The Most Decorated Air Crew of WW2 - Fat Electrician Reaction

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

Since people keep commenting about Japanese radar. No, they didn't have it on the scale the allies did, but they absolutely had it. Their first ground-based radar positions were installed in March 1942 and could detect an aircraft formation at 250km away. They also made heavy use of air-based radar. The mission in April 1943 to kill Admiral Yamamoto had to fly very low and take a route that went 200 miles out of their way in order to avoid Japanese radar detection. So yes, they had it.

[@janehrahan5116]

Hey, I could have sworn you did reactions to "tik history" but I couldn't find them anywhere, though the bulk of his content is long battlestorm series he does have broader ww2 videos. A couple id reccomend are. 1. The main reason germany lost ww2. 2. 6th army's rations at stalingrad. There are some others like a 3 part logistics series, or a couple of not see ideology videos (the reason they started ww2/declared war on the us), but those two are good starts.

[@adarkwind4712]

So I get where you're coming from about disobeying orders. However, the second time around, it bothers me less what they did as I agree with TFE it sounds like they were trying to get them killed. Moreover, if that was genuinely a target that you wanted/needed destroyed and the crew went rogue logically, you would send a different crew. I understand the necessity for following orders. However, when those orders almost certainly needlessly demand the lives of those fulfilling them, I tend to look on that less favorably.

[@ywe3]

Calling what the Japanese had "Radar" is like comparing a CRT TV to a modern 8k television. Yes it could [in theory] find a target but the Japanese higher-ups disregarded it or left it off 90% of the time. Now over this particular target I can almost guarantee there was no radar because they were essentially in a bowl so the only thing radar would see is what is in said bowl...this is why they were able to do it twice...and also a perfect example of Japanese ineptitude at this point in the war.

[@toddhutchins2492]

@@adarkwind4712 Also, I believe that INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians is an unlawful order, if not illegal.

[@svenrio8521]

​@@toddhutchins2492There's no such thing as a civilian in total war.

[@the_fat_electrician]

Great review! Apparently when I’m excited i forget the difference between “fatally wounded” and “mortally wounded”. I appreciate the support glad you liked the video

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

You’re a fantastic storyteller and helping people learn stories they might not have otherwise heard. Keep up the great work.

[@ywe3]

​@VloggingThroughHistory if i may sir i might offer a different perspective on why disobeying orders MIGHT be justified. 1. Killing civilians as a DIRECT result [i.e. they are targeted directly and knowingly] think of the Nazi guards in the concentration camps their biggest defense was "I was following orders". Didnt work for them, so if we're using the same logic its hypocritical and a "rules for thee, not for me" situation. 2. When targets of opportunity present themselves. The ammo and fuel depot basically kept the IJN out of the fight for literally MONTHS when Yamamoto was replaced in days...this is theory: kill a man lose a man [takes 1 soldier to recover the dead], wound a man take a squad [takes upwards of 3 men to recover 1 wounded man saving private ryan exemplifies this perfectly sniper killed 2 before being killed by wounding the vin diesel]. 3. Its part of thebdoctrine of US military to ALWAYS question orders when you're confused or notice something's off [this dates back to ancient rome as the general merely planned whereas the centuries had the flexibility to throw thag plan out this is a major reason why rome was so successful early on, flexibility.

[@Corsair37]

@@ywe3 As I undertand the situation in this incident, the targets were high level commanders of Imperial Japan. In that situation, the civilians would be collateral, but the gain to the Allied side would be considered "proportional" to the loss on the civilian side. The Nazi guards were a different situation. There was no military advantage to be gained in killing civilians in the concentration camps.

[@ywe3]

@Corsair37 it's the same difference...example fire bombing of dresden...or the terror bombing of Spain...both intentionally targeted civilians but because Britain won it wasn't a war crime...

[@ywe3]

@Corsair37 also if you kill the supplies what good are the ships? Either target is viable but only 1 is moral. At least imo.

[@Corsair37]

"Strategically transfers euipment to an altnerate storage location" had me laughing so hard. Reminded me of my first ship in the Navy - I was a wet-behind-the-ears Ensign in the Supply Corps, fairly newly reported to my ship. One night the Captain joined us in the wardroom for dinner (we were in port, and since it was a cruiser the Captain had his own dining facility), and he was drinking coffee. He stopped, took a long look at his mug (which had the ship's seal and C.O. emblazoned on it), then looked me in the eye, quite sternly. He said, "Chop, this looks like the mug in my wardroom. Did you steal this?" After a few seonds (that seemed like an eternity), I replied "Sir, as one of your supply officers, I may acquire, come into posession of, or otherwise obtain the items needed to complete any assigned mission. But I would never, ever steal." The Captain broke into a wide grin at which point I knew he had only been pulling my leg. One of the greatest leaders I ever had the honor to serve under.

[@TheEclipse420]

Thank you for sharing this. It was a very well articulated comment.

[@FATMAN_tactical]

On the tracer heavy ammo possible lack of damage, with the zero being so unarmored and flammable i bet the tracers would have a good chance to set it on fire. Plus your still poking half inch holes in them.

[@HbEthan.]

Like the chieftain says it's a psychological attack.The wall of red is ment to be more as a deterent but yeah the zero being a flying jerry can made it easier.

[@raikbarczynski6582]

depends on what they used. normal tracers your right but if they had access to the M20 APIT rounds thats a different story

[@ywe3]

API and APIT and APHE all existed for the .50BMG...

[@oldeskul]

Also the Japanese planes didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks, so if a tracer round punched through a fuel tank or whizzed past a tank that was leaking fuel, the plane would catch fire.

[@kennymccormick9973]

"The other guys like Sergeant Sullivan, Miller and myself, we're known as the old breed. Old, we're not even out of our 20s....."

[@oasis1282]

The Old Breed is a good book. And so is Call of duty world at war.

[@paulthedipshit]

first thing i thought of when they started talking about age

[@philpocalypse6322]

As a veteran I can say with absolute confidence that the chain of command is most often so disconnected and egotistical that they have no clue what's really happening in the field. I would then and now trust the guidance of my peers in a conflict significantly more than any order from my chain of command. Disciplinary action be dammed.

[@robashley8216]

Vet here as well, can confirm

[@bakerfresh]

Ou ever seen the movie "Outpost"...Netflix. During Afghanistan.

[@toddhutchins2492]

agreed. I think it's a little different for the Navy, though. That being said, I've seen some weird s**t from the CO of my ship.

[@ocfyrefyghter]

100%. Officers who never went on a mission getting bronze stars while the recovery guys pulling MRAPS out of canals outside the wire got end of deployment awards.

[@lovelyhatter]

22:50 Japan at the time didn't have Radar and when they did have it it was nowhere near the level of the Allies. They did have plane spotters but really they didn't get much warning if any for bombings.

[@jonadabtheunsightly]

Japan didn't have radar-directed fire control; the US Navy did, the Imperial Japanese navy did not, and that was a big deal. But Japan did have radar for detection of enemy planes, starting in 1941. They didn't have as much experience with it as the European powers, or as many stations, and it wasn't as good, and it was less portable (e.g., I don't think they had it in planes yet), and there were other limitations; but they did have radar.

[@pokeng]

@@jonadabtheunsightlywhat, radar from wish?

[@jonadabtheunsightly]

@@pokeng Exactly the opposite, honestly. This wasn't a cheap product produced for pennies when the technology was mature. It was cutting edge stuff, but what the enemy had was already better, because the enemy was more technologically advanced. The J-20 is a contemporary military-hardware example of essentially the same phenomenon.

[@mobiuscoreindustries]

​@jonadabtheunsightly also there was just a question of training, manufacturing and ideology all combining into the Japanese lack of radar. First was simply that Japan didn't have the background in the development of the first radars and thus their first prototypes would likely have been of lower quality which would factor into their evaluation. Then there was the fact that when you do not have a lot of pooled knowledge you aren't going to know how to work off its quirks. Early radar was prone to be affected by everything. Terrain, weather. Even some wave patterns. And even actual returns would be patchy at best. Only a skilled operator would be able to decrypt the raw radar picture and deduce from it actionable Intel. Therefore the effectiveness of the radar would be tied to how good it's operator and chain of command were at actually leveraging their tech. And finally there simply was the ideological struggle that the admiralty did not think radar was going to be important. After all their core philosophy of decisive battle called for a single great action to take control of the sea. That basically implied you would not need to find the enemy because both fleets would reasonably have known of each other due to their net of screening elements. And once you win at the sea supposedly you were winning the war. On top of that likely due to the lost performance from materiel and training, likely tests of its effectiveness in stuff like night fighting would have been considered superfluous.

[@ryanmendels6548]

I love the fat electrician and I love VTH. The historical accuracy from VTH and the honest get militaristic view that TFE gives may be most accurate view of American history that the world has ever seen.

[@silviomorales6523]

Bro I feel you on him disobeying orders and the mixed feelings it gives you, this guys a loose cannon. But at the same time….thats a typical american story, somebody taking matters into their own hands and doing something really crazy but heroic. Half of Teddy Roosevelts stories are like this, lol his charge on san juan hill is lunacy, but damn its glorious.

[@ozarkscarguy540]

I love that you looked up the story and added to it. Fat Electrician gives out fantastic information but he is an entertainer. He can't include every single detail or it could get boring.

[@Byepolarchaos]

My father-in-law was a dive bomber in the Pacific theater, and there’s other parts of the story. You’ll never hear he flew his plane recklessly even when he was supposed to be in formation, I went back into the military for the first golf war in honor of my father-in-law I served two years in Germany, but was seriously hurt and had to leave when I marry his daughter. Well I had to go and do the right thing.

[@cjgonz2004]

The thing about the following of orders, is that it's not as simple they make it out in boot camp or Officer training (be it ROTC, OCS, or whatever else.). The military command (in the US at least) has to be able to justify their orders with military objectives. There are rules of war to follow, and military necessity CAN override orders in many cases. (You'd just better be ready to prove it before an investigator or commission!!!) Also, there is the Code of Conduct. In the US military, you CAN use the Code of Conduct as a defense in a court-martial (again, good luck! But it CAN be done). While yes, not following orders can get you in trouble (and should ALWAYS get you investigated to see if you were just being stupid) - and yes, rules are there for a reason (plenty of wannabe heroes could just get killed), the truth is FAR more complex, and nuanced in reality.

[@BuckeyeNut123]

Commander's Discretion

[@jaydeleon8094]

of course, killing civilians was not a war crime till after this war. so other than civilians and politicians hearing about it, you would have no defense other than "I hit a more important target"

[@supremecaffeine2633]

​@@jaydeleon8094 Even in modern times, it still wouldn't be a war crime.

[@jaydeleon8094]

@@supremecaffeine2633 Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions prohibits "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment, and torture" when perpetrated against persons "taking no active part in the hostilities."

[@supremecaffeine2633]

@@jaydeleon8094 I suggest you read the full article. Section 3 is in regards to conflicts not of an international nature. You also butchered it.

[@CSharpMajor]

This is slowly turning into my favorite story out of the Pacific side of WW2. Partially because of how FE presents it, but the valor and resilience of the Eager Beavers should not be overlooked

[@videogenics86]

Nor should the fact that they were violating military discipline six ways from Sunday. Having ONE crew like this is survivable , but if multiple crews start emulating them... chaos.

[@m2hmghb]

"Break glass in case of war" @@videogenics86

[@Shalltear773]

@@videogenics86 even if they were violating military discipline, they were proving to be far more effective than their leaders were wanting them to be by acting on their morals. I agree that having multiple crews as rebellious as them would be dangerous but I think it would be less so if those same crews were like the Eager Beavers: always getting the job done or managing to do better while ultimately remaining loyal.

[@JohnReedy07163]

Bombing a hotel that may or may not have the military high command there is not a good order. Hitting actual military targets and destroying them is much more useful than destroying a hotel. You can replace Admirals and Generals, you can't replace Japanese oil I'm normally a follow the rules guy, but if you wanted that done, you send multiple crews and you change up the lead bomber. I don't blame Joe for doing what he did, i also don't blame command, I blame the war.

[@SKPanda1915]

Yes fuel and ammo are absolutely vital targets, the Japanese not hitting the fuel reserve at Pearl was super important. Now, if you eliminate Yamamoto and 1/5 of the Top naval officers, you can't replace that easily. IMO, the lack of leadership and experienced soldiers was the fall of the Japanese navy.

[@JohnReedy07163]

@edwardbrennan7825 The US destroying the fleet at Midway hurt the IJN more than the loss of the commanders, they were put on the back foot from that point on. Hurting their stockpiles and then convincing their public that holding out and fighting wasn't worth it is why they surrendered. Japan wouldn't have started the war with the US if it wasn't about the oil, taking that away did them in.

[@SKPanda1915]

@@JohnReedy07163 its kinda silly to debate because we know the Japanese fight for another 2 yrs (give or take), we also know the Yamamoto being taken off the board (few months later) had little impact. Hell firebombing Tokyo didn't even stop them.

[@SKPanda1915]

@@JohnReedy07163 Midway happened a yr before, Navy was not crippled. The Japanese took the Dutch East Indies early on and had the resources to fuel their war campaign. Resources??? They lost the resources after the Marines took back the Pacific, which could have been easier if the navy leadership was compromised.

[@BuckeyeNut123]

Commander's Discretion

[@steveclarke6257]

I think the quotation from the Crimean war is apt here, "its is magnificent, but it isnt war". War is about a coordinated effort to achieve a goal, and yes doing stupid stuff to achieve a goal is sensibly heroic, im not sure that these guys were sensible but their again neither were the command staff in charge.

[@theroachden6195]

Jay's wounds would've been fatal had not received medical attention when he did. I think that's what FE is saying.

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

That would be true for most serious wounds. I've just never heard anyone refer to a wound as "fatal" unless the person actually died.

[@AdamNisbett]

⁠FE probably just mixed up the terms “fatal” and “mortal”. A “mortal wound” is indeed one that’s severely life threatening, but doesn’t specify whether it actually resulted in death.

[@xbreachedthetosx7591]

@@VloggingThroughHistoryI would assume he used it as a story-telling tool for effect. “Fatally wounded”, upon landing the medics saying to, “Leave the pilot for last he’s already dead.”… thankfully he woke up in the hospital a few days later. I see it as a story-telling tool for dramatic effect.

[@Karle94]

The thing with the Japanese, certainly more so in 42 and 43 was that they did not have radar, so detecting a flight of B-17s could not be done that way.

[@Layer67]

As far I know the Japanese did possess, radar but it wasn’t advanced like the Allie’s and their German counterparts. But it’s weird that their navy didn’t implement radar on there carriers.

[@Karle94]

@@Layer67 They posessed the technology, but like so many things the Japanese developed during the war it did not get fielded till the very end, and most of it was saved for the mainland for the coming invasion, much like the Type 4 rifles, the Type 5, 6 and 7 medium tanks and some of the more advanced aircraft. By late 44-45 quite a few ships, even cruisers and destroyers had radar, but as you said they were not really that advanced, certainly by US and British standards.

[@Layer67]

@@Karle94 for sure! Cooperation is key for finding enemy targets the inter fighting between the Japanese army and the imperial navy hindered their effectiveness.

[@HbEthan.]

​@Daedalus94 arguably you could say even the Germans had better radar definitely better ground to air radar.

[@sicily7220]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@coachgoltzbizpro23]

Mentioning The Flight Of The Geishas, and how the Eager Beavers didnt want to kill innocent civilians, it reminds me of a quote from M.A.S.H. where one character debunks the "War Is Hell" line by making the note that while evil people land in hell, in war several innocent lives get caught in the crossfire, meaning War is actually worse than hell. Like you said in another video, civilians suffer quite often in war too, especially in WWI when you talked about the blockade around Germany, and of course, the Lusitania (Carrying weapons but I'm also guessing it carried civilians) and it is a horrible reality.

[@edwardsummey8843]

I think you would have a lot of fun with Drachnifel and his examination of the Mark 14 torpedo.

[@lordsylph414]

I was thinking the exact same thing lol

[@J_Halcyon]

Or the Second Pacific Squadron

[@evanmetz1740]

I grew up about 15 minutes away from Culver Military Academy and worked there many summers in high school. It's a great school with an even better history of alumni including George Steinbrenner, Roger Penske, Herbert Sobel, Bud Adams, Lamar Hunt, many NHL players, and even Dierks Bentley.

[@veljkozivotic9698]

Hi! You should do a video about most decorated woman in history, Milunka Savić.

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

LADY OF THE DARK by Sabaton - the History Behind the Song kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJyooImJasRoj8U

[@samjaffe9411]

This needs to be a movie

[@truckersmiky]

First time I heard this story was on a history Channel show called Dogfights The episode was called long odds. Includes the co-pilot talking about the mission and and recordings Jay Zemmer in the 90s before he died.

[@dannydement]

Ahhh man, his videos are great. Not really family-friendly but a great storyteller.

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

Agree. He’s a great storyteller

[@ryanmontgomery3215]

I’m in military history, nerd, and from what I understand the fifth Air Force also had the most old-school type of leaders out of the major air forces in the United States during World War II, even though these were the younger generals and stuff

[@dessatt]

Vth you mentioned masters of the air so much through this, im literally going to look it up after i finish watching your reaction😂😂😂

[@mattsummers868]

the 1943 clark gable b-17 movie Command Decision shows the decisions related to commanding bombing operations prior to the invasion of normandy

[@84tand]

OCS, ROTC, West Point (and in rare cases direct commission) are still the three paths to a commission in today's Army as well. I earned my commission through a University ROTC program.

[@bgroovin1343]

In the infantry our squad leaders would load a magazine of only tracers so they could mark targets for their guys.

[@spacewolf1989]

You should checkout his Berlin Airlift video. For me as a german and my view and knowledge about the Airlift, it was very informative and entertaining. Like almost all of TFE videos. You call them "Candy Bomber" we call them "Rosinenbomber" which translate as raisins bombers.

[@raikbarczynski6582]

Biggest logistical flex ever. And IT somewhat cemented the friendship between Germany and the USA

[@thepenguinmafia]

You two are such a good combo. I loved the original, I loved the commentary. Keep up the great work!

[@Stale_Kracker]

Gotta risk it to get the buscut Jay-"we're having buscuts boys"....probably😂

[@TimeRift609]

About the natural talent vs hard work talking point towards the beginning of the video, my experience has been that it is much easier to put in hard work on something if you are pretty good at it to begin with. Being bad at something and trying to work through it is way more difficult because you have to content with the constant sting of failure as you start your venture.

[@jilge6133]

Working through the constant sting of failure is also a trait of successful people and can often lead to more learning.

[@gonnaenodaethat6198]

i think for a wound to be fatal it just has to be deadly on average, but an individual can still servive a fatal wound by some mericle

[@vincentbergman4451]

Another great reaction/ commentary Thank you for mentioning Dan Carlin in your OS Punic Wars reaction I’ve listened to his Punic Wars, USS Indianapolis, and now on his “Supernova in the East”

[@josephcason5039]

His videos are awesome even if he gets some of details mixed up or wrong. But awesome nonetheless. Just a couple of suggestions for your next review of some of his videos. McNasty or how Northrop Grumman designed and built the mail carrier for the post office. Love the channel keep up the good work

[@oldgus01]

Something I didn't think of until I clicked off... So the account of the Japanese contradicts the account of the survivors of Lucy. But this was after the Eager Beavers went World Star, so.... Instead of battle damage, couldn't we just, I dunno, play the tape?

[@bgroovin1343]

I saw a great video where they hiked into the jungle to see the Yamamoto plane. I'm sure there are several out there. It's worth watching.

[@timesthree5757]

Yea you can have people disobey like that. As a matter of fact this is the rebellious nature of Americans. Stubon the first Drill instructor for the US military noted that unlike Europe Americans don't just follow order. Stuben had to give indepth explanations as to why this order is given.

[@dp7933]

Eye sight is weird. I am required to wear glasses to drive, but I can see a camouflaged bird or five inch long camouflaged lizard 30 yards away... To the point that people witnessing it literally drop their jaws at what I have just done,but I can't drive to save my life. You see important things.

[@brucechmiel7964]

The footage that you saw with the CGI that was from a history channel episode of dog fights called mismatches of World War II, and they had an entire 25 minutes segment of a 42 minute episode dedicated to do this one mission.

[@grimalkin6676]

Of all the things I have ever seen about the story, I never really found an explanation as to how they actually lost weight for their plane despite all the new guns and the ammo for them. All I can think is they removed armor from places, and then the holes they cut into the plane somehow but I could never find it. And also as for the effectiveness, while tracers cannot penetrate as much armor as armor piercing rounds, this is the pacific, even some of the most heavily armored japanese planes, had extremely little armor that could (depending on angle) be penetrated by a tracer round and most were very flammable, tracers would actually be incredibly useful, cause the AP rounds make a hole in the fuel tank, tracer would ignite it.

[@toddmenard2330]

Why is this not a movie?! Holy cow, what a story!

[@cameronl1859]

49:28 if this is true, it might be the most impressive part of the story. Control with only differential thrust is nearly impossible, at least to a point where you can survive the crash landing. To do that while nearly dying, using half-broken 1940s technology, and four engines, is too incredible to believe.

[@kylegoodwin8673]

It's not great that they displayed orders. But: what makes the US military terrifying to both our enemies, and many of the allies I worked with, is the lowest units ability to adapt. A French NCO I got to chat with summed it up best. He said with most armies, you disrupt or take out the command structure, they'll hunker down and you can predict their actions. He said with the US, what makes them so hard to fight, is if you severe the command structure, the lower units just start exercising initiative. It's like shooting the only guy holding onto a pack of attack dogs. You don't know where they're going to go, you don't know who they're after, all you know is everyone is fair game and all your assets are in danger.

[@Byepolarchaos]

It sounds like the beginning of the C130 spooky

[@aturney0337]

My brother, just a master mechanic, was pulled out of class by his principle because he was having car troubles. In all these farm raised kids, my mostly city raised brother, been living out there for almost 4 years at this point, is selected for mechanical help. Either sophomore or junior year, don't remember. He rebuilt an '82 (maybe) CJ-5 from about 6 other CJ-5s for his "Senior" project.

[@waynec3563]

By the time the 100th Bombardment Group arrived in England, the 8th Air Force had been operating in the ETO for almost a year. Most of the raids for that year were shorter range missions over occupied countries, and could often be escorted by Spitfires, P-38s or P-47s, while the Luftwaffe defences were relatively light, as Germany were concentrating on the Eastern Front. The original tactic was for bomber crew to all bomb individually. They each had a Norden bomb sight to aim their bomb run. But, as you say, bombing this way allowed the anti-aircraft guns to refine their aim, and set their timed fuses. I believe it was Curtis LeMay who initiated the change in tactics to where only a few crews would have the Norden bomb sight and the bulk of the bombing formation would bomb on the leaders' cue. One of the Norden's downsides was that it needed a long, straight, level run up to the target.

[@David-jf3uf]

you help make history fun to learn thank you

[@MichaelW-vj6wx]

You absolutely have the right to disobey an immoral order. In fact it’s every military personnel’s duty to disobey any orders that illegal or immoral. It’s pretty clear this dude never served a day in his life.

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

My point is that in the context of WW2 that was not an immoral order. It was pretty much standard practice on both sides.

[@MichaelW-vj6wx]

@@VloggingThroughHistory killing innocent women and children has been an immoral order since the beginning of time.

[@FrogmanAnime]

Hi VTH, glad you have reacted to this one, it’s possibly my favourite video from TFE. Also I think you are one of the only reaction channels that I follow that has reacted to it. I know of 1 or 2 channels who are going to react to it but haven’t yet. I have enjoyed your content and look forward to any future reactions you do.

[@danpatterson8009]

Dropping 15,000 feet in 30 seconds is 340 mph straight down, plus any forward speed they might have had. Wikipedia lists max speed for a B-17 as 287 mph. Not sure the wings would stay on at 340+.

[@GrimdarkCrusader20th]

The airframe was hanging on for dear life. I wouldn't be shocked that if when the plane landed it wouldn't be able to takeoff again, it's a miracle he was able to land it to begin with.

[@Ჽum]

6:57 Still is, eyesight is one of the biggest limitations for most people who want to become pilots. Luckily they're somewhat looser on their corrective requirements, but the list of preexisting conditions that prevent you from becoming a military pilot has grown massively.

[@halhala2]

Insubordination in military operations is bad, no question. And I could see an argument for bumping the Beavers down after their "ground strafe" incident. But I could not possibly disagree more about the Flight of the Geishas. There is a vast difference between attacking a military target and incurring civilian casualties by sheer principle of collateral damage--and knowingly and willfully bombing a civilian location with the express purpose of killing everyone inside in the *hopes* of taking out a major military target in the process. Because remember, the big admiral they were after was only *rumored* to be visiting the officer's club. The latter is what we call a "big problem" for the same reason something like, say, drone striking a *wedding* is a "big problem." And yes, if they'd executed the mission as intended the first time, they might've annihilated most of the Japanese upper echelon in the region, but that second run would've been absolutely *useless.* After that first bomb dropped, I can't imagine more than a handful of officers attending that club, certainly not the big shots they were after. Pointless waste of life, both of the air crew if they got caught and the civilians on the ground. But all that's academic compared to the premise of the mission itself. There is a time and place to put aside moral concerns in the heat of battle for the sake of survival or mission completion. That's in the heat of battle, with the fog of war wreaking havoc. The Flight of the Geishas was a deliberate, premeditated strike that, as hindsight shows us, was ultimately unnecessary for victory. Moreover, if a single bombadier with a map could find not one, but *two* solely military targets of equal value in a single all-nighter apiece, I can't imagine there being a good excuse to opt for a civilian target instead. It is the constitutional right--and frankly responsibility--of every service member to disobey an illegal order. I know the Geneva Convention hadn't been established yet, but I can't imagine deliberate targeting of a civilian center would've been deemed legal if this operation was brought in front of Congress. Moreover, it's the *natural* right of every human being to disobey an order they find morally reprehensible--especially if they consider themselves Christian, like a lot of men in those days would've. How was it the Disciples put it? "We must obey God rather than men." As a pastor, I would hope you understand that doesn't stop being true when you put on a uniform.

[@unknownp1506]

Not sure how true it is, but coming from my mom who's a doctor, the cornea is technically a muscle, it's just really small and not that easy to just learn to control it, so he might not have been that far off with that method, but I dont think that the exercises that dude came up with would work

[@ghengriff3600]

As Captain Miller said in “Saving Private Ryan”; Our primary objective is Winning the War.

[@paznerkiller]

They also cut holes in the fuselage. Less metal means less weight, that's just math.

[@nicholasv1023]

Hi can you do a video about the battle of blair mountain. I feel that is was an extremely important event that almost no Americans know about. The events of ww1 definitely contributed to it happening in the first place.

[@jaydeleon8094]

36:50 these were the japanese, hardly any airframes, IF any, had armor or self-sealing fuel tanks. AP was generally useless, though that is with retrospect on all the airframes. and since there was no self-sealing tanks tracers would work just fine igniting them.

[@danielh9643]

Hi. As always, love your videos. Instead of just reacting to videos, you will always try to add your own knowledge and research to the subject matter. Shoutout to all the history channels that make history fun and entertaining. TFE videos are generally more entertaining than historically accurate, but if they could get more people interested in learning about history then that’s great. Hopefully, viewers will continue learning about this and go on to watch other channels that dive deeper into the subject matter. As a fan of history, VTH, TFE and many others, keep doing what you do! We all love history but few of us can call ourselves experts. All we can do is continue learning.

[@rarinrecruit3150]

One of the things not really mentioned in the video is the backstory of the B-17 “Old 666” itself. The story was something along the lines that it was repeatedly end up being “shot to hell” both literally and figuratively, yet somehow always managing to make it back or land. It would then get its reputation about how it’s cursed or something given how it has the number of the Devil. Sure enough, same thing happened with Jay and the Eager Beavers on that big mission. I personally believe that since the Germans feared the Americans from WW1 calling them “Devil Dogs”, they would’ve shit their pants if they came across Old 666 because it is a winged Devil.

[@TheMetalOK]

Lucky 666, indestructible, and race of aces are all great books about the air war in the pacific

[@mikepurvis4339]

The only thing I disagree with is by changing the ammo it would increase there hit percentage greatly.

[@stanjuan1178]

OK, So I'd like to make acounter point, to your point about "Following Orders". First, the question of following orders is DEEPLY in a grey zone area. There are of course examples of disobeying orders where it was clearly BAD. There is obvious and plain reasoning for following the chain of command. I'm not here to argue that disobeying orders in general is just the way things should be done. HOWEVER: Military history is REPLEATE with incompetent decision making on behalf of "The Brass". I'm going to lean a bit on Star Trek TNG here. I'm a MAJOR TNG fan, but it's not simply a love for the Sci Fi Content. Star Trek TNG primarily wasn't even about Sci Fi adventures. One of the main goals of the show was to give voice to discussions surrounding difficult grey topics. That's where the magic of TNG was. In many ways, TNG was chalked full of life lessons. Often, life lessons that cut across conventional ways of thinking. And one of those ideas was the fact that Star Fleet didn't want atomatons that would blindly follow orders. Recognizing a bad set of actions and moving to correct it, ESPECIALLY in the face of punative actions, would ultimatly be rewarded. Oddly, this whole "Rewarded" bit dosen't seem to work out well for anyone but the main heros/Actors. Still, there was a point being made. When does one question the orders of superior officiers? Especially in the direct aftermath of the fall of the 3rd reich, pretty much the entire German population was accused of turning a blind eye or even willingly supporting the Nazi regime. In RARE instances where people point out that disagreeing with the Nazi regime was effectivly a death sentence, the casual and not at all intelligent retort is almost always, "they had a choice, and they could have chose death". Within the Military ranks, in the general German army, every day german soldiers were expected to follow orders. They had no say. The fact that they were ultimatly fighting for a Regime that was commiting Genocide on a level unequaled in history, didn't seem to count for much. Your choices were, do as you're told, or be executed. What I'm trying to say is, it's extremly easy to say "You just can't have people who don't follow orders" for all of the obvious reasons; at the same time, you're taking away a persons ability to think for themselves. And being ordered to bomb a bunch of innocent woman for the sake of killing a handful of military targets is a pretty good example. A person is left NO ROOM for having a concience or a moral compass. You follow orders because the Military structure depends on it. In one breath, a person would immediatly voice the response that you voiced, where you just can't have people disobeying orders. In the next breath, they will condem Germans who blindly followed orders of the Nazi Regime. I'm sorry but you just can't have it both ways. It begs the question. When CAN a person apply checks and balances on "Authority"? Is there EVER a time? How many men were ground up in WW1 though frankly incomprehensable and disasterous battle actions? 10's of thousands of men in the Somme, who were repeatedly ordered to go over the top and attack rediculously defended positions across the open ground of no mans land, knew for a fact that the attack was hopeless long before the final order to attack was given. Many of the NCO's and regiment leadership knew this for a fact as well. They KNEW 10's of thousands of men would be slaugtered in the killing fields with virtually no hope of success. But they sent these men to their deaths anyhow. How about Picketts charge, where Long Street gives the final order to attack, knowing so fully and completly what the outcome would be, that he couldn't even bring himself to say the damn words, but simply nodded after pickett prodded him several times. I'm not offering answers, because this is such a deeply grey area. Every situation is unique and warrants it's own analysis. Was it the right call to disobey orders because the crew disagreed with the idea of slaughtering innocent civilians for the sake of taking out a handful of Japanese military brass? Are we honestly going to plaster over the murder of innocent people now by saying, well, that's just how war goes? These men saw an alternative and attacked targets of equal or arguably more strategic importance, and didn't have to murder innocent woman to do so. There is no "Talking" to the brass. There is no "Reasoning" with the brass. The flow of authority is a one way street. And FAR TOO OFTEN, the brass are happy to sacrifice the lives of the men they order into combat, and the lives of the innocent people those men may take. And the men being ordered have zero say in anything. At a surface level, it's obvious why soldiers must follow orders. But lets not pretend that following orders is cut and dry. If you make zero room for people to question authority, you end up with dictatorship. You end up with thousands of people being SENSELESSLY sacrificed. Imagine being a semi intellingent person and you are ordered to do something that will obviously cost you your life for very little return on that sacrifice. OH WELL! I guess that's just how the cookie cumbles. I'm sorry but I find it incomprehensible that so many have been brain washed into thinking this is acceptable. A person gets ONE go round on this blue marble. Officer Von Dipshit may not care about my life or the lives of innocent people, but I FREAKING DO, and I'm not following your orders. And if the alternative to disobeying a stupid order is a death sentence, than I don't see much incentive to volunteer for your military. There simply must be a middle position. And incidently, it's the middle position, the deeply grey areas, where TNG excelled. We don't have enough of THAT type of discussion. I'm deeply uninterested in whats obvious at the surface level. Choosing to look at everything in black and white terms is simply terrible.

[@CM-1723]

My eyes have got worse since wearing them more often , i just used them for driving and tv now i feel i need them all the time 😅

[@Shalltear773]

I understand the distaste for people who disobey orders but I can't say I like people who are under the impression you have to follow orders all of the time. if that crew hadn't done their strafing run then it's possible they would've lost some people. and bombing that club was not a guarantee to take out the admiral, especially not on that second run. removing an admiral is also not a guarantee to cripple the enemy but destroying vital supply facilities may do even more damage in the long run because you can't just promote or move someone else to replace a ruined building. not to mention that sort of thing is guaranteed to strain said leader's own capabilities anyways. do we need people who will blindly follow orders rather than being more effective than said orders allow? yes. but we also need people who are willing to disobey, so long as they consistently prove to be effective when doing so. edit: the problem is that not every rogue member or crew proves to be great at what they're trying to do and it can be incredibly difficult to find those who would be effective enough to "go rogue" and ensure an operation is either more successful than or just as successful as the operation should've been in the process. so maybe people should stop condemning the groups that are exceptional and instead use that rebellious nature for missions that would benefit from it, like that strafing run these guys did to help make sure the rest of their formation would get to go home. as for disobeying the bombing orders... that's on the higher ups for putting a crew with a reputation for following their own rules on the same task twice instead of getting another bomber crew to do the job. yes they willingly disobeyed but the brass should've already known better by this point.

[@c.hansen3139]

My grandfather was a tail Gunner on a b24 Liberator. He was, shall we say . . . Short. Hahaha

[@SKPanda1915]

Agree with your opinion about The Flight of the Geishas, it was great the targets he hit and lives he saved BUT you could wipe out a good chunk of Japans TOP naval officers if you hit the original target, which could have a greater impact.

[@philipcoggins9512]

The counter-argument to that is that there is actually a debate that taking out Yamamoto actually helped the Japanese war effort...

[@SKPanda1915]

@@philipcoggins9512 totally agree, taking out Yamamoto (a few months later) didn't end nor slow down the Pacific but the ammo and fuel had the same impact honestly. IMO the difference would depend on who else is in that house with Yamamoto. Its not just an "officers club" that's a high ranking club. That could be a lot of junior officers taking charge in important positions.

[@pickle4422]

Officers can lead ships, but the ships can’t fight a war without fuel or ammunition.

[@SKPanda1915]

@@pickle4422 thats absolutely true but we know they keep hopping islands and don't surrender for another 2 1/2 yrs. We don't know who or how many were in the house that was targeted but if inferior leadership replaces the top leaders or inexperienced, who knows the outcome. Does the US Navy have quicker success which leads to the marines have quicker and easier success reclaiming the Pacific? Unlike Germany, I don't think fuel was as much of an issue as long as they held certain locations.

[@JohnReedy07163]

@edwardbrennan7825 Yeah but what happens when you blow that building up and you missed all the targets? It was a foolish thing to order an attack on. Even more foolish was for US command to order the same plane and crew to do that twice when you know they aren't listening to the order.

[@TheMetalOK]

More firepower than any other aircraft in the pacific… Pappy Gunn has entered the chat

[@GaryCole-fv2gi]

Also I love our military. Just like me they wernt thear. You have nothing to apologize for don't ever do it. I might be useless but I love every one of you

[@ryanhamstra49]

I wore glasses through middle and high school, then quit after graduation. My eyes had gotten worse in high school, but I’m back to where I was in middle school after a few years of not wearing them. Not perfect but good enough I don’t need glasses other than things like reading the white board from the back of a room

[@Dannyedelman4231]

Tracers are just as deadly as normal bullets

[@tommcdonald1873]

The key thing that I find is that we have these guys who are a great crew. But they don't communicate to command, that they found a greater oppountity target that could save lives of our guys by having that target B. But they were only crew that could pull off that mission.

[@benjamies4136]

Ronaldinho is the best example. He's one of the most gifted soccer players but just didn't put in the work

[@brutusbuk]

Chris, you made a comment about how young the air crew looks in Master's of the Air. One thing I found interesting in contrast to this statement came from a documentary I recently watched on the making of Saving Private Ryan. I cannot provide the link, but I remember it was from one of the reputable historical channels, like your's, that I watch regularly. One of the topics that was broached, caught my attention. It was whether Tom Hanks was too old to play the part that he did. Spielberg noted that in looking through historical pictures taken of soldiers at the time, it appeared to him that the 18-20 year olds of that time just looked older and more mature than 18-20 year olds look today. Spielberg instructed his casting team to look for actors that had that authentic 1944 look of being old for their age and their more evident maturity level. When you made the comment that you did about Master's of the Air, it reminded me of Spielberg's impressions and how that informed his casting decisions.

[@janehrahan5116]

7:13 my favorite one is none other than Harry Truman. His eyes (left in particular) were so bad that he couldn't make any position. After failing the first time. He read the eye chart up close before leaving. He then took it again 6 months later. He had memorized the entire chart.

[@willemthijssen1082]

Mine is admiral Lee, whose classmates lined up their surnames in the order of the letters of the chart so he could take the test without his glasses.

[@waynec3563]

He says they were flying B-17Bs in 1942. The B-17B and C lacked rear and ball turrets. More likely they were flying B-17Es or B-17Fs, which was redesigned to fit the turrets, but still did not have the forward facing chin turret. His efforts to add guns to the B-17 Old 666 reminds me of the YB-40 program. In mid 1942 the USAAF had commissioned the Vega company to modify a B-17F as a gunship to act as protection for bomber formations. These were designated XB-40 for the prototype and YB-40 for the pre-production aircraft. The YB-40 would feature a second upper turret, twin machine guns for the waist gunners, and a new chin turret with 2 x 0.50" mgs. Extra ammunition was carried in the bomb bay. Their last mission was in July 1943, as the experiment proved to be a failure. The YB-40s could not keep up with the regular B-17s after they dropped their bombs. The chin turret would continue in a few late build B-17Fs and the B-17G.

[@dustindavidson8033]

I have a feeling they weren't kicked out because they took out ammo and fuel depots but still had to be punished

[@TheMitchyb61]

lol I’m literally watching this video after I got called back to work last night to work all night after working the day. I can confirm, Its a little sporty right now. 😂

[@claudiaclark6162]

I had some guy try to tell me the Gato class sub USS 236 Silversides never saw battle So do trust what people say. The answer is NO! never. I will fight to the end to prove them wrong and learn a few things along the way.

[@williancanales20]

Please react to this the medieval kingdom that was erased from history from Cambrian Chronicles. it is a very fascinating story about the ancient kingdom of Pengwern.

[@tonyjensen7209]

Love TFE! IOWA PROUD!

[@SkUbA_0]

39:40 That says they didn't call the plane "Lucky 666" because it was made up by an author later. Not that wasn't called 666.

[@kevinkasmarski6635]

I appreciate and love the actual history you were able to input But the end of this story is where it hits for me. This crew, whatever their actual accomplishments, saved 40000 of my brothers in arms. Rah rah rah Semper Fidelis brothers

[@jacobweaver6048]

Didn't the RAF develop the first true accurate radar during the war and share it with the USA? Hermon Wouk wrote that story in his historical fictions and I've never researched it further, but he was pretty accurate throughout his novels.

[@5tarSailor]

Thing about their insubordination. I get it, they were a badass crew that did badass things, but you just can't go rogue like that. Their punishments were 100% justified and deserved and while they may have proved themselves to be an asset to the air force, that should be the exception, not the rule. You can't just take unnecessary risks and executive decisions like this, especially in the military. While Zeamer wasn't haphazard in his decisions, that isn't always what is conveyed by those who want to emulate them. And that's the real danger. These guys got away with it because for the most part, they knew what they were doing. You can't guarantee that some other officers would as well, and a haphazard officer will always be defeated.

[@jamessapp4989]

People really underestimate the Wildcat fighter plane and say the Americans didn't have anything that could match the Zero. The Zero was faster and more maneuverable, but the Wildcat had much more powerful 50 caliber machine guns and could take a beating where the Zero would burst into flames. That is why the Thach Weave was so successful, it utilized the advantages the Wildcat had while exploiting the weaknesses of the Zero. Also, while the US quickly agreed to the Germany first strategy, it was with the proviso that during the first months of the war, the US would put primary focus on the Pacific. This was because when the agreement was made, Germany was withdrawing in Russia because of the Soviet winter counteroffensive and Rommel was also struggling in Africa. The Japanese was making rapid expansion into the Pacific southwest and many felt that expansion needed priority focus. Also, it gave the Americans a chance to get a little revenge for the attack on Pearl Harbor and so more willingly accept the Germany first strategy. Ian Toll has a great book called "Pacific Crucible" which is the first book in a trilogy which goes over the entire Pacific War with "Pacific Crucible" going from Pearl Harbor to Midway.

[@danmanak]

Guys like this is why Specisl Forces were created

[@jackmessick2869]

My Uncles Glenn and Kermit re-built an old car in the 1930s, before they were 16. They paid rent to keep the car on a local farmer's property in order to keep it a secret from their parents. But my Grandfather found out when they didn't keep up the rent payments and the farmer went to their dad, asking for the money. One Uncle went to Purdue. When the War started, summer vacation was stopped to accelerate the time to graduate. He became an ordinance officer in the Pacific theater, surviving the war. My other Uncle enlisted in the Navy, became a Naval Gunner on the Liberty Ship USS John Harvey, which exploded at its first destination in Bari Italy after a Luftwaffe attack in December 1943. The attack was given the name "Little Pearl Harbor." They never found his body, dead at 19. Jay Zeamer and Sarnofski are MoH winners. Jay is also an Eagle Scout.

[@Getoffmylawnbrit]

Yes! Thank you!

[@claudiaclark6162]

Whatever works if it works it works

[@evettebrown5877]

On his channel some of the other crazy and possibly insane ones that might interest you are Ramages rampage and Jake mcnasty...sorry if spelling is off

[@ET_Bermuda]

Flight of the Geishas...I laughed out loud at that

[@killman369547]

I think what he meant was Jay's wound should've been fatal, and to most other men it probably would've been, but Jay was just built different.

[@musicfreak0000001]

The bombing formations would’ve been different for the Pacific theater from the European theater. The air currents would’ve been different as well as the distance between the targets(European=large landmass, versus pacific=smaller land masses usually clustered aka islands\).

[@mikegould6590]

Did you review "Proportional"? That's my into to The Fact Electrician

[@_GameWarden_]

Air screens were always up before first bombs, on approach most likely, but never nobody home. WW2 air is the stories of my childhood from family. But still, the safest bird. And yeah, CoC wouldve had a field day with this guys.

[@TraskLargero]

Liked your commentary for the most part, but i have to say, I disagree with you about the officer club. While i can understand and sympathize with the CoC issue, I have to think that this was the war that taught us the dangers of "just following orders."'' While i dont wish to equivicate the bombing of a civilian hotel with the atrocities of the german regime, there does seem to be a similar issue at play. If given immoral orders, is it not beholden on the soldier to disobey?

[@VloggingThroughHistory]

Agreed. I just don’t agree it was an immoral order.

[@TraskLargero]

@VloggingThroughHistory While the order does not even come close to standing out among the US actions during the Pacific theater, and with an additional caveat of taking F.E. at his word in the original video, attacking a civilian target (albeit with an officer's club in it) is at least ethically grey enough that I can't blame the bomber for not following that order.

[@WhatsUp-fe8jc]

More Vth extra content please

[@Dragonite43]

Years ago on the history channel, Dogfights did an episode about them! :D