The Most Mysterious Ancient Technologies Lost to Time

[@justinanderson267]

We don't need pangagans. Dude over at demolition ranch ziptied four shotguns together to make a quad gun. Then he ziptied two quad guns together.

[@TonyisKing343]

😮😮😮 al wall you dont wanna walk into

[@bananaberrylemon6316]

And now the UFC fights happen in that dudes creation

[@Joe_Dirt82]

America made THE THING. A tank with 6 bazookas and 6 50cals strapped to it. Fat electrician just did video bout it.

[@Yupppi]

We also have existing quad shotguns without zipties.

[@KillEmAllContent]

Science!

[@Onithyr]

Everyone wants to harp on the invention of the wheel while ignoring the far more difficult to engineer invention that makes it so useful in the first place: the low-friction load-bearing axle. Without the axle, the best use-case you have for the wheel is putting logs under a heavy load and replacing them from the back to the front as the load is pushed forward.

[@discomallard69]

Or the cock ring

[@jamesknapp64]

As a kid I always wondered how axels worked baring the load and keep turing without knoching

[@jscotthatcher380]

​@@jamesknapp64...i still wonder.

[@FistandFootMartialArts]

IKR?

[@evildinobot]

True. I’ve also always felt this.

[@killman369547]

The process of making true Damascus steel was rediscovered fairly recently, there's a whole documentary about it. Turns out there is a trace amount of Vanadium in the iron ore that came from Syria which is what's responsible for the Damascus pattern. It also needs a fairly specific smelting process but the vanadium is the real key.

[@Menuki]

The Damascus steel mythos is heavily exaggerated. There’s this cognitive disconnect that we can solve crimes thru forensics using a GCMS, but couldn’t figure out what’s in steel? What we don’t understand is how they hardened, tempered, and annealed it. At its core, it’s still a type of crucible steel and our current technology has exceeded it. The hardening, tempering, and annealing is the key to producing a superior weapon. You can take the finest steels today and turn out garbage if you mishandle them.

[@cesaravegah3787]

I was about to write just that, that special iron ore was the piece that was missing from the puzzle, so glad that technology was recovered

[@tylercoleman9218]

Haven’t heard about this vanadium theory but it does make great sense since vanadium steel alloy are known to be the best alloy of steel in terms of hardness while still retaining high malleability flexibility and a great resistance to corrosion. I’m glad you mentioned this.

[@rubiconnn]

@@tylercoleman9218 There is no "best" alloy. Different metals have different applications and simple smiths from thousands of years ago certainly couldn't make better steel than current technology can.

[@IPostSwords]

Vanadium is not the only historical carbide forming elements in crucible steels that can lead to a pattern. some historical swords made of pattern forming crucible steels lack any detectable levels of it - see the Voigt blade, in the Pendray/Verhoeven paper. Crucible steel was made in many places, with many compositions. Not just Indian, or just Syria. It spanned from turkmenistan to iran to india to sri lanka and more.

[@sarahalramezi]

Regarding Damascus blades, I'm an Arab and I don't claim that I've studied Arab weaponry, however whenever someone mentions the best of the best qualities of blades in poetry and even some prayers, they were always Indian blades, not Damascus blades. I'm not discrediting the Syrian craftsmanship (they are one of the best), I just find it interesting that the Arab themselves don't mention their own blades as much as the Indian ones.

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

Many such swords were imported through Damascus, so they were labeled as from the city even though they originated farther away.

[@PahadiSher]

Just like the modern number system. Even the great arab & persian mathematicians clearly mentioned their Indian sources. The Westerners love to create confusion, I guess.😂

[@akkkkk813]

Interesting and this is the case with the model number system as 😂

[@garethbaus5471]

Most of the historical blades referred to as "Damascus" blades by westerners were probably made in India. It is historically common for things to be named after where you get them rather than where they originated.

[@TD1237]

Yeah, that's true. Most historians conclude Damascus (or Wootz) originated in South India, made by Tamil blacksmiths. The Tamils traded extensively with all sorts of empires, including Rome, Greece and the Middle East, and the Wootz blades were highly prized possessions.

[@iron_side5674]

Lars Anderssen actually has demonstrated that Pnjagan was probably a technique, not firing all arrows at the same time, but rather giving them arcs so that all arrows arrive at the same time. Much like the Panzerhaubitze 2000 does with it´s shells, creating one BIG impact.

[@vane909090]

Wouldn't firing arrows at different arcs produce different distances if fired from the same position?

[@iron_side5674]

@@vane909090 Exactly. But you do not have to draw the bow fully. The PzH 2000 actually uses different strengths of charges when doing so. But where you need a computer for the firing solution on an artillery, you can learn to intuitively shoot arrows in this way.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

LARS is a LEGEND!! Love his Work!

[@garethbaus5471]

​@@vane909090If you adjust the draw lengths you can hit a single target with different arcs.

[@davedavidson8208]

the only problem I have with that is that I'm pretty sure people in the past would have been able to differentiate between an actual weapon, and a martial technique. especially once theyve been beaten. they weren't stupid, as much as we as modern people like to think they were.

[@o0CarlM0o]

You could have added Roman concrete to the list too. It's another one that's mostly been solved now, I think, but very very recently. Great video, thank you.

[@dopeymark]

Yes, it's been solved. I just watched a whole show on it.

[@Anthony_Gutierrez]

And they found out the concrete we know how to make is actually stronger.

[@alexsolomon7991]

@@Anthony_Gutierrez so I guess that means that most modern companies just prefer the cheap crappy stuff then?

[@Oleandra-13]

​@@Anthony_Gutierrez I think the biggest benefit of the Roman concrete was in saltwater applications like piers and seawalls. They also didn't use rebar like modern concrete, so that would prevent a lot of the internal rotting that causes collapses like Surfside.

[@wpjohn91]

Salt water and volcanic ash was the secret wasnt it?

[@richtravis9562]

Roman flexible Glass: I was thinking, and I'm fairly certain They could have alchemically produced Nitrocellulose, which is the basis for many types of plastic. Clear, flexible, can be bent back into shape. If you didn't know that plastic existed, what would you call a bowl made out of it? flexible glass. if this is the answer, I guess we can be kind of glad they banned it, due to some of the other properties/.

[@KriLL325783]

Yeah there are other kinds of plastic that could have been made with the materials they had at the time as well, like most of these just because we don't know exactly what it was, dosn't mean we haven't re-invented it already.

[@brianhirt5027]

Mica peeled off natural sources & formed into a bowl seems more likely. But in any case the story is probably apocryphal.

[@tiki_trash]

Nitrocellulose is the first thing I thought of too.

[@jasminerochas-oq8jw]

Nitrocellulose is very flammable at high temperature and glass is made at high temperature.😅

[@hizaleus]

Nitrocellulose combined with a plasicizer (originally camphor) was an early plastic, notably used in photographic film.) However, it was in no way an ingredient or precursor to more modern plastics.

[@rashkavar]

The naval history channel Drachinifel did an episode on Greek Fire that I hightly recommend if you want some more depth. He's an engineer by training, and has worked with volatile chemicals in the past, so he did some testing and came up with an extremely nasty formulation that seems like a pretty good candidate for what Greek Fire was, in terms of behaving as described in the direct records of its use. Unless we discover some alchemist student's cheat sheet on the formulation for Greek fire that was supposed to never be written down, though, there's no real way to prove it correct. So it's just an viable formula for giving dramatic demonstrations of what it might have been like to face that kind of weapon in battle. But yeah, if you want to see a naval historian engineer nearly burn his hair off testing hypothetical formulations for the medieval equivalent of Napalm...very much an interesting watch.

[@PacMonster0]

The Damascus steel section shares many of the common misconceptions and incorrect information the Scishow video on Demascus steel that was pulled had. The paper stating carbon nano-tubes were found in the period demascus blades has since been refuted. And most of all, the "formula" for demascus steel isn't lost. The specific wootz steel source the blades were made from was unknown for a long time but not the knowledge of how to make the swords. I strongly suggest people watch Shadiversity's video on this subject as he directly goes over the incorrect claims in it. Also, as others in the comment section have noted, many of the b-roll shots of "demascus steel blades" are just pattern welded blades.

[@KuK137]

I wish people stopped quoting S-moronity, he is wrong in over half of his videos and being borderline incel screeching when he sees women in movies doesn't help either...

[@nymphrodellsalavin]

While I agree that a certain S KZbinr is a problem, the Damascus steel issue isn't false. There's a lot of misinformation around Damascus and if you aren't aware of that going in it can be hard to find the truth. Giving credit to Kevin here, even though he made a mistake he did a much better job researching it then Scishow did in their video.

[@PacMonster0]

@@KuK137 You not liking Shad has nothing to do with the information provided regarding demascus steel. Learn to evaluate information critically without just assuming things.

[@IPostSwords]

@KuK137 It's worth noting that shads video was co-written by me. So if you really want to blame someone for perceived inaccuracies, I'm your guy.

[@nymphrodellsalavin]

@@KuK137 It's also worth noting that Kevin has been interacting with the community on r/simonwistler regarding the Damascus issue.

[@sesshowmarumonoke]

Actually, we did relearn how to make damascus steal. Turns out the blacksmiths didn't forget how to do it, they simply ran out of the proper ore and the method was lost. But with recent discoveries and rediscoveries, it is possible to recreate the metal alloy with the exact properties necessary for damascus steel.

[@MrMockingbird1313]

Hey Simon, Here are two technology questions which have neve been answered, that may interest you. #1. Old Question. Some years back the Louvre Museum was remodeling. Someone bumped the podium with a prized crystal vase. The wine colored vase had been crafted by Leonardo. It fell to the floor and bounced! It did not shatter because it was made of what is believed to be phenelic plastic resin. This was about 500 years before modern science invented the stuff. You explain this please, no one else has been able. #2. New Question. Heavy duty iron brake drums are only produced in a few plants around the world. I trucked these creations from a plant in Rockford Illinois. They cast and forged drums with 7 kinds of iron. Apparently the stuff should have produce about the same results. But for some reason the very best result, by an order of magnatude, was drums made from Brazilian iron ore. These drums are made the same as the others, but have a very different performance. Science can only speculate why this happens. This work is done today.

[@peteconrad2077]

I think it’s vanishingly unlikely that science doesn’t know why Brazilian iron has it’s particular properties since analysing the precise chemistry and physical composition of a sample is a simple task with commonly available technology.

[@yeetghostrat]

iron from different sources have unique chemical compositions. It's pretty much impossible to exactly replicate each type.

[@damianrussell7541]

Hello there, excuse me I'd like to look further into your two questions, could you give me a bit more information to go on such as names dates or anything else useful, please and thank you

[@ARabidPie]

My first guess for the vase is that someone swapped it out for a fake at some point.

[@notDonaldFagen]

​@@yeetghostratiron is an element. There are no forms of iron. There are only alloys that can vary in mixtures. The varying qualities in ancient irons are accidental alloys attributed to whichever regions that naturally were mined and cast and were never pure iron and just happened to have other elements that remained in the process that happened to result in more ideal alloys than others.

[@itsamindgame9198]

Another "ancient metalurgists didn't know what they were doing" claim, when they in fact knew not only how to add carbon, but how to remove carbond as well. They could closely manage the carbon content through a variety of processes depending on the use to which it was going to be put. They most certainly knew what they were doing. Also, wootz steel was crucible steel and was not limited to India as its source.

[@redonslaught3019]

When he says "they didn't know" I think he's more referring to the science behind the prosses, they obviously knew the how to do things but it's the why. Like they know that if you mixed metals at high temperatures you can make an alloys, but not why they bonded or see the nanotubes in this case... Wasn't meant like in Ancient Aliens saying they were stupid privatives so how could they do such things, just they likely didn't see beyond the it's real good steel.

[@staggeredpotato6941]

They knew how to add carbon...without knowing what carbon is or why it worked to strengthen steel...nor did they understand why heat had the effect it has on matter. Pythagorian numbers were known since the time of the babylonians...but the ancients had no idea why it is true until the greeks provided a proof. Chinese gunpowder was invented by accident by attempts to find a potion of immortality without understanding chemical bonds,the atmoic theory of matter,etc so yes...ancient ppl did not know why something worked...but ignorance was no obstacle to utility .

[@peaceweapon1933]

If you actually listen to the whole sentence without adding your own bias, you’d probably actually understand what the dude was saying

[@itsamindgame9198]

@@peaceweapon1933 Well thanks for assuming so much, but I actually did listen to the whole sentence and I did understand what he was saying. The fact is that the technical skills employed required some underlying understanding. Not couched in the way we would today, they certainly knew how to manage carbon content specifically. They knew what they were doing - which is the point.

[@leftyeh6495]

​@@itsamindgame9198 they knew what they were doing and how to do it They didn't necessarily know the molecular science involved. They knew certain ores were better, and how to make it harder or softer, but not necessarily why it worked. Because it worked they didn't ask questions, they just perfected their craft

[@GhostOfSnuffles]

Alfred Pandray proved it was not the use of organic carbon that resulted in Wootz Damascus but trace elements in the raw ore. He was able to not only to recreate Wootz of identical to the surviving examples we have but became so adept at the process he was able to create different grades of the material by trying different types of ores and smelting processes. Dr. John Verhoeven followed Pandray's work for almost ten years documenting his progress and wrote a book about it "Damascus Steel Swords: Solving the Mystery of How to Make Them".

[@bdeblier]

Came here to mention Pendray & Verhoeven.

[@Wolfe911]

So I just read the whole article. He did replicate it, but he did not make it. Replication is not authentic, but he is the closest I could find to the authentic steel.

[@PacMonster0]

​@@Wolfe911...what does this statement even mean? "Replication is not authentic". Of course they couldn't will a "new" thousand year old sword into existence. By definition any modern recreation wouldn't be "authentic". The point is what they made was nearly identical in metellurgic composition to the ancient examples we have on record, proving how to make them is not some lost art.

[@garethbaus5471]

​@@Wolfe911Lol, that is like saying that I didn't actually make a spoon because it was a replica of another spoon. If something is chemically, visually, and mechanically indistinguishable from historical Damascus steel then it is Damascus steel regardless of who made it or how it was made.

[@HayTatsuko]

One of my favorite weapons lost to time is the macuahuitl, a wooden club with obsidian blades set into the edges. There aren't any existing original examples of these slashing weapons, but the Conquistadores were suitably impressed, even claiming that a native warrior armed with a macuahuitl could nearly sever a horse's head from its body in one well-executed blow. I'm not quite sure I believe that, but I certainly do believe a single blow could mortally wound a horse, or convince a human enemy to surrender after suffering horrific gashes upon their person.

[@eugenesis8188]

Isn't obsidian supposed to be able to have a cutting edge that is literally one atom thick? Idk, that sounds like it'd be incredibly brittle and easy to break, but it also sounds like you could drop it and sever your foot. That would be a dope episode of mythbusters.

[@salvadortorres7449]

Getting sliced by a row of blades that can split cells in half does not sound fun.

[@dragoncutlery]

Heads arnt that hard to sever/remove the biggest problem is thats a lot of follow through but doable

[@MeanBeanComedy]

How is it lost to time? Don't we have recreations based on contemporary accounts?

[@MeanBeanComedy]

​@@eugenesis8188 Monument Mythos Moment.

[@MantisShrimp80]

One small omission with regards to Damascus steel. Wootz steel ingots were made in Sri Lanka as well (introduced by a South Indian metallurgists). The reason that this technique was lost was because both cultures have a "culture" of not being able to gauge fair pay for work (especially skilled). In Sri Lanka they had an improved technique where they did this during the monsoon season and from all accounts the work wasn't easy. Almost certainly this isn't because they ran out of a certain ore.

[@justinsmith4562]

sure mate

[@Arasa왕]

Not some South Indian metallurgist but Tamil Cheras. Srilanka got prosperity because of Tamils only. Besides Tamils are the natives of Srilanka. Tamils were undefeated till they died fighting with in and left none to rule in 12 century AD is why muslims and Telugus invaded. Even the current ruling parties of Sinhalese are mixed race Telugus in Sri Lanka. Funny how everyone taking credit of our culture.

[@stealthworx4371]

@@Arasa왕 Nice alternate reality lmao. This is like certain black people saying WE WUZ KANGZ lol Tambapanni (ancient Sri Lanka) was on record trading with Greeks and romans well before your 12th century fairytales. "Muslims and Telugus invaded" bro what?? Provide a single shred of historical or archeological evidence that proves a "Muslim and Telugu invasion". This is recorded history you are trying to rewrite lmao

[@dangalladon8417]

@@justinsmith4562 are you hurt? keep crying

[@PahadiSher]

​@@Arasa왕weren't Cheras Kerelites?

[@garethbaus5471]

We figured out how to replicate Damascus steel in the late 90s, the key was in using an ore that naturally had vanadium and melting iron made from it in a sealed crucible with a specific mix of fluxes and carbon. Also, another potential candidate for 'flexible glass' could be a simple plant derrived polymer.

[@ostlandr]

As Simon mentioned, probably 99% of "Damascus" blades being made and sold nowadays are just pattern-welded common steel. I once had a chance to buy a sword blank (finished blade, not fitted with a hilt) made of the same HY-100 steel that went into the hulls of the US Navy's Seawolf class submarines. The bladesmith told me he'd guarantee the blade to a depth of 500 meters. 🙂 Foolishly, I let it pass.

[@garethbaus5471]

@@ostlandr That is a separate issue from whether or not we can replicate the historical technology.

[@WolfyRealm]

​@@garethbaus5471 what did Vanadium do if you Can confirm

[@garethbaus5471]

@@WolfyRealm It is a carbide former that helped create the visible pattern.

[@conjandysecurity]

Remember, only you can prevent a forest fire.... only you.

[@mr.joshua6818]

I can't handle that level of responsibility.

[@ChrisSmith-ec6qp]

​@@mr.joshua6818 Good. He was talking to you. Phew.

[@mr.joshua6818]

@@ChrisSmith-ec6qp I'm not qualified for this! And how am I supposed to guard EVERY forest?

[@imnotyourfriendbuddy1883]

"Only who can prevent forest fires?" "You have selected you, as in me, you are wrong."

[@mr.joshua6818]

@@imnotyourfriendbuddy1883 I'm not your buddy, guy.

[@sumukhhegde7161]

Regarding wootz steel, indian metallurgy is a fascinating study. To say "they clearly had no idea whatbthey were doing" is a fascinating statement. And why everything about india is played down except the caste system, in the west, is intriguing to say the least!

[@dawnmoriarty9347]

They clearly knew exactly what they were doing. Using exhaustively tried and tested methods to achieve their aim. It frequently aggravates me to hear/see "primitive historical" patronized like this. "We Stand Upon the Shoulders of Giants" always seems apt to me since most people currently alive can't work from first principles to develop something useful

[@TD1237]

I feel like they would say "they knew precisely what they were doing" and "they were masters of nanotechnology" if it originated in Greece or Rome.

[@daveg-Vancouver_Island]

@@TD1237🤦🏻‍♂️ wow, get over yourselves lol what a bunch of whiners!

[@supersaiyan460]

​@@daveg-Vancouver_Island why are you crying kid

[@Nuck-Fo0bZz]

Vanadium. That was the missing part of Damascus steel. We've known that for a couple of years now I believe.

[@cybersandoval]

an article in Scientific American decades ago about the process

[@kalandarkclaw8892]

​@cybersandoval well you can't expect Simon to give anything with the word "American" in it any credit.

[@thalastianjorus]

The _INGREDIENTS_ have not been a mystery for a long time. We still cannot recreate Wootz steel, however. The mystery was never the ingredients - other than to those outside metallurgical work. Its the technique to actually make the Wootz steel. We have been trying to replicate it for centuries, and still can't. The alloy is not the only aspect to making a type of steel. Not at all.

[@KickRox]

This channel is full of misinformation.

[@pranc236]

There was a team that more recently re created wootz steel. Trace amount of valatium was what they found to be the best alloying element and it came from the ore itself.

[@killman369547]

Vanadium

[@IPostSwords]

Vanadium is not the only historical carbide forming elements in crucible steels that can lead to a pattern. some historical swords made of pattern forming crucible steels lack any detectable levels of it - see the Voigt blade, in the Pendray/Verhoeven paper.

[@pamelamays4186]

Greek Fire. A cool name for a Mediterranean smooth jazz quartet.🎷🎺🎹🎸

[@timfriday9106]

yeah, we basically figured out greek fire, and a lot of stories about how impossible it was to put out were over exaggerated. It's basically napalm. which can stay ignited on water. water would still put it out, but it could spread the naptha as well, giving the view that it spread the fire, even though the water did still put out some/most of it. something that was harder when u had to use buckets and not hoses.

[@chrisyanover1777]

The one mysterious technology I want to know is how Simon keeps his beard so glorious?? Hopefully that technology doesn't get lost to history!

[@iron_side5674]

It´s probably his beard oil :P

[@MangaMaster13]

Beard Blaze.

[@somethinglikethat2176]

Rumour has it that he sacrificed his ability to grow hair on his head for that magnificent beard.

[@yeetghostrat]

beard blaze. my dad has a bottle (present from me). he doesn't use it though because he's lazy.

[@sgholt]

@@somethinglikethat2176 lol

[@DomDomTheFirst]

One answer that could explain all of these, and its something that you still see to this day, which is that advertisers exaggerate qualities.

[@erok268]

I imagine the crude oil got heated up in a semi sealed container or still with a condenser with a non flame heatsource, (coal/charcoal) then petroleum products that were left, or distilled back into a liquid, mix it with pitch, to a homogenous slurry to the disired viscosity since petroleum will dissolve pitch. This wouldn't explain water causing ignition but I feel like it could be tested and get similar results. Idk where you can buy crude oil.

[@NikoMoraKamu]

you can steal it , there's a lot of "ilegal" refineries for example in Nigeria and other oil producer countrys , they do exactly what you say but they normally dont care about the non flame heatsource or any kind of safety

[@ostlandr]

When my Granddad first worked in the foundry industry during the first world war, the "old timers" told him that there had been a method of hardening copper to the point it could be used to (for example) cut stone, which had been lost. We do know that the ancient Egyptians used copper tools to cut the stones for the pyramids- but how? "Everybody" knew copper was too soft, even with "work hardening." Sure enough, a metallurgist reverse engineered it in the 1950s, but by then copper was in huge demand for electricial uses, and steel was cheap and ubiquitous.

[@itachiaurion3198]

Several mounth later but i want to input my little knowledge about. We know that they used sand to cut stone. By puttin the sand under a tool and doing a sawing movement you could cut heavy big stone in two with good precision. That's one of the way we know how they cut those stones. We recreate this method and it work, it's not quick but still good enough. I don't think it could be better 5000 years ago. I don't know about the copper part.

[@pirateadam3686]

Isn't this like Roman Concrete? It lasts waaaayyy longer and is all around better, but the best reason we have for it is "something to do with seawater in it, maybe?"

[@slktool]

The science for Roman concrete has been revealed. For years scientists thought it was something to do with the chemical compounds but the "self healing" attribute of Roman concrete is due to the mix not being super thorough leaving minute layers of unmixed cement which when say an earthquake hits fissures form then water seeps in hits the unmixed bits then flows into the crack. For all this time until a few months back scientists just thought those unmixed flecks were accidentally left in because of the "crude" mixing. Some scientists finally left the mix "crude" and they got the concrete to behave the exact same way as say the Collesiums concrete.

[@yeetghostrat]

they actually confirmed it was a specific mud that coincidentally made its way into the mix. they probably didn't even realize it. we're close to replicating it, but the mud itself no longer exists, so we can't get a pure sample to analyze

[@tiki_trash]

I thought it had something to do with volcanic ash from Mt. Etna.

[@albruitstuart8408]

There are a couple papers that came out in the last 2 years on this. One, they used a lot of volcanic ash. Two, they used quicklime. Three, they used saltwater to mix the slurry. The combination of all of these causes the large chunks of lime to disilve slightly when wet and then fill in the micro fractures and resolidify, creating a self healing concrete!

[@mjouwbuis]

@@yeetghostrat I think coal ash or something similar almost exactly replicates the self healing/sealing effect. There's a recent youtube video on it by some other creator.

[@jsinope2786]

What a fascinating idea for a video! Great job guys! No wonder you guys are the best.

[@Wooargh]

omg litraly yes hi-5

[@JFGreen13]

Appreciate your content on every channel!! Gets me focused on my work!

[@Gamefreak8112]

Damascus was done because they lacked modern techniques in metallurgy, we can do better than the romanticized steel.

[@GrouchierBear]

Huh, the story of the flexible glass bowl sounds almost exactly, beat for beat, like a story I read in an old time life book, except that book described the bowl as being flexible silver and presumed it was an ancient form of aluminium. Everything else was the same, including the demonstration of throwing it on the floor, knocking out the dent with a hammer, and the ruler executing him to protect the value of gold and silver. Sigh, now my brain's going to be wrapped up googling trying to figure out the disconnect.

[@garethbaus5471]

Regular silver bowls could have dents knocked out like that if you annealed them. If this was a historical account it could have been literally any metal worker trying to con a king for a quick buck.

[@IPostSwords]

"True" Damascus isnt a lost art. But hey, at least one photo you used (mine) was of actual crucible steel. First of all, let's clarify what I mean when I say "True Damascus Steel", because it is very easy to become mired in definitions and ambiguity. **"Damascus steel" usually refers to two main types of steel**: The most common you'll see made today is "**pattern-welded steel**", where alternating layers of nickel rich and nickel deplete steel are stacked, forge welded, and **folded** or manipulated to create a pattern. The blade is then polished and etched to reveal the layers. While modern pattern welded blades typically use nickel containing steels to maximise contrast, historically this was not the case. This method of construction using stacked, folded or otherwise forge welded, dissimilar* steels is how the majority of sword steels were made, worldwide, until advances in technology allowed for the use of more homogenous steel products. Pattern welding, and variants such as multibar patterns and laminated blades, were used widely and includes swords like spatha, “viking” swords, katana and more. It is worth noting that even "monosteel" swords which were made without the use of dissimilar steel, but still made from bloomery or refined blast furnace steel, were also subject to similar stacking, folding and forge welding techniques. *Bloom is here considered to contain multiple dissimilar steels due to the heterogeneous nature of bloom. In the present day, this is the type you will see chef’s knives, swords, and even pocket knives being made of, and it can range from being rather cheap to incredibly expensive depending on the materials and workmanship. The other type of "Damascus Steel" is a form of hypereutectoid, pattern forming **crucible steel.** And that is what I will be discussing today. It is what is referred to in your video as true damascus steel. It is a hypereutectoid steel, which means that it has over 0.8% carbon by definition. It is formed by liquifying steel in a crucible, and is **NOT** **produced by folding** or layering steel. The typical composition is around 1% to 2% carbon, which by modern standards makes this an “ultra-high carbon steel”, often abbreviated as UHCS. It is formed by melting steel with specific impurities in a crucible (historically, made of high kaolin content clay, rice husks as chaff, quartz sands, and other additives), and the process of turning this crucible “charge” into steel is quite complicated, with the potential for failure to produce an attractive pattern being high if any part of the process is not conducted correctly. In summary, the crucible charge is brought up to melting temperature, and held at this temperature for a while, allowing the constituent alloying elements present in the steel to spread and bubbles to boil out. It is then slowly cooled, before the ingot is removed, roasted to decarburise the rim, drawn out into a bar, manipulated to produce a surface pattern with ball peens, wedges and grinding, and finally forged it into a blade, and thermally cycled. As stated, this steel is typically the range of carbon content is between 1 and 2% in historical examples, and thus melts in a temperature range between 1200 and 1400c (for more information, see “iron carbon phase diagrams”). It must also have sufficient levels of carbide formers (vanadium, molybdenum, manganese etc) in order to form patterns (Verhoeven et al, 1998,. Verhoeven et al 2018). The pattern in crucible steel are formed by "rafts" of steel rich in carbide formers, where ultra-hard cementite spheroids form over subsequent forging cycles, which etch bright, and areas devoid of carbide forming elements (CFEs), which remain as pearlite, a soft mix of carbides which etches dark. The shape and size of the rafts is determined by the length of dendrites that form during the slow cooling of the ingot, as dendritic regions of the steel are carbide former depleted, and interdendritic regions are carbide former rich (Verhoeven et al, 2018). Many people conflate pattern-welded steel with crucible steel, and call both “Damascus”. Whilst this is accepted in colloquial language, it is important to distinguish between the two - particularly when it comes to identifying antiques, or documenting them. "Damascus" can therefore be used to refer to either pattern welded, or crucible steels, as both are pattern-forming steels, but it is best to specify which sort of "Damascus" is being discussed. The term has been used historically to describe both pattern-welded steel and crucible steel. Many swords and gun barrels made in germany were marked "damastahl" in the 18th and 19th century, and they were pattern welded, so there is historical precedent for such a naming convention, but the two techniques (and end products) are very different. **To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: "True" damascus steel is herein used as a term to refer to historical, patterned crucible steel. I am using this term entirely because it is understandable. The correct naming and etymology is discussed later. Both pattern welded and crucible steel blades can be called "damascus", and were historically, but the "lost" form is the crucible steel form.**

[@IPostSwords]

**The Myth: "Damascus Steel is a Lost Art":** The is quite a long history of crucible “Damascus” steel, in the form of primary sources in which the process was written down - as early as 350BCE - 420BCE Zosimus, an early alchemist in Alexandria, wrote the following: >"The tempering of Indian Iron: Take 4 pounds of soft iron, and the skins of myrobalans, called elileg, 15 parts; belileg, 4 parts; and two parts of glassmakers magnesia. Then place it into a crucible and make it level. .... Put on the charcoal and blow the fire until the iron becomes molten and the ingredients become united with it. ... Such is the premier and royal operation, which is practiced today and by means of which they make marvelous swords. It was discovered by the Indians and exploited by the Persians". This is by no means the only method to make crucible steel - some was co-fusion, using both cast iron and bloom, while some was indeed made with bloomery and carbon bearing material (often plants). Incidentally, the oldest known crucible steel sword is from the 6th to 3rd century BCE and was found interred in a megalithic site in Thelunganur, Tamil Nadu, India (Ramesh et al, 2019) and daggers from \~500BCE have been found with the associated production site in Kodumanal, Tamil Nadu (Sasisekaran & Rao, 1999. Sasisekaran, 2002). This is consistent with the Zosimus account describing the technique as discovered by India. The Islamic writers al-Kindi (full name Abu Ya'qub ibn Ishaq al-Kindi - circa 800CE - 873CE) and al-Beruni (full name Abu al-Rayhan Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Biruni - circa 973CE - 1048CE) both wrote detailed procedures for the production of crucible steel, too. ⁠This is how Biruni described it in the manuscript Al-Jamâhir Marefat al-Jawâher. (From Khorasani et al, 2013): >“He says that they \[ironwokers\] include five ratl رطل of \[horse\] shoes, the nails of which are made of narmâhan نرمآهن\] in the crucible\]. Then they add ten derham درهم of each \[of the ingredients\] rusaxtaj روسختج\] antimony\], marqiša-ye talâ’i طلائى مرقيشا\] golden marcasite\] and meqnesiyâ مغنسيا\] meqnisiyâ مغنيسيا ;manganese dioxide MnO2\] to the crucible, close the crucible with clay, and put it in the furnace. Then they fill the furnace with charcoal and blow air with Rumi (Roman Byzantine/Anatolian) bellows that are pumped by two men until the iron melts. Then they add a combination of halile هليله) myrobalan), pust-e anâr انار پوست) pomegranate peel), melh al-ajeyn ملحالعجين) the salt used for dough), and sadaf-e morvarid مرواريد صدف) pearl shell). From each the same amount approaching forty derham درهم are placed into small bags. One small bag is then added to each crucible. They keep heating vigorously without pause for one hour and then stop the heat. After it cools off, they take out the iron ingot (egg) from the crucibles. A person said that he was sitting next to a smith who was making swords in the province of Send سند\] Sind\]. He saw that the smith was using narmâhan نرمآهن and putting a very soft, ground mixture, which had a red color on it. Then the smith placed it in the furnace, and took it out and hammered it, and continued this process a couple of times. When asked why he did that he looked contemptuously. When he \[the person sitting next to the smith\] looked closely, he saw that the smith was hammering and mixing dus دوص with narmâhan نرمآهن the same way they made iron ingots (eggs) in Herat.” The metallurgical research into how this steel gets its patterns spans back far, with Michael Faraday (yes, that Faraday) having published a paper on recreating Indian crucible steel (known to him as wootz) in 1819, with subsequent papers in 1820 and 1822. It wasn't until 1837 when Pavel Anasov, a Russian metallurgist and director of the Zlatoust arms factory, that it was successfully recreated in any substantial quantity. Since then, research has been done on modern steels (Sherby and Wadsworth, 1983) and on historical blades, revealing the mechanisms by which the patterns forms (Verhoeven et al, 1998). Anosov was a metallurgist and Colonel of the Russian Army during the occupation on the Emirate of Bukhara in the 1820’s, when he established contact with steelmakers in the region and attempted to recreate the steel in his steelworks in Zlatoust, but after failing asked Captain Massalski (results published 1841) whose regiment was stationed there, to observe the process and undertake further observations. Massalski documented the Bukhara method, noting 3 key metals, cast iron, iron, and silver. Massalski stresses the ratio of one part iron, 3 parts cast iron (N.B: a co-fusion method of making steel with the right amount of carbon) and the crucibles hold around 2.5kg of steel, making up 1/3rd of the potential capacity of the crucible. The metal workers start the fire and the metal begins to melt after some 5 to 6 hours, and makes a bubbling sound. When the bubbling sound ends, this is a sign that the fusion has ended. The workers remove the lid, add 0.013kg to 0.017kg of silver, stir rapidly with an iron rod, cover the charge with charcoal, and cover again with the lid. (N.B: this was a potentially primitive form of "killing" the steel, a process by which reactive elements in the charge react with another reactive metal - silver in this case, aluminium in modern times - and are thus removed from the reaction, resulting in less porosity due to gas production. The other method of degassing historically used was simply holding the ingot at the molten, liquidus temperature for longer). * N.B: Silver is not particularly reactive, so the purpose of silver might not have been killing the steel. The atmosphere and composition of a crucible melt, as well as the 1400-1500c temperature at which silver was added require further investigation to determine the mode of action. it may be that the liquid silver was moving into the grain boundaries of the steel during solidification, displacing phosphorus or sulphur. They return the crucible to the fire and allow it to cool as the charcoal burns out, slowly, over 3 days. After cooling, the ingot is removed and tested by polishing to check for dendrites. The steel then passes to smiths, who “know that from then onwards whether the ingot survives being forged is a matter of luck” This is clear evidence that not only was the crucible steel production process being conducted in Bukhara in 1841, but that the mechanisms of pattern formation were already being formally investigated. And this is by far not the most recent ethnographic account of crucible steel manufacture. In Mawalgaha, Sri Lanka, Ananda Coomaraswamy documented crucible steel production in 1903 - (Coomaraswamy, A. (1908): Medieval Sinhalese Art. Pantheon Books, New York). She found two crucible ingot fragments, crucibles, iron blooms and small iron bars. The two crucible ingot fragments were collected from the Mawalgaha village, where Kiri Ukkuwa demonstrated how to make steel for Coomaraswamy - providing the most recent known eyewitness evidence for crucible steel manufacturing. This form of "Damascus" steel was therefore historically used as early as the 6th century BCE (Park et al 2019) and as late as 1841 when Massalski recorded crucible steel production in Bukhara, leading to the production of Bulat in Zlatoust by Anosov, and 1903 in Sri Lanka (though it was not actively being made en masse, and was only demonstrated using previously abandoned equipment). **In summary: Production between 1903ish, and 1980ish, was virtually halted, thus leading to the myth of it being a "lost art", however as will be shown in this document, the process was well documented and has since been replicated.** The result is that there are now upwards of 150 individuals (at least, that I know of) who can produce crucible steel with an accurate metallurgical composition, which naturally form patterns in the steel due to carbide segregation. It is structurally, functionally and visually identical to historical crucible steel - and can only be differentiated by analysing the amount of radionuclides in the steel, as all historical steel is low background steel, and modern recreations are typically not.

[@IPostSwords]

**Etymological information on "Damascus" steel:** Utsa / Wootz (Indian - and mistranslated Indian), Pulad (Persian), Fuladh (Arabic), Bulat (Russian), Polat (Turkish) and Bintie (Chinese) are all names for ultra-high carbon crucible steel typified by carbide segregation, which can be otherwise referred to as "crucible damascus steel". The modern term “wootz” first appears around 1794 in writings by Sir Joseph Banks, who mistranslated Sanskrit for “utsa” as “wootz” (Dube, 20 14). In the regions where crucible steel was made, and where it was forged into blades, it was not called "damascus". This name is primarily a medieval name, and primarily used in Europe. The origin of the name "Damascus" steel is contentious - The Islamic writers al-Kindi (full name Abu Ya'qub ibn Ishaq al-Kindi) (circa 800 AD - 873 AD) and al-Beruni (full name Abu al-Rayhan Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Biruni) (circa 973 AD - 1048 AD) were both scholars who wrote about swords and steel made for swords, based on their surface appearance, geographical location of production or forging, or the name of the smith. There are three potential sources for the term "Damascus" in the context of steel. The word "Damas" stems from the root word for "water" ("ma") or "broiling" in Arabic (Sachse, 1994, 13) and Damascus blades are often described as exhibiting a water-pattern on their surface, and are referred to as "watered steel" not only in English but in other languages. The second theory is geographical, as Al-Kindi called swords produced and forged in Damascus as Damascene (al-Hassan, 1978, 35) but it's worth noting that crucibl steel blades were made in many nations, and crucible steel is not known to have ever been produced in the city of Damascus. Al Kindi also describes crucible steel production using the typical term Pulad, distinct from these damascene swords, indicating that the two types are separate. It is also worth noting that Al-Kindi did not describe these swords as having pattern forming steel. Third, Beiruni mentions a sword-smith called Damasqui who made swords of crucible steel (Said, 1989, 219-220). In a similar fashion, Al-Kindi mentions swords called “Zaydiya which were forged by a man called Zayd, and hence they were attributed to his name". We therefore have a precedent for naming swords based on their makers, which may explain how "Damascus" came about. It is my opinion that the "watered" hypothesis is most likely for the origin, though the popularisation of the term may have indeed occurred due to western travellers who purchased the swords in damascus, and described them thusly, as it was a massive center for trade.

[@IPostSwords]

**How Crucible steel gets its pattern:** Crucible steel, as the name implies, is made in a crucible process, and requires completely liquefication of the crucible charge. Most surviving "recipes" for crucible steel call for either a combination of bloomery iron, and cast iron, or the use of bloomery iron and organic carbon sources (like plant leaves) - but crucible steel recipes included other elements, like organic material - rice husks, leaves, bark - as well as shells, glass, and even silver. The trace impurities in the iron used, and in these additives, are key to the patterns they show after forging. In order to form patterns, carbide forming alloying elements like vanadium, tungsten or manganese are necessary in small amounts, with vanadium being the most common historical alloying element. These carbide formers cause the segregation of hard cementite carbides, which form the "white streaks" in crucible steel. The segregation of CFEs into interdendritic reasons is due to the differences in solidification temperature between high CFE and low CFE steel, with low CFE steel solidifying at a higher temperature than high CFE steel. This causes the low CFE steel to solidify first when the ingot is slowly cooled, and it does so by branching out into dendrities of relatively pure iron, while the impurities such as phosphorus, CFEs and sulfur get pushed into the regions between these branches. During the forging of the crucible steel "puck", these carbide formers are pushed into parallel, layered sheets in the microstructure of the steel (Verhoeven et al, 1998). Because vanadium and other CFEs do not readily dissolve at forging temperatures and do not rapidly migrate at forging temperatures, these sheets of carbide formers form distinct bands in the steel. As the steel is thermally cycled, carbides aggregate onto the CFEs via ostwald ripening, and form spheroids of cementite. The interdendritic regions without CFEs form as pearlite, a soft two-phase mixture of carbides, or sorbite, and imperfect form of pearlite. This is diagnostic of historical crucible steel (Verhoeven et al 2018, Feuerbach 2002, Feuerbach 2006). It is worth noting that vanadium is not the only effective carbide former found in historical crucible steel blades, and other carbide formers like manganese are seen in historical examples - or even chromium as seen in Chahak, Iran (Alipour et al 2021). Additionally, the other microalloying elements in the steel can effect the contrast and spacing of the pattern, with phosporus notably increasing the contrast of the pattern after etching (Khorasani and Hynninen, 2013) **Historical perspectives on Crucible Damascus Steel quality:** Regarding the historical reputation of historical crucible steel swords: they were always very expensive, very desirable, and very well thought of - HOWEVER - there are accounts from the 14th century of cold-short blades (high in phosphorus) which claims that crucible steel swords are prone to breakage in cold weather. The exact quote is by Alī ibn ʻAbd al-Raḥmān Ibn Hudhayl, translated: >"the Hindy sabre often breaks when the weather is cold and shows itself better when the weather is warm” Despite this, they were very valued. Mohammad ibn Abi al-Barakāt Jŏhari Nezāmi in 1196 CE states a good shamshir blade of crucible steel was valued at 100 golden Dinar (Khorasani et al, 2013). Al-Idrisi (Full name Abu Abd Allah Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn Abd Allah ibn Idris al-Idrisi - circa 1100CE - 1166CE) claimed that "*nothing could surpass*" the edge of a crucible steel sword. Bertrandon de la Brocquiere, a Frenchman, wrote about his travels to the Middle East in 1432CE-1433CE. He wrote: >"Damascus blades are the handsomest and best of all Syria... I have nowhere seen swords cut so excellently. They are made at Damascus, and in the adjoining country." Note: This is potentially the source of the (incorrect but often repeated) claim that crucible steel swords were made in Damascus. In the early 1600's, Polish king Zygmunt III Waza ordered a Armenian merchant (Sefer Muratowicz) to purchase a number of watered steel blades from Isfahan, Persia due to their value and reputation (Muratovich et al, 1777). On this same journey, the merchant purchased carpets embroidered with the royal coat of arms, which still survive today. Regardless of the reputation crucible steel enjoyed in its' day, the reality is that it was by nature very clean, with minimal slag - which made it less likely to break due to inclusions - and there is a lot of variation in the metallurgical composition of this steel. Some have higher carbon, or more phosphorus, and the quality varied. Heat treatment also widely varied. Compared to bloomery steel which was folded and consolidated, it's more uniform and much lower in slag - the term for non-metallic inclusions. The same is true of refined blast furnace steel, which also requires forge consolidation after finishing the finery process. Crucible steel can be more brittle, depending on the heat treatment, phosphorus, and sulfur contents, or it can be much more flexible. It depends on the exact sword being analysed, as crucible steel was produced for around 2 millennia and in many places. For example, some accounts of crucible steel swords being able to be bent 90 degrees exist, however these can easily be countered with extant examples that take a set no matter the degree of bending. **Production methods:** Here are 4 different processes, which were recorded from at early as Al Kindi, to as late as 1841CE with Massalski - from the Deccani process used in Hyderabad, to the south Indian process, and the Isfahan process, and the Bukhara process. There are more processes out there, I just haven't gotten around to writing them out. **Bukhara:** >3 parts clean iron, 1 part cast iron. Place in a crucible that is five times as tall as it the base is wide, with a mouth three times the size of the base. The weight of iron should be 2-2.5kg. > >Using a charcoal melting furnace with air venting holes, heat until melted (6 hours) or until a bubbling sound can be heard from the crucible. once bubbling stops, remove the lid of the crucible and add 0.013-0.017 grams of silver to the crucible and stir with a metal rod. reseal the crucible, seal all holes in the furnace, and allow to cool over 3 days. > >Remove the puck from the crucible, and polish one corner of it to check if the watered pattern is good. If the pattern is poor, reheat to a red heat and hold for seven minutes before allowing to cool in air. > >Forge into a bar using the top of the button to form the spine of the blade, and never heating above red. **South Indian:** >In a clay crucible of conical form (200mm height x 50mm diameter) add 250-500 grams of bloomery iron, as well as wood chips, rice husks, vines or leaves. Seal the crucible with a clay lid, leaving a vent hole. Allow to fully dry > >Using a bellow-fed charcoal forge, heat for 6 hours or until molten. allow the crucible to cool in the forge (some sources say to quench it in water). > >The button will have a striated appearance if everything was done correctly. **Deccani (Hyderabad) Process:** >Using a mixture of iron sand derived iron ore, and iron clay derived iron (mirtpalli and kondapur iron), place in a crucible with glass, sealed with clay with a vent hole. Place in a bellow powered charcoal furnace for 24 hours. The steel will melt within the first 3. After 24 hours, remove crucible and allow to cool in the air. > >Once cool, remove the buttons and cover each in clay, and anneal in a conventional forge for 12-16 hours. repeat this annealing process until the button is no longer brittle. **Isfahan Process:** >To a crucible, add 10% casi auriculata wood, and asclepias gigantean leaves with two parts pure iron, one part cast iron, and three parts silicate-rich iron ore up to a total weight of 200 grams. > >10-1200 of these small crucibles are heated at a time in a kiln operated with charcoal and bellows for 6 days, before the crucibles are broken open, and the buttons removed. > >The buttons are then transferred into a "hot room" to anneal and temper for 2 days so they do not shatter from cooling too quickly. Authors note: I suspect that if this room is a furnace-heated compartment, and is hot enough, they also experience some level of rim decarburisation, as well as converting the microstructure of the puck to a more forgeable state compared to steel which has not been roasted.

[@IPostSwords]

**\*\*References\*\*** Alipour, R., Rehren, T., Martinón-Torres, M. "Chromium crucible steel was first made in Persia", Journal of Archaeological Science, Vol. 127, 2021, Al-Hassan, A.Y., 1978, Iron and Steel Technology in Medieval Arabic Sources, Journal for the History of Arabic Science 2: 1,31-43 Anosov, P.P. (1841) On the Bulats (Damascus Steels). Mining Journal, 2, 157-317. Dube, R.K. (2014) Wootz: Erroneous Transliteration of Sanskrit “Utsa” used for Indian Crucible Steel. JOM 66, 2390-2396 Feuerbach, A. M. 2002. Crucible steel in Central Asia: production, use and origins. Feuerbach, A. M. 2006. Crucible damascus steel: A fascination for almost 2,000 years. JOM, 58, 48-50. Khorasani, Manouchehr & Hynninen, Niko. (2013). Reproducing crucible steel: A practical guide and a comparative analysis to persian manuscripts. Gladius. 33. 157-192. 10.3989/gladius.2013.0007. Sasisekaran, B. & B. Raghunatha Rao, (1999) Technology of Iron and Steel in Kodumanal: An Ancient Industrial Centre in Tamilnadu, IJHS 34.4 (1999) 263-72. Sasisekaran, B. (2002) Metallurgy and Metal Industry in Ancient Tamilnadu -an Archaeological study, IJHS 37.1 17-30. Muratowicz, S., Minasowicz, J.E., Mitzler de Kolof, M. (1777) Relacya Sefera Muratowicza Obywatela Warszawskiego Od Zygmunta III Krola Polskiego Dla Sprawowania Rzeczy Wysłanego do Persyi w Roku 1602. Warsaw, published by J. K. Mci y Rzpltey Mitzlerowskiey, . Park, J.‐S., Rajan, K., and Ramesh, R. (2020) High‐carbon steel and ancient sword‐making as observed in a double‐edged sword from an Iron Age megalithic burial in Tamil Nadu, India. Archaeometry, 62: 68- 80. Sachse, Damascus Steel: Myth, History, Technology, Applications (Wirtschaftseverk: N.W. Verl. Fur Neue Wiss, 1994). Said, Al-Beruni's Book on Mineralogy: The Book Most Comprehensive in Knowledge on Precious Stones (Islamabad: Pakistan Hijra Council, 1989), pp. 219-220. T., F. Metallurgical Researches of Michael Faraday. Nature 129, 45-47 (1932). Verhoeven, J., A.H. Pendray, WE. Dauksch, 1998, The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades, JOM 50:9, 58-64 J.D Verhoeven, A.H Pendray, W.E. Dauksch, 2018, Damascus steel revisited, JOM vol 70, pp 1331-1336 Oleg D. Sherby: "Damascus Steel Rediscovered?" 1979, Trans. ISIJ, 19(7) p. 381--390. J. Wadsworth and OD. Sherby, 1980 “On the Bulat - Damascus Steels Revisited”, Progress in Materials Science. 25 p. 35 - 68 Sherby , O.D. and Wadsworth, J., 1983-84 "Damascus Steels --- Myths, Magic and Metallurgy", The Stanford Engineer, p. 27 - 37. J. Wadsworth and O.D. Sherby, "Damascus Steel Making", 1983, Science , 216, p. 328-330. 1985 Oleg D. Sherby, T. Oyama, Kum D. M., B. Walser, and J. Wadsworth, 1985, "Ultrahigh Carbon Steels". J. Metals, 37(6) p. 50 - 56. Oleg D. Sherby and Jeffrey Wadsworth, 1985, "Damascus Steel", Scientific American, 252(2) p. 112 -120 **N.B:** A brief note on the claim **carbon nanotubes** exist in crucible steel: The only articles that "found" carbon nanotubes was published as a brief communication to Nature, i.e not a peer reviewed article, not a full article. This was in 2006, and was only a few pages in length. It later found its away into a conference paper by the same authors, still not a peer reviewed article. This was 2 pages in length. These findings should be considered preliminary. The method used (dissolving crucible steel in acid and seeing what remains) revealed stands of carbon, but carbon dissolves VERY readily into steel. Crucible steel is typified by cementite spheroids, which often stretch into rods during forging as they are deformed. If you dissolve cementite in acid, removing the iron component, you are left with carbon. This does not mean there was an intact carbon nanotube in the core of the cementite rod - and even if it DID mean that, it would have negligible impact on performance because it is \*encased\* in cementite, which itself is in a soft matrix of pearlite or sorbite. But don't take my word for it. Other academics, including those who have been instrumental in understanding crucible steel (namely John Verhoeven) doubt the findings. " John Verhoeven, of Iowa State University in Ames, suggests Paufler is seeing something else. Cementite can itself exist as rods, he notes, so there might not be any carbon nanotubes in the rod-like structure." "Another potential problem is that TEM equipment sometimes contains nanotubes, says physicist Alex Zettl of the University of California" [www.nature.com/news/2006/061113/full/news061113-11.html](www.nature.com/news/2006/061113/full/news061113-11.html)

[@sekaramochi]

Holy shite the five bolt cross bow. Robin hood men in tights

[@Buddha_the_Pug]

The panjagan was invented by the ancestor of Joerg Sprave lol

[@johnthomas7517]

An instant legolas, let me show you it's features!!!!!

[@wainie1333]

But can you show me its features?

[@mattiemathis9549]

Simon- I love all your channels! I admit I occasionally get caught up in the presentation of brain blaze, but I am really loving the content on side projects. I don’t know if you care to pay someone to research it, but I was a channel on tv 10+ years ago. The presenter said that Egyptians had a way to temper copper/bronze (sorry don’t remember) to make it hard enough to cut the granite stone, and that method was lost to history. Actually, from the responses in the comments, if this is monetized and ad sponsored, I see a sequel in the future. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@andiward7068]

Highly recommend Casual Criminalist, Decoding the Unknown and Into the Shadows for well researched, well written and presented Whistler channels. His older shows like TopTenz and TIFO have incorrect info more often than I'm comfortable with from fact providing channels. The channels are good, I'm just not a fan of some.

[@mattiemathis9549]

@@andiward7068 I also like geographically and biographics

[@davidtatro7457]

That flexible glass sounds an awful lot like transparent aluminum, which means that Mr. Scott had some time travels which we don't know about.

[@samsungnvA51]

Damascus steel came from South India (as you said Wootz steel, a possible corruption of a Tamil word for alloy) around 2,300 years ago. The method of melting the steel at higher temperature using coal and dried sea weed probably came from Sri Lanka. Also, the metalsmiths used seasonal monsoon winds by placing the kilns at beaches facing the ocean before the inventions of leather bellows. This is how it was produced - melting at higher temperature, maybe some other metals even they did not know about, (sort of accidental discovery) and repeated annealing. It can be produced today by following these steps pretty closely. It was essentially a metallurgical discovery by ancient scientists from South India and Sri Lanka.

[@paulherman5822]

There's several videos out there that debunk "Damascus steel can't be replicated today." Yet this myth persists.

[@donaldliverance2597]

It's has been recreated the ulfberth is a cool blade as well and honestly harder to create

[@yeetghostrat]

Damascus steel is impossible to replicate because the cache (don't know the technical term) that the steel was taken from is depleted. You can make something with the same techniques, but you can't replicate the exact recipe.

[@maikelfeskens9322]

@@yeetghostrat Iron is iron. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Chemical composition is still the same when mixed with carbon to make steel. So yes, it can be replicated

[@yeetghostrat]

​​​​@@maikelfeskens9322 you are so wrong. but i don't have the energy to go into my knife nerd rant about the unique properties of damascus steel, and how all sources of metal are unique. iron is not just iron, especially iron from before purification methods were as evolved as today.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

The blade that Beowulf used to kill Grendel's mother in the story Beowulf was described in some Modern English translations as "damacened".

[@NikoMoraKamu]

dasmascening is a different thing , its enlaying gold of diferent metals to the surface of steel

[@rrrosecarbinela]

Simon, I dare you to challenge Joerg Sprave of the Slingshot Channel to create a Panjagan! Some of his weapons are absolutely astounding.

[@nomoregoodnamesleft2]

These videos get me through the work day and make me smarter. Love this stuff.

[@juliehovar5488]

Simon, please thanks to All Your Staff. Very well presented.. you know......

[@bobthecomputerguy]

Those modern knives imitating Damascus steel are probably superior than actual Damascus steel. While we don't know the exact recipe for the steel, which was a great for its time, we have surpassed it with our own modern processes.

[@diogeneslantern18]

Indeed. By far. We have some wonder steels and alloys now that the ancients would look at as literal alien technology.

[@phillip6083]

True damascus steel was said to have a state during forging known as a "plastic" state.wherein the heated metal need not be hammered but could be pulled and stretched and pressed like very hard putty. This method of production would also improve the blade quality but orienting the crystalline structure axially.

[@bryanmccarthy6493]

No Damascus blade would be able to surpass say a D2 tool steel knife.

[@gomahklawm4446]

@phiip No.....metallurgical analysis under microscopes can see the old blades were folded again and again. Just like how it is made today. Just another myth....

[@robertsears8323]

Damascus steel is made to this day. Just watch Forged in Fire they make them all the time.

[@CyScorpion]

Thanks for updating my intelligence in this field, I have always wanted something made of Damascus but it seems I would have likely be conned before I saw this video. As for the Glass, I can only hope someone or several someones are working on this, because flexible Glass is a Must Have Technology today.

[@LiminalMan777]

Another of Simon and Friends channel to binge

[@BjornicusMinimus]

Naphtha isn't crude oil. It's a light distillate produced from crude oil in the petroleum refining process. With an octane rating of around 66 (depending on who you ask), naphtha is closer to gasoline than petroleum oil in terms of physical properties.

[@alphadawg81]

I think the part about Damascus steel was quite misleading. There are many blade steels on the market that outperform Damascus/Wootz in toughness, edge retention, and of course corrosion resistance.

[@hlrose71]

I love your videos, they're entertaining and informative, I just wish the producers would cut back on the theatrical music and noises. They're incredibly distracting and do nothing to improve the videos.

[@No-sv6mu]

Is Greek fire like Greek lightning? Aka purposely lighting your restaurant on fire so the insurance had to pay for the new renovations wanted.

[@LordSlag]

It has been discovered that Damascus Steel was just the result of a bit of Vanadium in their iron ore. They didn't possess lost techniques...they possessed lost LUCK.

[@IPostSwords]

Vanadium is not the only historical carbide forming elements in crucible steels that can lead to a pattern. some historical swords made of pattern forming crucible steels lack any detectable levels of it - see the Voigt blade, in the Pendray/Verhoeven paper. Crucible steel was made in many places, with many compositions. Not just Indian, or just Syria. It spanned from turkmenistan to iran to india to sri lanka and more.

[@LordSlag]

@@IPostSwords Just shows my concept is correct.

[@Icanbacktrailers]

Just like Roman concrete. It was luck

[@LordSlag]

@@Icanbacktrailers Precisely.

[@mechanomics2649]

@@Icanbacktrailers Not really. Luck has nothing to do with anything.

[@DrewishAF]

10:25 I'm going to disagree with the assertion that our modern "damascus" is inferior to the original. We can't specifically replicate the exact processes used in those times, but our steel and material sciences are FAR superior in every way. Our modern steel alloys are stronger, tougher, more flexible, and more durable than those ancient blades. They aren't magical or anything, we just remain curious about how they figured out the process so many centuries ago. Our modern alloys are absolutely, undeniably superior to traditional Damascus.

[@brandonwallace1551]

Yes true Damascus was ahead of it’s time but compared to many of of the steels we use today it is far inferior

[@Fly2kill1]

Right. Unless it’s from Damasteel which that is mid level. CPM-154 level.

[@gaberielpendragon]

Damascus is also massively over-hyper and all modern steel is better. The stuff most people claim is Damascus is just pattern welded steel. It looks similar to Damascus, but the patterning is quite different. The knock offs are actually better than the originals, who were only better than what was around at the time. If we did replicate it, we could refine it with modern technology to make it on par with modern steels, but it might well just be that our steel is better and it's not worth bothering.

[@IPostSwords]

There are people making proper crucible "damascus" today. Not just pattern welded. See Niko Hynninen, Peter Burt or Daniel Cauble

[@gaberielpendragon]

​@@IPostSwords Perhaps as a vast minority.

[@SPHYNX99752]

Your intelligence is over-hyped.

[@RandallWeeks]

I was going to say the knife in the photo isn't even Damascus. It's pattern weld with an acid wash. Real Damascus looks like boiling water.

[@IPostSwords]

@@RandallWeeks real crucible steel is still acid etched to show the pattern though. But yes, the thumbnail is pattern welded

[@pirobot668beta]

1973, Scientific American magazine. Group of metallurgists duplicated Wootz in every aspect. The only down-side is that Wootz doesn't weld, cast or recycle very well. The Wootz-cake has a micro-structure that accounts for its desirable properties: melting it down or welding ruins the internal structure. Once melted, it becomes very expensive carbon steel. Oh, yeah, the process uses diffusion welding, which means high temperatures for extended periods of time. Too expensive to mass produce, can't recycle it without ruining the metal.

[@kweeks10045]

Damacus steel, Roman concrete, Greek Fire, and most intriguingly, the loss of the art of stone construction whereby there are no gaps between stones such as those in ancient Inca and China ancient structures.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

The Egyptian pyramids too. Add the statues on Easter Island.

[@danf7411]

Polygonal masonry is far more interesting and much older than those Easter island heads even if they are cool.

[@supersaiyan460]

Indian woozsteel And indian iron pillar Stone structure from india Go and see kailasha temple And ankor wat made by Indian king in combodia

[@beinquisitive]

The beard is definitely getting there

[@alexeecs]

You are completely wrong about Damascus steel. Shadiversity made a great video on it. Let's just say carbon nanotubes in medieval steel is as ludicrous as it sounds

[@trailblazer632]

I mean for places that dont allow guns a 5in one crossbow would be handy

[@lauratukey3584]

A fun informative video keep up the good work I think this one is one of my favorites

[@AdamHowellProvo]

Just to be clear, we have metals that are VASTLY superior to Damascus steel. Our metals are also magnitudes better than anything ancient Japanese swordsmiths could ever dream of.

[@mechanomics2649]

What do Japanese swordsmiths have to do with Damascus steel? Also, different grades of damascus steel exist now.

[@AdamHowellProvo]

@@mechanomics2649 Some of the people who romanticize Damascus steel also romanticize ancient Japanese swordcrafting. So I thought I would tackle two dumb things at once. And modern "Damascus steel" is now properly called "pattern welded steel", to differentiate between the modern and ancient techniques.

[@montecorbit8280]

Black Bronze.... We still don't know how to make it!!

[@harley6314]

You might think the wheel is a pretty easy and straightforward invention. But we sure made a lot of stuff before we came up with it. A lot of stuff

[@SupremeInvigilator]

Fascinating as always, factboy.

[@brianmoore1164]

The Damascus steel research is fascinating, and multiple scholars have come to varied conclusions. The one thing most frequently left out of all of these is that it is in no way better than modern steels. It is incredibly high quality for its time. It is not better than the best of modern steels.

[@garethbaus5471]

It isn't necessarily even better than obsolete alloys like 1095 for its intended purpose.

[@paulsansonetti7410]

I thought Tiberius actually killed the guy for creating aluminum ? Im pretty sure thats what pliny the elder described

[@mjouwbuis]

so, as light as glass, but not as transparent as glass? I guess that would depend on the exact words used to describe it.

[@slidey1788]

Transparent aluminum?

[@paulsansonetti7410]

@@slidey1788 Generally I'd agree with Ernest W. Adams, that this is just a "Good Story(tm)". Let's examine what is known about it: It's first mentioned in the Satyricon, a work of Fiction That work was written around the time of Nero, and references the emperor Tiberius. Tiberius has charged Nero's father with treason and was about to execute him, but died before that was carried out. There is no other historical technology that came close to it, contemporaries disbelieved it could be possible, and there is no archaeological evidence for anything similar for centuries.

[@paulsansonetti7410]

@@slidey1788 Moonman has an interesting idea here. ‘In Corliss’ Archaeological Anomalies: Small Artifacts: Bone, Stone, Metal Artifacts, Footprints, High Technology, p. 248, there are two references to the possible production of aluminum in the past. One is the Tiberius story. Glass would not dent, but aluminum would. The other story is about a tomb from the Jin Dynasty which had a belt with four pieces of pure aluminum. Called the Nanjing belt. Other ‘lost’ methods that are claimed (in the Corliss book) include stone softening in the New World to construct buildings and their parts. Also, the concrete/mortar used in ancient times seemed to last longer than current products (9000 years for Jericho lime mortar, 4500 years for Great Pyramid cement vs. 50 years for modern cement).

[@emptycradle1304]

I remember reading somewhere that Greek Fire was petroleum collected from a tar pit, something like that been a while.

[@gititgiitit5450]

I just tried to leave a comment about how ships back then could have been coated in a petroleum product that when set on fire would be near impossible to put out. Essentially becoming a grease fire on water. YT deletedit.

[@ayush.pandey.2007]

Everyone please note syrians buyed the original steel from India then they fordge that , they didn't knew how to build that steel . Just like arabic numbers and decimal system which westerners confused to be came from arab but was from India .

[@mrbushi1062]

I just love how stainless steel came from research in Damascus steel

[@martonlerant5672]

Regarding damascus steel... ...its strong, but not THAT strong. Which is a huge part of the reason why its mostly ignored as a research subject in engineering. It was extremely ahead of its time, but sadly science marched on, and advanced past it a long time ago. However we do have modern equivalents to it (in terms of difficultynof manufacture, and exceptional properties), the so called high entropy alloys.

[@Fly2kill1]

Damascus can be anything that’s pattern welded together. There is a company in Denmark called Damasteel. They make good stuff. Not super steel level but good and can be etched and polished to be gorgeous.

[@bioLarzen]

It's kind of hard to imagine a fire fuel that water won't extinguish but urine will. After all, about 90-95% of urine is water, and I can't think of any other component of normal urine that could make such a difference... (and the same applies to vinegar, although the water content there may go "down" to 70-85% or even lower - but still, the predominant component will still be water)

[@studioyokai]

The only think I can think that they have in common, is that they're both much more acidic than water - and they both have things in their composition that make them kinda volatile and highly reactive? Urea contains ammonia, which is a useful cleaning and sterilizing agent partly BECAUSE it's so reactive. Vinegar contains acetic acid, which similarly is VERY reactive (in fact, they're both examples of substances commonly used for cleaning that should NEVER be mixed willy nilly including with each other; other examples of highly reactive chemicals that should NEVER be mixed with either ammonia, vinegar, or each other, include hydrogen peroxide and chlorine bleach) I notice they said "old" urine was one of the methods, not fresh - this would presumably have become more concentrated, as the water evaporated from it. I'm not a chemist myself but I am still aware that oils tend to be "clingy" too, and that they won't mix with water without intervention. I ALSO know that a "grease fire" should NEVER be put out with water because that often makes it worse (apparently this is because the oil has a higher boiling point than water by far - so the liquid water pretty much immediately turns to steam, and instead of smothering it you often get a big WOOSH increased flame size instead) The trick to putting out a grease fire? Smother it... and sand, being made of non-reactive tiny particles of glass with a VERY high melting point, is a preferred way to extinguish it where possible. So if these reports were remotely close to accurate, I would wager the following: 1.) Since it was "liquid", it clung to things, floated on water, and wasn't extinguished by water but COULD be extinguished by sand tossed oj it, it clearly had SOME sort of grease or oil as a major component, if only as the carrier agent... my first thought being olive oil, maybe (Olive oil is certainly capable of catching fire on its own, they used to use it in oil lamps even, so it could have made for a plausible ingredient). But the aforementioned "naptha" (petroleum) is for sure an excellent basis for a flammable chemical weapon with those kinds of properties. It's also NASTY all on its own - flammable, slimy, releases toxic fumes etc - and oil or gasoline fires are infamously nasty and a bit tricky to put out. 2.) Whatever it was, it's own oxidation reaction was, again if stories are true, disrupted if you introduced a very concentrated, quite acidic, liquid to it. Honestly I've always just assumed it was a crude, early form of napalm, but it's of course impossible to know with no recorded recipes.

[@bioLarzen]

@@studioyokai Yeah, the ammonia content of urine might come in play here - but the fact that there is so little of it in urine just bothers me... could such a small amount make all the difference?

[@KuK137]

@@bioLarzen He specifically said old urine. Maybe they meant one that lost most water and was mostly ammonia? Just a suggestion, no idea if it is possible...

[@bioLarzen]

@@KuK137 Yeah, that makes perfect sense. To be honest, I thought he said "good old urine" - but he definitely says "old urine".

[@desperadox7565]

Just because we sometimes don't know exactly what they used in ancient times, doesn't mean we can't do it much better now.

[@kieranklein2527]

Gas station knife in the thumbnail just tops it off.

[@ravencanis8998]

2:24 a sudden realisation about the phrase “wouldn’t piss on someone if they were on fire”

[@barrydysert2974]

Loved this one Kevin !:-)

[@dublkrossr2059]

The history of the wheel intro gave me a cartoon flashback to BC lol That was a cool cartoon when information was printed

[@dallebull]

What about Fogbank? That was created, lost and recrated in living memory. 😅

[@JohnnyAFG81]

Lost in a secret bunker never too see the eyes of a layman.

[@ElicBehexan]

That was funny... you announced what the topic was and I said: "Greek Fire." And then you said "Greek Fire." I had to laugh.

[@jamesspry3294]

Al Pendray spent a few decades figuring out how Damascus steel was made. He worked out how to make it with modern materials. It's not exactly the same, but it's as close as you can get. He also figured out what to change in order to get different properties. Unfortunately he died not long ago, but he did pass on his knowledge, so it would've be lost. It's worth watching a few videos about it. It's quite different to modern layered Damascus...

[@erroneous6947]

Technically it’s called wootz steel. Not Damascus. But you do you mr KZbin “expert”.

[@Nokman013]

"Lots of guns" So much of a missed opportunity there...

[@JackDecker63]

"Because, you know, we have GUNS." LOL!

[@Raazaaaaa]

If flexible glass did happen, we may find that glass one day as it wouldn’t have shattered yet

[@twentypdrparrott694]

There is a video of Belgian blacksmiths making Damascus shotgun barrels. They were so good at it that they could put the buyer's name in the metal while forging the barrel.

[@peartree460]

No examples of unbreakable glass survive to this day...🤭🤭🤭

[@ro4eva]

Fascinating historical mysteries.

[@zeideerskine3462]

Thomas Herschel in Cells Germany recreates Damascus steel with the nanotubes regularly as he is a master blacksmith. However, the process does not lend itself to mass production.

[@dave_h_8742]

Similar process, different country different problems to overcome outcome - Katana.

[@MichaelLesterClockwork]

Imagine the nightmare for future archaeologists separating modern myth from fact.

[@DecanFrost]

love the humor you always add

[@insanemakaioshin]

1. Greek 2. Rome 3. Syria & India 4. Persian/Syria

[@muttonvindaloobeast8160]

Ironically, borosilicate glass could have prevented rome's fall into debt and eventual downfall

[@Skyte100]

I remember a thing that said greek fire was lost when they lost access to the regions that held the materials. Wouldnt be stretch of the imagination that the decision to destroy any copies of the formula once it was clear they weren't getting that place back.

[@einbahnstrasse1999]

correction: Sumerians didn't invent the wheel; they invented the axle. The wheel has always existed and didn't need invention.

[@joshuabruner9676]

In Sanskrit Pancha पञ्च is five and bān बाण is arrow. It seems to me more than mere coincidental that panchabān would literally mean the same thing as panjagān. Perhaps clues may be turned up in South Asian archeological digs. Linguists have the possibility of finding evidence of the word roots and development, but that's my guess.

[@yourguard4]

Imagine, you burn yourself with greek fire and you call it "friendly fire".

[@rev.jonathanwint6038]

The flexible glass was probably a resin plastic

[@ignitionfrn2223]

1:05 - Chapter 1 - Greek Fire 3:50 - Chapter 2 - Flexible glass 6:30 - Chapter 3 - Damascus steel 10:30 - Chapter 4 - Panjagan

[@joshjacob1530]

actually everyone in the comments has it wrong, the wootz was the key component however it was not the perfected legendary metal/sword that would be damascus steel, the mettalurgists took the wootz steel then added the last and final element to the already created wootz steel which hardened the metal and perfected the final process.

[@joshjacob1530]

wootz/indian steel was known and reported by greek historians however it was not weak and not hardened properly until the metalurigsts figured out the process.

[@spinxtercell]

I was looking for one of these knives just yesterday

[@15Bravo]

"Damascus" steel is just pattern welded steel. It wasnt anything special given you just throw all your trash metal bits in a crucible and heat it and hammer it till all the random bits welded together. Damascus steel isnt anything special at all.

[@Gertyutz]

The method of building the Egyptian pyramids was only discovered about 15 years ago by a scientific team.

[@PelenTan]

"No need for a panjagan because we have guns." - the man who can't buy a gun.