The Most Disappointing Doctor Who Finale | Empire of Death Review

[@HarboWholmes]

Help support the channel! www.patreon.com/harbowholmes

[@vullord666]

Thanks for the video! I feel like we all knew we'd be disappointed as soon as everyone was dying in the opening. Insane to me how Doctor Who never learns from that little detail. Could've been hype if just Kate died or someone else viewers actually cared about and didn't immediately know would be brought back. Also really disappointed they didn't do more with the corrupted TARDIS. A mini-series of Sutekh and his companions flying around in the usual TARDIS destroying creation while the Doctor was stuck with the Memory TARDIS could've been so dope. Like I imagine hearing the Doctor's TARDIS sound and getting hopeful and then Sutekh pops out and starts destroying everything.

[@MarvelX42]

Another thing that you didn't even mention in that 14, Tenents Doctor is there on Earth in England. What was he doing? He has a TARDIS. He's RIGHT THERE. Where was he?

[@neilgodwin6531]

​@@MarvelX42More importantly, is there a duplicate Sutekh wrapped round it?

[@MarvelX42]

@@neilgodwin6531 You haz point

[@Jaeden_Phoenix]

Sutekh has been eaten by a T-Rex in Victorian London and that will never not be funny to me.

[@nikonbear7882]

I’d also like to know how Sutekh reacted to the TARDIS being shrunk in Flatline!

[@vullord666]

Gotta wonder what it was doing while the House tried to take the TARDIS over in the Doctor's Wife. Like I could see the two actually chatting it up about how they'd conquer the universe if the House succeeded.

[@vorebiz]

He also got painted pink in the Happiness Patrol. Bet he wasn't happy.

[@thefishoffishall3395]

What about sutekh being turned into a paradox machine by the master

[@bearerofbadnews1375]

Also this establishes Sutekh has been the Doctors longest traveling companion.

[@generalj216]

It’s also confusing that they never said why Ruby’s mother was dressed like darth sidious

[@DarthRaptor22]

In 2004 no less

[@TheCagedCorvid]

He was goading us into trickster theories...

[@mgthestrange9098]

They could’ve at least dropped in a line like she was at a fancy dress party or something.

[@DriverHenryWho3245]

To hide her identity so the locals wouldn't find her. I think she stole the cloak from her parents.

[@TheCagedCorvid]

@@DriverHenryWho3245 I considered that, but it doesn't explain why a fifteen year old looks like she's edging 6 feet, with long bony fingers, but when we see her almost 20 years later she's the same height as Ruby, with fairly short fingers in keeping with the rest of her... thinking of that aspect, the cloak pales in significance a bit

[@Jedi_Spartan]

The best thing to come out of this episode is the sheer amount of "How Sutekh reacted to X episode"...

[@illuminatihuman6983]

Yeah for sure, and how he'll react next multi-Doctor story when he sees he's not there

[@RicPendragon]

@@illuminatihuman6983 Yes and No. He was removed from the timelines he corrupted too, so I don't think he exists in that period between 4-15 anymore? it's all a bit wibbly wobbly

[@illuminatihuman6983]

@RicPendragon I'm just gonna go with my headcannon, cuz it's more funny.

[@gbrogo7139]

It’s fun to imagine that during day of the Doctor’s ending celebration in the lobby of Tardis’, and you had like a half dozen Sutekhs just fist bumping eachother and giggling about their revenge fantasies

[@LombaxOttsel]

Oh I’ve been having a field day. R/doctorwhumour has been popping off

[@illuminatihuman6983]

"It needs a second draft" is how I feel about a lot of recent Doctor Who episodes

[@tzarg]

agreed

[@Shew28]

You kind of wonder what a script editor does?

[@NicoleM_radiantbaby]

@@Shew28 RTD prolly steamrolls right over them, not wanting his work edited.

[@Glitchtophertm]

Honestly… for me, it feels more like it's a second draft that forgot important plot points from the first draft that are still there.

[@Twistedkingjabs89]

​@@NicoleM_radiantbaby could not agree more

[@Borgopixel]

People complain about Moffat but I look back fondly at how character driven and small scale his last two season finales were

[@oscarsmusiclab7201]

Ngl my favourite 2 finals are seasons 9 and 10

[@vullord666]

Each part of the finale's could also stand on their own by series 9. Like "Face the Raven", "Heaven Sent", and "Hell Bent" are really a three part finale but none are just setup and each stand on their own as episodes. Heck, Heaven Sent is one of the best episodes in Doctor Who and it isn't reliant on either the previous or next episode to be a fantastic watch. Similarly "World Enough Time" and "The Doctor Falls" are two episodes you can watch by themselves and it'd be fine. Like they're more connected than series 9, but "World Enough Time" is interesting in how different of an episode it is from "The Doctor Falls" with the former being more of a horror vibe and the latter more action. Moffat really felt like he had learned through his tenure. His biggest problem (and Doctor Who as a whole) was the huge deus ex machina endings, but Capaldi's era was so character driven and felt so grounded, which is what I'd say RTD Is lacking right now. It feels like so much of the writing right now is just taking shortcuts from when RTD felt brought the show back and then falling into the exact same worst writing pitfalls from his era. Actually series 10 probably would have been a good template to look at here. The first part is similarly mostly exposition and talking, yet it still feels more dynamic and interesting and the second part keeps a major explosive ending feeling grounded and human.

[@bradugar]

@@vullord666Face the Raven, Heaven Sent, Hell Bent & Husbands of River Song is the longest stretch of back to back bangers in the show for me.

[@mackielunkey2205]

What I honestly really like about Moffat's finales (as a whole) is that while I might not like elements in them, I deeply respect him trying to tell his finales uniquely rather than him just pulling the end of the world/dimensions/universes BS for every single season like Davies does.

[@jessehammer123]

@@bradugarI feel exactly the same- FtR-HoRS is just legendary episode after legendary episode, and you know what? People complain about Moffat thinking about plot over characterization/emotion, yet those four episodes are incredibly emotional character studies that pull it all off brilliantly. It’s like people saw more sci-fi and speeches (which don’t even usually work!) and less soapy stuff and assumed Moffat couldn’t do emotion/characterization. Preposterous, if you ask me.

[@FaumauNZ]

Imagine how harrowing it could have been for the TARDIS to land in a settlement of survivors and for them all to think they've been saved, only for the doors to open and for the dust of death to take them all. What a missed opportunity to do anything interesting

[@jessehammer123]

Yeah, that would’ve been a brilliant idea. You could’ve used aliens from the show’s past- show the Ood for pathos, the Daleks for power, and whatever else you want. Heaven knows the whole “signifiers of the Doctor being misused for death and destruction” thing was underused in Power of the Doctor (here the TARDIS, there some sort of…essence of the Doctor?).

[@dominickeijzer5844]

@@jessehammer123 Hell, it's even more heart-wrenching if it lands on a planet with people that know the Doctor. Imagine the Ood welcoming the TARDIS and chanting that the Doctor is here to bring death to death, only to be dusted. Or what if it lands near Jack? I swear this episode would've been perfect to bring in Captain Jack somehow.

[@Harry_SS]

Your one idea is singlehandedly better than anything this season. Bravo

[@cement_eater]

@@dominickeijzer5844 no chance of bringing Captain Jack back, since John Barrowman isn't coming back for the foreseeable future

[@chrisdiokno5600]

@@jessehammer123 TBF it was implied

[@impax2634]

I still don't have any clue on how ruby was able to summon snow.

[@justanormalhumanbeing1903]

I think that might have either been Mrs Flood or an echo through time of the time window

[@TheCagedCorvid]

​@justanormalhumanbeing1903 I'm sure it was mrs flood... it's snowing on the roof at the end, but the rest of the episode is at or around the current time of year from the clothes and weather we see. She's a bigger part of everything than has been let on yet

[@rozzgrey801]

It wasn't snow, it was dandruff.

[@MKR5210]

I still couldn't care less 😶

[@option3590]

Leading theory rn - unless it turns out Mrs Flood is involved - is that it was technically never her summoning the snow, but rather the TARDIS/Sutekh. Passengers maintain a psychic link with the ship, remember? For translation purposes. So any time her past came up, Sutekh’d start obsessing over “who was that woman WHO WAS THAT WOMAN REEEEEEE” and it’d manifest as physical snow. This would go an extra ways to explaining why it snowed inside the TARDIS at the end of that one episode (Space Babies?) when Ruby wasn’t even around; the TARDIS itself is ruminating on it independently.

[@peterskrobola8753]

The fundamental premise that Sutekh would care about Ruby’s mother at all is stupid.

[@bradugar]

Meanwhile he has known Clara to defy death, his own domain several times. I know which Impossible Girl would be more noteworthy

[@vullord666]

@@bradugar Kinda crazy how Moffat has been getting hate for years over Clara and everyone's been riding RTD... and now RTD has just pulled a worst Moffat. Like is there memory wiping kool-aid in Doctor Who's writing room to keep them form learning from previous mistakes?

[@mickys8065]

@@vullord666 especially when Clara kind of made sense. I personally wouldn't have written the impossible girl arc at all, especially when it basically gets dropped post Matt Smith, but the logic Moffat used in the episode isn't entirely nonsensical.

[@michaeldlevins6608]

24:48 This is the bit that annoyed me the most about the reveal. It felt like the writers pointing and laughing at us for caring about the mystery, when THEY were the ones who made it mysterious. What is this, the Sherlock season 3 premiere?

[@erubin100]

@@bradugar Perhaps we treated her too harshly...

[@MightyElemental]

I also thought Kate was going to remain dead. But then I saw the extent to which the death wave spread and realized everyone was going to come back as if nothing happened. What's the point in a show if there are no consequences? Things can't progress if everything is reset at the end of every adventure.

[@tinysteelorchestra]

Exactly. The moment Kate and everybody got dusted, it removed all jeopardy in the story, because you knew it would all be reset. Again.

[@Edward-vc7le]

What the dog doing

[@ThwaryesTheIvattEngine]

What makes this sting even more is one of the comments Russell made saying that the only mistake he found after rewatch was that The Doctor, Ruby, and "Dead" Mel got transported from 2046 HR to 2024 UNIT HQ. If he's saying that that minor nit-pick was the worst mistake of this finale, then we're most likely gonna be in hell for next year

[@something1600]

I just assumed that "Dead" Mel took them back using the Memory TARDIS.

[@ThwaryesTheIvattEngine]

@@something1600 Nope. There was no remembered TARDIS in sight

[@shmikex]

I am a fan of the Sutekh memes throughout the decades. House (after posessing the TARDIS): Hey, who are you? Sutekh: I'm uhhh the family dog? House: Fair enough. Also all those years spinning around you'd think he'd get dizzy.

[@flamingpizzareuploads4724]

100% hit the nail on the head. The stakes are non-existant, Sutehk is underused and easily defeated, the Ruby's mum mystery reveal was fumbled, and Rudy and The Doctor didn't have enough onscreen interactive for me to care when Ruby leaves.

[@tomnorton4277]

To be fair, Millie Gibson's a very good actress who just has the misfortune of being in a very bad show. I watched her goodbye. I hadn't watched anything else before that, so I went into the scene with no context or knowledge of her acting abilities. She nailed it. Not only did she build up the moment perfectly, letting it play out slowly instead of entering the TARDIS in tears at the start, but the way she said "I love you" at the end, a line that could have easily come across as cliched and corny, was very emotional. I'm so disconnected from Doctor Who at this point that I didn't really care but if Ruby had been part of, for example, Peter Capaldi's era, I probably would have cried.

[@Diogo85]

@@tomnorton4277 How is Doctor who "very bad"?

[@tomnorton4277]

@@Diogo85 It's been shit ever since Peter Capaldi delivered his last words. Heck, in that very same speech, Steven Moffat actually wrote "I know they'll get it all wrong without me". He was completely right. I didn't even think Capaldi was the right choice for the 13th Doctor (yes, he's 13, not 12). I would have much preferred his era if John Hurt was doing it. But at least the show was still recognisably Doctor Who. It died in Twice Upon A Time.

[@fanthonyfictions]

Even if the DNA thing did get destroyed... "Attention people of the world. The woman on screen now is Ruby Sunday. She was left as a baby at this church on this date. She wants to know who her mother is. If you are her mother, please call this number. You will remain anonymous. But your daughter just saved the universe, so you kinda owe her some closure on that front."

[@vullord666]

Right? They even made a point in the closing act to have Ruby's mom act like she always "tried" to reconnect with her but felt too scared about Ruby not wanting to see her. Well there her daughter was broadcasted on TV to the entire world with her whole story (the church and ruby road) begging for some hope to find her mom. Like was said, that just doesn't hold up if Ruby's mom is just "normal". The real life TV show did basic detective work and actually investigated long lost relatives. But here they couldn't find a woman who was revealed just to have been a teenager not ready to be a mom and not wanting to have a child in an abusive home?

[@Adamairball]

I don't know if you're talking about Ruby Sunday being on Davina McCall's show, but I imagine that episode about Ruby wouldn't have been aired after they failed to find her parents.

[@fanthonyfictions]

@@Adamairball Sorry for the late replay I litterally just got the notification. No, I was thinking Unit could make the brodcast. Or they could send a strong letter to the BBC telling them to make sure EVERYONE knows this message.

[@Adamairball]

@@fanthonyfictions It's ok! And I see what you mean now. Yeah, that would've worked as well!

[@redblueberg]

My problem with this season is 8 episodes with 2 plots being very doctor absent made it hard for Ruby and the Doctor to stand out or really grasp me as them as a pair. I like them together, but there weren't enough times where they challenged one another, had banter or called eachother out on stuff to then strengthen their bond and heavily connect. Eccelston and Piper had 5 extra episodes, sure. BUT even they were able to adapt brilliant chemistry, banter and challenges to one another that worked, and Father's day handled a missing parent story better.

[@creativejuice3852]

What a shame cause this season built up it’s mysterious amazingly: Susan twist, ruby’s mum, the one who waits, the snow, it’s all really intriguing and engaging… Then this episode either wastes, forgets, or butchers each and every one of them.

[@RayTheomo]

Exactly. It was all going great until they tripped face first at the 5 yd line😂

[@vullord666]

I actually don't think any were forgotten but I wish some were. Stuff like Ruby's Mom explanation really hits MCU levels of lamp shading. I think it could have even worked if it was mostly memory and the Doctor himself hadn't traveled back. Ruby misremembering and hyping up the mom would have been fine. But the Doctor was there, we saw her in real time with a freaking magic dark lord cloak, and she pointed at him and the TARDIS. You can't just add in random retcons like the show hammered in with the sign. Everything gets "explained" but none of the explanations hold up with the clues we've been given. It feels like we were punished for following the show.

[@vullord666]

@@RayTheomo It was going "okay" until they tripped face first at the 5yd line. Really this season feels like it was underbaked from day one. I don't even blame all that on the writing. Like who TF thought 8 episodes (9 including church on Ruby road) was good enough for a Doctor Who season?

[@pickles168]

It was just a load mystery boxes. It wasn't a good build up at all

[@bearerofbadnews1375]

This arc combined elements of Bad wolf and impossible girl and somehow did worse.

[@LtAlguien]

Honestly the whole thing about ruby's mother is bad writing and a a cop out, but that's not the worst part. The worst part is the whole gaslighitng "oh, she is special because you(fans) made them special", like that is insulting. You don't make a HUGE deal about her and having her have special circumstances that make the characters in universe question if she is human, having gods afraid and confused and then pretend that never happen because you want to pat yourself in the back over "upping the internet" Honestly wonder if it should be called "bad writing" or even "writing" because it comes more as clickbait from a tabloid that a plotline from a show

[@TheCagedCorvid]

He did say this would be doctor who for the Internet age... I just didn't realise he'd stoop to the lowest parts of the Internet. It was bad enough that in every interview and post there was encouragement to look for clues an analyse, but putting literal click bait into the actual show itself!? Then retconning it while basically calling us all fools! And having the Doctor be the one to say it!!!! I feel betrayed...

[@coruscanta]

Honestly! And it could’ve worked on some level, like we’ve had psychic subspace networks and the Doctor convincing a door to open itself, occasional 4th wall breaks(or at least almost so) and so much wackiness. All we needed was some mumbo jumbo techno babble that halfway made sense and I probably would’ve been content nodding along, even if I didn’t love it. But instead it got hand waved away. Felt like the fakeouts in the pub from 73yds, and I really didnt care for those fakeouts.

[@benjp6949]

Could agree more, the way it was set-out in the previous episode I was looking forward to finding out who the Hooded person is instead of being Ruby's mum, would've have been a brilliant twist! Something sinister!

[@jackking1900]

“Davis ex machina” got me

[@gf1006]

The twist is also ruined because the ambulance (which was wayy after 2046) couldn’t find ruby’s family, which implies that they exist in no records at all - it makes no sense to then have her family in records

[@Jamestopboy]

Ambulance is on an alien planet, which wouldn’t have Ruby’s birth records or anything else since she just came out of nowhere with 15.

[@gf1006]

@@Jamestopboy its still the future of the human race, the origin is earth. If you have data on ruby you have data on her family

[@Jamestopboy]

@@gf1006 The planet is uninhabitabed: the only people there are those who are on record from the fighting. Ruby, due to Sutekh, I’d assume Ruby was on file too, but Sutekh doesn’t know her mother…

[@gf1006]

@@Jamestopboy I assume the records are from valengard. Either way this isn’t established and is symptomatic of poorly thought out plot pointd

[@Jamestopboy]

@@gf1006 That would make sense. Why would Villengard know about Ruby's family, after all?

[@suitablestrawberry687]

Been worried about how sloppy and rushed the RTD story-telling has been since the specials, once again in the finale too many loose ends were dangling and then not resolved in a satisfactory way. I think the show urgently needs new blood on the writing team, a more diverse pool of writers could create a more interesting blend of stories. Relying too much on the lead writer also had issues in the SM and CB eras, that could be a lesson to learn. Is it so hard to find TV script writers? Oh and in the cafe Ruby missed the chance to say "are you my Mummy?"

[@felxstorm]

Agreed. Keep RTD as the show runner but have other people write the stories. At least in s15 there are going to be four writers other than RTD. And Disney, give us 13 episodes per season, allow RTD some room to breathe so the new seasons don’t feel so rushed.

[@adamfreddo5703]

I mean Clive's line in Rose means a lot more now I guess... he literally did travel with Death itself.

[@MrLethalShots]

when Clive cums he's there

[@bradugar]

Sutekh was totally messing with Twelve in Listen, I don’t think he latched onto the outside more so was hiding inside, only coming out to make a new Susan

[@aljarv4795]

Listen was written 10 years before this idea was come up with.

[@thevaultdweller4709]

Also with 10 and “he will knock 4 times” 🤣

[@FoulOwlx]

I like to think that Sutekh started to knock to troll the 10th

[@option3590]

@@aljarv4795boy you must’ve REALLY not liked the deluge of memes that came out of this episode lmao.

[@creed8712]

If I recall canonically the thing from listen was River and Jack

[@chrisknight2631]

Pretty sure the two episodes were supposed to be edited together. Not sure why they weren’t. Before the second episode started, Millie Gibson said during the “special message” thank you for coming and to enjoy The Legend of Ruby Sunday and Empire of Death as one episode. She introduced the episode we’d just watched again! Somebody somewhere doesn’t know what they’re doing!

[@vullord666]

"not sure why they weren't" feels like a lot of this season. Beyond the writing there were just so many tiny things in production that hurt the experience. Like who the heck organized the show on Disney+? That's supposed to be the global face of Doctor Who now and they can't even order episodes and specials properly under one show like HBO Max had.

[@aeloswindrunner]

I like the idea of Ruby's mum being normal, and her importance being what Ruby and her desires have given to her, on paper, because it feels like a natural extension of the doctor's attitude that everyone is important somewhere (like with 11 in Christmas Carol, "900 years of time and space and I've never met anyone who wasn't important"). But it's not handled that well when it all comes together on the screen given all the setup Also Mrs Flood continues to be irrationally terrifying to me. That epilogue 4th wall break from her was horrifying

[@izzisart]

Yeah, basically it's actually a really good concept... That's brought down by all the other setup that just doesn't make sense with her being a normal human. The snow, for example, which i swear is never explained. On its own, it's fantastic- connected to the rest of the series, it's so bad.

[@option3590]

@@izzisart if the snow doesn’t get explained later, best to assume it was just an occasional manifestation of Sutekh’s own fixation.

[@izzisart]

@@option3590 Honestly, I'll take that theory 😆

[@iaminthewalls1983carp]

@@izzisartIt did get explained, The Doctor said it was just a powerful memory or some other bs on those lines.

[@izzisart]

@@iaminthewalls1983carp Might be I just missed it then. Clearly didn't make much impact if that's the case 😂 Again, it's a good idea with really bad execution.

[@FTZPLTC]

tbh, starting with "Absolutely everyone dies" isn't just a bad idea because it will be hard to top. The fact that the episode *starts* like that kinda screws up any tension, because from that point on, we definitely know that at least most of the damage is going to be reversed before the end - because as viewers we know there's no way the show's going to just end itself like that. I know that most Who episodes that introduce a major threat are going to have to find a way to hit reset, but they can usually find ways to make it feel like it might not happen, or ensure that there are genuine losses and consequences even after that. At least with most of those big overblown finales, at least someone who dies does stay dead.

[@TheTr1anglee]

“Just this once Rose! Everybody dies!”

[@Comicbroe405]

Honestly I really enjoyed the first half of the ep. They build up the threat well & seeing the Sun go dark was cool. The scene with the Doctor talking with that woman was great too. Like many ppl I don't mind that Ruby's mom was human. But god that execution is lackluster & almost pretentious. Dragging Sutekh like a dog across the Time Vortex is a cool visual but even that part of the ep doesn't make sense. Ig in a way RTD'S DW is back cuz we have the mid finales again.

[@lolfzbf]

Wouldn't it have made more sense to have had the Beast from The Satan to be The One who Who Waits?. The Beast could have latched onto the Tardis before falling into the black hole at the end of the episode. Also, the Beast was an actual god from before the dawn of time. The original evil.

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

Honestly, I think the Beast is Mrs. Flood. “Tell your maker I will siege his gates of gold.” That’s some Satan shit

[@cement_eater]

tbh I wouldn't mind the Beast coming back in some capacity, but he shouldn't be the villain of a season. He'd end up getting beaten with a deus ex showrunner, like Sutekh was. Better to keep him his own thing, separate from the Pantheon, in order to preserve the atmosphere of his first story

[@legendary5733]

Actually, the Black Guardian is the original evil. Because chaos and evil exist throughout time because of him. Satan or The Beast. Is just another interpretation of the Devil, not the real one. Since he did have a brother in series Torchwood.

[@option3590]

The Beast was created to be a one-off villain who we were never supposed to get more context on. It’d ruin the sense of dreadful mystery around him. Not even comics or audios or novels have brought The Beast back up, cuz they all understand that. Besides, in the context of the wider canon? Chances are he’s just another Pantheon member. Reprobate or something. And even explaining that much would kinda defang his original story. Edit: also IMO nah. It wouldn’t have made more sense, anyway. Toymaker made a point that he could mog other elder gods. It had to be something outside of his nigh-omniscient understanding. As such, I figured it’d always have to be a mortal who’d ASCENDED to godhood, since that’d be terrifyingly unprecedented. It being Sutekh specifically makes extra-perfect sense, because he’s a mortal ascended to godhood WHO’S OBSESSED WITH SPREADING THE VERY CONCEPT OF MORTALITY TO EVERYTHING. That’s what it takes for a god to take one look and run.

[@option3590]

@@cement_eater also this. You bring The Beast back? You’re necessitating he get beaten again. Probably in a more embarrassing cliche way, since by bringing him back at all you’ve already reclassified him from “unknowable one-off terror” to “recurring consistently-beatable baddie”. Sutekh can take that hit a lot easier. Since he’s already gone through that treatment in multiple spin-off appearances, and since he wasn’t particularly “unknowable” in the first place.

[@frankcouture428]

Doctor Who is much better if you just pretend it ended in "Twice Upon a Time" right after 12 says "Doctor, I let you go", right before 12 regenerates into 13 the screen just goes black.

[@Yarnballer]

My thoughts re: Sutekh v. other introduced “gods” Toymaker and Maestro is that leaving Sutekh only in cranky winged jackal made made him seem less threatening than Toymaker or Maestro - even though he was killing the universe more effectively than the first two. Having cranky winged jackal as the means by which Sutekh held onto the TARDIS (I do wonder how he felt about Jack & Clara hanging on as well) is a great concept. But having him then transform into an update of the Pyramid of Mars manifestation. Having a strutting, ominous baddy coming to Ruby for the screen or hurling the Doctor across the room with a green powered gesture would have been a plus. Other fails include the kindly woman. What this needed was to have a reason to care about the woman in terms of connecting the woman to a planet we’ve been to in NewWho or Classic Who. So that when the Doctor identifies the world she lived on it would have more impact than some rando from a rando planet. Yes, we don’t know every planet the Doctor has been … but this is a situation where knowing she was from a planet as known as the Oodsphere or Skaro. Having Ruby’s mom be an ordinary woman who left her child at a church because of the nature of her home life is great. What fails though are all of the elements that were part of the misdirects. The cloak, the pointing, the snow, the Carole of the Bells, everything is … poof …nothing. Series 2 needs to do better.

[@cement_eater]

yeah, I really hate that Sutekh stayed the big CG monster. It looked so obviously fake. would be fine in a vacuum, but it's jarring here given how great the rest of the season looked. Not to mention, how well the practical version from 1975 holds up in comparison

[@ftumschk]

So glad you picked up on the idea of Sutekh hitching a lift on the TARDIS during "Blue Yonder.", which is exactly what I thought.

[@Starsteam1]

They were on the edge of the universe where crazy things can happen, he could of slipped through to attach himself.

[@ftumschk]

@@Starsteam1 Exactly!

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

@@ftumschkwould’ve been way easier to just say that Sutekh latched onto the Tardis when they landed and that’s why it was groaning

[@option3590]

What made you think it was Sutekh they early on!

[@ftumschk]

@@option3590 I didn't - I'm not that clever :) I was just saying it would have been a far better idea to have Sutekh hitch a lift on the TARDIS in "Blue Yonder" than to have us believe that he'd been literally hanging on in every story since 1975!

[@merlin8046]

All plot stuff aside, I just wanna say that in Polish "Sutekh" sounds like "sutek" and it means "a nipple"

[@conbest1030]

When the TARDIS became human in 'The Doctor's Wife', you'd think she'd mention a giant spectral dog-god has been hanging off her for the past 500 years

[@Iionsong]

i loved this season but the finale has left a sour taste in my mouth. also does anyone else wish they'd spend the budget on more episodes rather than special effects? i mean, i doubt most Whovians care too much about visuals, we have survived the most tragic cgi. i know it's 2024, but i genuinely think if the writing was amazing, SFX being just ok wouldn't bother anyone

[@crismatos2723]

👏👏👏

[@oatymilkshake]

I don’t think more episodes would have saved the writing, there should be more episodes but that doesn’t give Russell an excuse for this sub standard writing. Other shows have done a lot more in a lot less.

[@pascalsimioli6777]

The fact you loved this season makes your opinion invalid already. I don't trust who can't recognize poor quality, sorry.

[@j.i.nthenobody54]

@@pascalsimioli6777yeah, there’s plot holes galore this season, but there’s still good ideas in there. Like Boom or Dot and Bubble

[@nehen2225]

​@@j.i.nthenobody54And all of them were treated poorly and with flaws and inconsistencies throught the episodes.

[@jd_music23]

The big issue I've not heard people talk about with the "kind woman" scene is that the synopsis for the episode literally says nothing can save the world "except, perhaps, one woman" and then RTD reiterated in as a tease the world would be saved by "a very kind woman" yet by the end of the episode you forget she was even in it. And like you say the spoon feels so irrelevant to actually saving the day anyway. It seems to emphasise how unaware he is of what he wrote! The other issue is we never establish that metal is scarce. I mean why would Sutehk want to destroy all metal. He only says he's destroying living things. This is never established. So it's such a jarring moment to suddenly just accept there's no metal.

[@rhyswallace3590]

I gotta be honest. This soured almost the whole season for me. I feel like Russell T Davies basically mocked the audience for even theorizing Ruby's origins were anything extraordinary. I saw people speculating she was related to the Doctor, or she was created by the Lord of Fiction, or she was the daughter of Toymakers sister who was the queen of Time. All those theories would've been so much better. RTD said the Timeless Child would feed into the dynamic with Ruby, it didn't. He also said he'd do something with it and based on the 60s specials I thought the events of the Flux would come up. Basically I thought This entire thing was building towards the Doctor being at fault for all this happening, since the Flux and Wilde Blue Yonder. I thought fifteens arc was supposed to be making up for ruining the Universe by letting these gods in. RTD said the tales of the Tardis would make sense after this and it didn't. How did the memory Tardis exist? Why were past versions of the Doctor meeting past companions? Dunno f#@* me right? I thought Ruby would have some kind of power over memories, create the memory Tardis to help the Doctor and give him closure with his past lives to energize him to defeat Sutekh. Nope Jesus Christ! I also thought maybe Sutekh would be her father and Her mom pointed at him to warn him to stay away from her or the Doctor by bringing him to her. Nope she was pointing at a sign. TF is going on? And apparently Sutekh was on the Tardis since Tom baker but The Tardis never tried warning the Doctor or she didn't shake it off when The Tardis exploded, imploded, got her soul placed in a human body, became a paradox machine etc? Yeah right. I just feel like all Russell did, everything he's done since he's been back has been, well because he could. "Doctor who isn't supposed to make sense dont think about it too hard." He completely just talked down to us the entire time. "Like oh If anyone's upset grow up it's Doctor who ". I can't believe everyone gave Moffat so much bs because Davies isn't any better. I grew up on Moffat so never had rose tinted glasses for RTD. And if next season's are anything like this I might have to step out. And I really don't want to. Ncuti and Millie deserved so much better.

[@mayotango1317]

Russell T. Davies mentioned in 2005 that "if you're on Planet Zog, and the Zog people are fighting with the Zog monster, I don't give a toss! Who cares about that?"

[@TheCagedCorvid]

This whole comment sums up how I feel about RTD right now. I actually feel hurt. I usually rewatch a season once it's over, but I can't bring myself to.

[@joshryan155]

To be honest, I kind of find it odd that Ruby only ever focused on finding just her birth mother & not her father throughout her debut series? I understand her being raised by Carla, her loving single foster mum, would naturally make her wonder if her biological mother is just as kind, hence her desire to find her.. but c'mon, she never at once wondered about who her father was growing up? Or even showed any desire to have a loving father in her life? Odd writing imo

[@joshryan155]

@@cark4702 well exactly, it's just strange that in her 9 episode appearances she never spoke about who her father could be? I mean personally episode Boom with the girl losing her father it could of been an opportunity of dialogue with Ruby chatting to the Doctor wondering upon her own dad. I feel that RTD just wanted to do his own "Disney princess searching for her lost mother story trope" and didn't care much about any other details.

[@izzisart]

I'm ngl, I was fully expecting that to be intentional on Russell's part and the twist was going to be her mother was human but it was actually her father was an alien or a god or something, and that's why the mother gave her up. Focusing on the mother and not him would just be an intentional misdirect in the writing. But then they just... didn't do that and made her Dad a normal guy.

[@retrogiftsuk4812]

You're right. She had a mum (adopted mum) regardless. If she was lacking anything in her life it was a father.

[@umwha]

I think that Rubys baggage about being adopted was ENTIRELY told and not shown. I see no evidence in her actions that she carries emotional damage from this. She doesn't seek approval from adults, she dosetn fear abandonment by others, she doesn't seem to have low self esteem, or see herself as disposable. She doesn't even act out for attention.

[@joshryan155]

@@umwha agree, as I also feel that maybe if this was a traditional NuWho 13 episode series with Gatwa being fully available we might of had more of an extension of Ruby's character journey + her growing friendship with the Doctor. As honestly I felt nothing when she said goodbye lol

[@lmackenzie89]

100% Suetekh should have come through because of the Flux. It's such an obviously good set up

[@carsforever4002]

I think these overly bombastic epic finales (that always fall flat) need to be reassessed. Unless it’s series 4 The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End which was a beautiful build up of the previous 4 series, any other finale just feels anticlimactic. I love finales being bigger adventures but the whole “end of the universe” just doesn’t do anything for me anymore because they’ve done it so often (we literally just had it with Flux). I personally don’t think finales need to be a build up of the whole season because it doesn’t work well anymore especially with only 8 episodes.

[@vullord666]

Its not "needs to be assessed" its "just don't do them". The idea of an entire episode being pointless except for setup is just bad writing. The number one rule in writing is that the audience's time is precious. Everything has to matter and be grounded. Like I love series 9 because even though the hybrid reveal is disappointing, the finale itself is heavily grounded by its characters. Hell Bent I've come to give props for not being about a universe ending threat, but just about letting go and moving on from an obsession with a friend. Plus even if you don't like it, Heaven Sent is a fantastic episode that stands on its own and not just setup for the finale. Series 10's finale in practice is just so mundane (not saving the universe; just delaying a small group of people from dying for a few more generations), but it works so well because of the character focused nature and because of 12's entire character arc. Like you don't need to destroy all of creation to make me care. Actually that usually does the opposite. I love the Doctor battling gods and demons and winning, but why does the battle always feel so cheap? The villains don't come off as threatening when we know everything bad they did will be completely undone with no lingering consequences literally MINUTES into the episode.

[@carsforever4002]

@@vullord666 I was trying to word it nice but you said it, just don’t do them! Finales are never my favourite episodes I find smaller scaled grounded episodes to be most impactful. And I agree the battles feel cheap I don’t feel the threat and the villains literally don’t do anything substantial to make me scared or to make me believe they’re worth the hype. As my fave show is SJA, for me the perfect finale is Goodbye, Sarah Jane. Not end of the universe or anything but jeez it’s so incredible and the character developments of Sarah Jane’s companions are so good. I’ve been let down numerous times this season, Maestro being branded as “the Doctors most powerful enemy yet” is laughable, 73 Yards had a horrendous payoff and the finale just didn’t do anything for me. Maybe it’ll change next season but idk.

[@legendary5733]

I think the idea of "end of the universe" can work. If the universe was destroyed and the hero has to travel to another universe. Leaving the other into ruins and misery as a consequence for recklessness or sacrifice for the hero misfortunes. Something like Rick Sanchez did after screwing up Morty's universe they needed to travel into another universe.

[@Padovanm125]

Is it just me or did they focus on Telos a bit more than every other planet mentioned (besides the Oods… thank god for them). Also, I totally agree about the tension leaving once UNIT was killed. I was shocked for a second that Kate died and thought it was fitting… but then everyone started dying and it became clear a reset button would be hit somewhere.

[@kelseyredford219]

As far as the planets I noticed when they were listing the planets that were destroyed they mentioned Skaro, but when listing the planets that were restored, Skaro was not mentioned.

[@vullord666]

@@kelseyredford219 Its probably nothing, but it'd actually be really interesting if 15 gave into the temptation here and kept the Daleks dead (especially after the big speech to Sutekh about representing life). Guess we'll probably see in the Christmas special.

[@bobdobalina2931]

Sutekh looked more like a donkey to me and all donkeys are cute and huggable.

[@umwha]

I think this is because he's based on the Set Animal of egyptian mythology. Nobody knows which animal the Set Animal was, but it might have been a combination of a jackal and donkey

[@option3590]

@@umwhaI like the aardvark theory.

[@Lia-zw1ls7tz7o]

7:38 Now I'm imagining mini Sutekh clinging onto the mini-TARDIS in Clara's bad in Flatline. 😂

[@johnnypickering7688]

and telling jack to fuck off in utopia. and calling house an amateur. and cringing as he's swallowed by a t-rex

[@Sagu1712]

To be fair it being reported that Ruby will be back for the next season shouldnt be considered a fault on the show in terms of the emotions of that scene. Especially since not everyone reads the news regarding the show and could easily miss her return as I did

[@mjudec]

Ruby's coming back? 😂

[@vullord666]

It very much is though. Though its more with the production and/or marketing team. Shows have to take into account the real world emotions people feel about their writing and how they can try. People can't just watch a show in a vacuum (especially one with weekly releases). I mean heck, last episode we were praising RTD for acknowledging that fans would have probably come to the conclusion that S Triad was a TARDIS acronym and guess Susan. We also have to call it out when the show undermines itself. Like I'd at least give benefit if this was the result of leaks or something, but when official Doctor Who sources (including RTD himself in interview) are spoiling that she's returning almost immediately, why should I as a viewer care about her departure? Now to clarify this doesn't effect how emotional the departure was to the characters in universe (15 and Ruby), but I think the point was about why should viewers care or feel anything. The show has already struggled to establish to viewers the strength of Ruby and 15s relationship (with stuff like a 6 month time gap in episode 2... like just why) and the official reporting from the show confirming her return because we've even watched her departure doesn't do that scene any favors. The experience of any piece of media goes beyond what's just presented in that media and that's why we have full teams nowadays dedicated to keeping viewers engaged and things are taken into account even in the production and planning stages. Take for example a movie. A movie made for cinema is edited to take advantage of that very different viewing experience. A good example was given here about how the cinema release of Empire of Death should have been edited into being both parts back to back to better match a movie experience viewers in theaters could get engaged in. Another example is COVID when all of a sudden movie production companies were faced with the reality that these films first intended for "theaters only" would be viewed by a lot of people at home (or even god forbid on a mobile device) on digital/streaming. Of course that's not on the writing itself, but is just me trying to say a viewer's experience of media goes beyond just the in-universe writing. It is DEFINITELY the felt of the show for not controlling (or understanding) that better. Again, sometimes its not the shows fault and if it comes out leakers got it out first and official sources just tried to do damage control, fine. But if it is that the show's marketing or production execs genuinely thought it'd be a fine idea to confirm Ruby would return BEFORE this aired knowing this scene would happen, then yeah its on the show for cheapening the experience for a lot of viewers.

[@daveofyorkshire301]

Time Lords made TARDIS's on Galifry. TARDIS are alive and therefore can't just be thrown together. _The Eye of Harmony is a powerful energy source that plays a crucial role in the Doctor Who universe. It is an artificial black hole created by the Time Lords to provide energy for their home world of Gallifrey and their time travel technology_

[@offtheradar-5802]

Galifrys would be a cool Time Lord Cuisine.

[@Phoenix2312]

The Doctor also carries the Eye of Harmony in his TARDIS... I dont recall how it ended up there, I know its covered in a Classic Who Story... That being said, This is not the first time we have seen a TARDIS thrown Together from Spare Parts... So I think you are nitpicking a bit! I mean, if you really want to get technical, TARDIS are GROWN, NOT Built! (Deleted Scene from The Tennent Era... But it is now Canon!) Overall, there is so much more to criticise...

[@daveofyorkshire301]

@@Phoenix2312 The Eye of Harmony is the name given to the power source, they're in ALL TARDIS. TARDIS grow and have infinite size but they must first be constructed, there has never been mention of how, but the first Doctor stole his TARDIS from a repair line, so they had engineers to service them, and decommission them because a type-40 was a decommissioned TARDIS design at some point through the original series... Every time he went home they made a point of saying it was a decommissioned type-40 and there was only one in operation and The Doctor had it.

[@Phoenix2312]

@@daveofyorkshire301 The Eye of Harmony wasn't always the Power Source of All TARDIS though was it... It is now with Nu-Who but before that it was a Galifrean Artefact and there was ONLY ONE! Seems me and you both recall good old Classic Who! And again, I still think you are focused too much on the fact they had that "Memory TARDIS"... I mean, is it a bit of a "McGuffin" to get them out of a Corner they painted themselves into - OH HELL YEAH! so its not good writing... Not in the least... But for Old School fans it is also a bit of a Nostalgia Trip... I get the feeling that is something they were aiming for... Again, There is a lot more issues than that though! I mean... Bear in mind I have only seen this review not teh actual show... HOLLYWOOD CLICHE! Massive Swirling Ball of DUST DESTROYS EVERYTHING! I do think that Doctor Who has done it better than any Hollywood movie, but its still a sodding cliché at this point! Its either a Massive Dust Cloud or a Mysterious Beam of Light! (More or less Every DC / MARVEL MOVIE for about 5 years!)

[@daveofyorkshire301]

@@Phoenix2312 OK, what was the power source if it wasn't The Eye of Harmony? I know classic Who didn't troubling itself much with this detail but I'm sure it was referenced a few times as a collapsing star or a star collapsing into a black hole. The source of Galifreys power and all time capsules. So why do you believe differently? Why do you believe there is only one Eye of Harmony? The Omega storyline (1973) actually detailed his experiment to blow up a star, and that granted the technology and power for time travel.

[@eidolon1809]

All through the episode I felt like the show was saying to me "you're supposed to feel a big emotion now" but I felt nothing. Every big moment felt unearned & contrived because we were not given time to know any of these characters amid all the madcap action. And I felt sorry for the cast who were acting their hearts out, trying to give depth to the flimsy writing. But how many times can you see the Doctor cry before it loses its impact? When the Eleventh had his "happy tears" moment it was earned, instead of the writers holding up a big metaphorical CRY NOW sign. I liked "73 Yards" the best this season because it was an intriguing story that didn't try to puppeteer your heartstrings, which is unfortunate since the Doctor wasn't given anything to do. Even in "Blink" he at least had a pivotal if minor role. (And I cry every time I watch the hospital sequence in "Blink" because it's so damned heart-breakingly tender.) Here it might have been any random fantasy story.

[@Maths4Morons]

We don’t know who Mrs Flood is? We don’t know much more about 73 yards, who created the circle, how was Ruby teleported back in time? How did it snow?(Some people think it’s because of Mrs Flood) I guess he’ll leave Moffat to do it. I swear RTD said he’ll wrap up all mysteries this season but I can’t see how it can.

[@TheCagedCorvid]

Oh he wrapped it up alright... he just used a plastic carrier bag and duct tape...

[@andybyrd4107]

Has everyone forgotten that RTD doesn’t just set up season long mysteries and also sets up multi-season long mysteries?

[@option3590]

73 Yards ain’t never getting explained. It was like Midnight; the point was the mystery. The snow might’ve been Sutekh himself going so schizo that it manifested as matter. Unless it was Mrs Flood’s doing. Which’ll presumably be next seasons arc.

[@davidroberts5250]

Why was Ruby's mum dressed up like she was cosplaying as the emperor from star wars? If she was dressed in a hoodie and tracksuit bottoms and trainers like a fifteen year old would wear it would of made more sense.

[@bootalophosaurus2378]

Tbf if I believe someone of any age choosing to just rock that dramatic of an outfit, I’d bet money on it being a teenager or young adult.

[@TheCagedCorvid]

He made it resemble the trickster, so people would talk about it... that's it. Misdirection. So he can tell us we're fools. Ugh...

[@davidroberts5250]

@@TheCagedCorvid this 💯

[@FrayRS]

Ruby making it snow not being explained at all should be classified as a war crime - absolute disaster of a finale.

[@Domihork]

Honestly, the title Empire of Death kind of reminds me of the Curse of Fatal Death. It sounds like a parody. I also agree with someone saying that the first episode should have been longer and ended after that death of the universe and the Doctor screaming. What I don't understand is how did RTD think that it's a good idea to bring the literal god of death and not have a single character die. NOBODY died in an episode about Death?! And yes, having two consecutive seasons being about dust rolling through the universe and destroying all life is... just boring. Sutekh being killed by the Time Vortex could have worked better if the Doctor re-introduced the fact that travelling in the Vortex without the TARDIS is deadly. The last time it was explained was in Utopia and then mentioned in passing in Time of the Doctor. Apart from the pointing and cloak, the mystery of Ruby's mom could be explained by the TARDIS fighting against Sutekh. She created the mystery, made it snow, played the song and caused the 73 yards episode to give Ruby memories of the Prime Minister to use in the finale. Oh and I agree that instead of Pyramid of Mars, Sutekh should have been there only since Flux or Wild Blue Yonder. (Preferably Flux, I'm tired of everything being connected to the salt. It's just salt ffs).

[@vullord666]

Except the parody had better writing 🙃🙃. I feel like RTD just needed someone to question him on equal footing. All of those are basic changes that would have made this finale so much more acceptable. I also can't believe not even the soldier from the Legend of Ruby Sunday stayed dead. At least in Series 3 everyone The Master killed prior to his big reveal and the paradox machine actually died (like his whole cabinet). It revealed him to be menacing and a threat. This is like if not even his (well Yana's) assistant was killed in Utopia and got magically brought back to life.

[@option3590]

Everyone DID die. Like, *everyone*. …they just got better. 🧐

[@RiceCracker87]

I think the Susan Triad's would've worked better if the Doctor and Ruby never noticed them in the previous episodes. Them noticing this woman popping up this season begs the question of why the Doctor has never noticed her before in his thousands of previous adventures. Would've been more fun as a mystery for the fans as well if they didn't get any answers until the end. Wouldn't even have to rewrite the finale too much, the Doctor can still head over to UNIT to sort out the Ruby's Mum mystery and the Susan stuff can unfold a bit more naturally. Would also explain why he chooses to do the time window stuff instead of dealing with triad technologies, which seems like a far more time sensitive priority.

[@option3590]

They explained that she got more conspicuous the longer Sutekh stayed in the TARDIS & the stronger Sutekh got. Hence why her first appearance wasn’t even within the Doctor’s line of sight, whereas by the finale she’s impossible to miss. In the broad strokes, there was an upward trend in her diegetic noticeability throughout the season. I thought it was actually very well done, in that respect. Far FAR more so than “the Impossible Girl”. I don’t recall Moffat writing in an explanation for why she’d never shown up before.

[@jingle2534]

I really don't understand how people can be excited to learn more about Mrs Flood after the truth behind Ruby's mother was revealed. I feel like I've been taught to actively avoid investing in any of RTD's mystery boxes.

[@wolfieeeee256]

There was 0 time to breathe in this series would be my main point, sadly.

[@DeclanCorey]

Can’t believe no one’s talking about the biggest mystery RTD failed to answer What happened to Azbantium level patron Nathan Gibson?

[@the_amazing_crappo]

Empire of Death wishes it was Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos

[@cement_eater]

too far

[@asutxrner]

honestly in the cinema i think the interval wasnt even a planned thing because the special message i watched from millie she spoke as if we hadnt watched the first episode of the 2 parter yet

[@kaiboennighausen3526]

I also kinda liked the way RTD upped the stakes in S1-4. It felt deliberate and mostly worked, though the cracks did start to show more and more as it got harder and harder to write a convincing resolution. This one makes the stakes higher than any previous RTD finale and it falls flat. I think in both RTD and Moffat finales, it says a lot that the smaller scale threats are mostly just better than the cosmic ones. Parting of the Ways does threaten humanity but it’s mostly just Satellite 5. Hell Bent is focused on the Doctor and his character. The Doctor Falls is one community of people on a ship.

[@michaelbeadle5156]

The cracks really started to show in S5

[@jonastrach8851]

​@@michaelbeadle5156I see what you did there....

[@Seb_Falkor]

The fuckin gun in the kids segway sent me while this whole dramatic death shit was going on. Same with the spinning doggo through space. It was just so bad and hilarious. Who is back baby!

[@adamburke4738]

It was seriously underwhelming and disappointing. Respectfully, anyone defending this finale is clearly bias towards Davies.

[@johnnypickering7688]

yeah, he really went too far with this one. I was willing to forgive the space jesus thing in series 3 because the rest of that three-parter was so great and it sort of semi made sense. i was willing to forgive the daleks being defeated by flicking some switches in series 4 because, again, the rest of that two--parter was so great. but this (as well as the tardis being cloned perfectly by being hit with a fucking hammer) is just too much even for my good faith

[@adamburke4738]

@ I can’t even forgive Bi-Generation, let alone buy a giant dog that’s a god hugging the TARDIS for decades.

[@johnnypickering7688]

@adamburke4738 oh mate, don't even get me started on bi-generation. It's worse than the sort of thing I'd come up with as a kid when playing with my toys

[@adamburke4738]

@ it was a cheap excuse to have Tennant in the back pocket in case Gatwa was received poorly, or at least that’s how it comes off.

[@johnnypickering7688]

@@adamburke4738 definitely, which is just pathetic. I can't believe the guy who wrote Midnight, Utopia, Turn Left and Waters of Mars (and many others) is the same guy doing all this

[@rozzgrey801]

Since he bigenerated it's like there are now two half doctors, neither good enough to be a whole doctor. It's metaphorical of how they have intentionally split the fans, divide and rule ethics.

[@fanthonyfictions]

Also with everyone dying and coming back, are they prepared to write in the downfall of every major religion? Torchwood spoke often about how death is empty and nothing. The only thing people experience if Anything, is an evil voice speaking to you. No Heaven.

[@billmcdermott9647]

Since susie was a villain and serial killer...I'm not sure we can trust her depiction of tye afterlife being for everyone

[@EXO-DM]

@@billmcdermott9647especially since at that time wouldn’t Missy’s whole afterlife thing be going on at the time?

[@georgewilliams4258]

Haven't watched Dr Who since Chibnal/Whittaker was happy to hear that RTD was coming back boy was I wrong.If people want to watch this fine but I'll pass.

[@fanthonyfictions]

@@billmcdermott9647 Do you trust Dr Owen Harper? He said pretty much the same thing. And everyone else they gauntlet was used on.

[@aljarv4795]

@@billmcdermott9647 there being a void after death was also confirmed by the Owen being dead arc in the show where he is pulled there a few times while his body is taken over by Death, and Suzie's statements corroborate this about there being something there which is presumably what Owen hears, and im sure a few times Captain Jack basically confirms this too 'nothing/black'

[@ThePonderer]

I never thought we’d get a finale I liked less than the Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, but here we are. At least Ranskoor was comparatively standalone, in a season full of standalone stories that wouldn’t be dragged down by its failure. It was criminally boring, but I’ll take an absence of good over a surplus of bad. Empire of Death exposes the foundational flaws at the heart of the whole season, and unlike Ranskoor has story decisions that make me genuinely angry and disappointed.

[@callumhaigh8233]

BORAK was just boring. This one did have something going for it but was let down by its resolutions

[@wyverntail3968]

I really really, feel like Sutekh should have been maybe a two season maybe three season villain, built up with little clues and hints dropped here and there but not overt that might have been better maybe still like em though

[@SpaceFluffDW]

I hope there’s consequences for the Doctor bringing “death to death”. Imagine the concept of death stops and everyone is alive. The doctor would have to fix it which would mean he would have to *kill* people.

[@lonelystarslibrary9326]

Like Torchwood season 4

[@TimelessThetaSigma]

Plot Twist; The Doctor caused Miracle Day

[@MrSukram777]

Reminds me of a Thor comic where Odin kills Hela and humanity being immortal turns problematic (overpopulation)

[@olived9560]

If you are interested in a DW story where that idea of death not existing is dealt with, I really recommend the novels “The Knight, the Fool and the Dead” and “All Flesh Is Grass” (from the Time Lord Victorius multimedia event a while back, though you don’t have to experience any other media to understand the books, especially the first)! It doesn’t follow what you said exactly but does follow something in the same vein, and I really recommend those in general.

[@option3590]

Sutekh isn’t the actual embodiment of death (we’ve actually met that before, in Torchwood of all places lel). He called himself that whilst he was mortal too. Dude’s just hyper-edgy & obsessed with the concept. So once he got ACTUAL godlike power he took his cosplay a step further.

[@SimonMoon5]

Not only is "Empire of Death" a stereotypical name for a Doctor Who episode, it's already been used as the name of a Doctor Who novel featuring the 5th Doctor.

[@Mohammedamine9.]

The way sutekh was defeated sucks

[@irontownpictures9283]

16:46 funny how they travel into the future that shouldn't exist. Everyone died in 2024, how could anyone possibly do anything in 2046?! RTD, hello?!

[@j.b.c.a.]

It's not that everybody died in 2024. Everybody died in 2024, and 2023, and 1963... everywhere the Doctor went, and any time the Doctor landed, everything dies. Timey-wimey stuff that allows 2046 to exist because the Doctor went there once to help take down Roger ap Gwilliam.

[@FoulOwlx]

That's a good point

[@davidrohde2636]

Tales of the tardis was filmed after empire of death, the remember tardis was created for empire of death and used to pack the 60th as they hadn't done enough

[@Lowehart]

I enjoyed the finale personally. Sutekh wasn't wasted - He is part of a pantheon, that it has been established work through harbingers. It seemed that Sutekh was stuck to the TARDIS at first, which would have made more sense as to why he wasn't doing things himself, like Maestro did, which sadly wasn't the case... But it's consistent at least. On the subject of the 'seen this destruction before', yes, we did see similar with Flux, but it didn't feel emotional at all in Flux. This time, they got it right. You raise a good point about Sutekh not being involved in anything such as the Time War, but... He IS the One Who Waits. So. It tracks. I LOVED the memory TARDIS interior. It was a wonderful little set. I liked the random lead related to the gloves, it's a callback to a situational thing the Doctor has, and expands on the technology like we've had with sonic tech. It also fits with Sutekh being UNDONE by going through the time vortex, it's a nice way to put everything back, which... Needs to happen. Remember, the Flux wasn't undone. The universe should be a tiny fraction of what it once was, but that hasn't been addressed. At all. It's as if it never happened. It's weak as hell. At least this EXPLAINS why the situation is undone, which needed to happen with the Flux. The reveal of her mother made sense in Doctor Who. It's just... A random, ordinary person. The second they revealed it, it couldn't have ever been anyone else. Doctor Who loves it's random, ordinary people suddenly being the most important person in existance, just for one brief moment. The beauty of it is integral to NuWho. As much as it would be interesting to have her mother be something else (my own theory was a time paradox where the memory TARDIS would include baby Ruby, and she would place herself there - which would explain Maestro's reaction to her, and why she can make it snow when she remembers the church, as time is memory and memory is time...), it feels... Fitting for NuWho. The pointing bit was stupid though. I can't defend that. Of all the companions, I think Ruby has had the happiest departure, though. She didn't... Lose anything. She just gained things. And I really don't want to see Susan reunited with the Doctor because it leads to further aknowledgement that the show doesn't care about Big Finish. Usually they leave it vague, but this meeting would absolutely have a conclusive response that kills some of it. Saying that, it will likely happen with all that buildup. The question is if they give it an episode, or just a footnote in an episode where he did it off-screen. All in all, I would say it was good. Not great, mind you - but good. Compared to Timeless Child and Flux? I'll take it.

[@triplejazzmusicisall1883]

If Mrs. Flood is Clara I will be one extremely angry individual. PLEASE do not let her be a beloved companion from the past.

[@FoulOwlx]

Imagine if it is Susan instead

[@MystM]

All it needed was a simple, Sutekh has only been on The Tardis since Wild Blue Yonder (Susan Twists first appearance and first Tardis groan sound) And the sand just escapes from the earth, not every planet the doctor landed on ever. Instead of overinflated the stakes it needed to make sense.

[@kaysi6605]

I do think that Sutekh's interest in the mother could have been actually explained quite easily giving it more context. For example he could have been interested because when she walked away from Ruby something died in her so that he saw her both as a life and dead which intrigued him so much, and because the tardis was never this close to something like this he got intrigued and obsessed, triggering all that snow anytime the Doctor and Ruby mentioned it causing the snow.

[@JoshWiniberg]

RTD really messed up here. Please just put the show out of its misery for 10 years and wait for some fresh talent to step up.

[@littleredruri]

Or actively look for some fresh talent instead of cycling through the members of a wilderness era fanclub. What, in ALL of britain no one wants to showrun doctor who? Have they looked??

[@MortexBerri]

@@littleredruri I’m American and i would love to showrun i got some crazy ideas

[@littleredruri]

@@MortexBerri give it to this guy he got some crazy ideas

[@vullord666]

Honestly this episode was about what I expected from this series finale and I hate that so much. I was so excited for Doctor Who to come back even after feeling warry from the return of RTD and the lackluster specials. This "new era" of Doctor Who is falling into so many pitfalls that turned people away from the previous era with the added benefit of pulling writing out of the Revival Series' "golden times" which doesn't look so golden without the nostalgia lenses (well actually I wish that was an excuse; people NEVER liked the Series 3 style finale, RTD should have learned). What's even worse going back in this season and realizing how much of the meh to bad writing was setup for this disappointing finale. Its not that it was all bad, but it was far worse than a return to Doctor Who needed to be. I did personally love the Doctor controlling the TARDIS with a whistle (though as he got it from the Memory TARDIS would have preferred if it was 2's flute) and that flight through the Time Vortex was stunning to look at. That's legit what I wanted from Series 3 Utopia with Jack hanging on. Alos, I find it insane they showed only Empire of Death in theaters. It would have been actually kinda hype if this was a full movie length finale shown in theaters. Trying not to speak on it too much (because there's so much that went wrong here), but a lot of this has felt like production issues and planning stage issues. I really wonder how much say Disney got for that, because the eight episode limit and how they were put together and ordered unnecessarily hurt the show a lot. It does feel like Disney wanted a serialized streaming focused original (like the comparison to Knuckles on Paramount+) when that's just fundamentally not what Doctor Who is. Then on the writing end it REALLY feels like there was no productive workshopping involved. Like everyone rolled with the first idea RTD blurted out and encouraged it. Which actually sounds likely. RTD (the legend who brought back Doctor Who and elevated it to mainstream global popularity) came back at a time when the show was in crisis mode. That has to create an unintended toxic work environment where no one really feels qualified to talk back to him. Looking back, the BBC probably should have gone for co-showrunners (RTD & Moffat) to keep things balanced. There's so many little things that could be changed to make this era better. Like if Giggle ended with 14 (Tennant) trapping the Toymaker & himself in a forever game like Dungeons and Dragons so we both have a better climax and less of a plot hole than two Doctors with their own TARDIS (wait so was Sutekh not also split?). Or having Sutekh revealed to return like the Toymaker in Wild Blue Yonder so we don't have to question why he waited through ELEVEN regenerations especially since this means he was involved in the time war (which RTD also created) a time when all of reality across all of time and space was very nearly destroyed (kinda his whole goal) and time was brittle enough that it was easy to take advantage of. Then there's stuff like RTD and trailers and official information immediately spoiling Ruby's return making her departure at the end of this episode feel so forced and hollow. Like so many small things could have been avoided to make the show more avoidable if someone just said "why" every now and then. This was also just so bad for "Season 1" and brand new viewers. I don't love that there's been more direct callbacks and reliance on old plots than ever. It used to be cute little easter eggs, not the Doctor literally rewatching an old episode, because a villain from 40 years ago is back as the big bad, and then solving it in the exact same way but with better visuals. I'm trying to be excited for the upcoming Christmas Special (especially with Moffat returning) and Series 15, but it's so hard. At this point I just hope Mrs. Flood isn't another major disappointment. Please for the love of god don't just have her "sitting" her entire finale.

[@MarcosSantos-dj6lk]

the Sith cloak in Ruby's mum was ridiculous and Ruby manifesting snow in reality was not answer ether

[@Awesome_Pichu]

Why not have Ruby's mother be a harbinger for Sutekh's eventual arrival, but she betrayed him and sent her daughter out a potential way to stop him. Maybe it'd explain why she couldn't be seen, when harbingers perform their duties, they disappear and any trace of her disappeared.

[@saltwell]

The Doctor in the doorway of the Tardis hurtling through the vortex makes no sense - surely it has no atmosphere? I also hate seeing the Tardis fly, since it was established back in 1963 that it dematerialises and reappears in its new location ("This doesn't roll along on wheels, you know!"). I always took the shots of the Tardis floating or flying through stars as a visual metaphor, until writers/directors used them so often that it became impossible to suspend that disbelief.

[@MaxleonoUEFN]

I think Sutehk was just waiting for the Doctor to actually reach all the corners of the universe, we saw that he is just a lazy boy that doesn't really want to go do it himself, that's why he has minions. It makes sense that instead of travelling to every single place himself, he just waits for the Doctor to travel to those places.

[@vullord666]

I mean that kinda doesn't work when we have Series 5 establishing the TARDIS already exists across all of space and time and blowing it up already gave Sutekh the "empire of death and silence" across all of reality he wanted. Then there's the time war which was threatening all of time and space across reality in a far more dangerous and permanent way. RTD's own explanation of it made it sound like the perfect time for Sutekh to have established his dominion.

[@josephf.4540]

Thank you so much for mentioning the “magical CRT screen” it drove me crazy!

[@morceaudebois]

I also love how that thing clearly is just an iPad in a fancy case if you look at the rounded corners!

[@donatist59]

The memory Tardis looked way better than the wheelchair accessible aluminium disco Tardis.

[@demonssinglosongs]

i agree that the episode was ridiculously underwhelming but the one thing i want to point out is that im pretty sure that there was quite literally nothing on the dna test screen. that’s why ruby dropping the screen feels somewhat satisfactory. ruby still doesnt understand it herself, why would sutekh? (another note, im glad you pointed out how goofy that one shot was. its awful and me and my friends found it so funny)

[@purplef0xx]

This could of been so much better if it was Ncuti's regeneration story and he used his regeneration powers to give Sutehk life, thus rendering his powers useless. Sutehk, as the god of all gods, should be a bigger villian

[@lonelystarslibrary9326]

Fuck that would've been good

[@chatsunami]

It’s such a shame because although they started off relatively strong in part one I have no idea what they were thinking with this one. Feels like they made a whole season of Clickbait and then called it a day.

[@cot1579]

Can you imagine if Ruby’s Mother was Clara? The ONLY person to ever defy Sutekh and live. Defied death itself.

[@conkubar4029]

the scene where all of unit is fighting for their lives and rose noble just starts nonchalantly playing subway surfers on her ipad

[@madeleinealiceross1463]

It really feels like they wrote this whole season on an episode by episode basis. All the story arcs don’t add up and don’t make sense. It’s a real shame. If they’d just looked at the whole season, they could have EASILY fixed some of these plot points. This season had some great episodes, Boom being one of my favourites, but it’s also had some really terrible writing, which has made me dislike the characters and not feel consistently invested in their stories. They only had 8 episodes, I understand, but they knew this too! Why didn’t they give us smaller arcs? Or an arc that was simpler with a better pay off? The thing that annoys me is that these are all so easily fixable! Either keep the legend of Ruby sunday and ditch susan twist, or keep susan twist and ditch the massive arc. I’d have rather Ruby not found her mother, than the reveal we got. It would have felt much better and much stronger. I’m looking forward to the next season, and I really hope they come back better, but I feel like Doctor Who isn’t a show I want to watch again. Maybe that’s due to age, my tastes have changed. Maybe ask a 12 year old and see how they feel, BUT I can happily go back and watch 9/10/and 11 and feel moved by their stories. Some good episodes, but also the terrible writing and character arcs was so disappointing.

[@benjp6949]

I think whats maor disappointing about this epsiode is the hooded figure from Ruby road, tne way ot was built up in the previous episode was really cool and chilling! I was expecting the figure yo turn out to be something sinister and not Ruby's mum, that would have been awesome albiet devastating for Ruby, the mystery of who her mum could've kept going!

[@kenthomas505]

Pretty much agree with everything about the finale, it was kind of a letdown that didn't have any lasting stakes or explain things in a logical way. It reminded me too much of the dusting from Infinity War and the whole "your parents aren't important" theme from Rise of Skywalker. It didn't stand on its own and we just had another Universe killing climax in Flux. In the end I just didn't care. And the whole Sutekh dog on a leash dying in the Time Vortex thing was just stupid. One small disagreement though. I don't think Name of the Doctor is worse as a finale or that the splinters of Clara was a worse idea. They could have been executed better by being drawn out shown more how Clara's splinters actually go about saving the Doctor throughout his time-line from the Great Intelligence, but it was definitely better than this. This series was a mixed bag, and the critics have really piled onto it. Who knows what the next series will be like. If it ain't great it could be the last one of Doctor Who if it gets canceled for a second time. That would be a shame. 😢

[@jdsranithinc]

Sutekh is a Bad Wolf (not actually a wolf, but close enough0

[@shmikex]

I really wish we had gotten to see the Sutekh form from the Pyramids of Mars (the form with the mask, not the dog head).

[@danielschmidt9116]

you do realize Matt Smiths doctor had to restart the universe with a second big bang and then waited this long to do it again.

[@RoyalKingOliver]

The fact that the main series arc was executed so well and everything came together in a neat and organized way makes this finale infuriating to me. And that’s with 9 episodes!!! Something great was obviously here, but oh my god did so many things go wrong between the writing, the acting, and just the execution of all of this. I really need a deep analysis on how this season failed because it’s an absolute storm of a bunch of things that brewed from the very beginning.

[@Borgopixel]

I initially thought what ruby was doing was what you said should have happened. Something where she sacrifices her knowledge because she wants her adoptive mom and family back most of all. Would have been stronger if her parentage was kept a secret for later on.

[@MSThalamus-gj9oi]

Wait... when did Cherry Sunday get her cup of tea? I must have missed that part. Dang, I missed the best bit! :(

[@alisonjane7068]

i honestly find it hard to believe that the writer that gave us so many satisfying interpersonal relationships during his previous tenure made a new series populated with characters like i liked just fine, but didn't really care about at all? and i'm the kind of person who gets super invested in that sort of drama. i love that shit!

[@SSJPENGUIN]

As there's so much that goes into getting a production like Doctor Who in motion, I rarely put much weight behind KZbinr's improvements/course-corrections but you're spot on regarding RTD's missteps when improving on the Rey parents thread thing

[@JagoHazzard]

There are two major changes I would have made. I liked the idea that Ruby's mother was only important because people believed it was, but it should have been clearer. Maybe have it stated that the Sith cloak and dramatic pointing was just a false memory, and we see the memory glitching back to what actually happened. And having established that the belief that something is more important than it is can affect reality, have the Doctor tell his allies that he is going to defeat Sutekh with nothing but a rope. And because they have faith that it will work, it does. With Maestro and the Toymaker, they were both defeated because they have to follow rules - well, here's Sutekh also being defeated because of his own rules. The entire season is tied together.

[@Sir_Gerald_Nosehairs.]

I enjoyed Bonnie Langford. If you ever watch "Terror of the Vervoids", she's actually good in it. She had a far better dynamic with Colin Baker (bright and perky vs smug and sarcastic) than she did with McCoy in his original 3 Stooges phase. RTD is good at build up, even the hatewatch channels admitted the first part was alright. But he consistently ballses up the finale. He's too fond of Macguffins and handwaving. He literally had Rassilon handwave away "the Master race"! Someone else with more of a mind for science fiction needs to be working on the show. "Impossible rope" turned into a leash for the naughty doggo for God's sake..? That's only a short step away from The Doctor whacking Sutekh over the snout with a rolled-up newspaper and calling him a naughty boy.

[@iamverylazywithnames4528]

Honestly, the final episode would probably work very well as a satire parody of doctor who, what with all the lampshading and "impossible" things. Too bad it isn't parody and is instead a canon episode, written by a professional

[@samrudman7839]

This is the exact reason there should have been a hiatus after the 13th Doctor. Cos Dr who isn’t Dr Who anymore

[@arandombard1197]

I saw the 'Sutekh on the TARDIS' as it just being his loose essence slowly reforming and gathering strength. He only became conscious and aware in the last season, which is why Mrs Flood has begun appearing.

[@umwha]

Personally, I was thinking the mother would turn out to be Melanie. It seemed strange that Melanie was highlighted so much, and got to come along in the Tardis with DR and Ruby. She's not relevant in any way. So I thought she'd turn out to be the Mother. Maybe their Mother Daughter relationship would be key in defeating Sutekh. He's the god of death, but Mothers create life, so maybe it'd be something like Melanie is ordered to Dust Ruby to Death, but she's able to resist it because Melanie was the one who gave Ruby life, and therefore Sutekhs power is neutralised, giving Ruby and Melanie a chance to destroy him.