the Will however one finds that Luther rejected that the Holy Spirit works universally through the Word. Luther held that regeneration is irresistible, and that some people are predestined to be damned because the Holy Spirit is withheld from them. I think Luther was right to understand Romans 9 and John 6:44 as teaching double predestination and irresistible grace. Luther understood those verses which say that God desires the salvation of everyone to refer only to God's revealed will in Christ, and that God by His hidden will has determined the destiny of everyone in either heaven or hell. The Formula of Concord however has misinterpreted those verses which speak of God's desire to save everyone to imply that God hasn't willed by His hidden will to damn anyone. This is simply wrong. God has predestined some to be damned. Paul teaches in Romans 9 that God only has mercy on some people, not everyone, and that those God doesn't have mercy upon are formed into vessels of dishonour and prepared for destruction (hell) by God. The FC interpretation that those who are damned have prepared themselves for destruction contradicts Paul’s teaching. So I just don't accept that the FC is correct Scripturally in teaching resistible grace and single predestination. I’m convinced that Scripture teaches irresistible grace and double predestination.

[@BartinButher]

I saw your comment under my thread. I won't respond to the Scripture references you gave only because I don't believe that having a debate over the meaning of Scripture in a YT comment section would be overly fruitful. Regarding Luther's understanding of double predestination, while Bondage of the Will is certainly a work of his that massively suggests a more reformed understanding of predestination, I would encourage you to read some of Luther's works on the sacraments or just more of Luther in general. Just find the Word and Sacrament section in the Luther's Works American translation set for those books; plenty of great material there. Luther believed the Holy Spirit effectually works through God's Word and Sacraments to bring everyone hearing/receiving those things to faith in Christ. Those writings of his in those books will show this I believe, but I leave it to you to see for yourself if you desire to do a study of Luther's theology. A potential pitfall one can fall into (and many do) is using Bondage of the Will as a final definitive statement of Luther's theology on predestination. As central and influential as the work is in the history of the reformation and in reformed circles, from what I understand, it's just not a very good definitive book of Luther's theology. Luther wrote the book extremely fast and it is obvious to anyone who reads it that Luther was upset (to say the least) when he wrote it. Luther exaggerates when he is upset. My personal favorite example of Luther going off the deep end when he is upset is when he responded to the peasant's revolt that was taking place in his day, he told the soldiers that they would earn heaven by killing the peasants (and that was not just a one off statement either, he wrote a small treatise addressing the peasant's revolt). So can one say from this that Luther rejects justification by faith alone? Of course not. So, I would be cautious with using Bondage of the Will as Luther's definitive statement on predestination. Not at all trying to say it's to be cast aside as not worth taking into account either. Don't ignore it obviously, but don't think it's a sufficient statement of Luther's theology on predestination either. Luther most certainly believed that all who hear God's Word and receive His sacraments are effectually being called to Christ by the Holy Spirit. Check out the books I mentioned, it's good stuff regardless.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@BartinButher I’ve read through What Luther Says (over 1600 pages) which is a collection of direct quotes from Luther's writings which include quotes on the sacraments and I've never read anything in this book which contradicts what He maintained is true in The Bondage of the Will. He maintained in The Bondage of the Will that Scripture teaches that God is omnipotent and has willed and foreknown everything that's going to happen, that His foreknowledge necessitates everything happening as it does, that everything is predestined to happen from eternity, that everyone is predestined to be either saved or damned, and that consequently there's no free will involved in either salvation or damnation. Also Luther is on record as having said before his death that he was sure that what he'd written against Erasmus is the absolute truth, and that of all his writings he would retain only The Bondage of the Will and his catechisms. So I simply don't believe that Luther endorsed that the Holy Spirit is efficacious through the Word towards everyone. I believe he's been misunderstood and that he can only have been referring to Christians when he said that the Holy Spirit is efficacious through the Word and sacraments. So I disagree with you that Luther’s Bondage of the Will isn't a definitive statement of his position on predestination. I’m certain that Martin Chemnitz, who was the principal author of the Formula of Concord, taught unscriptural doctrine when he argued that the Holy Spirit in conversion can be resisted. If that was actually the case then God couldn't predestine anyone to be saved as people could thwart His will and remain unconverted. Conversion has to be irresistible otherwise God couldn't elect anyone to be saved. Also it follows from the fact that no one can resist being converted that those who aren't converted are predestined to be damned. Irresistible grace and double predestination are two sides of the same thing. One can't exist without the other. If grace is irresistible (which it is) then it follows that those who don't believe are predestined to be damned.

[@BartinButher]

@@Edward-ng8oo Don't read a quote book as the way to study someone's theology (don't use a quote book like that for anyone really, not just Luther). Read full books of Luther more than just Bondage of the Will. Check out the American Edition of Luther's Works (the series is called Luther's Works) and read those. Tons of material. Go to the Word and Sacrament volumes in it. In Luther's Catechisms (both of which are in the Lutheran confessions) as well as the various books and treatises in the Word and Sacrament books, Luther affirms that in baptism, the Holy Spirit works to regenerate everyone who is baptized, and in the Lord's Supper, Christ is truly and graciously present and is given to everyone to eat and drink for the forgiveness of sins, which goes wholly against the reformed doctrine of double predestination. Regarding what Scripture teaches, again I'll just say I don't want to debate Scripture in a YT comment thread. For what Luther believes, which is all I'm really wanting to comment on, read his actual writings in full; quote books are never to be used for studying what someone's theology is. There are tons of writings of Luther easily available (both of his catechisms are free online actually). Don't just refer to Bondage of the Will as the end all be all of Luther's theology. It is not.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

​@@BartinButherAlso I don't accept that the Augsburg Confession teaches the universal operation of the Holy Spirit in the means of grace. Article 5 states "To obtain such faith God instituted the office of the ministry, that is, provided the Gospel and the sacraments. Through these, as through means, he gives the Holy Spirit, who works faith, when and where he pleases, in those who hear the Gospel” (Tappert). This teaches that the Holy Spirit is sent by God to convert only those whom God is pleased to give faith to, and at the time of His choosing. Similarly Luther in His large catechism said this with respect to infant baptism: “We bring the child with the purpose and hope that he may believe, and we pray God to grant him faith” and “That the baptism of infants is pleasing to Christ is sufficiently proved from his own work. God has sanctified many who have been thus baptized and has given them the Holy Spirit.” So although Luther held that baptism regenerates infants he didn't hold that all infants are regenerated through baptism, but that only those are regenerated who it pleases God to regenerate, and that in respect to individual infants one should pray that it is God's will to grant them faith. So I don't accept that the Formula of Concord teaches in line with the rest of the Book of Concord. The FC has reinterpreted Lutheranism and has introduced false doctrine which has nullified genuine Lutheranism as taught by Luther and the early Lutherans.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@BartinButher I agree that The Bondage of the Will isn't the sum total of Luther's theology. I never suggested that it was. However this book is definitive of his position on predestination which he never deviated from. I’ve read a fair number of other things that Luther has written over the years. I consider myself to be a Lutheran but just not a confessional one if by that term is meant someone who subscribes unconditionally to the Formula of Concord. I agree with the rest of the Book of Concord though. I think What Luther Says gives a good insight into Luther's teaching on a whole range of different topics and that it's a valuable resource especially if one hasn't got the time to read through Luther's Works.

[@jeffryan5302]

Ditto ! Pray for those Lutherans that will be saved Biblically and soteriological…

[@BereanFellowship]

What does it matter what the Lutheran's believe? Luther himself taught irresistible grace, read bondage of the will

[@dafang1]

Dr. Cooper has already read it and found it poorly written.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

​@@dafang1I’ve read it and think it's a brilliant book, and lots of others think so as well. Luther was sure that what he'd written is the absolute truth, and I agree it is. Luther showed from Scripture that there's no free will involved in either salvation or damnation because God has predestined people to heaven and hell. Only those who disagree with this are likely to think that it's not an impressive book. For me what ranks as not worth reading because it's full of false reasoning and misinterpretations of Scripture is the 11th article on election in the Formula of Concord. Its teaching of single predestination and resistible grace is simply false.

[@jeffryan5302]

Therefore Lutherans in name only can loose their view of salvation unto eternal damnation…😱 The reformed view of soteriology: John 6:37-40 (ESV) [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Romans 8:1 (ESV) [1] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:29-30 (ESV) [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[@RealityConcurrence]

Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it pretty clear that we can lose our salvation unto damnation. “For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.” Shared in the Holy Spirit is used here, so they one hundred percent were Christians, saved, and then chose to blaspheme and die away. I’m curious how you would interpret that when Paul clearly shows that our salvation can be forfeited if we choose to reject the free gifts of the Spirit that we once shared in Christ, and therefore fall away?

[@Dsingis]

Do you agree with this: "The Holy Spirit is a seal; a guarantee of salvation." ? Ephesians 1:13 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit I assume you're going to say yes. So everyone who has the Holy Spirit is a believer, is saved, right? Then how can you claim that one can't fall away from the faith, when the Bible clearly says, that peoeple who have the Holy Spirit can fall away? Hebrew 6:4-6 -4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, -5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, -6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. So people who have the Holy Spirit are saved. And people who have the Holy Spirit can fall away. The calvinistic excuse of "they were never true believers" doesn't work here. They have the Holy Spirit. The verses you quoted, the first one "I will never cast out" yes, true. God does not cast us out. But we can decide to move away, to abandon grace; "resist it" so to say. The second verse you quoted: Yes, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But we can move away from Christ if we want to; "resist him" so to say. The third verse you quoted: Yes, god predestines people to be saved. Lutherans affirm that. We have a monergistic view of salvation, just like Calvin. But a synergistic view of damnation. He calls us, and if we believe it's all his grace, but if we resist or abandon it, then it is our own fault. And at the end here, for anyone who reads this and worries: don't worry please. The sin against the Holy Spirit is not something you do accidentally. You consciously reject the truth after having been enlightened to it (have the Holy Spirit) and become an enemy of god again. You wouldn't worry about this if you had, quite the opposite, you would find absolute dlight in blaspheming god and the gospel, if you did. As long as you hold dear to god, nothing can remove you from his hand. So hold dear, don't be tempted into apostasy.

[@edrash1]

@@RealityConcurrenceno it doesn’t keep reading the passage

[@williampeters9838]

@@edrash1I’m not being snarky when I say this but please explain what you think “shared in the Holy Spirit” means if it doesn’t mean that they fell away.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

​@@RealityConcurrenceYou're obviously not aware that Luther rejected that people can fall away with no possibility of them being reinstated in the faith. If it was actually true that it's impossible for people to be restored to repentance after they’ve fallen away it would mean for instance that David after he fell into adultery and murder couldn't have repented and been restored, yet we know from Scripture that he did repent and was restored 2 Samuel 12:13 ESV - David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. In Luther's translation of the Bible he put Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation into an appendix because he held that they contain false teaching or things that aren't in harmony with the rest of Scripture. I agree with Luther’s appraisal of these books.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

We must on some level admit that Luther and Calvin were doing little more than political soapboxing with their predestination doctrines, building mighty fortresses of division. It seems patently obvious that St Ignatius Loyola had a more practical and unifying view on the matter (from his "Thinking with the Church"): "14. It must also be borne in mind, that although it be most true, that no one is saved but he that is predestinated, yet we must speak with circumspection concerning this matter, lest perchance, stressing too much the grace or predestination of God, we should seem to wish to shut out the force of free will and the merits of good works; or on the other hand, attributing to these latter more than belongs to them, we derogate meanwhile from the power of grace. 15 For the like reason we should not speak on the subject of predestination frequently; if by chance we do so speak, we ought so to temper what we say as to give the people who hear no occasion of erring and saying, ‘If my salvation or damnation is already decreed, my good or evil actions are predetermined’; whence many are wont to neglect good works, and the means of salvation"

[@Edward-ng8oo]

Loyola was an enemy of Biblical Christianity who rejected justification through faith alone, and his belief that free will is compatible with predestination is wrong. Luther was right to maintain that people are saved and damned only according to God's will and that we can't determine our own destinies. We don't have free will, and to teach it means people wrongly think they can help to bring about their own salvation by their own actions, when in reality the only way to be saved is for people to come to the realisation that salvation is completely beyond them and in the hands of God alone. Only by despairing of themselves do the elect come to faith. The Holy Spirit then irresistibly regenerates them without their cooperation and creates faith in them, and this faith justifies them without works. Salvation is therefore entirely the work of God without any contribution from man. The good works that Christians do are simply the result of being in a saved state, they don't contribute to their salvation. Loyola's advice that predestination shouldn't be overemphasised in case people neglect good works is wrong. Those who are members of the elect will do good works automatically because the Holy Spirit leads them to do them, and the fact that they know that salvation is due to God's predestination only, and not in any way because of their good works, doesn't hinder them in doing them. Loyola's advice only makes sense in the context of false believers who reject justification through faith alone and who need to be prompted to do good works because by doing them it supposedly helps them to be saved. The truth is that Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism are basically two rival religions which use the same terminology but are completely opposed.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

@@Edward-ng8oo very true, but I would say that if Biblical Christianity eliminates man's agency in union with God, then it's more of a "doctrinal system" than a "religion", as such

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@WayneDrake-uk1gg It's not just a doctrinal system but it's also a religion, the only true religion in fact where one is brought into fellowship with God by God Himself who reconciles us to Himself through Christ. What led me out of Catholicism was realising the truth of justification through faith alone, and also realising that the Papacy is the Antichrist. I saw that the popes along with the bishops and priests were really teaching a false religion, one in which the Virgin Mary featured prominently, who they had built up into a goddess figure reigning alongside Christ, and far more approachable than Christ. After I left Catholicism, I began to see that these apparitions of "Mary" which have happened all over the world are really caused by evil spirits with the aim of leading people into idolatry, and that many Catholics have been deceived by them and visit Lourdes and other shrines to pray to Mary for healing and other favours. So yes the true Christian religion isn't to be confused with the counterfeit religion promoted by the popes. However that's not to say that all Catholics inwardly follow the false religion of the popes. There’s no doubt true Christians found within the Catholic church who don't realise what is actually going on. In the simplicity of their hearts they follow Christ and don't get swept away with the idolatry. The Holy Spirit keeps them in the one true faith.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@WayneDrake-uk1gg I just want to comment on my previous reply (about Loyola) by saying that Scripture does of course urge the doing of good works but the difference with the Catholic system is that they don't play a role in how one is saved. Works aren't meritorious as in Catholicism where a person's own righteous actions are the means by which he is saved. In Paul's teaching a person is saved by grace alone through faith alone in order to do good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). The good works are the result of having been saved through faith and aren't involved in how one is saved as it's Christ’s righteousness which is credited to a person through faith which is the righteousness which saves a person and not his own righteousness through the doing of works. The good works which Christians do, which are done because God enables them to do them aren't pure but are contaminated with sin, so they can't aid them to be justified and saved. Although of course it's also true that if good works aren't done then a person won't be saved, but only because this shows that faith is non-existent as true faith always produces good works. Luther was declared a heretic by the pope for teaching the above, and when I learnt about the Reformation and Luther's role in it I realised that Luther was right and Catholicism was wrong. It was God who convinced me of this I’m sure. If God wills to convert a person to Christ and lead him on the true way then it's not possible to resist as His grace is irresistible. The reason why there are so many millions of Catholics who are deceived by the popes is because they haven't been elected by God to be saved. Many are fanatical supporters of Catholicism others are just cultural Catholics but either way they don't know the truth and won’t be saved.

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

@@Edward-ng8oo what would be an example of a Catholic with saving faith vs one without?

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

I was going to say that irresistible grace only applies to calvinism... it doesnt make sense outside that tradition

[@Edward-ng8oo]

If one agrees with the teaching of Scripture that everyone is born with original sin and as a result is hostile to God and resistant to believing in Christ (i.e. the doctrine of total depravity as taught by Paul in Ephesians 2), then it follows that in order to be converted to Christ one needs to be irresistibly regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This is what Luther teaches in The Bondage of the Will. It's only through being misled by the Formula of Concord that those who claim to be Lutherans have rejected this Scriptural doctrine of irresistible grace. John 6 teaches that all those drawn by the Father to Christ believe in Christ and will be saved, and those not drawn by the Father don't believe in Christ and therefore will be damned. Predestination to heaven and hell is the teaching of Scripture (e.g. Romans 9), and Luther strongly defended the truth of double predestination and irresistible grace in his reply to Erasmus. Irresistible grace is a Biblical doctrine and it logically follows from the fact that everyone is totally depraved through original sin - which confessional Lutherans claim to believe in. If conversion wasn't irresistible but instead was resistible, then no one would be saved as everyone would resist seeing as by nature they're resistant to believing in Christ. Martin Chemnitz in the FC taught unscriptural doctrine when he formulated his theology of universal resistible grace and single predestination. Although it's true that Christ atoned for everyone’s sins and desires everyone’s salvation this is only applicable to God's revealed will as according to His hidden will He has willed and predestined everything that happens which includes that everyone is predestined to be either saved or damned. Those who are predestined to be saved are irresistibly regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and those who are predestined to be damned are left in their unbelief. The idea that the Holy Spirit is efficacious in the Word towards everyone is a man-made doctrine which isn't taught in Scripture.

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

@@Edward-ng8oo but whatever lutherans mean by IG, is not what Calvinists mean by it.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

@@HenryLeslieGraham I don't follow what you're saying. You need to explain what you mean. By the way, I'm a true Lutheran who agrees with Luther. Those who have been deceived by the 11th article in the Formula of Concord in reality aren't Lutherans but rather followers of Martin Chemnitz. The teaching in the FC on predestination is false and unscriptural.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@HenryLeslieGraham I somewhat agree. Mostly, I was a bit unclear about how Cooper was using the term "grace". In the Canons of Dort, the "grace" that is called irresistible is specifically regeneration. As such, I was thinking of the Canon of Orange from 529 AD and it's repeated assistance that everything about salvation, including our desire for God, our faith, any good works involved, our own free will choice, etc, all follow from an act of grace and regeneration in the person before any of those things can be made manifest in man. So I think a Calvinist could affirm every canon in Orange, but the way Cooper approached this topic, it seemed like he might take issue with canon 6 (and/or 5) given how he seems to say we can resist this grace God is doing in us and fall away, and so there is some burden on man to remove the resistance barrier himself rather than seeing even that removal as being done by God. But I also suspect that he was just using "grace" in a very different way that possibly overcomplicates the issue.

[@guyparker1749]

How gracious. ? Somewhat or not ,as very little.Not to respite as is to given. ?

[@jamiejame911]

In effect... irresistible grace.

[@Dsingis]

1:57 I wonder what makes you think that "resistable grace" is in effect "irresistable grace"? Lutherans very much think that a true believer can fall away and thus resist the grace.

[@electric336]

Bro, watch the video again.

[@edrash1]

@@Dsingiswhat’s the difference between one accepting and one rejecting?

[@Edward-ng8oo]

The important thing to understand about what confessional Lutherans believe about predestination and grace is that what they believe doesn't make logical sense. They follow the teaching contained in the Formula of Concord written after Luther's death and which contradicts Luther's teaching in The Bondage of the Will. Luther held (rightly) that the Scriptures teach irresistible grace and double predestination, but those who came after Luther rejected that God has predestined anyone to be damned and insisted that grace is universal and resistible. However they also believe (rightly) that everyone is depraved through original sin and is naturally resistant to believing in Christ, so it follows that if grace is resistible then no one can actually be converted to faith in Christ, as everyone will resist believing in Christ. Confessional Lutherans admit that they can't explain how anyone is saved. They just have this belief that somehow in some mysterious way that defies logical analysis that God can convert the elect and predestine them to be saved. It's absurd and delusional but Martin Chemnitz managed to convince a large number of people who were superficially identified as Lutherans that what he was teaching is true, when logically it's nonsense. The masterstroke that Chemnitz managed to pull off though was to convince his followers that truth doesn't need to be logical. Once people have been convinced that theology doesn't need to make logical sense then they'll believe whatever they're told to believe. The truth is that confessional Lutherans aren't actually Lutherans. A Lutheran by any normal definition is someone who agrees with Luther, but they don't agree with Luther, they agree with Chemnitz who contradicted Luther's teaching in The Bondage of the Will. So they're not genuine Lutherans.

[@alexanderh2345]

My main issue with Protestants and Catholics is that Jesus himself is superfluous to you. Not once in this nearly 4 minute clip on grace did you mention the name Jesus. How different from Paul when he writes on the grace of God! He is purposeful in naming Christ Jesus, because Christ is the work of grace. Ephesians 2, Romans 5, and Titus 3 for reference.

[@gideonopyotuadebo2304]

There are Bibles (books) but there is only one book of the law one book of the covenant one book of Yehovah one book of the law, the prophets and writings of God Yehovah of the testimony of Yehovah the true God which Yehovah gave by his spirit through his prophets for his holy anointed (mashiach, christ ) Any Christianity or gospel that is antilaw and anticovenant is Rebellious, blasphemous and contrary to the law of God Yehovah Rebellious, blasphemous and contrary to the covenant of God Yehovah Rebellious, blasphemous and contrary to the spirit of God Yehovah by which Yehovah gave the law Rebellious, blasphemous and contrary to the prophets of God Yehovah through who Yehovah gave the law Persecutory, blasphemous and contrary to the anointed (mashiach, christ) people of God Yehovah that are keeping the law and the covenant and ways of God Yehovah Rebellious, blasphemous and contrary to Yehovah the true God the Lawgiver and Covenantgiver Ungoly it is of serpent the tempter the inventor of the antilaw anticovenant gospel that made Adam to sin.against God Yehovah his father and God by not keeping the law and the covenant of the most high Lord God Husband King Lawgiver Covenantgiver Judge Creator Begetter Father Saviour Yehovah the true God Genesis 1:26-27 ASV And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [27] And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 2:7,15-17 ASV And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [15] And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. [16] And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 3:1-6 ASV Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: [3] but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. Hosea 6:7 ASV But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me. Isaiah 43:27 ASV Thy first father sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. Malachi 2:8 ASV But ye are turned aside out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble in the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith Jehovah of hosts. Deuteronomy 29:9,29 ASV Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. [29] The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 30:11-14 ASV For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. [12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? [13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? [14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deuteronomy 6:4,18,25 ASV Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: [18] And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of Jehovah; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, [25] And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment before Jehovah our God, as he hath commanded us. Deuteronomy 4:2 ASV Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32 ASV What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Deuteronomy 5:32 ASV Ye shall observe to do therefore as Jehovah your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. Deuteronomy 13:4 ASV Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Malachi 3:6 ASV For I, Jehovah, change not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

[@jeffryan5302]

Ditto ! Pray for those Lutherans that will be saved Biblically and soteriological…

[@TheOtherCaleb]

Huh?