The One Disney Bad Guy to Actually Earn Redemption

[@venlocity2]

Dont give Disney credit for anything Treasure Planet related, they did everything in their power to stop it from being made before doing everything in their power to make sure it failed

[@arnequis]

Interesting. I heard the exact same thing about The Princess and the Frog.

[@venlocity2]

@@arnequis I can't confirm anything about that one, but I do know they lied to the creator of Treasure Planet by making him create other movies for them under the idea of "oh, just do this one thing for us and we will let you make that dream movie you've been asking constantly over the last few years for", and once they were finally forced to let him make Treasure Planet they shoved it between two of their own blockbuster movies, barely advertised it, and had what little advertising it got completely spoil the twists and plot. It's maddening

[@sedarue123]

@@venlocity2to add to this story, there was a management transition that happened between the makings of the several movies. The first management team promised this in writing, and when new management came in they had to uphold the agreement. But that didn’t mean that they liked the pitch or had faith in the movie so little to know marketing was done and the marketing that was done had little to nothing actually showing what the movie was about.

[@alexandru5369]

Agree. Budget was overblown (obviously was gonna be expensive due too the CGI mixed in wit 2D animation) no marketing. it being released the same weekend as the 1st Harry Potter movie ( Like why? Besides Harry Potter this film was a summer film why is it being released in the Fall? The steam Punk vibe. Treasure Island being a classic but hard too adapt on screen for whatever reason. This was Disney intentionally losing money

[@vetarlittorf1807]

​@@alexandru5369Not just Harry Potter, but Lord of the Rings as well, both highly anticipated movies. They also tried to sabotage Lilo and Stitch by releasing it against Spider-Man and Attack of the Clones. Michael Eisner was a monster.

[@rosamontano6744]

I think another similar one could be Goob from Meet the Robinson's. He starts as pretty obvious as a bad guy. Then slowly you uncover his secrets and understand his situation but also realize he wasn't evil for evil's sake, he was stuck in the past. Then the boiler hat is truly the evil villain who wants to dominate the world. By the end we want Goob to have a redemption and a future. Then Lewis corrects it in the past and we see him have a much better future. I have a very big soft spots for these movies. They may have been bombs or whatever but what they do right.... They go above and beyond for

[@santiagoarrieta2175]

I agree that he is a well done character in an antagonist role, the problem is that it is debatable if he can be considered a villain, the truth is he was inoffensive incapable to make any real harm. He is a pawn of the Hat, a fake villain(but an antagonist) looking like an old cartoon one, make you not pay attention to Doris, in the first scenes, then quickly dropped showing the Hat is crearly in control of the situation and Goob it's too incompetent without it to be taken seriously. It's a pretty good contrast the movie constantly subvert expectatives, the use Goob to make us believe we're are dealing with a cartoon villain instead of Skynet.

[@spongeyspikes09]

then again, if I was him, I'd definitely blame Lewis too, like come on dude just let me freakin sleep!

[@nemowindsor8724]

He’s not really redeemed. If anything, he rejects redemption. Bowler Hat Guy goes off on his own, perhaps to find his own story without relation to Lewis for the the first time in his life. It’s not really redemption, but it is poetic and interesting.

[@santiagoarrieta2175]

@@nemowindsor8724 what he rejected was absolution, said action itself redeem him, absolution is a pardon for his crimes, if he would have stay with Lewis, he would have avoided any consequence of his previous actions or at least most of them. He matured instead, he accepted what happened and his fault on it, and walked away expecting the consequences of said choices. To the end is not good for that version of Goob, should have stopped existing as Lewis changed his past deviating his past too far from said version, and that is a direct consequence of his actions, because he tells Lewis the event that defines him in an act of spite. And he is not smart but is not stupid enough to not realize it after seeing Lewis erasing Doris from existence with a simple promise, that likely put all in perspective to him how much harm could have caused.

[@edgardeitz5746]

"How true, how true..." "Al, I was just about to _get_ to that..." WHAP!!! But seriously, I see where you're coming from.

[@geraldhuff7413]

“You give up a few things, chasing a dream” a line that shall always stick with me

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah. With just the one line, he tells you so much about his past.

[@toddfraser3353]

I wouldn't call him a sympathetic villain, but a likable one. Silver is a friendly/personable character. But we don't relate to his actions. It is just Greed, not a story where he needs the treasure to feed a family, or even to pay off debt. He just wants the treasure, and is willing to kill and perform evil acts to get the treasure. We are not rooting for him to win, but hoping he would give up and repent, to become the good person that we also see.

[@moviemadness2536]

That's why I'm saying he earns his redemption. Because not only does the audience want to see it happen, but ultimately that redemption comes when he chooses to let go of his greed and save Jim.

[@Victor-056]

@@moviemadness2536 Not only that, he _easily_ could have walked away with the treasure he swiped early on, but he instead gave it to Jim for his family to rebuild the Benbow Inn, before going on his way.

[@moviemadness2536]

@@Victor-056 And there's that too.

[@santiagoarrieta2175]

He is sympathetic not relatable, the difference is instead to understand why he did these things you see something worth in the other person, some common ground, some good trait and attitude that is not enough to eclipse or compesate the bad ones. Simply there is something that prevents you from hating him while he doesn't cross the line, even have him around.

[@silversamurai0267]

I'd actually like to debate against that idea of him just being focused on greed. I don't think it's greed. He said at one point in the film, to Jim, that "you give up a few things... chasing a dream". And when he finally get to the treasure, his immediate response isn't to pocket the treasure, but to exclaim, "After a lifetime of searching, I can *touch* it!" Implying awe and fullfillment just to have *found* the treasure. I don't believe Silver's search for Treasure Planet was based on greed. I believe that, much like Jim himself, he simply dreamed of going on an adventure, and finding Treasure Planet. I think that, unlike Jim, he didn't really have anyone worth keeping him from that dream. He went for it. He made sacrifices. He gave important parts of himself up. Not for greed, but for a dream. And the longer it took, the more desperate he became. The further out of his reach it seemed, the more sacrifices he was willing to make. By the time Jim (and the audience) meet Silver, he's already given so much of himself up - perhaps even his own moral compass - that NOT finding Treasure Planet is simply no longer an option for him. It would be an injustice to himself and all that he has lost so far, to just... give up his dream. But he does give it up. Because it wasn't about greed. It was simply a dream he was too desperate to let go of. But he let's it go for Jim. Because he sees himself in Jim - he sees the potential of a man he could have been. When Jim questions his choice to give up the gold, Silver doesn't say something like, "It's just gold". He says, "Just a lifelong obsession... I'll get over it." It was the obsession of chasing down a dream and taking a piece of it home to prove to himself and the world that all he had sacrificed had been worth it. He chased a dream for so long that he began to confuse what the dream even was. It wasn't about the treasure. It was always just about finding Treasure Planet. The gold was just the proof and the reward for all that he gave up along the way. That's what I believe, anyway. That's why he has such a great villain-hero dynamic with Jim. They are two sides of the same coin. Silver is just a reflection of what Jim could have grown up to be, had Silver himself not come into his life. Thinking of it in that context just makes the movie (and Silver himself) mean more to me, emotionally. And with that context, I would absolutely say that Silver is a sympathetic/relatable villain. Because, honestly, who wouldn't want to give anything to go after a dream?

[@WolforNuva]

Treasure Planet is honestly such a gem. I think another thing that helps is that you really get the tug of his relationship with Jim and his role as the pirate leader, so it feels natural when he eventually lets his attachment for Jim win out. When he's called out on having a soft spot for Jim you can tell that nail was hit right on the head, but of course he has to deny it to his crew, they're ruthless pirates.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, that's all done really well.

[@TofuBug24]

Treasure Planet along with Emperor's New Groove are probably my wife and my two favorite movies. We have watched them SO many times we could practically quote them. I think Kuzco is also a well done redemption character just more from a humorous story telling than dramatic. Like Silver the mannerisms of his core nature don't just disappear because he has a change of heart. Heck he never even admits his initial affront to Pacha was wrong. He hilariously DOUBLE'S DOWN "blaming" Pacha for lying to him about singing hills Something about that feel so authentic to how a real person with a LIFETIME of engrained behavior would change for the better

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, Kuzco is another good example of a Disney character being redeemed, but the only difference is that he was never an out and out "villain". I even did a whole separate video on that movie and Kuzco's character in it.

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

I think the doubling down at the end was just Kuzco actually apologizing, but in a very Kuzco way.

[@TofuBug24]

@@LloydTheZephyrian Oh definitely that was my point it was realistic depiction of how a person like Kuzco would apologize this close to his change of heart

[@WolforNuva]

@@moviemadness2536 He was a villain surely. He planned to uproot a whole village of innocents because they were in the way of what he wanted, with no care about what happens to them after the fact, because he can and he wants a summer pool. Presumably he has done similar things before, since the movie implies he's never done anything for someone else before, it's always been about himself and what he wants. I'll have to watch your video to see your thoughts, curious to see why you don't think he is.

[@wolfsongrising]

@@WolforNuva comparing him and Yzma kinda makes the difference why he doesn't qualify as a villain imo. They're pretty similar in the beginning, she's just malicious and he's been raised to think he's better than everyone else and everyone lives for his happiness. Took a few bumps and realizing he was a pretty lousy llama to shake up his world view, but he was open to it after. Yzma was self-centered and entertained delusions of self importance by choice. One's a snotty brat, the other's a villain. Just my two cents on it lol.

[@Victor-056]

4:12 A good way to have made Callahan more sympathetic would have _not_ been for him to snarl "IT WAS HIS MISTAKE!", but rather, to hesitate or flinch, even if briefly, and while avoiding looking at Hiro, state "it was his mistake" in a pained tone, maybe even go as far as to focus on his hand and see it shakily clenched in a fist as he says that. Such things would have made Callahan more redeemable, that is, it _shows_ he regrets that Tadashi was caught in the explosion, one that _he_ staged, and that even though he says "It was [Tadashi's] Mistake", acting the way I described can turn it into a double meaning... That Callahan is saying "It was [MY] Mistake"... Moreso as Callahan believed Tadashi had a bright future ahead of him, and while he considers his revenge "Justifiable", the fact that Tadashi was killed in the process is Callahan's regret.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, they REALLY screwed up Professor Callahan.

[@michaellilly965]

I think Callahan was deliberately written this way to show the path Hiro was actually taking. Hiro actually wanting vengeance instead of justice and willing to do stuff to get it like reprogram Baymax making him more of a weapon and using Tadashi's friends for his quest for vengeance disguising it as justice to them.

[@Victor-056]

​@@michaellilly965 You can _STILL_ do that while making Callahan feel regretful. Remember, Callahan _still_ crossed the line with how he faked his demise and got Tadashi killed. Making Callahan not feel regret for getting Tadashi killed just made his sympathetic backstory seem redundant.

[@phillipwalling7470]

THIS alone would've saved Callahan's character.

[@ryohoshi8445]

@@michaellilly965 That and to just make it clear that a sob story doesn't magically make what you're doing OK or anything--though I also admittedly had a suspicion on rewatching later that Callahan was...well...probably only still alive because Krei was still around. (But I somehow doubt Disney then would be okay with doing more than vaguely hint that somebody's got that particular kind of mental health problem given that KZbin currently is very enthusiastic about encouraging we use roundabout ways to talk about it when someone might, y'know, wish for Truck-kun to turn up.)

[@otakutoongamer5616]

Every Treasure-Planet video in KZbin is a must-watch to me.

[@moviemadness2536]

Thanks. I hope mine lived up to the standard.

[@otakutoongamer5616]

@@moviemadness2536it super did ❤

[@distray_and_disarray]

YES

[@snappwolftv]

Absolutely

[@sky0kast0]

Tis a good problem to have

[@liljenborg2517]

They also had the advantage of well written source material that they actually hewed quite close to. On the other hand, with Raya, they were trying to rip off in one 90 minute movie what Avatar the Last Airbender took three seasons to do with Zuko.

[@moviemadness2536]

That's true. Though I think there's more to why Raya and the last Dragon screwed up than that.

[@spongeyspikes09]

I still remember that crucial scene as Jim made his escape with the map, Silver had him dead in his sights, had a clear shot, and yet he hesitated. When he tried to bargain with Jim that it'll only be just the two of them who gets the treasure, and the finale where he had to sacrifice his lifelong obsession with the treasure to save Jim. That's when I knew Silver was never a villain... He was the Father that Jim desperately needed in his life

[@moviemadness2536]

That pretty much sums it all up beautifully.

[@truekurayami]

One more reason why Silver works so well as a Sympathetic Villain is because of what kind of "Hero" Jim is. If Jim as the protagonist was a more "Traditional Hero" styled character the way the Captain and her First Mate were somewhat portrayed would have made it even harder to pull Silver off as sympathetic. When you got a dynamic playing off a "Traditional Hero" styled character you need to have a different approach, such as Mr. Freeze and Batman for most of Freeze's depictions, he is a good guy driven to desperation to save his wife and we get to see most of the time Freeze is away from Nora he is just a shell of the man he was trying to make himself whole anyway he can.

[@moviemadness2536]

That could very well be another reason.

[@Mediados]

I want to love Raya, but the message is just so wrong. "You should always extend trust, even if someone betrays you twice."

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, they REALLY screwed that movie up. It still makes my blood boil sometimes.

[@wimsylogic65]

​@@moviemadness2536 I agree. Watched it with my kids and I had to correct They're understanding of the message. I use it as an example of what not to do. I showed them where Disney got it wrong and explained why. Like when Riah was blamed for the dragon being killed, When it was 100% The girl that keeps betraying her. And the problem was that she kept Blindly trusting despite as it against it. Ending was so stupid.

[@spongeyspikes09]

seriously thats like letting a certain austrian painter roam free. Imagine you have him right where you want him, ALONE, with no weapons, no backup whatsover... AND YOU LET HIM GO?!

[@Mediados]

@@spongeyspikes09 That's why I always hate when people say shooting unarmed people is bad. In 90% of cases, yes. But if Hitler stood in his office without a gun, what do you want to do, wait till he gets his from the bedroom?

[@nyanchat2657]

If anything, that message is actually harmful. 'Trust everyone no matter what'. Hmm... I wonder what could go wrong...

[@newbiegamelover4767]

I think the problem is that Disney (and Hollywood in general) seems to be treating sympathetic/redeemable villains like some sort of fashion trend. It's like treating a hammer like it's a trendy tool-- something that should be used when needed, but instead is used until it no longer brings in the big bucks, and then gets thrown out like trash.

[@DinoDave150]

You could say that exact same analogy for a LOT of things.

[@moviemadness2536]

@newbiegamelover4767 Yep, that's definitely a problem.

[@AshePBlack]

Writing matters though in any story, don't redeem a villain just for sake of it. I agree with other comments though that if hero and villain both show flaws vs being traditional hero trope you can get a sympathetic villain because some are still human. This said certain storries need to keep a villain a villain, however does greed make one evil, or is it ones actions. Also there was a comment that said silvers crew are pirates, so he couldn't act too soft in front of them either. Haven't seen this in ages but it was good

[@matityaloran9157]

15:29, I don’t know who convinced people that a villain had to be sympathetic to be a good character but that person was dead wrong

[@moviemadness2536]

I couldn't agree more with that statement. That's exactly how I feel.

[@assssaaasasass]

The only thing it caused was a wave of people who tries to justify every bad actions of antagonists and say that we don't get their complexity or understand the character because we want them to be called out and suffer the consequences of their actions.🤦‍♀️

[@matityaloran9157]

@@assssaaasasass Agreed

[@orangeslash1667]

@@matityaloran9157 I think Disney felt that they had to have more mature stories than usual???? However there are more ways to telling a good story than just redeemable villains. For example Hunch Back of Notre Dame has a theme of lust because Frollo goes insane over Esmeralda. Or Encanto which doesn't even have a villain outside of a flash back. Even Shun Yu from Mulan counts as a villain of honor to some extent. When he sees Mulan he says( the soldier from the mountains). He called Mulan soldier, not girl. In a movie where women are treated horribly, yet Shun Yu who was about to kill the emperor doesn't disrespect Mulan and acknowledges that she killed about half he's army.

[@killerhellhound]

@@orangeslash1667 In the mongol's there were no gender bias if you could kill and keep up you could be a solider its a nice nod to historical fact that he doesnt make a deal of her birth but instead her actions

[@gamerkingdom1442]

Treasure Planet really deserves more respect, it’s such a good movie. SILVER is one of the highlights!

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, it is better than some give it credit for.

[@RikouHogashi]

AND Treasure Island as a whole

[@dontcallmewave]

I never saw Silver as a villain. He was closer to a co-protagonist with Jimbo. The movie is just as much about his character arc as much as Jim’s. Maybe even more.

[@moviemadness2536]

That really speaks to how good of a job the writers did at making him sympathetic. Because in many ways, it is pretty hard to view him as a villain.

[@heroesoftomorrow3488]

I'd say he is a villain protagonist: he is a bad guy yes, but one of the main characters the narrative revolve around, alongside Jim, and even wins the sympathy of the audience even before he stops being a villain altogether

[@scottriddell3514]

It’s so interesting that every Disney movie doesn’t have a villain every step of the way. The movies that came out in the 2000s did have some okay villains but brother bear was one movie by Disney that never even had a villain witch was a surprise to me

[@AshePBlack]

Yea but that one was impactful big time, i mean if I want important life lessons I don't need to run to Disney but like as I remember he wanted to kill the bear because it killed his bro, but then where would violence end because that bear was a mom, his last bro almost wanted to kill him in revenge thinking two bros were dead and in someways not that I need Disney to tell me this one but animals are better/ more innocent than ppl

[@EditDeath]

The point of Callahan isn't to be sympathetic, he's Hiro's dark mirror. They both lose loved ones and turn to vengeance as a response, but because Hiro saw where that path took Callahan, he was able to take his own life a different direction. It's why we don't see Callahan's joy when his daughter is brought back, only a sense of utter defeat

[@moviemadness2536]

Disney clearly wanted the audience to feel sorry for him. I'm sorry, maybe he does work as a dark reflection of Hiro, but he still has to be one of the worst villains in Disney history.

[@frazonedracaoo6981]

​@@moviemadness2536Callahan's story is a tragedy. The story of a good man corrupted by hatred. They don't rescue his daughter at the end just for the warm feelings, they don't to hammer home just how wrong Callahan was, because rescuing her laid out the perfect alternate scenario. Callahan got the portal started again, and the two brother made the perfect rescue team in a rapidly self assembling structure and an autonomous medic bot. The theory behind the movie is solid, execution was very bad. A note from your video and having Callahan be actually remorseful over the brother's death might have helped.

[@zillagrilla315]

@@frazonedracaoo6981 Agreed, heck the fire that killed Tadashi could have been complete accident or Callahan saw a suspicious person (who he believed worked for Alistair Krei) trying steal the nanobots and tried to stop it. Leading to the fire where Callahan escaped thanks to Tadashi sacrificing himself to save him leading him into a downward spiral of guilt and hatred. Another youth who had so much potential died because of greed no more.

[@tjones9097]

@@moviemadness2536I still think Hans will always be the worst villain. After trying to capture Elsa alive for half of the movie, he suddenly wants to kill her. And killing Elsa and Anna wouldn’t even let him be king. Their close relatives would be first in line for the throne.

[@greenskull3384]

I think you're right on the money. I've always thought that silver was what Jim would've become without a father figure. As for Scroop, while he is undoubtedly an irretrievable, homicidal sociopath; I've always found him potentially sympathetic, and possibly representing a worst case scenario for Jim's future. If you think about it, all his evil traits; anger, impulsivity, vindictiveness, petulance and contempt; are very teenage qualities, and arguably extreme exaggerations of where Jim's at early on in the movie. You could even argue that Jim's defeat of Scroop was symbolic of him killing off the darker side of himself. Or maybe I'm reaching.

[@phillipwalling7470]

I've watched Treasure Planet many times since I was a kid and I never thought of that. Scroop serving as a dark reflection of Jim would be interesting. Also, besides Jim and Silver, Scroop is just as memorable, and I feel he should've had more scenes.

[@moviemadness2536]

@greenskull3384 I don't know, that sounded pretty good to me.

[@greenskull3384]

​@@moviemadness2536Glad someone else thinks so. It's crazy how underrated and under analyzed this movie is.

[@greenskull3384]

​@@phillipwalling7470He might not have gotten a lot of scenes, but he definitely made the most of them.

[@MrGabeanator]

next to Tim Curry in Muppet Treasure Island this is probably my favorite interpretation of the character of long John Silver Brian Doyle Murray was brilliant as the voice and Glen Keane did some of the best animation he's ever done working at Disney and that's saying something

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, it really was a well done movie, and Silver a particularly well done character all around. Slight correction, though: Silver was voiced by Brian Murray, who died in 2018. Brian Doyle Murray is not only still alive, but voices The Flying Dutchman on Spongebob.

[@MrGabeanator]

@@moviemadness2536 you sure about that

[@moviemadness2536]

@@MrGabeanator Yeah, I'm positive. You can look it up if you don't believe me.

[@MrGabeanator]

@@moviemadness2536 ok you win

[@orangeslash1667]

@@MrGabeanator Sad news Brian Murray is dead now.

[@A.B.-ub9un]

I have no problem with sympathetic antagonists as a concept, since it has been done really well in the past, i.e., Batman the animated series and Spectacular Spider-Man. My problem is the constant need to force villains to be sympathetic for the sake of "moral greyness" despite how they still don't show any real signs of being morally grey since the good guys always win anyways and the status quo is always maintained. The common justification is that it allows the audience to think or generally show more empathy, but idk about that.

[@lauraw2526]

Yeah, I don't think it builds empathy. At best it's confusing, at worst it ends up feeling like it's justifying bad behavior or bad morals. Villains should only be sympathetic, imo, if there is a plan to redeem them later - and make it clear that they are redeemable, and that they work for it.

[@moviemadness2536]

@A.B.-ub9un Yeah, I completely agree with you there. I even did a whole separate video explaining why too much "grey morality" in movies is actually a bad thing.

[@A.B.-ub9un]

@@moviemadness2536 To me, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, since I can count several movies and shows and games where antagonists weren't necessarily villains, and some beloved villains with sympathetic origin stories. My issue is the way how it's done in modern media where people try using the whole "It's supposed to show that even though you can understand their motives, you can disagree with their actions" as a excuse. Most of the time, it's just used to promote the establishment and the status quo, depicting the villains as victims of discrimination or oppression or some kind of past trauma.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

@moviemadness2536, something else that bothers me is this current trend across many fandoms making the heroes the villains and the villains heroes.

[@moviemadness2536]

@@keithtorgersen9664 That's definitely a problem as well. I'm actually going to do a video on that at some point.

[@goobytime]

Fox and the Hound did a fantastic job with sympathetic villain. It was their very first anti villain. A guy who’s morality can best be defined as a dark grey. He does bad things but the audience can understand why he does them. The last act has his motives being grief over the severe injury of his beloved hound. Its implied he will eventually redeem himself and be a better person in the ending.

[@moviemadness2536]

That is true, but I don't really know how much Amos Slade can be considered a villain. I was always one of those people who saw the Bear as the true villain. But, you don't have to agree with that, obviously.

[@redgunnit]

I will never forgive Disney for intentionally setting this movie up to flop so they wouldn't have to make the already completely planned out sequel. This movie was a big part of my childhood and many others. Ill never forget seeing the zoom in on the moonport in the trailer the first time. And I will never forgive Disney for killing this movie in it's crib.

[@moviemadness2536]

I don't know if they WANTED it to flop necessarily, especially considering they put almost $200 million into the movie that they obviously would want to make back, but I do think their apathy for it didn't do it any favors.

[@redgunnit]

@@moviemadness2536 Check out the TP video by Breadsword. He goes into the history of the movie's development. Disney Execs tried to stop this movie from being made every step of the way, released it around the same time as Harry Potter: Chamber of Secrets and The Santa Clause 2, and the trailers gave a false impression of the film while spoiling crucial scenes. This is after the creators had been trying to get the film made for the better part of a decade. At that point, it seems they hated how much the movie cost to make, didn't want to make it in the first place, and DEFINITELY didn't want to give them a sequel. Disney Execs didn't have apathy towards the film, they had antipathy. It should be noted, TP made $109 mil at the box office releasing in Nov of that year after Lilo and Stitch came out in June and made 279 million along with a dozen smaller films. Disney was not hurting for money and could afford a bump to prevent future "wasteful spending" in their eyes.

[@matityaloran9157]

2:35, especially considering that Scroop killed Arrow against Silver’s orders

[@moviemadness2536]

Exactly.

[@RedneckRapture]

Agree except for one thing. The bad guy in the Fox and the Hound was someone who you could sympathize with and who earned redemption.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, but I don't know how much Amos Slade is really supposed to be a villain. Silver is a bit more clear cut, as well as has more focus.

[@RedneckRapture]

@@moviemadness2536 That's what makes Amos such a good villain. He didn't start as one, he simply became one through events that anyone can relate to, and then pulled back from that path at the end. I've seen him described as an antivillain though, I will give you that.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

I don't mind sympathetic villains. The problem for me is when the redemption comes too easily. A villain being sympathetic doesn't mean that they have to have a redemption arc, and understanding their motive and where they're coming from doesn't have to mean what they do is justified or even forgivable.

[@moviemadness2536]

Exactly. That's exactly the problem. Just because a character has understandable REASONS for doing something doesn't automatically mean they can be redeemed.

[@ryanhillbom792]

The reason why it works is because they made it practically 1 to 1 with it's Source material Treasure Island but made it in space and made a couple changes and gender swaps, but the main dynamic between jim and silver is relatively unchanged, so the guy who made Treasure Island is the best at making sympathetic villains and Disney just copied his homework 😅

[@moviemadness2536]

The dynamic between Jim and Silver was a lot more hostile in the book after his true colors are revealed. Jim in narration at the end even says he was glad Silver escaped so he could be rid of him sooner. The writers definitely left their own thumbprint on their version of the story.

[@ryanhillbom792]

@@moviemadness2536 your right it's also been a while since I've read the book so I forget that it wasn't a one 2 one exactly 🤔, sorry about that 😅

[@kooger888]

This movie deserves far more attention.

[@rosykindbunny1313]

Best Disney villain, no contest

[@RikouHogashi]

""Villain""

[@Anonymous-ub9oi]

Treasure planet was an underrated gem, a great movie that came out at the wrong time.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah. It's unfortunate.

[@bigcammy007]

Treasure Planet truly was ahead of it's time and even though it's an underrated gem nowadays, I still say it's my personal favorite underrated gem along with Emperor's New Groove.

[@moviemadness2536]

There's a few Disney movies out there that don't get the credit they deserve. But that's what happens when you've made as many great movies as Disney.

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

A man who saw a boy lost at sea and decided to give him a boat, a sail, a crisp wind, and a shining star to sail by. He may have been a villain but he wasn't a bad guy and in the end was the father a young man needed most.

[@moviemadness2536]

👏

[@mr.end-game711]

He was part of the destitution of Jim's home, outside of that he only performs vile acts only if he feels it warranted. It's a case of pragmatic villainy vs chaotic evil. Silver leads because he has a level head, smooth tongue and plain skills. Scroop was never going to be the big villain, he was just a thug.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, that pretty much sums up his and Scroop's dynamic. Doesn't stop Scroop from trying to take control, though.

[@serteshsardrakal2272]

I think one of the best villains i ever saw portrayed in a book were a group called the sword of courage from failure frame. Their introduced as a loving family of adventurers and within a chapter that wholesome intro is ruined as they turn completely sadistic beating a non-human they have in their party and it describes how they constantly torture and abuse the party member truly believing what they do is justified and done out of love and compassion. Despite the sheer level of evil their committing the idea its even wrong is incomprehensible to them. They hate non-humans with such a passion have a line of logic behind it and so fervently believe what their doing is right. So much so that the idea of a human helping a non-human leaves them confused and frustrated. They die pretty quickly which is a shame since they were very well written.

[@LizzyBestTv]

That's a good video, it deserves more attention

[@moviemadness2536]

Thank you very much. I'm really happy to hear you enjoyed the video so much.

[@Cattensu]

I never really thought Big Hreo 6 was trying to make Callahan as a synthetic villain. They where just showing what lead him to his villainy. He is also a reflection of Hrio, and what he could become if he didn't fall back on his brothers lessons, and spirit. Callahan wasn't trying to get his daughter back with the gates at the end, just destroy the life of the man he blamed for her death. He went to jail without even being able to see his daughter after Hiro and Baymax saved her. And the did not save her for him, they save her because it was the right thing to do. Because "someone has to help" As far as Namaari goes. They should have show her mother more as she is clearly ment to be the true "villain" of the story, at least human wise. The actual villain of the Raya and the Last Dragon is discord, and lack of trust. Which is why in the end Raya has to let go of her distrust and put her faith in the one that hurt her, and so helped break the world. She had to fallow her father, and Sisu teachings. I don't think the pieces of the Dragon Jewel would have worked if just put together by Raya. That doesn't make Namaari a sympathic villain. But shows that redemption is possible for those that try. Also what horrible things dose Namaari actually do in the movie? She followed her mother's plan to steal the jewel. And she went after Raya after she stool the scroll. Which led to her mom sending her out to track Raya again to steal the other pieces from her. And then following her mother's orders again, starts to double crosses Raya, which leaded to Raya being twitching and jumping the gun, which is what leads to Sisu getting shot. So again, as a human villain it is Namaari's mom that is the villain, not Namaari.

[@2Schway4u]

It's good to see the post Disney Renaissance/post Shrek movies getting the love they deserved.

[@MythicalPhoenixHeart]

I know it rather late to comment this but I've always seen Disney's Treasure Planet as a father's day movie, when you compared Jim's father to John Sliver, and how they can represent ways a father can be good and bad example.

[@moviemadness2536]

I can see that. The theme of fatherhood is very strong in this movie.

[@Traffydrhart]

Loved the video! But it did sound like you were yelling from across the room. But still great analysis

[@moviemadness2536]

Sorry about that, I know my voice doesn't sound the greatest in these videos. But I'm happy you were able to enjoy the video regardless of that.

[@biancagrottolo]

Believe it or not, when I ever saw the movie, at that time, I knew about Treasure Island book. I was gonna read it eventually by first watch the movie. And honestly, silver hitch. All good marks. He has great character. He should have compassion, even though he had to hide it and push it down in his soul when he had to get interactions with his crew. But he showed the most kindness and positive way around him. So in Jim that he could be, he could buy people who he could trust. And in the end, silver sacrifice, the treasure, the save Jim to basically this. was a wonderful film. There was gonna be a sequel. And we're gonna see more of silver, but it never happened.

[@moviemadness2536]

Good analysis there. And yeah, the fact that it never got a sequel is unfortunate.

[@matityaloran9157]

5:04, the ABC television series Once Upon a Time had a problem like that. It gave classic fairy tale villains dark tragic backstories to make them sympathetic but still had them do the evil things they did in the original stories (and then some) so ,with one exception, their efforts at redeeming the character fell very flat

[@moviemadness2536]

This seems to be a concept that Disney just can't get a handle on. Though given they're famous for their pure evil villains, maybe that's not so surprising...

[@amberbradshaw1461]

It wasn't just the villains who did wrong in that show. The heroes did some bad things too. For example: snow white and prince charming stole Maleficent's baby to put Emma's 'dark' side into it

[@matityaloran9157]

@@amberbradshaw1461 That was also a flaw of the show

[@AlizelAwakened]

The world owns an apology for this masterpiece of a movie.

[@for_the_lore5567]

Everyone sleeps on the hunter from Bambi, hands down the most relatable Disney villain.

[@ryohoshi8445]

I'm not actually certain that Callahan was supposed to be a sympathetic villain as much as a dark mirror of Hiro -- that we ultimately weren't supposed to want him redeemed, and on rewatching I feel there was a lot that could have been done better but they also were having to fight with upper management. (By the time they were done, there was only one thing he could have really done to earn redemption and Disney wasn't going to let him do it, even though I suspect the writers had been hinting that he'd actually be pretty okay exiting that way. Might even at that point have echoed what he said about Tadashi while he was on his way out the door himself.)

[@LetMeFLY649]

i mean, callahan is kind of more sympathetic, (up until he said he didn't care for tadashi's death, but then again), he (pressumably) lost his daughter due to krei's insistent persistence. was it an accident? yes. could anyone really have predicted it to happen? no, not really. but does any of that dampen the blow of his child (presumptive) death? no.

[@moviemadness2536]

Does it justify the lengths he goes to over it? No.

[@LetMeFLY649]

@@moviemadness2536 no, not really, there isn't much yapping that can be done to justify the lengths callahan went to. however we have something somewhat tangentially reasonable to (an extent at least) sympathize with. my argument isn't really in defense of his actions, but more so one in regards to his character. he doesn't make a good twist villain, however what it does do is make his motivations understandable to an extent.

[@typemasters2871]

I might be going full on tinfoil hat conspiracy but what if one of the reasons that Disney is trying to do sympathetic villains is because some of the higher-ups find themselves relating to some of Disney’s past villains and instead of reflecting on why, they instead want to make villains sympathetic as a way of telling themselves that they aren’t villainous people Of course this is nothing but tinfoil hat speculation

[@SiggiHar]

Well, at this point the tinfoil hat is really not needed.

[@kirkdarling4120]

They are simply amoral themselves and can't tell the difference, except that the villain is generally a more interesting character.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

@@kirkdarling4120 Unlike reality.

[@theotherjared9824]

This is more of the original story not being ruined. Long John Silver was never evil, he just was willing to do anything to achieve his goal. He wanted to see Hawkins succeed and be the man he could never be, but had to step in when his mission was being compromised.

[@moviemadness2536]

It definitely has shades of that, yes.

[@JackSpike16]

One of the best sympathetic villains, and his movie was considered a flop. Personally, I think it's an amazing movie.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, it is pretty good. It's a shame it did so bad.

[@devingendron2287]

I still remember my reaction to the scene in Raya and the Last Dragon you opened with of "Is this story only continuing past this point because a trained warrior and officer had bad trigger discipline?" Rule 1: Never point a weapon at something you don't intend to shoot Rule 2: Finger stays off the trigger until you are about to shoot.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, that whole movie was completely screwed up.

[@FlashFyreProductions]

I do think there's one other sympathetic villain that Disney got right...however...that's because he was a villain protagonist. It's Kuzco. They nailed that redemption arc.

[@hiddendesire3076]

Would also say Krunk, but lets be honest, he was never a villain. Krunk’s a good boy.

[@moviemadness2536]

@NEWahn I actually did a whole separate video on that. The main difference is that it's clear from the start that not only is he the main character, but will eventually be redeemed. With Silver it's much more of a toss up, even if you've read the original book. Because there are certain points where it looks like he may just become the villain.

[@MercyMorgan-r4u]

In my opinion, Callahan isn’t a sympathetic villain. He’s an anecdote for Hiro to demonstrate how revenge is never justified, and how it only leads to a deeper spiral into darkness. Callahan needs to contrast with Hiro in his decision to pursue revenge as a way to deal with his grief to reveal to Hiro that to deal with Tedashi’s death, he must honor his life. Callahan doesn’t really have any redeemable qualities; he’s forsaken them for his revenge.

[@Asin24]

Sympathetic villains are great but they absolutely have to be done right which is hard. It's much easier to go with a simply evil character.

[@moviemadness2536]

And a lot of the time, simply evil villains are just better. Though as I've said, there's also a time and place for more sympathetic villains.

[@LCCWPresents]

The experimental age is the height of Disney animated creativity (coming off the coat strings of the renaissance that made Disney animation popular again.).

[@sevenlexar]

One thing I always thought would have fixed Raya a bit was to change it so that Namaari was being used by her mother. AKA; Namaari DOESNT betray her in the beginning, but is, instead, followed by her mother and painted as being a traitor via 'you found the stone for us, good girl' etc, etc. She then spends the rest of the movie trying to fix her mistake, BUT, Raya refuses to trust her, refuses to listen, and every time she does that things get worse - thus making the moment where she finally decides to trust Namaari actually have some weight behind it. You can have your sympathetic villain without painting a horrendous message of enduring any amount of otherwise unforgivable betrayal for the sake of being nice to people.

[@moviemadness2536]

You know something? That would've actually made the movie SO much better.

[@benjaminsimons8263]

While I agree with you on most points, I will have to say that I don't believe Callahan fits the bill of a "Disney sympathetic villain." Sure, his motivation isn't money and/or fame, but they don't try to make him out as "actually a good guy." He never joins the heroes, they don't take his side, and he actually faces legal retribution for what he did.

[@moviemadness2536]

The narrative wants you to feel sorry for him. Even if it doesn't say he was right, they want him to be sympathetic. But he isn't.

[@santiagoarrieta2175]

Itself the movie is writen in a way that Silver is show that he can be a "functional member of society". Someone you want to redeem because he can be much more than a criminal, and really has some redeemable traits that are partially eclipsed by the bad ones. But the key point is that is not a characther that only cause suffering, not only he cares for someone even when there are in total opposition(thing that only made thing harder for himself) but he has limits, he has a morality at least from a utilitary point of view, Scrub killing the first mate was not only low, was stupid and counterproducent for they objective, 1 man more don't make a difference in a ambush but being in alert does. The truth is he is not a lost cause.

[@moviemadness2536]

Great analysis there.

[@santiagoarrieta2175]

@@moviemadness2536 it's pretty interesting how the main antagonist fill the role of the "Mentor", while the other main "good" characters are ina distance from Jimbo. The Captain and fist make, are impressed by his guts but don't trust him, and use him to set a example of authority between their crew instead of try to gain his trust, which heavily backfire, because all could be prevented if they at least maintain him close. And the professor simply is socially anward and don't have anything Jim is interested to learn. The Capitan growth close to the professor because after the first mate die she realized there is a traitor and he is the only one she has at arm length and is sure didn't do it.

[@thorveim1174]

As an added little thing, one could say Silver isnt completely redeemed as he decides to remain a pirate instead of facing the consequences of his actions. But there is the video game that is as close to a sequel as we will ever get... And its at the end that John Silver truely redeems himself fully, not only by raiding an invading force, but also for in the end giving up his life to save Jim's ship and the queen, having his crimes posthumously pardoned and him even being knighted... If he indeed died, which Jim doubts because it wouldnt be like him to not have prepared an exit door.

[@moviemadness2536]

Well, I did say he only earns redemption in the eyes of Jim. And the audience by proxy.

[@omega-random-fandom-channel]

Treasure planet is one of the greatest movie made in the 2000nds it's just as good as the original little mermaid movie

[@arnequis]

My favorite Disney redeemable villain is Dr. Doofenshmirtz. Yeah, he got his start in TV, but he HAS been in two feature-length films, so that counts for me.

[@moviemadness2536]

He's not from the Disney Animated Canon, so he couldn't count for this video. Still, I see what you're saying.

[@PuppetMasteronVHS]

In a modern Disney Movie, Scroop would be the one that gets magically redeemed all because Long John Silver was rough to him and somehow that’s why he was so evil.

[@moviemadness2536]

At this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that did happen.

[@impy2d843]

Villains like John Silver are rare, and the movie was gonna get a sequel as well but there were cut backs.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, it's all really a shame.

[@vedritmathias9193]

I think Disney - and a lot of viewers - forget that there's a literary difference between a villain and an antagonist. A character *can* be both a villain and the antagonist, but not necessarily. A good antagonist is sympathetic. A good villain is evil. (at least, in my opinion)

[@moviemadness2536]

That is also true. Though in my opinion, it's best when the antagonist and the villain are the same.

[@LCCWPresents]

It’s also the one film the good writer/animator got to do their film their way at the cost of the studio trying there hardest to destroy the film because the technology involved in making the film was deemed too expensive.

[@KL-ed4fq]

I love LJS and their unlimited shrimp

[@ethanspaziani1070]

Disney does not deserve a goddamn oz of credit for treasure planet they did their best to kill it along with Titan AE

[@moviemadness2536]

Titan AE wasn't released by Disney. It was released by Fox, long before Disney bought them.

[@ethanspaziani1070]

@@moviemadness2536 eh same ol same il

[@nword9239]

Treasure Planet was the GOOOOOOAT!!!

[@dominiccassell1266]

From all the Disney movies, I've watched the best duo that I like is silver and Jim with a close second of Osmosis Jones and the cold pill guy I don't remember his name

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, Jim and Silver do make a good duo.

[@samuelwoolwineiv7886]

Drix

[@CesarACastillo]

Losto's backstory is truly heartbreaking. Abandoned by a child, he was left to fend for himself in a world that didn't want him. It's easy to empathize with his actions when considering the pain and loneliness he must have felt. Professor Callaghan lost his daughter to a greedy CEO who failed to see the potential dangers of his experimental teleportation technology. The tragic loss of his daughter led him to seek retribution, resulting in a clash of egos that had devastating consequences for both parties involved. Shere Khan's desire to kill Mowgli stems from a traumatic experience with humans. His actions, while ruthless, can be seen as an attempt to protect the jungle from potential harm. In his own way, Shere Khan becomes a complex and tragic hero, driven by his past experiences and a desire to maintain the balance of nature. It is rumored that Captain Hook was once one of Peter's Lost Boys, but managed to escape the fate that befalls the others. His relentless pursuit of Peter and his protective nature towards Wendy and her brothers reveal a deeper layer to his character, positioning him as a figure who is both villainous and tragic. Syndrome's transformation into a villain was fueled by the crushing of his dreams by his idol Mr. Incredible. His intelligence and ambition led him down a path of revenge, culminating in a tragic downfall. Despite having the potential for a fulfilling life, his obsession with vengeance ultimately led to his own destruction. I can safely say there are more sympathetic villains in the Disney movie verse than just Long John Silver.

[@ncr_ranger96]

Syndrome is not sympathetic at all. His dreams weren't crushed by Mr. Incredible. If anything, he's pathetic in the way he makes everything about himself. Just look at his flashback to the "Go home, Buddy" scene. It shows Mr. Incredible looking down at him in an almost hostile manner when he was actually dismissive at worst (after having to save Buddy from himself). Plus, there's also the element that's missing from the flashback. There is no Bomb Voyage being restrained by Mr. Incredible. It is just the two of them with zero context.

[@travisgravelle7687]

Tressure Planet was such a good movie. A shame it got piegon holed. IMHO; all the main characters were done well. Plus i think Capt Amelia had just as much influence on Jim as Silver did. Literally two halves of the same coin.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, it was done better than most give it credit for.

[@rileygarraway87]

Agreed 💯 percent about treasure planet villain that villain john silver does stand out

[@smoldragon339]

I think part of the problem is Disney seems to be afraid to even HAVE super evil, full-on villains anymore. So they can't put a Scroop-lik character in the movie for their sympathetic villain to be compared to, because then they'd have a full-on villain in the movie.

[@moviemadness2536]

Good observation. Disney refuses to embrace what they're known for, and that's a problem.

[@victorhernandez8723]

I really miss the good old days!

[@moviemadness2536]

@@victorhernandez8723 So do I.

[@amberbradshaw1461]

Silver is my favorite villain 😊

[@1q2w3e4r404]

Treasure Planet is one of those films you hope will get a second movie.

[@moviemadness2536]

Unfortunately, I don't think it will at this point.

[@fidgetelftree9432]

Spoilers for Avatar the Last Airbender below: Talking about wanting to root for a characters good side to shine through and win over the evil/bad side makes me think of just how well done Zuko’s story was. From Episode 3 onwards we’re rooting for him to eventually turn to the side of the good guys or at least get some kind of happy ending. But… it seems at first that in order for him to have a happy ending, Aang (and by extension the rest of the world besides the Fire Nation) has to have a tragic one. It’s a great dynamic, and the more we learn about him the more we’re conflicted. By the end of the first episode of the Season 1 finale, we’re torn between being happy at Zuko’s partial success and being horrified for what this means for the Northern Water Tribe. We see Zuko do all kinds of different things ranging from selfish to selfless. You can see him balancing on a knife’s edge, and the tension comes from not knowing which side he’ll land on. There are also characters that plays a similar purpose to Scroop, making him seem more redeemable in comparison. Admiral Zhao in Season 1, Azula in Seasons 2 & 3, and Firelord Ozai overall. But the thing that really drove it from good to great is the finale of Season 2, and the consequences of that. Zuko’s redemption was truly fought for and earned. They took it slow enough, and with enough backsliding, that it never felt like it was handed to him by the writers because it was a forgone conclusion. Even his relationship with the other characters took genuine time to change. It was so well paced, and the episodic nature of Avatar made everything hit harder, since they could really take their time.

[@michaelhall736]

I think Anastasia one of Cinderella's stepsisters had a great redemption arc in Cinderella 2.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, she was one of Disney's better attempts at a villain earning redemption. But unfortunately, that's not a part of the official Disney Animated Canon.

[@michaelhall736]

@moviemadness2536 True, but it's something I thought was awesome to see.

[@starkilr101]

One of the best Disney movies. Hands down.

[@nicolausg7058]

Shame that Disney's company hated the movie. Old Walt was probably turning in his grave so much, that Disney provided at least 60% of energetic needs of thestate of Florida. The combination of 2d and 3d was so good, that it is amazing how niwdays we can't do that stuff good anymore.

[@TheMasterofMasters1]

I Never Came From A Book And Yet People Still Say I'm Sora's Father.

[@Rievven]

If there is nothing to a villain but evil, then there is no thesis for the hero to embody as the antithesis is just "evil." Yes it can be exciting but then your villain might as well be a natural disaster.

[@moviemadness2536]

There's a world of difference between a villain and a natural disaster.

[@kirkdarling4120]

I think the word "sympathetic" is wrongly used. A villain can and should be _well-motivated._ We can and should be able to agree to the reasonableness of the villain's attitude, but totally disagree with their methods. The Disney MCU villain Magneto is the reference example here.

[@moviemadness2536]

I simply mean it in the context that it's easy to feel sorry for him. A villain can have a great motivation and still be nothing but totally hate-able. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[@blackmagician7645]

I mean. Iago also got a redemption in Aladdin 2.😅

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, but he was never the main villain, and that's not from a movie in the Disney Animated Canon. Though granted, his redemption was still done WAY better than any of the villains I mentioned in the video.

[@elocfreidon]

Disney isn't going to look at Treasure Planet for good elements in a movie. After what they did to use it as a fall guy for the 2D era.

[@moviemadness2536]

Well, I said they should, that doesn't mean they're going to.

[@KelanRooks]

Perfect example.

[@DeoxysPrime300]

It’s like Thor and Odin from god of war ragarok.

[@brianmegaman]

Yes i totally agree with you. I don’t even think he has killed anyone. Even though they say he has.I think scoop his right hand man is behind all of the killings. Also I think long John silver gets mad at scoop every time he kills somebody. I am going to say this 100% i don’t even think that long John silver has killed anyone. but he could if wanted to he uses fear and intimidation to show he is serious but deep down he is probably gentle giant. Also might be why his own crew respect him.Also why Scoop dose not. He probably could kill Scoop if wanted to. But he was planning on someone else to do it. He probably wanted jim to do it and probably was happy that he killed scoop because scoop he has killed many people. Long John silver is probably nothing but a thief who loves adventure and probably he and his crew except scoop probably only stole and did not kill anyone.Long John silver and his crew probably only stole treasure. While scoop on the other hand probably killed people with out long John silver knowing. As far as I can see he is a villain who could get redemption and deserves it

[@Klesner16]

What about Zarina from the pirate fairy? she was a villain but then turned good

[@moviemadness2536]

I'm only referring to villains from the official Disney animated canon. Besides, if you want to talk about the Tinkerbell movies, I already did a video on why Nyx the scout fairy is a great sympathetic villain.

[@Klesner16]

Can you please give the link ?

[@moviemadness2536]

@@Klesner16 Here it is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZ3PdJtqbs9ol7s

[@Klesner16]

@@moviemadness2536 thanks

[@blakerenimu9033]

Our Queen Maleficent acted in fairness, imo (jk)

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, if there's one Disney villain that isn't justified in her actions, it's her. (Among many others, let's face it, but she has to be one of the most petty.)

[@kesselrunner]

I really kind of hate the modern villain trope of reducing their entire M.O. to simple murder. Take Kylo Ren from the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. His main personality trait was "all old guys must die". Pointless waste of a character.

[@moviemadness2536]

There's definitely a problem with modern villains, there's no doubt about that.

[@zebramussels141]

Does Maui from Moana count as a sympathetic villain?

[@moviemadness2536]

No, Maui is not a villain.

[@RikouHogashi]

I simple Can't Hate Long John Silver in any iteration of Treasure Island and Planet is no different like when we think about who is the Original Face of the Pirate Genre it's SILVER not Blackbeard, not Jack Sparrow, and defiantly not Monkey D. Luffy (Luffy is more like an Ambitious Jim anyways)

[@moviemadness2536]

That is true. Many pirate stereotypes we know and love today come from Long John Silver.

[@NeoCreo1]

God, they fucked up the dragon movie so bad. Honestly, it’s to the point that I’m 99% sure they changed the script at the last minute, because the movie was very clearly going for a message that you should be willing to forgive, but you must not be foolish and allow others to manipulate you, and that some people do not deserve forgiveness.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, they really dropped the ball on that one. I even did a whole separate video where I rant and rave about everything they got wrong.

[@Yellowguy0619]

So no one is gonna talk about Amos Slade... got it.

[@moviemadness2536]

Trust me, quite a few people in this comment second have.

[@bluepeach5010]

Is anyone else not getting sound??

[@charlesfarmer5250]

Honestly, yes John silver is done right. Every other villain in now times are just bad. And why Just, Why!?

[@moviemadness2536]

That's a topic I've discussed many times before. And I don't know. I just don't know.

[@mobbs6426]

Too bad there was a silly annoying robot in the final 3rd. Could have gotten a Disney show sequel series

[@moviemadness2536]

I agree, it should've gotten the sequel they were planning on giving it.

[@LCCWPresents]

Treasure planet took a decent source material and wrote it better.

[@moviemadness2536]

Or differently. But nonetheless, it was a movie worth making.

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

Makes his literary counterpart look even worse by comparison!

[@moviemadness2536]

Yes, he does. The Silver in the book is way worse.

[@miggyboy3786]

Boy, do I hate Raya's villain.

[@moviemadness2536]

Yeah, Namaari may just be one of the worst villains Disney has ever made.

[@squallrowlandson8028]

I agree that John Silver and even Bowler Hat Guy are the only actual sympathetic bad guys to get redemption unlike Amos Slade (The Fox and the Hound) who is glorified unjustly as the "best anti-villain" while his crimes are ignored especially his crimes from the original novel in which everyone praises as "a misunderstood masterpiece like Moby Dick, Call of The Wild and the Belstone Fox" I see it more in common with Schindler's List, Come and See (1985) and Requiem for a Dream and an abomination of literature that glorifies fox hunting. For those reasons I see Slade as a total monster that escapes retribution in the novel and with only a broken leg in the film and he is my most loathed Disney villain of all time. Defend Slade, deny his crimes all you like and call me biased but I'm not going to change my strong opinions on Slade.

[@moviemadness2536]

Hey, you do you.

[@truekurayami]

I think all of us can agree Slade only broke his leg in the movie, is because it was Disney and the audience they were targeting. Now as far as his "crimes" we are missing so much context of the greater world in the movie that leaves it questionable if he is justified in his views towards foxes. One such detail is how detramental the Fox population is to the farms around the area. With the two bits of occupied land we get to see it doesn't see to be much of a problem but they can be at the edge of the Fox territory that saves them from most of the problems. Another detail we don't get to see is how Slade makes a living, and if he is making a living off of the pelts of animals like foxes, it becomes more reasonable for him to see less value in the life of a fox, even if it can feel just as scummy that he makes a living so highly focused on foxes for what we get to see. In short my point is with context we are left to fill in Slade can be a relatively decent guy with one bad trait being focused on, without context Slade was a vile person that deserved a lot worse than what he got.

[@squallrowlandson8028]

@@truekurayami 👉🙄👈

[@MinisterEvil]

You sound like you're being pegged.

[@moviemadness2536]

In the next life I'll make sure I have a voice like Frank Sinatra. Then I can sing my commentary. Look, I try my best. That's the voice I was born with, I can't change it.