The "Other" DnD... Yes, again.

Well, Bishop Madison Brooks is back again, this time publishing Demons & Dragons on DriveThruRPG. Many more details in the video!
Previous videos on this subject:
About D&D (No, Not THAT One) • About D&D (No, Not THA...
Closing the Book on the Other DnD • Closing the Book on th...

[@finger3181]

You're being far more polite over this than I would be. He's nothing less than a thief.

[@KthulhuXxx]

This will get me flames 10 ways to sunday, but what the hell. BFRPG was published under an extremely open license. That means that, as long as the proper attribution is given, other people are allowed to do damn near anything with it...to include slapping a different title and cover on it and selling it. That's not "stealing" or "being a thief", that's using the license in the permitted manner. There are slightly less open licenses that BFRPG could have been published under that would have made this impossible, but those aren't the licenses that were chosed to publish BFRPG under.

[@SeanClayton]

I'm a huge open-source advocate (I'm a software engineer) and I have been getting into creating my own RPG books in pretty much the exact same manner set by games like BFRPG and Cairn. This exact situation is something I've had to consider (I'm firm in using CC-BY-SA and AGPL licenses so that ain't changing) and I would be doing exactly what you are doing. The labor behind BFRPG is valuable and isn't free, so it deserves compensation. Their evident labor doesn't seem to be worth what their asking at all, in my opinion. They also do not at all seem to be acting in good faith. I would be advocating for people to FREELY redistribute CC-BY-SA works, even the PDF they're selling for $20. Let the marketplace fix it. Also: Just because they are acting within their legal rights does not mean they are acting within the terms of use agreement on DTRPG. I don't know the policy, but when people choose to publish on DTRPG they agreed to act a certain way to others on the platform most likely, and this person might be going against the agreement they agreed to.

[@aWOLtrooper]

So frustrating to watch you deal with this. I love your game, looking forward to seeing you prevail once again! Anything you need, call on us!

[@malikiray8388]

So sad that someone would do this. Maybe it's not illegal but is as dishonest as it could possibly be. Credit to you for handling this with class and restraint, you sir are a credit to the rpg community. Thank you and all the contributors for for BFRPG.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Well, thank YOU for the kind words!

[@jimjones7980]

Thank you for all of you and your volunteer's work. I have been a fan of Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game for years. It has been a reference for me to understand old school adventures. I don't generally play the system as I mostly play with my kids who are more amenable to lighter rule sets like Maze Rats, Cairn, and Knave, but it has been such a great source for ideas, monsters, advice, and art. For that, I am very thankful.

[@jimjones7980]

Also... I think I am going to put "Schrodinger's Anger" in my back pocket.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@jimjones7980 I was kind of proud of that one...

[@PhilipDudley3]

We should repost this and let people know not to support Demons and Dungeons nor their publishers (Gothic Church and Madison Brooks)! Support original creators!

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

He’s trying to grift off of two games at once. Dragonbane’s Swedish name is “Dragons & Demons.”

[@colinspeirs]

You are a complete Mensch Chris, much more patient than I would be

[@Arcboltkonrad13]

Sorry to hear about the troubles. I'll tell others about this. EDIT: I clearly mean to warn them not to purchase the game, not to harass anyone.

[@patiencebear]

Strange suggestion and unpleasant topic - but I'm glad it got into my feed. Never heared of the basic fantasy game before. Glad I learned about it.

[@edwardromero3580]

It's ridiculous that you have to deal with this BS. Keep fighting the good fight, Chris!

[@TenkarsTavern]

Demons & Dragons has been removed from the DTRPG webstore

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! That outfit is run by a scurrilous knave.

[@direden]

Basic Fantasy is an amazing gift to the community. Thank you for your outstanding work! The Gothic Church is a severe disappointment to the D&D/OSR community.

[@danielsellers4958]

Really impressed with how you've handled this so charitably and coolly. Is that a special edition cover of BFRPG 4th Ed on the table under the "other" D&D. I haven't seen one that looks quite like that before, but I like it!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

That's the Alternate Cover version of the Core Rules. More details here: www.basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5206

[@Darkestdarkify]

I aspire to your level of calmness when dealing with this.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks. It was a journey to get here.

[@HangryDwarfPress]

Hats-off to you for your approach to this situation. And I'm looking forward to supporting YOU in your publishing efforts.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Let me point out here that buying our books is definitely optional. We give it all away for free in digital format, and make almost nothing from the sales. For the Basic Fantasy Project, "contributing" is done not with money but with time and talent. But hey, if you want the books, let me not stand in your way, and thanks!

[@ianwarren1301]

This is so frustrating to hear about, let alone having to go through it! If it's any consolation, I've just ordered a number of your Basic Fantasy books off of Amazon.

[@robbabcock_]

It's sad to see sketchy behavior like this but it's a step closer to a legal effort.

[@tubebobwil]

I have enjoyed Basic Fantasy and the incredibly open approach. These Gothic bozos have violated every good faith principle that makes the hobby healthy and ethical. Thank you for taking the time to give us a detailed description of what they've done.

[@sumdude4281]

IndestructBoy sent me. Sub'd. I buy your stuff off Amazon, hardcover. Glad I found you.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Welcome!

[@rangleme]

So sorry that some people don't understand how the open license works. Keep being awesome!

[@ferretnuclear]

I have the same thing going on with one of my 'freebies' based on the old Open D6 licence... sigh...

[@benitopulatso6637]

I just bought the BFRPG books on Amazon. All of them (I think) between two orders. Even with free pdfs, I like physical books in hand and on shelf. And you can't beat the price. I hope this helps!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Kind words are always appreciated, but honestly since we sell almost at cost, sales aren't the main way people contribute. The best way to contribute to the Project is to join the forum and share your stuff!

[@CrimsonCreed-ct5dk]

This is wrong on so many levels! We appreciate so much Chris what you have provided to the RPG community. It is top notch! Sorry you are having to deal with this. What goes around comes around! These thieves will have their day of reckoning. I will never have any association with anything they produce! And Drivethru needs to deal with this appropriately. !

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks! I honestly think "Bishop" Brooks needs some help, y'know? Because this just does not make sense. No way it can be effective as a way to make money.

[@CrimsonCreed-ct5dk]

@@ChrisGonnerman I personally have purchased almost all of BF products because the system is amazing, the community is awesome, the prices are beyond reasonable and lastly the future is bright with all that is offered. And i look forward to what is in store moving forward! thank you for being a great example in this industry, it is very appreciative and much needed in the scheme of things today. a breath of fresh air!

[@Jimmy.1979]

Sorry you have to deal with this crap Chris!

[@DrCognitive]

You are such a nice guy, Chris. I don't know how you do it.

[@simonpearson7044]

Hi Chris, how bad is this! You have a new subscriber and a new owner of your work! All the best

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks!

[@TravisLegge]

I'm sorry to hear about this situation. it's pretty gross. I was a prolific creator in the OGL space (and am the developer of Odysseys & Overlords), and over the years I've seen a few people crank out products that were technically legal, but certainly morally sketchy. I quit using the OGL and have shifted my attention to Savage Worlds and a few of the Free League licenses, but I just wanted to extend my sympathies and my hats off to you for your hard work on Basic Fantasy!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks man. Nice to hear from you!

[@TravisLegge]

Likewise! I hope the amazon situation gets sorted quickly!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@TravisLegge Two days ago, on Wednesday the 10th. Took more than two weeks for the last one, and I don't know that it won't happen again.

[@TravisLegge]

@@ChrisGonnerman That's awful. You'd think once they got it cleared up that would be it!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@TravisLegge As of right now I know that each format of each book has a separate "infringement claim" flag of some kind. I don't know if resolving the claim removes it, but you'd think that's how it should work. I have not updated the standard format 4thEd hardback yet, so it may still be flagged from before.

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

Sorry to hear about this CG

[@Shamustodd1]

Legally yes, Ethically not so much.

[@Dymond_Y2K]

Its 100% dishonest and deceptive.. Stay strong Chris!

[@nathanbailey9153]

The fact that you are having to fight IP Infringement claims on Amazon is mind boggling. The fact that Amazon makes it difficult for authentic, long term authors and publishers to defend themselves is criminal on their (Amazon's) part. If there is anything you need (donations to Patreon or something for legal fees), please ask.

[@sharpmountaingames9303]

Again, sorry to hear that this is STILL going on. Hopefully EVERYONE will stay away from this rip-off. I think there's something written on an old stone tablet about not stealing.

[@grumpyinbrooklyn6347]

Time for some lawsuits to start dropping on that charlatan's lap!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Hard to sue someone you can't find.

[@LB_adventurer]

Enough is enough, you need to take that guy to court. Speak to a lawyer and see if you have a civil case (the criteria is much lower.) I love the Basic Fantasy RPG and you should fight to protect all of your hard work. It's one thing to use your generic mechanics, it's a whole other thing to reprint your work font for font. Take him to court and take him for everything.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

First I'd have to find Madison Brooks. It's harder than it looks. Also, apparently a Canadian citizen.

[@LB_adventurer]

​@@ChrisGonnerman it can be done if your lawyer feels it's worth it, there are a lot of ways to track people down very fast

[@simontemplar3359]

Is there some way we can contribute as a community to any legal action?

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Not a likely outcome, but I'll let you all know if we need it.

[@garrickstangle5996]

My in-laws and I have used basicfantasy for years.

[@Indestructoboy]

It appears to have been taken down from DriveThruRPG

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Yes, as of right now, all Gothic Games titles have been removed.

[@JacksonOwex]

That's good to hear!!!

[@tagg1080]

The fact that he is a bishop would instantly make me much less cordial than you are. Thank you for being a good example of a good man. Good luck!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

To be fair, before gothicchurch.org was taken down you could easily see that "Bishop" was a self-styled position. I use the honorific with more than a touch of irony.

[@tagg1080]

@@ChrisGonnerman oh, then I would be even less cordial ! Good luck! Tbh... we did switch to ACKs for my current game, but we spent multiple years on basic fantasy and you guys are doing great stuff. Thanks so much for the hours of fun !

[@simontemplar3359]

he's no bishop. you can't just call yourself a bishop and have it be real.

[@bishopscatacomb9217]

I am a Bishop, but it’s my last name 😂. No I am not this joker lol.

[@disciple012]

Also, I like that Basic Fantasy shirt. Do you have any for sale somewhere?

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Well I did, but now I'm not finding it. Hmm. It wasn't that long ago that I bought the one in the video. ... AH, it's here: www.cafepress.com/shop/basicfantasy/products?designId=110108396

[@disciple012]

@@ChrisGonnerman Thanks. They don't have a large enough size for me. Might buy a pack of those stickers and toss one on my gaming bag or a pin for my vest, though!

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@disciple012 Thanks! I might have to try another vendor, if size is an issue.

[@disciple012]

@@ChrisGonnerman Would probably be hard to find one that does my size. I'm a big guy. I wear 6x.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@disciple012 Ah, I see the problem. Sorry man.

[@HermieMunster]

That’s not good, sorry to hear this. I would certainly be annoyed if I bought a copy of that game and found out I could get it all for free. Fortunately I found all the BF stuff and downloaded , even bought the rules book. Bringing this to folk’s attention and spreading the word is a good way to help ensure he gets no sales.

[@realce666]

I'm disappointed that DriveThru is ok with this.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

I'm not sure they knew prior to Friday. They certainly should know now.

[@realce666]

@@ChrisGonnerman I still wonder what their stance on this is...Anyway, good luck and thanks for all the hard work.

[@eatcomics]

@@ChrisGonnerman If the community can do anything to help, just let us know. We've all got your back

[@KthulhuXxx]

I sincerely doubt anyone was aware of this at DriveThruRPG. There are hundreds of thousands of titles available there, they cannot be expected to do an exhaustive comparison of each new file to everything else they have availible. And lets be honest, even if someone DID notice that it looked kinda familar....most of the OSR kinda looks familiar.

[@stillmattwest]

Hey, I have an idea for Gothic Games. It's a little out of the box. How about instead of running a scam you actually try to add value for players? Just a thought.

[@Adamthegeek70]

I wish there was a license that allows people to resell only if they add value, even if it is a reformat and reorg. Are they using the font. Isn't that non-free?

[@ChrisGonnerman]

The fonts we are using now are free.

[@GrandNagusEli]

I'm sorry you still have ro deal with this. Ill buy a copy of Basic Fantasy RPG this weeked.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks!

[@GrandNagusEli]

@@ChrisGonnerman I found out about your situation from an Indestructaboy video. I just want to do my part to spread positivity and boost smaller creators

[@Adamthegeek70]

Cepheus and Sword of Cepheus are Traveler clones.(2D6 games) I like them quite a bit actually.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Yeah, they look pretty cool. Omer Golan-Joel and I have been friends on Facebook forever. I'd love to try it someday!

[@cccampbell]

Hey. He knows. He's using software and a few hours to do this across multiple fields, in order to farm revenue from bottom feeders. He isn't interested in fallout, it's likely he's not even directly involved with the theft. He expected to spend 90 minutes and harvest a few hundred dollars until it gets flagged. Since he's copying thousands of different authors using software, he's probably generating enough revenue to live in most places in the world.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Unless you know something I don't, I doubt this is the situation. Bishop Brooks selected only some items to copy; the number listed on DriveThruRPG is much the same as those previously appearing elsewhere in the first round of action. They show every indication of trying to use open projects (software as well as books) to project the image of being someone "important." Indeed, the construction of the Gothic Church from nothing more than dreams and shadows, and the crowning of themself as Bishop and even Pontiff (seriously, you should have seen gothicchurch.org when it was still there) is an indication of this.

[@n4tune8]

​@ChrisGonnerman You're right Chris, I think he does have some sort of mental disorder, like narcissism coupled with a total lack of empathy. He does not feel wrong about it, he just follows the cold hard logic, like an AI. An AI does not feel remorse at copying the work of others, it's just what it does to fulfill the task given to it.

[@feralgamersincrpg]

DTRPG takes 30-35% from the cost of a PDF

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks! I honestly did not know.

[@westernman-forelius]

It seems like you are being targeted for harassment. These different obstacles working in concert sound like a major hassle. Good luck with Amazon and DTRPG.

[@Indestructoboy]

Hey Chris, would you like me to signal boost this however I can?

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Sure, if you want. It's bigger than just BFRPG, after all.

[@ReekingGallant]

AI artwork is regulated on DTRPG, but plagiarism isn't?

[@pancakewizard1533]

AI artwork isn't regulated, not really.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

I could report them for infringement, but as I say in the video, technically they're legal now. Still wrong though. A violation of the social contract that the license only hints at.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Wait… has he shared his “changes” with the community?

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@DMTalesTTRPG the rule about licensing doesn't require giving away the digital form, only that those who receive it can do as they like with it so long as they follow the license.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

@@ChrisGonnerman ah…rats.

[@crapphone7744]

If you need or can use attestation from third parties about you being the source of basic fantasy with your Amazon dispute, put something on KZbin for us to see and I at least, and I know others will also, rush to provide that.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Thanks. If I go that route, though, I'll need original proofers and contributors to provide the documents. Actual witnesses, in other words. We're not there yet though.

[@jefftheless]

Unfortunately this smacks of the sort of "side hustle, passive income" crap that's ruining so much of the internet these days. Just a handful of sales a month makes it "worth" it to whoever to do this. Though if it's combined with the far more sinister copyright claims, then you've got a really evil cash grab going.

[@alca6023]

Thanks for letting us know not to buy this product. This sucks and isn't okay. I know how much work was put into this game.

[@titania396]

It sucks that happened to you.

[@MoondragonsEyrie]

Basic Fantasy is my all time favorite TTRPG from 43 years of gaming. It it infuriates me that someone stole your exact material and are selling it for a profit when you offer your game for free for the PDf or just above cost for print copies. I so agree with you, it might be legal but it is SO morally wrong. I am SO sorry this has been done to you. It stinks. I am so disappointed in RPG DriveThru as well.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Actually DriveThruRPG seems to be taking action. Now if I could just get Amazon to move on my response to the last infringement claim.

[@David-su4is]

Sorry this is happening to you again.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

All due respect, but you don't understand what he's doing. Grift works off minimal effort. Its short term at the best. Con men don't care if people are upset, they are wanting to make a quick buck off of folks who aren't paying attention. Long term success was never the plan. Berating them over a lack of creativity is just missing the point, unfortunately. I do applaud your willingness to give them the benefit of a doubt, though

[@ChrisGonnerman]

I believe this is different. First, the Bishop doesn't seem to be taking the easiest course; while we share ODT source documents, Brooks had to scrape text out of PDF files and reformat for basically all the other things they "borrowed." Steps taken to be legal were not exactly minimal effort either. Finally, they are only (as far as I can see) "pirating" half a dozen items for money, plus sharing about a dozen more for free to support "their" games. This is not what I'd expect from a grifter. I firmly believe that "Bishop" Madison Brooks has an issue where they badly want to be important, or at least recognized and respected in some way. They literally made themself a Bishop; it's a self-applied title as best as I could find out the first time around, and the evidence has been erased from the Internet so I can't point you at it anymore. Gothic Church claimed three church locations; one appeared to be a historic church, another an existing church belonging to another denomination, and the last a private residence in a First Nations reserve, all in Canada. Documents once visible on the gothicchurch.org site included declarations from the "Pontiff" (apparently also Brooks) creating social organizations modeled on the Knights of Columbus and their Auxiliary. There was a KZbin channel, now gone, with several animated Bible story videos apparently cribbed from a Mormon channel and one video where a young man gave a tour of that historic church I mentioned. I'm now pretty sure he was not a part of the "Gothic Church" but rather was part of whatever group maintain that building. Finally, Brooks set up faux Facebook and faux Twitter/chatroom sites using Open Source software; they were wastelands, nearly empty of content, but there was some evidence that the Bishop did have a few friends who checked in now and again. All of that has been scrubbed. The chat site is the only place where I ever managed to make contact with Bishop Madison Brooks, and I was smart enough to make a log of the conversation for records purposes. They simply did not seem to understand (a) how they had violated the CC BY-SA license by removing my name, and (b) that even doing it legally would never work out in their favor.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

@@ChrisGonnerman well, maybe you're right. Still, seems like an awful lot of work for very little benefit. As a person who has made some indie games, if you don't have any recognition, you aren't going to sell many copies. Especially at their prices, so maybe he really does just have a weird, skewed idea of how the whole thing (the rpg industry) works. It just seems inconceivable to me, lol. But just because I can't imagine it doesn't mean it's not true

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@jasonGamesMaster I feel like Brooks is trying to construct a new online "self" that is a respected authority, but does not know how to do it so they are collecting things to make themselves look bigger and better. ... that sounds... familiar...

[@jasonGamesMaster]

@@ChrisGonnerman yeah. I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining your nuanced view. That really does make a lot of sense.... I mean, as much sense as this can, anyway

[@ChrisGonnerman]

@@jasonGamesMaster Indeed. I'm hoping to somehow get in actual contact with Madison Brooks, but not holding out a lot of hope.

[@HowtoRPG]

Sorry to hear the Knock off is not very good.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

That's... that's not really the point...

[@JacksonOwex]

So this Demons and Dragons just took the BFRPG rules, put a different cover on it?! That's almost as bad as the theft that WotC/Hasbro was trying to commit with their new license last year!

[@Korroth]

This is an unfair level of aggravation for you. What’s wrong with people?

[@john-lenin]

I don’t know what license you’re using but most licenses say they can use the content but they can’t use the formatting because that’s copyrighted.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

That's not exactly how it works. No, this is more or less legal as Brooks has done it. It's just wrong, and foolish.