The mysterious identification tag of soldier Florindo Pintuccio - An ID tag that defies its purpose

[@mlteyt]

I might have a lead for you. It could be a Sardinian name, actually Pinducciu rather than Pinduccio. There was an Antonio Pinducciu (1872-1966) who married Vittoria Pittoru (1882-1972). They had a daughter, Angelina (1909-1927) and all three are buried in Olbia. They would be the right age to have had a son in 1913. As you mention, the guy was probably illiterate and the military officer perhaps unfamiliar with Sardinian names. Could the place of birth be Calagianus? L and R are commonly interchangeable in pronunciation, as a C and G in some tongues. There's a record of a Nicola Pinducciu being born in Calagianus in 1844 and the surname is linked to that town.

[@mlteyt]

Update: Some sources point to Antonio Pinducciu's first name really being Bernardino.

[@CrocodileTear]

Thanks a lot for this information, I will be sending out the letters to verify this possibility in the next days. Three different people told me to try Calagianus, so this seems like a solid lead to follow. I will also try Olbia. It still doesnt explain why the serial number or name dont correspond to anything in the archives, but we will take it one step at a time ;) Edit, I guess both the serial number and name must have a typo, which is why both lead to nothing at the Agrigento archive.

[@reubensandwich9249]

The language variations of Italy makes something like that even more difficult.

[@PietroCrovetto]

Good catch! The mother’s surname Piturru sounds definitely from Sardinia, even if it’s quite unusual.

[@pg123ab]

It makes sense. Not too many people could read and write back then. I could totally see the guy making the dog tag just putting down whatever he understood from the soldier dialect.

[@Frank_Nemo]

One thing is certain, this is more than a deliberate deception by the individual soldier. For example, if the guy had supplied false details, including the date of birth, then the Italian military would have given him a serial number that matched that DOB. But they didn't. At a wild guess, this is someone who didn't want someone coming up to them and saying, 'Hey, I know people from your home town' or 'You have the same last name as me!' This sort of reminds me of some of the imaginative thinking of some of the small splinter groups of British spooks in WWII. Then again, it could just have been some Italian house breaker who bribed the dog tag guy to give him a break.

[@obsidianjane4413]

@11:50 Some people enlisted, or conscripted, did not want their identities known for many reasons. Criminal record, evading that or debts, or taxes, making a "fresh start", etc. So they would make up an identity. Used to be very easy to do before there were consolidated record keeping and electronics. In that case it will be pretty much impossible to ever find their true identity. Just as they wanted. Just not in the circumstances they probably intended. Best of luck though.

[@CrocodileTear]

I certainly didn't think of that. Dictatorships are usually careful with people's identities, so I dont know how likely this scenario is with Fascist Italy. I saw soldier's files where the town hall had to confirm the soldier had no mental illness, communist tendencies, etc. This is an idea to be explored. Edit 24 hours later: even a person who enlists with a false identity, should have his false identity registered under his serial number in the archives.

[@Gabikah233]

Or the guy made that dogtag can also not read just like the soldiers... or he was somebody from Secret Service. In Hungary was a normal thing under the Soldiers some spys to lock for moral and everything.

[@CrocodileTear]

Regardless, his serial number should match the file of the false ID he would have enlisted with.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@Gabikah233 I would hope that the Italian army knew enough to assign the ID tag engraving work to somebody who knew how to read and write as 80% of the soldiers knew to do.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@petert2481 A soldier enlisting with a false identity should have a corresponding file with the false ID in the archives under his serial number. His false name should also be listed in the archives.

[@dtaylor10chuckufarle]

"Once Is Happenstance. Twice Is Coincidence. Three Times Is Enemy Action" - Ian Fleming

[@Zirler]

Hello Jean-Loup Your tenacity is admirable 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Thank you and all the best Christoph

[@lucaloddo825]

Caranciaros is definitely a misspelling of Calangianus (SS), a small town in north-east Sardinia. The town is also locally spelled as Caragnàni and Calanzanos. Pitturru and Pinducciu are both sardinians surnames attested in the area

[@Lawnmower737]

Judging by your profile picture and what you said, I’m presuming you hail from Sardinia. If so, perhaps you could do some digging and look in the archives of the town where this unknown man comes from.

[@stephenyoud6125]

The work you do is amazing. Good luck with this Italian one. Looking forward to the solution video.

[@viandengalacticspaceyards5135]

You probably know this, but around 1900 much spelling was purely phonetic. I found 3 brothers of my family in the official birth registry, with the same family name spelled in 3 different ways (that would sound very similar)

[@CrocodileTear]

Indeed. But this doesn't explain the non existant birthplace and serial number.

[@giuliobernacchia1848]

Italian is not a language that usually suffers from phonetic spelling mistakes. It is not like English, where written and spoken went their merry ways apart. It might happen that a hurried speaker might pronounce a “”C” that sounds like a “G”, for example, but nothing more than that. And certainly the situation hasn’t changed with time, meaning that the possible mistakes which were made in the 1900 are exactly the same that might be made nowadays. Italian words are pronounced the way they are written and viceversa so the only possible mistakes can come from bad handwriting or from mishearing a word.

[@sugarnads]

​@@giuliobernacchia1848L and R have been interchangeable in many languages throughout history.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@sugarnads And in this case the Caranciaros is apparently in fact Calangianus, so both the G and the L would have been exchanged as both of you have explained.

[@iehhaha3105]

Jean-loupe doing gods work as usual. Keep it up.

[@ersikillian]

A lot of Italians in Italy at the time could not speak or read Italian. They either spoke dielec, or a regional language such as Romagnol (or Romagnolo, as today's Italians insist on calling it) which is still spoken somewhat in Romagnia. The only geographic area which spoke Italian as an everyday language was Tuscanny, and even then it was about 90 percent Italian. Romagnol by the way, is completely indecipherable by other Italians. The joke is: "It sounds like a Russian trying to speak French, or a Frenchman trying to speak Russian".

[@dtaylor10chuckufarle]

In a very Roman Catholic country like Italy, you can check the Baptismal records in the Parish Church. The Church is very good at maintaining these records. Godspeed, Jean-Loup. Godspeed!

[@CrocodileTear]

OK, but in which parish?

[@faithlesshound5621]

Following that train of thought, I know the Mormons have been digitizing birth/baptismal records from all over the world for the International Genealogical Index, which they use in their programme of posthumous conversion of the dead. Not everyone agrees with that, so they probably meet with a lot of obstruction, but might they have relevant files online?

[@JohnSmith-oh9ux]

all of them @@CrocodileTear

[@coconutsdown2265]

Encore et toujours aussi passionnant, merci à vous pour votre travail et pour son partage 😉

[@danieletorti-r2h]

It's a common problem in Italy for that time, for example my great grandmother had as surname NOTTI and her brother has NOTTE. Since her parents didn't speak italian but just Piedmontese dialect they said Nœc to the registry officer, this word measn both "night" (notte) and "nights" (notti)...

[@CrocodileTear]

very interesting!

[@dmeinhertzhagen8764]

Very interesting and mysterious, I hope you find all the answers. I know nothing about the Italian military during WWII but here in Canada and in the USA, it was fairly common for teen boys to try joining the military while underage. Some recruiting offices were very lenient and turned a blind eye while others were much stricter. Some teens created entirely fake identities and it was only discovered much later. The Canadian Legion magazine wrote this; “ Sometimes boys as young as 13 would lie about their age and attempt to enlist in the military. The underage volunteers who looked old enough were often accepted while many of those who were rejected ended up serving in the Merchant Navy, where they supported the war effort in a different way, transporting troops and materials overseas. Outside of Bretteville-sur-Laize Canadian War Cemetery in France, is a monument commemorating Private Gérard Doré, the youngest Canadian soldier to die in the Battle of Normandy. The Québec teenager, who was only 16 when he died in action in 1944, serves as a solemn example of the kind of service Canadian youth made to their country.”

[@CrocodileTear]

Indeed that is a possibility. However, assuming it is a false and invented identity, both the person's false name and his serial number should come out without any issues in the Agrigento archives. With a birth year in 1913, the soldier would already have been in the older part of the spectrum, and this therefore doesnt sound like a fake date of of birth given by an underage soldier.

[@leuvenlife]

Not all heroes wear capes..

[@lancegoodthrust546]

I was just thinking of the Italian Mountain soldiers,(the alpini) , who DID wear capes lol. But I know what you meant.

[@bluemarshall6180]

Atlist they wear their Underwear 🩲.... 🤪

[@lancegoodthrust546]

@@bluemarshall6180 huh?

[@bluemarshall6180]

@@lancegoodthrust546 They wear their underwear out not inn.

[@lancegoodthrust546]

@bluemarshall6180 Ah ok. I guess that was supposed to be some "surrender" joke.

[@gvii]

It's always really interesting to see when you are able to decode something and get a response from the family. This is very interesting in its own right due to the dearth of information. Maybe whomever made the tag was particularly careless that day, or as others mentioned below, there is a very specific reason for it being so out of order. Whatever the situation may be, I do wish you luck in finding an answer.

[@64CHEVL]

Love your videos! Incredibly well done. I think it's a forgery for some unknown purpose. Very intriguing!

[@mogFX]

A couple thoughts occur... These might not be traditional "mistakes" but a product of how they were manufactured. I would guess that these were manufactured by taking individual letter dies or stamps and arranging them into a jig of some kind and then pressing them as a group into the tag. It's likely that a number of people making the tags would share one set. These sets would have a limited number of duplicate letters, so if all the "G" dies were in use, they might be forced to use a letter that was similar ("C"), the letter swapping may have even been standardized. This was a common practice on early printing presses when they did not have sufficient letter stamps for a page. It was also common for 6 & 9, d & p, q & b, 0 & o, i & 1 & l to share dies. Continuing that train of thought, the stamps would be organized into letter bins to be easily and quickly grabbed. Something like a C or G could very easily be placed in the wrong bin, their mirrored nature making them harder to recognize. The next person to use the letter would not bother to look at the stamp itself but at the bin it was placed in. Finally with how poor literacy rates were at the time, and spelling standards tending to either not exist or be very regionalized. Multiple spellings of the same word were very common. It is entirely possibly that some of the "mistakes" were just assumptions on what was an acceptable phonetic spelling of a word. I don't know if any of these scenarios apply, but thought I might offer some unasked for insight into why this might have been so prevalent. Following the above logic it might be possible to create a table of the most common letter swaps using the swaps you've found on other tags as a guide to create a list of possible alternative words to better search the records for. This would be a fairly easy excel spreadsheet to make. Besides the swaps you found I would also look for potential inversions such as the two 6s being 9s or a combination of 9 & 6. Also you should check the most common cursive writing styles of the time and try to match them to print letters they look similar to, it's possible the people making these couldn't read, and were just copying what was written to the best of their ability. You should also consider letters that have a similar sound, if these were being sounded or read to the person making the tag, some of the swaps could have been from mishearing and by considering similar sounding letters when spoken non phonetically you might be able to find where the mistake(s) is at. Regards,

[@CrocodileTear]

Your observations are extremely astute and to the point. But we are talking about identification tags here, not newspapers, so I dare hope (without actually believing), that the Italian army had something slightly better organised than whot you describe.

[@paulk5770]

Could the guys town have been mixed up with his mothers name? Could his town actually be Vittoria? There is a town called Vittoria about 100km from Agrigento

[@CrocodileTear]

The problem when there are mistakes, is that then you can imagine any possible number of corrections, without knowing which could be correct or not.

[@PietroCrovetto]

The mother’s surname sounds like is from Sardinia. Moreover, the village name ending with s (unusual for continental Italy) may point to Sardinia too. Just an idea…

[@CrocodileTear]

See the other comments. someone found a possible match in Calanganus.

[@marksaunderson3042]

If you were a spy you had to blend in, so you might need a dog tag. I would imagine that the allies were aware how Italian dog tags worked. So you end up with a tag that looked perfect, but contained no valid information, because the person it belonged to was not actually in the Italian army, they just wanted to look like they were?

[@stanislavczebinski994]

Makes perfect sense to me - but IDK if it makes sense at the place it was found.

[@paulbradford8240]

Fascinating! And now we have a cliff hanger! You have us all thinking. I thought I had an idea, then scrolled down to find it has already been suggested. With the minds working on it, someone might get lucky!

[@CrocodileTear]

5000 brains certainly work better then one. Several very good suggestions have been made already, and I will be writting several letters today.

[@Momo_Kawashima]

A tip for you, many italian villages that "don't exist" could have changed their name at some point after ww2. It's not uncommon for villages and towns here in Italy to have a different name today than 50 years ago. I believe the only aid you could get is to befriend a bunch of italians from around the country and ask them to snoop around

[@CrocodileTear]

On google you can find numerous webpages and old documents in which long extinct names can still be found.

[@Momo_Kawashima]

@@CrocodileTear never stumbled upon one, but good to know anyhow

[@jimjohandes]

You are extremely thorough and knowledgeable. . Jim in California

[@dazr123]

Another very interesting & well put together video ,thanks for taking the time & effort to put them out. I do not get to watch much YT ,but l always check out what you have put out while l am away .

[@OldLordSpeedy]

2:24 "Gott, Bruno" can mean Gottfried too. In northern Italy they have South Tyrol and Trentino, where many German speaking live since around 2000 years. So of course Italian people can have German names... 😊

[@CrocodileTear]

Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. In this case my hunch was correct, this soldier was not named Gott.

[@Svensk7119]

What I am wondering is if the tag was a counterfeit, meant for infiltration/espionage/sabotage. The quantity of errors is beyond the normal. So, either it is a fake, or for some reason, they gave this man a new identity, the Italian government, perhaps like witness protection in the US. The idea that Italian resistance fighters attempted to infiltrate Il Duce's miltary and only knew enough to keep the district the same, that idea seems the likeliest, to me. Basically, they made everything but the district from whole cloth. It is not as if they could connect to the Internet and double check. The resistance fighters would hope he would be lost in the shuffle. Best thought that I had.

[@jurgenp.schooner8514]

Great video! As always, a joy!

[@michaelovitch]

Arancio c'est un lac dans la province d'Agrigente, sur le territoire des municipalités de Sambuca di Sicilia, Santa Margherita di Belice et Sciacca C A R Arancios c'est peut être "quelque chose avec "CAR" et les "orangers" et non pas arancios c'est peut être "CARBOJ ARANCIO" carboj est un cours d'eau qui irrigue le lac arancio. "arancio" veut dire orange et "arancios" les orangers Tu derais jeter un oeil dans les annuaires de ces localités. Rama ,c'est aussi une localité en Italie,ça peut induire en erreur

[@CrocodileTear]

Le problème avec tout ca, c'est que ca laisse beaucoup de "peut êtres" :) La personne en question est bien née à Rome, pas à Rama. Les gens ont repéré de nombreux Pinducciu vers Calangianus, je pense que la solution est là.

[@michaelovitch]

J'ai trouvé une gazette de 1942 qui recense les cours d'eau sous pression publics de la province dEnna et qui mentionne la provenance et la sortie de la bouche d'eau. Il y a une provenance de "Caranciaro" c'est le nom de la montagne ou vallée ou "partie haute" de l'installation ,et sa sortie "Torcicoda" Torcicoda se trouve au NordEst de la vile agrigente à quelques kms mais s'écrit "Torcicuda" La province d'Enna est au Nord Est de agrigente,et dessert certainement en eau celle ci en 42. Tout ça pour dire que peut être qu'à l'époque, des repères géographiques étaient utilisés pour localiser les gens,à défaut de noms de localités.

[@CrocodileTear]

Je mentionne la montagne Caranciaro dans la video et la réponse que j'ai recu de la ville d'Enna.

[@michaelovitch]

@@CrocodileTear Tu mentionnes caranGiaro comme montagne. Moi je lis CaranCiaro sur la gazette de 1942. En sicilien il n'y a pas de remplacement de C par G donc ce ce sont deux endroits différents. C''est pas comme pour "Torcicoda" qui devient "Torcicuda" en sicilien. Tu devrais prendre en considération les mutations de lettres de l'italien en sicilien et chercher "pintoccio"

[@CrocodileTear]

En effet, je me mélange les pinceaux avec tous ces Caran/Calan-quelque-chose 😄 Caranciaro ne sort qu'une seule fois sur google. Je trouve ca suspect et je suppose qu'il s'agit d'un Carangiaros mal orthographié.

[@michaelovitch]

@@CrocodileTear La même conduite d'eau sur la même gazette en 1936 et 1971 et 2004 est orthographiée "Carangiaro" et débouche toujours à Torcicoda. Il y a donc bien une faute d'orthographe à ce nom sur la gazette de 1942 Mais il n'y a pas de "S" à la fin. C'est toujours dans la province régionale de l'Enna et c'est dans le vallon dello stretto, vallon sciortabene au monte Carangiaro. Il y a le villagio Pergusa collé au monte Carangiaro,ça peut valoir le coup de demander.

[@CrocodileTear]

Si j'ai bien suivi, tout ca se trouve dans la commune d'Enna, et Enna m'a dit qu'ils n'ont pas de traces de Pintuccios.

[@bswins9648]

Unfortunately, I don't have any new suggestions to try. However, I thought of two possible explanations: [1] The ID tag was a test piece made by a worker who was learning how to typeset/press/etc. [2] The tag was made with fake credentials by an expert forger for a POW escape. When (not if) you solve this mystery, I doubt either will be the actual explanation, but both are valid reasons for why the person named on the tag "doesn't exist". I can't wait to hear when you figure it out!

[@CrocodileTear]

This tag was found in a front line foxhole, so I dont think either of those two explanations is satisfactory. Several viewers gave me some new hints that I will be exploring.

[@bswins9648]

@@CrocodileTear The "front line foxhole" location casts even more doubt on my suggestions than before. I missed that fact earlier. I had just finished watching The Great Escape again, so I may have had The Forger angle as my initial thought. Regardless, I hope your viewer hints pan out. As always, I look forward to your video.

[@lindsayheyes925]

​@@CrocodileTearThe "ratlines" run by GB's MI9 to recover British and American evaders were very complex, and sympathetic serving soldiers in the Italian and German armies both aided escapes and helped with funding the ratlines. I wonder if this chap had been one of the deserters who had formed resistance groups in Italy. He could have rejoined to get intelligence or assist other desertions, but been unable to avoid getting sent to that foxhole. Helen Fry's book "Mi9" throws some light on the methods and extent of their work in Italy, and it seems that there were numerous Italians and Germans serving in their armies while supporting allied evaders.

[@Guillermo90r]

Looking through the comments, crossing my fingers that Florindo’s information appears. Looked for him in la Gazzetta Ufficiale hoping he was given a military award, but found nothing yet.

[@captainsergeant]

In law enforcement, undercover detectives are authorized to have a completely fictitious identification created (drivers license or ID card). Is there a chance that there was some sort of special military unit back then that would utilize such a false ID?

[@CrocodileTear]

Considering the front line fox hole this was found in, I really dont think so

[@GerardMenvussa]

If this hypothesis were to be explored, I wonder if modern Italian intelligence services have a record of this kind of things.

[@user-tk5fi1my5i]

@@GerardMenvussa If they did have a record of this sort of thing, I don't think they're going to share it with anyone, even though it's been almost 80 years since the war ended.

[@pg123ab]

Nah. Blame it on illiteracy. Just like the guy who insists it’s a US helmet and misspells half of his sentences. Lol

[@faithlesshound5621]

It seems there is a whole chunk of numbers that were not allocated by the military district of Agrigento to soldiers born in 1909, but series before and after that chunk were used. Could a chunk have been allocated to a special unit that bypassed the normal records? Not necessarily secret, just not the normal infantry. Maybe that unit's records were lost to bombing or fire.

[@marcoravenna]

I think that the last line it’s just the province where the town of residence in the upper line is ( that usually helps to identify the town if it’s small or there’s another with the same name in another province) . In fact when the city is also the provincial capital city ther’a just one line ( firenze and roma as you showed in this video for example )

[@CrocodileTear]

No, as far as I know it is the town of birth, and if the person moved, then the town of birth is not in the same military district as that listed at the bottom of the tag. I have a tag of a man obrn in Tchekoslovakia for example, but the military district is in Italy of course. Sine most people lived where they were born, in most cases the village and district will match as you say.

[@Stray03]

Odd that it is so close to Arancia Rossa (red orange or blood orange) (and with a sicilian dialect the Sa would probably disappear from it if someone wrote it down as they heard it. Long shot but try military district 59 instead.

[@fixento]

Unforgivable that his country lost or misplaced his records.

[@kskdtr]

i live in San Giovanni in Persiceto, just by Crevalcore.... if you need an help... and by the way, it hits me close to home

[@CrocodileTear]

Thanks but I contacted that guy's familly 20 years ago.

[@helenalima2144]

Interessante! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Espero que consiga decifrar a veracidade da tag. E pelo que li nos comentários, muitos dispostos em ajudar. Boa sorte😉

[@gianninodibiase309]

Eran soldados de infantería italianos, durante el desembarco de los estadounidenses en Sicilia, se rindieron a los estadounidenses, eran artilleros en las posiciones de las baterías costeras en Sicilia.

[@CrocodileTear]

El verdadero nombre del pueblo es Carangeijinhas.

[@enriquemireles8947]

Do all dog tags you research are recovered with remains? 20 to 30% is a lot of mistakes. But when you mentioned many were unable to read and right it makes sense. When you stated it may have been someone from another country Argentina came to mind. Good luck thank you for what you do.

[@CrocodileTear]

No, it is exceptional to find ID tags with remains. The vast majority of ID tags were lost and their owners survived the war.

[@BackSeatHump]

Should I assume you’ve already tried Switzerland - Berne (di Berna) or in or around the region of Ticino or Grisons?

[@CrocodileTear]

No. It does not say "di Berna", but "di Bernardo".

[@mikeprice4103]

Another fun video!! Thanks

[@johnschofield9496]

So sad for the family !

[@CrocodileTear]

This tag was not found with a body and there is no evidence it belonged to a soldier who died during the war.

[@tinkertron]

I worked on the surname Virgilio here in the U.S. (Italian-American) family.

[@Francois15031967]

The last mention on the tag is the province where the city of birth is located.

[@CrocodileTear]

Not really. It ususaly is the province where the city of birth is located, because people didnt move much back then. But when people did move, then the city of birth and the province do not match. You can have some with locations of birth outside Italy for example.

[@RicardoRMedina]

Looks like a sample dog tag with fictitious information to be used as a pattern to train personnel how to enter information on blank tags.

[@tinkertron]

Portale Antenati needs to upload their records!!!

[@justanopinion_really]

Have you concidered the individual may have been an abandoned and homeless as a child? He may have made up a name, family, date of birth, and may not have been born in any of municipalities of the Province of Agrigento. As for the 11683, does the number coincide with another municipality?

[@CrocodileTear]

What you are saying is totaly possible. I dont know to what degree the Italian army was verifying its information in those days. Probably not much.

[@user-tk5fi1my5i]

Is it possible that the soldier wasn't from Italy, and so they made up a town in Italy. Maybe they made up the rest of the information too. Also, could it be possible that the gap in the serial numbers could be for soldiers that aren't from Italy? I'm curious to know if they would still put the place where the soldier is from if he wasn't born in Italy. Like if he was an Italian American and born in New York, would they put New York on his dog tag, or make up an Italian place to put on it? Love the videos. Keep up the good work.

[@CrocodileTear]

If the person was not born in Italy, then they would simply put his location of birth anyways. I have one for a guy born in Tchekoslovakia, and I have seen one for a guy born in California.

[@tomsherwood4650]

I have a French tag and was able to get the soldier information from the French government in an email but then my thought was to return it to a family member if possible. That went nowhere. Not that they said no one could be located, my requests got no replies.

[@CrocodileTear]

The government will never waste time with such things. You have to do the research yourself: write to his hometown, write to homonyms, look up possible relatives on the internet, etc.

[@brittakriep2938]

Could this be a demonstration piece, to show the Administration soldiers, how to make this plates? In current Germany, when official documents are shown in newspapers, wallpapers (?) etc., you can read the fictional name Max Mustermann.

[@CrocodileTear]

No, it was found on a very real battlefield. At least 5 men called Mustermann were killed during WWII as members of the German army. No Max though.

[@brittakriep2938]

@@CrocodileTear : There is a reason, why Mustermann appears on pictures of german documents. My english is limited, but i try it to explain. Once in weapons production, the musket or saberproducers got a weapon from ,Army', which had seals of wax and Metal, and an added document, that Gouvernement wants for example 2000 muskets of this Design. This musket with the seals and papers was the ,Muster', so Mustermann is a funny way of describing , common man' .

[@foamyflightmaster9385]

Interesting stuff, context is everything where was the I'd tag found and what units were in that area? Might need to think outside the box a bit.

[@CrocodileTear]

I know what units where in the area the tag comes from, but since they have no rosters, not much can be done from that.

[@pg123ab]

Funny they also had misspelling errors in the first letter. It’s not quando (when the village) but quanto (in regards to the aforementioned village we have no knowledge of its existence)

[@CrocodileTear]

I get the impression the responses were written in haste.

[@user-tk5fi1my5i]

Maybe the dog tag was made for someone not actually in the military, and they put a random serial number, and some other information that wasn't real, or wasn't the normal info that would be put on them. When my dad was in the military he had some dog tags made for me and my brothers. They had much of what normal dog tags would have on them, but me and my brothers were never in the military. So maybe it was made as a joke, or for some other weird reason.

[@CrocodileTear]

This was found in a frontline foxhole on a real battlefield. So I am pretty sure whoever lost it was a real soldier.

[@brentandvuk]

Great video, good luck

[@SNOUPS4]

The question is: why do the serial numbers skip a whole series of numbers? Is it a special unit? Police?

[@CrocodileTear]

I dont know why they skip, and apparently the staff at the archives doesnt know either. These serial numbers were given out to the young men of the district, regardless of the uni they were in. So there is no link to any sort of particular unit.

[@robertshotzberger]

Many Italians emigrated to Argentina.

[@keelienne]

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.. I don’t think these are mistakes, this was made on purpose. Everything is ALMOST right, but just wrong enough to not be identified nor „compared“ - I mean that no one can come from the same town or family. Whoever made this Tag knew exactly what he did. That the serial numbers were left out for that year, so it is not already existing for another guy, nor would someone memorate it because „it’s just two digits away from mine“. This tags owner wanted to be as invisible as possible- and that in my opinion indicates secret service. Is it possible to learn how secret service agents, who had tasks at or near the frontlines, were made to blend in? Especially SIM and OVRA? I think the two truths are his year of birth and his mothers first name, and I think that in the other „facts“ are hints for identification that were known then. „Florinde“ for example could hint to look in Florence, maybe here was a headquarter? However, speculations don’t get results, but maybe this would be a path worth following.

[@theflyingfool]

Intriguing!

[@eldoncurrey2124]

Could see if 75583 is the number. 7s and 1s can sometimes be flip flopped...

[@CrocodileTear]

As you see in the 1913 registry of serial numbers from Agrigento shown in the video, they do not go into the 70000s that year.

[@-CCdude]

How did you get get the tags? Back step through history and find out who had them and when, if possible...

[@robertsaget6918]

Would love to see you get an honorary degree in battlefield archeology

[@brianford1346]

Some heroes were born well after the war ended. We are watching one here.

[@HippoXXL]

Maybe the tag belongs to some kind of secret service? If the guy gets caught, all data the enemy could check (like what the district 60 is), is correct. The serial number is from a contingent that was never used officially - for an unknown reason and different from usus. And all the names seem to be made up, otherwise your research would have brought at least anything to daylight. Greeting from Germany, Marcus

[@robheidel5627]

I think you have a case of intentionally false I.D. here. Why, who or how? Probably no way of knowing.

[@nigelh2696]

This is off topic. There are the skeletal remains of an Italian POW displayed at the Alfred Denny Museum, Sheffield University. Staff didn't know much other than the person was executed by hanging sometime during or shortly after WW1. I think its about time he was interred or repatriated.

[@CrocodileTear]

From my experience as shown in my video "Deadly typos", I am quite sure nobody will care about this soldier, except if he turns out being part of a so called minority.

[@kevinrose3737]

If you have the dog tag then there is a body behind it so where is that body? another unknown grave. How did the tag get found in the first place! great work

[@CrocodileTear]

Most ID tags are found with no body, just like this one was. Italian ID tags had very fragile chains, so they lost large numbers of them.

[@robert-trading-as-Bob69]

It seems strange that 500 consecutive numbers were not used OFFICIALLY. Was this a standard practice in the Italian armed forces then? Are there other blocks of numbers missing? Could those numbers have been kept free for Intelligence personnel? While there are criminals who hide in armies, there are also people who lie in order to serve because they are too old or too young. I myself forged an army ID in 1989 using someone elses name and details, but with my photograph which I used to go AWOL. The operator left his machine unattended to go for lunch, so a couple of us issued our own new identities. It is possible that the soldier involved bribed the machine operator to issue a false dog tag.

[@CrocodileTear]

I dont know why the blocks are missing. Perhaps the register with preprepared blocks were sent out to recruitment centers, and they did not all use up ther numbers in the year? In any case the archives gave no explanation and didnt seem to care. If a soldier registered with a false ID, then that false ID should be recorded in the registers.

[@robert-trading-as-Bob69]

@CrocodileTear 500 missing numbers 16500 to 17000 is very neat, so it is obviously not random. Can the archives tell if this has happened before and after as well? When did the numbers go missing, and what was happening in Italy at the time those numbers went missing? If you can't find your individual, try looking at the whole group to solve the mystery. Good luck.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@robert-trading-as-Bob69 16500 and 17000 are numbers I said oraly in the video to simplify. The actual letter they sent (at 8:39 in the video) said the numbers 16574 to 17060. These numbers are actualy not very neat, and in fact rather weird. Although the archives were very kind to respond to each of my requests promptly, the topic is obviously not of much interest to them, and each answer was as brief as possible. I would like to know more, but I think an Italian who can go to the archives in person would be better suited to find out what happened to that block of numbers.

[@robert-trading-as-Bob69]

@@CrocodileTear That makes sense. Someone on the spot is always better. I love a good mystery!

[@RubenKelevra]

The missing serial number block in the different year is the strongest clue. I bet they were put out in batches to different workers in the office and when the block returned, they put it into the archive for this specific year. So the worker pulled out a serial block, wrote everything down for the year 1913 and never returned this paper to the archive. OR: It was used for a specific type of soldiers, like e.g., a Foreign Legion or something like this, and thus is kept in a different archive - like the one in Rome. Ask the archives if they can look up the block of serial numbers for you, regardless of the year they were archived, and ask them if they tell you if there's any other records which may contain these files - say maybe he was in the air force not in the infantry etc.

[@RubenKelevra]

Another option I wasn't thinking of is, that the guy may have been from a different country. Say if he was Greek and wrote down his name etc. and two persons would need to interpret it, and translate it to Latin letters, this could be what you end up with.

[@AndrewDibb-ro3uz]

absolutely. Incompetence and error are endemic in militaries. Incompetence and error are endemic in civilian bureaucracies. Here you have to deal with the exponential combination of the two. Never assume a conspiracy where simple cock-up is an adequate explanation

[@RubenKelevra]

@@AndrewDibb-ro3uz nobody assumed a conspiracy 😂

[@AndrewDibb-ro3uz]

@@RubenKelevra wasnt suggesting you did. Many others here are - I was agreeing with your suggesting the possibility of simple human error causing a measure of the confusion. I think you missed the first word in my post

[@sammni]

LOL I should've watched for 20 seconds more..... Was on google earth looking up the village and couldn't find it

[@PALM311]

Perhaps it’s Carcano Italy? And was just a mistake?

[@gary851]

ITALIANS!!! ye even on name tag... i just love them :)

[@TeddyBear-ii4yc]

Who stamped the 'dog tags' out? The same question regards the issuing of a service no? Who issues both? Was this at local recruitment or depot level (town or city), at a district level (area), or was it national and in Rome? If the latter, I think it was constructed to deceive (maybe the guy crossed the front lines or was an informant in POW camp. (why include false details on everything? Could be to remove all doubt from an unfortunate soul who could share enough details to be confused with and implicated in what the 'informer' was involved with?) Could the Vatican be involved and a fake identity given to a... could be anything, they were getting Germans out of Europe to South America after ww2. Cheers 👍

[@CrocodileTear]

I dont know who stamped the ID tags, but the serial numbers were attributed locally at the military district level apparently.

[@sharonrigs7999]

I wonder if any nation presently uses plastic or composite tags?

[@CrocodileTear]

Plastic is not a good idea in case of fire.

[@frankfreeman1444]

Dear badmonkey: I would assume that handle is a shortened version of bad even for a monkey. Speaking of wannabe youtubers, were you looking in a mirror as you typed that? Your logic chain is amazing on so many levels. Hell, I visited Berlin, so I guess that makes me a fan of Adolf Hitler in your mind, and I fought in Vietnam, so I must not have round eyes. You should contact the Biden administration. I am sure they would have a place for your skills.

[@andreaagosta9776]

Mother’s surname and village name have a Sardinian sound

[@alandahlstrom7213]

One thing I was wondering if this was just a sample ID tag with just made up names, serial number, etc. or even a counterfeit ID tag with made up information for espionage purposes.

[@suizod]

It could be Caranciara, comune di Enna.

[@michaelmayo3127]

Have you tried the number 26683? My be a rogue soldier or the tag of a foriegn intelligence operative. Someone has gone to great lengths, to hide; the true identity behind this tag!!

[@CrocodileTear]

I have not tried that number. The archives in Agrigento seem to have become fed up of my questions. I will have to send them a box of chocolates.

[@C.A._Old]

*wow... who knows what next unknown things still out there?*

[@CrocodileTear]

Nobody can know until you find the item!

[@simosimo63]

È incredibile questa targhetta con cosi tanti errori! Sono italiana e provo imbarazzo

[@InspectorGadget1976]

If you were to design an 'Ideal' dogtag, what would it look like and what information would it contain?

[@alexhidell8022]

Name, Serial Number, Date of Birth, Place of Birth, Service Branch (Army, Navy, Airforce, etc..)

[@InspectorGadget1976]

@@alexhidell8022 Taking into account modern materials, what would it be made from etc

[@user-tk5fi1my5i]

@@alexhidell8022 Don't forget blood type. American military dog tags have the person's blood type on them. Many also have what religion you are.

[@CrocodileTear]

I would make it is stainless steel that resists fire and burial. On the tag I would have the full name, the location and date of birth and a unique serial number. In cases of very common names, why not also include the mother's name, or something else. These Italian dog tags are normaly very good, as long as there are not 15 mistakes on them ;)

[@joey243win]

I wonder if the lists of serial numbers exist for Trapani region

[@CrocodileTear]

I am pretty sure they do. This tag is an exception, the first time I have had issues with an Italian tag.

[@joey243win]

@@CrocodileTear have you tried the Albo D ‘Oro for the ww1 KIA Maybe the names show up there?? Just a thought

[@Booze_Rooster]

False enlistment perhaps? Seems to be too many errors to be bad luck. Seems to be deliberate obfuscation.

[@CrocodileTear]

Even with a false enlistment, you should be able to find the false ID in the list of serial numbers.

[@montybasset]

Could he be an SOE agent? Or a spy? 007 etc. Ciao

[@walkercustoms]

Thank you

[@georgewhite522]

Realistically there is so much incorrect information that it begs the question wether it was done on purpose, to have an entire serial number record blanked leads me to believe possible special forces type unit. Regardless of what information is on the tag or given by the soldier, the ID number should still register to a person. The fact that it does not, plus the current other supporting information (or lack their of) leads me to think possible type of clandestine activity.

[@CrocodileTear]

I think there is simply a mistake in the name which is why they didnt find it in their lists, and also a mistake in the serial number. Several viewers found there is a Pinducciu (not Pintuccio) family in a village called Calangianus, we will soon know if that is perhaps the solution.

[@gillespriod5509]

​@@CrocodileTearThis sounds plausibile even if thats in Sardinia

[@CrocodileTear]

@@gillespriod5509 The birthplace could even be in another country, that isnt an issue.

[@georgewhite522]

My mistake then, it seems so strange in terms of odds that it had so many errors, but as you have displayed with some of the Americans, there can be numerous errors on even a single page so very plausible too @@CrocodileTear

[@georgewhite522]

I guess a second point is that even in Italy and other countries in WW2 a lot of enlisted and NCOs were not literate, many could read but not write @@CrocodileTear

[@pm8465]

Could it just be that the serial numbers are mistakenly inverted and the 16683 should read 19983. Apologise if you've already checked this.

[@CrocodileTear]

There are a whole bunch of possibilities of mistaes, and I cant check them myself. There have been some very good suggestions made here though, so I will be sending out more letters to possible hometowns and the state archive and we will see what comes of it.

[@Purdue1986Boiler]

My wifes great grandfather was missing in action in the first world war. She recently acquired italian citizenship but getting the death certificate for him was rather difficult process. Was wondering what the history and background for finding lost WWI soldiers is?

[@CrocodileTear]

Your question is vast. But you can obtain service records, including causes of death, very easily, wether as a foreigner or not.

[@angelzipp]

What about using "Florindo" as family name and "Pintuccio" as first name? Just a shot in the dark, I know it sounds maybe a childish idea.

[@CrocodileTear]

I dont think that is the issue.

[@helengrunow5094]

I really enjoy your content. A ‘spy’ maybe? Thankyou & Cheers!

[@CrocodileTear]

I dont think there were any hotshot spies in the myserable front line foxhole this was found in.

[@quirkygreece]

Is it possible that the tag is a fake? Not just the information, but the actual thing? Is it possible to get the metal checked to see if it’s the same metal that other tags are made from? Just a thought, because (slight digression here) there are a few Commonwealth Victoria Cross medals that have been tested by metallurgists and found to be fake because the structure of the metal is not correct. It’s probably an expensive test, of course, and even if it was found to be the case, that would just open another can of worms as to why anyone would fake a dogtag . . .

[@CrocodileTear]

I really dont think it is fake. I have never seen Egyptians have fake WWII items and the things that are considered precious by Bedouins and tourists alike are German items with a swastica. In the meantime I think I have solved this case. Contrary to what I thought, in Indian units, each unit had its own serial numbers, so there could have been multiple Indian soldiers with this serial number. The marking COE is strange for an Indian, but I dont see any other solution other than this tag being for an Indian soldier.

[@abhishekkushwaha2455]

@@CrocodileTearAny update so far?

[@CrocodileTear]

@@abhishekkushwaha2455 Nothing worth sharing.

[@smooth0per8r5]

I’m sorry if I missed this in the video or comments, was the tag found with human remains? If so, forensic genealogy might be an option for you.

[@CrocodileTear]

Non of these tags were found with human remains. This is just research ouf of curiosity.

[@smooth0per8r5]

​@CrocodileTear that sort of puts my mind at ease a bit. I was afraid this was the case of a KIA Italian soldier who is an unknown due to his dogtags being so incorrectly marked.

[@CrocodileTear]

No. But if you look at some of my other videos about the Germans at Villeneuve-Loubet, the deadly typos or X-77, it really is/was such situations of unidentified bodies.

[@smooth0per8r5]

@@CrocodileTear the video on X-77 was the first video of yours that I came across with the video on how German dog tags are formatted being the third. You are doing amazing work. I mentioned it earlier, but has there been efforts to use things like forensic genealogy in instances similar to Villeneuve-Lorbet? With how prevalent DNA testing is in the commercial world now that might yield some results. Would also clear up instances of switched dog tags.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@smooth0per8r5 The German war graves commission doesnt normaly attempt to use DNA. As for the French, I think the X-77 video shows how motivated they are to try to attempt to identify their war dead. In many countries in Europe DNA testing is strictly controled, France is one of them.

[@ww2canadiancollector844]

Have you ever seen any items with the last name DeRosa or Derosa both my great grandfather and his brother were in the Italian army during WW2 and I am trying to find there records

[@CrocodileTear]

No. But if you know their dates and locations of birth, you can easily request a copy of their files.

[@ww2canadiancollector844]

@@CrocodileTear ok great just asked my grandma

[@CrocodileTear]

watch my video "very friendly fire", it explains how to make a service record request in Italy

[@ww2canadiancollector844]

@@CrocodileTear thank you do I just put the money in the letter?

[@CrocodileTear]

No. They have an annoying website to pay the few buckazoids you will owe them.

[@Michael-no6jw]

It makes me think that all the people who made the tags weren't all Italians.

[@CrocodileTear]

The Italian tags were great, much better than most other nations of the period. Have you seen my video about the German ones: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmHTgK1vaaqdZ8k

[@DM-sp3zs]

Was he some sort of Italian spy or special forces and his dog tags were created with false information?

[@thurin84]

maybe this was a soldier that enlisted under an assumed name, maybe because he had a police record or something.

[@CrocodileTear]

In that case, you should be able to find him listed with his false name at the archives, based on his serial number and his false name.

[@pixiniarts]

Is there a body attached to the tag? Because DNA might get you more information to go on... Not comparison DNA but just a DNA makeup, might get you area, genetics etc. Other than that, I would have thought you could figure out units, the after action reports might list casualties, are there Italian MIA records? Might get lucky and find a different name on the records. Who was he fighting there might give clues too, if it was British or American their units might have their own records. If you can find people he was with, that might get you closer to him. POWs from the area, would have their tags recorded, as would the grave reg units record enemy KIA. Last thought could the guy be military intelligence or a spy? It might be worth going back out to the site metal detecting, I know many detectorists that go to the same site for years each time picking up new items. It's long shots I know but sometimes it's surrounding information that is key.

[@CrocodileTear]

The tag was found on its own on a battlefield, without any indication that this soldier was a casualty of any type

[@pixiniarts]

@@CrocodileTear Thanks! Because all the information doesn't lead anywhere I'd still be thinking OSS can I ask where the battlefield was? Was there any other items found around it, or trash? It would be unusual for the tag to be isolated. Still might be a good idea to go back and detect in the same place.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@pixiniartsthe information does lead somewhere, as was pointed out by some of the Italian viewers. In a village with a similar name, there was a family with a similar names... The strange thing is that they have no file in the archives...

[@pixiniarts]

@@CrocodileTear You'd think they'd pick someone literate to do their records and admin, especially such important records. Most curios... If the village was small you could try the nearest biggest town their library, council or churches might have records? It was a feature looking into our family that we found the family drifted from a smaller town to the nearest big town, so you might find relatives with the surname in the graveyard of that nearest bigger town.

[@CrocodileTear]

@@pixiniarts Italian ID tags have incredible mistakes. The worst I saw is "Roma" spelled "Rama"... I sent letters to the other possible town, etc, to no avail and got sick of it. What I would like to know is his unit and what happened to him during the war, and in my experience, the few times ITalian families display any interest in this sort of thing, they in any case have no idea about their relatives military service. So right now the research is on pause.

[@thomasvoet534]

Is there an explanation on why the serial numbers made such a jump in 1909?

[@CrocodileTear]

Hmm... I think naught.

[@brianbernstein7754]

I'm guessing it's a made up name. My father enlisted in the US Navy at the age of 17 and fought in WWII. For reasons I can't figure out -- he changed his first name from Carl (on his birth certificate) to Karl (on his military ID, dog tags, etc). Maybe he was worried he'd get caught and changing his first name would make it more difficult to detect. Who knows...he was only 17...kids do stupid things. Pintuccio probably had his own reasons for disguising his identity. Anyway, wish you all the best in your investigation.

[@CrocodileTear]

Even if this is an invented ID, it should be registered in the Agrigento state archives under both the serial number and the fake name.

[@brianbernstein7754]

Dr. Gassend, yes I agree w/ you. I went back and watched your video again. It's puzzling why there's a gap in the Agrigento records for the soldier's tag number (16,683). Since the military district (60) seems to be the only reliable information, is it possible that a specific set of tag numbers in Agrigento (i.e., 16,500 - 17,000) were set aside or designated for a particular purpose. Was it a common practice? And, if so, how would one find that out? And does the location of where the tag was found provide any clues about the units involved in combat in that area? @@CrocodileTear

[@CrocodileTear]

@@brianbernstein7754 Agrigento would have assigned serial numbers to all the soldiers in the district, regarless of age, unit, etc. I dont know why they skipped hundreds of numbers at one point. I dont think it means this guy is in the skipped numbers, as he is not born the right year to have those numbers anyways. I suspect there is a diggit wrong in the serial number and als a mistake in the name, and that is why they can locate him neither with the name or the number. Some other viewers have found a possible match, a Pinduccio from Calangianus... I will be verifying that passibility asap. I have a good idea of the unit, but am saving that as joker, as in any case knowing a person's unit cannot help you track him down when it comes to Italian records.

[@brianbernstein7754]

Just a thought, but if you think it's some sort of transposition error in the soldier's tag number, perhaps Agrigento could send you an electronic file of all the tag number issued by the district during WWII -- and you could then sort by different tag numbers (that include common transposition errors). I worked in Finance/Accounting my entire career and transposition errors were common. Anyway, best of luck Dr. Gassend @@CrocodileTear