The Mandaeans

Guest appearance by Dr. James F. McGrath in Dr. Deborah Saxon's class at Butler University about the Mandaeans, the last surviving Gnostic group to survive from ancient times to the present day, and their fascinating texts, beliefs, and practices as well as their current situation.

[@gongallah]

Hi James, I'm a child of the indescribable God... I was raised Christian (Baptist, 4 Square Gospel, Pentecostal) ..I have adulted as a gnostic (walking in both physical and spiritual worlds) as an interfaith minister, here in Australia. Skip over the 12 years of medical malpractice performed on me..I presented with back pain from birth deformities and was chemically lobotomised until August 2021, I'm literally 7 months old in being inside this body... it hurts .. AND the colours, sounds.. everything related to nerve connections is still very vivid.... Since August 2021 I have also been homeless... due to covid and my absolute refusal to stay where abuse is the norm and where my voice of gentle "no thanks" is unheard.... or I am asked for "more respect" or to be happy about the abuse that is dished out... yeah .. tough stuff with chronic pain as a 45 year old lady. Since August 2021 I have travelled far... on foot mostly, with what I am able to carry... my spine situation means I currently experience peripheral neuropathy in my arms n legs with migraines for fun if I am unable to lay horizontally to change the effect of gravity on my body, when needed... From Nanango, Queensland where I was beside myself, locked out of my body by Drs orders... to Liverpool in Western Sydney, New South Wales... (via the scenic route) as deemed safe by the government's homeless accommodation services... I am currently being a No sayer to abuse by landlord and real estate money grabbers, in shared accommodation NEXT DOOR to the very same Mandaean peeps (well the peeps are in the Mandaean grocery shop) I have been keen to meet since forever ago. I'm literally being dragged into living out an epic dream I had in my early 20s... It's just me n God here. No next of kin... I am exactly where God wants me... The synchronicities are everywhere... Each morning I enjoy a walk to watch the sun rise over Sydney, at the spot where the world's religions of Macquarie St with family businesses, where I have a room above the pub, meets the western Sydney Uni and the huge Westfield's mall and cinema complex face each other... My room has a window, that gives me light, bounced off the brick wall... and I hear every word from the staff room of the Mandaean shop next door. Long long story.. I'm Here. God (the indescribable one) has me by the scruff of the neck and sometimes I go to the roof of the mall to see if I can "quark out" (yes, quark out is the verb now) to see if I can fly yet. So excited to wake and say hallelujah at the pain every morning. I'm here learning more ways to love my neighbours... Thank you!!!

[@TheBorkka]

I've met like 5 mandeans at my work place in Sweden. They are nice people.

[@elanaiscool884]

I wish I was at Sweden because alot of my mandean family went to Sweden but am at AustraliaT_T

[@UnoriginalEpinom]

Wonderful to see Mandaean texts being translated to English. I find the gnostic religions fascinating. I often wonder about the potential connections between various gnostic and related groups including those usually considered as well as those that may have been influenced by them such as Druze, Manicheans, Cathars, and even Islam and Sikhism. I look forward to reading your translation and any future work you may generate.

[@DUCKIES980]

I’m proud to be a mandaen

[@Universalwisdomknowledge]

To know all, it is necessary to know very little; but to know that very little, one must first know pretty much.

[@bellabee5042]

Wow! Thank you 🙏🏼 I’m a Meandean young lady I am so intrigued by this! I’m on KZbin watching a professor teach me about my own religion! I’m at a age where I can now listen and understand facts about my culture & religion. Thanks again and I will be subscribed and hoping for some more amazing content. 👍🏼

[@yushamenthari]

لعد شبيج ما ادرسين عن دينج؟

[@mikeutube011]

Bella Bee can you explain to me the Mandaean “prophecy” of The Secret Adam please? i can not find anything about it anywhere...

[@MohdElfieNieshaemJuferi]

Hi I would like to know more about what you believe.

[@karlohabib9364]

Hey bella, I'm mandaean aswell and I'm thinking the same way as you. Greetings from Australia and happy eid.

[@obadiahrobinson]

www.amazon.com/dp/3110486512/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_hist_2

[@abdulahoop6643]

Im mandaean. Thank you

[@jessfitzgerald6320]

Post pandemic, I met a Manain today and was looking to learn more. Your lecture was illuminating, so thank you.😊

[@linseyspooner2382]

I AM ONE Thank you . Good JOB ELOAH BLESS YOU

[@who6184]

Baruk Haba Bashem YAHUWAH ELoah EL ELyon Tsevaoth of the Shamayim!!!!! Shalom Mishpacha.

[@linseyspooner2382]

Spirit of truth teach All things. Promised lam seed

[@virginiahansen320]

@James McGrath Thanks to your videos, I have definitively fallen down the Mandaean rabbit-hole and I have a question. So, in keeping with both gnostic and Jewish Hekhalot mysticism, a lot of these rituals seem to have to do with preparing the participant to ascend through heaven and into the divine presence. There continues to be some level of difficulty in ascertaining what the various "seals" are within gnosticism and Jewish mysticism before that. Given the descriptions of the rituals, they're obviously something that's held in the hand. I know most people think some sort of ritual stone, but I've also heard it argued that when someone is out of the body a stone isn't the kind of thing they can take with them. Basically, I want to know what, if anything, the Mandaean practice today can teach us about the seals? Are they magic objects, are they the kushta (I mean, that's held in the hand)? Are they simply symbolic of some higher reality that only the initiate is supposed to know?

[@virginiahansen320]

I mean, I'm also open to the idea that the seals might be different in different mystical systems. It might be different in different gnostic groups and different entirely in Jewish mysticism. But the curiosity is killing me!

[@ReligionProf]

That's an interesting question. Some suggest that rituals like baptism may be among the seals, which one can then carry with them, symbolically, when they ascend into the lightworld. Neither the texts nor the practices make this ambiguous, but there's at least room to treat things like water, bread, the sacred drink (in the Mandaean case from dates and water), myrtle, handshake, and banner as things each physical object of which points to some spiritual reality that equips the soul to ascend. There's undoubtedly more room for research as well as speculation, but it is unlikely that anyone can get beyond the level of the plausible to a proposal that can be considered likely with a high degree of confidence. There's too much we don't know. If you haven't already, take a look at some of the articles (including some that can be accessed without a library) scholars have written on the Sethian seals, for instance.

[@virginiahansen320]

@@ReligionProf Thanks for the response, Professor McGrath! I'm definitely going to look into the Sethian seals!

[@myjourneys7111]

56:00: Hi Professor James McGrath. You made a prior video about the Mandaeans called "The First Baptists, The Last Gnostic: The Mandaeans," and you said that they were written after the Synoptic Gospels based on the idea that (1) in the Mandaean text "Jesus asks to become John's disciples - offers to mention him in his writings!" and (2) "a voice comes from heaven instructing John to Baptist to baptize 'the deceiver'." However, professor, maybe the writers that wrote the conversation between John and Jesus in the Mandanaean text treated the past no different than how the writers of the Gospels of the New Testament treated the past. Well, what do I mean? Remember when Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels said, "take out the large wood that is in your eye; and, then you can see clearly to take out the little speck of dust that is in your brother's eye"? Perhaps, maybe, we should do that here when comparing both the "gnostic" text of the Mandaeans with the Synoptic Gospels before saying that the Mandaean text was written after one of the Synoptic Gospels. With that said, maybe I can share something I have been pondering and thinking about. With your eyes, I am sure that you will have a deeper view of things into what I am about to share. Here is what I think happened (imperfectly): Point A: The creators of or some scribes of the Mandaean text added words and thoughts to Jesus' mouth in order to give support to their story so that it will make readers think that Jesus said that he "offered John the opportunity to be mentioned in his writings." In the same way, Mark's gospel does the same thing. Mark's gospel adds words and thoughts to Jesus' mouth in order to make readers think that Jesus said something that will support their version of the story, whether it be a political or a pious agenda. In both cases, the writers of the texts were reflecting on the past as time went on; and, both texts are intentionally using Jesus to spread out their ideas and views to the public, reader or follower. They spread out these views in order to direct the reader in the direction the writers desire them to go toward. Point B: In the Mandaean texts, Jesus tells John that he will talk about him in his "future" book in the same way that Mark writes that Jesus predicted the "future" destruction of the temple. The same thing is done in the book of the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament when Gamaliel gives the name to a future Jewish rebeller and a future Jewish revolt (This Jewish revolt and this person did not occur yet until right before the destruction of the 2nd Temple, yet, the writer of the Acts of the Apostles claims that Gamaliel said that the event happened already in the past. But it did not happen in the past, and it had yet to occur.). In both texts, past events have already happened after the fact. In additon, the writers composing their works in the second century knew about those events after the fact and even borrowed from Josephus' works and the Hebrew Bible to form their new stories to support their hero with heavy embellishments. Both books add unique detail that may not be true in order to support their hero or religious-political agenda. Point C: Maybe it is possible that the writers of the Mandaean text added the story of the conversation between John and Jesus, with Jesus featured as a usurper of John the Washer's following so that later scribes from rival movement won't interpolate their text to try to demote John to a subservient level and elevate Jesus' position and important jsut as they did in the Synoptic gospels. For example, in the Synoptic Gospals, Jesus' importance is elevated above Pilate, Herod and other historical figures that were gleaned and copied from Josephus' writings, the Hebrew Bible and other historical events and contemporary sources.

[@soulziwa]

Very Great Dr. McGrath, did you find if the mandaeans are same as Sabians of the marshes or of the Qur'an's Sabians as yet ?

[@ReligionProf]

I believe they are. There is a helpful study by Sunduz that makes the case in detail, and even van Bladel's recent book seems to confirm it.

[@soulziwa]

@@ReligionProf Well, you think is not good answer to go with it as a fact ... I did study myself and i find a lots things - p.s i'm one of Mandeans ( not Sabians ) best regards

[@soulziwa]

May I ask you ... Is john the baptist was mentioned in Torah and his Father zakariya .. thank you

[@thehalalreviewer]

soulziwa No John the Baptist or his family is not in the Torah but only in the New Testament

[@gnosis_5]

And the Nazarenes nazoreans?

[@FrJWF]

The Mandaean script looks an awful lot like Syriac. But with vowels? That would have made learning it much easier!

[@asterakamaran6278]

It is hindu books

[@jakesatoom2448]

dont talk shit its my culture

[@nyqon]

its closest to arabic

[@mikeutube011]

Do you have an insight into the “prophecy” of The Secret Adam please??

[@ReligionProf]

I'm not aware that Drower's book is a "prophecy." Can you explain what you mean?

[@mikeutube011]

James McGrath its my understanding that the mandaeans believe the soul is made of light and is trapped in matter and that this universe is not our true home, that the messiah “the secret adam” will come at the end of the world and creates some form of a device/machine that operationally speaking collects the souls of all who have lived and are living for lack of a better terminology into this object, then transmits the light of our souls to the moon, then venus, then the sun before being sent out of this realm/universe into the realm of the all father and our true home.

[@asterakamaran6278]

I think sadhguru will answer you who was adam kasiya in Hinduism a mysterious man came down to earth named as adiyogi without father and mother his heaven name was mahadev

[@asterakamaran6278]

@@mikeutube011 its is paramatma of Hinduism or sada Shiva purusha the men who is light

[@kirillzapple]

@@mikeutube011 holy shit bro.... where did u read this stuff 🤯

[@gnosis_5]

There’s no much information in Spanish language 😞

[@Johnathan909309]

These amazing people help me understand my own as it makes since that John the Baptist said in the gospels that Jesus must come so that he may decrease. If John and Jesus were part of this group Jesus must not have agreed with the closed system or something hence they find him heretical and John saw he was the one with that task of bringing it to the normal people in a way they can understand but Jesus absolutely did teach secret doctrine as stated in mark I believe and it makes a ton of sense they came from these people and would justify gnostic thinking christians as closer to the root of the christian movement as a whole as this people would be the missing link!

[@gnosis_5]

Interesting

[@Anaya96133]

Was looking for some thing about Madains I thought it was extinct I read about them in the Quran

[@ReligionProf]

Yes, the Sabians mentioned in the Qur'an are indeed still around!

[@ReligionProf]

Yes, the Mandaeans are mentioned using their older name, Sabians, which is still in use and is found in their writings. They are mentioned alongside Jews and Christians.

[@gnosis_5]

@@ReligionProf the nazoreans or Nazarenes are sabeans?

[@ReligionProf]

The Mandaeans use the term nasurai. How it relates to Nazorean is still a disputed matter in linguistics. Nazarene may or may not have the same connotations. Sabians (those mentioned in the Qur'an) are baptizers/immersers. Another group with an astral religion located in Harran also used the term. Sabaeans are a different group than these, historically located in and around Yemen. You need to be clearer about what groups you are asking about since similar names abound around the globe and across time down the ages.

[@gnosis_5]

@@ReligionProf long hairs?

[@yvonnethompson8758]

my mum is Mandaen and Romany. My father a Mandaen priestly scholar and Hungarian Romany. Romany also prefer to live by running, live water. The belief system is sacred and my name does not reflect my heritage as my parents were assassinated when i was a child. I was given to others.I adhere to the culture, tradition way of life even though ; being different challenges others who lack understanding and embody fear and ignorance.

[@watermelonlalala]

Do they have mosquitoes in those marshes? Just wondering.

[@who6184]

There is a difference between YAHUWAH ELOHAI TSEVA’OTH of the Shamayim and the demiurge/samael ,samael did. great this material world we love in,another reason how hasatan was able to offer our master YAHUSHA Hamashiach as far as the eye can see ,and the one who gave the Torah is TMH Abba YAHUWAH ELOHAI TSEVA’OTH of the Shamayim,He gave the Torah to us so we wouldn’t act as the heathens do ,the children of the serpent act wickedly.

[@rursus8354]

Jesus was the heretic. According to the Mandeans. As for _"we're the Gnostics"_ there *were* groups identifying themselves as Gnostics, among the para-Judaic movement foremost the Ophites and Sethians, but also some Alexandrian Christians. _"Mandean"_ allegedly means _"knower,"_ so _"gnostic"_ should mean _"similar to the Ophites, Sethians, and Mandeans."_ The critics of the term criticize it rather since it appears that it merges with Christianity the farther back in time we go, so their objection is based on wishfull thinking, therefore the weird idea of _"demiurgic Christianity."_

[@watermelonlalala]

I agree. They want to complain about Christians twisting things or making mistakes. "None of them called themselves "Knowers", er, except for the Mandaeans, who are standing right here, but pay no attention..."

[@dfgfdsfsdfsdfds5349]

yeshua is aramaic/hebrew for jesus just saying cough cough

[@dfgfdsfsdfsdfds5349]

and it seems to call him salvation

[@dfgfdsfsdfsdfds5349]

so no yeshua is not a heretic according to the mandeans

[@sinanjader7083]

It is unfortunate that such a university professor is having these, misleading/ wrong information about the Mandaean. 1.Jordan river mean nothing to Mandaean, however it is the euphrates river as the most holy river to us. 2. The jew Mark Lidzbarski, came up with this kind of fabrications in order to assign the Mandaean history and religion to Jewish. 3. Jerusalem we mentioned in our books it was located in Mesopotamia and not Israel. The truth is that it is not worth watching this biased movie, however I only given the above as an example.

[@ReligionProf]

It would be helpful if you were to provide evidence and arguments for your claims. For instance, if you wish to argue that the Mandaean technical term for baptismal water, yardna, has no connection with the Jordan, then you need to argue that case. If you are going to claim that all sources from ancient Jewish and Christian authors, dated earlier than the form in which we have our earliest Mandaean texts, are all forgeries or were confused about where Jerusalem was, then you need to make that case. The Jerusalem with which John the Baptist and Jesus were associated by these ancient Christian and Jewish authors is clearly the one in Judaea. You also fail to offer any evidence that there is a place in Mesopotamia known as Jerusalem, never mind where it is. Kindly provide this evidence, or otherwise your comment will simply appear to be driven by ideology rather than concern for truth and historical accuracy.

[@salshather]

You met people mainly who are trying to transliterate the Mandaean religion and did not research the Mandaean religion. You touched on the meaning of Yardena as Jordan River, and this is a mistake that the Mandaean does not approve of, because the translation of theYardena in Mandaean means running water, that’s our book the Ginza Rabba says you have to baptises in Yardena which means the running water, and you can use the English Mandaean dictionary, this claim is rejected and must to apologize for that.

[@ReligionProf]

I'm not sure what people you are referring to. My research is in scholarly sources related to the history of religion and linguistics. I suspect that you have consulted a popular dictionary of Mandaic that includes its use in Neo-Mandaic. I'll direct your attention to the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon online here as a first step towards hopefully understanding that your complaint is not based in the work of linguists but in other concerns. cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=yrdn%20N&cits=all

[@salshather]

@@ReligionProf yes Mr McGrath, that’s what I mentioned, cause in your lecture mentioned that in Mandaean Yardena means river of Jorden, but in the book of Mandaean the Ginza Rabba mentio that the Yardena means running water and nothing to do with river of Jordan, and the link you send in Jewish language explanation not Mandaean which is different , do you have an idea about the hundereds of Mandaean books are stolen from Iraqi museum on 2003 through the American invasion, some says it’s in Israel ( God knows ). Regards.

[@ReligionProf]

@@salshather You are absolutely correct that yardna denotes flowing water, but its origin does seem to most linguists to have a connection with the Jordan. John's (i.e. Yahia's/Yuhana's) activity baptizing in the Jordan is documented from Christian sources. I had not heard about Mandaean books stolen from Iraq, a tragedy if they are lost. Please tell me more and I will happily look into this!

[@salshather]

@@ReligionProf thanks Doctor, trust me nothing to do with river of Jordan, but as some said there is an area on river of Jordan called Al maghtas, I visited this area and looked like there is a place suitable for baptism but till now there is no proof, “ The Dead Sea Scrolls contain approximately 850 manuscripts, some of them from the Bible, that were found by a Palestinian shepherd between 1947 and 1956 in 11 caves in Wadi Qumran (near Khirbet Qumran on the northern coast of the Dead Sea. The scrolls have a great religious influence because they are the only manuscripts related to the Bible Written by 100 AD.” This article between brackets what they found as related to Mandaean but as you see it’s not, even they found some pots with some drawing and they thought it’s Mandaean Alfa Bet but it’s not. In the meantime I will search in our books . Regards

[@ReligionProf]

The Dead Sea Scrolls are a different topic. Mandaic incantation bowls have been found at many sites in Mesopotamia but not a Qumran. Simply saying "trust me" is not adequate. I understand that for you and perhaps for many Mandaeans today, yardna has no connection to the Jordan River. When I am discussing this topic I am speaking of the origin and historical significance of the term, associated with John the Baptist's activity in and near the Jordan River. Does that make sense?

[@rursus8354]

1. Whether the Sabians were really Mandeans, we actually *cannot* know. The Mandeans self-identify as such in order to avoid islamic persecution, and probably because of Sabian/Subbah/Baptism, but that connection isn't that clear. There are indications that there might have been other Sabians, so we cannot *presume* that Sabians = Mandeans, 2. It is wildly unclear in this video that the Aeons aren't connected to stars, but the archons (bad angels) are identified with the planets. Mandeans and the original Gnostics (Ophites) regarded stars as bad and connected with *fate* which is the tool of the *archons* to imprison us in this corrupt world, and worse, the planets themselves *were* the archons. Mandeans still use astrology to disarm the archons and open a way up to the Aeons/Pleroma/Heavens. For this ref April D DeConick aprildeconick.com/

[@ReligionProf]

There certainly have been debates throughout Islamic history about the identity of the Qur'an's Sabians, but the Mandaeans, referred to in Islamic literature as the Sabians of the marshes, are the best candidate, and a number of scholars have made a convincing case. It isn't certain, as with so many matters of history. But it is likely.

[@saralzuhairi9362]

@@ReligionProf i am Sabean/Mandaean and i don't understand what you guys have just said. Sabeans and Mandaeans are the names of my religions people u can use both we arent seporated or anything.

[@watermelonlalala]

@@saralzuhairi9362 Mandaeans, please make your own videos, and don't let USA "scholars" have too much influence.

[@rursus8354]

​@@saralzuhairi9362 Yes. But we are discussing the origins of Mandaeanism, since that's the only Gnosticism that is alive. Refer to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism and www.gnosis.org/library.html (pardon these inferior links, but it is a start), aprildeconick.com/ (she's good, really!), and this www.pdfdrive.com/gnosis-the-nature-and-history-of-gnosticism-e188019217.html and www.amazon.com/Ancient-Gnosticism-Traditions-Birger-Pearson/dp/0800632583 . We also discuss some in the Facebook group The Nag Hammadi Library: facebook.com/groups/397465535297/?multi_permalinks=10164495360885298&notif_id=1606579971098871&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif (but there are lots of neo-Gnostics there, and they most often really don't understand the basics of Gnosticism).

[@ReligionProf]

I haven't heard Muslims say that Sabians are Muslims - I am surprised that you have encountered that viewpoint, given that they are clearly mentioned as a distinct religious tradition in the Qur'an and other Muslim sources.

[@kussiacool1982]

لماذا تبحث عن تاريخ المندائين عزيزي الاصلع ؟

[@jakesatoom2448]

Hi Habib elbi une mendai

[@jakesatoom2448]

Inte shlonek in zen

[@kussiacool1982]

@@jakesatoom2448 اني هم زين حبيبي

[@aaajojoaaa]

هذا الاصلع استاذ في جامعة ولديه اهتمام ومعرفة اكثر من المندائيين انفسهم مع احترامي للجميع.

[@subhialshather7169]

اعتقد الجاهل في اي شيئ يحاول ان يقرأ و يستمع و يتعلم لكي لا يبق جاهل... اعطني اسم مندائي واحد استطاع اخراج مثل هذه المحاضرة و هذا الحوار .... don't underestimate the people

[@top_gallant]

James thinks Mandaeans are going to hell and they think his jesus is evil. It would be nice if he discussed his own view on that since he opened the door to sharing his personal beliefs by talking about his indoctrination of children in his own religion.

[@ReligionProf]

Sorry, who thinks that? When you say "James" it sounds as though you might mean me and yet I do not hold the views you claim and have no role in indoctrinating children. If you were talking about me, what on earth gave you the impression that I think that or do that? Have you mistaken me for someone else, perhaps?

[@top_gallant]

@@ReligionProf Sunday school is indoctrination.

[@ReligionProf]

@@top_gallant Not the one I teach, and if you bothered to read anything about what I do that can be found publicly online, you'd know that I teach an adult Sunday school class in which I am one of the youngest people present! 🤣

[@top_gallant]

I came to the video to learn of Mandaeans, not McGrath. I dont care about your personal/work life life except the small section were you segwayed into Sunday School. Sunday School generally means indoctrinating children into religion. Of course you're welcome to indoctrinate adults. SInce you opened up to the fact you teach sunday school please explain how that conflicts with the Mandaean faith. Are Mandaeans going to a hell? Do you wish to convert them and teach them in your sunday school?

[@markputt8887]

John the baptist probably died at 30, so, how can he be the most important in history?

[@ReligionProf]

How do you know what age he was when he died, and what bearing does that have on his historical importance?

[@walidmondoy1198]

I am Mandaean with all due respect to your person, but your information is wrong. In principle, before you publish any video and publish information in it, we do not know where you got this information from, and your words certainly cannot change the history. You must investigate the elders of this sect, gather the correct information from them, and compare it in the history of religions and who were the first religions, so that you do not have different information. Of course, these are your personal tricks.

[@ReligionProf]

Sorry, that is not how research into the history of a religion works. The elders of a sect are extremely valuable repositories of knowledge, to be sure, but historians work with ancient sources and when their conclusions show that there has been significant change over time, as is often the case, adherents to a religion sometimes object. The same happens in other religions, it isn't something unique to Mandaeism. If you let me know what you think is wrong, I will happily provide further details about the evidence on which the statement is based - or if necessary will admit an error and correct myself, as none of us is infallible and it is entirely possible either that I made an error or simply did not express myself in a manner that conveyed my intended meaning.

[@steves.camisi1124]

I was born a Mandaean. Unfortunately, most Mandaeans know nothing or very little about their religion. I’m learning much more from academic experts vs. info passed down from religious elders. You’re free to agree or disagree. However, if you’re going to disagree, then please provide your evidence and sources. Using your elder as a reference means nothing if it isn’t backed by a convincing evidence.