The Nodes in Astrology: Early History and Meanings

In episode 290 astrologer Ronnie Gale Dreyer joins the show to talk about the early history and meanings of the nodes in astrology, both in the western and Indian astrological traditions.
As discussed in episode 127, in the late 20th and early 21st century the nodes came to be associated with one’s past and future life in modern western astrology, but these associations are absent from the tradition if you look back more than a century or so.
The premise of this discussion, then, is what did the nodes mean in the older traditions of astrology if they didn’t have to do with past lives?
Ronnie is the author of the book Vedic Astrology: A Guide to the Fundamentals of Jyotish, and she is also a Sanskrit scholar who is currently working on a translation of a 4th century Indian text on applying astrology to the lives of women.
Together we set out to explore and discuss the early history of the nodes in eastern and western astrology.
You can find out more information about Ronnie on her website:
www.ronniedreyer.com
The painting featured in the cover art for this episode is by astrologer Shu Yap, and depicts the Samudra Manthan story, which we mention at one point in this episode as being connected to Hindu legends surrounding the origins of the nodes. You can follow Shu on Instagram:
/ interpsycle_astrology
Please be sure to like and subscribe!
#TheAstrologyPodcast
Timestamps
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:00 Ronnie's book and background
00:14:45 History of women in astrology
00:20:39 The nodes and past lives
00:30:54 Interaction between Eastern and Western astrology
00:36:39 Mythology of Rahu and Ketu
00:39:19 Ancient mentions of the nodes
00:48:58 Parashara and nodes
00:57:30 Nodes, malefics, and outcasts
00:59:00 Nodes, the ecliptic, eclipses
01:01:30 Valens on the nodes
01:05:40 Rahu like Saturn, Ketu like Mars
01:07:40 Delineations from Phaladeepika
01:10:00 Houses 3, 6, 10, 11 and Rahu
01:14:18 Houses 4, 5 and Rahu
01:16:00 Rahu and Ketu as malefics
01:20:59 Houses 7, 10, 9, 11 and Rahu
01:24:40 House 12 and Rahu
01:25:00:Houses 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 and Ketu
01:29:56 Houses 9, 10, 11, 12 and Ketu
01:32:44 Dragon and the nodes
01:34:49 Exaltations of the nodes
01:37:44 Opinion According to the Chaldeans
01:43:30 Turning point of nodes in history
01:47:25 Persian tradition
01:48:35 More about the dragon
01:51:30 Guido Bonnati on the nodes
01:58:58 More on the Vedic nodes
02:02:25 Rudhyar and evolutionary astrology
02:11:38 Three traditions of the nodes
02:16:21 Outer planets and the nodes
02:19:47 How Chris uses the nodes
02:22:38 Nodes and eclipses
02:27:54 Ronnie's work and website
02:28:44 Closing remarks

[@Chirokelley]

The large majority of human history has not been written but passed down through oral tradition. That does not make oral tradition less valid than written history. To say “if it’s not in the written history then it was invented by the first person who wrote it” is to make a huge leap. That is an assumption. It’s nice to be able to trace history in written form, but this conversation reminds us that we don’t know, what we don’t know.

[@stephenbarrett5357]

thank you! its been sincerely bothering me that he cant seem to grasp what you just spelled out! chris is trying to "preserve" indian tradition here, but ends up mansplaining indian tradition to an indian scholar. its a bad look, and illustrates a lot of hubris.

[@doradestroy]

RIGHT!?

[@suzannelandry9785]

Chris is such a nerd. It's hilarious how much he thinks astrology needs to be documented, and that ONLY The texts should be adhered to as a definitive proof. I was howling with laughter at this watching his face contort in an attempt to comprehend the idea that oral history exists. The fact of the matter is that EVERY IDEA in astrology existed long before someone in history documented it. The fact that he even understands that the Theosophists took great inspiration from India as a main source of their philosophy, but can't accept that they got the Nodal-reincarnation idea from India is unbelievably amazing and top notch entertainment

[@bezantler23]

20:39 talk begins

[@snoosis9885]

Thank you.

[@raintuition315]

How is this free???!! Your all essential workers on the Astrology podcast!

[@freakybaby1012]

ESSENTIAL

[@SusanHopkinson]

Become a patron! 😉

[@lauraparker-bey9926]

Be a patron = monthly fee

[@spaceforthesoul6286]

Future is free

[@kylieshields1599]

Thank God for youtube ads, right? Getting these content creators paid ♡♡♡

[@empress_craft]

I love how Ronnie reaches across the aisle of Eastern and Western astrology and is so effusive towards Demetra George, and points out the similarities between Hellenistic astrology and Vedic astrology! I hope this acts as an example for other astrologers, as the war between these two schools of astrology are silly, when they have so much to share! Thank you Ronnie for sharing your story, and thank you Chris for hosting yet another great guest!

[@empress_craft]

@@jfreeman3978 Sounds like you have a personal bias against Chris... maybe bring it up to him privately instead of trying to put him on blast on his own KZbin channel after he has a guest from a different system of astrology than his own, which he does regularly.

[@lakshminair2374]

@@empress_craft I generally really appreciate Chris’s thoroughness and am currently doing his course, but I do have to say, that as an Indian, I do question some of his assertions regarding Indian astrology and the direction in which astrological knowledge traveled. Some of his assumptions are based in not knowing about Indian culture. For example, he assumes that certain words in Sanskrit jyotish texts are just cognates from the Greek, like Kendra and Trikona, proving that all of these concepts were introduced into Indian astrology from Greek astrology. But that doesn’t ring true to me. Those are sanskrit words and are commonly used in other contexts. Sanskrit is an Indian-European language and has so many words that are similar to words throughout the Indo-European language families. In this conversation, Chris seems unwilling to hear what Ronnie is saying about the possibility of Indian oral tradition being more prominent and influential than textual knowledge. That is absolutely true about everything in the Indian context. The living tradition is often so diverse and widely varies from textual tradition, and could be argued to be more important, given that only certain castes were allowed to be literate in Sanskrit. We assume that the texts always indicate too-down knowledge transfer. But there innumerable examples of the texts recording indigenous wisdom and claiming it as theirs. The Navagrahas are worshipped in India...there are temples dedicated to them. Almost every South Indian temple has a shrine dedicated to the navagrahas. Rahu and Ketu are part of the 9. So how is that nodes wouldn’t have been part of early Indian astrology? The very concept of Rahu and Ketu must have come from Indian astrology and they do have tremendous spiritual significance. I love Chris, but he seems obstinate and closed minded here and that feels disappointing,

[@malloryhennigar2904]

@@lakshminair2374 really well said Lakshmi - I very much agree with all of your points. I’m not Indian but I do speak Hindi and I’ve been to India many times. I think it may be difficult to understand the depth of the oral tradition in India until you’ve spent a lot of speaking and listening to people. I also think we as present day people may not be understanding how much culture sharing there was between different cultures in the ancient world. Just because things weren’t written down in India doesn’t mean that concepts didn’t potentially originate there or even grow out of the cultural contact between Indians and people from other cultures.

[@tinareynolds2938]

@@lakshminair2374 I heard a lecture re: oral traditions. That’s how everything was originally shared. And I believe was the preferred method of Indian Astrology teachings. I also heard someone say Plato didn’t trust writing things down at first. So he wrote his beliefs in a story form with two characters having discussions. Reading and writing are relatively new so why do we assume everything must be written down? I know I can’t believe everything I “hear” but it’s fits with your comment which I appreciate.

[@SusanHopkinson]

@@lakshminair2374 really good points! I have been to several of the navagraha temples in India, most recently the Shani temple in Maharashtra. Yet these are all roughly 800-1000 years old, whereas the ancient astrological texts are much older. It’s often said in India that “there has been a temple here for thousands of years before” but that only rarely stands up to historical scrutiny. So the temple argument is not proof that the nodes were always important.You’re right that that there is a lot of confusion about which direction knowledge was transferred in the past. It’s been my experience that Indian astrologers stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the influence of the Greeks, often insisting that Jyotish is uniquely indigenous to India. Certainly there is no way of knowing for sure anymore. I love exchanging ideas with others, whether through astrology or other wisdom traditions, and it saddens me when people polarise these things, especially as there is so much common ground. I appreciate Chris’ efforts to have astrologers from various backgrounds here, and look forward to seeing more 🙏🏻

[@CharpyTheHedgehog]

I feel it's important to mention Ketu's spiritual side and I'm surprised it wasn't brought up in the video. Rahu and Ketu are the Nodes of the Moon. That's important. If the Moon is the physical world (the Sub-Lunar realm) Rahu dives further into it while Ketu detaches from it. Rahu voraciously immerses itself into the material seeking wealth and fame and success (hence the modern Western obsession with the North Node). And it can give that, but it's hollow. The head cannot digest what it's eaten and only consumption and attachment remain, endlessly hungry for more but never satiated. Social media with its endless need to pump out more and more content for the ever hungry and unsatisfied masses is very Rahuvian. Meanwhile Ketu does the opposite- it detaches and purges, like waste eliminated from the body. It's the shadow planet of asceticism and renunciation. Through loss it detaches from the material and immerses itself into the spiritual and mystical. It is the karaka for enlightenment and spiritual power. Both Nodes are potent because while all the other planets are afflicted by the Sun (combustion) they have the power to eclipse it. If we're comparing the Nodes to the outer planets both would be Plutonian. But Rahu would be a Uranus-Pluto conjunction while Ketu would be a Neptune-Pluto conjunction.

[@SusanHopkinson]

💯 🙏🏻

[@peacepantherproductions]

This made a lot of sense to me as a sun conj Ketu (in 9th) person. And yes I’ve been separated from my father and always live close with nature, planets, animals, dreams/ spirit realm. Thank you for your comment!

[@peacepantherproductions]

J freeman, I’m an hour and half in and I disagree-

[@angelapellino885]

@@jfreeman3978 I disagree. Besides how your present your critics is very rude. You can disagree and be disappointed, everybody has his/her own opinions but your words are offensive, which is the magic of social media...

[@SusanHopkinson]

@@jfreeman3978 Chris literally read several Indian texts for clarity - he is supporting the message of his guest and comparing it to Hellenistic ideas. It seems a valid and useful approach to me 🙏🏻

[@malloryhennigar2904]

Wow! Wonderful to hear from Ronnie who is clearly so knowledgeable about the Indian context and jyotish. I see where you’re coming from Chris about the idea of the connection between the south node and past lives coming from theosophists, but I agree with Ronnie that it’s more likely that a teacher from India gave them that idea. She’s totally right to emphasize the importance of guru-student lineages rather than texts in India. While maybe this is not representative of most jyotish practitioners and it got over blown in the procession of transmission, I think it’s more likely that the idea came from India, or at the very least from cultural interaction, than not. I really appreciate Chris’ rigor and commitment to making verifiable claims!

[@retracplayz]

Not finished with the episode yet but had to pause to say how much I enjoyed the beginning portion on women’s astrology-the history and application. I’d devour a whole episode on the topic. Now back to the episode at hand...

[@makingwaffles]

Yes!

[@LabutacadeUrania]

I felt the same (and haven't finished the episode yet)

[@sincerelyamanifestor5856]

I love the Astrology Podcast community. The comment section here is so pleasant

[@ailishfarragher5994]

2 great teachers. Coming back to this podcast in 2023 and once again delighted with the accessible framing of such a complex and cross-tradition aspect of astrology.

[@barbaradoran-rogel4105]

Very interesting subject matter. Ronnie, you have a lovely voice. I too, took the Magic Bus from London to Turin. I was heading off to an au pair position. It broke down in Dover. Very magical experience. It would have been nice to have been heading to India to study astrology. They were different times.

[@sarahp5285]

This subject is so huge...I can’t wait for more on the nodes/eclipses! You two podcast well together. Thank you!!

[@honoluluwampum]

Is there anybody else interested in Tibetan astrology? To my knowledge, nothing has been translated yet and I've been crazily curious what wisdom is there and important culture to be preserved, being raised vajrayana. I ask because sanskrit is key:)

[@Anjani-S-Siegrist]

YES Ronnie!! 🙌🏽💗 This is how indigenous wisdom teachings live and I absolutely LOVED hearing the way you held the Indian teachings.

[@lolaandthepoets]

More impressed with each new episode, the depth, range, scholarship and quality, thank you.

[@SusanHopkinson]

I really enjoyed this conversation and learned so much as usual. Thanks to both of you! 🙏🏻

[@AntonSlavik]

Such an important subject. THANKS so much

[@cebolamaria]

Perfect timing! I have just read about nodes in your book, Chris!

[@Here_Today_]

What a rich conversation!

[@neocrex]

I really appreciate the effort given to understanding the origins of astrology and how individual concepts found their genesis.

[@daughterofvenus322]

05:33 Wow the begging storie for this woman is awesome, she help people to study vedic astrology, not only in in Americans, but in Europe too.

[@tinareynolds2938]

It seems to me that at some point in time there were not any astrologers reading charts. At some point in time a group or a person came up with the basics of a system and it has grown from there. How the original information came through is always on my mind. What makes the most sense is they somehow intuited it, via a meditation, a download or some sort of thing. I’m not sure what everyone else thinks and would love to hear the opinions of how others think it first came to be and how that person defined the meanings, etc. My real issue is how so many are so quick to say anything new isn’t valid. That’s super Saturnian and not open to the possibility that a person living now could Intuit new meaning. If we believe there is some sort of divination at play when reading all charts, how can we not remain open to the possibility that Rudyar or Forrest or whomever could be gleaning info from the ether that’s meant to be shared. I haven’t officially studied Evolutionary Astrology other than just as a spectator. I’m about 8 months in to an actual study of Hellenistic Astrology. And I love it! But it seems so closed minded in certain aspects. And also, if we are going based on archetypes and archetypes change as cultures change, there’s the basis for a change in some of the delineation. Just an outside view of what seems to be very judgemental and close-mindedness about opinions/uses outside of “our” own. I’m born on an eclipse and have 3 acquaintances also born on an eclipse and seriously life-changing events have happened to all of us when the same Saros series as at birth comes along. And I somehow knew before I knew their birthday that they were probably born on an eclipse. I asked to see their chart and told them why I wanted to. And then it was there. Bizarro. Astrology is amazing and also crazy that it works. Why? How? How did anyone ever figure it out?? 🤯

[@Dayanaknows]

well said bro 🕺🏽💞

[@schophi]

Yes, I think there can be any number of ways to do 'astrology'. Why not? It is like you say a divinatory art and as such can be constructed in any way. The question is in how sophisticated and consistent your system is and how much information you can gain potentially out of it. But there is something to astrology that is so beautiful as the divination does not occur as a result of a random process (as in drawing a Tarot card or throwing I Ching coins) but as a regular patterned movement of the celestial objects around us. Is the logic of astrology baked into our night skies? Is it really out there, objectively? I really don't know. It might be. Maybe Astrology was a brilliant outpicturing of our collective psyche onto the canvas of the heavens so we could see ourselves reflected in the stories that unfold in the skies over time.

[@consciousness5061]

Thank you guys, love you 😍😘❤

[@spiritualbasicspodcast5619]

This is great info! Thank you!

[@slkrantz271]

This was a great discussion!

[@aynos629]

Great guest and very informing episode! Thank you

[@annahancock5431]

This was so amazing! Thank you to the both of you!!

[@z3bekBG]

I love this! We are approaching the golden age of modern astrology!

[@VJ_7137]

Brilliant session 👍 please do more sessions with Ronnie 🙏

[@murlimewes3685]

Wait, what about "trouble from goblins"? Was not expecting that, but definitely curious to learn more.

[@svjetlanagasparic8752]

An interesting topic! I hope there will be more of them in both details and examples. I am overwhelmed with gratitude that there are people like you who share their knowledge with other people. Thank you very much.

[@malcolmmacqueen2340]

Great insights into the history & meaning of nodes

[@ailishfarragher5994]

The Magic Bus 🤩 sounds like magic times!

[@JulieQHHT]

Fantastic episode! My thanks 🙏

[@barbarabee2391]

Thank you both!

[@juliabonisteel541]

Brilliant Scholarly Episode. Thank you for sharing such deep knowledge.

[@allisonsaupe]

"7 years bad luck" ketu v.- dasha. I recently finished mine, it was the roughest time of my life. Major changes divorced quit career, also Found astrology became an artist, studied healing modalities etc learning. (Sept. 14, 1960). Love your channel Chris thank you!!

[@richardjnagle]

You remind me of genealogists. Trying to lock down source material for family records information. Sometimes we have the source, but no one knows where it came from because the story was lost with the death of an ancestor.

[@elizabethmiller7138]

Bhrighu and Naadi Jyotish would be a most fascinating topic sometime. This guest is so accurate about the "microclimates" of teachings within individual guru threads and Bhrigu/Naadi obscure but remarkable.

[@Xhayl]

Well this is timely. Thank you ❤

[@gaurastro6648]

Congratulations on 70 thousand subscribers!

[@ewadsworth]

This was wonderful

[@pratikpatil6342]

India has more knowledge orally and in culture itself than in written form so you have to factor in that factor while understanding India and it's knowledge i guess.

[@StephieGsrEvolution]

Right! Plus a lot of written stuff was stolen or destroyed by British colonists.

[@vanessagillettceramiques9523]

Great talk! Interesting information on 'the dissected dragon', inspired to learn more, thank you 😊

[@kippbleu8289]

This video is great for Hellenistic astrology students, and those who want to learn about the node significations.

[@simplebliss9911]

Thank you 😊

[@_aiborie]

This gonna be good!

[@_aiborie]

​@@jfreeman3978 It's alright I respect that 👍 These podcasts take much of your time and dedication, feel free to stop anytime! In fact, I'm still not done 😂

[@astrologylibrary]

Re Robert Deluce: He wrote a series of 11 articles on Indian astrology published serially by the A.F.S.A. (the future A.F.A.) in its monthly Bulletin from 1944-5. These were also reprinted by him separately as standalone publications. Then his book mentioned by Ronnie, Constellational Astrology, was published in 1963. I would think it was the final product of his many years of research into the subject. Deluce's first book of any character that I'm aware of was 'Rectification of the Horoscope' published by Llewellyn in 1930.

[@leooz8071]

I wish Chris and his comrades could do a presentation comparing Vedic (Sidereal) and Tropical Charts of famous people and explain the different benefits and interpretations derived from each. I get confused too often with Vedic and its mythological interpretation. Hopefully, Chris could present a Lisa Presley Birth Chart interpretation in Vedic and Tropical formats, and compare how the same or different conclusions could be derived from both.

[@michaelwatts207]

Thx, guys

[@Devious91]

Amazing and insightful podcast with so much much Wisdom :). Thank you Chris. I have a question around 1:35:00 you guy mention how western utilizes Gemini and Sagitarius to denote the Exaltations of the Nodes in Western and Taurus/Scorpio in Vedic. Could this be because of the degrees of difference between tropical and western astrology in general since the Axis of the earth plays into effect the calculation of the respective charts? (Ie. Vedic is 23-24 degrees behind Tropical)

[@nathalie7177]

WAOUH ! Its a very big shift you give to us ..... a whole course for lurning about the Nodes !!! Thank You Both

[@marygunning5121]

I remember the Magic Bus; what a wonderful name. I travelled to Greece on it in 1984.

[@johncena8970]

Hi Chris, why don't you get Sanjay rath on your podcast? He is a prominent vedic astrologer. He could shed some light on the nakshatras

[@makingwaffles]

Yes!

[@marlastar100]

Or Earnest W. He's also a great teacher, which I have learned a great deal from

[@JoytotheWorld11]

One thing that helps me with mentally reconciling the difference between Vedic astrology and Western astrology is considering differences between tropical and sidereal charts. The house placement of the node is the same, but if it's in a different sign, then it kind of makes more sense to me that both could be accurate and then which approach you're taking at the time. 2:20:18

[@indiaburke9457]

Just ask, how important would fertility cycles become to Early Civilization? How important and how difficult or complex is anned childbirth ? Of Welcoming Childbirth? How important for the grazing livestock or raising of horses, of the season for birth..? All of this life or death was immediate and real not a virtual game...we forget so easily

[@mettalove]

I'm feeling frustrated by the way the interviewer keeps shooting down Ms. Dreyer's experience and knowledge. She keeps restating the knowledge contained in the oral traditions...which in fact goes back before the written forms of knowledge transmissions. I would add though that true knowledge is found in nature herself...from the stars to the stones!

[@snoosis9885]

Yeah, have less respect for this podcast now as I am looking for way to actually go about my path in nature and away from texts.

[@peterdavistorres8545]

Yeah, I agree; Chris is way too fixated on "written texts" and forgets (and even invalidates it, to one degree or another) about the value of oral tradition. I mean, how was Buddhism mainly passed on through others? It was mainly through oral traditions.

[@SusanHopkinson]

In Sanskrit, the letter ‘e’ is always pronounced the same way - similar to the long a (ā) in English. This is why Namaste is pronounced Namas-TAY. So Ketu should be KAY-tu, not Kettu as is being pronounced here, surprisingly by a Sanskrit scholar and astrologer.

[@StephieGsrEvolution]

Always? You don't know if her Vedic teachers in India pronounced these Sanskrit words slightly different. There are so many variations of language in India in so many provinces, so why wouldn't they have different accents even for the ways they would pronounce ancient words of Sanskrita?

[@Cmrntylr]

I started listening to this again, but I need to get to the Neptune episode. I do think I can tell a story connected to a prior comment about aspects and secondary progressions because it’s big in my gemini release. If a person wanted to use sun as father, moon as mother, that’s fine because it works here. 12th house sun oppose 6th house moon in an applying opposition where father was lost over time early in life and I did have much of a mother because she went back to college to work in the medical field not being present much until the mid teen years. Sagittarius 4th with Neptune.. so the gemini release was nasty/difficult because this has the rahu 1st virgo with Saturn, Ketu south pisces, gemini mc and Sagittarius with IC opposite MC. A detail I often leave out is the driving force of that zodiacal release was (by astrology purposes) confronting the Ketu impact. Ketu is on the exact degree of lot of eros, not sure if that even matters. Experiences in early childhood created a Ketu effect. It’s not surprising to see the gemini release prior to a cancer release with Jupiter in the 11th where I’m more comfortable viewing that as a “spouse” indicator. What’s my ideal spouse and what do I need to do for myself to be able to be happy in that scenario. It’s an area I won’t compromise on even if I die single. lol Ketu impact is that detachment or shutting down which reasons are already stated in comments. When I took nodes out of practice then put them back in recently and then looked at transits, there’s definitely a Ketu theme. Ideal is very much described in a 11th cancer but there’s also the idea of someone who’s a best friend first who also has that quality of “heart skipping a beat” when they’re near. Ruled by moon, I feel comfortable that that’s describing the relationship where I’m more a “motherly” role. Anyways, that’s been confronted. Rahu.. this is more difficult and also easy. I can explain rahu by saying I discover when my grandparents passed that she had a taped astrological reading and I drew up her chart. Sagittarius ascendant, moon Sagittarius, rahu Sagittarius. You’d look at Jupiter, in virgo 10th conjunct sun within 2 degrees. You can actually visualize my rahu in ascendant with Saturn. Rahu is a very malefic Saturn where giving 110% is about 390% short of expectations. The idea of “releasing” south is releasing hidden feelings of bonding disruptions in youth and releasing from rahu is dropping intense perfectionism. Saturn transits, especially with Saturn with rahu, appear extremely important as well as Saturn pisces transit. Node transits appear extremely important also. They are like light in shadows on how they work in their malefic influence. I view malefic as “tough love” where you have various “parenting” styles. Through that lens, I often hint that it’s extremely possible what I do for self will relate to “spouse” because of the moon aspects. I wouldn’t be surprised if that person has similar placements and part of the caring/nurturing relates to lessons from working with those nodes. Strong Saturn, Jupiter connected to Ketu, a rough rahu placement who may not be as lucky as I am where I can just go confront the situations. Things like reincarnation, I’m actually fine with. Just because it looks like I can tie those meanings to this life doesn’t mean that could still be related to karma from another. Its just that having them on a 1st 7th, plus a peak period zodiacal release with them square, I may have an opportunity to deal with it. Dumping Ketu and running away with rahu is an interpretation I don’t like. I like that Ketu is a spiritual malefic and rahu is a physical world malefic that can teach through hard lessons. Ketu is what likely pushed me to plato, hermeticism, Jung to a degree. Anyways, another piece of Jung would be having friends who later became psychiatrists who raised eyebrows about going down the direct path who’d say to read Red Book due to actual doing it in a different way. I did analyze dreams. But I didn’t do active imagination per se. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jupiter cancer 11th is a successful person who’s somewhat tormented by their need to drive for success who’d need some form of emotional support. Time to analyze Neptune in that equation. 🫠

[@debitollman1602]

Chris can u please post the pdf of the Abu Mashar text on the nodes

[@marlastar100]

This was interesting, but now I have confused thoughts....when you learn that the nodes are important ' but find out it's a new concept [ used mostly in the last 4 decades] : I might find a setting in the idea that astrology expands its information as time goes by.

[@lanascribe]

Does anyone else love and believe in Astrology but have this crippling insecurity that others will find out? I'm a Psychology student at Uni and I keep seeing Astrology come up in text books as an example of ridiculous notions and something to be scoffed at. I feel so uptight about it, because I value what I'm learning in psychology but there is so much closed minded snobbery embedded in it. It's an uncomfortable clash of interests. I will not be scoffed out of my beliefs though.

[@lanascribe]

@@Historian212 Thank you, that makes me feel significantly better!

[@Kate-hh8yi]

I wonder do these texts scoff at other belief systems? 🤔

[@paulmagus2133]

great discussion by you both, thank you. Chris , do you now use the nodes as Rahu for increasing the effects of a nearby body and Ketu as decreasing the a planets power to act. would you use this natally or only for Mundane charts. I have only used the nodes as malefic when in conjunction to a Planet with an orb of a few degrees.

[@bodypurposeyoga3380]

On my end, I learned that the nodes are “malefic”. Ketu intensifies, Rahu amplifies. Ketu wants liberation and therefore is never satisfied with the house it’s in, it’s never good enough, it’s uptight and let doubt creeps in (for good reasons). It works as a security paradigm until it doesn’t and pushes us out in the Rahu jungle where we have little experience and lots of fears. But it’s the journey we need to evolve and allow life to be life so we can go back to the Ketu house enriches with our Rahu experiences. All of this is dependent on depositor’s dignity, planets states and overall Heath of the chart (including proximity when conjunct another planet). That’s why I don’t really like blanket statements like “if you have Rahu in x house, it means this”. It’s a lot more subtle than that. Transformational when you understand and allow it in your chart.

[@amirokareem3535]

I have Ketu in tropical Taurus conjunct Venus in the 9th 🏠 at 1 degree. To me ketu seems more in alliance with Neptune than mars and attributes of rahu seems more like Uranus than Saturn.

[@SusanHopkinson]

As an example of how Indian astrological foundations are being modified by modern ideas/confusion we can see the recent trend of using planetary lords as Nakshatras rulers. Nakshatras have associated deities but not planetary rulers. These types of innovations come from combining the zodiac and Nakshatras inappropriately. I see this kind of selective understanding in other ways where people have relied more upon their guru (especially where that has been a parent) than upon the traditional texts.

[@Law_And_Society]

Swarbhanu...That's Rahu & Ketu when together.

[@eveosiris3039]

Depending on which system I use my north node is the degree of the Ascendant OR in the 12th house... very near Jupiter. I have been pondering that lately since it's all happening in the second decan of Aries.

[@Cmrntylr]

If I had to be pulled into astrology for any actual reason it’s to clean up rahu/Ketu. I got into the nodes when my grandparents had advanced dementia/Alzheimer’s and found they had their legal documents set up where only each other could make legal and medical decisions (totally Aries north and libra south there…) not expecting to both become cognitively disabled at the same time. Want to see a nodal axis out of control first hand while learning about them? Try that. I go by synchronicities and I dove into nodes again back in late September and had one with one specific interpretation which happened to be one that’s hard to find that was mentioned here. It was referred to as the kundalini serpent but not in that north node/rahu way I’m sure that’s concluded; it’s actually easy to understand by just looking up a lecture by Joseph Campbell about the kundalini dharma which is Rahu/north is the power chakras and Ketu/south is the upper. Rahu as the material desires/experiences that can be malefic (maybe more accurate saying malefic by degree) by dignity and Ketu is spiritual. Since it was near Halloween and I was getting into Reece’s candy I used an analogy of rahu wants to live on candy and Ketu wants actually nutrition. Let’s say vegetarian as Ketu but healthier is a balanced diet. Or, for fun, rahu is Freud who’s all about cocaine and groin libido while Jung was more into hallucinogens and spiritual escapism where the truth is in the middle. It still fits the Joseph Campbell explanation of the dragon myth where the dragon is excess of what it can’t use representing ego drive but the goal is to defeat it, crack it open (heart chakra) to receive the boon. With reincarnation, I’m split on this and what’s interesting is I can track what you’d call nodal “karmic” relationships and say I have a TON of them. As that astrologer said, though, it’s unpredictable which may be why the nodes are so wildly interpreted yet have common details. I became aware recently that a person who became sort of an unusual best friend I knew since my sophomore year of high school that resurfaced during my Saturn return is the most karmic (node connections) person I’ve ever seen which is equally distributed but she has sun in conjunction of my south where I have no south node conjunctions with her. Mutual Saturn conjunctions with each other’s nodes, etc.. humorously, we almost dated in the past but relationships with people of bad character made that not happen because I questioned hers. Worked out fine, we’re extremely close like family these days. Also humorous; other potential partners who had strong karmic charts she absolutely hated. The astrologer and actual style of vedic, I’d have to actually look and I’m not getting into nodal breakdowns until holiday breaks. It was mentioned in this cast though. My Ketu in the 7th impacts my 11th and 3rd (I feel 1st is redundant) and I’m notoriously detached from those houses but my south is in pisces where my Jupiter is exalted and Neptune is in my 3rd. Not getting into house systems… that read reads Ketu as wanting to be like Jupiter where Jupiter is the only beneficial planet. Rahu wants to be like mars but because it’s material it does well in earth signs. So virgo is good, but frustrating. I’d agree rahu is problematic in ethe 1st because it causes a smokey fog about “self”. My renewed interest lately, at least today, that made me actually listen to this one was looking at transits to see if a pattern existed related to when I had a dream about a person and met them 8 years later and it was a uranus transit of my south 8 years ago and a Neptune transit (both conjunction) about 2 years ago. It was a dual interpretation, the illusion of one person disappeared realizing my interest was a potential capability of said person that wasn’t there to another meeting of a person who reminded me of that dream where I said “similar, but too short (etc)” to actually meeting them which is who taught me how to read chart overlays because everything about it was weird. Said karmic friend who doesn’t like anyone actually likes her.. she’s working in Egypt right now so we made a deal to eat barbecued scorpions when I go visit. I like bringing up the Neptune transit because others assume the worst, but I usually state nothing about the dream means marriage or anything. Just someone known. She looked at the 1st/7th and didn’t care for that too much (lol), but pointed out if she’s all about “freedom” that’s the placement to have it. Work overseas for a year? Cool. I mentioned in another comment about Jordan Peterson having an “experience” related to nodal placement. I mean, he’s always touring lecturing on responsibility where he’s often getting taught how to be responsible. Like.. neglecting home to find his wife may be terminally ill not being able to emotionally cope then getting hooked on medications needing to flee to Russia for addiction treatment knowing it’d hurt his image if he was discovered. Then he was. Saturn on top of Ketu in the 10th is a very malefic placement despite its good qualities. He’s not entirely bad, he’s been helpful to some. (Ramble over) You had a great episode about Jung and his impact on astrology that addresses issues I have with those who speak of his work; it’s only on the podcast. 😢 Ramble over-that’s my rahu in virgo with Mercury.

[@parporna]

The Ketu symbol is similar to a pattern on the back of a cobra head when it is fully extended.

[@Kodanda-Punarvasu-Jyotish]

Very good discussion, but puzzled to see so many misconceptions! A nice interview, with plenty of wrong statements. After giving reference of Varahmihira's Bruhat Jataka, the statement was made that Rahu & Ketu were not used in horoscopic astrology. This is absolutely wrong statement. Rahu and Ketu have since long been in use in Indian horoscopic astrology, besides mundane astrology. Bruhat Parashara, which actually dates centuries before Bruhat Jataka and not after, clearly and on numerous occassions mention nodes. In vimshottari dasha system rahu, ketu have been alloted periods. Even if we ignore a question whether there is mention of R&K in Vedas or not, almost all other important ancient indian astrology texts mention about use of rahu ketu in prediction. Nakshatras, a well known unique concept in indian astrology, also use R&K. Saravali does mention Rahu's effects. Another wrong statement was that ketu was not considered as a planet but as a comet, smoke. It is clear misconception. Ketu as a node and Ketu as one of upagrahas are two different entities, although the name Ketu is common for both. Both have different functions. Although Ketu as upagraha is hardly used in prediction by modern vedic astrologers. Such interviews highlight two points (1) how deeply interested are western astrologers in learning vedic astrology, which fact must be appreciated, & (2) how misunderstandings (even in concepts) still prevail among western astrologers regarding vedic astrology for various reasons.

[@StephieGsrEvolution]

Thank you. This makes way more sense to me.

[@kikismeditationservice]

Hi what was the academia.edu publication mentioned? Thought it would be in the liner notes sorry! Should have written it down

[@TheAstrologyPodcast]

Here it is: www.academia.edu/41560714/From_Lunar_Nodes_to_Eclipse_Dragons_The_Fundaments_of_the_Chaldean_Art_CCAG_V_2_131_40_and_the_Reception_of_Arabo_Persian_Astrology_in_Byzantium

[@ThoseTrivialThings]

enjoyed this episode a lot, very analytical and informative. hope there will be further in-depth episodes about using vedic astrology with hellenistic astrology.

[@JoytotheWorld11]

Are those specific degrees in Gemini and Sagittarius related to or very close to the galactic center, by chance? 1:37:45

[@laurenvaccaro2712]

Would you say the definitions in Phaladeepika apply to delineations of natal charts that use the tropical zodiac?

[@aynos629]

Ohhh, what wonderful times: A magic bus going to India ❤❤

[@petosiris173]

Thanks, you said Rahu as Saturn and Ketu as Mars but did not say Rahu is co-Lord Aquarius and Ketu is co-Lord Scorpion in modern Jyotish.

[@juliabreaux4226]

Please correct me if I am wrong but as I was listening to this it occurred to me that the sidereal and tropical zodiacs are different because of procession and that in tropical the point of reference has to to with the solstices and the length of light on earth whereas the sidereal zodiac is more closely based (though not exactly) on the actual positions of the constellations. Therefore what may be considered ♊️ in the tropical zodiac would be seen as ♉️ in the sidereal system and what is interpreted as your 11th house in the tropical system would be taken to be your 10th house in the sidereal system.

[@criticsable]

It depends on degree of the placement too e.g. I’ve Mercury at 25 degree cancer tropical and 3 degree cancer sidereal. So best thing is to get a sidereal chart :-)

[@namtree0864]

Me with Rahu in the 11 house and having ear problems 🙂

[@navypinkdesign]

I imagine that if Ketu (if he had a head) and Rahu would be laughing at this conversation about them. Ketu would rather we never even had to look up where he came from or what he means; You should just know intuitively! But Rahu is happy to change meanings through transliteration, warp history as it passes from culture to culture and keep us confused about who he is and why he’s here until we earn our exit out of samsara. 😂

[@JoytotheWorld11]

1:02:37 okay I'm starting to feel a bit uneasy about having my Nodes closely conjunction my horizon 😅 lol

[@lobaetoile8440]

The more I learn about astrology, the less importance I give to the nodes of the Moon. The appeal of the nodes is that we want someone or something to tell us the answers of "what's my life purpose?", "how should I live my life?", "what's the solution to all my problems?", "where should I focus or in what area should I invest my time and energy?" We want someone to show us a map with indications of the route we should follow in order to reach an specific destination. But, life is more complex than that, our charts have many more factors. Well, life can be simple too, but... The point is that many things have either no answer, an answer that can change, or more than one answer.

[@lobaetoile8440]

@@Historian212 I found that comment. It was arguing that in India oral tradition is extremely prominent and that the symbolism of certain temples suggests that they had their own original view of the nodes. I really appreciate that comment, it reafirms what I knew about Indian culture. But, it doesn't explain their general understanding of the nodes.

[@bodypurposeyoga3380]

I find the nodes to be the most transformational element of astrology. Which this interview, though very interesting, barely touched upon.

[@lobaetoile8440]

@@bodypurposeyoga3380 I think there are other elements that help you develop and self-actualization a lot more. Like angles and aspects. I find difficult to apply nodes to individuals lives because they're less specific (generational) and the archetype can indicate too many things. People also tend to idealise nodes. In any case, whatever works for someone, is valid.

[@bodypurposeyoga3380]

@@lobaetoile8440 I agree. I actually always use those with the Lajjitaadi Avasthas analysis which is conjunction and aspect based as well as certain foundational yogas (I practice Vedic astrology but using tropical zodiac). In other words, never in isolation. But am also always happy to hear about other techniques in that area:) (I actually just received Chris’s book on Hellenic astrology)

[@lobaetoile8440]

@@bodypurposeyoga3380 Oh, if there are close or multiple aspects to the nodes, then I would consider them. I apply the same logic to outer planets. Otherwise I assume it's not too relevant/something to hyper-focus or obsess about. Something I've noticed, is that in my family's Synasty, there's almost a narrative you can see with the nodes? It's just a small thing, it may not be the case in all families... It's hard to explain. Also, I've noticed similar patterns with people who have the north node conjuncting or opposing sun, moon or even Pluto... Specially in the case of famous artists. I don't know enough to make conclusions though.

[@TheElectropiano]

Do I use the true nodes or regular nodes? Because in my own chart the change from Libra-aries to scorpio-Taurus 👀

[@StephieGsrEvolution]

True nodes are most accurate calculations for the current time of the chart cast, but the median node is the average calculation. Imo, both are significant in your case. I would still give prominence to the true nodes, but you have lessons of the cusp you're working out.

[@LanaK83]

So as a person with Rahu in gemini and Ketu in Sagittarius. Would mean what? Success after long suffering? I hope and pray.My sun is in Taurus and Moon in Scorpio. In standard astrology i am a Gemini with cancer rising and moon in sag.

[@StephieGsrEvolution]

No, it means you are going from big picture, to focusing on details. Back to basics, in order to be able to teach your wisdom.

[@infamousdon82]

1:25:00

[@herbzrgreen]

🙏🔥💚

[@user-yj1oh4xy5q]

he has Rahu in the eleventh house? , I am 30 years old and I have no problem with the ear !

[@StephieGsrEvolution]

She's going by Vedic/sidereal.

[@tosan3117]

very good discussion! Does anyone know where I can read more on the Persian mythology related to the Dragon? What is the name of the book Demetra George translated on the subject? I know in Shahnameh and Avesta there was this evil king who dominated the world for 1000 years whose name literally meant the Dragon (Ajidahak in Avesta or Zahak in Shahnameh). Two serpents grew out of wounds on his shoulders where the Devil had kissed his shoulders. So Zahak killed two young men every day to feed their brains to his shoulder-snakes. At the end he was overthrown by Kaveh the Blacksmith (whose sons were captured by Zahak to be fed to his snakes) and the Prince Fereydoun (the true king), who is associated with the fixed Royal Star of Persia, Regulus). Other than these accounts, I don't know much about the Dragon in the Persian mythology, but I am interested to learn.

[@Haz114]

They keep avoiding the 8th house with the nodes!!!

[@dhoo987]

According to Astro.com Donald Trump has Rahu in the 11th - not the 10th, as your guest says. Is that because she is using a different house system?

[@bodypurposeyoga3380]

I just checked my software and, according to sidereal zodiac, Rahu is in the 10th but it’s definitely in the 11th with the tropical zodiac. She probably uses sidereal then, like most Vedic astrologers (unless you study with guys like Ernst Wilhelm, Ryan Kurzack or Vic DiCara like I do).

[@kimsmith1750]

I thought at first it was Jenny from 90 Day Fiancé 🤣

[@Miss_spyca]

I suddenly stopped wanting to go to that job. Like when i use my intuition and spiritually touch that direction, i feel the wall there. Maybe my purpose was to go to the interview and after just not accept the offer. And when i suggest ill stay at the current one - im like very happy inside. What do you suggest?

[@Miss_spyca]

I just want to stay. I've already did the hard work and I just can enjoy, doing my astrology thing. And I'm really appreciated, like in the emotional way. And Ive hired a good coworker and it just feels like the wrong thing to do leaving them ❤

[@Miss_spyca]

I think I've decided I'm staying. I don't want to sell construction materials. I want to be safe and comfy and within the family and have plenty of time and space for my friends and hobbies. Maybe it was my special magic done - to channel South node out of my mc

[@Miss_spyca]

But also I would have to go on official employment. Maybe I don't need that too❤

[@Miss_spyca]

Like my Venus is rules over my mc. It's in cancer. Does it look like construction shit like very not esthetic materials. Or does it look like restaurants and hotels?

[@Miss_spyca]

But maybe I've increased my profit this way. Today ive got 0,2% of our monthly profit share

[@JoytotheWorld11]

FROG DISEASES 🤣 Oh nooooooooooo 1:08:32

[@teresayost472]

Chris is so uncomfortable, she probably knows more about Indian Astrology than most because of living there. Like her. 👍