The Marvelization of Cinema

[@LikeStoriesofOld]

If you want to support my work and get access to the LSOO Discord server, Q&A's and other fun extras, please consider donating to my Patreon page: www.patreon.com/LikeStoriesofOld Thanks!

[@anthonyjohnson6199]

Oh look another wannabe boomer who doesn't know anything about cinema history and fetishishizes his own childhood by cherry picking only the good movies. Sorry kiddo, over saturation has always been a problem in cinema. Why do you think there were 30 Hop Along Cassidy movies?

[@c0wb0y.crypt0]

It's almost as if taking a multitude of stories that circulate around a centralized theme, can provide the basis for a greater story to be told. Kinda like... The Bible... So is it "Entropic Storytelling"? Or is it "Holistic Storytelling"? I'd argue it's the second of the two... When you look at a broken down puzzle, it appears as Chaos, but once you are provided insight into the holistic outcome of the puzzle, each piece is no Longer "Chaos", but rather, "Disorder"... Which may seem like the same thing, but they aren't... Chaos is determined by the inability to mesh with anything surrounding, not "Meshes with only certain parts, but isn't currently completed" is what disorder is... They are indeed synonymous with one another, but they are not definitively the same as one another.

[@EveryDooDarnDiddlyDay]

I think in terms of "The Whedonization" of TV and movies: Everyone is constantly quipping in an inappropriate yet oh so clever manner.

[@mikayelalikhanyan1587]

I now lost a lot of respect for this dude, he has gone the way of the cinema Chud or whine-drinking cinema uptight, I thought we got rid of this boring style of argument after we compared bad movies to cinema I mean how good does cinema need to be for you to watch and enjoy? also, this isn't cinema it's a TV show stop telling your audience lies, after all that you try to ask for support, no thank you

[@L33tSkE3t]

@@anthonyjohnson6199 What’s a wannabe boomer?

[@_depereo]

Living in NZ when the lotr trilogy was being filmed, it's hard to express how much the entire country got behind the production. Not just government support, but cottage industry, legions of extras travelling from small towns each of whom was dedicated to the source material, backcountry farms picking the best horses, tiny backyard forges, dedicated jewelers examining sketches from various Tolkien works, local helicopter pilots showing the best spots and working long hours. The work showed the passion of the production team but also the supporting passion of millions.

[@veemaxine5257]

Aww that's incredible! I had no idea! Just added a whole nother layer to love about those films 💜💜

[@Puma5]

Yeah! Remember when the same happened for The Rings of Power? LOL

[@Solstice261]

I knew it was important for New Zealanders but this is insane, knowing this makes me appreciate a lot more the commitment, and this is coming from an annoying prick who thought the movie took too many liberties, so yeah a lot of respect for New Zealand, greetings from Spain

[@Tethloach1]

Those movies were huge in 2003 to 2005 everybody loved them

[@Puma5]

@@Tethloach1 They came out in 2001-2003.

[@zeeby24]

Part of marvelization is that it treats the audience of adult media like children, and the audience of children’s media like babies. It assumes that audiences need everything explained to them and they need a fast pace to keep their attention. That’s why older movies feel so refreshing to me, bc they actually give you time and space to breathe and opportunities to wonder and put the pieces together by yourself

[@MGrey-qb5xz]

well looking at today's society they aren't wrong to do so, today's mentality is more soy

[@OwlMoovement]

I found a parallel in your lament to what Egoraptor said of new vs. old video games in his Sequelitis: Mega Man X video. It was an approximated incidence of players saying/feeling "Yeah, I get it" as games try to teach them about themselves. If you can digest the manic, theatrical narrative mode Arin (Egoraptor) takes, it's a good watch.

[@nbeutler1134]

@@MGrey-qb5xztrue which is why we need more actual cinema to clean out the brain rot and maybe sprinkle some attention span into our brains

[@MGrey-qb5xz]

@@nbeutler1134 you mean for the coming generations , the current ones are hopeless

[@GameFuMaster]

@@MGrey-qb5xz you know the cycle. weak men create hard times

[@PyroBlaster]

One point that was in this video that has been something I've been saying for years now: We need stories that END. Not stories that are cancelled. Not stories that exhaust themselves into oblivion. Not stories that change their essence so much in the name of continuation that they don't resemble their origins anymore. I feel a lot of ourselves as an audience are to blame for this. We get so attached to stories that we don't ever want it to end. I sometimes feel like every single person I talk to about this kind of thing simply don't want to see their beloved stories end, and I cannot understand why, if the alternative to it actually ending is always one of gradual disinterest or actual degeneration of what it was before. To me, it doesn't matter how great and amazing a story actually is if it doesn't have an intended ending to it. It's like making an absolutely beautiful and delicious cake only to use sewage as the icing, or keep messing with it until it actually starts to spoil and become rotten when you're still starting to make the icing. What we crave as spectators, readers and story-enjoyers in general is COMPLETE stories. As much as we would love to have something that can last forever, no such thing can exist in regards to narratives. That is a hard truth to accept but it is definitely a necessary one. I can only hope that either the industry realizes that, or the mass of audiences do so in an effective way that it shows itself in the movie industry investor's paycheck.

[@amicaaranearum]

“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”

[@ArjunTheRageGuy]

If there are stories that do the "every ending is a new beginning" thing, then fine with me, rather than just cliffhanger after cliffhanger after cliffhanger after * insert the phrase "cliffhanger after" being copypasted *

[@KyriosHeptagrammaton]

When I finished Brent Weeks "Blinding White" I was struck by the fact that it was the first book series I'd read in the last 5 years that had actually straight up ended the series. Not "The adventure continues" or "and now, another tale in the same universe" just straight up "The good guys fight the bad guys and win, the end." It was actually really refreshing.

[@caleron6945]

I'm a game developer and often analyze games. Just like you're saying how modern movies need to tell stories that have an ending, games these days don't quite hold the same quality as they used to (in my opinion) because so many of them are not designed to have an ending. Today's games all want to be franchises and games-as-a-service and want to keep you hooked as long as possible. It's exhausting. Maybe I just notice it more with games than movies because you are more actively engaged when playing a game, but I'm just so tired of the games I play not having a proper ending. I just want to move on with my life and focus on something else for a change. Movie franchises these days make me feel the same way. I'm so fatigued by all the Marvel and Star Wars stuff that I once enjoyed that I just can't even be bothered to take note of what they have coming out anymore

[@PyroBlaster]

@@caleron6945 I completely agree with you! While I may not have worded my comment properly, I was referring to stories in general. Be it movies, books, video games, TV series, animations, whatever form it may take. The effect of the expectation of generating as much revenue for as long as possible from creative material like stories (in all previously mentioned forms) is definitely a major contributor to this effect.

[@Gbag34]

I think it's key to recognize that this isn't just noticable in cinema, but other creative mediums as well. Videogames, music, anywhere that passion and creativity used to flourish, it is now so heavily cooperate and reliant on things like nostalgia as mentioned in the video. I don't think this video specifically pertains to just cinema, but society and art in general.

[@jazztronic10]

I see this in books as well. My brother is reading a novel for his book club that is 100% marketed as being "for adults", not youth lit, and it reads like a Tumblr post. Tumblr posts can be enjoyable in their own context, with their own brand of snarkiness and exaggeration for the sake of comedy and 3 tone shifts in a single paragraph. In a book that's supposed to have gone through an editing process? It's jarring. It wants to be a space opera and the narration quoted the "while you were doing [thing], I studied the blade" meme Not to mention how many books are being marketed as just a laundry list of tropes. They might not actually be that once you read them, but I think it's telling publishers now think giving 4 tropes they believe apply to the story will sell it better than a proper synopsis. I want to know what the story wants to tell me. I don't care that it's "hurt/comfort, found family".

[@andrewkelly1337]

Well those industries are run by venture capitalists, investment bankers, and marketers so there's the problem

[@neerGdyahS]

You remind me of act-man's videos on Halo:5. The first lengthy videos of the kind that I got into and enjoyed.

[@kaekae1782]

It’s a society thing. Not unique to one thing

[@coleeason9893]

I feel like standup is the least effected out of the bunch@@andrewkelly1337

[@KaregoAt]

Irony poisoning is such a good term. LOTR is a good example of genuine, earnest emotion without the need to wink at the audience obnoxiously while feeling those emotions.

[@Kacpa2]

Irony is poison not just in film, but in people's lives. One who is just reducing everything with endless sarcasm and irony is living a hollow and increasingly miserable life where they attempt to derive to some satisfactiong from being ironic and insult the genuine. Its effectively variant of self-loathing except used against everything externally aswell, and just like self-loathing just shoves people down pit of depression same way being chronicly ironic/sarcastic person will wear down their psyche and cheapen any expierence in life they might have or turn people away from them. First as a mild annoyance later as increasing disdain for such person. Marvel just showing it everywhere as stand in for comedy and in grander scheme of things popular media as a whole is ruining worldviews nad atittiudes of thousands of young people who thing being ironic is how they should approach life, which leads to wider societal problems we see envelop our world now. Its behind this wave of selfishness and insincerity, when people need the exact opposite to live good and happy lives...

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

Inspiring a feeling in someone and then mocking and belittling them for feeling it is actually a form of emotional abuse.

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

@@Kacpa2 I recently watched (again) one of my favorite movies: Ladyhawke. On its surface, it's a love story, but as I've grown older, I've come to realize that it's the story of noble souls lifting people up out of misery and cynicism by their pure example. We need MORE stories like that, fictional and real.

[@MellowMutant]

I agree

[@tubetorpedo]

Irony (like great many others things, physical and immaterial) is like medicine. Works great if dosage is right amount for the situation, use too much it becomes poison.

[@lluisperegrino7832]

"It's like the weekly adventure has become the daily homework" is honestly a brilliant summation of the exhaustion everyone seems to be feeling.

[@zarailly]

Definitely! Things are no longer enjoyable as they once were ...

[@PathofCultivation]

@@zaraillyReward centre burnout due to chronic internet / smart device usage. Eliminate home internet and you will begin to rebalance.

[@Ty-ri7dy]

The same thing that happened to MMOs: daily "assigned" tasks to be completed as if on a checklist, as opposed to the free-form "choose-your-own" adventures of the old school. Media has stopped requesting audience to think.

[@BORN753]

Why then everyone keeps consuming this cancerously popular and meaningless shit? I stopped carrying about Marvel at the time Iron Man 3 came out. I saw Avengers and this was the end for me. It was so boring it made me angry. Then, after a while, I saw Doctor Strange, and it was the same shit. There is no reason to watch it, why do you watch it?

[@arthas640]

typical hollywood: they find a formula that worked because it was so unique and they beat it like a dead horse until it's not just stale but reviled. Reminds me of how there were a million shaky cam found footage movies after the Blair Witch Project or how there was a flood of slasher films set in the woods after Friday the 13th. Now every exectutive seems to ask "cant we make this into a shared universe?" even without laying down any kind of ground work first. I dont even watch Marvel programs anymore because i missed one of the Avengers movies and there are so many references and plot points I missed that I couldnt really watch other movies that came after so i just gave up on the franchise as a whole. The fact every movie felt the same doesnt really help, even with a completely different cast and crew its less like a different movie and more like an episode in a series, or like a Seth McFarland show where even with different characters it still feels like Family Guy 7.0

[@nixvulpesz]

The lotr point you made is golden. LOTR feels like a trilogy made to be remembered instead of made to make money. The world building, the storytelling, the characters: everything had so much passion and dedication in it. All the characters feel real, they have real emotions and they have realistic dialogue. Lotr feels like home. I feel like rings of power was made because lotr was successful and had a good fanbase, not because they really wanted to show the world Tolkien made.

[@markmuller7962]

That's what genuine passion does Edit: Also money because (unpopular opinion) there's a lack of it nowadays due to piracy

[@inksplosiongames]

Absolutely

[@Диего_де_ла_Вега]

@@markmuller7962 The amazon series the rings of power has a bigger budget than the Peter Jackson's Trilogy mate, most marvel trashfires do too. Your opinion isn't unpopular, it's wrong.

[@markmuller7962]

@@Диего_де_ла_Вега First of all you can't extrapolate a trend from individual subjects, go inform yourself and get your method straight. In addition "rings of power" is not a Hollywood movie, it's a TV series. With your reasoning we might end up talking of videogames but let's stop right there shall we

[@Диего_де_ла_Вега]

@@markmuller7962 Look at the marvel movies then, the budget grew from Ironman to the latest marvels flop. I don't think you fathom how expensive modern movies are with all the CGI and extensive reshoots. Yes they look cheap and amateurish but they have way more money put into them than ever before. The Hobbit movies were more expensive than the Lord of the Rings'. The latest Indiana jones flop had a bigger budget than the three good indiana jones movies put together. How can you say there's less money in hollywood?

[@Admiralkirk95]

It's genuinely impressive just how far big movies will go to not have a 'real' moment in a movie. To completely stomp out any genuine moments between characters by adding one final line that makes the entire conversation become a joke. It works sometimes, it really does. The right characters with the right relationship can nail a scene. Where the comedy is part of the discusion they are having to ease tension. But instead alot of times it's meant to basically derail the impactful moment at the last second and segway out of it to the next scene. Either delaying the actual impactful part of the conversation or undermining its meaning.

[@tonoornottono]

‘it’s always sunny’ gets away with this basically every episode because it’s rooted in the characters and you’re SUPPOSED to see them as cynical assholes with no empathy. weird they keep doing it with ‘charismatic’ leads (they never have charisma)

[@morganqorishchi8181]

It's baffling to say this, but I find the Marvelization of cinema and the fear of having a genuine moment means that, despite technically being Gen Z, I feel too old for these movies. When I was a teenager, I remember being afraid to have genuine moments and forcing a joke. But now, despite not being much older, I already find this so trite, forced and immature. Adults can talk about something serious and be serious. It's something you learn to do in college. And when I see a character twice my age, who I grew up with, unable to be sincere, it just makes me go, "...why is this grown adult joking right now?" at best or, "ah, yes, the corporate mandated meme lines have struck" at worse, totally taking me out of any immersion there was to be had.

[@tonoornottono]

@@morganqorishchi8181 i completely agree with you, it feels like i’ve outgrown characters i thought were adults when i was younger. a culture i thought was adult.

[@Admiralkirk95]

@@morganqorishchi8181 I think what frustrates me more is that it will be serious and the 'lesson' of the movie is happening and they will cut it short so this very obvious lesson gets postponed for the end. Like stretching the script in a way. But yes, it's frustrating that sdaults can't act like adults. It's ok when someone deflects with humour andyou know they are definetly not a touchy feely character and need alot more to express themselves. But when everyone does it? Jesus, it's so annoying.

[@SubvertTheState]

​@@morganqorishchi8181 "Cast not your pearls before swine." What you are describing is everyone always making sure they remind each other to be swine. I think this has to do with feminism. Feminism is anti-patriarchy and anti man. Its deconstructivist. Its not going to construct anything... Constructions are so last year. The inability of these people to be sincere is the most clearly obvious with selfish women. They will be passive aggressive, make light of mens issues like addiction, suicide and war, and if theres any public criticism if they go viral then "I was obviously joking." This adolescent narcissism, the inconsiderate nature of this bald faced lie, and its audacity. Thats a problem. Its openly displaying to the world "Yeah im evil to other people for no reason, but i dont care, i like me." Thats really it. Thats the whole hero's journey for the selfish, vain, sadistic and unconscious clone out of the mindless drone army of millions. Literally being controled by algorithms which Zuckerberg or Musk can edit tonight. This is f8cking bad guys. Its not just "movies arent very good anymore" Its, its not very good to live. I think we all need to be truthful, thats the only hope.

[@cantstopthefunk22]

This is why I loved the new Dune so much. No irony, no inappropriate jokes. It took itself and its story seriously. It didn't constantly undermine its own characters and themes. Seeing that movie for the first time gave me a new hope for blockbuster movies, and science fiction especially

[@MamadNobari]

It also helps that it's made by the best director alive.

[@rawman44]

Yeah. Unfortunately Dune is the exception, not the new rule.

[@TehWaltorn]

they did slip one in near the beginning, duncan quipping with paul about his height. i feel like it was there purely to be put in a trailer.

[@MamadNobari]

​@@TehWaltorn Oh yeah I forgot about that lol. But let's not act like quipping and jokes are inherently bad or that Marvel invented jokes. Hell, even in LOTR which is the focus of this video, they joke and quip during the battles. It's not like two friends joking with each other in a movie is an automatic death sentence for that film and its integrity. The problem is when those jokes are used, as the original commenter said "inappropriately". Yeah, that Dune scene was kinda not that great too, but they didn't use that or joke when a character was dying or they didn't use jokes and quips in the middle of a serious scene. Just like LOTR didn't use those jokes when a character dies or in a serious and emotional scene just to alleviate the scene so it wouldn't be too emotional or serious for the audience or going "hey guys, we know this is all fiction and kinda corny. It's a bit cringe, right? Aren't we cool for acknowledging this?" and all that stuff.

[@pheunithpsychic-watertype9881]

Sometimes too seriously. The sterile muted color schemes where dune isn't devoid of different colors. That's why the original while stupid and inane still feels better to look at.

[@victoriacara3846]

When Martin Scorsese said that Marvel wasn't cinema and they're "closer to theme parks than they are to movies", he got a lot of backlash. Now, everyone is realizing he was right the whole time.

[@Natta44]

He must be feeling very smug while the mcu crashes. I always thought the mcu was great for what it was. Just another form of entertainment. But everything gets ruined eventually when it gets milked.

[@godfreyofbouillon966]

No. Lots of people agreed with him back then and they still agree with him now. Those who didn't back then, they still don't now.

[@causal_internetuser]

Just justifies why I never liked marvel in the first place

[@ProfKisuto]

It wasn't always like that though. It is now... :(

[@BinkoBunko]

I think its because people saw it as some sort of slight or negative because they forgot that theme parks are still fun, but for a different reason. Watching some weird (in a good way) A24 film vs a Marvel movie can both be enjoyable but for different reasons. The former is more an art piece that conveys a great story and a message, leaving you thinking. The latter is a blockbuster of grand battles between aliens and humans with super powers, its all flash, little substance. You can enjoy your theme park ride, just dont forget that at the end of the day thats what it is, a flashy theme park ride. You know how it starts, you know how its going to end, but the ride in the middle is the fun. There's no greater message to riding the roller coaster, just that it can be a brief fun escape.

[@AliothAncalagon]

I still remember fondly how the artisans of the LOTR team modified a custom Rohirrim bike seat for Theoden, because he couldn't sit on a normal chair in his armor and they didn't think that a regular bike seat was what the King of Rohan should sit on. There was more passion and soul poured into this very bike seat than in all the armor of the Rings of Power combined.

[@NakAlienEd]

In the appendices, Benard Hill (Theoden), showed off his armor, which had decals/etchings all along the interior. A detail nobody would ever possibly ever see. "It made me feel like a king every time I put it on." -Bernard Hill

[@AliothAncalagon]

@@NakAlienEd Wonderful details like this matter. And it basically reflects Tolkiens own work. The passion and effort you put into your foundation matters. Even if nobody might be able to see it.

[@winterstormmaya]

@@NakAlienEd I must be in a certain mood today because thinking of the care and artistry that someone had (whose name we will probably never know) made me tear up.

[@Snoupity]

@@winterstormmaya Yeah, just reading this comment thread had me starting on the same thing... but the relaxed sadness of the outro music probably contributed as a catalyst.

[@Thy_Boss]

The passion I remember around _Lord of the Rings_ was that of the locals in New Zealand fighting against a gigantic Hollywood studio that stomped all over them with an ex-local at the helm, a sort of passion you won't find in an ad-campaign documentary about how everyone involved fell in love with the project, or, rather, the product.

[@TehNoobiness]

I recently distilled my feelings about corporate moviemaking down to "Corporations don't want storytellers, they want story factories". Entropic storytelling is appealing to corporations because it can be cranked out rapidly; it doesn't rely on coherence, it relies on brand recognition, a thing that business majors understand and can easily make use of. It doesn't require careful writing or passionate cast and crew, which can be expensive and time-consuming, and even more expensive/time-consuming in unpredictable ways; in fact, you can rip entire chunks of story wholesale from existing movies, and you'll be praised for the homage--which means you can save massive amounts of time on figuring out what to do and skip straight to doing it. And, market forces encourage this--because a work of art doesn't start making money until after it's finished, there's immense economic pressure on the team to spend as little time in pre-production and production as possible, because every hour worked is an hour of wages that has not yet been recouped. All of this pushes companies (and filmmakers!) toward making films by the numbers, because doing it in any other way means taking risks that are--in the opinion of those who believe in the story factory--unnecessary.

[@bencaldwell6032]

i think it also comes down to studios wanting -- needing -- the illusion of control in a process where control is not really possible. (it's not even trying to create actual control, just creating the illusion of control, which is much easier.)

[@TehNoobiness]

@@bencaldwell6032 That's a part of it, yeah. Publishers want a guarantee that a story will sell. There's no real way to do that, but there's plenty of fake ways to do it.

[@littlecommie27]

The profit motive is something that sucks art dry. The need to make money out of art b/c otherwise you won't eat (or b/c you want more money) is a disservice to humanity really. It is really sad that we produce so much food and yet so many are starving. That we have created buildings that reach the clouds, and yet many have nowhere to live. That we have the means to support better life conditions for all 7bi of us, and yet we don't b/c the costs in the short term are too large. Most people if they had their basic necessities fulfilled, they would be free to make incredible projects and to live better in general. All of us would, instead of having to work a job that doesn't add anything to society b/c we need the money.

[@Quenry]

I swear they're already using AI to write some films and not telling us, Marvel is enough of a trope at this point even a computer could write it. Jokes on us though, we're the ones who keep buying tickets.

[@deenrqqwe6794]

And that’s why AI has become a thing

[@Vain737]

One thing I've noticed in the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy: Whenever a Lightsaber is drawn in anger, something significant happens. Someone either loses a limb or loses their life. A Lightsaber drawn in anger CHANGES things. in Disneywars however, it's just flashing lights and colours, followed by someone running away. It's pathetic how they've reduced such a meaningful thing to a mere lightshow.

[@fruz1378]

Disney wanting to make as much money as possible, to target as many people as possible ..... yep

[@drewwhite181]

No hate, but I think this comment is part of the reimagining the Prequels as good, when they never were. Lightsabers were rare and few in the original trilogy, and each time they were activated something significant happened, but I don't think this was true in the prequels. Obi Wan and Qui Gon whipped them out real quick in Phantom Menace for that sweet, sweet nostalgia, and in Attack of the Clones, we had a horde of Jedi swinging them around, which cheapened their meaningfulness and effect.

[@eyeballtickler]

​@@drewwhite181correct. Fan of it all but incredible what nostalgia does to some people

[@nicoleblank4138]

I also think this has to do with CGI becoming cheaper and easier. This results in films over capitalizing on special effects/computer graphics and investing nothing in telling the story that leads to a larger moment.

[@d00mf00d]

You been watching Red letter Media?

[@emeraldviqueen]

A lot of creators seem so scared of being sincere. We’ve become jaded. We need more Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. We need more movies willing to embrace the storytelling elements that are “corny” and engaging with them honestly. Corny is only bad when its hollow, you have to mean it and take it seriously for it to work

[@xaviar10]

Yeah but hollywood is hollow, gotta write what you know

[@Dowlphin]

Reminds me how I loathe pun apologism.

[@psiimpresiones]

You don't have to mean it ironically, or metaphorically, or any other fancy way. You have to mean it straight up ;)

[@probablylucky6671]

@@psiimpresiones Nice

[@mycroft16]

The creators aren't scared of being sincere. The execs who write the checks are. You tell writers and directors they have free reign and to go nuts they will gladly do so. But they want their story to be made and released.

[@mchammer5592]

The thumbnail nails something I hadn’t even noticed. The lighting! In content, there’s just this perfect bloom lighting because everything is on a stage, studio, volume, or set. Location is harsh, but looks real, it’s not always flattering but that’s part of it. But if your goal is to make your beautiful star always beautiful, everything is gonna look different

[@ReformSaba]

11:41 that little joke is actually fantastic and VERY true to D&D. When playing D&D and you finish a big bad evil guy, you may be asked to describe the finishing move. In this scene you can almost hear the player saying “So I grab them! And you know that bit in Avengers with the Hulk and Loci?….” The whole film is also working on that other higher level where players choose to do random and cheesy stuff.

[@Tigersight0]

I noticed this too. It *all* was in the little pauses. Characters would stop, just for a moment, and then do something. It literally felt like their player saying 'now I do this!' The most obvious moment of this in the entire movie to me was when Edgin (the bard) tried to cheer up Holga (the barbarian) after she met her now-remarried ex-husband by pulling out his lute and just starting to play a song for her.

[@marina6518]

Yeah, in that case it was more like a reference to a real D&D table than truly a reference to nowhere. It's the cheesiness and the anachronisms as well that definitely look like they're being translated form a tabletop game.

[@НикитаНикита-ъ3щ]

I think this is an example of how people who know too much about movies can confuse things :) I watched all the mentioned movies but didn't even think about that Halk joke. Not every similarity is a reference.

[@milleniumfrisbee]

To this day I feel like half the writing was from the staff actually playing dnd and being like "Okay that was good, let's use that." My evidence? The illusion spell freaking out had to have been a critical failure in an actual game once.

[@lizd2943]

@@milleniumfrisbee They had the cast play many hours of D&D as their characters before filming started.

[@purpleguy3000]

I feel like a lot of modern media is afraid to be itself. You can see it in classic horror movies or japanese godzilla that while they're not always good they're films with an identity and not just a name. This can go in multiple ways, like Marvel's need to constantly joke about how silly it is people run around in costumes or how stories which could stand on their own get attached to a property and dilute it for name recognition's sake.

[@Heartwing13]

They won’t be genuine anymore. There was another good video on this. The trope talk on bathos.

[@bobmcbobbington9220]

There is no "self" in a premade nostalgic package

[@sudanemamimikiki1527]

i agree. marvel movies also used to be more serious (as serious as superhero movies can ever be) but then it feels like they just kinda lost their faith in the series and made it more tongue in cheek later on. just compare earlier thor movies to the later on thor movies. there is such a world of difference in how they treat their stories.

[@redwitch12]

@@sudanemamimikiki1527 The first two Thor movies were downright Shakespearean--solemn and dramatic, but with dashes of humor to lighten the stories without undercutting them. The third starts a downhill slide, mocking the main character like he needs to be punished for the terrible sin of being a powerful masculine figure and making him the butt of just about every joke, and the fourth one just ran harder with that.

[@TipsyBoy101]

Absolutely right. That's why the DUNE franchise feels way more refreshing then it actually is, or something like ANDOR. Those stories take themselves seriously and form their own identities, and rise above poking fun at themselves because they believe audiences are smarter and can be more invested than Marvel or other properties give them credit for

[@fredkelly6953]

It started with Thor Ragnarok for me. I like Waititi's humour but there were a number of moments in that movie where a strong emotional connection could have been made but he fell back on quippy one liners. It was not only a missed opportunity to take the movie to the next level but it cheapened the moment. It's only gotten worse from there to be sure where everyone is doing it and they wonder why they're losing audiences. You have to go deeper than surface to make a lasting impression but studios only seem to have fast food on the menu.

[@davidwright4201]

Not sure which one came first but guardians 2 and Thor Ragnarok both had over the top ridiculous humor, so glad they dialed it back for guardians 3, wish I could say the same for the last thor but I quit the movie after they made the joke "half of our army got killed"...."half of our army always gets killed".... I rolled my eyes and turned it off.

[@feickpehbehehy]

The abuse started with Iron Man 3.

[@notafan1275]

Same here. They essentially treated the destruction of a whole realm as a joke. To the point where I felt more for Rocket in Guardians 1 ("I didn't ask to be made like this!") than for the people of Asgard.

[@michaelbread5906]

Iron Man was peak, everything after it was not my sauce. I'm glad people are finally coming to realize Marvel for what it is.

[@kachekijaanlega]

looks like fast food is back on the menu boys!

[@alexstrang9823]

I first witnessed the 'irony poisoning' many years ago manifest in comic strips, where clever humour became replaced with basic sarcasm, then it infected television, etc It's yet another form of 'lazy writing'

[@voidshadow]

was the "clever humor" you reference just nostalgia enhanced dad jokes?

[@oshkeet]

The real irony is that kind of thing spread so wide across a cast also dilutes the individual characters who WERE actually built around those traits, making them LESS stand-out or distinctive.

[@PetersPianoShoppe]

It started in the late 80’s/early 90’s. It was cute for about two weeks. And then they never stopped.

[@Trollificusv2]

@@voidshadow Hey now! There's always a place for bad dad jokes. I will agree that that place is NOT "every single character" though.

[@alexstrang9823]

@@voidshadow no it wasn't

[@russelljimenez4715]

I actually think the Chernobyl TV show is a great example of anti-entropic filmmaking. They could have turned it into a hero's journey, focusing on the stories of the many people who sacrificed to try to prevent an even bigger disaster. They could have over-dramatised the explosion, and made it into an action series with people overcoming adversity to triumph in the face of the evil bad guy, but instead they just told the story, and let it stand on it's own quality, instead of trying to add excitement that it didn't need. Obviously there were some parts that were more dramatised, but they added to the main story. Most of the great films that are mentioned in this piece recognize that less is more. Oppenheimer could have made the movie all about big explosions, but instead chose to make the film about the really interesting story of how the bomb was made, and the politics involved in such a thing. It would have been easy to Marvelise it, but instead they kept it serious, and it is a great film.

[@Brando2301]

To add to your evidence: I first watched the Peter Jackson LoTR trilogy last year, at 21 years old. I have always been a fan of high fantasy but never indulged myself with Tolkien, and even felt a certain stigma towards his work for some reason. I watched the first movie for a class on philosophy. I loved it. I loved it so much that I watched the next two movies immediately after. I loved the TRILOGY so much that I asked my girlfriend to watch them with me. WE loved them so much that we rewatched the extended cut of all three movies a month later. This cinema was *good*. It stood the test of time and was evidence of an era where filmmaking was different. I won't say it's better or worse objectively, but those movies moved me in a way that I hadn't felt since childhood.

[@SuperCatacata]

Seeing LOTR in theatres opening night is still the most memorable cinema experience I've ever had.

[@joyfulyes]

​@@SuperCatacatasame! When the second one came out we re-watched the first one at home before going to the theater. When we went to see the third, we re-watched the first two immediately before. Invited friends over (our D&D group, all huge Tolkien fans) and made it a party! Of course we had differences of opinion on some directorial choices (elves at Helm's Deep, Hobbits to Osgiliath, the change in Gandalf's attitude towards Moria) but we all loved both the books and the movies.

[@namedrop721]

I can’t imagine being super into high fantasy -and then not reading the original high fantasy. What happened to the kids? It’s a genuine question.

[@Brando2301]

@@namedrop721 not sure what you mean about the kids, Tolkien just didn't cross my radar when I was younger. I went back and read the books after seeing the movies, but bear in mind I was already an adult by then lol

[@FraterMikhail]

Im just now wtching it and for being 22 years old, that nearly 4 hours flew by. the story and everything was just so good.

[@tatianar.9907]

This describes so well one of the reasons I think the series “Andor” stands out starkly from so much of the Star Wars content coming out lately. It doesn’t rely on cheap nostalgia baiting and doesn’t even expand on the Skywalker saga but tells the story of the rebellion from another perspective, from the ordinary, non-Force-sensitive peoples’ experience. And it goes back to the core idea of what inspired the Rebellion for those people.

[@linda9581]

Yes exactly! I also want to address the fact that Andor really feels like a long movie. It always gave me the impression that the director had to make a TV series for corporate reasons, but didn't want to force on himself the "TV format" so he just cut the movie into pieces without losing his vision and himself while doing it. If this makes sense, I really think it's a good example of how you can compromise with the corporation, without losing your vision

[@blueskybelyr]

It's literally just sincerity. It lets its characters have heart. Every other show is very aware that it's Star Wars, and comes across as goofy and lazy because the name recognition allows them to do the bare minimum. Andor is a good story that happens to be set adjacent to the Star Wars franchise.

[@TheCharlesFr]

Same! I loved how intimate, fresh and honest Andor felt , I want more of that

[@Wedge4Life]

Wondering if it will last ....or be corrupted like everything else 😢

[@Jasondurgen]

And switching gears to talk about halo in the same manner, I wish 343 or another studio can make a Halo game separate from the master chief again. Like maybe a dedicated flood horror game where you play as a civilian during an infection or a marine/ODST. They rely so much on the Chief and his story should’ve been done after 3. Let the hero slowly drift away in a piece of the old frigate that hauled him around and give another person the stage. Sometimes these franchises create such insane worlds and you only ever see a small part of it across most game entries because these AAA companies nowadays can’t or won’t do anything that won’t rake in an absolutely absurd amount of money. The art is gone mostly

[@outsidestuff5283]

The thumbnail of the video says it all. The look in Viggo Mortensens eyes is full of complex emotion and is so captivating. Its earnest acting and is juxtaposed to the image from rings of power which always rang hollow because it only ever aimed to hit a series of beats to excite the audience rather than looking at a bigger picture and telling a compelling story with well motivated and deep characters.

[@thialhoinj1971]

Too bad thousands of bad non marvel movies exist. Both Logan and taxi driver are great movies. Let's not blame marvel because nobody trying to watch your favorite movies.

[@Vaquix000]

@@thialhoinj1971 What. They didn't even mention marvel ONCE in their comment. I don't know if you're responding to a deleted comment or you're a marvel obsessed lunatic

[@Hyperion4K]

@@thialhoinj1971???

[@thialhoinj1971]

@@Hyperion4K marvel has made bad movies recently but who hasn't? Logan, winter soldier,I Infinity war, iron man and more are great movies. Logan and taxi driver are both great movie. Mcu besides recently was a success in everyway for a decade.

[@shinyary2]

@@thialhoinj1971 Logan was Fox, not Marvel. And I'm not sure why you're bringing up Taxi Driver. Anyway of course Marvel's made good movies, the Infinity Saga was pretty impressive as well, but the point is that the general trend they've created in our culture is not a positive one, and they've fallen victim themselves to this negative trend that they've created. It's fine if you still like the MCU. I've enjoyed a few of their more recent shows. But a lot of us are getting really tired of this kind of passionless storytelling that's designed for corporate objectives rather than thematic ones, and this is the point that OP was making, as well as the video itself (edited to remove some slight unintended snark).

[@Element8909]

I read the original LOTR books when I was 11 years old, which was the year before the first film, The Fellowship of the Ring, was released, and I had read the Hobbit first, probably as a 10 year old. I still remember hearing that there were movies coming out and agonizing that the films couldn't possibly capture the depth of the books I had just read. Needless to say I was wrong, and today those three films are still among my favourites of all time. They really do capture the 'ancient magic'. I feel lucky to be old enough to have experienced early childhood and adolescence in an analogue, pre-internetified, pre-memefied world. And I'm only 34 years old.

[@eliceus]

Awesome that someone finally addresses the irony problem. It’s just like the narcissistic spirit of mean tweets, puns, “clever” comebacks and comments, and the awful TikTok style, contaminated stories.

[@zyst6]

You might be interested in reading E Unibus Pluram: Television and Fiction by David Foster Wallace. It’s the best writing on the topic of irony in media I’ve ever read

[@jnnx]

“Snark” is a lot older than that. The 1.0 internet is very much built on snark.

[@mecklejay7587]

"Finally"? Audiences have been complaining about it and critics have been analyzing it for over a decade now.

[@tomdekler9280]

@@jnnx Man 1.0 internet wasn't even built on snark, I think we unironically called people we disliked "teh suxorz" with the only irony coming from pretending we were even worse at writing than we definitely were.

[@g.strobl4458]

I don't have a problem with snark and irony, but the problem is, there are too many bad copies of those few well-executed versions.

[@julesjma]

Needed to be said and you said it well, Tom. So much is lost in film now. It's all sensationalist without the sensation. So many franchises blew us away that have become soulless and mechanized.

[@LuisSierra42]

Hollywood is imploding now, so they will have to change

[@anthonyjohnson6199]

It hasn't you just don't know anything about history.

[@toecutterjones]

My thoughts exactly.

[@Indigo_1001]

Didn’t both Star Wars and LotR become merchandise by the Prequels and Hobbit trilogy respectively?

[@mikayelalikhanyan1587]

my biggest question is how does a tv show relate to cinema?

[@moustachiomoustache8933]

The "Making of LoTR" is honestly absolutely amazing. Aside from being incredibly detailed and explaining and showing the film-making process extensively, it included a ton of personal moments between the crew and the actors. It's genuinely very wholesome to watch, but also strengthens the connection to the characters in the movies. I was really happy to see it talked about in this video (which was fantastic by the way). Brought back memories of watching this "Making of LoTR" series with my family.

[@AimlessAbyss]

The part where it shows Elijah Wood's last day of filming always makes me tear up. Peter Jackson just doesn't want to stop asking for more takes, until he finally does and they have this long hug. So emotional.

[@arthas640]

Lord of the Rings is almost unique in that regard. It's so amazing a franchise and such a great production made by people who loved making it that even people who arent rabid fans will sit down and watch the making off with as much enthusiasm as if they were viewing a blockbuster movie.

[@AlmendraBaez]

On the Owlbear smashing scene, this makes sense to people that plays RPG such as D&D. It's a reference that we as players would make, because movies would inspire us. This feeling of being "playing" D&D was very well done by that movie, through language and those type of references. The bulk character smashing the magic one makes a lot of sense for D&D and other context as well. Wizards are a crystal canon (low life, lot's of damage), if your melee get him, he's done.

[@TopLob]

I'm not convinced of the meta-reference nature of these scenes, although they sometimes try to make it work like that. I think the real reason is that it's all animated for the most part. This is something that has been going on since Disney at least, how their cartoons reuse scenes and movements, but just repurpose them. I think that's the reason all scenes in modern movies are the same. They already have the motion-capture data and the animations. Most of the work has already been done. Just switching out the models and the background, and you have a "new" scene for a "different" movie. Then they just need to fill in the blanks between the repurposed scenes. What we're left with is seeing the same scenes in every goddamn movie.

[@CommanderLexaa]

@@TopLob I found DnD to be the exception tho, everyone I know that plays DnD loves the movie, me and my wife included, cus it feels very much like the dumbass decisions we make with the heart of it too. Disney on the other hand, since Enchnanted has been trying to be more meta not understanding why Enchanted worked as a movie and its just icky when they do it

[@m.poppins4843]

"Wizards are a crystal canon" so glass canon but more... precious? That def sounds like a wizard.

[@CliffDiverBOA]

Movies these days are afraid to have truly heartfelt moments between characters. Every time you feel there is going to be some genuine emotion it gets undercut by a gag, or it's nostalgia baiting by showing a dead actor and forcing you to feel sad about it (looking at Ghostbusters: Afterlife). Movies these days that let characters really show caring, even with the cheesiest of dialogue, can be really moving.

[@sekh765]

Thor: Ragnarok was really really bad about this. Thor gets big damn speech about how he's gonna have to do things himself without Hulk's help. Music Swells. He goes to break the window to escape, hits himself in the face. So stupid.

[@shaansingh6048]

@@sekh765 and Ragnarok is actually probably one of the best implementations of this kind of stuff... since then it's only gotten worse.

[@sekh765]

@@shaansingh6048 I'd agree with that. Love and Thunder was a disaster of bathos.

[@Heartwing13]

See: trope talk on bathos

[@ynemey1243]

I don't think people know what "chessy" dialogue is anymore. People like Tarantino ruined that for people.

[@SaberRexZealot]

The sincerity vs irony argument is so emphatically true. That shit in blockbusters has been bugging me for years. So many of them completely undercut their own emotional impact for a cheap joke. It’s beyond frustrating at this point.

[@olderthanyouLouisville]

I couldn't quite put my finger on why I didn't enjoy IT Chapter 2 as much as I enjoyed the first movie, but this nails it exactly. Constantly cutting to Bill Hader for one-liners lowered the stakes and took me out of the suspense and fear. Even though I appreciated the extra-textual references to movies like The Thing, they took me out of the movie's world.

[@bingobongo1615]

I am so thankful Dune didnt do that…

[@MarleyH2022]

So true. Case and point for me was where in the new star wars, Rey finally finds Luke and when she gives him the lightsaber after the entire build up... he throws it away - in a way thats obviously for comedic effect. Completely undercut the tension and importance of the story for that cheap joke. Very disappointing

[@AlexisHiemis]

It's why I think the Lord of the Rings still works. It has humor, but when it's sincere, it's really feeling all the feelings. Characters cry and scream and grief, they make desperate pleas, and when they ride into battle, you can feel that it's a fight for their life. With Marvel, it always feels like nobody takes their fights seriously, and when they suddently do take it seriously and try to build up drama, it doesn't work.

[@bingobongo1615]

@@AlexisHiemis yeah, Lotr had Gimli + Legolas to make battles less serious and some jokes like Gandalf "scaring“ Sam but overall no big emotional moment is undercut.

[@HoopsAndDinoMan]

To add to the conversation, something I feel is missing today is diversity in genre and target audience. In my personal experience, growing up in the 90s and 2000s, you had G rated movies that even toddlers could enjoy, like the Pixar and Disney renaissance cartoons, and then you had PG movies like Jumanji, Zathura, or Dinosaur, which, while still aimed at kids, had more of an edge to them, with elements of horror and heavy action. Watching those for the first time was like getting a taste of something forbidden, like you knew this was definitely for older kids, and it made you feel like more of an adult. Then you had PG13 movies like the Jurassic Park, Spiderman, and LOTR trilogies that were made specifically for adults, but if you were a kid in the double digits watching with your parents, you could probably handle it ok. Maybe even some high school comedy like Mean Girls or 10 Things I Hate About You caught your eye and you'd get a glimpse of the world of WAY older kids, which was fascinating to a preteen. Nowadays it seems like everything that isn't rated R is either a cartoon for toddlers that's rated PG but really should be G, or a marvelized PG13 movie that's designed to appeal to literally all ages. It's like everything has to be a hybridization of everything, scifi, action, comedy, romance (but no horror, can't have that), and all those elements are trying to hit that perfect medium where teens and adults without kids will be interested, but parents feel safe bringing their kids too, so as many tickets can be sold as possible. Marvelized movies are for grown-ups, but also sanitized to the point where kids won't be scared off. No more action movies with horror aspects, no more adult comedies, nothing is genre specific or age group specific, at least not to the degree it was before.

[@oscarstainton]

Having seen and enjoyed your videos, it's a pleasant surprise to see you here. That's a great point you raise about how diverse the film landscape of the pre-2010s was. The hybridization effect isn't even like an organic blend of genres, but like a Frankenstein's Monster of different styles, approaches, and production values, with little cohesion. Marvel Studios really did kneecap the film landscape.

[@agilemind6241]

@@oscarstainton I has been a broader slower moving phenomenon than just Marvel. Marvel has just because the figure head because it dominated a whole decade of cinema. But if you look at big budget animated films the trend of corporate production with no sincerity has been there much longer. Shrek is probably the stand out there back in 2001 (8 years before the MCU) and really kicks off the pop culture referencing, meta-commentary, irony-laden insincerity. Hopefully this peaked with the "Emoji Movie" but we'll have to wait and see. I suspect it is a some kind of cognitive bias, with producers and studios seeing in the flops what they want to see - e.g. audiences just don't want X kind of movie - rather than the reality that they made a bad movie. In general, I find people tend to overestimate their ability to BS, and underestimate the ability of others to see through that BS.

[@axiss5840]

A broader audience means, to the marketting department, more money. Sanding off edges until everything looks the same.

[@bismarckluna]

This also happens with videogames. A lot of mainstream productions try to have everything in them, also trying to appeal to the widest demographics. By being jacks of all trades they end up being masters of none, which is why niche projects are the most satisfying.

[@sagejennings4342]

I really think on top of this, people need to deprioritize playing to a demographic. Storytellers should just...want to tell stories.

[@abigailblackmon1144]

I think you summed it best when you described the problem with so many shared universes failing because the studios viewed shared universes as marketing devices instead of story telling devices. I think that's an idea that applies to a lot of the points that you made, and I don't think I've ever seen someone explain it so succinctly before.

[@miracle_grrrl_mira]

I feel like this is the conversation I've kept having with my friends for 5-10 years now. it's only gotten worse. thank you for addressing this, it needs to become a larger conversation.

[@rustyshackelford4224]

You're a Scott Pilgrim fan?

[@jansmitowiczauthor78]

Read David Foster Wallace, especially Infinite Jest

[@KyriosHeptagrammaton]

@@jansmitowiczauthor78 DFW predicted the future better than any sci-fi writer. Unfortunately, I live in Canada, so I hope he's at least slightly wrong

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

I’ve tried, and then next thing you know a blumhouse movie is on...

[@konstantina9876]

Wandavision was a turning point for me. It was a passion project that explored grief and loss. And marvel saw it did well and their only takeaway was "clearly we need more shows!" And completely missed the actual love that went into the script and the sets.

[@theflutefreak]

Exactly. Doctor Strange Multiverse felt like it totally ignored all the personal growth that Wanda had in WandaVision. Like, didn't we just do this story??

[@Concetta20]

Yes. I was moved by WandaVision and couldn’t wait to see what would happen next. Same with the first Loki season.

[@melanie62954]

@@theflutefreak Yes! WandaVision was beautiful, and the Doctor Strange sequel just threw all the development away. That was when I checked out of Marvel.

[@henrikvridstoft2774]

Disney was trying to start streaming war at the time, and went with quantity over quality. That's why we to this day, are getting a far cheaper Agatha continuiation, rather than a more expensive Vision continuiation.

[@sybrwookie]

They didn't even make it through the whole show. They made it like 5 episodes, then veered into, "member Quicksilver? Well HA, it's not him, HERE'S A DICK JOKE!" and then kept on going to wrap up this small, intimate story with not 1, but 2 fights of people hanging from wires, throwing CGI at each other (and in one case, a guy throwing CGI at himself!) as the big climax.

[@GanjaLibre]

Fury Road is an example of a passion project that came from a franchise and refined it to its core and made it a better product. George Miller made the ultimate Mad Max movie he always wanted to do but didn't had the resources and budget to film, until the studio finaly greenlit after decade of planing.

[@rustyshackelford4224]

Agreed

[@Senumunu]

ah yeah. the perfect Mad Max movie. Furiosa ! also starring Max, in the role of grunting and driving.

[@wumbosaurus9121]

@@Senumunu Didn't even realise there was another Mad Max movie coming out, thank you

[@rawman44]

Wasn't that movie feminist propaganda though lol

[@Amethyst_Friend]

@@rawman44 No, just feminist.

[@arthurtwa]

as a kid. I watched Jurassic Park and was mesmerized. It became a hobby of mine to look at dinosaurs in museums, books, cds and games dino related. I even got a big, thick hard cover book that only was about the making of the movie. From the storyboard, to every animatronic detail. Remember how we used to buy Soundtracks from movies? I still have my back to the future soundtrack. These movies inspired us. Our culture have degraded to just consume a product that looks pretty and shiny. Excellent video.

[@Vaquix000]

Soundtracks from movies are Extremely bland now, it's very strange... even composers that were once great make a bunch of forgettable stuff, like I listened to the avengers soundtrack from Alan Silvestri and it was so... forgettable and wimpy and this is from one of the best composers, one of the best people at making epic grand battle themes... compare that stuff to his work in Van Helsing, now that's epic music.

[@matteomastrodomenico1231]

This seems a pretty personal experience. I'm pretty sure there are many kids that had the same experience but with Jurassic World.

[@murderduck2246]

@@Vaquix000 I completely agree. Or studios like Disney that just pay big bucks for already great/popular songs and now you're forced to associate a song you love with some shitty fight scene

[@levikennedy1162]

Great essay. I think one major point that has started to ruin many modern movies that I didn't hear mentioned: You don't have to tear down your heroes to introduce new ones. I think this has to do with our modern nihilism, or lack of respect for what previous generations built, but it seems like most sequels nowadays can't help but belittle and tear down their previous heroes, in order to prop up any new ones they're bringing in. The MCU, Star Wars, and Indiana Jones are just some of the biggest examples that pop into my head. One reason Top Gun Maverick was so successful was that they didn't tear down their hero. They gave him new challenges, and had him in a different stage of life, but he was still a force to be reckoned with, who had a lot to share with the younger pilots. I guarantee if Disney had made that movie, they would have made him a washed up has-been, who is shown up by the newer pilots. And nobody wants to see that.

[@sarahcb3142]

Such a good point. When I watched Top Gun Maverick I was expecting there to be many aside jokes about his age, and while there were it was just coming from the young people. He was actually still a strong character and he didn't do little quips like "I'm getting too old for this shit" or "ow my knee! I'm an old man now I guess lolz"

[@legacy5k]

Wow, you are so right. I never noticed this before but now I'm going to be seeing it over and over since you've pointed it out. It's as if they think that there's only a finite amount of dignity to go around, so they have to take it away from the previous hero in order to give it to the new one. And I think a lot of it also comes from society's worship of youth and fear of aging.

[@Manj_J]

@@legacy5k This is spot on!

[@SIFAssassin]

Agreed for the most part, but disagree on Indiana Jones. I thought Dial of Destiny was a respectful send-off for the character. Yeah, it featured him dealing with the struggles of age and fading relevance, but instead of trying to replace or belittle him, it honors the character and lets his story come come to a gentle and poignant end.

[@stevendouglas3781]

The tearing down of old cultural heroes is the whole point of those movies.

[@squigglewacks]

As a Lead VFX artist who has worked on many marvel movies, I agre with the lack of passion. It is very easy to tell if a movie is made with passion VS made for corporate profits. Working on the Barbie movie this year really relit the spark in me. Everyone was having a great time and everyone's jaws dropped when they saw the barbie house sets for the first time. There was a lot of love in that movie. Before that I have just been stuck working on Disney remakes and phase 4 marvel movies, where nobody cares if it's even good at the end.

[@jeffnicholas6342]

No sense of purpose or craft. Like a cog working in a cog factory..?

[@stormcorrosion176]

You lost me at Barbie bruh

[@ythandlename]

@@stormcorrosion176 It might not be a good movie to me but it must have been special for people who worked on the movie and were Barbie fans.

[@geronimo5537]

9.9 times out of 10 movies tries to one up the previous. Make something new, bigger, shinier, add more! And 9.9 times out of 10 these movies fail or destroy their trilogy. If you have a good idea expand on why its a good idea. Dont replace it with something else. Look at the same thing from another perspective or point in time to better explain why the original was good. This adds value to the original and expands interest to the viewer. Also keep politics or what is perceived as politics out of movies/games. They will instantly destroy all the work as people will choose sides against the production itself.

[@nicholastuttle2445]

The first vs second Pacific Rim films had that clear difference. The first was made by people who really wanted to show giant machines beating on monsters, the second was just a job to make something that could make a profit.

[@rizzo-films]

I remember irony poising being a thing in the 90’s, that’s why The Fellowship of the Ring, with its deeply sincere emotions, felt so fresh to me. I was expecting Sam and Frodo to say some homophobic joke about each other or Gandalf to be some goofy stoner wizard, etc. “The idea that we can no longer communicate sincerely and with vulnerability and have to turn everything into a joke instead” is a perfect way to describe it. I honestly hate that it’s so culturally prevalent. It often feels disappointing, like I was about to feel a deeper connection to characters and strong emotions and then it’s just brushed off, and the path towards catharsis is ended.

[@jonruffolo]

I know this is a hot take, but this was one of my biggest issues with Everything Everywhere All At Once. I really wanted to love this movie, and I certainly loved aspects of it, and it was so close to making me cry so many times but that's just the thing, isn't it? I got close, but the movie just didn't let me get there. Every time it got too emotionally "sincere" they just had to cut to a joke or a gag or something and completely took me out of the moment. Which I know the humor was a huge part of the style of the movie, but I don't know, it really bothered me.

[@DrOktobermensch]

Any emotional weight has to be stripped or made lighter, since sincere emotions will make you a target for whatever offended critic of the day wants to be upset by. If everything is a joke, nothing can be held against you, but then nothing will be remembered about you either since no value has been shown. Movies or more broadly, art with a message and a genuine passion behind it are rare because they have to be made by brave people, who are willing to explore the depths of human experience, and the current crop of writers does not have the life experience needed to undertake something like that, let alone the imagination.

[@johannassburg]

@@jonruffoloI have to respectfully disagree. That movie still has sincerity underneath it’s tongue-in-cheek-ness. I’ve seen it multiple times though. I do get what you mean though. Could it have had a different balance or like pacing between sincerity and sarcasm? Sure, but it’s climax and ending allow sincerity to fully marinate imho.

[@ND-nr6mx]

​@@DrOktobermenschDid you seriously make this all about "people are so easily offended these days"? What a crybaby attitude. Movies have always been like this because corporate suits want to squeeze every possible dollar out of the public. You really think this decade is any worse than the 90s? 70s? 50s? It's the same thing, different year. Grow up and start placing the blame where it belongs.

[@BetterWithBob]

Someone even pointed out as far back as 2014 that one of the reasons Frozen connected with audiences so much is that it was unapologetically sincere in a way that Disney hadn't been since the 90s. One of the first scenes is two little girls playing without any irony or winks to the audience and it's unashamedly sweet. Anna gets a big I Want Song about how she wants to fall in love and, even if the movie plays around with the romance plot, still allows her to want and get a boyfriend by the end. Elsa is also allowed to be vulnerable in a way that a lot of animated heroines hadn't been since arguably Mulan and get a big showstopper that undeniably marks the film as a musical. It had some self-awareness but it felt unafraid to be sweet and wholesome. By contrast, Tangled went out of its way to hide the heart in the marketing - with Rapunzel and Flynn looking all sassy on the posters and presenting it more as a Dreamworks style romp - and being the kind of film that you have to rewatch a lot to realise how great it is. Frozen felt like something we were starving for at the time

[@GTaichou]

This is probably the first cinema video essay that didn't make me feel existential doom. Thank you for approaching your work with such care.

[@Foervraengd]

It is honestly so sad how the extended editions of the LoTR movies no longer comes in that beautiful packaging. I remember unfolding it as a 11 year old and spend hours browsing the concept art gallery on the DVDs.

[@aldunlop4622]

I still have it.

[@MGrey-qb5xz]

yeah seems like a thing a 11 year old would be entertained by

[@originalcosmicgirl]

I was in my twenties and I absolutely loved it. That is why I have long lamented the decline of physical media. Streaming movies and music doesn't give you the extras that you sometimes got with certain projects. It was a real treat to get a book with lyrics or related art. Seeing deleted scenes or hearing how the director created the movie added richness to albums and movies that you already loved. I know we still have access to lyrics, art, and behind the scenes footage, but it's just not the same. Also, there used to be a limited amount of this stuff available, at least with cds and dvds. With the internet, there is often too much information that you have to sift through to get to what you want. That also feels like homework sometimes. I'm certainly not knocking the internet, but I just miss buying a product and getting little extras with it that enhanced the experience.

[@kage6613]

I got a blu-ray with all 3 and it doesn't even have the extended editions! It's still the theatrical cut! Why would they still make a release that doesn't at least have the option to watch the full versions of the films?! I'm still salty.

[@MGrey-qb5xz]

@@kage6613 should have just pirated, wasted money really

[@wearenotdoinggethelp1077]

I feel like passion isn't only missing in filmmaking but in many other parts of our lives too. Not so long ago, I realised that many of my friends (teenagers) felt like having to hide their passions. Idk if that's something new, but it made me frustrated as I am quite passionate about pretty much anything that I like. Singing in the choir isn't considered "cool", being in the school theater isn't "cool" etc (especially for boys), because what are you making it for? Less and less people appreciate things like that, everyone seems to feel a certain numbness towards the act of creation and all the energy put into it. We have consumed so much already at a very young age that nothing feels worth our attention anymore. And if we were to create anything, why should we take an effort? there are so many people out there that could make it better and we've seen things that we will never be able to do, so why even start, why should we try or care, if we don't take advantage out of it? It is frustrating to see that the pure consumption of meaningless stuff that looks cool but feels empty forges us, the new generation. Sometimes I can hardly imagine, what this will lead to. Because it might only be a lack of passion today, but tomorrow it might as well develop into the lack of empathy.

[@not_you_i_dont_even_know_you]

I see what you're talking about and while there is absolutely plenty of that, I do also see s move back toward sincere passion as well. Lots of folks with odd hobbies or fixations and no shame about it. It's easy to get demoralized by the glib, but if you scratch under the surface of all the annoying apps you will find genuinely heartfelt people and encouraging spaces where vulnerability is welcomed. 😊

[@zsoltbartus169]

Actually, this is almost existencial horror.

[@jakethasteak]

yo, lack of passion leading to lack of empathy is a powerful insight. I see South Park as an example of this--it makes fun of people who care, often. Cartman began as the heel, he was the dick friend. But Cartman was seen by the audience eventually as the protaganist, as the realist, the one to be emulated. He's still a selfish dick. Most importantly, South Park rarely takes a stand FOR something. It just laughs, and it's not always clear what the joke is, so any viewer can assume South Park is on the viewer's side. It doesn't make the viewer self-reflect, or imagine a different side to the issue (which is where empathy comes in). You're definitely right that creation feels harder. We thought the internet would allow a really good small-time creator get seen by lots of people, but so much bad content is being created and the algorithms are skewed towards the money-making stuff, or rather, towards the stuff someone with money made to make more money. I saw one of my favorite touring but low-popularity bands last night, and their message is always to try to do the things you love, which will create communities you love. The world needs new art, made from passion. Always will. Don't compare yours to others, either: "someone could make it better" doesn't matter. Make it yours.

[@clydesdale1775]

Bro was absolutely COOKING with this one.

[@cassu6]

Bro whilst I kinda agree with you, I think that's just more of a teen thing. I just think many people aren't THAT passionate about anything. As you've said we just consume consume consume.

[@asafupps]

“It’s like the weekly adventure has become daily homework” THIS is the perfect way to describe it

[@verylongplayername6377]

That is why Dune is so great. Denis Villeneuve wants to make Dune since he was a teenager. He has so many passion for Dune. You can feel it

[@marcuso.530]

As someone who is attempting to write and create an action/ horror book series, I feel like videos and opinions like this are a good way to remind myself of what to avoid in my books and overarching stories.

[@mikayelalikhanyan1587]

What?

[@LostUtopiaFilms]

They’re good but don’t get too caught up in feeling like you have to follow everything you hear in an essay. They after all are just opinions and can be wrong.

[@TheMiist]

@@mikayelalikhanyan1587how could that confuse you?

[@thialhoinj1971]

​@@mikayelalikhanyan1587 I think it's mostly jealous of comic book movies success. Both Logan and taxi driver are great movies. Let's not act like thousands of bad non comic book movies don't exist.

[@noahfletcher3019]

​@@thialhoinj1971we're not talking about logan. Logan was anti entropic. We're talking about doctor strange and the multiverse nonsense.

[@JCMiniPainting]

Man, I'm so glad you touched on irony-poisoning. I've been trying to coin my own term for it whenever I get time to think about it, but this is perfect. It really is an epidemic against genuineness.

[@oldcowbb]

the actual term for what he is talking about is lampshading, irony poisoning is something else

[@RDTRNT]

@@oldcowbb while I agree that irony poisoning is the wrong term here, lampshading is too.

[@YourBlackLocal]

@@oldcowbbIt 100% isn’t lamp-shading. That’s about plot elements and contrivances being addressed so they can be ignored.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

It’s just desperately avoiding sincerity

[@bollemonster]

A group of us were just talking about this today, and why we've started watching old movies and TV shows for the simple joy of storytelling. Brilliant

[@gumball1328]

I love watching old movie. Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton are extremely interesting to watch. Heck, I have discovered that I like old commercials. Especially old animated commercials.

[@tubetorpedo]

Been watching old Studio Ghibli movies, great stories, characters and storytelling on top of great art and animation and music and voice acting. Can also easily recommend new Godzilla movie (Japanese), great sympathetic characters and storytelling, even if one was not friend of monster movies. Movie has several layers and human stories in it are great.

[@JoylessBurrito]

Saddest thing is, I think this whole thing might've happened before, it just wasn't as noticeable without the internet. Like, look at the Godzilla movies. The first one was an allegory, trying to warn us that in unleashing nuclear bombs we had created a monster out of our control, and sincerely begging the world to end the threat of annihilation. It was a powerful and terrifying movie made by the only country that ever felt the trauma of nuclear war, at a time when the people still vividly remembered the terror. Afterwards, the studios kept making sequels that traded that social commentary for "wouldn't it be fun if he teamed up with a giant moth to fight a 3 headed dragon from outer space?", "who would win in a fight between him and King Kong", or "what if there was an evil Godzilla from space, and he was like covered in giant crystals and stuff". Before that, the 1930s universal monster movies kept doing countless sequels, crossovers, and reboots, until people eventually got sick of them altogether.

[@matteomastrodomenico1231]

And that's why I hate the idea that it's recent problem. It's as old as the industry.

[@Shiftarus]

Yea its beyond silly to consider this some sort of cultural shift in how people think.... that kind of crap has been being said since the dawn of time unironically. We are just racing towards late stage capitalism at faster rates, and there is 100x more garbage to point to when looking for bad media

[@leandrocastello309]

Yeah, and with westerns too. Its just the cyclical nature of the industry, but its because of that that is worth noting when a trend has reached its low point. Right now superheroes and quippy one liners would do wonders just by vanishimg from the mainstream.

[@xavierthomas5835]

Truly ecclesiastical revelation that, really, nothing in the world changes, it just moves vessels. Ecclesiastes 1:9 KJV The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

[@matthewharner1744]

Found Doctor Skippers alt account

[@polaroidcaesar]

Honestly got some tears in my eyes towards the end. The poison of irony that is soaking into the culture has been giving this odd floating/unreal quality to everything that, combined with world events, has made life really depressing lately. This is why we need real art more than ever - it lights the way in the dark, it is the canary in the coal mine. When all else fails, we can find ourselves again in beauty. We need great books, great films, great music, great paintings, great art, period, to remind us of, as you said, what was and can be again.

[@cecilcharlesofficial]

'The poison of irony' was a phrase I'd never heard till now and I love it. I'm so tired of snark. It's cowardice. Be vulnerable. Tell the truth. Love pretty things, even if someone scoffs.

[@НатальяПолитова-у9м]

What a beautiful comment.

[@tshuqwud1693]

Thanks for that comment. 1000% agree.

[@captglasspac]

He should have included the counter examples of the spider verse movies to show the modern audiences are craving sincerity. Everything Everywhere is another great example of meta awareness but without cynical irony. Unfortunately I think the pendulum will swing the other way and studios will start cramming in cookie cutter sentimentality in every other scene.

[@Basil_in_the_Wild]

To quote Dostoevsky, "Beauty will save the world"

[@AceArata]

I love the point made about how good movies, and good franchises know that there is also a time for a good END. Its something I think lots of fans neglect. To me, a huge part of what made the Lord of the Rings trilogy so good is that each movie knew when it was time to end, and the ending of the trilogy was literally Frodo telling Sam (and by extension, the audience) that his story is over - that it's OUR TURN to live our lives and write our own stories. To go out there and make those friends that would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with us at our own Black Gate, to go out there and destroy whatever our One Ring might be, and that even if the burden is too much to bear there will always be people at our side willing to guide, willing to protect, willing to lead, and even willing to carry us through till the end. Nowadays, stories and movies seem to never want to end, or simply disregard the quality of an ending.

[@stevendouglas3781]

Endings used to be the point of stories.

[@БеняХандзо]

Well said. Stories are no longer _allowed_ to end because everything is made to be a franchise, a big thing, a multi-project interconnected multiverse etc etc. And everything that wasn't made to be like that is reworked/rebooted. Because corporations are, like any good business, desire to have a product that sells, and sells _consistently_.

[@CommanderLexaa]

Thats why I loved Cyberpunk Edgerunners, the story it wanted to tell needed one season and thats all it was and its fantastic

[@LendriMujina]

This was... a massive wake-up call for me when it came to my own worldbuilding projects. I thought I was safe because I'd been staying away from Marvel and superhero things in general, but the problems are on a cultural level that surrounds us and soaked into me subconsciously, not on a genre level that I can just stay away from.

[@Klaevin]

@thecreator2073 ew

[@Klaevin]

@thecreator2073 a list of directors that includes Greta Gerwig and Ryan Johnson must be a list of the worst directors ever. You forgot Tommy Wiseau

[@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon]

One day you may create an amazing fanfic with 33 readers!

[@Neirean]

If you are selective in the content you absorb, and stop watching (generally) 2010s and onwards blockbuster and theatrical congolmerate streaming service-churned-out garbage, this subconscious issue can be avoided in your own writing. People say it is good to watch bad writing, because we can "see what not to do", but this is fallacy. We should experience GOOD writing to see what *worked* and what *didn't* in something that has proven quality, or released to audiences that are intended to be wholly different to the kind that lusts for franchises, live action remakes, and cashcow adaptations, or... something simply widely regarded as a historic masterpiece.

[@lucaban]

what do you mean with "worldbuilding projects" ? I'm keen!

[@calebzone]

Barbie is an excellent example of everything you're talking about here. An example of how corporations can play their games, and still let visionaries change what we thought we wanted out movies. I'm much more aware of movies released in the last 15 or so years. When I go back and watch films that have stood the test of time, I love noticing that hard to pin down feeling of every element meshing. American Psycho feels so wholly unique, even if it pulls (a lot of) ideas from other great films, the point it's trying to make (and the lack of point, just vibes) all come together for something special. No one wants what we've seen before- we think we do, and we get enjoyment out of going back. But that isn't wanting old elements in new projects, that's wanting to re-live the feelings we felt when we first experienced something we love. Which is super valid. But when it comes to fresh art, art we want to create new memories with, I know deep down I want something I haven't see before. Usually, for a creator to discover what that special idea is within the project they're creating takes a lot of time and a somewhat singular vision. Neither play nice with a corporation designed to have a certain number of projects earn a certain amount of money. And btw, love the the vid, thank you for a balanced take on a concept that gets too much hate. I love SO many marvel movies, and it feels like it takes only a couple bad ones for people to start pointing fingers in misguided directions

[@vercingetorix444]

Among many other flaws such as oversaturation and self awareness, I see the issue with Marvelization as being similar to AI images. They're highly derivative and completely interchangeable. They might occupy your mind for 2 hours on a flight but they will never stick with you.

[@captglasspac]

It's true. When I'm marking movies I've seen in my letterboxd account, I honestly can't remember which marvel movies I've seen and which I haven't because they're so forgettable.

[@KamiKaZantA]

There are two Marvel movies essentially, maybe three. The origin movie and the ensemble movie, and once you've seen one of each you've practically watched them all.

[@patm407]

The idea of corporate passion vs true passion really hit home. Last year I watched Dune. I delayed watching it for a while because I expected what we’ve come to accept as the standard: showy effects, flashy cinematography and very little substance. I was extremely surprised when I watched the movie and found…quality. It captured the feeling that made me fall in love w movies in the early 2000’s and 2010’s, a feeling I’d not felt about a big name movie in almost 10 years. Like the creator of this video, I had often wondered if I’d just grown up too much and couldn’t appreciate things the way I used to anymore, but that wasn’t it. When I watched the behind the scenes for Dune, I understood: Denis Villeneuve *loves* Dune. That book is what made him fall in love with storytelling, and he’s been working up to creating this film pretty much his whole career. Of course, that level of passion combined with his talent and experience leads to that old school Hollywood quality, and hopefully it can turn the tables and create a new trend

[@xPogiify]

Dune's source material is not campy comic book stuff. to (stupidly) think that they'd (for whatever reason) move so far away from the source material that it'd somehow be Marvel-ish is completely on you.

[@signodeinterrogacion8361]

@@xPogiifyWell, that didn't stop I, Robot, did it?

[@patm407]

@@xPogiify hating ass fr 🙄 I think you missed the point in the video. The problem with today’s media doesn’t boil down to being based off comic books. Watch again lol

[@sirsnek6562]

Thinking about how just two weeks ago, my sister, father and I watched the DnD movie in our family room, and I realized that, though it doesn't occur in that movie, undercutting character developments in family targeted movies is fundamentally what makes them family targeted. People that don't like a movie will enjoy when the movie makes fun of itself, and by doing so, it becomes the movie that, for everyone who saw it, could be described as "Ok".

[@aceman0000099]

I think self deprecating humour is stereotypical of millennials

[@megancress1384]

I think i liked the dnd movie so much is cuz even tho it's silly and goofy, the really, truly emotional moments are never undercut. There's a real element of sincerity to it. Just like an irl dnd game where among all the make-believe fighting and jokes you're helping your friend through their family trauma

[@redpilljesus]

@@aceman0000099 zellenials

[@coltweest]

@@megancress1384 Yeah i've never actually played dnd but really liked the movie, the self-awareness never seemed to be misplaced and also made a lot of sense because it felt authentic to something that could be said/done during an irl game. I was so ready for a mediocre marvel like movie but it just felt so well placed idk

[@workoutandread]

@@coltweest It's because it has mediocre marvel tier writing, next to no real world building, barely any serious moments that aren't completely compromised with witty shitty one liners and just degenerate humor.

[@kyleisuncool]

I can’t believe this was a 36 minute advertisement. You proved why what you’re seeing is happening.

[@JonathanWymer]

Okay, only 20 minutes in and I have to pause and say something: I was the exact same age when I watched The Fellowship of the Ring and I absolutely FELL IN LOVE with the behind the scenes documentaries of this movie that it made me want to become a filmmaker. Thank God for this video. This needs to be shared. Incredible essay and I think all of the concepts you bring to the table here need to be in the conversations of every filmmaker right now.

[@taysonm11]

was literally thinking about this the other day with what Peter Jackson did with the Hobbit and how so many aspects of the filmmaking process were highlighted. For sure one of the catalysts to my filmmaking aspirations. I wish more directors would do that.

[@renata8979]

Back in 2010 my parents went away for a weekend and left me some money for groceries, but I decided to treat myself to the very dvd box-set that is featured in this video. I cannot honetsly say I watched the entirety of the Making Of material because it is a lot, but it is just... I think the best way I can describe what I feel about it is a really strong and sincere (white) envy that these people got to have that life expirience because it is so much more than the basic experience of just making a movie.

[@jeffreygordon7194]

As someone who's like 15 years older than this guy, I'm thinking he's just getting older and idealizing the movies of his formative years. I feel the same way about movies from the 90's and have the distinct memory of seeing the first LOTR and thinking it was just people walking and then battling in a loop. He makes a ton of points, and this is a small part of what he's saying.

[@kikijewell2967]

Netflix and streaming stripped out all the director commentary and "making of" minidocumentaries. I deeply miss buying DVDs and getting so much extra content. I'm really brokenhearted over this incredible loss.

[@renata8979]

@@jeffreygordon7194 I don't disagree about idealizing what is dear to us, I think we are all prone to this, however I will insist that LOTR trilogy is unique in the world of cinema and what highlights this is, actually, it's roughness, I will sincerely admit, that in parts it feels almost like an amateur fundraiser production, but with it's heart always in the right place. Another great example of movie vs. product is GDT's "Pacific Rim" against the sequel. You can tell what came from a genuine creative spark and what came from sheer greed. Same with the new Star Wars trilogy - to be fair, I do love The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi because with all it's flaws, they were still Movies, but the third installment felt like one great big Nothing. In it's defense I would say it did not feel cynical, it felt like people who made the previous two movies have burnt out but could not just leave it hanging.

[@doctormoobbc]

You make a great point on the role of data and analytics in driving movie and TV production these days. When seminal films like Lord of the Rings were made, studios took a leap of faith on the creative vision of the filmmakers. Now everything feels so calculated, formulaic and risk-averse. Our viewing preferences are constantly tracked and analyzed in real-time, allowing studios to segment audiences into neat personas and target them precisely. There's no longer a need to passionately pitch an original idea and inspire confidence in the studio - the data makes the decisions. Trends and predictive models dictate what gets made, leading to derivative, check-list style filmmaking designed to maximize profit. In their quest to eliminate risk, studios rely on data to shape stories into inoffensive, easily-consumable products with mass appeal. But this data-driven approach kills creativity. It flattens everything into a bland, homogeneous mush. Even when studios try to emulate the success of maverick directors like Tarantino, the copycat films lack authenticity. What we lose is the spark of imagination, the willingness to push boundaries and take the audience on a journey to somewhere unexpected. Movies become products on an assembly line rather than artistic expressions. Data provides useful insights, but over-reliance on analytics squeezes the life out of creativity. The human touch gets lost. In the pursuit of minimizing risk, we lose the ability to inspire wonder and awe.

[@thomaskilroy3199]

Also, a problem with rote use of statistics, at a deep level, is that it will rarely subvert its own starting categories. If a studio has a misbegotten and flat sense of what the possible or real genres are, it's already too late. The analysis is corrupted from the jump. Every point on their graph, no matter how much of an outlier, can still be read as e.g. 'half action movie, half sci-fi'. So they can just read the success of a unique film as merely the success of a blend of two basic genres, and so emulate it with that overly simple and misleading analysis. They'll never receive statistical reasons to complicated the model of all they're looking for is hit rates inside made up zones. It's like astrology at the box office.

[@concinnus]

TV was always like this, given the Nielsen ratings and the ability to cancel or retool after a season. And even in in movies' creative process, studios/producers have also long interfered, especially at edit time. Analytics just make the interference more mechanical and start sooner. The other newish factor is appealing to a global audience. Not only can you not offend the PRC, but their audience has to get the jokes, too. I think the studios even underestimate the Chinese audience, as they were surprised by Barbie's success.

[@grutarg2938]

This is a good point. A good piece of art is not just entertaining, it is inspiring and persuasive - taking people out of their comfort zone and challenging their previously-held beliefs.

[@chlorox01]

Yes this. Movies are an artform. Art is not calculated and formulaic, its expressive and sincere. Like the video said, production companies only see movies as content and nothing more.

[@TigerLilly4495]

Very well said, I agree. I don't think anybody wants to take real risks in film making any more

[@ruthbennett7563]

“Bathos” is a literary term missing from this lovely, in-depth discussion. It is a more specific form of irony. Marvelization is frought with bathos. It is often the cause of “passion-loss” we find in our pop culture reality. Overly Sarcastic Productions has a very entertaining piece about it. I highly recommend a watch.

[@YouCanCallMeReTro]

Marvelized movies feel to me like movies designed for groups of people to watch casually and talk over the film the whole time. If you watch movies like this alone you find how empty they really are.

[@TheSuperQuail]

You just taught me a new word. And that word is the PERFECT word to describe what Marvel keeps doing.

[@lukerestlessstudios]

Guardians 3 took me right out of it so many times because of this. It’s like most scenes were parodies of themselves and my suspension of disbelief would immediately evaporate.

[@NazriB]

Lies again? Premier League MLS CUP

[@EvertfromNederland]

Funny, never heard of the word "Bathos" but when I read it, the first thing I thought was that it would be a great name for a villain in the next Marvel movie and considering it's meaning, that would be very fitting.

[@ReannaRutledge]

Another thing that I think has helped in the dilution of the souls of movies: technology. In the past, most movies were character-driven conflicts that had to make the audience identify and care about the people on screen. Nowadays, if you have some really cool special effects and epic music, it's possible to make action movies that don't have any depth to them. Of course, I know my own tastes and preferences play into this opinion, but it's a thought that's been floating around in my mind recently that I thought fit with this topic. Excellent video!

[@TrollDragomir]

I too wondered if it's me, if I can no longer get invested in a movie because I became a jaded adult, my imagination dimmed down, or that now I understand too much about the world to enjoy a work of fiction the same way I used to when I was younger. And then I went to watch Puss in Boots The Last Wish in cinema. It really opened my eyes to the problem with modern media that you bring up. Despite the movie being mainly an animated adventure comedy, it had some really serious themes, expertly delivered through... SINCERE storytelling. Jokes were in there and they were hilarious, but when there was time to be serious, there was no irony to undercut it. There were scenes that were visceral, sometimes terrifying, some of them so real they sent shivers down my spine (panic attack scene anyone), but most of all, the most important emotional beats of the story were not afraid to be POIGNANT. One of the most anti-entropic sequels in history, a sequel to a spinoff of a popular already milked down to a raisin franchise no less. I really miss sincere storytelling. I have no idea when and why being serious or having an actual message became passe, but it makes the modern movie experience feel vapid, a pointless waste of time. Sure, there were movies in the past that took pathos and seriousness too far with too little substance behind it, which made them feel pretentious, but this sarcastic self-aware way of storytelling is most definetly no way to fix that problem.

[@antoinettegabrielle3991]

yes, totally agree! I felt like this with Banshees of Inisherin, even though it was a dark comedy it felt so sincere and refreshing compared to a lot of what we see today in cinema.

[@heathertoribio5824]

I literally said the first sentence to my friends last night. I was a huge movie person. When I was making minimum wage as a server, I couldn't wait to buy a DVD of a favorite movie. Going to go see The Dark Knight in theaters was unforgettable. Now, I probably see a movie in a theater once a year. The last one was the Dune movie, which was very good, but we're in a cinema famine right now. Modern movies are incredibly boring.

[@TrollDragomir]

@@heathertoribio5824 Oh yes, I totally agree about Dune. There are gems that happen from time to time, but it's a far cry from how I remember early 2000's for example, with every premiere being super exciting. I was also wondering if it's oversaturation - we have so many things coming out every moment that maybe we've "overeaten" entertainment, but it does feel like quantity over quality lately.

[@thirdcoinedge]

@@J31 I think part of the problem is that there's no lucrative alternative. Many people want more artistic blockbusters, and yet, because of the success of these homogenized movies of hybridized genre, many aren't given the chance to be produced, creating a vicious cycle: people watch what's available, what's available is this, big blockbusters make sizable box office success, studios green light more projects like those, more films like this become more predominant at theaters, and the cycle repeats. There's no incentive to make anything different, save if there was a massive loss in audience interest or a great disruption in the system, a la what happened in the late 1960s and 1970s w/ the New Hollywood movement.

[@thomaskilroy3199]

@thecreator2073 sarcasm and self-awareness can be presented pointedly though. It's sarcasm and self-awareness for its own sake that is the problem, and the 'entropic' version of those concepts.

[@morganqorishchi8181]

The fear of emotional sincerity in cinema that's been Marvelized is frustrating to me because, while people who like it maintain it's "realistic", to me it's realistic to how my friends and I talked when we were teenagers. Now that we're older and we've learned how to have serious conversations and moments without having to make a joke or forcibly divert off of the topic, it's not appealing to us in fiction. People grow up. Marvel has grown down.

[@AlexisHiemis]

Absolutely. It feels like these characters are so immature and can never work out their problems, and that feels so hollow to me.

[@aceman0000099]

I'm realising more and more how films are very much tied to the culture of the writers, and when you start to understand the average Hollywood writer today, films and their tropes make a lot more sense. A millenial dork, raised on cartoons and 80s pop culture, cynical about life etc. that's why there's so many films where the 'quirky harmless dork' ends up 'getting the girl'

[@Trollificusv2]

@@aceman0000099 +1, case solved!

[@MATCHLESS789]

This is a good point. It's like a defensive mechanism - you shield yourself from "criticism" by acting a fool intentionally, pretending it's not serious and that it doesn't really affect you that much. It's as if you've got something serious to discuss but you're afraid to get a good old "ha, that's so gay/lame/etc" so you preemptively set it up as not important.

[@morganqorishchi8181]

@@aceman0000099 The thing is, I know quirky, harmless dorks who can be emotionally sincere and have serious moments. This lack of ability to be genuine or vulnerable is not reflective of all of milenials. It's reflective of the writers' lack of faith in their own ability to write something genuine. And at their age, that's just sad. I'm technically Gen Z. I should not be watching something written by someone older than me and going, "I'm just too old for this."

[@_______-]

Excellent analysis. I remember a few years ago watching the latest Jurrasic Park. "Those old dinosaurs won't keep people interested anymore", complained the park director, "we need bigger, newer, genetically engineered ones". It was so meta - they were actually talking about the cinema audience! So the monsters and special effects got bigger and more impressive, while the stories became derivative and unfulfilling. So it was that the Fast and Furious franchise ended up turning into a comedy in space, Die Hard became a cliche-ridden over-the-top action fest and Superman ended up destroying entire cities in a futile attempt to keep us all interested. I'm all for special effects if they're justified by the storyline. But you just know when they've written the story around the effects, and it's deeply unsatisfying.

[@YouWillBeHappyOrElse]

I disagree with you somewhat. Man of Steel having the catastrophic damage to Metropolis makes sense from a narrative perspective, because there is no reason why the Kryptonians would pull their punches. They're going to level all this and kill everyone anyway; why waste time and energy being surgical about it?

[@Albanus35]

I just disagree to relate that with "entropy", it doesn't make sense and it feels like just want to come up with a new cool technical term...

[@artemv3160]

> Superman ended up destroying entire cities in a futile attempt to keep us all interested. That hit me hard. If you think about it from viewer-film perspective - wow, thats a lot to think about. Thanks for the random insight.

[@gothicanimeangel96]

The fast & furious movies have been like that since F4, and it's a beautiful and consistent escalation if you ask me.

[@byucatch22]

@@YouWillBeHappyOrElse yeah...but the final act/battle sequence was soooo overlong. I actually love MoS and BvS and JLSC, but when I watch MoS I skip 4/5ths of the Batman/Zodd punching scenes.

[@LucasBadur]

This entire video was a breath of fresh air to me. Your voice is soothing, the ideas are presented concisely and clearly, and... it just clicks. Thanks for your effort!

[@iamasquidinspace]

It used to be that in big studio movies, you could find scenes that just felt so off, they were reeking of a studio note. Now you have entire movies that feel like just one bis studio note, start to finish.

[@naverich4603]

I have this thing when I rewatch LotR movies every two years, extended versions of course. And before every rewatch I'm thinking to myself: "Nah, I have seen it so many times, there's no way I will be still entertained or that I will cry just like I did the last time." And every single time I cry even more and am invested even more. After every single rewatch I love those movies more and more. My last rewatch was just two weeks ago and I haven't stopped thinking about those movies since. It's a cinematic masterpiece that I doubt anyone will ever top. The love for the books is felt in every single scene it's just incredible. I'm a wannabe filmmaker, fresh out of film school and I had to watch many movies from all over the world and from all time periods including silent films and I love them and appreciate them all, realizing how fucking difficult it is to make a GOOD movie, let alone a great one. But every time I come back to LotR I say to myself: "dude, if I could ever film something at least half as good as LotR movies I would be happy with my career."

[@elfeiin]

That's such a relatable experience. I think you could do something great.

[@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339]

I've rewatched the series just two weeks ago as well! :D It had been some time since the last time and I still was able to accurately remember dialogue or insignificant information about certain scenes (like behind-the-scenes trivia or certain colours and shapes of objects) and I knew with almost 100% accuracy what scene would follow the current one. And yet, I still laughed, I still got teary eyes, I was still glued to the screen and I (as always) got the overwhelming need to read the books again and listen to the soundtrack for three days in a row. But I also re-remembered certain quibs or noticed things in the background of scenes that I somehow never noticed before (and I was quick to point them out to my poor fiancé who had to listen to me rave about the movies...) and my love for the series grew even more. I don't think any movie or series in the last 10-15 years invoked this huge of a reaction in me (even if some came really close) and for me at least, the trend rather goes down than upwards...

[@lupolinar]

Maybe not the extended editions (it does not enhance the movies), but these movies are great and will always be great.

[@samrodgers1077]

Me and my bf do it every Christmas. It's beautiful

[@snakuvudu]

It's been a few years for me. I think it's time to go back to Middle Earth!

[@wirilome]

I love that you mentioned the new blue rays not including the appendices. I was so devastated when i opened those discs and not only did they not have appendices, but also none of the many brilliant commentary tracks. It felt like another step down the path of reducing works of love and art to mere content. Very relieved I still have my original extended edition copies

[@nataliebland3078]

I hadn’t realized before, but this is precisely why I’ve been turning more towards things like D&D actual plays, whether filmed or audio, because so many of them feel more emotionally genuine than the hollow shells of so many films and dramas

[@Nr4747]

Some of the points you made reminded me why I love the new Dune so much: It actually tells a serious story while taking itself seriously - while also being a blockbuster. That used to be the norm 15 years ago, but is pretty abnormal nowadays. When characters in that movie (and most likely the sequel aswell) show their feelings, they don't comment on how "cringe" that is and when they're in mortal danger, they don't react to that with a "they fly now ?"-quip.

[@thomaskilroy3199]

It occurs to me that ironic detachment is the ultimate low-stakes bet. Low-commitment, low reward, but stable. Depressed people do it, depressed cultures do it, now our uninspired studios do it. First bad content creators sought to be merely relatable, then the audience grew detached and non-committal in the face of a content surplus, now the level at which the bad content creator seeks to 'relate' is TO that lack of commitment. They don't care because we don't care.

[@gozearbus1584]

Dune is by far the worse blockbuster movie I've seen in recent years. You just have a shit culture and taste

[@PimpDaddyStyles]

@@thomaskilroy3199 depressed cultures? you dont have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to mental illnesses.

[@Thanatos2996]

Unending stories are, in my view, one of the main problems plaguing modern cinema, and I’m glad you brought it up. Things like the self awareness and irony are just a trend, and they will come and go like any other trend. Having to leave everything open to become a franchise, on the other hand, precludes good, satisfying storytelling. The story can be a self-contained movie, standalone or as part of a larger body of stories, a trilogy, a 10 year project like the MCU, or a serial behemoth like One Piece, but if there isn’t an end point, the story will eventually meander until it dies. Stories that are written with no ending in mind ring hollow; they say nothing and go nowhere, so they have no value beyond the sheer spectacle, and we’ve long since passed the point of diminishing returns on increasingly expensive spectacle.

[@Endemoniada]

The latest Fast and Furious movie was the worst example of this recently, the way it didn't even *pretend* to truly have an ending, just shamelessly going into "continued in a couple of years in the next film" and then cut to credits was absurd. Post-Infinity Marvel is the same, each movie feels too much like just the prologue in the grander sage, whereas previously at least each film had a real, meaningful arc on its own.

[@poeticsilence047]

Fast and Furious movies should have stopped after Tokyo drift. Now they are just ridiculous and just a cash grab.

[@shivershins3730]

Banger of a video essay. I think it’s easy to be angry with where cinema is right now, but instead of reacting with outrage, you level a poignant, thorough analysis/soulsearch. This one warrants a rewatch. Great job

[@TheYeti6000]

Speaking of irony and the lack of sincerity in modern film: I recently saw Boys in the Boat. A good book that was a fine, serviceable movie, nothing amazing. However, what I appreciated about it was the earnestness and being unashamed of being sincere or even cheesy. It felt weirdly refreshing and optimistic and it’s kind of strange that it feels weird. It really shouldn’t.

[@nathandavis435]

I feel, at least in terms of the Dungeons and Dragons movie, part of the deal is that it is a visualization of what the players of a given D&D game could be seeing, the theater that takes place in the mind and on the tabletop. Thus, it wouldn't be surprising if one of the players with a love for Marvel movies decides to engage in a little cheesy refrencing. After all, no D&D campaign is serious forever. Jokes and references creep in all the time as players contextualize what the DM is helping them experience.

[@milosradmilac8911]

Oh god yes, that's why I love that movie. It's a D&D campaign as a movie! Full of absurdist cameos, accidental funny bits, very pop culture storytelling, etc etc. The best part of the movie has to be the bridge scene. It's soooooooo Marvel humour, BUT I DARE anyone who has played at least one D&D game, to find me a campaign where something like that hasn't happened. I had guy lick a door knob for half an hour, and nibble on it to make sure it isn't booby trapped, all while staying in character, as the rest of us just kept looking at him, and DM banged his head against the table. There was no booby trap, it was a door we just had to go through it. It was my first game ever. But yeah... D&D movie represents the experience perfectly.

[@chrisbarnett5303]

Also it took itself seriously enough anf its humor in general didn't detract form the tone. It knew when to cut out the jokes in the most serious moments. I actually teared up at the big emotional moment at the end because I was invested in the characters and their journey, which I wouldn't if it didn't balance the jokes with the serious moments

[@charleshartley9597]

I agree with each of you, as a long time player, I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. I think those elements you reference are part of what makes it so great. It feels lived in, as if it was part of someone's campaign experience. And that, I think, is difficult to capture, but they did it in the film. Cheers!

[@danmorgan3685]

Yeah, the D&D movie was very much inspired by the actual playing of roleplaying games. The outside references, the failing forward, the constant self deprecating jokes are all part of the tabletop playing experience. Count the number of times the party of adventurers fail. That doesn't happen often (or at all) in most mainstream movies.

[@PARADOXsquared]

Yeah the D&D movie reminded me so much of what it feels like to play, or to listen to a favorite D&D podcast

[@localneo-graphic4647]

RoP's biggest problem was probably the fact that, despite all of the access to so much actual canon material, they decided to make one that was semi-canon at best, and fanfiction at it's worst. Like the market is absolutely PRIME for a Children of Hurin adaptation, and they decided to make Rings of Power. That blows my mind.

[@AuxiliaryHillman]

Seeing how they wrote RoP I don't want them to touch Children of Hurin at all, or any of Tolkien's work for that matter

[@maxb2244]

I thought they didn't have access to a bunch of stuff? I haven't seen it but I hears they weren't even allowed to say "Hobbit."

[@chrisblack1658]

@@maxb2244 Yea, what blew my mind was that they attempted to make a show with so little material (only the LotR Appendices, not even the Unfinished Tales or parts of the HoME. But a good Children of Hurin adaptation would be dope!

[@CJBroonie]

Well knowing that Prime only had rights to the appendices why criticize the creativity that filled gaps? In fact, I found the series worked hard to stay true to the later storyline. I liked it. And remember, Peter Jackson’s LOTR also revised much of the books in the movies. Tolkien isn’t easy to condense.

[@MasterBlaster220]

Children of Hurin is afaik partitically part of the Simarillon, which Amazon has not the rights for.

[@tmeon2140]

It feels so genuine to understand why "new" creations aren't that enjoyable anymore. Thks Tom, I look further for my stories to be different and unique

[@mikayelalikhanyan1587]

see man if you watch any creations you will find things being made better and easier than before, i say this bcs i know this isn't your own opinion its just you repeating his

[@mobiusbelts3607]

I don't think you know what genuine means.

[@TheOmniscientAtheist]

This is a phenomenon that is happening across all industries, not just cinema. We are at the end of a game of monopoly and in every industry there are only 1 or 2 players who just buy everyone else and then roll out their standardised method of operating, because it can give shareholders predictable profits. Cars, supermarkets, music, gyms, restaurants, video games... The thing is, you can still find good examples of all of these things, they are just not in the mainstream anymore.

[@BlackFish1989]

This is also why I was a bit relieved when Dune came out. No memes, the soundtrack was created for the film by an amazing composer, it all around seemed to me like a project created with passion.

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

Dune was great, but they suffer from the same franchise problems too. It's on the third remake/reboot, I believe. The only time a remake is viable is when the original vision couldn't be properly made with what they had to work with, and they stick to the story religiously. Hollywood is likely going to take the success of Dune and bastardize it just like every other successful story has been in the past two decades.

[@RegularCupOfJoe]

The behind-the-scenes work on LOTR taught me the importance of pouring my passion into my work through my talents. Having now had a career with opportunities to maximize that passion, I can confirm that surrounding yourself with people as passionate as yourself results in a beautiful, one-of-a-kind work to which nothing else holds a candle. Such work creates a sense of belonging, purpose, and, best of all, peace.

[@EveryDooDarnDiddlyDay]

I think in terms of "The Whedonization" of TV and movies: Everyone is constantly quipping in an inappropriate yet oh so clever manner.

[@herecomesthescience]

Whedon took what comics and 80s action movies were already doing and brought it to TV.

[@EveryDooDarnDiddlyDay]

@@herecomesthescience Right , and now EVERYBODY does it. It's sickening and undermines the characters and the tension.

[@alicedruitt4805]

The issue with that is that even Whedon knew when to draw back (or used to know when to draw back) and let the drama fucking gutpunch you. Like - Buffy and Angel are both full of his quippiness, but they're also full of devastating moments that let themselves sit there; no-one interrupts the sequence from Jenny Calender's death on with a quip, when Angel tries to murder Wesley in his hospital bed no-one 'well that just happened's it. The problem is no-one - including latter day Whedon himself - has managed to hit the balance right, or nail down the setting and tone for both the drama and quips to work.

[@lucillebalinska5868]

Haha my mind leapt to Buffy while watching this, as much as Buffy is great in its own right. I remember trying to play fantasy themed pretend games with a childhood friend who was a massive Buffy fan. I was a massive LotR fan and would play my characters very straight with lots of epic gravitas and she would play hers with wisecracks and sarcasm and it drove me nuts 😅

[@liquidmantle]

When he did it for Buffy in 1997, it was unique and had its own original voice. Now, it's overdone and cringe.

[@rafagrzyb1992]

That's my first serious (long) video i decided to see in english. Your voice and speaking is so clear. Very good to hearing.

[@kiranraavi4240]

I think one thing that has affected the entertainment industry is the change in consumer behaviour. It's reflected also in social media and short form content, to where any content now focuses more on reach and "consumability" rather than quality in narrative or artistry. In fact, I think social media and the "accessibility" (I put in quotes because it's not really accesssible in any sense, in fact it is just a bundle of confirmation bias) it provides is a big reason for the change in consumer behaviours. It's like content is no longer something for us to seek out due to our passions and interests, but rather something we need hand-delivered to us to keep us alive, almost like some sort of IV drip.

[@Drekromancer]

That's an excellent analogy. I feel like so many of the people around me feel this way much of the time - sometimes including myself. Something to watch out for, I suppose.

[@hian]

I sometimes wonder if the oversaturation irony and loss of genuineness in storytelling is a byproduct of how judgemental our (western) cultures have become in conjunction with the way works and authors are more forced into exposure of those judgements. The inescapable and incessant flow of characterizations like "cringe", "pretentious" and the like means that almost any artist with an aspiration to make their work public in today's world constantly has to worry about being castigated as such without littering their work with reflexive appeals to self-awareness and some kind of apologia to assure the audience they aren't in fact guilty of having unconsciously created something believing it "better than it really is." It's like everyone's creating works in a way equivalent to the person sending a text to their crush going "I like you" only to send a second text minutes later, "haha, of course, I was just joking" because they're afraid of being rejected - a fear itself a product of a culture of mean-spirited rejections.

[@juliannehannes11]

🎯

[@BoberFett]

There's definitely a cultural element at play. Art mimics life mimics art.

[@alicequinn505]

They're quite self-conscious

[@7armedman]

It’s bad now, but you needed to suffer through the movies of the 90s. You couldn’t get a movie that wasn’t being constantly ironic. Look at independence Day, the entire world is destroyed and you’ve got some old Jew making terrible dad jokes. Shit man no one was even making jokes right after 911 much less than the end of the world.

[@OEMishGarage]

@@7armedman Yup, Shawshank Redemption is certainly known for its constant irony.

[@Coffin_]

You’ve put into words what I have felt about movies for a long time. Nothing leaves me “wowed” and inadvertently trapped in thought for days about what I just watched. Marvelization means that studios won’t take a risk on something like Schindler’s List, The Pianist, Good Will Hunting, The Godfather, Pulp Fiction, Rain Man, Fight Club, Shawshank, etc… whatever your personal all time favorites are, you probably won’t be adding a lot to your list in the years to come.

[@lectric]

Kept saying the same for quite a while now. Nothing but remakes, demakes, sequels, prequels and spinoffs. Its all so tiresome.

[@Brooke-kk8vb]

I think some of these issues stem from a deeper problem in our society, where we have become so disconnected that we cannot face discomfort. We're afraid of vulnerability, as mentioned in the video. We would rather chase imaginary, but attainable, achievements in a video game than chase a crazy dream that we would have to work and strive to accomplish. We don't want to be bored, so anytime our minds might be unoccupied, we plug in to the virtual for instant stimulation. We're uncomfortable with even our own thoughts, content to keep voraciously consuming, stuck in an endless cycle of mindless, easy, entertainment. And yet...if we never try and fail, if we're never bored, if we never invest much in our relationships, then life is hollow. Failure helps us learn to do better. Boredom fosters creativity. And relationships strengthen and support us. Without experiencing the hard things in life, we may experience none of the genuinely good and wonderful things. Perhaps that's at least partly why our young people are so riddled with crippling anxiety. They're part of an experiment that is causing them to miss out on the best parts of life.

[@jamesbrealg]

One of the problems is the division amongst the audience of those that recognise and sense all of the things which you describe, and those that don't care and actively want more of the type of media we are seeing at the moment

[@raydhen8840]

Sadly, it becomes rising problem as new generation exposed only with media that do bare minimum and surface-level story tends to gravitate toward the latter. Unless if their parent care enough to introduce them with older classic.

[@thomaskilroy3199]

I think it comes down to those who have a passion for stories and those who ultimately don't care. Some people, by whatever mental block, don't seem to take ideas or expressions that seriously. Makes for an awful literal-mindedness if it goes on too long in my observation; people deprive themselves of escape from mundanity.

[@jamesbrealg]

@raydhen8840 I agree. I think good media is out there, its just harder to find, it's outside of the mainstream. But something makes me think this isn't a modern problem, mainstream entertainment for the masses has always been somewhat of a lesser quality than what humanity is actually capable of

[@logicaldude3611]

You're storytelling entropy idea was fantastic. It's spot on. The longer some of these stories go on, the more chaotic and disordered they become. It's a shame that we live in a day and age where true, new creativity barely exists. Everything is an echo chamber of an echo chamber of an echo chamber. Go on long enough and it's just noise and unrecognizable compared to the original.

[@Danishmastery]

Spot on. And it’s become super self-referential.

[@ynemey1243]

You have to discard the mainstream and look at smaller creators. There is more talent now than ever, but it's up to the individual to seek it out.

[@gumball1328]

Look at indie films. Creative people are still here, you just have to dig for to find them. Though, that is changing. Indie films, shows and animation is gaining a lot of attention with all the crap Hollywood is making.

[@dtz1000]

I can't believe he didn't mention wokeism. Everything woke turns to, you know what. I won't be subscribing to someone who is so pretentious that he refuses to mention wokeism when talking about why modern films are failing.

[@geministrial950]

@@dtz1000 Ooooh take your pills, grandpa. Youre making up imaginary enemies again

[@dieseljr7946]

I agree massively about your points here. I think this Superhero and Franchise-fatigue that many people are feeling is the reason why more original films like Barbie and Oppenheimer were such a big deal.

[@jeffersonhassan4558]

Both were original films not original stories though

[@SurvivingComics]

What I don't understand is, why does EVERY marvel character need to make jokes? In the actual comics, Hulk isn't walking around cracking stupid jokes and honestly, neither is Cap. In the movies, all of the characters become homogenized. No personality. Sure, they've got different outfits and powers but their personalites are all the same.

[@SampritiBarua]

Every character makes jokes, the problem is that the MCU makes the characters a joke.

[@critiqueofthegothgf]

the lack of discipline or inability by filmmakers/studios to simply stick to a core identity and idea instead of trying to be all encompassing and fit into every genre, niche, and cater to every audience possible, rendering the film meaningless and devoid of susbstance, is contributing to the phenomen or is the phenonmen, itself, as you implied. great analysis

[@axelbruv]

They don't cater to every audience, though. Marvel alienates superhero fans by stripping away the essence of what makes people love superhero films. Amazon did the same to fantasy. They lose their core audience by chasing after a group of people who neither enjoy superhero films nor fantasy films, so they end up sacrificing money in the name of The Message.

[@SodiumWage]

Quick note about the D&D film. The POV of that film is that of a typical dungeon master (DM) trying to move their idiot players along through a story the DM is mostly making up as they go along. The D&D film is emulating the actual experience of playing D&D and it makes sense that it would include nods to pop culture, especially since D&D is a major part of pop culture itself.

[@Blisterdude123]

I did not expect to enjoy that film as much as I did. One of my biggest pleasant surprises this year.

[@wirilome]

Yes, I loved how much that movie felt so comfortable, like the best campaigns I've had, and exciting for finally being able to see it play out like a movie. That was a movie made with a lot of love and understanding, and for that, those mini references landed as all the more real for me

[@johnnye87]

I feel like it just knew when to be quippy and when to let a scene play out dramatically (better than most D&D parties, certainly...) It's not THAT difficult to walk that line, there have been action-comedies pulling it off for decades. It really does feel like the movies that fail at it are just deadly afraid to be "cheesy" or "cringe" and end up avoiding sincerity entirely. ...But they also don't commit to *actually being comedies*, so you just end up with a drama that undercuts itself and a bunch of jokes that don't tie together.

[@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon]

Cringe.

[@initial_C]

This Call of Cthulhu player is diagnosing you with Acute Pathological Cope.

[@OhMyPoBoy]

Thank you for discussing the early MCU and the infinity saga. It was a very exciting time for me as a teen. End game was the last marvel piece of media i even payed attention to. It felt concluded and i was satisfied.

[@shaansingh6048]

Yep. Since then i've watched Shang-Chi, No Way Home, and Loki but i don't really care about the overarching story anymore...

[@War624]

@@shaansingh6048 Guardians 3? It was amazing, and self contained.

[@cassu6]

Definitely agree with this. Couldn't give a shit about Marvel after Endgame. Have watched some of the newer ones cus the old man likes them, but they're just pretty basic.

[@xBINARYGODx]

cool, but that stuff and its popularity is why we are where we are now - so...

[@shaansingh6048]

@@xBINARYGODx well it’s not their fault everyone is trying to spoof their popularity

[@magnuslunzer2335]

Very good analysis! Maybe there‘s smth to add: That every character feels like an average normal guy. These movies are baiting us with „Hey, he is normal, like you! Please feel connected“. Which is actually just lazy writing because it‘s definitely possible to connect with no every day normal guy characters like Paul Atreidis, Princess Mononoke, Neo, etc. But money is also gained when you don‘t put effort into creating an interesting character.

[@Lady-in-Red]

You've put into words what I've been feeling for a while now. Keeping up with Marvel was definitely starting to feel like homework. Seeing shots of the making of The Lord of the Rings was so beautiful. It almost made me cry thinking about how much work and passion went into the making of these movies. They're still so good.

[@aldunlop4622]

I have the DVDs and I end up crying watching the extras, all the care, craft and dedication is so inspiring.

[@americker]

Absolutely hit the nail on the head. I've had exactly that same thought over recent years - 'is it me?' Have I simply lost the joy I used to find in a big, well crafted, well told blockbuster? This is why Dune was such a joyous cinematic experience for me - the passion and craft absolutely shines through.

[@manictiger]

Puss In Boots, RRR and Oppenheimer were pretty nice.

[@lukeluke333lukeluke]

Loved Dune and the The Northman. There's a few other movies that are great and made with passion.

[@olegnaumov225]

RRR is just a racist joke@@manictiger

[@manictiger]

@@olegnaumov225 If you say so.

[@8eight104]

The Fellowship had so many "cringe" moments in it, and that is why it was so amazing. Emotional sincerity needs a comeback.

[@Novusod]

The 2nd breakfast skit is part of what makes Fellowship so endearing.

[@SepticFuddy]

@@Novusod Yeah, but it also had a very clear purpose in the storytelling. It established the fish-out-of-water nature of the hobbits, who they were at the start of the journey, what they were sacrificing to undertake it, how little they understood their own sacrifice at that point, and how much they'd change by the end of their arcs. The comic relief itself shows the determination of light to overcome darkness in Tolkien's world, more than just giving the audience a break from the tension. It shows people deliberately choosing to embrace and create goodness in the face of great evil, which is of course the main power of the story. Memorable quips tend to be well-implemented ones, as opposed to the eye-rolling in modern cinema. Rewatching Jurassic Park a few months back for the first time in many years, it was incredible to me how just about every shot and every line were so deeply imprinted onto my mind after all that time. Such a lost art.

[@wezzuh2482]

You should also keep in mind, that Tolkien wrote the books before the age of Post-Modern ironic detachment, and I am fairly sure that if he had lived to experience it he would have detested it with a burning passion.

[@xanidydexidy]

ngl that movie was lame af

[@camannwordsmith]

​@@xanidydexidyit's ok to be wrong and have bad taste. It's not for everyone!

[@partlytwin6735]

I was literally trying to explain to someone how I feel like movies and shows recently have been doing this. I couldn’t come up with a word for it but you sum it up perfectly. No emotion, just content.

[@jbolanowski1]

Meta-reference to nowhere is my fav part. Especially the ending when you talk about emotional detachment. I think the first to realise how much of a problem it is was David Foster Wallace with his "Problem with Irony" written sooooo may years ago. It's not a new thing it started some time ago, but this cynicism in storrytelling picked recently. Often when whatching moderm movies I end up with the feeling of sadness. There's no heart, hope and love there. There is only cynical, ironic detachment, the kind of the feeling that often grasp You when You are edgy rebelious 17years old.

[@Erilis000]

well said. i feel that too. it's amazing the difference when you go back and watch a classic movie.

[@aceman0000099]

I think it's the shift to millennial post-modernist philosophy and irony, since millennials have come of age a decade ago and are now "in their prime" so they control the writing of these films and shit. Thank god that zoomers have already subverted the millennial irony into post-irony and meta-irony or even the rejection of irony in some cases. In any case, we will see a big difference in the problems of cinema from today to 2033 or 2038. For sure

[@majeedmamah7457]

​@@aceman0000099i dont you know what post modern philosophy is.

[@aceman0000099]

@@majeedmamah7457 from my understanding post modernism is a less optimistic, more cynical and sarcastic take on the blissful modernism of the early 40s and 50s where you got punk rock and dystopian futures and existential humour

[@Trollificusv2]

@@aceman0000099 Hope you're right. The...'disconnectedness' of the current generation of writers amazes me. No such thing as love?? No such things as commitment, or loyalty, or sacrifice?? Apparently not anymore.

[@darrenpellichino2923]

The actor choices for the avengers was by far one of the most important aspects of their success. The moments when all those characters were together made sense in a perfect group sorta way. The personalities and powers were matched and balanced against one another to make great storytelling moments. I can't imagine there will be any way to repeat it and trying will always feel like Shrek 4 =)

[@Jenniferrr2014]

Most of the Avengers-cast movies are extremely entertaining with the emotional drama you get between the characters, alongside with the actors. It's really entertaining to watch and rewatch the movies because they're fun and interesting like that. It's hard to replicate that 1:1, especially when your characters aren't anything like the Avengers. You just have to be a bit more creative and less 'pandering to general audiences'.

[@Interestingenough4]

Not only that, but what the MCU did was unprecedented. It basically made an 11-year TV show, with the movies acting as "episodes" and then with multiple "seasons" with each Phase. The problem, however, is that the "show" ran its course after three great "seasons" and an epic should-be finale, but the showrunners kept milking that giant cash cow and eventually started running out of good ideas. For every decent-to-great post Infinity Saga "episode," there are four or five others that are mediocre or downright terrible. At least the "filler episodes" of the Infinity Saga served a purpose and typically had a huge payoff.

[@SirBlackReeds]

Plus, Avengers was made at a time when Joss Whedon could sell an entire movie off of banter alone.

[@ikemoritz1425]

I'm surprised that I didn't see Andor in your "Breaking the Cycle" segment! I thought it did a wonderful job avoiding Marvelization by saying "Here's an idea the original work played with (the politics of resistance and fascism), we're going to drill down specifically into that", taking the existing iconography, lore, and expectations of the setting; but using them to tell a careful, deliberate, and self-contained, thematically coherent story. It also pulls off the absurd trick where it *retroactively* elevate the grey soup of Rogue One into feeling like it has creative intentionality. It manages to feel like Rogue One was made with Andor in mind, with interesting parallels in Jyn and Andor's journeys, in a way that I never felt like George Lucas successfully accomplished with the prequels and original trilogy despite all of his effort.

[@RorikH]

Season One of Mando also did a great job because rather than just copying from Star Wars, it drew inspiration from the samurai movies and westerns that inspired Star Wars to begin with, allowing it to be it' own story, but fit in very well with the existing universe.

[@adamplentl5588]

​@@RorikHMando is hacky garb.

[@RorikH]

​@@adamplentl5588 I'll fully grant that "Cold and distant man protects small child while slowly warming up to them over the course of their journey" is pretty basic, but since the last major Star Wars thing before it came out was all, "I, the Emperor, have returned due to name recognition! Behold, the Billion Death Stars I just pulled out of my ass, which are, by the power of multiplication, a billion times as interesting as the previous death stars! Also, the main character was my clone granddaughter, Chewbacca is dead but not really, C-3PO is dead but not really, and I'm super powerful because these two are soul mates despite their bond explicitly being a trick by Snoke!" So having something that just kind of went back to basics was refreshing.

[@adamplentl5588]

@@RorikH putting a phenomenal actor like Pedro Pascal opposite a cutesy 8 inch tall marketing gimmick should be against the Geneva Convention.

[@RorikH]

​@@adamplentl5588 Counterpoint: The marketing gimmick drew viewers, who were then impressed by Pedro Pascal, furthering his career and helping more people realize how great an actor he is.