The Narrative and Thematic Importance of Godwyn's Death in Elden Ring

[@aR0ttenBANANA]

The more I learn about Godwyn and the more I think he’s basically just Elden Ring Jesus.

[@TyIzNotHere]

He’s just Baldr, so kinda.

[@geordiejones5618]

​@@TyIzNotHerehe's better than Baldr or Jesus. He was a warrior that went toe to toe with the ancient dragons and had the wisdom to be magnanimous in victory. He could fight and he knew when and how not to fight.

[@AntiSocialismo50]

​@@geordiejones5618 he is baldur from north mitology, his death trigger the shattering(ragnarok)

[@m4eou]

Baldur and Jesus have some comon features, as many mythos in modern culture, Marika is odin, God, and is crucified with a spear in her chest, Elden ring loves mixing religion concepts common to all, like shamanism, Paganism, christianism, kabalism and even real science to back it up, like the theory of mushroms. Miyazaki and George are both students of European folkrore and like to smoke weed till dawn thinking how unlikely but cool would be that Aliens created the pyramids

[@theoneguyoverthere]

Some people had similar thoughts about Miquella, and we all saw how that turned out. Honestly, the best thing for Godwyn’s reputation is for him to stay dead, because if he’s ever brought back in DLC or a sequel, he’s probably going to turn into a villain as well.

[@BuddhaJames08]

I agree with your point about Marika. All of her children where reminders of the past or threats to her order. Messmer with fire and serpent (like the god devouring serpent) Melina dreams of fire and maybe gloam eyed queen so had to put her down, Morgott and Mogh both hornsent, Melenia scarlet rot in which messmer's crusade help spread, and Miquilla who turned his back on the golden order because they could not fix what he wanted fixed. Godwyn was a reminder that even after all she had sacrificed to become a Goddess and queen, she still could not save her family.

[@geordiejones5618]

There's a video recently that described Mesmer and Melina as vassals of conquered outer gods and I really like that idea.

[@iamdoom9810]

I think Godwyn embodies Marika's compassion. It's a brutal reminder that the worst tragedies can happen to even the best of people.

[@BuddhaJames08]

@@iamdoom9810 i thin he embodied "golden before the order" from the minor erdtree incantation. I can see it.

[@moonlapsepiano]

Another amazing video! I really enjoy your video essays. You are really putting together some great content for the community here! Lots to think about in this video I really had not ever considered Marika's in this light (the victim vs blood on her hands thing)

[@owlbatross9187]

Thanks again my friend! That's my hope - to keep producing unique content for the community that helps everyone to look at this games in a different way. Marika's such an interesting character and I look forward to covering her some more in future videos.

[@gart4575]

Finally, someone who understands why Godwyn wasn’t and shouldn’t be revived. Nice to see someone who payed attention to the narrative. Good analysis my guy.

[@owlbatross9187]

Thank you, I really appreciate the support! More analysis videos just like this one are on the way!

[@cpt_micky]

FINALLY! NARRATIVE AND THEME ENJOYER SPOTTED! Elden Ring has been plagued with "lore over all" conversations for so long now that people forget this is an actual story, not a dnd campaign background!

[@The_Crimson_Shogun]

People underestimate the power of the narrative and theme.

[@VictorIV0310]

Marika’s removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring accomplishes multiple things: - It ensures that no one can truly die but be reincarnated via Erdtree burial. - A threat to her power is sealed away by her half-brother and shadow, Maliketh - The Hornsent are condemned to an eternity of suffering and persecution from the crusaders in the Realm of Shadow where they become little more than spirits and shades or worse, man-flies.

[@joesaiditstrue]

I like the theory that Godwyn was actually cursed as well, with Deathblight. They never show his legs, and as we know with Rogier, Deathblight initially attacks your legs.

[@maurienvy]

It would be interesting, but there is no mention of it in any of the in-game lore, is it?

[@joesaiditstrue]

@@maurienvy yeah it's 100% speculation

[@Gohan262]

@@maurienvy Hornsent Grandam says "A curse upon all of your children." Godwyn the Golden, the scion, always seemed the perfect 'golden child' - a common euphemism implying it's just an appearance of perfection. If he was part of GRRM's original treatise, it makes sense that, as he would inherit and be the face of the Golden Order, he must conceal his curse. Marika wouldn't suffer another child, after Messmer and possibly Melina, defacing her grand design.

[@deathandrebirth-y8x]

he was merman. to usher the age of the deep

[@mat3393gjh]

Thx for providing a sensical theory about Goldwyn not being resurrected like radahan.

[@vilek_7235]

I also think the remembrance of a lord and consort seems to make a lot of people think Miquella admired Radahn for his kindness due to the part that reads: "his strength, and his kindness, which stand in stark contrast with their afflicted selves" I personally think thats either a mistranslation or just poor phrasing. The sentence seems to be addressing both Miquella and Radahn at the same time, due to how it mentions the contrast between their afflicted selves So what I think it actually means is: "with Radahn's strength, and Miquella's kindness..." Which makes a lot of sense considering how Marika chose fucking Hoarah Loux as her consort, and Miquella seems to be a parallel to her in the DLC I really think a consort in Elden Ring lore might as well mean "pet warlord" lmao

[@miketheodd2972]

So true

[@Writh811]

A few things to consider. At the inception of the Golden Order, Destined Death was removed and Queen Marika declared herself the only god. This means the Godskin hunts would have had to occur before Marika founded the Golden Order. Based on the DLC it is more likely that the Godskin hunts targeted the gods of the Hornsent era. Hornsent culture was intensely polytheistic producing many deities among them for example the Tutelary Deities. The "Outer God Heirloom" discusses the burning of one such Tutelary and depicts them. If Messmer and Melina are to be considered a pair they share a lot: both linked to fire, both used by Marika to get rid of an enemy, both discarded by her. Also we have no reason to believe Ranni picked Godwyn. The Black Knives got their daggers and went out to kill a handful of Marika's kin. Godwyn just happened to be first... Ya wanna know why the Black Knives agreed to go along with this whole thing in the first place? They come from the eternal cities but harbor ambitions of ruling the next age. We often hear about the Nox trying to "make a Lord" but ruling with the Elden Ring isn't just a Lord's business, we know that. So why only a lord? Answer; because Ranni was THEIR Empyrean. I don't mean that made her or any crap like that. When Ranni finds out she is an Empyrean she likely threw in with the Nox. The Nox had their Empyrean and all they needed for her was a lord, thus trying to make a lord. Then one day their precious Empyrean had a request or maybe a demand. The Black Knives did their part but as their escape crumbled, they realized their Empyrean had vanished. They had no idea of where she went but they know she basically screwed them. This is why Iji and Blaidd get attacked. Our actions in stealing Finger Slayer Blade and helping Ranni let's them know she is back and they target her people for the betrayal.

[@Interdimensional_rell]

Maybe marika said to the greater will “i have finally given thee a perfect child and still you let him be felled” and maybe after that moment she didn’t believe in the greater will

[@demoneyez97]

imagine we get a dlc in the same vain as Ds1 dlc where we travel back to the past and WE are the ones sent to kill godwyn

[@qaztim11]

That piano version of the bat elder song is so good. That song gains a lot of new meaning with the Shaman Village lore.

[@charlesatanasio]

Golden one, at whom were you angry?

[@ravendelacour1917]

"Godwyn is still valiantly clinging to death."

[@TheBurqueG505]

I don’t think Godwyn was free of a curse, I think he was cursed with deathblight but it didn’t manifest till much later and he became sick and bed ridden, and Marika wanted to find someway to heal him but Ranni saw an opportunity to free herself and mercy kill Godwyn

[@themaniae4803]

Problem is Deathblight borns with him and from the ritual Ranni did. Just from that moment Those who live in death starts to emerge.

[@TheBurqueG505]

@@themaniae4803 not necessarily, there’s a hidden boss dancing beast in the DLC in the Rauh ruins that uses it.

[@themaniae4803]

@@TheBurqueG505 The fact a Dancing Lion can use it don't means it was so old. Dancing Lions summons divine powers and after maybe centuries, Deathblight now is a divine power as all the things that you can use about it requires some faith. Even because, all the time the game talks abour Deathblight, Godwyn is there, while Rot and Blood we have other interactions before and after Malenia and Mohg. Even because the lion summons Basilisks, that literally have Godwyn'a eyes.

[@TheBurqueG505]

@@themaniae4803 I think it’s very unlikely that the hornset would take on a divine power of Marikas children, also I think it would explain why Godwyns offspring took to grafting and why Godwyn husk is under stormveil.

[@themaniae4803]

@@TheBurqueG505 Who said Hornsent knew something about that? We found just One Dancing lion capable of that, hidden in a old temple in an area you can reach only after Black Keep. They surely would not use a power of Marika's son, but Dancing Beasts are not hornsents. (The two bodies are Hornsents probably, but the Beast that possess them and the costume is something divine above them) For the Grafting, it's said that the Golden Lineage made their blood less and less divine until Godrick had just a little of it, enough to call it Demigod. For Godwyn under Stormveil, maybe it was a special place/his home, or maybe Golden blood called the root to Godrick/a place related to Godfrey. Or maybe, as we see in the dlc, just case?

[@overlordmadness1548]

I’m pretty sure that a Death related DLC will be coming in the future for EldenRing

[@freddypyotr3771]

You're pretty spot on imo. after playing the DLC, i now believe that Marika didn't plan Godwyn's death at all. It actually makes no sense for her to do that. All her children, except Godwyn were cursed. Godwyn was perfect and was likely the favorite. Godwyn being taken away and forced to live eternally soulless, a mockery of Marika's vision of the Golder order (absent death), is a cruel twist of fate and karmic retribution which would understandably push her to the brink and shatter the ER. She must've thought that Grandam's curse eluded or missed Godwyn, but nah. A most cruel fate was reserved for him. Ranni could've always planned the Night of the BK outside of Marika's knowledge, I also believe that Radahn was no bueno with Miquella's plan. Radahn was more of a Golder Order kind of guy.

[@PawciopPL]

12:43 i l o v e the ygotas refference

[@SirZipper]

I wonder if there's any lore behind Radagon, and perhaps just like how St.Trina positively influenced Miquella what if Radagon had negatively influenced Marika in some way?

[@themaniae4803]

Probably like St.Trina for Miquella, Radagon was the best part of her.

[@ramoraid]

Looking at the items that relate to golden oder fundamentalist and the golden order, you can come to 2 conclusions. The first is that Radagon usurped Marika as head of the religion and of the order. The second is that the two fingers helped him do so(Marika called him a hound for a reason).

[@themaniae4803]

@@ramoraid He didn't usurped her. Fundamentalism is a piece of the Golden Order about a less fanatical vision, not the core of it, and until the end Marika remains the Queen and the Goddess. Yes, probably Radagon took some Divininy from her because they are the same person, but still he remain just King Consort. The fact she calls him Hound, in japanese Dog in a bad way, it to show their position: She rule, he serve. Fingers literally don't even talk about him, they just say Go to Marika and fix the problem

[@Chessheromusic]

Perfect!!!! I just did a theory video all about godwyn!!!!!' Idk about people trying to get around what Marika physically looked like I'm sorry there is no evidence that she didn't look exactly like a naked pot person The portraits and paintings are from faith and religious belief Not from the horror and fact of how these saints were made

[@DaneMurdock]

I think why many people were disappointed by Radahn being revived instead of Godwyn was mostly based on some subtle misunderstandings. I too really misread a lot of the lore behind Godwyn and Miquella prior to the DLC. Where it seemed that Miquella wanted to revive him with the eclipse, it actually reads more like it was meant to put him to rest and truly die, but like all of Miquella's plans, it failed. Unfortunately, that distinction seems to have got a lot of people's hopes up. The thing I still can't get a full grasp on is if Marika and Godwyn both wanted Godwyn to die with the intent of him being resurrected, but Ranni pulled a fast one and used the opportunity to free herself of her body at the expense of Godwyn. I've seen a lot of theories lately that points to him being a Balder figure. Some saying his death is allegorical to the start of Ragnarok/The Shattering. Others saying he was likely meant to be resurrected as some means of restoring the age of plenty. But because he didn't die in the right way, thanks to Ranni, Marika shatters the ring in grief, almost like an act of suicide. It all gets so murky thanks to typical Fromsoft cryptic writing. Was Marika in on it or not? Was Godwyn in on it or not? there's just a lot of room for a lot of angles to be true. But the one thing that seems pretty clear to me now is that Godwyn was definitely meant to stay dead... or soul dead... or whatever he is now.

[@pupely]

Finally someone noticed Marika's similarity to Warhammer 40k Emperor!

[@Animesguardianangel]

Finally someone who understands why resurrecting the key point character who's death is the inciting incident of the plot is narratively terrible. Thats not to say they couldn't find a way to have a boss Godwyn if they really wanted to. Time travel, Illusionary memory or animated fish monster corpse all would have worked and maintained the Death by hammering home that no you can't change his fate. But bringing him back wholesale undermines the entire story and you've expertly defined every reason why. If you bring back uncle Ben Spiderman loses its meaning, if you bring back Godwyn Elden Ring loses its meaning. Subscribed

[@shun-li8204]

I don't remember the exact name of the trope, but Godwyn (the Golden) is the 1 character in a mystery movie who for whatever reason has virtually 0 screentime but has huge relevance to the plot.

[@LuisSanchez-zy9dw]

Payphone movie with keifer Sutherland and collin ferrel you see the guy on the phone at the end of the movie but he has collin trapped in a payphone a sniper on him good movie

[@VictorIV0310]

When you really think about it, the furnace golems were designed to be Marika and Messmer's "jars" for the Hornsent. Not to mentions the parallels between the Tooth Whip and Serpent Flail item descriptions.

[@littlesneets8026]

good catch.

[@TheAlphaLegionnaire]

As a 40k fan I’m embarrassed I didn’t catch Marika’s possible connection to Big E… Though I haven’t seen anyone posit that Marika may have been a successful experiment to create a Saint. I think we just assumed she escaped the fate of the jar folk.

[@boney-gumbodavis8020]

You've got a good point... Yet the content junkie in me still wouldn't mind a deathbed dream dlc or something.

[@vasylpark2149]

There are some theories that Godwyn is essentially this game's version of the nameless king. That him siding with the cult of dragons is why he was targeted.

[@lordtrinen2249]

I always assumed Ranni targeted Godwyn because he was a living symbol of the Golden Order. She hates the Order because of the destiny it thrust upon her and I suspect also because it forced Radagon to leave Rennala. Ranni still loves her mother and hates the state she's in. A lot of your points line up with mine but one issue still puzzles me. I think it's clear now that Marika is behind the Guidance of Grace we see throughout the game. She's directing us but to what exactly? Reassemble the Elden Ring? Why would she want that if she shattered it in the first place? And why would the Guidance of Grace lead us to Ranni? Does Marika later learn her plans and decide it's the best path forward?

[@DaneMurdock]

Marika being behind the guidance of grace really puzzles me as well. Thanks to the story behind Metyr, it seems like it must be Marika doing it, but I just can't quite grasp why. She's commanded/enslaved Hewg to make a godslaying weapon, and she's guiding us to kill Radagon/Elden Beast/Her. My best guess is still that she shattered the ring out of Grief for Godwyn, and that she basically wants to die due to being in the prison of Godhood. But it also seems like she might have been in on killing Godwyn, which makes that all seem contradictory. I dunno. it is just a little too muddled and frustrating at this point for me.

[@lordtrinen2249]

@@DaneMurdock I've long subscribed to the theory that Marika was involved with the Night of the Black Knives, assisting Ranni in some way, but with what we learn in the DLC, I now find it unlikely that she'd willingly take part in a plot to murder Godwyn, her only perfect child. The only way I can think of to reconcile these things is that maybe Marika thought Ranni's target would be someone else, one of the other demigods or even her. She didn't realize Ranni would go after Godwyn and it broke her heart. But another wrinkle in this is why would the guidance of Grace later lead you to Ranni if Marika is controlling it? Has she forgiven Ranni? Is she hoping we'll kill her? So many contradictory points...

[@trueomen5017]

10:42 I'm afraid I have to disagree. It could've been Miquella's secret and selfish plot, don't forget he is a genius and abnormally powerful. Just imagine how all the details and plot fall in place if you replace Radahn's role with Godwyn. What if it's Godwyn whom Miquella actually wanted? He was strong enough to defeat dragons, kind enough to unite and befriend them and simply was perfect. Godwyn dwarfs everything for which Miquella adored Radahn. And if it was Godwyn whom Miquella wished to revive (instead of Radahn), it would confirm that Ranni's target wasn't a random one, after all only she, Malenia, and Miquella were Empyrians, and since Malenia is fully content serving her little brother instead of pursuing throne herself - that leaves only 2. A rivalry of Ranni and Miquella, and by eliminating Godwyn, Ranni killed two birds with one stone - set her plans in motion, while thwarting Miquella's by eliminating his promised consort for an era he envisioned. And before you tell me that Godwyn can't be resurrected cause his soul is rip - wrong. Fantasy narrative (especially one as omnipotent as Elden Ring's) bends to the whims of the writer, they'd find a way. Perhaps to collect pieces of Godwyn's shattered soul - Miquella has to sacrifice pieces of his own divine flesh - which explains why he traveled all over the place in Shadowlands instead of just dumping all of himself in one place at the same time - he was collecting Godwyn's soul to assemble it all in Mohg's body at the Gates of Divinity.

[@themaniae4803]

Sounds good, especially the part about two birds with one stone, but just let me say a couple of things. 1-Godwyn's soul is not shattered, is gone. Totally gone. Burned by that piece of Destined Death. And yeah, as a Writer i can say the rules of the world kneel under my will, but in this case the will of the writer was Godwyn stay dead. This is the Tragedy, not even Marika with all her power can save his son. (If she could, why remove the Rune in the first place?) 2-Miquella's curse is not just eternal young, is also start and keep failing. Trina? Rejected. Holy Tree? Abandoned. Cure her Sis? Nada. Bring Godwyn back? Failed. Fundamentalism? Not useful. Last one we stopped him.

[@kenjithewizard4980]

I think Radagon seduced the Gloam eyed queen giving birth to Messmer and Melina, The gloam eyed queen was betrayed and the Elden ring was stolen. The gloam eyed Queen has a lot of things pointing to that she was a medusa like person with snake hair. The seduction and the betrayal

[@aR0ttenBANANA]

I’m still mad we also got 0 new Melina lore in the dlc

[@reign1594]

​@@armandaneshjoo really?

[@cledosliop4175]

Me too! Gosh how I wish to see her face in the DLC, yet the answer is still NO. 😂

[@reign1594]

@@armandaneshjoo fish tail would be dope af ngl.

[@wallybonejengles5595]

Every single thing Marika did to this point was made valid in her eyes by Godwyn. All the pain, sufferation, all the fire and blood. The loss of her people and all she did to her enemies. All of it was going to be FOR something. Godwyn was going to make things right. He was the end that justified the means. Then he caught a stray black knife... I can understand why she would snap. Not to say any of this makes her correct or justifies bringing him back. To me it doesn't. But I can sympathize with her as a parent for sure.

[@wallybonejengles5595]

Ranni doesn't trust the Greater Will. Or its Golden boy. For her plans to go on, he had to die to disrupt everything and create the power vacuum she and her consort would fill. He would have been the Fingers perfect puppet.

[@NoNav379]

I think ranni needed a soul and a whole one not one cursed or spiritually channeling a god. If godwyn was perfect he'd have been the only real option. Based on my assumption eanni is a perfect unaffected child

[@adamkorzon2972]

Keep in mind Godfrey was Numen,everyone forgets he was no mere human.

[@TheTarnishedSandwich]

Source?

[@DustDemonTwilight]

how do we know that the godskins targeted marika's people? im honestly curious as i didn't think anything specifies who they killed

[@Chessheromusic]

Perfect!!!! I just did a theory video all about godwyn!!!!!' Idk about people trying to get around what Marika physically looked like I'm sorry there is no evidence that she didn't look exactly like a naked pot person The portraits and paintings are from faith and religious belief Not from the horror and fact of how these saints were made But I completely agree that godwyns death was the inciting event That caused her to shatter In more then a symbolic way It meant shattering herself Godwyn morgott and mohg were sons of Godfrey but since the dark ritual of saint hood There was more then Marika in that pot There was some hornsent and some giant These are seen as curses as the other beings coming out in her children Godwyns didn't seem as affected by this curse So he was the apple of her eye. Hmm maybe we can do a podcast and discussion But first you gotta check out my vid sir Ty

[@ramoraid]

I hope people stop entertaining the jar saint theory it's truly awful because of how it flattens Marika as an individual. It basically makes her motivations very fake as those of the amnesia strucked Main character of a gacha game. Instead we should look into her Shaman origins and what that truly means and how growing as an equivalent of a priestess affected her. Also as a priestess/shaman the other thing that likely made her special was an ability to speak to spirits, (her minor erdtree incantation is a huge hint, no order = no outer God giving her that power). The hornsent revered spirits and Marika being able to communicate with them likely allowed her to not only escape most the prosecution the other shaman face but also allowed her access to the knowledge about the divine gate. It's clear by the night of knives not every surviving Numen liked her and can explain the betrayel by the black knives assassin's.

[@theroguerider]

BIG ISSUE: It’s called the Shaman VILLAGE and there are only FOUR structures and only TWO of them have doors. Again, I ask, “THIS TOOK OVER TWO YEARS?!”

[@littlesneets8026]

bare in mind, the Hornsent committed a genocide on the Shaman people. When they raided the villages, took the people, tortured them, and put them in jars for some silly superstitious belief, we can assume that what we see of the Shaman Village is what remains of what used to be. We can see burned buildings and ruins elsewhere in the game, it's safe to assume the Hornsent did the same too.

[@paulcashion8049]

I believe marikas actions is what triggered the shaman genocide. She was a part of horsent society. She was a high up. She betrayed the hornsent and left for the lands between. They were pretty bitter about what she did and that's what got her people genocided. She loved her people but she kinda left them on their own and when she came back it was too late. Marika is not a good guy. She's sympathetic sometimes but she's the most selfish and narcissistic character in the game. She made herself a god. She put her children in the sewer. She genocided the fire giants. She would have killed the carians if they weren't strong enough to resist her. She's the cause of basically every problem in the lands between. She's awful. She's not tragic. She took the godhood unsolicited. She chose. Then she abandoned her people to go start her order. I dont see how she could be at the divine gate freely without being high up in hornsent society. If the genocide was prior to her leaving she'd have got it too. She's the cause of every character in the games problems.

[@VictorIV0310]

Kindly corroborate.

[@ramoraid]

Finally someone that doesn't just says she was a successful jar saint. Yeah I agree she likely climbed her way to a high position and she likely did through the fact she is priestess capable of communicating with spirits. The hornsent worship spirit and as we know from popular media shamans can a do talk to nature spirits as do the shrine maidens. I also believe that the church of the bud was the institution she used. It stood out to me that Romina and the granddam were left alive and unharmed be they to were priestess like Marika. Then when you look inside of the church you find a spiral column with a bud on top, a nice symbol of how the spiral religion and church of the bud work together and a partnership(male and female respectively).

[@jaieregilmore971]

Marika could never escape curses and death her order and family pretty much curse and death always find away honestly if the world of Elden ring has karma than she is the biggest loser. To be honest I think Godwyn would be something worst than Marika no doubt he the bauldr of Elden ring in the game characters aren’t just morally good just look at Miquella.

[@KarmicBreathing]

I am NOT a freaky fish guy

[@LeggoMyGekko]

I love how people use Godwyn being this narrative plot device for Marika’s sorrow as justification for why he couldn’t or shouldn’t have been revived, as if the DLC’s entire plot doesn’t literally revolve around Miquella trying to fix everything Marika couldn’t fix 💀 it makes perfect narrative sense for his crowning achievement to be repairing the one thing his mother couldn’t, and for it to have still been for naught thanks to the nature of cycles and conquest. It wouldn’t have taken away from Marika or the base game’s story, it would be a natural progression of it. If you want to talk about taking away from someone’s story, let’s talk about Promised Consort Retcon and how his presence in the game takes away from Miquella’s, Godwyn’s, and Starscourge Radahn’s stories. So much base game set up, ignored and contradicted, just for fan service…

[@jjjkkkjjjkkk-tw5su]

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