Jonathan Blow: Conflicts in Game Design 2008 talk

2008 MIGS talk abou the inherent conflicts in story-centric game designs.
@1:00:22 elaboration on issues in Half-life 2
@25:00 continue after elaboration

[@bzsgzs]

I have the power to hear into the future.

[@Myst165]

So, the future is here. Did we achieve what Jonathan talked about? Making games that are important, profound and meaningful? Hmm, I don't think so.

[@marceeeeeeel1030]

@@Myst165 minecraft

[@amber_toiletbowlfingers]

@@Myst165 undertale

[@putinstea]

@@amber_toiletbowlfingers is barely even a game

[@amber_toiletbowlfingers]

@@putinstea OH SHIII---

[@lemesky]

Thank you so much for all of Blows lectures! And the the video you made is just perfect and makes it easy to listen and pay attention. Im dying to play his new game "the witness"!

[@SuperMistland]

I'm a big fan of Jonathan Blow, I think he has extremely interesting ideas regarding the relationship between challenge, story, meaning and mechanics. I think people like him are incredibly important to add diversity to the medium and to challenge it. I do have to take issue with his point on Half Life 2. I think he unfairly reduces the game to a series of arena fights, something like Killzone 2. I think Half Life 2 is definitely more than that, but I do see his point.

[@kecksohn]

Your comment is 9 years old but I still wanna add to this since I recently replayed it. The opening of Half Life 2 is amazing, I don't think I've ever played a more immersive version of a fucked up police state. But as soon as you get a gun and start killing one cop after another for seemingly no consequences (sure there are some story consequences but lets be real, if this weren't a video game you'd be dead in 2 minutes tops) all that meaning kinda gets thrown out the window and replaced by a first person shooter. HL2 still has amazing levels after that (the endless arena-style firefights blow was talking about not being one of them) but I do think the story they wanted to tell or oppressive world they wanted to show doesn't fit at all a typical First Person Shooter like even Half Life 1

[@MissVelvetElle]

Thank you, Jonathan Blow! I am learning so much from you in a really stimulating way! And thank you rubbermuck for uploading!

[@Mulltime]

the space in the voice so to speak... the tail of the sound... bit like a big bathroom sound or something definitely gives you a sense of space....

[@BeBoBli]

I can enjoy Metal Gear for both the game design and story... It's a satisfying variety of the two.

[@Instig8iveJournalism]

@Instig8iveJournalism and the musical pieces, too, are placed 'in' the environment or as part of the events occurring, in one of the most sophisticated and well thought-out dynamic soundtracks I've seen so far.

[@slouch186]

wow, johnathan really gets it right in this video.

[@sinclairreid979]

interesting stuff. simplicity sometimes being the best idea- nice

[@Instig8iveJournalism]

The very thing he describes about HL2 seemed to be thematic in ValvE's game design: you'd shoot your way through a room, and then for a "reward" you would hear characters talk. Another "reward" might be to play cool music for certain fights (this is explicitly stated in one of the ValvE developer commentaries). Interestingly, Portal 2 dissolves both of those things. There are large portions of the game during which the character dialogue is intrinsically interwoven as part of the gameplay, and

[@gd7681]

... and?

[@geriburrito]

Dude it’s been 11 years, you can’t keep leaving us hanging like that.

[@hackerdackers8832]

@@geriburrito it was actually an ironic statement about us now expecting him to finish his sentence as a reward 😳

[@Uncompetative]

Stories have themes. Themes can be expressed in many different ways. Simulations can be used to bring characters to life. The psychology of the player's alter ego can be analysed and used as a moral template to nudge them into situations of responsibility where their avatar is committed to a particular course (they make a friend, or fall in love and then that NPC is kidnapped, or betrays them leading them to a set of just-in-time created predictable finite choices). Kudos rewards consistency.

[@YenzQu]

A very interesting talk. I think, most developers don't even see that there is a problem. They not only do try to figure out how to attune gameplay and story, but instead they don't even see or care it if both run into each other like two colliding steam engines. For instance most MMORPGs have this epic storylines where everyone is the chosen one.

[@powerpill]

i actually i think that since you hear the echo before the voice, that this echo is actually jon's voice coming from his own mouth, and the loud voice is coming from the speakers with a little lag as it comes through the microphone, because the person who taped this lecture was relatively close to jon while he was talking and they heard both "voices". so, basically, there is no error nor way to fix this audio.

[@AdobadoFantastico]

There is no reverb, but you can hear him speak before the mic outputs his voice. So it sounds like he quietly says things just before he says them normally, due to the small latency.

[@CorpseTongji]

ok but for example : consider silent hill 2 without any of the cgs or dialogue it would be an incredibly moody experience that wouldnt have a 'story' so to speak , but i think would still be able to convey the messages of the game thru gameplay and aesthetics alone

[@WalkOnNick]

I didn't feel that way about Alyx, her story bits are a reward in and of itself I was looking forward to them I did not feel like they impeded my progress.

[@rubbermuck]

@DarkAntiU94 thank you for watching

[@LilDP]

Look, I love games that come in all shapes and sizes. I love HL2 and they way it presented its story as I love braid. They were both unique. It's like listening to a story-telling competition. Some people like to give the hard facts. This happened, this happened, this happened. Some people like a little comedy. Some people like to have a profound theme. All ways can be great. But when you add a formula to telling a story, storytelling ceases to become art. It becomes a science.

[@distantj]

Oh my god, Mulholland Drive up there with Michelangelo, Jonathan Blow just got EVEN COOLER

[@rubbermuck]

@lemesky which video that i made?

[@Suspense1376]

if you listen closely you will notice that its not just some random group of people speaking at the same time as he is. Its actually him speaking either a little ahead or slighly behind in the monologue.

[@nicholasharris2108]

Conventionally, Art influences the underlying Theme of a Work (Poem, Opera, Novel, Film, etc.) usually in a linear Narrative form (this definition excludes Improvisational Theatre, Experimental Cinema, Gallery Installations, Abstract Expressionist Painting, etc.) and good Art ensures that all its components cohere (i.e. no misleading, or dissonant, redundant ingredients). Non-linearity is only in conflict with pre-scripted Narrative and experiential agency (the Sandbox), not Theme.

[@rubbermuck]

@lemesky oh, in that sense, yes, I did. thanks.

[@AsbjornOlling]

46:24 This statement seems ready to be revisited in 2023...

[@LeEnnyFace]

his statement still stands and 15 years is not exactly 'any time soon'

[@hackerdackers8832]

he also mentions that to him something created by a human with meaning is more valuable than something manufactured by AI. not trying to comment on the value of AI art myself, just wanted to mention that there’s other problems involved than whether its possible for AI drama managers to exist.

[@AsbjornOlling]

​@@LeEnnyFace I agree. 15 year is indeed a long time.. same order of magnitude as the "50 years" that Blow refers to. I don't think that his statements are ill-informed or unreasonable; I just think that new facts have come to light since then. Blow says: "A drama manager ... requires human-level AI. You have to solve the hard AI problem" It has become clear that this is false. I don't think that anyone has solved "the hard AI problem" in 2023. But writing drama (below human-expert-quality) is actually one of the things that language models are good at. I don't think that transformer models have solved "the hard AI problem", but I do think that they're capable of writing drama. I just think that new facts have come to light since then.

[@NerdrageOfficial]

I believe that one of the core objects that a game has to have in order to influence people on a emotional level is to connect with them and their past experiences.

[@MidnightSt]

that's a... very not untrue, but also very useless declaration

[@Balloonbot]

Like the echo after every sentence.

[@AvaAvaneDawn]

So... in the end, is Blow proposing that in the design of a game, there is room for a space (not literal) which the interactor can occupy with critical distance, as opposed to the space one occupies in the game as a whole where it would be harder to see what meanings within the system create the system at large?

[@MegaZeroBlues]

I would answer that (based on jon's talks, and speaking on my own interpretation of them) That it would depend on how it is presented. It also depends on "fun." He used Counter Strike as an example. If you look up other words for fun, like "joyful" it wouldn't really fit in a seriously competitive game like CS, even though players will use it. It's a catchall word. So if the game is "fun" but still respectful to your intelligence, no it's not a problem.

[@Spiderboydk]

The Vanishing of Ethan Carter is a great example on how story and gameplay complement each other and merge into an incredible meaningful game.

[@Youtube_Globetrotter]

Claus Jensby Madsen It also have wonderful music that fits the story and the drama very well.

[@3333218]

Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Darwin, Einstein, Jonathan Blow. ;D

[@MuradBeybalaev]

It sounded like there was a prompter in there. Not the teleprompter, but an actual human.

[@DrunkenGlums]

I'm really interested to see what he would think about games like Thomas was Alone and Flow and Journey...

[@ScottSheppardTheWombat]

Harry Jones he helped program flow, FYI.

[@DrunkenGlums]

do you know that they are currently making a film of SotC?

[@henryaudubon]

Interestingly, it isn't even an echo. The faint talking is actually AHEAD of the main audio.

[@nicholasharris2108]

The theme can be periodically reasserted by the game's drama director, subtly contriving some resonant patterns to be encountered along the predicted player's future path. How can this possibly work in an Open World? Simple. The awareness of kudos gently forces the player to commit to a succession of interdependent missions which act to funnel them inexorably towards a pattern that the drama director has manipulated into being by tweaking the plans of the AI. Much of this happens "off stage"

[@assiost]

Just like Braid - World 5.

[@SnowboardIVLife]

reverb meaning the echo i imagine

[@rubbermuck]

what do you mean, reverb?

[@Uncompetative]

Story should be subordinate to Play, but all too often it is the other way around. Narratives are written and voice actors recorded to speak in-game dialogue which cannot help but limit player freedom of choice. An acceptable solution is two-fold: 1. Forget about a predetermined narrative path and get the simulation to convey an underlying theme, periodically funneling the player into dramatic "traps". 2. Make players take on a role and reward them for "staying in character" without zaniness.

[@nicholasharris2108]

The FBI, Internal Affairs, Police and Mayor's Office would also act as self-directed gangs with increasing levels of corruption carefully hidden from public view. They would also seek arrests and interrogation more often than the criminal gangs as well as avoid harm to bystanders. Let these AI driven NPCs procedurally-generate a choice of missions for their alter ego to role-play, let them pick a faction and gain the trust of that organisation in order to unlock more challenge and variety.

[@MetroAndroid]

My religious views are actually shaped because of games and anime I've watched. I've learned so much from video games.

[@eugkra33]

wow its like I am able to tell what he is about to say... It's not reverb it's preverb!

[@wessmall7957]

Jonathan Blow's Half Life 2 rant at the end was the perfect ending. He's 100% correct.

[@wikiemol2]

I believe that game design IS a story telling medium, however I think it allows us to tell simpler and more elegant stories than films could ever tell. For instance, the game Shadow of the Colossus by Team Ico told a very small story, however the game itself was very large. The story, in fact, was so small that if it were made into a film, the film would have sucked... a lot. There are other examples of this, like knytt, and even mario. The best games tell stories that are small in a big way.

[@MarkOates2]

Double rainbow!! what does it meeeeeaaan? D:

[@PauLtus_B]

I would like to hear him talk about "the Last of Us" and TellTale.

[@eudaemonical]

+PauLtus B They fit into the Faux Challenge category, most likely.

[@PauLtus_B]

TrashintheTrash I feel like with the Last of Us, it's unlocking parts of a movie by shooting at things. None of the emotion actually comes from the game. I do love TellTale. But it doesn't really present itself as a challenge anyway. But any kind of interaction is interaction with the story.

[@eudaemonical]

+PauLtus B Yeah, I was thinking more of TellTale with what I said. Didn't make that clear. Both their games and The Last of Us suffer from different kinds of problems that he pointed out. I was a fan of TellTale once too, but I just can't enjoy their games anymore. If you remove Walking Dead's story, it becomes the most pointless piece of interaction. The most meaningful thing you'll find is that if you make a choice out of two or three, there's a different outcome (if it even is different), which means very little on its own. If anything, it illustrates how limited these game are. We regard branching narratives as awesome in the gaming industry while disregarding the fact that every interaction in the game is a potential branch. Why is it even possible to fail in their games, if there's no consequence besides returning to the last checkpoint? Eventually you'll get through that zombie or whatever it is that's blocking your story. I'm not saying their stories are bad, just that the interactions are so shallow that they barely justify the game. And, as Blow pointed out, it's really hard to think of ways to improve the dynamics of a game that's so focused on its story without making it feel conflicted.

[@PauLtus_B]

TrashintheTrash I think despite the interactions technichally not mattering. I think the illusion (which it's actually getting less of) of choice works very wel for the immersion. And I don't feel it's conflicted at all. Since you make the character you control in a way. That's why I put it next to the last of us. Because that's straight forward a game, with a story. But I feel like the player can really feel conflicted with the actions of the character you control.

[@eudaemonical]

I see what you mean. The Last of Us definitely suffers from conflict, whereas TellTale games practically don't because of their very simple mechanics. But even though TellTale does a better job at "gamifying" the story, their games still feel shallow to me due to the meaningless mechanics (they're only there because of the story, otherwise these games would consist of point-and-click and QTE interactions, which are at least as meaningless) and I don't think there's a way to improve these without having them become more like The Last of Us. The way I see it, your character acting in a different way because you chose option A instead of B is not much different from having Mario jump as you press a button: it's just reaction and it doesn't mean anything on its own, even if there's a story around it.

[@sleepingeye]

i'm sorry i mean the audio, there seems to be a reverb/feedback on the microphone throughout the talk, it just hurts my ears unfortunately

[@Uncompetative]

I think Rockstar may well drop the pre-scripted story in future GTA titles. The cost of content creation will force them to adopt sophisticated procedural generation. Google: esri cityengine subversion city generator introversion youtube Similar tools can be used to dress pedestrians and furnish interiors. Recently, much was made of the screenshots of GTA V that showed some dirt bikes as in FUEL, Google: reset button the biggest game ever making of fuel edge magazine Play don't Show/Tell

[@SSJ5Cloufiroth]

Story and challenge get in each others' ways... ... THAT'S why Final Fantasy is so easy! I don't mean that sarcastically.

[@nicholasharris2108]

The solution can be summarised in Six words: Kudos rewards Procedurally-Generated Role-Play. Essentially, this is saying that Rockstar would be wise to throw out the script for the next GTA as it is in conflict with sandbox freedom and cultivate emergent gameplay instead. Organised crime would be simulated in the City via multiple AI gang leaders (Triads, Mafia, Yakusa, etc.) which would rely on less smart henchmen to gather imperfect, partial, intelligence on their rivals.

[@lemesky]

I thought you made this video?

[@LilDP]

Pssh, that is a question we are all asking ourselves. But at the same time, there's speculation that there won't be an episode 3. It could just be a 3rd game. Either way, he's taking too damn long.

[@Cosmorth]

So from this: Minecraft/DayZ/etc.

[@evertchin]

the very faint echo in the background...

[@sleepingeye]

Am i the only one who gets dizzy from this kind of reverb in the video?

[@Uncompetative]

I'm not saying that all developer should sack their scriptwriters. There will always be a place for story-driven, heavily art directed games. However, the economics of their AAA production will probably lead them to be digitally distributed at low cost episodically in an attempt to reuse assets and a perfectly servicable engine. It is not as if the next episode of a TV soap opera makes its audience wait for the creation of new camera technology, so why the wait for Half LIfe: Episode 3?

[@alasanof]

I think there's still a problem of dissonance of message in film, tv, etc. Like with blockbusters and stuff.

[@SheepFreak2]

thought-provoking stuff

[@sergrojGrayFace]

Gravitation and Marriage aren't good. A game that gets it right is Braid-inspired The Company of Myself. It's a great little game that leaves a feeling of a deep movie when you finish it.

[@sambocyn]

i think it's mostly an echo.

[@Joigem]

Am I the only one who heard a scary sound at 59:40

[@GustavoMsTrashCan]

Today's games needs more variety, and less gore.

[@siskavard]

You could if the player has less free will in the game.

[@Dack105]

Watching this in 2013... MInecraft and The Walking Dead. Minecraft has no story, TWD has very little dynamic meaning. Both are amazing and successful.

[@hackerdackers8832]

and in the talk he talks about half life 2 and bioshock, both amazing and successful games. that still suffer from the kind of dissonance he talked about

[@tonikovacic]

echo

[@nicholasharris2108]

Players need to be rewarded for staying in-character during their Role-Play and not mucking about in the sandbox ultimately undermining the authenticity of the drama. Consequently, Kudos points are witheld from players who do not focus on missions that they have accepted. Player death is no longer Game Over, for although there are no respawns, you get to continue being in the City as another procedurally-generated character - whose base stats are boosted by all the Kudos you recently accumulated

[@guycomments]

It's kinda hard to listen to.

[@ChuckOriley]

(sic) ploutonic ideal! what an ignoramus.

[@nicholasharris2108]

Wow. That was incredibly long-winded outline of the tension between Narratalogical and Ludological aspects of Videogames mixed with an ill informed criticism of Bioshock - in which Blow fails to mention that you get an upbeat ending to the game if you didn't harvest ADAM from the little sisters, but rescued them instead. Also, how hyper-kinetic does he expect the player to be to begrudge an "interlude" in the action as Alyx Vance slips in some immersion-enhancing exposition as a door is unlocked

[@LilDP]

Right and what I'm saying is your idea would make a great game if 1) it was practical to make such a game and 2) that was what gta4 was trying to be. It's not practical to make such a game as the processing power and space of the pcs on the market today would not be able to handle all the content. SOMETHING would suffer(See dwarf fortress. It has everything). Also, GTA is not a gang-life simulator. Simulators are a different breed of game. If this is what you want, you must wait or make it.

[@LilDP]

Yes but what if people WANT a story. It's not easy to create procedurally generated role-play. That's not what the game is about. GTA usually has a great story. If you want a game like that, go play mount and blade. OR you can play Saints Row (I think.) You're asking for a different game entirely and what you're asking is also beyond the scope of the current market. They would have to sacrifice processing power to implement this. You are asking for a different game. Not better. Different.

[@LilDP]

I just realized how disjointed my comment was. Oh well... Anyways this is pretty much my problem with jonathan blow. He digs on many great games to try and make a point that his game is superior. He finds all these "flaws" in other games that are not "flaws" but design choices. A game doesn't have to be profound or meaningful. In fact, attempting to be so is the definition of pretentious. I find some of the most profound ideas to be entirely unintentional. QUIT trying so hard.