The Moral Dilemma That Broke Frieren

[@bingus5488]

Came here from twitter to dunk on something and found a reasonable argument. Huh. GG

[@TheRealEdo]

Because it's a reasonable argument.

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

it's almost like everyone who hates this video saw less than 5 minutes of it, and is mad at a complete strawman & isn't interested in the critique/analysis posed by Lextorias

[@yikes6758]

@@TenseDragon t. didnt watch the video

[@dopplerganger1433]

@@RoyThomas-c7h all of the top comments are making points that are directly addressed in the video lol

[@lapelys7775]

Just shows that most frieren fans don't actually grasp the criticism and repeat the same talking points. Frieren fans are about as toxic and obnoxious as rezero fans. They act in the exact way too; throwing out the slurs, bad faith arguments, and the like.

[@tuvarkz]

There is no moral dilemma. Demons are a competitive species that actively preys on humans, dwarves and elves, and uses empathy as a prime tool to gain an advantage over humans. Frieren's action of classifying them as beasts is the emerging evolutionary solution. Sure, they might have intelligence, morals, and empathy for each other, but acknowledging it only opens humans, elves, and dwarves to further danger. Therefore, it is more than moral for humans, dwarves and elves to treat the demons like mindless beasts because it is in their own highest interest (survival) to do so.

[@Lextorias]

as I bring up in the video, and show several quotes to illustrate, fighting demons (or orcs, for that matter) that are actively hostile and dangerous is largely justified. killing those who want to destroy you and show no signs of stopping is fine to do in the heat of conflict. but the story makes it explicitly clear that its characters want to eliminate *ALL* demons, even those who are not currently a threat, which is a different moral question entirely. it has nothing to do with survival at that point

[@saadamehdi2848]

​@@imperatordrakon6488 it is still inherently inconsistent with the theme of the story: They: - do not need to eat us to survive - are very emotional, collected and analytical - they care for their own to some degrees. they're being hunted like dogs by the protags and other humans and they lost the war. There is no reason they wouldn't understand that survival commands not mindless slaughtering people when it's NOT in their interest whatsoever, even though all "competitive species" with a shred of intelligence can at least make compromises... The manga's take is simply idiotic, deal with it.

[@pyrrian-m3y]

​@@LextoriasI have not really seen all non-demon characters wanting to kill all demons. Mostly it is Frieren and Flamme with a personal vendetta against demons. There are plenty of humans who clearly are willing to co-exist. Even though it did not seem to work out in the cases shown. It is not that demons are inherently evil or amoral, it is that Frieren just really hates them. I think most of the things said by lugner should not be taken extremely literally, as it was definitely a lot of exposition for the audience. Similar to how the conversations between Himmel and Frieren in the first episode don't really make sense in context of 2 people who have known each other for a decade. It is just needed for us to understand their relation and what has happened. The point of it was just to show that demons are fine with using words as weapons in ways that would be considered immoral if done by humans.

[@Lextorias]

@@pyrrian-m3y but that conversation still exists within the story. just because we assume its intended as audience exposition doesn't mean it doesn't exist. if the author wanted that information to be given solely to the audience, and not exist in-universe, they could simply have a narrator or some other metatextual element reveal it. but no, we see a demon ask another what a father is

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

Ubel literally does the same thing as the demons, she's treated with the same level of respect as anyone else. If an elf was in the same position as Aura, it'd play out the same. The show fundamentally contradicts itself. Nothing is impossible (except co-existence with demons). Also weird claim about the elves, we know very little about them and have only encountered 3 so far in the main story, to assume they have empathy is weird when they are just as emotionally disconnected from human social relations as much as the demons.

[@firebornliger]

It isn't really that complicated or even a dilemma. The claim that they mimic likely just makes it easier to ignore them. Because they do indeed use the empathy of their prey to strike. Therefore, even if their emotions are legitimate, paying them heed will only lead to destruction. Curiosity also doesn't imply a positive. A predator expressing curiosity about its prey is most likely looking for a better understanding of how to hunt.

[@Lextorias]

no, it is. none of this is even addressing the point, but you're right that them being mimics makes it easy for people to dismiss/ignore the contradictions if their emotions are legitimate, they can't be deception. we are told they are deception. that is a contradiction. if they're expressing curiosity about hunting, the other demons woudn't dismiss all of their questions with "who knows?" because that would still be a contradiction. it's not *just* pure curiosity. it's an explicit desire for more knowledge

[@firebornliger]

@@Lextorias The emotions they feel and the emotions they express can be two different things. The dismissal of "who knows" can be addressed by simply a difference in curiosity. Of course, I'm also biased in this argument, because attempting to humanize the human eating monsters is also where Promised Neverland stumbled and fell in the final act.

[@Lextorias]

@@firebornliger we literally see into a demon's memories, and that they express and understand emotions in a scenario where they do not think anyone is observing them. demons show many emotions when nobody is around, as I point out. so, again, their internal and external emotions are the same. calling this "deception" is incorrect when there's fundamentally no difference between the "deceptive" emotion and the real emotions they're feeling "who knows" means they specifically do NOT know the answer. if the question was about the meaning of the word to deceive, they DO know that. they just used the word to deceive. saying "who knows" is still a contradiction if this is the case. them having less curiosity is obviously why they dismiss it, I never say otherwise. but the question being asked is the point and dehumanizing the sentient species is where Frieren is currently stumbling throughout the entire story, so I understand your frustration

[@logikx1325]

@@Lextorias The demons are not sapient. They may be sentient, I'll give you that, but they are an existential threat to every other intelligent species on the planet. Monsters in Frierens world all, without exception, evaporate into mana when they die....dragons, einsam, chaos flowers and yes demons. I feel bad for your generation, you don't understand that evil exists and not everything is morally gray.

[@ekki1993]

The cold, calculated logic of "paying them heed will only lead to destruction" when trying to justify the merciless genocide of an entire race is the dilemma.

[@fabriziobarone5933]

Is there really a problem in believing that absolute evil exists? At least in fiction

[@Lextorias]

there is no problem with it. I think absolute evil can and should exist in fiction, and can be done really well. I just do not think frieren does it well

[@CeToxihuitl]

Good and evil are absolutes, only evil thinks it's doing good

[@poppag8281]

@@Lextorias I personaly dissagree I think Frieren does a good job of it

[@HaydenLikeHey]

@@CeToxihuitl Be so fr rn

[@HaydenLikeHey]

Yes, primarily because broad swaths of people are so disconnected from material reality that they're willing to map fiction onto the real world and use such conditions in fiction to justify, subconsciously or otherwise, their beliefs in ontological evil people or groups. The reality of people having the use of choice while also having that limited by circumstance is going to ultimately consequential while any "natural" moral bearing is just a convenient farce that shouldn't be entertained.

[@ducky19991]

Just because a demon can feel emotions and can have their own morality doesnt cancel out the fact they want to kill humans. Its really not a moral dillema if you arent a demon 😂

[@Lextorias]

it literally does. demons having intelligence and an understanding of human morality means they have all the components necessary to choose not to kill, or to adopt a different moral code. several of the demons even expressly want to, so its not a matter of pure choice. the problem is the manga gives no explanation for why they cannot change that would not apply to the human characters in the story who can

[@joshuahandlen9885]

@@Lextorias The very obvious reason that wouldn't apply to humans is that demons aren't biological creatures, unlike elves, humans and dwarves. The very fact that their bodies and clothes evaporate upon death mean that they are entirely constructed of mana and thus are more akin to androids, constructed beings.

[@charlodynatimberheart4860]

The idea that's being questioned is why we assume all demons, universally, want to kill humans, and thus why pre-emptively killing them before they have a chance to do anything, good or bad, is a good idea. If something can think, apply reasoning, and display morality and emotions, then it reasons that all of these things are subject to change; demons show varying levels of intelligence and they have their own society based on respect and dignity. It must also reason that it is possible for a demon to think twice about their desire to kill humans, in the same way a human can think twice about their desire to eat meat, and can adopt a vegetarian diet in lieu. I don't care if the lore of the manga says all demons are evil. An author made it that way. We are questioning why the author made it that way.

[@johnkrame1763]

⁠@@Lextoriastbh theyre like the goblins from goblin slayer if you look really hard you might find a mutated demon that can show empathy and morality. but theres a big reason the demons are seen as evil and it’s because EVERY instance humanity has interacted with them they commit evil acts

[@Dylan_4133]

@@Lextoriasif they could choose not to kill you would think there would be a precedent shown in the story surely. Demons are portrayed in Frieren as man hunting monsters that kill for fun. But nah let them rule the world while they pretend to work with humans 😂

[@bigscrub2]

I don't agree with the idea that sapience = morality,at least as we would understand it,we may use oursleves as a baseline when it comes to sapience but I feel that is a flawed way of thinking,it's what makes Frieren's demons so interesting to me,they are sapient beings whose minds are fundamnetaly different from our own. If you could communicate with your prey hunting would be difficult,hence their lack of guilt when it comes to killing.

[@Lextorias]

I never say sapience equals morality. the thing that proves they have morality is them literally telling us they have it. other characters saying "demons think hiding mana is morally wrong" and the demons saying "you're hiding mana, which I think is morally wrong". it's right there in the text demons being intelligent, emotional, and morally capable means they have the ability to choose *what morality they follow*. they should have the ability to choose not to be evil. to choose not to hunt, since they do not need to. the show never explains why they can’t in a way that wouldn’t also affect humans in the show who can (and do) overcome their biological nature and "achieve the impossible"

[@binarybridgador2484]

@@illum6 Ultimately, in a Doyalist sense, it is impossible for us, humans, to figure out a universally applicable moral framework to judge free will and evil. Simply because we only have a sample size of one, ourselves, that have built a civilisation capable of contemplating these questions. We’ll just have to wait until we meet aliens. Until then, the very best morally we can hope to create is the one that best fits us and the animal world. I don’t know what that might possibly be, But I have an inclining that it might have something to do with the capacity of empathy and thus a connection of understanding. We intuitively assign higher moral value to cats and dogs than worms and amoeba (careful not to say “insects” because I very well know of some VERY cute spiders and praying mantises that people keep as pets). Their expressive abilities to display emotions and behaviours that are very akin to us provides a basis for empathy and understanding, which is what can used to convey morally, concepts of good and evil. So far as we found, the more intelligent we found an animal, the more capacity for empathy and understanding we also found it to have. This seems to be an evolutionary rule, that intelligence always seems to be translated into more sociality and greater empathetic ability. So, returning to Ferrien, it would naturally be grasping at straws in the dark for us to write beings that simultaneously be intelligent AND lack all the expected empathetic connection that merits them morality. What we know for sure, is that Demons (trademarked) would never evolve here on earth, the laws of evolution would not allow it. I think this is further complicated that the empathetic capacity the Demons do towards other Demons are so Precisely targeted. This is Never seen in nature, precisely the opposite, empathetic creatures consistently extend their empathy Beyond their species. See dogs, crows, chimps, elephants, and more. Empathy seems to be targeted on a “if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it is a fellow duck in the flock”. Animal empathy seems to always be able to be “tricked” (using it outside a moral sense, I couldn’t find a better word) to apply to individuals outside their species. This “tricking” applies to both us and animals, hence the loyal relationship between a dog and a human. And the very strange thing about Ferrien is that this “tricking” only applies in one direction, no human has “tricked” a Demon’s internal empathy (as I remember, pls correct me if I missed it) the same way a Demon had a human’s. This is Very abnormal for intelligent beings, and that is why this is such a headache to work with. Thanks for bearing with my ramble. But the whole topic of where morality comes from is very interesting to me.

[@kenra3600]

@@illum6 the demons in Frieren kill just because they are prideful and like showing off their strength, power and status. That’s it. They just like being superior.

[@Anansi1701]

Especially since it is shown that they've moved beyond NEEDING to kill humans, elves and dwarves. They no longer have a need to view us as a prey species.

[@huntlordx8885]

@@Lextoriasjust because they can be morally capable doesn’t mean that’s the standard for the species, or that most would even want to be.

[@byghostlight1]

In a world where Demon Slayer and JK have entire seasons that are NOTHING but battle scenes, the battles in Frieren are fleeting and they really aren’t dragged out battles, they are fast. (Of course there are few like the school arc that do go longer). But to call it a demon of the week show just isn’t true. Even the school arc is less about the fighting and more about the story and the characters. It is a character drama not a battle arc.

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

It literally runs a in a shounen magazine, just not Weekly Shounen. It's Shounen Sunday and no, actually there is a strong emphasis on combat in the show. The battles are fleeting but that didn't stop the anime from making it a spectacle. To pretend otherwise is absurd. The only difference between Frieren and JJK is the very strong Western style fantasy setting. There is no new power system to learn, it's literally just magic. It's all the things you'd expect in a fantasy: elves, dark lord, heroes, mages. And no, the school arc was nonstop fighting, there was only one brief moment of reprieve and it was before they arrived to take the exam. Also, he called it a Monster of the Week show, they all fought random fantasy monsters to get to the current point in S1, demons are just shown to have intelligence in a way the dragons that Stark fought--doesn't.

[@bluehead4281]

A lot of Frieren's praise come from it being compared to animanga and not fantasy in general

[@Lextorias]

this just isn't true lol most battle shonen do not spend the majority of their runtime *just* fighting. to say there's entire seasons of nothing but battle scenes is just false for the vast majority of shows. frieren is no different. it doesn't focus entirely on battle, but fighting makes up a significant chunk of the show. including a multiple episode battle royale arc you would certainly exaggarate to say makes up the whole season if it were any other show also, you don't think that *any* other shonen battle anime are about the story and characters? be serious

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

@@bluehead4281 its one of the most typical examples of a battle shounen you could find

[@ismetcancelik5052]

There is an argument to be made for the creations of evil gods. It is like frieren got an already morally questionable and logically confusing dilemma and made it even more questionable and confusing because monsters fit the trope of creations of evil gods exactly except they are not servants of evil gods. and evolution? It is a smaller criticism compared to main topic but where is mana's place in ecosystem? It doesn't seem to make much sense in the evolutionary progress that creatures based on mana turn into particles and also inherently evil, with one particular species of them having sapience. There seems to be something interesting going on with inherently evil but animals and people but its explanation in anime eh I don't see it. Also controversial opinion but although I understand why people like frieren and its human moments I don't think they are done welll enough. The world is supposed to have more of it and better, too. If anything it shows that fictional works, specifically anime, doesn't have enough productions giving time to grounded experiences and emotions of humanity.

[@sire5689]

imo the demons being pure evil despite being intelligent and complex is what makes it so interesting. i dont see how this is a bad thing.

[@Lextorias]

it isn’t a bad thing for something in fiction to be pure evil. it’s bad for them to be written full of contradictions to get there

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

its bad because the story is full of contradictions and sloppy writing

[@Jumbernaut]

It's not a problem for the Demons to be intelligent and evil, but if they are intelligent, then it should be possible to try to reason with them for mutual benefit, especially since these Demons don't seem to have any real solid reason for killing humans or than "We just really want to kill humans. It's our nature". See how this is a poor excuse and readers should be insulted that the authors thought this would be a good enough justification?

[@scinary7052]

@@Jumbernaut "We just really want to kill humans. It's our nature" I can't even contain how funny it is that you think this is a weird take. This is literally just what non-vegans believe. They just really want to eat meat, it's their nature. For whatever evolutionary reason the demons simply have zero vegans.

[@nileverdeen3797]

​@@Jumbernaut the demons have existed for thousands of years. Do they really need a reason to kill the weak

[@1001johny]

Don't wild beasts also feel emotions and sorrow over dead pack memebers? They are still animals

[@k5848]

Is it right to attempt to completely eradicate a type of animal? Like imagine someone suggesting that we kill every bear or lion on sight because they are dangerous to humans. And demons aren't just mindless animals, they have human level intelligence and sentience. Functionally they are more like psychopaths than they are like a predatory animal. And advocating for every psychopath to be insta-killed would also be crazy.

[@1001johny]

@k5848 Perhaps it would be crazy, but I am not sure I see why it would be.

[@LWoodGaming]

@@k5848 Yes, if these animals were actively hurting us.

[@Lextorias]

wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. demons (as I argue in the video) do. they are incomparable to animals

[@1001johny]

@Lextorias Yes, all you have said is true. I do not mean to appear as combative to your opinion or logic, I rather enjoyed your video. I only mean to talk for the sake of conversation. So that said, on the topic of a species that is just pure evil, might I point to actual demons from the Holy Bible. They are completely capable of all the things you've listed, they understand morality and imitate human morality to manipulate. The difference here is that the demons from the Bible are spirits, while the Demons of Frieren are physical. But the inner working of their minds seem to be completely inhumane. With all that said, if it is possible that they can be redeemed, I say by all means. A good story is a good story.

[@asdfasdf4176]

I dont get it. why something sentient cant be pure evil?

[@Lextorias]

to be pure evil means you can’t ever be good. to have intelligence, morality, emotion, and the free will that comes with that means being able to choose to be good. demons can still choose to be evil (many do), but the entire species cannot be treated as evil if they have a choice

[@thatweirdguywithamask264]

​@@Lextorias They have the choice, they all choose to be evil. Simple as that.

[@h.h.w6084]

​@@thatweirdguywithamask264 Yes. Given the guys statement about "Everyone has a choice", this leads us to the conclusion that demons are a race of complete psychopaths, who *KNOWINGLY* make the conscious choice to kill, murder and brutalize humans Every. Single. Day. Just think about it. Every action. Every decision. Every errant thought, were made with the belief, nay, the *knowledge* that this will lead to more dead humans further down the line.

[@Kold-Kanadian]

@@Lextorias implying that free will makes you a good person, many people in history, both recent and ancient, used their free will to do evil things. Men, Women, and Children who were more than ready to throw away their humanity to do unto others that can be considered 'evil'

[@gascogne]

@@Lextorias That is only true for humans though. Demons being fundamentally different also means that they are fundamentally incapable of choosing good.

[@limephoenix7428]

3:41 a small note or correction but 葬送 is one of those words that don't translate cleanly to English. Like what you said is not wrong but it'd be a bit misleading to say that freiren's title translates to freiren the slayer. Basically what I mean is that 葬る- to bury, shelve and 送る- to send mean something more like to see or send off the dead rather than literally referring to being a slayer. When aura uses the title it's more of a double meaning thing in the sense that she sends deamons to their deaths but the title refers more to the idea that freiren sees off the dead due to her long lifespan. So I feel like a more accurate translation of the title is more something like freiren who sees off the dead instead. Sorry for the 🤓 ass post lol.

[@mikkelpaulick5689]

Thank you, I spent like 30 minutes trying to find a single Japanese dictionary that would translate 葬送 as slayer without any luck.

[@youngdao7555]

@@mikkelpaulick5689 I've heard Frieren the Elegy be used, I feel that is a pretty good translation

[@Lextorias]

I put text on screen explaining some of this in the video. but the official translation is still interpreting Aura's words as Frieren the Slayer and using that as a title drop. she's still using it as a nickname for Frieren to refer to her being a killer of demons. it's not inaccurate to say that's one of the meanings of the title

[@zerikane]

I heard it was "Funeral" because of...well...a very prominent member dies. As the lifespan allows her to be at the 'Journey's End'.

[@anthonylarocque7975]

I wonder why they didn't translate it as "Frieren the Undertaker" instead? Still not a literal translation, but it keeps the sort of euphemistic style that the Japanese has, while still implying she has killed a lot of people. And we can get a lot of fan art and memes of Frieren as the pro-wrestler of the same name. Better translation, more memes, everybody wins!

[@shyguypro9876]

While I hard disagree with a lot of your takes in this video, that doesn't matter. Don't send death threats over a fantasy manga. Period. No exceptions.

[@Izumi250]

I like that you worded it in a way, as if death threats over non-fantasy manga can be justified /j

[@rd-um4sp]

the period should come after "threats". But I get the sentiment ;-)

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

what do we expect from insecure shounen fans

[@kirilmitrev8391]

@@RoyThomas-c7h don't involve shounen fans, those kind of threats usually come from X(twiter) users after a show become popular

[@sindri1447]

@@RoyThomas-c7h nah it's just immature idiots that are getting their feelings hurt. No reason to blame the entire fandom of a freaking entertainment medium. I hard disagree with just about everything said in the video but I still can respect his opinion and don't feel the need to attack anybody over it. There's plenty of other anime to go around and enjoy if Frieren ain't your cup of tea. There are plenty of people who can listen to opinions that run contrary to their own without getting all defensive about it.

[@kizofio]

I just want to say it's so funny that you think Frieren's perspective on and attitude toward the demons are questionable when they did not hesitate to genocide her entire race, not just her family or village. Like, wouldn't it make less sense that she didn't hate them with all her being?

[@Lextorias]

her feelings are understandable as vengeance, absolutely. they're questionable from a moral perspective, especially when the show agrees with everything she says

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

"these people genocided my race so I must genocide them back" is not the hill you want to be dying on

[@boigercat]

Yes it is. ​@@RoyThomas-c7h

[@ericquiabazza2608]

Under that view jew would STILL hate and kill germans on the regular "Sin of the father, sin of the son" Gerneralism, jada jada Do people evne study philosophy anymore?

[@piegumplays9059]

@@Lextorias just remember that vengeance is born form injustice the moral perspective that you speak doesnt exist for something that defends it self or has seen the negatives of the bad outcome of the demons something that can get u killed or kill those around you even wiht out malice is still a treat and requires no question to defend or exterminate it if its for self defense be it one way destruction or not morality worth is nothing in the face of life be it survival or something simple as kill or be killed even the demons show this in the show when mock stright up says that he has to kill fren as shes 2 much of a danger to him and the other demons

[@quangtuantran7181]

To me, this is the same topic about Vampires, or in Weeb terms, the same moral topic of Tokyo Ghouls. Each side has their own morality, and is trying to survive in their own way. But while in Tokyo Ghouls, we see life from the perspective of both sides n understand how similar they r. In Frieren they try to make demons as far removed from humanity as possible. Sure, you can argue that they have overlapping traits, morality, mortality, etc etc. But the whole is greater than the sums, and the whole the story presents is "evil".

[@magictriangle6878]

2:42 Heiter was not the last to remain, Eisen was still around

[@Lextorias]

Heiter was the one who had Frieren take Fern, and I obviously condensed the recap for brevity

[@arsenicflask]

@@Lextorias you could have just said "her old/previous party member" it would have been more accurate and even more brief.

[@aqwthetroop]

My perspective as someone who hasn't thought too deeply about it when first watching the show is that Demons exist on a completely different understanding of the world and "morality" that we do, and that any potential to teach them human morality is futile because they exist on an entirely different moral axiom than humans and elves. It's an imperfect comparison, but it would be like trying to convince a cow that humans are morally complex and interesting beings capable of forgiveness when we collectively as a species (I know I'm excluding vegetarians and vegans here) fundamentally see cows as food and undeserving of empathy on a broad scale. Maybe demons take that a step further by not having a conceptualization of the value of life to begin with, and can't be convinced to see humans as deserving of life because they don't have the same empathy (or the same expression of empathy) that humans do when we decide to stop eating meat.

[@Lextorias]

they do have an understanding of human morality by thinking trickery is wrong, and value life via self preservation and the empathy they show towards other demons though. so their morality system is very easily understandable, actually

[@achftw]

​@@Lextoriasbut they engage in trickery, without being shown to be bothered by doing so. My take is that its Orange Blue morality. Its not the trickery specifically that they're disgusted in but in the hiding of power itself, as it is entirely anathema to their conception and understanding of the world. Though admittedly I am filling gaps that haven't been given explicit explanations, I think orange/blue squares better than them understanding morality in the same way as the humans and elves of their world. And I would say that does mean Frieren is wrong about them entirely lacking morality. She just can't, or won't, acknowledge it, probably because of how her life has been shaped in response to the demons from a relatively young age, first by what happened to her village and then by Flamme.

[@ctimegodb658]

​@Lextorias does every human see trickery being un moral? Morals is different from person to person culture to culture. People normally learn morals through their parents and communities communities. But don't the demon's rasie them self's. All demon's could be all born psychopaths and there morals don't change from birth.

[@aqwthetroop]

@@Lextorias I don't think this fully addresses my comment, but I get where you're coming from. I think that even if they have an internal system of morality that will sometimes share our moral values (i.e. trickery is wrong) they may have entirely different reasoning for it (trickery is wrong for humans because deceit is wrong, for demons it may be wrong because it doesn't show strength, or at least that's my understanding from the material). I haven't read the manga so I can't provide meaningful insight about demons showing empathy towards each other, and I don't think that self preservation necessarily means they value life, as self preservation is useful in any living thing that wants to propagate. I think the main thing I would need to see in the show/manga to fully concede to the argument in the video is for the demons to 1) have a proper theory of mind and 2) innate value for life. They sort of have a theory of mind in that they're able to understand certain triggers for why humans act and react the way they do, but so far I'm not fully convinced of point 2 because you can still provide alternative explanations (even if loose) for their moments of seeming empathy. We'll just have to see how Frieren develops. I will say that the demons are poorly written for the reasons that you laid out in that they seem to have moments of human morality, despite the material itself trying to contradict this in the text.

[@TheDeadmanstrolling]

​@@Lextorias where has any demon shown empathy for another in the anime? The only ones in the manga are I believe Macht (who is unique like the Demon King, making two of the only demons in the entire species to see value in cooperation and empathy) Demons wanting other demons to be okay, like Lugner and Millie, is depicted very clearly with the demons just seeing each other as being required for a mission. Lugner shows so sadness or empathy for his fellow demon Dracht when he figures out Frieren killed him. When he worries for Millie he is getting worried about his own safety as Fern puts up a fight against him.

[@weirdy8]

My reason that I don’t care about the demons being evil is in the modern fantasy, a demon not being evil is not subversive: it's the new norm If Frieren is aiming for a more traditional fantasy path, that comes with the territory.

[@sushiroll3795]

I mean, the issue being discussed here isn't that "it's bad to write pure evil villains;" it's that the demons in Frieren are written in a very confusing way and all of the interesting moral dilemmas that their existence could cause are hand-waved by the narrative in a really sloppy way.

[@Saithene]

@@sushiroll3795 it's not confusing at all. They are not human, they do not think like Humans, or Elves or Dwarfs. They don't understand emotions, they don't have empathy, they do have curiosity. they are creatures born of mana, and no the story has not discussed this because thats is not what the story is about. the Story is about an almost Immortal being trying to understand a people she has long ignored due to her long life. sadly your focus is on the monsters who seek to kill, as opposed to the elf who seeks to live.

[@garreonlefay6703]

​​@BIadeloreshave yet to see any example of demon empathy....and if you are talking about Macht the Golden, all he had was Curiosity

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

"If Frieren is aiming for a more traditional fantasy path, that comes with the territory" I was told Frieren was a Iyashikei character drama... but it's just a fantasy battle shounen? Wow, could've fooled me.

[@Lord_Plasma_3]

@Saithene dawg, in order to truly understand the elf, you must understand the monsters

[@randomotakunerd]

It is something I think is really interesting is that there are shows/stories that use similar concepts ('pure evil' species) yet seem to do more with them. Like the Incubators in Madoka Majica or more accurately the parasites in Parasyte. The evil entities are inherently doing evil and are acting as pure evil entities BUT like any other intelligent creature they do have the choice to alter themselves to better live with others. The Incubators choose to never see their actions as wrong and keep doing as they do. But in Parasyte we see a character alter her beliefs and self for survival and yet become better as an individual in the process.

[@JB65536]

Emotions are the basis for all morality. Just because demons can adopt a system of morality that is agreeable to their emotions does not mean they could adopt human morality. Demons would just think our morality is irrational. They have some emotions, but they lack too many for them to logically justify human morality to themselves.

[@Lextorias]

demons have very human morality though. the two moral values we've seen them have are thinking trickery is wrong, and thinking demons dying is wrong (if not shown through lugner, then certainly by solitar literally saying she didn't like the demon kings war because it killed her friends). they also have an understanding and expression of emotions certainly on par with frieren at the very least, as she is also shown to not understand some of them at all at the story's beginning there is nothing to say they *couldn't* adopt a different morality. the story has shown they have all the components necessary to. it has not given a reason why they cannot change that would not also apply to the other characters who can

[@JB65536]

@@Lextorias Demons seem incapable of having any positive emotions regrading humans. Their biology must be selectively applying emotions. This will prohibit them from having human morality. In addition they seem to find killing humans fulfilling to a degree that humans can't understand. So even if they have the emotions necessary for human morality, if they have emotions contrary to human morality that are stronger and more fulfilling, they still would have no reason to adopt human morality.

[@CombineWatermelon]

No, the word of God is the basis of morality.

[@ambushbob5383]

​@@CombineWatermelon no.

[@Overlord734]

​@@CombineWatermelon of the Goddess

[@mindlessmeat4055]

You know demons have souls right. Literally the scales Aura uses pulls her soul (she is a demon) and the targets souls and places them on a scale.

[@Lextorias]

You know the depiction of souls in Frieren is different than the depiction in Tolkien and Catholicism, right? Tolkien’s works have the morality of beings being determined by their fëa. Inspired by his Catholic beliefs that having a soul grants you free will and thus an inability to be pure evil. Souls in Frieren are just used to weigh mana levels. They have nothing to do with morality, as the author says nothing else about them. My argument is that due to having clearly provable intelligence, moral understanding, and emotion, demons would have the requirements for Tolkien’s ideas of a soul (which is different than Frieren’s, since they clearly already have that). I argue *in the video* that the actual existence of the soul itself is irrelevant, as it’s just a representation of higher consciousness and free will

[@fallintheabyss4758]

Wow this aged like milk (I read a fanfiction where a demon wasn’t evil)

[@NeoSzaman21]

This fanfic must suck balls than

[@mr.x16829]

They actually called one of the demons (8:51) "Lord Lügner"?! Holy shit how much more on the nose can you be lol, Lügner is the German word for liar...

[@cartoonishidealism582]

Yeah, that's just what the names in Frieren are like, lol. You have a character named Stark (strong) who is a strong warrior. You have a character named Übel (evil) who is a heartless killer. You have an emotionally distant girl named Fern (distant).

[@mr.x16829]

@cartoonishidealism582 i didn't even catch Fren, i assumed she was named after the plant... Speaking German makes anime a little weird sometimes, haha

[@oyah999]

​@@mr.x16829kid named Vegeta, kakarot, Bulma, etc. :

[@OfficialVowels]

Himmel is literally just the word for heaven in multiple north-germanic languages, same with Flamme translating to "flame". It's not just german, but all of the neighbors as well haha

[@mareczek00713]

Actually in many regions of Germany (Germany for most of its history was closer to US with confederation of regions than unified state) Ubel often carries also into "Bad" like "A bad girl" etc. suggesting Ubel is redeemable. Just evil would be "Bose" with their funny dotted o.

[@entropy11]

The series makes such a big point of exploring demon nature, Himmel (who is nothing but good and virtuous and kind) saying that nothing is impossible, and Frieren rejecting it based on her own knowledge and experience. This isn't a problem with the series, it's the whole point. As Frieren learns to connect with people, will she find a way to see that demons are also capable of more than anyone believed? Or are they truly immutable and irredeemable? The manga seems to be intent on answering this question, through Frieren. The contradictions are the point and hinting we don't understand their true nature. Our assumptions could be wrong, they could be right but for the wrong reasons.

[@rmw4575]

I think this is the answer. We are shown throughout the story of how quickly humans evolve and change; this in perspective of elves, who change much slower. It seems, to me at least, that the demons are in contrasts to elves, as elves are to humans and even demons to humans. I think it would be a small dissertation to explain truly, but the best TLDR I can come up with: demons are evolving to fit in with humans to survive, while humans are evolving to the elves magic to survive, and the elves are going extinct because they have stopped evolving.

[@Nothv13]

@@rmw4575 Pretty sure the manga shows that the demons are not in fact evolving to live with humans. In fact the manga shows that even a demon who wants nothing more than to live with and understand humans, simply cannot. It actually gives two examples of such, Macht and the Demon King, the latter wiping out a 1/3rd of mankind and nearly all the elves trying to understand them. Through Macht, they show demons have absolutely zero understanding of things like malice, evil, justice, guilt and other behavior regulating emotions thus can't understand how killing humans runs counter to his desire to live in coexistence with them, And despite all the time that has past, nothing had changed with how the demons behave towards the other races. Elves and humans while having a gap of perception due to lifespan differences, both tend to understand common things between them when it comes to emotions and desires since they have similar ones. Overall the demons seem to evolve less than the elves when it comes to how they interact with humans. Could this change in the future? Sure. But until now Demons are shown as if they have extreme ASPD towards other races if not completely alien thought processes incompatible with the other races.

[@frimmeln]

Exactly. And I feel like Macht is so close to reaching empathy, only stopped by his 'demon nature'.

[@sowrabsinha1931]

until that happens the criticisms presented are very much valid

[@captainmega6310]

Yeah, but the criticism's still valid

[@JoeSmith-db4rq]

This is interesting to me because I interpreted demons’ role very differently. I thought the show did a good job of characterizing them as a part of nature that plays the role of humans’ predators. As humans have never had a natural predator before, it’s not terribly outlandish to think they’d be described as evil from a human’s perspective. Critical aspects of Frieren’s early life and upbringing were shaped by the demons and it’s not surprising that she would have a similar disdain. The entirety of the show is shown through Frieren’s perspective - we learn about this world through the lens of her knowledge and experience. And while she is extremely wise and powerful, she’s still flawed. I agree with everything you’re saying about the demons, but I disagree that the world treats them as if they are purely evil. You’re right to call out the paradox - because there are certainly contradictory statements and behaviors. That being said, I think that we *perceive* that they’re evil only because we have an unreliable narrator (who catches us off guard because normally she is very reliable). I think the fact that you interpreted demons in this way shows how powerful Frieren’s (the character) storytelling is. She convinced you to think of them as truly evil even though she’s wrong. It does a great job of characterizing Frieren as well and showing us that she is flawed and sometimes irrational. As a complete tangent - I also interpreted the “what does ‘father’ mean?” very differently. This demon just witnessed a scenario where they were certainly going to be attacked and then saw another demon defuse the situation specifically through the word “father”. That’s when the human let their guard down. Being curious about “father” isn’t necessarily showing a curiosity for humans or language - it’s showing that they believe that word is powerful and they want to know how to use it to their advantage in the future to do the same thing. That being said, I pretty much agree with all of your other points :P (although I have only seen the show so I didn’t watch the second half of the video yet 😅)

[@GameFan1515]

I never imagined that breaking the cliché that demons can be good and become good could be wrong, considering that they are made to be bad, you know, the animes that usually make them can be good but it's just because of the way the author wants to tell his story.

[@sdmblack1]

Light's final scene in Death Note is a good example, sociopathy is a better way to describe demons. Other demons are tools, if their partner dies their plan fails. If they die, they cant become the most powerful. Demons know pride, which is why they reveal themselves to Flamme. A demon could TRY and learn morality, like later in the manga, but not a single one has abandoned their pride to live simply loke Frieren did once the Demon King was dead.

[@akomis5007]

I really liked Frieren anime. I watched the video and I agree with most of the points you presented. Yet I don't have the conflicting emotion regarding the way demons in Frieren were written. I wanted to present how I see it. I feel the core issue with the demons of Frieren's world is - they are inteligent, they are capable of redemption and could have existed peacefully with other races of their world. But century after century they threw away all chances to do it, showed no desire to do it. Macht was a good example of it. He declared that he wanted to learn how to feel guilt. But to me it didn't feel like he wanted to do it because he valued human lives and wanted to develop some safeguard to preserve them. No, he was just very bored and got curious about this one thing that he couldn't have. And he was determined to commit as many murders as it would take, no matter if the humanity got extinct in the process. And it put other people in a rough spot. What would you do to a group of creatures whom do not see your life and wellbeing as anything of value? All the principles that keep people from murdering each other are not working with them: 1) people can feel sympathy and can feel bad for hurting other people - demons don't 2) attacking other person can be dangerous - demons can murder whole towns with ease 3) murder rarely worth it, because people depend on the society and cooperation is more benefitial - demons are completely self-relient and humanity has nothing to offer them 4) when nothing else works, people still have fear of retribution Demons are rational beings, they know that killing people makes them hated and caused people to fight them. Yet they don't stop. I read about some real sociopaths who just lacked needed gear to feel sympathy. They were capable of abusing others without any remorce. Yet most of the time they didn't do it, because they rationally understood that it would bring consequences and antagonizing people was not in their best interest. The main issue with demons - they don't face any negative consequences. Most people are unable to face them. And few that pose a threat are welcomed "oh, finally! I haven't have an interesting fight since last decade". They are completely fine if their kin would die - they don't have bonds between themselves except "I'm weaker then you. I will Obey.", "You are useful to me. I won't hurt you if you submit." (You brought very good points how the story showed them behaving differently. I completely agree with them. Yet I interpreted all of them as mistakes in execution and not the conflict in themes. I'm quite a history nerd so I saw many mistakes and cliches in how medieval life was shown, so these looked similar - "okay, I can get the intention, but it could have been done better".) And when humanity gathered enough strength to fight back with real strength - all it took was for demons to retreat after defeat and came back when the memory about them got lost. Then they could feast again as much as they liked until the next big war. It wasn't working as a threat that would force demons to really consider "We better find a different way to live". So Frieren's mindset to me looks like a natural result of continous escalation of this conflict: "Please stop killing. It hurts us." - "We don't care. We can't feel sympathy and killing your kind is fun." "Please stop killing. We will hurt you in self-defense." - "Most of you, with very rare exceptions, pose little threat to us. And those that do are fun to fight" "Please stop killing. We won't talk or trade with you." - "We are completely self-sufficient. Our magic gives us everything we need. You have nothing of value." "Please stop killing. We will go to war with you." - "We don't care. Weaker demons dying is of no consequences to our society. You might win the war, but we inevitably return as strong after few decaded." "Then if everything else won't change your mind, we will hunt down every single of you, so there will be no demons left to return!"

[@Alucard_Ander]

By your goal logic humans would never be at peace with each other

[@LilPale]

@@Alucard_Ander Yes, only temporary peace when having the same goal. The new generation isn't guaranteed to think the same as the previous, therefore there will be variations and devieation. Which such randomness, the goal of eternal peace is impossible as some will think things like "i'm having limitations put on me" or they are simply, chaotic and cruel.

[@LilPale]

Simply because they are intelligent, doesn't mean they can be peaceful. If someone is strong and intelligent, what did you expect them to think?

[@shashumgadimbo6857]

@@Alucard_Ander Have you seen even a single page of human history? There has never been a period of absolute peace on the planet, ever.

[@ramonemiliochaconperdomo7225]

@@Alucard_Anderexactly, humans don’t actually be at peace in history of mankind. 80 years ago there was a war that killed almost 100 million people, about a 5% of world population. Even now there’s still war in somes places.

[@RedMerchant]

1.Immorality doesn't imply lack of morals it means disregard for conventional morals. There is no inherent contradiction here presenteted as display throughout the show that they function on principles alien to conventional human morality. (Too simplify immorality is describing action from perspective of MY/human moral framework) 2. Sentient meaning not inherently evil. When we are talking about morality in Christianity, sentient beings can not be inherently evil because morality is an objective fact of reality given by all mighty creator, this fact of reality can be accepted or denied by sentient beings, but it exists non the less (so sentients by itself is an ability to reject or accept gods truth). If we are talking about secular setting such as Frieren there is no reason to assume that morality is rational or "real" as being a part of natural word, therefore inherent to sentient beings (if we think of sentients as an ability to perform higher cognitive function). What we can argue is that a lot of biological functions that facilitate and create social conventions that we describe as morality are in their core arising from evaluation and are not inherent too sentient (if we are accepting sentience as ability too perceive yourself, than there is even less connection between sentients and morality). We can look at myriad of mental issues pointing to things like psychopathy, where we can see measurable difference between function of typical and non typical brain that result in different perception of morals, despite relative or higher than average intelligence between the groups. Therefore there is no reason to assume that demon in the show are even capable of accepting certain axioms (i.e. they can probably understand, but cannot internalize as part of their moral code) that we take for granted when we discuss what conventional morality, evil and good are.

[@jeffboy4231]

only watched part 1. but what if demons acting with emotion and such even though no humans are around could be a 4th wall break kinda? they are acting always because, while they may not notice, they also want to deceive us the viewers. while i think it's obviously not that, it's kinda funny to think that lol

[@Lextorias]

I think that's an interesting idea. though not to spoil the manga if you didn't read it, but we see the inner thoughts of the demons in a context where they definitely do not think anyone is observing them, and we are told that it is accurate. also it still doesn't explain all the emotions that don't benefit them in deceiving/killing in any way

[@LegiamasC-OnTwitta]

@@Lextoriasmy one problem with this analysis is…why do you think the demons are *CONSTANTLY* acting in deception? I haven’t engaged with the series for some time so maybe I don’t know or am misremembering, but where is the idea they only and definitely act in deception, therefore it’s strange when they aren’t doing that? I understood it to be how they interact with men and elves, now how they interact period. Even in frieren, demons do have the ability to be good, they just don’t really seem to want to, and unlike a predatory animal in life, demons just want to straight up kill people

[@CKarasu13]

I don't think it's fair to criticize something as being a concept that wasn't properly thought through when the concept is still being explored. We know Schlacht went to his death for the sake of the survival of demon kind. If his future sight is accurate, then the demons can't be wiped out. There must be some solution put into place at some point, unless he's wrong. We don't yet know anything concrete about the demon king yet, as well as a number of the still living sages. There's still much to explore for the story. Why is the instinct to kill so strong? Demons are dying out because of their instinct, and they know this, yet they still give no thought to killing. The macht arc doesn't really answer this issue. Perhaps it will be answered later? Also, the story does show a bit of pity for macht upon his death. He genuinely wanted to change, but died frustrated by his inability to overcome his nature. It's not celebrated, rather it's played sympathetically. The demons not always being "evil" wouldn't make the past messy. The Demons tried to exterminate the elves and warred with hunanity. Freiren's actions in the past do have justifications. One last bit: did you notice that once Macht enacted his plan he barely killed anyone? His curse doesn't kill you, so Freiren undoing it means there were very few casualties.

[@Lextorias]

I say in the video that the story is still ongoing, and I hope to be proven wrong, but the story as it is has major flaws that are worth exploring. it has issues that should be talked about as they come up. I don't think you should just avoid thinking critically about something or avoid sharing criticism until it's finished, especially a story that is releasing in bite-sized chunks with no set end date. if the story of frieren were finished and I simply hadn't read it all, that would be a different case. but my feelings, like the story, are infinitely mutable as time goes on also, the entire last 1/3 of the video pretty summarily explains why I decided to make this a video now, as the way that frieren discussion has been going online definitely should be talked about while it's still happening. the fanbase universally claiming one point of view that is contradictory at best is something that should be challenged

[@CKarasu13]

​@@LextoriasI don't think the idea that Demons are just evil and deserve genocide is universal. It seems to stick with a certain loud section of the fanbase for sure. Also, most of your criticisms can be addressed as the story goes on so long as they turn out to be intentional. Contradictions can be intentional or mistakes, after all. If the author is ignorant to these issues then that would suck. My point is we don't know how thought out this is yet, so making a judgment like that is premature. Not that criticisms aren't warranted.

[@ietdkvd]

@@CKarasu13 "also, the entire last 1/3 of the video pretty summarily explains why I decided to make this a video now, as the way that frieren discussion has been going online definitely should be talked about while it's still happening. the fanbase universally claiming one point of view that is contradictory at best is something that should be challenged"

[@ArthurGenius]

I always understood it as demons seeing their actions not being evil in their moral principles, and being curious to know why humans had such different morals

[@joaovitorlima9952]

But isn't the contradiction exactly the point? The entirety of the show explores these opposing ideas. Frieren is cold and distant towards her peers because of her lack of interest. That changes when she loses Himmel and is shunned by the proverbial mob. In this moment, she asks herself why didn't she take an interest while she could which highlights the apathy she had as someone who will live for thousands of years towards creatures that live such short lifespans. The contrast between the two is what makes this exploration of themes interesting. I would say you are right on your analisys of the demon's behavior being biologic determinism. What I would like to draw your attention to is that the contrast between the demons as a species and Frieren is the point. They are the opposing side to her wanting to change by not being able to change (they hunt and eat humans, as you know). It's during Frieren's interactions with demons that we see what she was and understand how she is now. The point being showing how there are things you can change and things that you can't change. In the case of the demons, they can't change their nature, only their environment and methods. This is exactly what guides Frieren's moral compass. To her, creatures who are known to only hunt and kill for consumption or sport are undeserving of understanding. She places them not as a force of nature, but as actual evil. This is something you've concluded as well. Thus, when a demon shows these similarities to humans and challenges Frieren's understanding of the world, she resorts to the reasoning that guided her throughout her life. That shows us what can't change in her. The story showing us that side of the demons is planting these seeds of doubt that Frieren has eliminated long before the story begins. Frieren is resolute, whereas we have only just started walking beside her. So, whether demons are truly capable of emotions and morality has no weight on Frieren's decisions because to her understanding, they don't. TL, DR: The demons might be sentient, yes. But if they are deserving of mercy or not is irrelevant, just like the orcs

[@Lextorias]

the problem is that frieren’s journey is one about understanding and empathizing with others, and how that is a good thing she should do more of. so presenting her with characters that she does not empathize with or understand, and saying that is a good thing, is in direct conflict with this you’re right that the parallels between frieren and the demons is apparent in the story, and that the story is presented with her as the moral center, so ultimately we’ll never see the demons objectively. but even so, demons being capable of emotion and morality does negatively affect the show

[@humanintheflesh9165]

​@@Lextoriasit's a classic case of "white vs black" it's not a grey area. Since frieren is the white(good) while the black is the demons(evil)

[@anonnon6278]

@@Lextorias While Frieren is the center of the story, she isn't necessarily morally perfect. Its shown repeatedly that she can make mistake in judgement despite her age. This is also shown in various Human groups, both those who (possibly foolishly) tried to coexist with demons, and ones that have not. We're watching this through the lens of a hero of one faction in a multi-generational war that may not be able to be won in a way that preserves continued existence of the losing side. Acting as if Fieren's lived experiences leading her to a belief that all demons are irredeemable means therefor that all demons are irredeemable is a flawed take imo. Its no different than some of the views of your average infantryman fighting in the pacific in WW2 on the nature of Japanese morality being taken for the true nature of Japanese morality. That man may have seen his enemies commit truly horrific acts, and believe them to be irredeemable monsters because of it, and he can also be a good person fighting for a good cause despite that view clouding his judgement.

[@dopplerganger1433]

@@anonnon6278 the problem is that the story never questions her judgement or shows any evidence that she's wrong

[@anonnon6278]

@@dopplerganger1433 I don't think it needs to. Dealing with every moral dilemma in a neutral way isn't necessary for the story to explore its central point. Frieren has her morals and we can also explore her learning to connect with people. That her morals may not be 'correct' can be irrelevant to the story beyond the opportunity to build contrast and conflict between her and other people who are themselves perhaps more 'correct' with their views on the issue.

[@JuniperAelmos]

I also had this problem with JJK and the nature of the curses.

[@geekofsteal]

I think that even if you could argue that demons in Frieren BJE have a sense of morality, that morality is STILL immoral. "Killing humans is good" and "Power is the most important attribute"(in service of killing humans) is a moralism, but ultimately evil. In fact I would argue that if demon behavior was TRULY animalistic, and based purely on instinct, that wouldn't be evil. It would be behavior that mimics what we would call cruelty among moral beings. To identify moralism among demons makes them MORE deserving of destruction, since their morality says that the subjugation and destruction of humans is fundamentally good, by their own standards.

[@AMaskedIndividual]

But what he's saying, is that they can *understand* morality. And thus have potential, under the correct upbringing, to be good

[@geekofsteal]

However that is just my opinion, and I respect yours. Unfortunately I haven't read the manga so I have to stop at the 24 minute mark!

[@NoraNoita]

I talked in my comment about seeing Demons more as animals too, like you said, we humans in the real world, hold ourselves to a higher degree than other animals with lesser intellect, in a way, the demons in Frieren would be the current societal and moral behavior of Humans, "We are better than cows, we grow them to eat them"(this would even align with Demons from The Promised Neverland), "We are better we need the space, cut down the woods, enclose the yards, kill the wolf if it comes to close to our settlements". You can't argue that this is morally good behavior in the grand scheme, we do it because we can and most feel entitled to this. Demons kill because they feel morally superior, Demons deceive because it gives them an advantage over the humans.

[@FathDaniel]

@@AMaskedIndividual they can't really, they don't possess the human emotional framework. To get that, they would need to have human attachments, desire for socialization, etc. It's like looking at LLM and saying, it's sentient. Then fully trusting LLM with their life's savings. You can't make demons be socializable the more than you can make cats social animals, at best, we can nudge them towards that direction.

[@AMaskedIndividual]

@@FathDaniel did you watch the video?

[@thegreat4]

From Frieren's perspective the demons are indefensible, so the story portrays things as such

[@Drejzer]

9:47 However it can be used for furthering the effectiveness of their developing. Though admittedly it might just be me playing the devil's advocate.

[@Lextorias]

it **can** be used to further deceive people, but we've just seen they don't need to know the meaning to deceive using the word, so any further learning would be for context or curiosity. contradicting what they told us about why they speak our language. if they genuinely only asked to learn to deceive better, why would the other demon dismiss them?

[@ntahmar-p3t]

​@@Lextoriasyou are using this scene in a story sense when it was effectively used for us the audience as fourth wall break so that we can understand that they don't know the meaning of their own words

[@MxPokirby]

@@ntahmar-p3t You realize that 4th wall breaks *are* inconsistencies, yes?

[@Lextorias]

@@ntahmar-p3t everything in a story is for the audience. them asking the question is still something that happens in the world, which has to make sense with the other established elements of the world, which it doesn't. if they wanted it to be a reveal purely for the audience they could've just had the narrator tell us instead of the demons themselves

[@Minimonster121]

34:13 Why did you choose that particular moment of her? haha

[@Lextorias]

first result on Google

[@nixnax1489]

I find these kind of topics both interesting and kind of a moot point. While people have a general set of morals due to society, not all of us share the same ones. If the demons have an entirely different set of morals from humans, then why should we judge them with our morals? What would that give us? Moral superiority? What for? You can't hope for a pacifist ending with the odds shown in the manga. Did humans understand the Dodo before they died out? No, they did.

[@Lextorias]

the problem is the demons do actually have a very human set of morals. they believe trickery is wrong, and they believe other demons dying is wrong (shown through solitar disliking the demon king's war because it killed her friends). their morals are not incomprehensible. they're so understandable that frieren is actually able to exploit them. yet they also have higher intelligence and emotion and thus all the capabilities of free will. so they should have the ability to change their morals to a different standard if they want. but they can't, and the story has given no reason why they can't that would not apply to the other characters in the story who can. so the problem is not that their morals are different, but that the story says they cannot change. you say we have no morals to judge them on, but we have the morals of the story, which are largely the exact same as frieren's. the world of frieren doesn't have absolute morals, but it does follow main characters and thus promote their ideals as the ideals of the story. the main characters are already given moral superiority via the story implicitly agreeing with everything they do, and have other characters like lugner say things just to confirm their morality is true. it's just that by doing so the story has introduced contradictions and conflict with its main themes and logic

[@Dud3itsj3ff]

You said the show was mostly fighting… but like 10% of the show is actually fighting. 😅

[@Lextorias]

not even close lmao

[@sentryion3106]

It’s getting and more though. The recent empire assassination arc is doing a lot more combat and less voll which imo is a little bit of a shame.

[@PositiviteaTheFirst]

@@sentryion3106 Well yes, but the combat is centered around the political intrigue and to demonstrate the differences between the Empire's mages and the Continental Magic Association's mages,

[@BlackWeroPlays]

Even thou i watch anime and movies mostly to entertaint myself and dont overanalysis the different topics on each of them I appreciate how deep you take this topic. I can´t understand how someone can get mad for something like this, I would even say is really entertaining to see how others think of different media. Great video btw!

[@JoshuaHenelyThornhill]

I really don’t agree with you on anything you said but that doesn’t stop me from seeing the interest in the points you bring. I find it intellectually stimulating.

[@yawn5150]

I have a thought, manga spoilers ahead With Frieren basically time traveling at one point, a character that can read people's memories, and a demon that can see the future, it seems like there would be some mechanism to form some kind of iterative time loop with this in which the demon king could learn more each loop, bringing information to the past and iterating on it based on what effects different actions had, perhaps this is the plan?

[@rexthero]

So, to preface I agree with a lot of your points, but this is my look into it after reading those manga chapters myself and this video appearing randomly in my feed. Frieren as a show is very show dont tell, it has a lot that you can see to get the context of feelings, it loves to do this. Every time we see a demon talk or speak, or do anything... it is a lot of telling. when we look past the words of frieren, of the demons, of everyone. you can see yes, these demons are sentien, they can change, they can be different... here is where the problems start and it because of context. from reading the chapters of frieren we learn the demons that want mutual cooperation are some of the strongest because of it, but also cause the most ammount of damage when that happens. We know heaven for frieren is located in the demon king's castle... why? I think there is definetly more to demons then what the show is saying because what the show is SHOWING and what the manga is SHOWING makes it seem like there are more to them than we or even frieren knows, and that to me is fascinating.

[@samuelrodriguez9801]

I think of them as being more like the Zeti and Black Arms from the Sonic games they only feel empathy towards their own kind and have a survival of the fittest mindset.

[@Aralayt]

I saw that tweet in the wild and didn't think it was supposed to be a critique, cuz I agree with it and think that that's fine. I don't really have a problem with the story having biological determinism. I don't think there's anything a story can't depict, as long as it's well thought out. And I think there are some interresting question here. How do you deal with a race that is stronger and live longer than you and have historically been unable to assimilate? When can you trust them, when they can just wait 200 years before inacting their plan? I think the flashback with the demon girl is really important because she wanted to make peace with the village, she just didn't "get it", that what she did was an evil act that would cement her death. My main question would be: Are the characters doing things they wouldn't or shouldn't do? If they aren't, then what is the issue? We can imagine a scenario where demons get "reeducated" and live happily with humans, but in the here and now when a demon is trying to kill you, what should you do?

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

"Are the characters doing things they wouldn't or shouldn't do?" They literally apropriate demon magic for themselves and use it against them. See: Zoltraak. I find it odd that the demons are show to be vile, inhuman creatures yet despite this, it was not above mages of the past to emulate their techniques and abilities for themselves. If demons are to be condemned as Frieren says, why use their spells? This isn't even about the mana concealment - they literally use demon magic.

[@Lextorias]

as I state at the end of the video, the problem is that it isn't very well thought out. it directly contradicts many of the other themes of the story, actually. you bringing up that the characters should just do what they would do is only addressing the internal consistency of the narrative, which I talk about in the video to address your point at the end, killing demons who are actively trying to kill you "in the here and now" is justifiable. but that is a different question than the morality of eradicating all demons, as frieren wants to do

[@Aralayt]

@@Lextorias I didn't want my comment to be too long, so I didn't respond to the thematic argument, as that is secondary to me and I think that you can still say it's thematically sound. Frieren has given up on the demons as she had given up on befriending humans. She views others as too young and naive to learn from, so it took Himmel's death for her to try and understand and empathize with humans and a big part of the story is her getting better at that. Demons are then the final boss of empathy and it should take a lot more for this character to start trying to understand them. Frieren thinks it's too difficult and costly to try and save demons. Giving up is not ideal, but legitimately, how would you practically go about redeeming the demons? You talk about giving a different set of moral values, but that's not a guarantee. Like you can make humans devalue life and freedom and all things nice, but can you do that forever? The best thing would be if there was some magic that could ensure that all demons forever couldn't harm humans unless threatened and then only in some magical "fair" proportion. To go back to themes, it's fine to have themes challenged or contradicted within a text and I think Frieren (the story) becomes a lot more interresting by having a group where trying to empathize feels like the wrong move that'll get you killed. It makes me think more about the themes over just having empathy and redemption being magical cure alls for every problem. I hope we can both agree that the author of Frieren is capable of writing complex characters and it would have been easy to just make the demon-human fight a cycle of revenge with no clear villain, so I think it's fair to assume that these contradictions are intentional. I don't wan't this to come across as you having to like Frieren or even that you have to be fine with how it handles evil. I really hate it when people treat other people's feelings about media as some personal attack. I'm not even that big of a Frieren fan. I think it's good, but there's manga out there that i think is clearly better (read Vinland Saga if you want exploration of redemption and what it takes). While I have you, there is 1 thing I was unsure of in your video and would like clarified. Do you think the Orcs make the Lord of the Rings worse? It sounds like you don't think Tolkien succeeded in justifying how orcs are treated. If that's the case, is there a difference between them and Frierens demons?

[@Lextorias]

@@Aralayt "I think it's fair to assume that these contradictions are intentional" I do not think it is fair at all to assume that everything is intentional, until we are given any amount of proof that it is. it's pointless to speculate where the story is heading, but where the story is at now, it remains an issue I think that the dilemma of the orcs is a sticking point in the novels, yes. it is a sticking point for a number of people, Tolkien included. contradictions do not singlehandedly make a story bad, but they do certainly detract. how much is up to you. as I explain, frieren's demons run into the same dilemma and also do not solve it, so they also suffer from this same detraction, even though the stories and attempted answers for the dilemma are different

[@terranghost5432]

"The Thermian Argument Being Used on Frieren" There's a more fitting video title.

[@_Delulu__]

I watched the whole thing without reading the manga and the spoilers were definitely worth it

[@jackmck8644]

I dont think having free will/being inheritly evil is not contradictory. There's an idea of total depravity within the calvinist branch of Christianity. It espouses that we are not good whatsoever, since our hearts only follow our desires which are wicked. It states we are slaves to our sin, slaves to what we believe. If the demons inheritly believe that killing and deceiving humans is good or necessary to survival, that is of their nature, which is inheritly evil to to the other races, which is where we ground our morality watching the show. Being curious or begging for ones life doesn't negate that. I like your interpretation, though. You've definitely thought about it a lot longer than I have. I very much enjoyed watching it.

[@dantetugaoen5836]

they didn't kill the demon lord, the sealed it lmao her master even saw a potential of frieren to be the one and only person "killing" the demon lord in the far future of which frieren's current journey will determine besides wanting to see her dead comrades

[@animedistilled]

You make a lot of excellent points that I agree with, but I interpret the what the story says in a different way Whenever the story says the demons are purely evil beasts, it comes from the mouth of someone who is invested in that point of view (ie. frieren or her teacher), which I take as being a biased opinion. I read the story as more of a tragedy, where because of each characters flaws they cannot coexist. Freiren refuses to give demons a chance to change, because she believes that even if they could coexist, demons would only end up causing harm. The demons that wish to coexist have been conditioned by their environment to use violence as a tool to reach their goals. Macht attempted to coexist with humans, and even adopted their moral code for a bit, obeying their rules and not killing innocents. However, because his goal was to try and understand the emotion of guilt, he did so by following what he saw in humans, guilt over the death others. I think Demons are not bound by biological determinism, but instead kill because thats how their society raised them. The traits of frieren and the demons clash and make coexist impossible, not because of lack of desire for it, but because they current characters are incompatible with each other. I believe that the show recognizes its dilemma and embraces it, asking us to not see this as a battle of good versus evil, but a tragedy caused by incompatible characters and moralities. I could also have missied the entire point of the video and have failed to say anything of value.

[@lightishredgummi]

I've clearly been watching far too much kingdom hearts content because through the first half of the video, literally all I can think about is the first Organization XIII. the members were constantly told that they didn't/couldn't have hearts and therefore could not feel emotion, and simply remembered what it was _like_ to have a heart... (spoiler) only for that to be revealed as basically propaganda, because they can absolutely feel emotion and even form hearts of their own

[@BlaireRabbit1440]

This was fascinating, and hit a lot of points that I felt were strange during that first demon arc but didn’t put two and two together. Thanks for this!

[@extraful1]

I like moral dilemmas. I feel like some characters are just going to be considered evil despite their sentience and ability to change. It adds a bit of evil to characters that should be considered good, whoch I think is realistic. I think having this hero character have a notably evil characteristic that should be questioned makes them even more interesting. I also think that having characters be completely sentient and yet still be pure evil is interesting. I just think it's all interesting.

[@MxPokirby]

I wouldn't even call it a "moral dilemma" tbh. It's just authors loving putting violence & murder in their stories "because it's cool", remembering that murder in real life is bad actually, deciding the answer is to just say "don't think about it :)" and then release their works to the public, in a society that is increasingly interested in *thinking about it.*

[@charlodynatimberheart4860]

This is fine, if it's well written. The issue is that Frieren is proven right 100% of the time. It's not "this hero character embodies an evil trait, let's explore that." It's "this character would happily commit genocide against an entire race. This is a morally good choice and the comic will be written to enable and reward this viewpoint"

[@4071816]

Most of the response from the twitter mob is simple tribalism, what do you expect in a election year? after people being fed with culture war bs for the past decade... I understand your angle of criticism and the points you made are interesting, although most of the dilemmas can be boiled down that the manga is still a piece of commercial publication... so entertaining a mass audience with varied levels of literacy is somewhat important (???), so in the end just another adventure, lots of fighting, more easily distinguishable enemies (so the protagonist and kill) and not too much complicated discussion about morality, etc What I believe is missing in your argument is that all your assumptions are based on translations and your definition of "demon" came from a purely Judaeo-Christian standpoint... obviously I'm not an expert on Semantics or Etymology but it felt weird to me that after such a deep-dive on the concept there is no effort to understand/explain the intentions of Yamada Kanehito... or how western definition of "demon" might differs to "魔" or "魔族", the latter translates as "demon race" and is the actual term (first by Flamme) being used to describe demons that able to speak human language and sort of associate themselves. And at the end it felt to me you talk more about Tolkien rather than the creators of 葬送のフリーレン...

[@Lextorias]

I purposefully avoided bringing up Yamada because they haven't talked about this at all and trying to assume their reasoning isn't productive. the only arguments and evidence I use in the video are ones directly from the story itself, and those given by Tolkien because he did write about his reasonings a lot, and we can use those to understand how a work like this is written. I wanted to present the story as its own self contained work as much as possible, as going outside of it to ascribe motivation or real world application isn't useful the etymology of the demons and the words used to describe them are interesting, but unrelated to the topic of the video. I only bring up orcs and their history to describe their purpose and dilemma in the story, since Frieren's use of demons is very similar, and the story obviously has at least some lineage in its use of elves and high fantasy that date back to Tolkien

[@Verte7]

Thank you for this video! I've felt this way since i first read frieren and this explains it so well!

[@Funz]

i didnt think about this dilemma that much while watching the show because tbh i expected them to maybe challenge it later. i skipped the manga portion because i didnt wanna get spoiled so idk how far in you got, but im assuming since you made this video they havent challenged it yet (and maybe never will). i still loved season 1 of the show so im gonna watch season 2 and onward but i definitely wont enjoy it as much if they never challenge this moral dilemma in the show

[@matteodigallo561]

Hey there, as LotR super fan I wanted to add a bunch of details about the orcs behaving badly but not being evil by default. During the cirith ungol sequence the two or commanders, Gorbag and Shagrat, are patrolling the shelob's den while Sam is hidden using the ring and listen what they are saying. And two orcs talks about being tired of sauron and the nazguls, wishing to find a quiter place where rest (and plunder) without any boss above them. So they are clearly capable of wishing an improvement of their condition. Then later they decide to backstab each other to show the prize to their reviled bosses, but this means that they posses a certain degree of freedom to choose to behave as greedy and evil bastards. Also the starship trooper things is going to haunt heinlen for centuries, the poor bastard wanted to just write a story about recruits in a space fantasy war and just used bugs because he didn't care about the other side for what he was going to say in the novel.

[@FsFs3mk-u9n]

I had the same ideas about the morality of the show as you and I love how the mangaka touches the topic ALOT, how they'll resolve this will probably be the decider on weither freiren is a masterpiece or not Also not fully related by please ignore what people praise and don't when deciding if a story is good or not, you should know better

[@beckhamjenkins4798]

I love the tf2 backrounds omg

[@obito440]

the shitstorm on twitter made me want to watch this video even tho i have never watched this anime before, but i am a sucker for analisis videos like this so i am glad, good vid!

[@Plexicraft]

Looking to Tolkien’s Catholic upbringing: if orcs are analogues for demons in the bible, then the bible has the same dilemma due to demons / angels not having a chance for redemption. This seems to be more of a dilemma about “why are these clearly sentient beings beyond Yahweh’s forgiveness?” Edit: grammar

[@Lextorias]

biblical demons are described as fallen angels, and their evilness is due to conscious choice, which is different than being depicted as beings that are born evil. at least in this specific dilemma. you're right that there is parallels in asking why fallen angels cannot change for the better, but that is more of a theological dilemma stemming from the bible as a morality tale

[@Plexicraft]

@ right, it’s not the same dilemma but I see it as sort of the root. Frieren inherited a dilemma that wasn’t solved in its closest analogue and now has less connective tissue to have another crack at making sense of the root dilemma… but also more freedom in the ways it could eventually solve this more abstracted version of the it.

[@gaiusoctavius5935]

@Plexicraft Lextorias provided a great response to your great question, but another reason why God can not simply forgive demons is that, unlike humans, they have experiential knowledge of him, i.e., his existence, character, and will. Thus, unlike humans, who merely trust and believe that God exists and is who he claims to be, demons knew this before the universe was created and thus have no excuse for revolting against him.

[@Plexicraft]

@@gaiusoctavius5935 That’s a great point and hits right to the heart of “root dilemma”. Tolkien (and Frieren by extension) seems to bring over these unredeemable demons as analogues but without also bringing over (or at least focusing on / explaining) that context you provided. Without it or when different reasoning is used (eg: “they’re just beasts / but are they?” or “they were born evil / but were they?”) It starts to set off alarm bells for the audience regarding the fairness of the situation.

[@Voids19]

You are forgetting that orca choose to be evil, or rather they were born to be. Humanity has free will. This applies for demons. They choose evil because it’s instinctual.

[@ValtenBG]

I want to point out that many of the answers we have gotten about demons come from Frieren herself, a person who dedicated her life in exterminating demons, someone who hates them to the very core of her being. It is given that her answers are biased towards them being irredeemable. When you got to the point of the video where you started talking about the manga, I paused it and went and read the arc for myself. The conclusion of the arc showed that the demon, Macht, unknowingly felt some sort of affection for the humans. He didn't realize it but it was there. The ones telling that demons were this and that were the characters. The story paints the opposite.

[@milesedgeworth4845]

Here’s my take: If the demons in Frieren didn’t look so human (maybe more like Qual), this video + its point probably would be short-lived. Kinda meta, ngl. (Don’t take this as a ‘hater’/ ‘detractor’ comment btw)

[@Lextorias]

which of my points would change if the demons were all terrible looking? the entire point of the demons is that they look like humans to deceive anyways. if they all looked like Qual, they wouldn't exist

[@downwindfish1]

sentient beings who "don't look human" aren't any less worthy of moral consideration, this way of thinking is why genocides happen

[@matthewprice6465]

i think my favorite moral dilema on this kind of subject is the assassin trilogy by robin hobb. villagers are kidnapped and taken to a mysterious ship, they are then released back to the shores and have been changed all empathy eliminated and now driven by immidiet satisfaction, they become like violent zombies forcing their former family and friends to deal with them themselves

[@otimo144]

I disagree with a lot but thanks for keeping it respectful. The way you popped up in my feed i was kind of expecting you to go hard against the fans or something but nah all you had was a different opinion lol

[@ambientNexus]

What do you disagree with?

[@xxkankala1671]

@@ambientNexusi actually wanna know to

[@aqualucasYT]

Sending death threats over disliking an anime is insane

[@bhuv_]

average conclusion to any sort of internet discourse

[@chaserseven2886]

you can't criticize anime these days without getting dogpiled or get called a tourist

[@MxPokirby]

@@chaserseven2886 Wtf do you mean "these days"? It's literally always been like this. Nothing's changed for the better in all this time.

[@oscara1573]

Its been done in the 90s when Neon Genesis Evangelion just aired and probably before

[@Flopdoodle]

@@chaserseven2886 "These days"? Friend, it's been like this since the dawn of the internet as we know it and probably even before! Unhinged anime fans are one of those constants in our world.

[@animdalf9178]

I've been thinking myself that the story could end on some variation of "there must always be a -Lich- Demon King!", Frieren effectively picking up the mission of integrating demons into human society. After all if demons really do respect strength and obey mana hierarchies, she should be well able to do that, and it could be the end state of her own emotional journey. But as it stands now it would need a lot of work to actually reach that conclusion and be satisfying, and at least from today's perspective it would be a really bitter ending. (although I'm not a good writter, so what do I know) Also end of that Tolkien letter you read at the end is really funny, I think a lot of people posting on the internet today should probably sometimes think "It seems to be taking myself too importantly" before they click "send".

[@Shinb4u]

I always assumed that demons had some kind innate lack of empathy for humans which prevented them from changing their ways. Also it could be possible that they can change their ways but simply havent been given the chance or they had a hard time adjusting to human society. I think your thoughts are valid but I still enjoy frieren for the interactions between characters and fight scenes.

[@bridge-moonproductions6823]

Yeahhhh, after what happened on Twitter, I was waiting for this lol

[@9Yosef]

what happened

[@bridge-moonproductions6823]

@ He talked about this subject on Twitter and got severely dog piled over it. He talks about it in this video at 39:30

[@RoyThomas-c7h]

did this incident chase him off twitter? kinda sad if true

[@bridge-moonproductions6823]

@ Nah, I think it’s more that Twitter has just become an awful place

[@imperatordrakon6488]

​@@bridge-moonproductions6823 it's cause his opinion was dogshit.

[@44444ever]

you brought up how the whole story is frieren learning connection and feelings towards people around her and such. and the manga's not finished yet. i feel like maybe this absolutism she has towards demons could change as the story goes? this isn't meant to be like a slam dunk against your whole video, I agree with basically everything you said, I just think it might be too early to call it set and stone. edit: 38:56 nvm I did the shitter commenter thing where I didn't finish the video

[@swordierre9341]

32:23 Only watched a couple episodes of this show, but is it possible, this contradiction might be intentional. Maybe the story wants us to think about this stuff. Edit: i agree with you, i hope the contradictions are leading somewhere. But maybe the lack of answer is "the point" is some weird way.

[@FlantisFroggu]

After seeing the feedback, I think this video's greatest flaw is how it was trying to be fact and not a theory I know it didn't say it was a fact, but if you frame it as a theory then the reception would had been better

[@otttimon5654]

How is this a theory. It’s a reading of Frieren and how Frieren is contridicting itself

[@hiro_444]

exactly

[@superduper5831]

it’s an analysis/criticism of the way demons are written though

[@henriquepacheco7473]

it isn't theory, it isn't fact, it's an analysis.

[@megamagicmonkey]

I’d really like to comment on this all as I find the dynamic fascinating and have for a long time. As far back as Lord of the Rings and Sleeping Beauty or vampires. I like the concept of a “pure evil” villain, but I also like the effort of challenging such assumptions and finding paths of meaningful redemption for the irredeemable. I noticed some contradictions in Frieren as well. Even the very existence of the demon king himself in Frieren seemingly contradicts some of the facts regarding them, so I’m curious how it all plays out. But beyond positing my own thoughts and working within the show, I can’t say much and I feel a great chunk of this discussion is behind the manga spoilers, which I do not wish to see. So I’ll just say this. I do not see Demons as pure evil in Frieren. I see them as what I call “anathema villains”. Forces that are - malicious or otherwise - inherently counter to the well-being of “the good folk”. Loose term. Vampires are great anathema villains because no matter their character or intentions or philosophies, it’s undeniable that their sustainment hinges on the deaths of people. Lots of good room for conflict there. And I’ve seen too many stories that merely present such conflicts and villains as “misunderstood” or victims in their own right. Not saying there’s not a place for that in stories, I love that stuff too, but as a growing implicitness forms towards them, I find myself missing these more concrete examples of conflict. Maybe demons can be cooperated with, but not with any notion that comes easy. No amount of hugs and “can’t we all get along” fixes the dynamic. Just like with orcs, like you mentioned, if things are to be better between the two camps, it’s going to take a lot of work and there’s going to be bad things that happen on that road to a better tomorrow.

[@Bytrius]

As someone that absolutely LOVES Frieren, I can totally understand your points here. They make a lot of sense and I think are backed by very well researched logic. It sounds stupid, but I think a big reason why people like that the demons are "evil for the sake of being evil" was this desire a lot of people had for people to stop writing antagonistic characters that ARE empathetic and redeemable, which I think was a really popular thing to think after a character like Jack Horner from Puss and Boots: The Last Wish came out and him just being evil for the sake of it was oddly refreshing to people (though there are "villains" in that story that fit other molds as well like Goldilocks and the Three Bears who are all quite literally the "empathetic and redeemable" ones). Because of this sentiment, though, I think your tweet was likely just poorly timed with this take being so popular (however I am NOT justifying the hatred spewed at you at all that is genuinely disgusting. like it is an anime ppl jesus). I will say, however, you're definitely not the first one I've seen have this opinion on the demons in Frieren. I think this problem has definitely sparked discussion in the community as, like you said, how demons are written directly contradicts the themes and stories Frieren is trying to tell. I, too, find it very odd, but I enjoyed the rest of the show so much that I never thought about it super deeply until after watching this video (skipped part 2 to avoid manga spoilers tho lmao). I'm glad videos like this can be made where a show as highly rated as Frieren can still be deconstructed and criticized in a very fair and reasonable way, so thanks! Definitely will be looking at this show with a little more scrutiny now.

[@lordoblivion8038]

Agree with you, and also i feel like I'm one of the few individuals who likes the very idea of antagonist or villains to be redeem. Its just a matter of "HOW" a author "TRIED" to redeem a character without going "lame" or "ruin" the character is diverse i may say. Like fck there are characters that are REALLY evil and folks love it, but introduce the idea of "redemption" card to them, they go ape shit. And to be honest i find it very questionable and can't relate. I can't even fathom why "if you make a character purely evil, then they're boring" yet they only wanted is a "EVIL, IRREDEMABLE ASS, COMPETENT" as a one way to be acceptable.

[@bastion4975]

Yeah. I had the same conclusion. I love Frieren a ton, but this video shone a light to a criticism that I didn't want brought to my attention because I'll have it at the back of my head from now on. I'll probably willingly ignore it to keep the narrative consistent as I watch it or read it, if that makes sense, and for enjoyment's sake. But, again, I'll probably have it at the back of my head from now on.

[@btchiaintkidding7837]

i totally dont get all the fuss about evil dem0ns. Frieren is traditional high fantasy without much subversion, but still succeeds in not becoming predictable cuz of stuff like these where it turns your well educated expectations upside down. Reasons of the Dem0ns being evil is the same when we first see lugner a viewer/reader with good media literacy would predict that "oh i see, so this the arc where frieren learns how to overcome eth&&nic bias and learns empathy for something xenos or her former enemies. look they can talk, lugner talks too see? we can hash it out surely frieren is wrong and will gain some juicy character development by communicating with the demoss " except no , the story batista b0mms us dem0ns are entirely separate species, they speak not to communicate but to manipulate, their words lack meaning and absolutely hollow, they are tragically d00med, inherently irredeemable and ev&l just like the orcs are in Tolkien's work. this story arc not only elevates Frieren as a character to be relible and her advice as something to be revered with as a mentor, it also guilttrips us into respecting/liking her more at the end of the arc. that is all there is to it. but for skme fqng reason modern audience literally refuse to accept mysticism and archetypes in their fantasy series it seems. and this is one of them. Frieren's story could have easily turned the dem0ns into 2nd class citizen.loke 90% of western fantasy does with its elf r&cism, but it decided to do somethong cooler and unique by making them archetypically evil and people are just l0sing their mind over it. ffsn Ppl losing their mnds over it is just bell curve phenomena and if anything frieren's story telling has become the perfect litmus test to sus out mid wannabe pseud0intellectual anime critics that fail to realize the reasoning behind why the story goes in the direction it is going. thats it

[@rodolfotolentino5718]

​@@lordoblivion8038 I agree that redemption stories are good, but a good redemption story should be balanced by the natures being established.

[@lordoblivion8038]

@@rodolfotolentino5718 true and i am not opposed in order to be reddem, they have to suffer so much to the point they have to change their ways no matter how they suffer through karma.

[@jonesygaming2735]

Really like that Watsonian/Doylist idea you brought up. I’ll be thinking about it with any other stuff I watch or read.

[@legithopecrew]

Loved the video. I haven't watched the anime or read the manga, but I am not hype to watch it / read it than before so I can engage in this. Given that background information, I like the idea that the demons might be self culling out the demons that do become more emotional / empathetic / less blood thirsty. This idea came to me when you showed the video of the demon that was excited get cut down by another demon. Thanks for another amazing video!

[@yokayoksven]

I agree with you, but looking at the comment section and video responses, I think people just don't get what kind of distinction you were trying to make. I got it, but a lot of people arguing as if you were trying to prove that demons aren't evil clearly didn't get it. I'm honestly not sure how they didn't get it, but maybe people just can't think straight when it comes to Frieren. Who knows.

[@TheSalsaGuy216]

It’s surely a fanboyism type of thing, where a criticism of a thing turns people into airheaded mouth breathers who act like it’s an attack on them.

[@PredatoryQQmber]

They got duped by Frieren''s terrible writing in the first place, so it's stand to reason to expect them fail at grasping any nuance.

[@NevisYsbryd]

​@@PredatoryQQmber Something something it is easier to trick someone than to convince them they have been tricked.

[@TheCreaturegod]

As someone who enjoys the show due to the characters and smaller more insignificant parts of the journey not involving fighting, i did feel like the demon conflict was the weakest part and did not consider this dilemma until now and my conclusion is an oversight brought about by wanting a both intelligent species that is also pure evil. Maybe this says something about fantasies stories or about me but im more open to the idea of pure evil in those settings than in others and look more towards other elements of the work to not take for granted. I think you definitely pointed out an aspect that i didn’t consider on why that conflict didn’t feel as compelling as the other in the story. Note* skipped the middle section because im anime only and keep up the good work❤

[@hang_kentang6709]

Demons view us the same way we view our prey. We have empathy (most of us usually), we care for one another, we are willing to go into harm's way for our kin, but to those sweet, delicious, chickens we are probably monsters. In Frieren, we are the chickens.

[@Lextorias]

1. demons do not kill solely for food. frieren confirms this 2. lions and tigers and sharks prey on humans all the time. I do not think eradicating them is morally good either 3. you cannot compare demons to animals when they are intelligent, capable of human morality, and several of them have stated they wish to coexist. demons have all the components necessary to choose not to hunt. humans choose not to eat meat all the time. wild beasts are not capable of this if the demons are truly incapable of not hunting humans, that is still in direct contradiction with the story giving them higher consciousness, and it is in direct contradiction with the themes of the story being about overcoming your nature to empathize with others

[@ChivalrousyWalrusy]

​@@Lextorias ah yes, the demons that lie repeatedly also claim to want to coexist...

[@Lextorias]

we literally see their inner thoughts and memories. frieren herself acknowledges that their desire for coexistence is genuine. be serious

[@BrainZehng]

@@Lextorias Not all demons have a desire for coexistence, in the manga it was specifically only Macht and the Demon Lord who tried to reach towards coexistence.

[@OleksandrSlepnov]

@@Lextorias i'm not as into frieren as you are obv but can you point me when does frieren acknowledge that demon's desire for coexistence is genuine?

[@PassiveAssassin]

I actually had the same assumption you did about the demon stuff. Full on expected it would play a part with the other elf that offered to train Fern. I've been off Anime for a bit but I was thinking it would be a season 2 thing.

[@sakugashoujo]

I’m just so happy to finally find someone else that feels this way about this show

[@fajarqolbinur]

just fyi demon in japanese is mazoku, which literal meaning is magic race also maou: magic king,majin: magic person,mamono: magic thing cmiiw

[@ricardoquintanilla8405]

"Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.” Applied to the dark corrupted beings in Tolkiens universe, applies here.

[@Kraigenerus]

Welp i disagree with a lot in the video really, still a good one. Liked the tolkien angle and the watsonian vs doylist comparison.

[@shiwakao]

i remember when i first started reading it, the demons felt out of place. i thought at first they were going to be a vehicle for themes of racism bc it would've been well w the other themes, but i was disappointed w how they ended up being handled. i love frieren still n hold it in high regard, but i can never shake that missed opportunity. in the regards to part 3, it'll never not be both simultaneously funny n sad how many ppl on the internet will just take a story at face value, instead of practicing actual media literacy.

[@2019m-z8i]

Your videos are always thought-provoking! First of all, like others have said, sending threats or hate over a fictional story is wrong, no one should do that. As a fan of Frieren, I really dislike those fans who pour hate on good-faith criticism. So, sorry about that. Secondly, as you’ve said, the story is still on-going, and it seems like we have a ways to go, so we’ll have to wait and see what other revelations are thrown our way. Thirdly, I think a main difference between Tolkien’s orcs and Frieren’s demons (based on the info that we have now), is that Tolkien’s orcs were created, not evolved. Regardless of how exactly the orcs came to be, as you’ve said, they were created beings with souls, and therefore could not be irredeemable. However, if Frieren’s demons (within the context of Frieren’s world) evolved and were not created, then they might not have souls, and that is a pretty fundamental difference with Tolkien’s orcs, so I do think that Frieren’s demons aren’t simply a rehash of Tolkien’s orcs. The “goddess” of Frieren’s world is also an ongoing mystery, so there may be a lot more to uncover, there. Fourthly, I do think that there is still an interesting moral question in Frieren, even in just the material that we’ve seen so far, which I actually haven’t seen explored very much in much media (although perhaps it’s just in something that I haven’t read before). Perhaps the story itself has until now dismissed the question, or settled it too easily, but the question still might remain for some readers, such as you, or me. If empathy between mankind and demonkind is still technically possible, in that it would require much bloodshed (a lot of bloodshed), and sweat and tears and so on, to save only the few demons who are even willing to make the effort to understand mankind’s morality and emotions, is it worth it? How many human, dwarf, and elf lives would it take before you gave up and did what Frieren herself has decided is the only pragmatic course of action. I think it is an interesting question because most media nowadays has made reconciliation pretty easy, in my experience. A few speeches of togetherness and wholesomeness, maybe an exchange programme or two, and generations of issues are solved almost overnight. But what happens if reconciliation required far more sacrifices and hardship than a few speeches? What price are you willing to pay? Maybe it’s just me, maybe I’m reading too much into things, but I think that’s quite a unique moral dilemma to see in a story :) Just my two cents, hope you let me know what you think!

[@aloisweber4684]

(I want to say this is all in good argumentative fun, I only mean this as my own musings on the video) Inspired by the video, and to attempt a Doylist interpretation of the reaction you received when questioning Frieren's demons, I posit this: People seem tired of assessing and re-assessing their own thoughts and views of various concepts in regards to the broader social context. Some, or many, seem ready and willing to have something simple and explainable at face value, that requires no further thought. At the same time, those people seem exhausted by the constant need to second guess themselves and their views of reality. I do not have proof that this is a wider problem, only feelings (and twitter posts). So, since this sounds like a personal struggle, I'll just make it personal from here on out. Relate to it as you will. I was ready to accept the demons of Frieren were uncomplicated monsters. Full stop, I was just willing to do that. Every time I heard someone say otherwise, I got this weird hangup on it like 'why does this need to be so complicated? Sometimes writers can't think of everything. Sometimes they make mistakes they need to write around.'. Which is true, but maybe not a good criticism(?). So I come to my point: I WANTED the demons to not be subversive/reverse-subversive. I wanted them to be as the text said, evil, because something about that fact... did something for me. It settled the question in my mind so I could continue enjoying the thing I enjoy. I fear that reaction is because I'm a simple person who only wants basic simple things. I hope not. What I can say is I feel tired when I see a thing, an idea or otherwise, and my instant reaction is that I need to reconsider it at least two or three different ways, because I haven't gotten the "RIGHT" take. The whole exercise becomes exhausting, especially if you think there are NO true right answers, so the practice becomes chasing someone else's tail in a circle of argumentation and futility. As someone who enjoys thinking my way around these things, the feeling that I NEED to do it for EVERYTHING is exhausting. I want some things to be simple. I want some things to not be argued. Having said all that, it is the right of every other person to do that as they wish, to argue how and what they please. It is the spice of life, I respect it. Cheers, loved the video, you do great work Lex!

[@ToadInTheHoleYT]

ive read thousands of manga, and i think about these sort of random controversies all the time lol. personally my favorite shower thought character is yogiri from instant death with his "end all be all" ability and how you could possibly kill him

[@nerds-nonsense]

This is an excellent video, really glad I waited to watch it so I could give it the proper attention it deserves.

[@sgappi8801]

I agree with the fact that the simple truth of demons speaking to each other and some points in this video show demons clearly can think and have a sense of morality, and i agree there are inconsistencies in the demons saying they only speak to trick people then actually wanting to learn doesnt make much sense, however i always interpreted the story and everything about their morals as what frieren knows and her perspective, not the objective truth. They clearly care about each other and the whole point of this story is to have frieren grow because she is not perfect and she is currently struggling with emotions and fitting in with people. Maybe im looking at this wrong somehow but this felt like a long video of watching you say that a character who needs to grow and is broken from being raised as a weapon out for revenge wants to kill a species of so far evil beings when she has only seen their battle lines and demons looking for humans to kill, on a large continent when current demon society clearly favors the best human killers. Also there is a big plot point you mentioned of the demon king so i interpreted all of your problems with the show as my literal reason for watching it to find out how the demons and their leader work or if they are pure evil regardless of seemingly having wills how that works too, along with seeing frieren change and learn. I normally love your videos but i disagreed with a lot on here, still sending death threats over a comment about a show is crazy and unacceptable, sorry that happened to you

[@dontsubcribedontlike673]

"the story and everything about their morals as what frieren knows and her perspective, not the objective truth." This is what I hoped too, until it's revealed by "what is a father" that the writing of the show itself agrees with Frieren. That line was a reveal to the audience, the reader, us. It's the story's way of saying _Frieren is right_ even if the author has a change of heart in 200 chapters and decides to write a new arc in.

[@ShadowCrap13]

As being someone who only watched the anime, I also pondered about the demons. Mostly about the backstory with the demon child killing the mayor and offering their child to replace the one she killed earlier. What bugged me about it is that why would a demon do this kind of action to self-preserve? The demon could have just played along until the adventures left town, and then killed everyone. Instead we have a demon who thought they could reconcile their actions by just offering a new child to replace the one she killed. She was able to put thought into how to correct an action that others told her was wrong. Maybe the demon did do it for self-preservation, so people wouldn't have the "look of wanting her dead" in their eyes. But why would she care about that with a human who isnt a threat to her? The threat to her was the adventurers. Either way, Im excited to see more exploration of the nature of demons. Oh, and another mention was that Demon general that was sealed for 80 years. Why would he say that he'll avenge the demon king? Did he actually care about the demon king, or just saying that in some way to try and intimidate Frieren?

[@thinhvcoin]

Ok, I hate writing long comment so I try to make it short Flamme definition of demons are beasts capable of speech - They say things they can't comprehend, knowing it will save their life - They most likely do things they can't comprehend, trying to save their life, or lower the hatred of people village. What people who have problem with the writing of demons in Frieren don't seem to understand is demons are not like human. The way you argue for the Demons does not show the understanding of them but does show how you - a human, would act in their position. And I think that is kinda the point and why you or me couldn't write like this.

[@riastradh]

Because killing and human life means absolutely nothing to the vast majority of demons. They learn to fake empathy and human reasoning but they don’t get it. The demon child likely didn’t have time to get it right and went “they hate me for taking their daughter, so I’ll give them this one. All it will take is a body”

[@moose9949]

I am more interested in understanding why sentience equals not evil? Even if they can reason, this does not necessarily lead to the existence of a soul in demons. Your point about the Mana in particular as a "moral system" does not convince me. At its bare parts, most animals tend to live on strength. The concept of a pack leader for example. Obviously, there is no evidence that they get angry for betraying this system, but even still the demons don't argue this from a moral standpoint. They're angry at losing, and insult as one last attempt to inflict damage.

[@0ff0667]

Yeah, it never sit well with me to think that Demons aren't capable of emotions when they're clearly to be able to do so. They are called "prideful" mutilple times which is a human a emotion. Its an inconsistency the author hasn't really addressed and just keeps building up on that inconsistency.

[@x5132]

It wouldn't surprise me if they later show how the only emotions they feel come from sins.

[@wafoofi1244]

Yooo from 2:15 to 4:21 shout out to you for using the Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix Ost Sexy Trunks!, or Balrogs theme 😂 it made my head snap right quick and start jamming to such a classic. Thanks and stay cultured my friend 😊Great video by the way💪

[@theuzi8516]

Having not watched the show, I decided to wait for response vids to this to see what the more mainstream fans say about it and my main takeaway is that people really don't know how to separate necessity from morality: The main counterpoint I see to this vid is basically that literally all demons want to kill us all and so, in our own interest of survival, we are justified in killing them, which is funny because this would actually make the demons moral from their perspective, too lol yet I don't see anyone really making this distinction between "it's just a fight for survival" and "humans are in the right for killing demons" despite (some) acknowledging that demons are moral but just misanthropically if they are indeed sapient. I guess a show I'd find more interesting would be aware of this and focus on whether it's really moral and not just pragmatically necessary for us to eradicate a species just because it seems to want to do the same to us (which can lead to questions of whether it's better to let them freely choose or force them to adopt ways we approve of and call it "education") but Frieren seems to want to be an easy read/watch.

[@petermuller9480]

Most people, INCLUDING Lextorias, are interpreting way too deep themes into the story, ones it simply doesn't even properly portray and/or deal with. As someone who has read the entire manga (unlike 99% of the clowns attacking Lextorias!), I can tell you, that Frieren doesn't even understand what it is doing.....at all. In the Eldorado Arc it CLEARLY sets up a subversion of expectations concerning the notion of what we were lead to believe about the demons in this world (e.g.: flashbacks showing a demon in moral quandary about killing someone; A demon GENERAL actually trying to understand humans and wanting to coexist with them, etc.). Then the story just throws all of this new information in the garbage and tells us, "Nope, humans and demons BY NATURE just can't coexit. The end!" That's the essence of what happens in the arc (even if I oversimplified it a little for brevity's sake). All the other themes and ideas of the story are handled in exactly the same way. The themes of (im)mortality and loss are dropped after the first 10 chapters; the characters' arcs (with narrative "wants and needs") are set up but up to the most current point (ch. 140) are left untouched (or in other words: there is no character developement, it only is teased at best). Heck, even Frierens supposed melancholy over Himmels death is COMPLETLY and CONCLUSIVELY dropped from the story in the time travel arc!!!!! (Why did the author even present it as the main theme in the beginning of the story then, and why did he give us all those endless, boring flashbacks to Himmel, when they didn't amount to A SINGLE THING in the end? GEEZ, this story is poorly written!) You can tell, that I am not a fan of this story. If people had ANY form of media literacy, they would understand my opinion and share it. Setting up things, only to do nothing with them in your story, is not good writing advice; it's a recipe for disaster. I am eagerly awaiting the absolute meltdown of the fandom when season 2 drops.....

[@PredatoryQQmber]

@@petermuller9480 I haven't read the manga but got a sense for this from the beginning of anime. Even the premise of her journey makes no sense and immediately contradicts itself: she portrayed as some ancient being that been-there-done-that but then it almost immediately revealed that she's actually a lazy hermit who has almost no social experience. Meaning that it was her first experience being close with a group of humans, yet she's more apathetic to them than the demons. And this is our race-judging protagonist? The author clearly wanted to only make emotional vibes without any sense.

[@petermuller9480]

@@PredatoryQQmber Yup. The author CLEARLY has no clue what he is doing. NONE of the plot elements he introduces are handled correctly, which is an astounding achievement in my opinion. I have read and watched many, MANY manga/anime and I've always managed to find redeeming qualities. (e.g.: I actually liked Fairy Tail, depite its countless flaws!). But not so with this story. I could make you a list of all the things, that don't make sense in this story or that contradict with other elements in the story, but that list would be HUGE and I frankly have better things to do. Frieren is just an utter waste of time! Don't read it! Everything it sets up is completely mishandled in the narrative and/or gets eventually dropped. The fact, that THIS story, a story that is so mindnumbingly slow and unbelievably boring, got the highest rating on MAL, is just unfathomable to me. I know, that Gigguk made a video praising the story one year before the anime came out; however, this doesn't explain the insane success of this - and I'm sorry for repeating myself - UNBELIEVABLY BORING story. Why would anyone watch this? You can try to explain it with hype, but this amount of hype and this amount of delusion of a fanbase in regards to a very poorly written, boring, uninteresting story, is unprecedented. I have never seen anything like this in anime, and I am 30 years old! I am old enough to remember when Dragonball was airing on TV (and also watched it ^^). And don't get my wrong, I like action in shows, but I don't need action all the time. My favourite anime of all time is Death Note, a story that ISN'T about battles, at least not in the conventional sense. But Frieren actually is about battles! It just masquerades as something else for a substantial length of the manga/anime, only to NOT do anything with the """"deep themes""""" it set up at the beginning and then drop them around chapter 100 or so. MENTAL! Why would the author write it like this, instead of just communicating to his audience, that the story actually is a shounen and not.....whatever it pretended to be at the beginning.

[@nillk2168]

about ovepowered frieren, i notice that that anime have party of warrior, priest and duno who hero is, but in the end it show how ridiculously overpowered mages are that raise a question: how this world manage to produce someone beside mages. From license arc it was shown how many different specialists they have and this thing has been going on for thousands years or maybe even more than that, story didnt mention how old this second oldest elf is

[@MrLuzakman]

Priests are explained in Sein's arc. Basically they are specialists on Goddess's magic who can do a lot of things which would be impossible or really hard for regular magic. Warriors are pretty easy: they are for when you need to get physical. I suppose it's like DnD, where mages can get super OP but still often require someone to hold the frontline, not to count the situations of magic resistant enemies, like a dragon which Stark fights at the beginning.

[@kleshnekrab]

We all already went through that dilemma a lot with vampires as beings that are intelligent and capable of reason but still have it in their nature to harm humans, why are we doing this again

[@Lextorias]

it being a problem that affects other stories does not mean it’s no longer a problem

[@keiyangoshin3650]

I’ve heard of this anime it but I’ve never seen it myself. 🤔 Not my cup of tea. 😊 But interesting theory. For me it’s straightforward. They’re all evil. What degree of evil depends on how much killing they do. Simplistic perhaps, but we all have our beliefs. See you on the next one Lextorias. 👍

[@empyu6387]

There’s a lot to think about with the points you bring up but that would take too long. I do want to address one point though. When you say “the story” is telling us all demons are evil, are you using that as shorthand for Frieren as a character saying that? A lot of the screenshots you showed were specifically from her point of view. And at one point you mention that Frieren is portrayed as an overpowered character who is always right. But I disagree with that characterization of her. She’s powerful, but she’s also just now learning what it means to live in the world she finds herself in. I don’t think she’s meant to be the moral center of the story. The fact that her home was destroyed by demons makes her even more unreliable in that aspect because she would have a clear bias. I would need to see more of the story to make a solid conclusion, but I don’t think she’s specifically hunting demons. It’s more like she’s saving human lives.

[@Lextorias]

the story doesn't have any absolute moral standard, beyond what the protagonists and the main characters believe in and the story passively agrees with by following them. so the characters are the only ones who can call the demons "evil", since evil is not an objective measurement. though several characters besides Frieren do call the demons evil, the demons agree with how other people assess them, and nothing in the story (purposefully) contradicts this

[@empyu6387]

There’s a common anime trope where the series will lie to the watchers in order to challenge the main characters’ beliefs. They’ll reveal a truth meant to counter them for conflict. However minor, there are still glimpses of that here. It’s too early to say whether or not the series will follow through with that though. But that’s mainly why I was concerned with the idea of Frieren being a protagonist who is always right. She may be the moral center of the story right now, but it’s clear the world wants to challenge that. I can’t say for sure if she’s supposed to be right or wrong though.

[@EndermanBoss]

A lot more interesting that I thought it would be. I thought the debate was pretty cut and dry, but now that you clearly point out the discrepancies and further expand on the dilemma of having an "evil" race i can now see what you mean.