The Nation-State of Israel & the Church - Paul Lamicela - Ep. 212

[@paulamicela]

Here are a few resources that I'd recommend for further reading: -- Gentry and Wellum, God's Kingdom through God's Covenants - These professors were hugely influential for me, and I require this book for my Intro to the Biblical Storyline course. -- See the chapters in Progressive Covenantalism (eds Wellum and Parker) on "The Israel-Christ-Church Relationship" (by Parker) and on the land promise (by Martin). -- Martin, Bound for the Promised Land - This book works through the theme of the "promised land" in the storyline of the Bible, from Eden to Canaan to new creation. -- See also Greg Beale's work on some of the NT biblical theological questions, e.g. his Handbook on the NT Use of the OT. If you're interested in thinking through the biblical covenants, promise/fulfillment, and the biblical storyline further, I welcome you to check into my annual 2-week intensives: biblicalstoryline.org.

[@Benjamin-jo4rf]

Paul have you ever read any of Israeli historian Dr Ilan Pappé? Are you aware that hundreds of aid workers and Christians have been murdered in Palestine in recent months? There is a aid flotilla headed to Gaza right now full of peaceful people but no Anabaptists. Why is this? Why no mention of the starving people in Palestine but you mentioned numerous times how wonderful the secular apartheid nation state of Israel is?

[@KingdomCome-fb3bh]

Thanks for having the courage to discuss this, and to do so with grace. So much of this resonated with me. I came to about exactly the same place through Bible study and actually reading the church fathers (not just cherry-picked quotes). What used to be attaching the headlines to out-of-context prophecies, has been replaced with reading the OT as interpreted by the NT... By finding Christ in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. The Old Testament came alive for me and my love for Scripture has grown tremendously. Understood in the way this Israel of God is presented by the NT, we CAN generally understand the OT promises to be for us as well, because we are Abraham’s children through faith and joint heirs of Christ Himself! At the core, the problem of dispensationalism is that it tends to turn our eyes away from Jesus and from His kingdom to instead emphasize racial boundaries and political minutia. The central paradigm of the early Christians was Christ Himself. He is the lens through which every covenant and promise must be read. He is the promised seed of David, the 'single seed' of Abraham (Gal. 3:16). I applaud the presenter for communicating with grace, and for his clarity. It is a huge and sensitive topic, and he did well. I especially appreciate his comments condemning the sin of antisemitism, which has been a scourge in the Church. It is so important to clarify this, that the theological position is not one of exclusion or contempt, but of inclusion and hope--everyone from all backgrounds is called into the family of God under our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I do wish that Paul had forcefully clarified that the church is indeed where this true Israel is found today, but I realize he is trying to avoid the 'replacement' concept... Nonetheless, it should not be difficult to say that we find the Israel of God today in the church of Jesus Christ, not in a small contested area of the middle east. I am still left wondering why non-resistant Anabaptists have such a strong devotion towards the modern state of Israel (thankful that he clarified the distinction between the state and 'Israel after the flesh'/ethnic Israel). Most disturbing is defending any and all IDF action on theological or racial grounds. For Anabaptists, a group of people who claim the kingship of Jesus, and claim to be apolitical, it makes zero sense to support any government other than Christ's. And can we not look past boundaries of race and recognize the suffering, the tragedy of all involved in this horrible war-Jew and Arab alike? I get the sense that our compassion is reserved for the innocents on the "right side". The influence of dispensationalism and political conservatives have blinded Anabaptist from half of the story. And it's a very complicated one. I pray that this episode will get our people rethinking the comforting but incomplete narratives adopted from politically (and theologically) motivated newscasters.

[@1nchr15t7]

Takes a superb theologian to seriously complicate such a simple true understanding of things.

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

What is the simple and true understanding?

[@unitariananabaptist]

I can truly say Amen to what was spoken. I cannot remember hearing a clearer more powerful teaching in Anabaptist circles. God bless you both for this bold proclamation.

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Thank you for the feedback!

[@1nchr15t7]

Excellent!

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

We were also glad to have Paul join us for this conversation.

[@1nchr15t7]

We are grafted into the Israel of God, by the True Vine and we are the branches.

[@1nchr15t7]

Amen, been wanting to understand how as Christians we should be reacting to our world today.

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

We're glad that it was helpful.

[@ReligionOfSacrifice]

THE SUMMATION OF THE MATTER Habakkuk 1:9-13 "All come, Hamas, assemble the horde of the east, gather the captives like sand (October 7th, 2023). Mock the ruler (Benjamin Netanyahu), and their judgment (in Gaza Strip) a joke, laugh as all strongholds become rubble, seize them, then pass through like the wind, pass through guilty by the strength of your god (Israel wiped off the map on the second attack). From of old Yahweh, He is the god Holy, who died? Yahweh, the appointed judge, and the Rock will establish the judgment (Genesis 49:10). The one who was overcome is pure. He sees the evil's power. Look at the evil. What do you see? Do you favor the ones who do wickedly? Are you silent when the wicked swallow those more righteous than them?" This might be a jab at the liberal for cheering for Hamas and screaming “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” along with “death to America!” and “Death to Israel” as the lesson of the holocaust against Jews in WWII is being quoted here by Yahweh to their faces, as a warning to the wicked. So what happens when Palestine is whole and Israel is wiped off the map is that Muslims rush to be there, and a part of it, per the command of the Quran and one will gain the mantel of Allah. Habakkuk 3:11-13 "From the east the crescent stood at the heights, walking in the light of the weapons, the radiance of Barack (Husein Obama) from the thrust. There is indignation at his march on the Earth; in anger he trampled the nations. He went forth for the salvation of his people; for the salvation he's anointed. Now strike the head of the house of the wicked; lay him open from thigh to neck, commune with the Lifted High." Barack Hussein Obama was firm with the Muslims during his two terms with WikiLeaks and an Arab Apology tour for the WikiLeaks reveal that American ambassadors were racist in their e-mails about Arab people (true - who knows and who cares) and Barack Hussein Obama finished the Arab Apology tour kissing the ring of the Saudi prince over the Ka’aba in Mecca, which only Muslims do to show they are subservient to Allah. Why did Jesus say in Luke 10:18 “I saw Satan as Barack Obama.” "Allah Obama ab dama elyown." - Isaiah 14:14 "They that see thee shall squint, saying, "this the man who shakes the whole world? He shook merely the region of the first." - Isaiah 14:16 They that see BHO and wonder are probably Xi and Putin. They watch stupid Muslims kick the dead bodies of Jews in Palestine, piss on the dead bodies of Jews in Palestine, and the bull horn rings five times a day for Muslims to prostrate into their own urine among rotting carcasses. Could it be that the power of Christ Jesus is to be revealed in Revelation 11:7-15 raising 12 million Jews and Christians to new life? Anyone remaining must be under Barack Hussein Obama? "Yahweh is the head of a force of armies, who can plan to frustrate? If His hand is stretched out who can turn it back?" - Isaiah 14:27 "For the year is the year of the brought down king, Ahaz ("ahaz" means "he has grasp the ten"). He is dead is the oracle to come." - Isaiah 14:28 "Rejoice not Palestine though now thee be whole, for the rod who struck has been broken. The serpent is at the root with a venom. It shall go forth as a fruit, a flying forth from the serpent." - Isaiah 14:29 "Those most hopeless shall lie down in bonds, and shall die at the root in need, for their remnant will be slain." - Isaiah 14:30 "Wail at the judgment, cry out city as you melt, O Palestine now whole. For smoke from the North, and none shall break rank." - Isaiah 14:31 Okay, so clearly the power of Christ Jesus was real. Xi and Putin must have made Palestine whole melt. So if Barack Hussein Obama was the Anti-Christ why couldn’t he perform all this himself? Israel would kick his ass as no weapon formed against Israel can prosper. So he was firm for a week, cut off during Trump’s time, and in the midst of a week following is when desolation spreads over the whole world. Revelation 12:12b-14 “The false one has come to fall, possessing great wrath, seeing his hold is a short time, for the dragon perceiving a casting out of the Earth shall pursue a woman who gives birth to a male with two wings, it is a great Eagle loving the woman, an order of things, to fly in a wilderness, her place where there is nourishment, time, time, the cutting off time, in the presence of the serpent.” The Holy Bible has to be true, so the woman (Jews or Israel) had to be safe in both of his times and during the cut off time, but no such promise under the image of his time. So what is about to happen? END OF PART ONE

[@ReligionOfSacrifice]

@@AnabaptistPerspectives So what is about to happen? PART TWO. Job 26:13-14 “by his breath the heavens are cleared, his hand shall pierce BARACK, a serpent. Behold ALLAH the end of his ways. How? A whisper, a word, hear the strength and the thunder. Who can discern?” Quran 13:11b-14a “Never doeth Allah change the condition of a people, excepting they change themselves, and Allah intendeth evil for all people, and there is no stopping him. Neither doeth he accept an equal. Barack is he who showeth you the face of Allah, giving a fear and a hope, though heavy the clouds and the thunder, exalt and prostrate to him, for even angels fear him, for he sendeth forth thunderbolts, striking whom he wills, while they dispute before the face of Allah, and he is severe in his attack. To him alone are the prayers in truth." Angels fear the coming of Barack Hussein Obama even more than Jesus, for it means they can’t even beg for pig flesh, like they did before Jesus, because there won’t be any flesh on this planet to inhabit. Ezekiel 21:13-15 “Test your (umah) community. Truly, also the scepter which despises shall be no more, declares the Lord Yahweh. Son of man prophecy and clap your hands together, the sword twice, and now the third time, the sword pierces, the sword for the great one as it pierces those who indwelt and surrounded them. The inner being (demons) weaken greatly, they were brought down to cause stumbling, All of them are at the gate (of hell). Give them to slaughter by the sword. Alas, they had made Barack (Hussein Obama) and caught themselves up for the slaughter.” Focus on swords coming out for Jerusalem and never returning to the sheath, so if the wicked want to know what to fear like a demon, I’d suggest the West Bank going for Jerusalem the second time Hamas comes out of Gaza Strip, per Habakkuk up above. Three swords: first time for Jews, second time for Muslims, third time for demons as second bodies can’t exist in hell per Matthew 10:28 so the demons will begin their eternal torment. What did demons begin that gets them caught up for slaughter? Quran “Sa’ad” ayah 1-3 “Sa’ad (in our defense) cometh the Quran full of admonition unto disbelievers, glorified within (Christians with a Holy Spirit in their breast) and separate (Jews, a peculiar people set apart for the purpose of bringing forth Messiah or Jesus). How many generations of them did we slay, as they cried out for Mercy? But it was not the time of their Salvation.” You see the fallen angel can be in an abyss awaiting the coming judgment, or they can inhabit flesh on planet Earth. They can slaughter humans without fear of Salvation, except in the two times of Jesus for the cross to offer escape to humans or resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the elect on the second coming. Daniel 8:25 "and through his cunning treachery shall advance, the hand shall magnify the heart, ruining many, the quiet oppose the prince of princes, for he is broken without hand." You see the second beast of Islam by their bare hands must kill off the Jews like described in Habakkuk, as their weapons from afar will not prosper. The Anti-Christ can be killed from afar by communism. Xi and Putin can eliminate him without hand, for their weapons will prosper against Barack Hussein Obama and his stupid reformed Ottoman Empire that lasts for one literal hour. Palestine whole lasts longer than the restored beast healed of a deadly wound. Palestine whole will last 4 days. What seven year peace treaty, when Barack Hussein Obama had two times? Didn’t three kings get ruined in the space of a month in Egypt, Libya, and Tunesia (in 29 days) during the Arab Spring? Daniel 9:27 "He shall be firm in a covenant with many for one week, yet in the midst of a week shall he stop to make sacrifice in the wing. Abomination! The one who spreads desolation spreads desolation even until complete consummation, for the decree that shall be, is a flowing forth." BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA (the firm week) of 8 years with the First time as 2009-2012 and the Second time 2013-2016. DONALD TRUMP’s time is the Cut-Off time 2017-2020. And… JOE BIDEN’s time the offering of all human flesh, look for it, in the midst of the week coming in 8 months, for then cometh Annihilation, the perishing of the end. Daniel 7:25 “He will speak against Allah, to wear out the saints of the Highest One, intending to change time to a decree (stop all time - decrees are final), and give his hand a time, and a time, and a cutting off time.” Daniel 7:26 “But the judgment shall be final and his dominion shall pass away, then annihilation, the perishing of the end.” "THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, IN WHICH HEAVENS (air, you might need that) PASSES AWAY IN FERVENT HEAT, WITH A ROAR, AND THE ELEMENTS ARE DESTROYED IN INTENSE HEAT, THE EARTH AND ITS WORKS BURNED UP." - 2 Peter 3:10

[@ChesterWeaver]

Thanks once again for the big picture view. Perfect creation, Fall, Redemption, and Final Consummation when everything is restored and handed back to the Creator from Whom it all was birthed! And we have been invited to live into this Restoration, to participate in the Redemption story! What greater privilege exists? Why waste our time on our own empires?

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Thank you for the comment, Chester.

[@father.of.7bear963]

Chester, how would you respond to a Mennonite who has a “gospel” sign along a rural highway that says “the earth will be burned up 2 Peter 3:10. Most of my brethren in the plain suit Mennonite church believe the earth will be burned into total obliteration (the abolition view) Thanks in advance.

[@pj595]

Steve Gregg has excellent teaching on Israel and the church if you want to go into this in even more detail.

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Thank you for the recommendation.

[@cwilkerson3710]

Steve Gregg is one of the most thorough and responsible Bible teachers around today.

[@BramptonAnglican]

I’m so glad I’ve come across your channel. Thanks for the great video.

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Thank you! It was a delight to have Paul join us for this conversation.

[@martinlayman393]

The popular explanation for dispensationalism is that was created in the 1800s by John Darby. But there are aspects considered to be part of dispensationalism that were taught by the early church fathers. A literal 1000 year reign was taught by Papius, Justin Martyr, Barnabas, Commodianus, Hippolytus, Lactantius, and Victorinus. A 7-year period of tribulation and a literal anti-Christ were taught by Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, and Ephrem the Syrian. The return of the Jews to their homeland and a rebuilt temple was taught by Hippolytus. Even a pre-tribulation rapture was taught by Ephrem the Syrian. This does not prove that this is the accurate interpretation of Scripture, but it does prove that these subjects were taught long before John Darby. John Darby was instrumental in the development of these strands of thought into a eschatological system. I don't have anything written at this point, but I could help people locate the source of these early church fathers articles. Several books on this subject are: The End-Times by the Ancient Church Fathers by Ken Johnson Dispensationalism Before Darby, by William Watson Discovering Dispensationalism, by Cory Marsh and James Fazio

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Thank you for these recommendations, Martin. It would indeed be a mistake to offer an excessively simple explanation for a complex issue.

[@KingdomCome-fb3bh]

It is true that some early church fathers expected a literal fulfillment of Christ’s kingdom on earth, but their paradigm was not a dispensationalist one. Those that did believe in an earthly kingdom expected a literal reign of Christ with the Church, which they all regarded as the new Israel. It is an important distinction-the early Christians (which included both biological Jews and gentiles) understood themselves to be the newly reconstituted people of God and as such, the joint-heirs with Christ to all the promises to Israel. The theological underpinnings of early Christian eschatology were radically different than those of dispensationalism. They believed that they were the true Israel of God, that Christ had broken down all the barriers of race in his family of faith…made them irrelevant. And made them one chosen people, one holy nation, one holy people for his possession. I spent several years reading and studying the fathers. It was through them that I was finally able to see the glory of the kingdom of God and this incredible arc of God’s redemption of the whole world in the Messiah.

[@A.S2400]

Wow you blew my mind ! So, the tree in Roman's 11 is Israel. It includes Jews who accept Jesus as king, and gentiles who also accept Jesus as king. Anyone else, of any ancestry who doesn't accept Jesus is king is trimmed off. Gentiles grafted in. Not a replacement. Just a trimming and grafting of the original Israel. Is that right ?! I'll be studying Roman's 11. Can you make a video on navigating this political left vs right climate how to be kingdom minded and not off this world ?

[@1nchr15t7]

Is it common practice for Anabaptist to have the Eucharist every Sunday?

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

No. It is not common.

[@TimGingrich-pl8fs]

A lot of great material - very helpful. I just took the time to re-listen and jot down some comments. My strongest point of disagreement has to do with what was said about looking favorably toward the nation of Israel today. I am afraid that for many Christians there is a distinct lack of appreciation for the suffering of the Palestinian people and the ethical quagmire that really makes the term Christian Zionism an oxymoron. Is the church failing the Palestinians today just as it failed the Jews in Europe in the past centuries? Have actions taken to try to address one major failing only led us into another? There are no simple political answers to today’s turmoil in the Middle East but may we as Christians never be found guilty of promoting one people group above another.

[@TerryChambers7]

You seem to need to read scripture. You sound like a Harvard student.

[@Neil_85]

I am quite puzzled over Paul's statement that ethnic Jews are still under Gods providence. That, to me, seems to undermine everything he just got done saying. What am I missing?

[@jameskleinsasser7064]

I agree with you. Those statements are nonsensical in light of everything else he said. Why is it providential that Israel exists? Why is Israel under God's providence? Understanding Daniels 70 weeks might provide some answers. There is a final week determined for Daniel's people. A final discipline on the Jewish nation but after that a final and glorious restoration!

[@SpotterVideo]

The following proves you are correct. New Covenant Whole Gospel: How many modern Christians cannot honestly answer the first three questions below? Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary? What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8, 3:16? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the KZbin videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay. Watch the KZbin video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to see the original source of the doctrine in black and white.

[@petemiller258]

10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, [and] to Israel [for] an everlasting covenant: 11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: (Psalm 105:10-11, KJV)

[@TerryChambers7]

Physical Israel has not yet submitted to their King, but spiritual Israel has submitted…? (church/ecclesia)

[@russelljones2305]

I have done studies in the origins of eschatology in Early Church history and have concluded that modern eschatological views taught today are predominantly evolved out of Augustinian beliefs. The Pretrib Dispansational view evolved out of Calvinism and the replacement theology that was inherited through Augustine in 400AD. In the Ante-Nicene Father’s writings in the first 300 years, they would be considered to be Historic Millennialist, they would recognise the Old Testament prophecies of a Messiah who will rule from Israel in the Millennium kingdom, Daniel 7:11 to 14; Zechariah 14 and many other Scriptural text that speak of the same event. In Revelation 10:7 ESV [7] but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. It is understood that the New Covenant was made with Israel (Hebrews 8 which is reference to Jeremiah 31:31. A New Covenant is made we’re Gentiles are grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel, when Christ returns he will take up his rightful reign on David’s throne as announced by the angels at his birth. Both Replacement and Dispensational views were not taught in the early years of the Church, all that is happening to the nation of Israel has been foretold by the prophets and will bring to a close of this age.

[@martinlayman393]

Russell, could you explain to me how Pretrib Dispensationalism has evolved out of Calvinism? I understand how Covenantalism has developed out of Reformed thought, but I'm not seeing the connection with Dispensationalism.

[@russelljones2305]

@@martinlayman393 I have read the biographies of Edward Irving a defrocked Church of Scotland minister and of John Darby who was a minister of the Church of Ireland. Both having strong Calvinistic beliefs and because of the influence of spiritualist cult groups springing up all over Europe and England, this would greatly influence them to evolve their ideas. Many Protestants at that time who were mainly Calvinistic in view, were receptive to Freemasons and Rosicrucian practices, this was also seen in the Early Church and their dealings with the Sadducees and Gnostics. The battles that the Apostle John and his disciples had with these Gnostics, we would see their beliefs being endorsed by the Alexandrian and later Augustine with his previous beliefs in Manichaean Gnostic beliefs, this would later become Church doctrine. There is much more to those who evolved out of Calvinism, who over the years would add and subtract from the main tenets of Calvinism, we would see many splits in their main beliefs and would have a strong self interpretation of Scripture. It is to be noted that the main eschatology’s taught at the time of the Reformation was A-mill and Historicist view that came out in 1100AD, both Edward Irving and John Darby were Historicist, they both realised that this view was flawed badly and that new information was being revealed or a new interpretation method is being used. There is documentation from these men and others who where dealing with their new ideas, that show this was an invention of their own and has no legitimate teachings from the first 300 years of the Church, even Charles Spurgeon had some things to say about this new idea. The building blocks of the Pretrib belief is reliant of Calvinism, which is the teaching of Augustine. Both Amill, Historicist, PostMillennialism and Pretrib are Augustinian based, not one of them have an interpretation of Early Apostolic Orthodoxy and a clear eschatological view of Historical Millennialism.

[@heman7767]

So Paul doesn't realize that there's many believers out there that actually believe what he is revealing but also at the same time sees the things happening in prophecy certain events happening that are being fulfilled also. It's not exclusive from one or the other. However, there are a lot of wacko ideas all over the board when it comes to eschatology that are way off from scripture. Also, I am 65 years old and have walked by his spirit for 45. Student of the scripture in study many years and have never seen scriptural prophecies surrounding Israel being fulfilled in the last 10 years as I have in the previous 20 years. Another words the very beginning of the end is near and the very start of the millennium is there. Billions of people we'll have to be living in the close of one age to the beginning of the next at some point. Amen hallelujah.

[@calebpearce9334]

Paul’s work is fascinating to listen to. I fear the incursion of street-level dispensationalism in conservative Anabaptist circles. Does Paul have any resources to point us to warn fellow Anabaptists against it? Maybe he should write a book on the subject.

[@pj595]

Yes, coming to the Anabaptists from outside, it is very distressing seeing that so many Anabaptist people are starting to buy into dispensationalism,...

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

See the pinned comment for a list of resources that Paul recommends.

[@jameskleinsasser7064]

It's unfortunate that I'm called a dispensationalist because I hold to a literal view of prophecy. It's unfortunate that I'm called a dispensationalist because I believe in a yet futuristic fulfilment of prophecy. Its unfortunate that I'm labeled a dispensationalist because I believe in a literal Messianic reign of Christ on earth, or that I believe that Israel has a prophetic future. Don't get me wrong, there are elements within dispensationalism that should be rejected but you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. "Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" Lk 21:24. "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." Rom 11:25. This sounds like a dispensation to me.

[@petemiller258]

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (Psalm 89:34-37, KJV)

[@cwilkerson3710]

yes, and Paul defines "His seed" Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[@blakewidmer]

Most of this was really good. I think Paul Lamicela would benefit if he read Gary Burge “the land” and Jason Staples “resurrection and all israel” - He is very much right for all of it but then at the end he says that the political nation state of modern Israel (which he already said is not biblical) is still created by the sovereign hand of God. I was shocked that he reached this conclusion despite his understanding of all the origin of dispensationalism. If Israel (the political, colonizing nation state founded by ATHEIST Jewish zionists) was founded by the sovereign hand of God, does he know that this means God sanctioned the Nakba of 1948 and the ethnic cleansing of MANY christian villages? Read Jewish Israeli historian Ilan Pappe or listen to Jewish theologians. Sorry but we cannot take the conquest of the promised land by Joshua (running out rebellious lines of canaanites) and say this is ok for European Jews to do 3,000 years later.

[@jameskleinsasser7064]

I would recommended having someone like Paul Shirk from Pleasant Hill Brethren on your podcast with the same topic in mind. He has two incredible messages on KZbin titled "Ethnic Israel" and "Spiritual Israel" that all your listeners including Mr. Lamicela should listen to.

[@brandonstahl15]

I would recommend the book of Galatians written by Apostle Paul. consistency reads what the New Covenant revelation has to say about the Seed of Abraham. Galatians 3:16 KJV Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:29 KJV And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[@jameskleinsasser7064]

Brendon I believe we have crossed paths before. Maybe we could get together 🙂

[@arttyree4504]

"incredible messages"? Does that not mean that I cannot believe them? "in" = not + "credible"= worthy of being believed. . .

[@jameskleinsasser7064]

@@arttyree4504 incredible as in good. They are good messages.

[@SimonPertus]

I am inclined to believe, and I think it is also your opinion, that there is an earthly, carnal Israel, made up of Israelites according to the flesh, as well as a spiritual Israel, the people of God, made up of believing Israelites and Gentiles. The apostles and the Lord himself point to this several times. But since Mr Lamicela does not equate the spiritual Israel, which consists of all believers of all times, with the church, I would be interested to know what the church is for him. After all, the apostles tell us that the church actually exists. Is it the part of Israel that is made up of the believers since Jesus' first coming, the part of Israel that also includes the Gentiles? So that the true, spiritual Israel consists of the Old Testament believers on the one hand and the New Testament believers, the church, on the other? Or something completely different?

[@dansw0rkshop]

"Israelites according to the flesh" But are there any? It's true that there is Jewish DNA *detectable*, but are any of them pure enough to be considered a Jew the way Paul did, traceable to a tribe like Benjamin, etc? That's my suspicions behind the term "ethnic Jews", because there aren't really pure-blooded Jews in existence anymore. Already in Nehemiah's day, there were a number of priests that could not clearly prove their lineage, and were excluded from serving. Is there a Levite pure enough today, at all, 2300 years later? I could be wrong, but I suspect not.

[@reylambarte5615]

It seems they never addressed Jesus as God only as messiah and king. Am i right? If its the case then this people are addressing a different jesus.

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Not sure what you're referring to. Jesus is God the Son, second person of the Trinity.

[@reylambarte5615]

@@AnabaptistPerspectives yes you believe that Jesus is the son of God, but my question now is His deity compared to the Father. Is Jesus has a lower deity compared to His Father or equal? My next question is, who is the God who manifisted in the old testament whose name is YHWH? Your answers to this question will clarify to me if the jesus that you are teaching is the Jesus of the bible.

[@SpotterVideo]

Go to Gaza City and spend some time with Christian Brothers and Sisters in Christ, if you want to understand what it means to be threatened. Why were two unarmed Christian women shot by Israeli snipers while going to the toilet at their church in Gaza? Why were Christians killed while they were taking shelter at their 800-year-old church in Gaza City, when an IDF bomb hit beside their church? How many of their homes have been turned to rubble? How would you feel if armed drones were constantly flying overhead, while you are without food? Why was Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu-Akieh shot by the IDF before October 7th? These people were not killed by Hamas. Why have these people been ignored by most Christians in the U.S.? Are the Christians being killed in Gaza “Semites”? Read Matthew 25:31-46. New Covenant Whole Gospel: How many Christians cannot honestly answer the first three questions below? Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Watch the KZbin videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.

[@charleshodge9327]

Is Paul Jewish?

[@martinlayman393]

Which Paul is the question referring to?

[@AnabaptistPerspectives]

Martin. You have rightly pointed out that our (now deleted) answer likely misunderstood Charles' question. The apostle Paul was Jewish. Paul in this video probably isn't, but you'd have to ask him to be sure.

[@A.S2400]

Wow you blew my mind ! So, the tree in Roman's 11 is Israel. It includes Jews who accept Jesus as king, and gentiles who also accept Jesus as king. Anyone else, of any ancestry who doesn't accept Jesus is king is trimmed off. Gentiles grafted in. Not a replacement. Just a trimming and grafting of the original Israel. Is that right ?! I'll be studying Roman's 11. Can you make a video on navigating this political left vs right climate how to be kingdom minded and not off this world ?