The Main Conflicts of Modern Game Design | Ludonarrative Dissonance, Interactivity and Jonathan Blow

[@olinolmstead4490]

The quality and effort you are putting into these videos is very high. Every designer should watch this. Keep it up

[@VidhathShetty]

Best video on game design ive seen so far.

[@gabe2o2]

Just want to say I really enjoy the content here. I feel like not many go into the importance of story and narrative in games, so I really appreciate all the analysis and thought. Thank you thank you

[@basedsuntzu1163]

You deserve way more attention. Great job, keep it up!

[@panjitha]

This is such a good video. We need you on this platform!

[@twilight_mourner1865]

Oh My Gahd This is the most interesting vid on videogame storytelling! I'll be sure to keep this in mind as a story writer

[@texmurph]

Great content! Please keeping making videos. The amount of up to date info condensed into 30 minutes here is pretty impressive compared to most videos I see, but I would agree that giving more pauses in pacing/adding take aways would be helpful.

[@MechanicWolf85]

Modern games have been so dumb down with unskipable cutscenes, scripted events, force walking and dumb ai that every game I have played have borred me do to how little gameplay I do on them

[@hyperfixatedd]

Really interesting to watch this in 2024, where we are actually close to achieving the level of narrative-capable AI generation you mention in the video Things have changed a lot in 5 years Both the technology and the social response to it

[@lilian1812]

Man I love your videos they're soo inspiring

[@jeromeciarkowski1367]

Great video! Honestly, top notch content that forced me as a gamer/game designer/game developer to think about video games from a different perspective. I love when someone or something can force that upon me! However, I think this video and your other videos can be improved with a sort-of summary at the end. A summary that does just that--summarizes the main topics or themes discussed--perhaps with timestamps so your viewers will be able to return to a topic that's a bit hazy for them or simply just interesting to them. I noticed a bunch of other game design critique/analysis channels fall fault to the same hurdle. I honestly believe such is just better for the viewer's experience overall--but will also liven up your comment section. Since the viewer would be reminded of what interested them the most/least and be more likely to drop a comment. And then that comment with foster discussion in the community. And then that discussion will make the viewer tell their friend about it. Which will then bring in more viewers. So I guess if you want more ad revenue you should add a summary to your videos. ;-)

[@thegameoveranalyser4835]

Thanks for the kind words and the feedback Jerome! Going back to watch the video I think you are absolutely right, my essays seem to be far too dense for people to properly retain information, I just haven't gotten feedback on the issue. A summary or recap sounds like a great idea, I l'll look into how I can do that in the future. Thanks!

[@jeromeciarkowski1367]

@@thegameoveranalyser4835 Yay! Thanks for listening and being open to constructive criticism.

[@MrGoodbye23]

@@jeromeciarkowski1367 You provided it in a way that was easier to receive. so good job! thats important too

[@ma_bueno]

I honestly don't see how far or close we are of achieving these things. Videogames are not well seen around the world because of the bad reputation of some games and publishers, we are maybe now on a era of transition, were the world starts to aknowledge the existence and importance of the medium, which is happening trough the lootboxes controversy and games being shipped and very poor state. I would say it will take some time for us to get out of a bubble that we ourselves created. And I am saying that being a lover of games like Devil My Cry, Doom, Pac-Man, which ain mostly of the fun of the mechanics. If we seek our teeth into then, which The G.O (game overanalyser) already did, we will find somethings really especial. I hope those days come soon. Keep Playing!

[@XBLArmory]

Obviously 29 minutes isn't enough time to have all of the detail and intricacy on this topic fully expounded upon but you've made a great window for people to peer into it and get some detail out of this topic. A few issues; Player agency exists outside the context of the game, meaning what does the player want? Not "what sort of choices does he make?" or "what can he do?", or "how might meaning be conveyed through various actions?", I mean does the player give a shit, does he want these things, does he want these details? does he want to sacrifice these elements of existing games to have a more "meaningful" experience or does he reject the developers notion of meaning and merely want the Game and a thread of rational world building to connect his actions within the game? The answer to me is that genre and audience are being forgotten and that the roots of video games aren't solely in literature but in physical games played with dice and cards and figurines with often abstract rules for the purpose of making the game fun and fair. As a aautionary tale I would call "negative progress" (sometimes new things are bad no matter how many people will permit them) we have the progression of Documentaries as an art on means of conveying knowledge, experience, truth etc. The earliest documentaries were for either scientific purposes to be shown to academics/students or for the purpose of educating the public, documentaries became a style that propaganda might imitate, not entirely false pretense but conclusions included in such a piece and the idea to rhetorically manipulate the public, this still exists in a more stylized form often to compete for attention or manipulate the audience but generally the facts are not false, the inaccuracies in the presentation aren't so glaring and neither is the lack of key information to the uninitiated, the goal being social, political or cultural manipulation, and often things are just poorly researched as a matter of budgeting too much money for CGI and not enough for consultation with experts. but birthed from this we see mockumentaries which are a valid form of documentary stylized fiction, even elements of the documentary presentation and style are used for rhetorical purposes in all genres and forms of video entertainment, but an invalid cousin of he mocumentary is something which presents itself as a true doccumentary to disarm the viewer and then blatantly lies to them for the purpose of entertainment and this line is being crossed more and more; Mermaids: The Body Found and its sequel Mermaids: The New Evidence are great examples of this in explicit terms but if this sort of negative progress were the least subtle we would have other cases in which it's far more subtle like, Mars, 10,000 BC, Vikings, Rome, fiction pieces claiming to be true to science, archaeology, paleontology or whatever other discipline when in reality they were fiction written for entertainment that got some revisions made to their script by a few pop scientistsl science sort of gets lost in translation to narrative and in the same way game-play can be lost to narrative, lore can be lost to narrative, a players personal conception of the story isn't the only thing which can be lost to narrative but it in the present environment it is the least jarring thing to lose to the narative in most experiences. If you look at darksouls you play the story, you can better understand your actions by reading lore and observing the world but if you just came for the gameplay that's fine too, cinematics and music are used for gravity and tone, Exposition is sparse and wholly unnecessary to the "learn by doing" process the game has laid out, Gameplay was the priority because that is the critical and unique element of the medium, your first 20 minutes in a souls games is laying the tone and getting your sea legs (souls legs). Compare this to a franchise like Halo where in the bungie games you get a tone cinematic, you get your short introduction to mechanics, objectives and the gameplay loop and you are playing, it's all play, the story is there in the world in understanding the meaning of the words characters are using if you care to pay attention, but the understanding could easily be reduced to the visceral experience of killing aliens in cool ways with novel tools and experiences along the way; deeper story, lore and character development are in the books and eventually came terminals to expound on lore in game as well as other mediums, compare this to the 343 games which moved from alien shooter and space opera to shooting gallery and soap opera, these changes were intentional and perpetrated on a fanbase who never really wanted them in the pursuit of all the things you mention in the video, these heady concepts in application can be great if they are used in experiences and contexts crafted for them but when they subsume the core of what made a game, outdated or not, it can ruin the experience. My point here is that all sorts of narratives, games and experiences must be retained and that the over analysis of all of this theory and conjecture can just get in the way of a good game and that in all of these talks from all of these devs and intellectuals the word "need" gets thrown around far too often and that these "needs" based on some arbitrary sense of progress are often at the expense of other qualities which should be more heavily considered like, "fun", "compelling gameplay", "novelty" and that a human touch is needed in this element of the art of game design because reductionist thinking will always fail to wholly describe them and unify them.

[@brunosorgus8031]

I think you make some good points. I see games as having the unique ability to convey meaning and information functionally. I think transmitting understanding and or influencing thinking by means of interactivity with mechanics and systems has magnificent, mostly untapped potential. Extremely complex ideas can be transmitted when they are embedded in (or embodied by) an interactive wholistic structure that can be explored and discovered according to the tendencies and disposition of the explorer. With the advent of computers the potential of the medium is expanding by many orders of magnitude, but I agree with your point that games are not new, and their essential functional nature, manifest even in the earliest games, is the key to understanding the core of their potential going forward.

[@mattmorehouse9685]

Why would challenge be inherently against the story of video games? Don't most stories involve some form of challenge in them, some problem that needs to be solved or succumbed to? Wouldn't this work in a video game as a story of overcoming the challenges arrayed against the player and so advancing the story? I don't see what the big deal is with challenge being against story, since, isn't the soul of drama, conflict, which comes from challenge?

[@bpansky]

not enough exploration of the possibility for games to really fully get rid of scripted stories. feels to me like an entire art medium being ignored. and one that i crave above all others.

[@thetruewisegamer]

If I may be so bold as to say that " there will always be a dissonance whether we like it or not". no matter how we try it not particular easy to really blur the line between player and character. I feel that pretending that there isn't a minor barrier to between them is not understanding mediums in of themselves.it like a book yea it not you and the only control you have is whether to move forward or backwards in the story or like in movies and in games that no different. a good example of this barrier is the scene where have to kill the boss we can progress the story until it is done even when we don't want to. or luke doing nothing in ep8 there is a disconnect from characters no matter the medium. yes i understand the medium whole idea is interactivity but to pretend that other mediums exist and using elements from them is somehow bad is really not moving the medium forward just leaving it the same place it always was.

[@splinterborn]

great quality video btw, just wanted to know what the song is at 8:52, i recognize it but cant put my finger on it. ah, its Heal from the Ico OST. Beautiful song. Music is so powerful and can help enforce a feeling or specific mood in a game and i think people dont talk about soundtrack and sound design in video games as much as they should.

[@bpansky]

@13:15 conflict and progression yt says @21:21 is conflict 3, ,interactivity VS pre-baked delivery

[@civilwarfare101]

I've just come to expect ludonarrative dissonance now. I mostly play shooters and they tell mostly terrible stories but they provide a really fun gameplay stimulus. There are interesting ways to tell stories in games but it's always at a cost between gameplay or story.

[@ManMan-bj8it]

Amazing video but at 6:48 does anybody know what that game is? He said it’s name was “eco” but I can’t find that anywhere online. It looks fantastic.

[@ucnguyen6375]

It is Ico

[@sebastiansolidwork8804]

How about Ludonarrative Synthesis ? www.gamasutra.com/blogs/FabianFischer/20171213/311360/Solve_et_coagula_Ludonarrative_Synthesis.php Interactive media in it's core consists of two parts: - abstract rules/mechanics for learning and challenge - audiovisuelle effects for feelings Accordingly to the theory, I assisted, per product one should lead the other should support. Most actual games do not apply to this pattern so they are struggling with dissonances. WhatRemainsOfEdithFinch is an example for an *interactivitly* told story. Mostly multiplayer games/modes are examples for mechanical challenges and having no conflicting story.

[@jomohogames]

I think Hotline Miami is another example of doing this right.

[@hihu8741]

Hey @The Game Overanalyser - you should check out 'The Most Abused Term in Videogame Criticism ' by SolePorpoise on YT. He talks about ludonarrative dissonance and how its incorrectly used. Unfortunately the example of Nathan Drake in Uncharted is not Ludonarrative Dissonance. Its one of my favourite videos on the subject. Please check it out :) I love your videos btw, but yeah, wanted to point that out.

[@JunkyardHounds]

Actually it is.

[@hihu8741]

@@JunkyardHounds did you watch the video I recommended?

[@JunkyardHounds]

@@hihu8741 Yes i did. My point still stands as the video is idiotic and makes no sense. One of the points made against the Uncharted example is that the game is a shallow action game and therefore not ludonarratively dissonant. That's stupid, since the dissonance refers to the character itself. But if you want an excuse to continue on playing shallow games, go ahead. Enjoy Uncharted.

[@hihu8741]

@@JunkyardHounds hahah what. Its not saying its shallow, its just not using Clint Hockings original description of ludonarrative dissonance properly, thats all. Uncharted games are fantastic. Hocking made the term up, people use it wrong, the example of uncharted is wrong. That's all hahah

[@JunkyardHounds]

@@hihu8741 No, you're wrong and clearly have not paid attention to the video. And Uncharted games are crap. Crap repetitive gameplay with generic 3 act structure with shallow Hollywood writting. But to each his own, enjoy eating shit.

[@____uncompetative]

Blow got nothing from his education. The whole point of writing a book report is to prove you read the assigned book.

[@borb5353]

"requiring AI close to the singularity horizon ?" oh boy this sure didnt age well

[@444-w8k]

"synchronized gyrations"

[@ryszakowy]

let me tell you -taking control away from the player -making cutscenes out of things that should be gameplay -making gameplay out of things that should be cutscenes -cutscene character not matching gameplay character -things happenning just because -main antagonist not really having a plan -WOKE all those things kill the game instantly and jonathatn blow was correct but WRONG in one thing - player character does NOT have to match my views and beliefs that's what started this shit, self insterts that ruin gaming ask yourself why would you be playing shooters if you are a pacifist

[@RUDY-COLEMAN]

modern warfare 2 never instructs you to kill civilians

[@АртёмТор-к2ю]

Americans don't need instructions to kill civilians

[@prashantshukla6814]

your content is good but you use same clips and that confuses me with other things you have said on same clips

[@danielvutran]

God play is also dependent on 'people' - Beethoven is 1,000x better than almost all artists today, doesn't mean PEOPLE would appreciate to ⛅

[@sdrawkcab_emanresu]

I love Beethoven, but he isn't. Just because something is old music, doesn't mean it is better. Vsauce made a section of his juvenoia video about this. I highly suggest you to check it out