The ORIGINS of the Parallel Twin

[@jamesrichards8142]

Kevin is such a pleasure to listen to after reading for all these years. Amazing knowledge he shares!

[@carolinemcnabb9957]

Can't get enough of Kevin Keep these coming

[@hbertolinih]

Kevin rocks!

[@phatsmitty]

Kevin and Mark - I read so much of your work from the good old days of printed CW.... So very nice that both of you are still in moto journalism!!! Great to see your faces and hear your voices. Same goes to John Burns, Nick Ienatsch, and Jimmy Lewis.

[@phatsmitty]

Evans Brasfield - we will forever miss you

[@JohnNewton-ev8ch]

And Peter Egan...

[@ORflycaster]

@@JohnNewton-ev8ch Absolutely! Peter's books help me get through the winter months.

[@korobuildschannel597]

Great work, always nice to hear Kevin's insights

[@johnl5974]

I was riding my Yamaha 650 Twin, my buddy a Honda v 4, we swapped bikes and shortly after swapped back - "if all motorcycles felt like that I wouldn't ride." I guess he'd never ridden an older air cooled Sportster either.

[@Robert-o5q5b]

Nothing beats the 360 degree sound. It is a thunderous rumble.

[@stephenbaron5681]

Back in the 76 I had a Honda CB750 after learning to ride on a Rickmen Royal Enfield 750 interceptor. I sold the Honda because of the buzzing and got a Norton Commando 850 MK3. Have loved the torque twins deliver for none racetrack use. I have 2 Nortons a BMW R1150 and Moto Guzzi 1200. I think I have the twin configuration covered. Great discussion.

[@pashakdescilly7517]

In the 1960s, Phil Vincent (co-designer of the famous Vincent V-twin and owner of that marque) proposed the use of a 72° crank in parallel twins. It aroused some interest but no-one actually tried it for a very long time. After experiment, it was found that 90° was better - unless you are KTM.

[@ztnaram240]

Thanks for a great video ,a minor caveat, i think Yamaha;s contribution was worth more than a single sentence. In my 65 years of riding, the TDM was the most reliable and fun to ride and good for 200k miles with minimal maintenance, glorious exhaust note with an aftermarket can.

[@iulian2548]

I second that, had an early nineties super Tenere. Great engine, very refined for its era.

[@CHRnorton]

A properly set up Commando is a thing of joy and is a great vintage racer. My CHR Commandos were ruling their class for many years at the old Bryer and NHIS tracks. The low 12 second 1/4 miles made them faster that the muscle cars of the day and the ability to blast down the short straight. A great many of the best racers in the country did very well on them and proved they did not call them Commandos for nothing.

[@glennmcgown5814]

Earliest iteration of p2 cylinders with 270 crank the TRX850 l think. Still the best sounding bike of all time IMO. Cheers

[@motocomconteudo497]

I could give a kidney for.work in cycle world with this level.of technical aimed dudes... Bravo Cheers from brazil

[@walterbrown8694]

When I lived in Japan - 1970 - 72, I bought my first bike, a 70 Honda 125. Great little bike - vertical twin - perfectly suited for Japanese street riding at that time.

[@wsbill14224]

I owned a typical parallel twin with a good frame, a 94 GS500. I made it run smooth as butter by adding one tooth to the front sprocket and getting the seat reupholstered with semi viscous polymer padding under the foam.

[@daveallen8824]

And so here I am looking for a pre 270 Bonneville...I guess I'm one of those 16 guys they made happy. There is no sound on earth better than a snarling, growling 360 twin - at least for me.

[@DwightHutto]

Yep, I'll keep my Norton, no 270 will ever sound as good as my Norton.

[@chrisfrank6449]

I recently came into possession of a 2007 Yamaha TDM 900. I've been blow away by how easy it is to ride. Heaps of Mid range power, very competent handling and relatively light. I've always been a sports bike guy but the TDM is a real eyeopener!

[@garethbull2226]

I have the TDM's brother, the TRX 850. The TDM started production in 1991 with a carburetted 850 twin engine with 5 gears. In 1995 Yamaha launched a sportier version, the TRX 850 (sold in Japan, Europe, Australia and New Zealand, but not North America), with the same engine as the TDM 850 (the engine changed to a 270 degree crankshaft). Yamaha stopped making the TRX in 2000, but the TDM stayed in production. In 2002 the engine was updated to 900cc with injection and 6 gears. Unfortunately the 900 engine does not fit into a TRX frame. I still have my TRX, it's the only bike I've ever owned where I thought "I really want to hang onto this and ride it again", but it's not in a rideable condition at the moment. I'll get it back on the road soon-ish as my "fun" bike and have something else as my daily hack.

[@LS-uv9gg]

The RD350LC and RZ350 engines shook like crazed paint shaker machines in the frames, but were isolated by linked rod mounts and isolating rubber bushings. To me at least, that sounds fairly "isolastic" lol. Yes, they were 180* I owned a couple of them, and a couple Honda CB400/450T's which had 360* cranks, but dual counter rotating balancers. Very smooth, great sounding. I always have hated 180* four stroke engine sound compared to the 270/360 jobs.

[@jeffsappington9704]

I have a '98 Honda VFR800FI that I really enjoy riding. Heli-bars help my wrists out and GIVI side cases and a top box allow me to bring along my "things". BTW, nothing says "old man" like a top box (68 here). This little 781cc Vee Four is a treat. Nice linear power band and an exhaust note that gives one the tingles! May I cue the vee four motor up as a possible future topic of discussion?

[@darreldanger7464]

These 2 guys have a great chemistry

[@geoffball9547]

As most street motorcycles are built down to a price yet are very good: Engine, Chassis, Brakes, geometry etc. The one weak link seems to be is the suspension, when improved it transforms the bike. Could be an interesting topic to explore.

[@micyclesport]

Can we please get Kevin's take on fort nines video on this 270 v 285 degree crank info. Also the Moore Mafia guys with there crazy drag race bikes technology compared to how things used to be. More Kevin Cameron!!!! Also get Peter Egan on one!!!

[@cathy5722]

I agree with what you said about Suzuki's new parallel twin engine. I've owned a 4 cylinder sport bike and thought that was the best engine until I tried a torquey twin and its fun factor at low and mid rpm.

[@Truetoo102]

I think parallel twins make the perfect motorcycle engine. It's has a perfect balance for the everyday rider.

[@CHRnorton]

And the Norton Commando perfected it, Power, speed and handling made the Norton a vintage race winner, when set up properly and ridden hard.

[@reubkam1043]

These conversations are my new favorite. I've read and re-read "Top Dead Center" many times, and now to listen in on these guys is perfect.

[@honda116969]

'19 CB500X parallel twin 180° crank... A lot of people talk shit about sound but it sounds fine to me & runs damn good! Love the parallel twin engine's

[@JohnNewton-ev8ch]

Kevin, will you please give us a deep dive on Honds's new e-clutch? Is this technology old (CT90, etc) Recluse or a real game changer? You are the man! Thank you,

[@posteroonie]

Much as I like the sound and vibration of various engines, I find that with a smooth and quiet (boring) engine I pay attention to the line, my shifting and braking, and the feel of the front tire. As a not-so-good rider I'm glad that there's always something elemental and tactile going on, even I imagine with electric motorcycles. Great engine sound and vibes (and wind noise) were enough sensory overload that my current "polite" bike has given me other aspects of riding to enjoy.

[@deiruch]

Interesting Topics: If you had to design an engine for your bike with unlimited resources, what would you pick? Talk about Allen Millyard and his bikes. c90adventures-style trips. What would you change in the 1300 engines if you worked at BMW. Or Indian. Or HD. Bike trips. First motorcycle experiences. Past stories/experiences. Predictions for 2030. Riding in Winter. Insights from recent visits Kevin did. And lots more :)

[@mjo4981]

I worked on the big three British twins in the early 70s and enjoyed all of them. The Triumph 750 twin was my favorite 500 mile service. But I never sat on a motorcycle that really vibrated until I raced a Kawasaki 750 triple in a 3-hour endurance race at Laconia. After my first practice, I pulled into the pits and asked the owner "how do you use the clutch, it vibrates so bad?" He answered, "oh I don't use the clutch..." It was a sweet running motorcycle, we finished third in our class. But oh my did it vibrate!

[@PulpComic]

Glad I found this series.

[@porkchop2723]

The 270 parallel twin provides the character and sound of a 90 degree L twin with much more compactness and manufacturing simplicity. And takes away the heat from rear cylinder from under your butt - win win

[@TheImtoomuch]

We've moved down to a parallel twins because they are cheaper for manufacturers. They are cheaper to design, R&D, manufacture and it can be used in multiple styles of bikes. But the engines aren't superior to triples and 4 cylinders or even some V-twins.

[@davidherringgo]

Thanks for covering these engines. My 21 BMW F750GS has this engine . Really has the get up and go I was looking for when traveling. Really nice bike. Thanks again for these discussions. Sure learned alot on the talk on tires.

[@upsidedowndog1256]

I am a fan of all bikes but my favorite 2 are sporting 90° V-twin Suzukis.

[@oldschoolmotorsickle]

My 2003 (first generation) Yamaha FZ1 uses 54 degrees of ignition advance. Blame the wide and thin combustion chamber necessitated by the dead-end five-valve design. Yamaha was so committed to the design that they stayed much too late at the party. Finally they fixed the five-valve’s drawbacks by throwing away one of the intake valves. Problem solved! Mr Cameron wrote about it in CW back then that with the five-valve design One could have acceleration or top-end power, but not both.

[@slacker2101]

What about the Scott, a water cooled, 2stroke, parallel twin which won an Isle of Man TT race before the 1st world war, and was in continuous production until the 1960s.

[@JoeStanek-vu7rl]

I believe than most if not all 2 stroke twins have 180deg cranks.

[@TXLorenzo]

You all are the best in moto knowledge!

[@longislandhillbilly4780]

Thanks for the knowledgeable discussion as always. I’m not a designer but my fantasy bike would be a Sport V-twin in the 500cc class, light weight with great adjustable suspension. Like a mini-Panigale but made by one of the Japanese manufacturers. Styling would be important.

[@jessrumblin]

Don’t you think the 270 crank gives you power like a v-twin (tractable power)?…

[@RONALD-oh1gr]

Yes. Uneven power pulses give the tire time to re-grip the surface. That's why Harley dominated flat track in the 70's and why the R1 is so special (crossplane crank).

[@TXLorenzo]

I own two parallel twins, a Yamaha T7 and a RE 650 SM. Both are great bikes.

[@bomberaustychunksbruv4119]

The British Buying Public liked the singles, they were traditional thumpers, Triumph made their twins look like the Singles for a reason, because the buyers wanted the looks of the singles still. Ed Turner made the twins 360 cranks because a 180 crank wont run well off of one carburettor. The Bonnies had twin carbs later and could have gone 180 crank but they resisted the change. When Ed Turner designed the Aerial Square 4 he missed a great opportunity to make a U engine with two 360 cranks turning in opposite directions, this engine design is PERFECTLY balanced in both primary AND secondary forces. But he made it two 180 cranks ?!?!?!?. Nuts.

[@JL-qe5gl]

The KTM parallel twin 790-990s seem to be a confirmation of the versatility that Kevin spoke of. The same basic engine in the Duke, Adventure, and now SMT (Super Moto Touring) work well in each application. Oh yeah and Bauman just won the Peoria TT on a KTM twin!

[@TheRealMaturecheese]

270 crank is more than just for sound, it gives more torque due to constantly moving pistons, i believe

[@joshgts9675]

Constantly moving pistons increases engine smoothness and the application of torque, but doesn't increase the torque itself. Any increases in torque would result from the fact 270 crank engines can be made larger due to reduced vibrations of the second order. I'm not an expert, but you can confirm this by comparing 180 and 270 degree engines of the same displacement.

[@metlmuncher]

My current scooter is a KTM 790 Duke and I must say that engine is the most fun of all. It’s just plain fun

[@Pompomgrenade]

If you ride a motorcycle wide open at all times you can always distinguish your target by muzzle flash😂 Kevin is a funny old bastard

[@outandaboutontherecumbents]

Loved my 83 XS650SK Yamaha twin. 80,000 miles in 8 years!

[@GiancarloBenzina]

1. Val page’s twin, edward turner came just after.

[@devious17]

thanks for the insight.

[@VincentComet-l8e]

That’s very enlightening on the current engine situation. I’ve been out of biking for well over a decade now, so as somebody who admired the packaging and looks of say, the Commando, Bonneville, Daytona etc (if not the day to day running practicalities) what would be recommendations for an agile, torquey general purpose modern twin?

[@howardspruit3994]

I been riding for 60+ years including Harleys a a dozen Hondas! For the last 4 years my favort ride is a 9 HP Honda Monkey!!!

[@HAL9000-su1mz]

The '87 Honda Hurricane 600 was an absolute trend setter. Try to find one, or any 600 since that is not trashed, thrashed or crashed.

[@josephreisinger33]

How about the history of the R5/RD 350? Were did it come from and were did it go. I miss it very much.

[@marcjorgensen]

Sigh.....I guess I am a dying breed in the minority.....miss the glory days of I4s, big Twins, high HP, high spec race replicas ruling the roads and showrooms. I just can't fall for all the parallel twin universal cost savings bikes thinly disguised as a sportbike/race bike. Old guys like me that want the most powerful high spec bikes from the factory I guess are being phased out. After all the manufacturers and the media drives what we buy and what we are told is "Good" It has never been about being able to ride a bike to it's potential, it is about having that potential there if we could.

[@yorkchris10]

I don't see many companies turning the head around, putting the inlet up front for more direct flow to chamber. Yamaha and BMW did it on singles, although Yamaha exhaust wrapped to the front.. I'm guessing heat in that area from a twin would be an issue.

[@PeacefulRallyCar-pw3cs]

Imho what killed triumph was vibration. You have to experience it to believe how bad it was. The sohc 750/4 was crazy smooth for not having balancers. The triumph was kick start but in power, build quality, and handling was as good as honda. BMW survived with an aircooled twin. The boxer configuration cancelled vibration. True, they had support of bmw car division.

[@WilliamRNicholsonLST-1195]

So what is your choice in the new parallel twins ? Nick , NavyBlueSmoke , LST-1195

[@rupertbollywood1190]

I don't know why the balancing problem wasn't solved much earlier in history. It's just phase cancellation, which has been known about for a very long time.

[@KrisWyman-s1b]

These talks are fantastic, thank you!! Is there any chance you could put these out in parallel (😊) to a pod catcher? It would be great to listen to these conversations on my R1150RT!

[@dogpaw775]

'refrigerator compressor' is a worse slight than 'lawnmower engine'.

[@RawdonMiddlebrook]

I plan buying a Honda Hornet 750 but what do you think about the Zontes GK350...mine has been thrashed and still gets good mileage and throttle response

[@wsbill14224]

The American riding public wants smaller motorcycles today because most are older or younger and broke and just want to ride and don't want to pay the big bucks for the big bike and the big bucks for insurance.

[@rearwheelslider]

The triple is the perfect balance. Triumph 1050 has it all.

[@MadChalet]

Interesting, as usual. I'm no engineer, and while I've dug into a motor or two, I don't completely have handle on strengths & weaknesses of different firing orders. That said, I've heard it said that tyhe 270˚, with it's pause between power pulses, can generate more traction. Maybe this is just theory, and not realized in actual riding?

[@adam346]

I will not hear blasphemy about the frunk! The frunk is a thing of beauty as well as practicality and no one can or will tarnish my personal positive feelings of the frunk! Also the NC750x is only good in manual and it is a tiny bit underpowered but come on... it has a frunk!!!

[@drgallup]

Surprised you didn't mention the KTM Duke series. They seem to be leading the way on parallel twins. Maybe cost more than the Japanese but much better hardware.

[@simonmears1726]

Love my big 1200 270degree motor nice note not too loud heaps of low end torque keep inline 4s which i also love honest 😅😅

[@markhall3434]

The Twins seem Thumpy.. whereas the 3 cylinder engines and above do not. With water cooling, the 3 cylinder fits easily within the frame. Four cylinder water cooled start to get wide, but screme.

[@browngreen933]

Two cylinders are enough.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

One's enough, two is a luxury. I've got two, by the way. I don't mind boasting, when I can.

[@julian5883]

Interesting that near the end you mention commuter and adventure bikes...but not sports tourers! Has the middleweight sports tourer died? Im considering scaling down from my Bandit 1250 (back injury doesnt like dealing with its weight, but its a fantastic bike!) and there doesnt seem to be much out there...perhaps manufacturers have some new models on the drawing board, or has the current vogue for "adventure" completely killed the smaller sports tourer? (A clean used BMW F800GT is probably what ill go for...) Interesting as ever chaps...

[@bikeaddictbp]

I've had F800GT/ST/R as hire bikes overseas several times - they've been my default choice. They're light, the steering is light and accurate, they're not too high (I dislike the GS variant that everyone else seems to adore) and they're remarkably thrifty even when beating on them in the Alps. The one downside ... the 360-degree parallel twin in those sounds awful! In addition to the firing-pattern situation, they always sound like they have a rod knock for the first second or two on start-up. I've had one F900XR hire bike last fall in Portugal, it's much more sophisticated and sounds better though I'm not sold on the XR variation - I'd probably pick the regular naked R version if there were a choice in the matter. BSB has a race series for them; they can be made to hustle ... Suspension work would be needed, but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

[@1998TDM]

Have to say, I agree.

[@wayneknodel3347]

Having ridden/owned/sold/raced (unsuccessfully!) motorcycles since the mid 60's, I believe the relatively recent move to twins was late arriving due to many motorcycle magazines and their journalists worshipping ONLY at the alter of ultimate power and race track performance. I personally quit buying magazines in the 1990's after inadvertently purchasing the same issue twice, since the covers of all magazines seem to only feature 2 or 3 sport bikes laid over in a corner with some hyperbolic headline about a "shootout". But I digress. The lack of attention to the the middle ground of motorcycles resulted in few, often low performing models with little attention paid to anything but price. And when some gleams of hope would appear, some lip service about great handling might be noted (eg Honda 650 Hawk), and then attention would be immediately diverted back to models carrying higher speed capability. Even when models arrived that made no pretense of being high performance, those were often dismissed out of hand, as did a former editor of Cycle World when confronted with the NT700, intimating it was an unlikeable, boring motorcycle for nerds. So finally, with the economic damage done in the early 2000's, serious attention is being paid to developing interesting, involving, capable, and approachable motorcycles with affordable price tags. I presently have a number of bikes, but the ones I ride the most are also ones that are easy and practical. ALL motorcycles are fun! For example, I have owned all the DCT equipped Hondas, but my NC750 comes closest to being perfect. I admit when I test rode it the first time (manual trans) I was underwhelmed. But living with the DCT on a long term basis, it hss become the go-to daily rider because of it's practicality, economy, real world power, light weight, versatility, and discovered it to be an engaging, real motorcycle. I'm glad I discovered the conversations you are having, as I have been a huge fan of Kevin's, and this may be one of few motorcycling "journals" I follow. Great job, fellas! Gotta go, my CB450K7 is waiting for it's freshly painted tank!

[@hughjanus3378]

I dunno if he is right about the heat loss of the twin v four cylinder based on the size of the radiator…. Similar side engine will have a similar thermal efficiency….but the heat rejected by a radiator is a function of the flow thru the radiator and the heat transfer coefficient…so two important parameters at play each of which will determine the size of the exchanger….

[@lateralus9244]

People are "voting" with their pocket books, only to the extent that there is not much in them anymore to buy the many of the 4 cylinders. Plus, motorcycles, along with everything else, have become so freaking expensive, So if more of the 4 cylinder bikes are sitting at dealerships unsold, manufacturers are going to come up with a much cheaper solution and then, promote the hell out of it to stimulate sales. By the way, IMHO, 180 and 270 cranks sound like crap, unless you put them on a bike that looks like it fits that kind of sound; otherwise, it's just an affectation. Well, lets just hope that the amazing 3 cylinder engines don't start disappearing too, as I think that they have the best sound ever! I could be happy with a twin, as long as it has a 360 degree crank, those sound pretty good.

[@Pompomgrenade]

Why don't you guys go get a parallel twin tattoo or something? 🤣

[@Pompomgrenade]

🤌 Happy Easter to Kevin👹.. But only Kevin 😑

[@Pompomgrenade]

Kevin mechanical has been beaten... There are five digital modes for the running of my motor😮road,dyna,enduro,enduro-pro, rain .... And the default factor of my operation being 'retard' 😂has nothing to do with timing... I can 'mechanically' select through those choices... By handlebar button. While simultaneously adjusting my suspension for; single rider or passenger with or without luggage.... And configurations of soft•medium•hard, on the fly by handlebar push button😮. The bike is smarter than I am.. mechanically😂

[@gary0184]

Please add captions!!!$

[@Pompomgrenade]

😂 What do you call a bagger racing league champion potato'ing at full RPM? ✊mashed

[@tylerlafountain4840]

I'll be more on board when I see forced induction twins 😅

[@magellanicspaceclouds]

Twins are cool and all, but to me they're not as exciting as higher cylinder engines. I'm eagerly anticipating the release of the Yamaha R9 with their amazing crossplane triple.

[@joshgts9675]

All inline 3 cylinders are Crossplane. There are only a few exceptions. Yamaha marketing for ya.

[@magellanicspaceclouds]

@@joshgts9675 I would still take a Yamaha triple over a Triumph triple.

[@joshgts9675]

@@magellanicspaceclouds Yeah. Those T- plane Triumph's are the exception I was referring to. As far as I know the only "advantage" is a unique sound. The way Yamaha, and everyone else builds inline 3's is the best way engineering wise

[@philipfreeman72]

I want to see an opposed piston motorbike , no head no valves .

[@sqd8r]

Always preferred the parallel twins. Had 2 Suzuki GS500E's back in the day and they were imo the perfect bike. Always wished for a 700-800 cc version. Nice to see them finally get their place.

[@TheCdubbleyoo]

Yep. Primarily, I wanted to see a GSX500 with FI. I miss little GS500. Liquid cooling would have been nice, but it was also nice to strip it all the way down to the cylinder tubes without draining anything...😂

[@vvevvevvvv]

Now you can buy yourself an 770cc Suzuki gsx-8s or 8r.

[@markhall3434]

Doesn't direct injection solve all the piston ring crevice issues? In fact why don't Motorcycles go Direct Injection? Have they solved the intake port carbon issues or is both direct and port injection required?

[@bikeaddictbp]

I'm thinking "cost"! The intake deposit problem varies - some engines have a problem, some not, no doubt due to seemingly minor but incredibly important design differences. Even on engines that have a problem, some owners have a problem and some don't, due to differences in driving patterns. Personally I don't think we'll see direct-injection on motorcycles before the era of internal combustion comes to an end, due to cost.

[@dereksmith5019]

The most narrow twin , SUNBEAM .

[@markwillis1665]

Love this podcast. Now, KZbin…please, please, PLEASE stop with the feminine hygiene product commercials in what is primarily a men’s podcast!!! Sheesh!!

[@68orangecrate26]

Yes.. Fortnine puts out good stuff. But, not all of us need to be entertained to hold our attention.

[@colincampbell4261]

Cost.

[@robgreggs4933]

These guys can put their words in print...but you read it with your own brain,in your own voice. Denny Crane.

[@rupertbollywood1190]

The Bogdanoff twins took over the world a long time ago.

[@deezynar]

Some pictures of the different crankshafts you mention would really help your audience but since you're too lazy to bother, I'm not motivated to be back.

[@Pompomgrenade]

I like to stroke a flat slide carburetor... Repeatedly to make noise... While burning mixed fuel ⛽ My 2000 is still burning oil in 2024...cr125 😮 never had cases split still hammering my old ass around... 😂 Sometimes it's too fast to f****** thing's dangerous

[@billcag]

Hi guys, I heard from another KZbin channel, the KTM parallel twin is 283 degrees. Is this true and, if so, what are the benefits if any?

[@vvevvevvvv]

You can just Google this. KTM uses 285° firing sequence.

[@ampelec]

Only reason I'm aware of is that it mimics the LC8 75° V-twin

[@colincampbell4261]

No one wants electric motorbikes.

[@johnmartin1114]

Two cylinders is all you need for maximum motorcycle pleasure never cared for transverse fours too high strung for me

[@lawrencefranck9417]

Speak for yourself…

[@stewart8127]

If they stopped hiding disruptive tech from the public I would want one with a helium 3 reactor 1000hp in a 600 lb machine.

[@username-mk8gf]

It came from Hell. Why ever would you want a rocking couple on either side of your bike? It's the cheap replacement to the v twin.

[@TheAegisClaw]

I mean ok... But Fortnine did it better.

[@bradchll]

Ryan (Fortnine) does a great job explaining tech. Really great actually, but M Hoyer had me roaring with laughter, with his hand gestures bordering on lewd ,while describing the same thing. Enjoyed it all and great that Kevin is involved as well.

[@nickclarkuk]

I don’t think they’re really compete . I absolutely love these discussions.

[@fredbates7693]

Politically correct means not calling Porta Rico a "floating pile of garbage." Politically incorrect describes bigoted words that, I hope to God, result in politicians who use, and approve of them, to lose, bigly.

[@mitchellkalina8191]

It'd be cool to see an emissions compliant 2-stroke direct injected parallel twin. They can lay down 165-170 hp and 100+ lb. ft out of 850cc in the snowmobile world and they're LIGHT. They move 450 pound snowmobiles around with ease, would be pretty fun in a motorcycle.

[@Pompomgrenade]

Are you trying to tell me that that boxer twin? I'm loving, is bringing back the type 1 VW's I drove in? The aircraft in hangers I glared 👀in? Then why is the dirt bike I climb hills with sounding like the chainsaws I saw logs with?🪄 Primitive crackle🔥