Review: Tales of the Valiant by Kobold Press | 2024 Players Handbook

[@CrossTrainedMind]

Thank you for being one of the few covering ToV. I've been on board for quite a while but haven't seen many videos since its release.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I always love covering good games, and ToV is definitely one of them. I hope people come around and see they, and don’t just stick with a worse product because it’s what they know. Fingers crossed more discover it. I’ll certainly keep trying to spread the word.

[@MatthewCenance]

Why is Tales of the Valiant suddenly a low popularity RPG? Wasn't there high levels of hype prior to the game launch?

[@violencesolveseverything2444]

@@MatthewCenance It is just D&D version X, and there are a fuck ton of D&D variants out there.

[@arandomnamegoeshere]

@@MatthewCenance my guess (as @MatthewCenance alludes to) is that it doesn't differ enough from 5e. There's a handful of other DnD-likes that are taking advantage of the OGL fumble - each designed to be a better DnD than DnD. I'm not going to dive down the rabbit hole of whether these other systems are better. But I'll note that there's always been "better DnD than DnD" - including DnD (4e). But they were a problem. The OGL exists... and DnD 5e exists (as does Pathfinder)... because fragmentation was killing the industry. It doesn't matter whether any given system is a better system. If it doesn't have the network effect of a large player base, it starts to die off and players exit the hobby. DnD 5e has that network effect. This is why I'm interested in TotV. Others dismiss it as "just DnD." But I think that's the strength. It can exist within the network effect of 5e. Its compatible with all the material and mechanics you're used to. It plays more like the tradition of house rules than smacking a player up side the head with a completely new rule set. And thus it is less likely to fragment the hobby and speed its demise. YMMV.

[@franciscofernandez8183]

@@MatthewCenance Several reasons. They got a lot of hype under the name "black flag" and lost a lot of name recognition by changing it. They had a really disappointing first preview with lackluster options, balance and mechanical errors, etc. Lastly, when it finally came out a lot of people were dissapointed in how similar it was to 5e, when people were expecting more drastic and creative changes. Besides these reasons, more creative, bolder and better marketed options like MCDM, Daggerheart and DC20 have came up and completely stole the spotlight from what feels to some like "just a 5e homebrew".

[@toufexisk]

Well Played to Kobold Press! Its good to see some innovation and though I haven't been following their work closely, I do respect their approach and the things they come up with. I will be paying closer attention. Though 5e has been good, they have not fixed issues with their game for YEARS. Additionally my first impression of the 2024 PH seems to be simple fixes we have homebrewed for years with a bit of power creep... I hope I'm wrong but we will see. Its good to see groups like ToV, MCDM and DC20 innovating and providing competition!

[@KendrikTheRed]

Great summary on the distinctions/improvements ToV makes on 5e 2014. Nice to have a succinct video with examples that I can pass to people instead of giving the spiel myself. Already shared the video a couple places since you posted it!

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks Kendrick, I appreciate it. I try to put a lot of work into these reviews, glad to see it comes through in the finished product. Those shares are a big deal for the algorithm btw, so thank you.

[@DanielBrough-b7h]

Sounds very similar to Level Up: Advanced 5E; a 5E-compatible system that can be either used to upgrade/sidegrade/replace 5E easily, without forcing players and dms to learn a whole different playsystem, and which allows you to keep and use all your already-purchased 5E content. In fact, it sounds like you could consider it almost modular and mix and match. A dm could structure a 5E campaign, dropping in mechanics from ToV or A5E as desired, and the players be none the wiser. Or a dm could allow players to choose characters from these add-on systems and play alongside other players using standard 5E characters. Great, detailed review, thank you!

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks! And very much so, especially with all of the other content Kobold Press has put out. Also appreciate you dropping a comment, that is a system I have not looked at yet.

[@zixserro1]

12:30 I mean, I think the reason they don't include Artificer in the core PHB is the same reason they didn't include a ton of races & subclasses: Why put it in the book everyone's gonna buy when you can make them buy a whole other $30 book just to get one class? If they could get away with it, the PHB would contain, like, 6 core classes, and all the rest that are currently in there would be spread between six or seven adventure modules or expansion-type books like Tasha's.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Makes sense, and I’m sure someone has ran the numbers on that. With the VTT they are developing it’s also going to be a micro transaction nightmare.

[@TweaksDIRT]

Thanks for doing this. This is probably one of the better ones I've seen that actually sits down and really talks about what is in this game. As someone on the fence it's kind of neat to see what they really did and didn't do. And this is coming from Pathfinder Second type of GM.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks man, I spend a lot of time on reviews because it’s something people have poured a lot of effort into, and I want to respect that. Honestly I think most people should just start using ToV instead of 5e, it really is better, but unfortunately I think most don’t seem interested. I guess that familiarity really does the heavy lifting.

[@TweaksDIRT]

@@homebrewedtabletop It's kind of one of the reasons I branched out myself. I was interested in tov for sure. But I decided to go a little bit more. Hardcore with Runequest and Symbaroum. I just wanted to see a really good video and you hit it out of the park. ToV especially interests me with Demiplane. I might dabble with it there. Due to ease of use. Thanks for the reply. Keep up the good work. I'm watching Dragonbane review as well.

[@lovethepandainyou]

@@homebrewedtabletop I have been a fan of Kobold Press since they started their first 5e book. But ToV really seems to improve the individual mechanics without improving the system itself. I don't know if I would blame KP more than my 10 year relationship with 5e. And when enough is enough, I need more than just a glow-up from my partner. I am absolutely bored and done with 5e at the moment and ToV is just not offering a strong solution to my frustrations. I am a lot more keen for Nimble 2, 5.5e or MCDM. And if all this fails, I will go the 13th Age route. Nimble right now seems better for me because I feel like 5e's combat is 1) too slow (at 10+ levels) and 2) both too complicated and too shallow as well. So changing the combat without changing the rest feels like a much more astute approach for me. I absolutely agree though that anyone who wants to play proper 5e should now play ToV instead. PS: Keeping basically the same crafting (10gp a day lmaooo), jumping, mounted combat, cover and resting rules was also a major turn-off for me. Crafting is abysmal. I'v homebrewed MUCH better rules since the first year the book came out because, eventually, we needed to actually have proper crafting, buying/selling and parchment rules. Like many other oversights, I just felt frustrated that they didn't touch this, which is a bigger priority than races versus lineages because at least races mechanically worked fine. In fact, I mostly thought that about most of the changes: small improvements that make a lot of sense, but never a big fix or improvement. Embellishing the one bathroom in your house doesn't create the extra bathroom you might truly need? :P

[@overlordofmidgard5876]

I've bought the Monster Vault for TOV. Definitely an improvement over the Monster Manual. I'll probably be using this as my new default monster book.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yep, for sure. I thought about going through it, but I’m not sure it has as much appeal. Most likely I’ll cover it with the dungeon master’s guide comes out, which I am very much looking forward to.

[@lew526]

@@homebrewedtabletop The ToV Game Master's Guide has delivered to its Kickstarter backers, at least in North America, and I think I've seen it in my local game store. You should be able to get it very soon if not already. Since Kobold Press is really good at monsters, it might be nice to mention a few highlights from the ToV Monster Vault when you review the GMG.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Loved this review. Tales of the Valiant is looking very polished!

[@MrValanthe]

About the spell descriptions being in the spell list. It's worse than that. WotC HAD figured that out. The 3.5 Player's Handbook has one sentence blurbs about what each spell does exactly like Tales of the Valiant does. This means that it's not that WotC hasn't figured out this easy thing, they had it, and intentionally decided to remove it after 3rd Edition.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Oh wow, I had forgotten. I played a decent amount of 3.5 that does indeed make it worse…

[@eoris12]

Probably a reason for it.

[@Bondanalloy]

@@eoris12 page count

[@slaapliedje]

​@@eoris12 Because they suck. 😜

[@stephendragonspawn6944]

I like that there's 4 different spell lists: Arcane, Divine, Primal and Wurd, as well as Rituals on their own list.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Nice features for sure.

[@Staticaster]

3.5 had spell descriptions in the spell lists too, I have no idea why WotC dropped that for later editions.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yeah, I had forgotten until someone mentioned it. I’m sure turnover probably had something to do with it, or maybe just poor decision making.

[@Bondanalloy]

"why would they not do what fans want?" brother you said it all

[@tommartin1223]

The artwork you showed is amazingly good

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yeah, some really great artwork! A few slipped through the cracks, but overall I really like it.

[@CopperDragonGames]

I couldn't have said it better myself (and I tried a few weeks ago). Hahaha. Excellent video! 🏴

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Oh hey man! I think I’ve seen some of your videos. And I appreciate it, I put a decent amount of time into it, and even scrapped my first attempt. Lol. So glad the final product was worth it. Not sure if you discord, I just see your website, but drop by and say hello sometime.

[@hectamus_]

Really enjoying the format and quality of your videos. Keep it up!

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks Hectus! Will do!

[@garykinney16]

Good summary of ToV. Informative and enjoyable to watch.

[@darth_zorg]

Great stuff and also a very balanced comparison.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks Zorg, I appreciate it.

[@RisingBean]

My biggest issues with ToV were only two subclasses per class (Cleric gets three) and how it didn't push the envelope a bit more. The first is a problem that I see being fixed with more material. The latter is just inclination. I'm rooting for the Kobolds. Good video, my first. I'll be sure to check out more.

[@Wiccad]

It shouldn't be too hard to port in subclasses from other 5e-like systems. I love mah Hexblades, they'll be in my ToV game.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I agree on both points. Would have liked to see a handful of other things added in as well.

[@RisingBean]

@@Wiccad While true, I'm a johnny come lately with 5e. I was doing Pathfinder 1e until I saw the 5e players handbook for 30% off. Even then I didn't just buy in overnight. It was a long time selling me. I simply don't have a lot to port in. With that, I'm sure the kobolds will build it up over time.

[@RisingBean]

@@homebrewedtabletop Yeah, I'm liking what I'm seeing overall, I just want more options. Anything in particular you were interested in?

[@bocconom]

I have bought a lot of Kobold Press books particularly their fantastic Midguard setting offerings. I'll need to look into this for sure. new sub.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Awesome, glad to have you here! I think we will be seeing refreshes on everything in the near future after talking with them at gencon. At least that’s the vibe I got.

[@pipechair_DnD]

For myself, I will probably buy the 2024 version of D&D, and I think I will play with it as well. That said, I think the editing and organization of the ToV is great (I especially like that the spell list is accompanied by an overview). And Luck could be incorporated into the current 5e. Originally, 5e was a modular game. You can play traditional 5e with other 5e-compatible elements mixed in by house rules. Maybe that's how everyone plays...

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Will definitely be interesting to see what they do with the 2024 handbook. I’m excited to check it out and review it.

[@AngelJVelez-ur4ii]

From what I saw, the subclasses are limited however Kobold Press has released previous content that includes subclasses and, to my understanding, these are compatible with ToV.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Great point, that’s my understanding as well.

[@andyenglish4303]

sort of. all their old subclasses have 5e14 style progression and need converting. They released a free conversion guide to explain how.

[@shawnoleary6031]

Well, the abandonment of 3.5 by Wotc did lead to Pathafinder and now the OGL Fiasco has led to the 5.0 Revolution

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yep 100%

[@noverrius]

For a channel with 350 subscribers, this production quality is insane. Definitely hitting the sub button.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Haha thanks! I have a digital gaming channel I’ve been learning on for a few years now. :)

[@colinmerritt7645]

I have WOTC with a red circle-slash on my shoulder

[@homebrewedtabletop]

lol I read the first part of this and was like “oh god, fan boy attack incoming” glad to be surprised.

[@tommartin1223]

My book gets here Monday. Can't wait

[@hectamus_]

Should definitely review Nimble 5E (second version) and DC20!

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I definitely will! I think a few others are likely to come first though.

[@houligan5254]

Because ToV changes the levels that features are gained at, it does have the downside of being slightly less backwards compatible versus something like Level Up.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

100% and I would like a conversion guide tbh.

[@sertaki]

Sounds like this is the Pathfinder 1 for D&D 5. Neat!

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Pretty much! Although the situation that prompted it was a bit different, the result is very close to the same.

[@SuperFrostyice]

I prefer the artstyle of ToV rather than the 2024 previewed WotC version

[@homebrewedtabletop]

It’s weird how wotc went with like everyday life scenes. Seems really weird to me. I want to see a character like I’m going to play doing cool things.

[@DabroodThompson]

You've actually been able to play a Kobold in 5e D&D since 2016 when Volo's Guide to Monsters came out.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Haha you got me there.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Yeah ToV really could’ve stripped a bunch of vestigial aspects and pushed bigger changes, and I would’ve preferred that a lot. It inherits maybe too much clunk and issues, but there’s some good spice that competes against 5e24 if wanting a different 5E

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yeah, it seems like there are two groups, one wanted continued compatibility but interesting features, and the other wanted something new but familiar. Sounds like you, me and a lot of others are in that latter category. That might also have been a helpful way to frame it for the video here. Next time I guess.

[@LouAnders1]

Very nice overview

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks!

[@lew526]

Lineage/Heritage is an important improvement to character flavor, and "no more dead levels" really is refreshing for all the classes. I also want to say the "mechanist" is actually using a kind of magic, but there's a long tradition in TTRPGs of powers that are not-magic in name only, like psionics, spell-like abilities, etc., so potato-tomato, no biggie. 🙂

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Maybe they are using the power of science?

[@shawnoleary6031]

Yes, it is DnD 5e, they just added a more streamlined system and added innvoation to the play.

[@RoyalKnightofDestiny]

I missed the kickstarter so I can't buy it on my VTT of choice yet :/

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Oh bummer. What’s your vet of choice? I’ve been working on some reviews for a few.

[@RoyalKnightofDestiny]

@homebrewedtabletop Roll20 cause it's the one I started on and my group plays with.

[@rbmcnutt]

It’s coming for sure.

[@VosperCDN]

Thanks for the overview on this rpg. I'm likely to steal parts of it for my next big game, since I won't be touching wotc in the future.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Glad it was helpful, and stoked you found the channel!

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Oooh! I am so hyped. I dropped by my local game store today because I really needed to use the bathroom. After releaving myself, I looked around. It was a fun experience, like it always is. I found new RPG books. One was a new DND book about an infinite staircase. Another is books about Tales of Valiant. I am interested in this new game. I flipped through the book. It does seem like a DND knockoff, like Pathfinder. I was intrigued. When I watch this video, I am even more hyped. This does seem to be a case of filing off the serial numbers. The main case that comes to my mind is Fifty Shades. It is a seties of adult novels. Fifty Shades is heavilly based on Twilight, and even started out as Twilight fan fiction. There are only two major changes. One is that the characters have different names. The other is that it swapped out the paranormal for... let's say adult content. Now I see that TTRPGs are an even better case of filing off serial numbers. There is stuff that really seems like a very close knockoff of DND. That can make Fifty Shades look innovative and ground breaking. Maybe adult content in Fifty Shades counts as a creative spin. It is definitely wierd at least. It would also give the prudes a heart attack.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

This video does give insight into the wider situation. I was making a cynical speculation that Tales of Valiant was taking advantage of the licensing scandal at DND. The store clerk agreed. Pathfinder and Call of Cthulhu had stuff selling out. Now is a great time to release a new TTRPG. I am a weirdo that wasn't bothered by scandal. I think creating original TTRPGs is the perfect solution. This video said that DND had a stagnation problem for decades. Wow. That really puts things into perspective. That is why Pathfinder is such a big deal now, despite filing off the serial numbers. It even started out as DND homebrew. This is a very similar situation as Fifty Shades. Pathfinder is far more successful now than I would have expected from a knockoff. That shows how stagnant things are. I got on the Pathfinder bandwagon. It did amaze me, once I think of it. It brings nice ideas to the table. It blows my mind that a new TTRPG can be made so easily. It encourages me to try it myself. Tales of Valiant essentially has the same situation as Pathfinder. I am all the more intrigued by what it has. Maybe I ought to get the books. I have my own idea of an RPG. I have a lot of creative ideas. This goes way beyond filing off serial numbers. My basic idea is to have a game where there is a heavy focus on magic. My working title is Age of Magicraft. This video is really encouraging. I like how it promotes competition and innovation. It also points out the economic benefits of higher quality and lower cost. One of my creative ideas is to have magic go into four categories, called aspects. These aspects are Nature, Arcane, Occult and Holy. This is something that I came up on my own independently. Then I found out that Pathfinder uses the same four categories. That was a complete coincidence. Now I see that Tales of Valiente also have the same four categories. The names of the categories are different, but the flavor is pretty much the same. That is funny how coincidences work. I would like to see how these games deal with the four categories. I do appreciate that the Tales of Valiente book has the spells organized better than the DND 5E handbook. There are two more things that I find cool about Pathfinder. One is that it has a witch class. That is another coincidental thing. I came up with a witch class on my own. Witch is one of the most famous kinds of magicians in the media, so it makes sense to make a class out of it. I was going for Wicca and the positive depictions it has of the witch. I classify the witch as a holy class. So it is in the same category as the priests, clerics and monks. The witch has a religion where they worship Pagan deities, and they have a strong moral code. They are a healer in battle as a result. Anothe cool thing about Pathfinder is the action economy. I like how it streamlines the games.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Streaming is a good thing. It is perhaps underrated. DND rules can come off as excessively complex and clunky. Maybe this is because it is an ancient game from the seventies. It hasn't done much to innovate. Video games streamline a lot. The computer calculates things for the player. Magic the Gathering is a slightly less ancient game. It is from the nineties. That helps with streaming. The general rules are simple and straightforward. The cards are essentially bite sized chunks of detail. There is a lot of variety, and there is a fun challenge. Having bits of info on a need-to-know basis makes things a lot more manageable. TCGs in general work that way. I think TTRPGs can be streamlined without ruining the fun and challenge. Players can still indulge in nerdy fantasy stuff. They still have a variety of classes, races, spells, items, lore etc. It is just the calculations that are simpler. The game runs smoother, and it becomes more fun. One example is Pathfinder having an action economy where a player gets a few actions each turn. Giving an action cost to everything is a lot easier than agonizing squeezing as many bonus actions one can make in their turn. I have came up with house rules to make the game streamlined. There are two that stand out. One is using mana instead of spell slots as a magic resource. Mana is so much easier to track, and it provides flexibility. The other is how attack rolls work. I just combine the two rolls per turn. It is easier and less random. I roll for damage and then add modifiers to that. I add whatever user's ability score that would have powered attack rolls. Any ability score can be added depending on the kind of the attack. The exception is constitution. The damage roll is subtracted by a defense score of the opponent. This is usually an armor bonus of the opponent. This replaces armor class. If an attack requires a saving throw, I subtract the matching ability score that the opponent has. TTRPGs have lots of math. This is called crunch. Math isn't fun by itself. It is a means to the end of having fun with fantasy and role playing. If some mechanic can simplify calculations without ruining the fun, then it should be done. I think there is a way to innovate while still building on the foundation that DND provided. That would be the best of both worlds. To its credit, DND has more simple and straightforward ability scores than video game RPGs. It is a small number to add or subtract to other numbers. That is good stuff right there. I would like to incorporate that and still streamline the game. Ability scores vary due to level and class. So it is good for contributing to the fun.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Just a point of clarity, Kobold Press has been making 3rd party content for a while, so they had to do something because of the ogl fiasco. Otherwise they risked one day suddenly not having a business at the whim of WotC. Or at least that was the rational behind it. This was also the case for many creators in the hobby, hence the rush towards any and everything else.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

That’s cool, seems like you have a lot of solid ideas. You just brewing up for personal use or thinking about moving into the creative space of ttrpgs?

[@proxy90909]

I've just been looking to jump ship but wanted something compatible with the 3rd party stuff I have, I am so on board with this, I've been waiting for the full thing to come out. I just finished the vid and I am a bit bummed by the subclasses thing being moved as that might make the subclassss from hombrews amd the like be incompatible with the new character creation and that might make it kinda hard to actually mix the 3rd party stuff with it... But I gotta actually read it as it may be a case of "all the 3rd, 6th 9th stuff put it in 1st 5fth 8th lvl" Really hyped about this!

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Hey Proxy! Sorry I somehow missed this comment! I honestly felt the same way a bit. And one of the issues I have with all this 3rd party stuff is how to combine it all together. Such as the Fateforge setting which I love. Sure doing something is easy, but now I have to balance things on my own, and more importantly for me, I don’t know how to give quality guidance for everyone watching and wanting to mix and match. It almost feels like we need a standard power level we can all agree on. But maybe I’m over thinking it and most people will be happy with just swapping out the level bonuses and filling in gaps so their are no dead levels. Idk.

[@proxy90909]

@@homebrewedtabletop Got the books and gave it a read, I believe it will be mostly even, I am mostly concerned about 5e→TotV as I have a couple of 5e homebrew stuff and of course most of the old clases, but after giving it a look it seems stuff like the cleric and the like is pretty "straight forward" as in all the lvl 1 stuff from the domain (and lvl2 with the channel divinity option) can just be slaped at lvl 3 and then go forward as the subclass features are the same number just placed differently. That was my main concern, it will still get a bit in the way of transitioning with my table I am sure but I think its worth it to just phase out 5e, most of the classes I play this days are from grim hollow anyway. But I can see how it will be slow turn for new players, my table knows 5e I dont really have to teach them to play and they can understand a conversion if I tell them "just put out everything subclass before 3rd lvl at 3rd and everything after in each lvl that the "subclass feature" tells you. Also they will pick spells with 5e "class limitations" as all the expanded ones dont use the circles, etc, but a new player either plays a very dry TotV (which makes sense if new to TTRPGs in general) or its gonna be kinda confused. I saw a suggestion thats more for Kobold press than content creators and it was that they release there "Xanathar/Tasha" equivalent with subclasses and races/player stuff that they previously made for 5e already converted to TotV. I personaly havent used their Tome of Heroes but it sounds like a quick way to have options. (Letting "conversion" subclases to the experienced players that already played them and know the game a bit more)

[@azzaelulbrinter]

As someone who have been working MONTHS on a methodical way to price magic items, you got me hooked when you said they had a system to price magic items from any game. I paused at that point and saw it... It's almost the same table from 5e with absurd prices ranges. Sure, they also have a small table to price weapons and armor, but still with absurd gaps.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I apologize if I made it seem like more than it is. I just thought it was a nice touch. Definitely not surprised that what you made over 8 months is better though. Would love to check it out if you share it somewhere. All my social are linked in the channel description, give me a ping somewhere if you do, and it’s not too much trouble.

[@azzaelulbrinter]

@@homebrewedtabletop lol this took me by surprise. Don't worry, it was just a quick disappointment. I will share a summary of the system now on my twitter ;)

[@commonviewer2488]

Seems like this is the best option for people who would like to keep buying 5E products but don't want to support WotC.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

100% and it’s nice that it’s not a mixed bag. For that group, it’s a no brainer.

[@valorin5762]

I once made a 10 page list of spells with description for another RPG (The Dark Eye, a German thing) because nobody else did.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Oh wow, well I guess it’s not just wotc then. Lol

[@valorin5762]

@@homebrewedtabletop should be a no-brainer. Especially new players are totally overwhelmed by lists with rather cryptic spell or ability names without any context to them. But I'm pedantic and can't stop once I started, so I make these lists, or custom character sheets or... 😀

[@mrXdism]

@@valorin5762 Was, DSA war doch schon immer in seiner Geschichte bekannt für tolle, übersichtliche und komplette Listen und Veröffentlichungen ;)

[@NatureNET09]

are you doing one for the monster vault?

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I was more thinking to cover it briefly when the dmg came out. I don’t know that I have a lot of inspired things to say about it is all. And just being like “it’s goody seems lame. lol. Anything in particular you are interested in that I could look into? Might spark some creativity.

[@NatureNET09]

@@homebrewedtabletop it would be cool to see comparison, I love the new TOV dragons

[@dariomeneses5756]

Failing attack rolls builds character!

[@connors7078]

It did not take 4 decades for D&D to add short descriptions in spell lists. The 3E versions did.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Indeed, thank you, I genuinely appreciate the correction. A few others pointed this out as well. I played a lot of 3-3.5 back in the day and had forgotten this, or perhaps had assumed they would not regress. Clearly I was wrong. Although I’m not sure the regression is quite the brag some have claimed it to be.

[@connors7078]

@@homebrewedtabletop Agree it is a regression. I was not bragging. I just saw that part and went, "I'm sure the PHB used to have those." Yes. Weird they let that go. I think there might have been some argument about it cluttering up the spell lists. I don't really care either way. I actually hate the class-based spell lists for D&D :D

[@homebrewedtabletop]

@@connors7078 Oh, I didnt mean you. A few die hard WotC fans have given me a talking to on various social platforms. Like missing that one fact made me the stupidest person ever and completely negated any other points I had. So you know, typical internet conversation. lol Yeah, I have heared page count was an issue, but that seems crazy so idk about it. Felt like copium. I think it's more likely the people making the content are some combination of overworked, underpaid, or just plain not listened to.

[@connors7078]

@@homebrewedtabletop All good. Ignore the haters. Keep doing what you're doing. It was a good summary. I prolly did not need to point that out - it just made me think I am sure it has been done in past :D

[@bm1747]

"I hope you at least want what's in your own best interests." Branding is all about making you care about the company or products interests. Brand loyalty is them highjacking the part of your brain that loves in order to take more from you than they deserve. Honestly, same goes for politics. The GOP makes people love them so that they can turn that love into hate & bigotry, just so a handful of billionaires can become multi-billionaires.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I don’t know enough about marketing to agree or disagree, but I have seen people want to attach their entire identity to things that didn’t deserve it. It’s a human condition but one I personally do not yet understand.

[@Nobleshield]

Thanks for the review; I'm not a big fan of 5e but recognize the brand name, and with WotC's recent fumbles I'd rather not give them money. I saw ToV at my LGS and from a cursory glance (note I don't play 5e) it looked like a slightly modified 5e. Might have to consider it as a way to get 5e players to try something new, since trying to get them to play OSR/1st edition AD&D isn't that easy lol

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Haha yeah, it’s basically 5e+ I did have some issues after the review either peeps wanting a character creator and used to dnd beyond. Like one guy didn’t know really at all how to make one, was kind of eye opening tbh.

[@FuzzballStudios]

Mechanist actually refers to mechanism: the belief that the universe is an interconnected machine.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Oh cool. Where is the lore from? I would love to catch up on it.

[@kinghtstemplar]

I agree with you that Kobold press did not go far enough, they pitched TOV as a streamlined 5E because as we all know complexity and crunch bog games down and I was sadly disappointed to see not much to speed up combats or otherwise streamline play. Secondly I noticed classes that historically got back recourses on short rests (bardic inspiration, warlock spellslots, barbarian rages) no no longer do but the Kobolds didn't increase how many uses of these abilities you have, which I think is going to lead to either many more long rests and a lot of reluctance in using what should be core class abilities.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yeah that’s fair. I think they generally aim for more power, but also more danger than vanilla 5e.

[@MikeNerone]

Heya Homebrewed, I'm a kickstarter backer of ToV myself and recently received my two-book set. So now I'm thinking about when to try to get my group to try out a new system, and I come across your channel (I'm sub'd now) and also find your GURPS 4th Edition review. I've been playing RPGs since the 80s myself, and played the original GURPS, but I had no idea it was still around and being updated. If I'm going to try to convince my group to try something new, now you've got me considering GURPS, too. Could you make a ToV vs GURPS video? :)

[@MagiofAsura]

How does ToV improve combat?

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Luck mechanic, many of the abilities that I didn’t talk about, such as a bards ability to negate damage via they songs (and ongoing combat effect), feats are far more interesting and useful imo, and the weapons abilities have tactical options. Probably some more, but that’s a handful. They didn’t do anything crazy as that wasn’t their design goal. Which I think is a major sticking point for a lot of people.

[@MagiofAsura]

​@@homebrewedtabletop so off-turn, it's still just as unengaging as 5e, I take it? Will we see, "how to speed up combat in your ToV games?" That's my issue with 5e combat. Waiting 5-10 minutes to be engage in combat between turns is boring.

[@ScottnCarol4JC]

I wish it wasn’t so expensive. I will probably go with Nimble 5e because it is much more affordable.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yeah, that msrp is a little steep. If you are into 5e I’ve got one coming out soon that’s literally free/pay what you want.

[@Zr0din]

Am I able to play my battle master fighter 5e in ToV?

[@NatureNET09]

there us a 5e converision guide, so yes

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Yep, I think you can convert basic everything tbh, without too much work. What is too much will of course vary person to person. To me it’s no big deal, but I’m not the average player either. It might be too much for some.

[@odinulveson9101]

First off. Love your content. Could you do a Draconomicon series of all different new and new takes on dragons from Kobold Presses books? Tales of Valiant, Creature Codex, Tome of Beasts 1-3? Im gonna get the ToV PHB and GM Guide soon. But I HAD to grab the Monster Vault book! Why? Oh sure alot of new monsters and in general a new backstory, behaviour+preferences, take/ twist on existing ones from base D&D5e14/24. BUT the creators did something ( Kobold Press in general ) tgat WotC totally draaaags their heels on. And that is to add new types of kinda forgotten dragons of chromatic, metallic ( gems someday too I hope ) and miscellanious ones. They frigging added YELLOW dragons! Behaviour like a reptilian cat with radiant breath weapon ala a gem Crystal dragon! Also a purple Voud dragon! Want to fill in more missing chromatics? Brown sand dragons from Tome of Beasts 3 and orange wasteland dragons from Creature Codex. Sure all but yellows have a different naming than their colored scales but still. THIS also makes me think of using these for inspiration creating dragonborna after these ALONG the original takes on aforementioned chromatics. D&D yellows have salty bludgeoning+blinding breath, lives by the coast. Oranges live in jungles and have oily salvia with sodium mixed in to immolate and explode prey in water and purples have plasma breath and live in Upper underdark, neighbours to Lower u.d deep dragon sub species and Middle u.d 3e/4e purples. Browns in DnD had acidic breath but I rather have ToV browns which does split dmg with fire and piercing sand. Grey are missing but in DnD they are purely physical and tough with draining piercing bite, they have thanks to Tiamat acid breah but just homebrew it to acid dmg at bite instead so it stays unique.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Thanks Salty! I really appreciate it! I do plan to continue covering all things ToV in the future. Although time is a constraint right now as I build up a catalog of videos. I was going to skip covering the Monster Vault, as I didn’t have a lot to say about it, but after hearing how excited you are about it, I feel like I should give it a go! I might have to figure out a different format than what I typically do with reviews though, so I’ll have to think on that. Thank for taking the time to say hello and passing on all the dragon info! Hope to see you around!

[@odinulveson9101]

@@homebrewedtabletop I' ll stick around! And dont stress out too much. All you content creators work is admirable and guess not easy

[@andyenglish4303]

I mean ... 4E vastly changed the spell list and also put the magic items in the PHB. When 3PPs do something new its innovation but when dnd changes things its alienating the fanbase or something.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I think they can take it. They are the biggest and most well known game and company in the space. And have been for decades, as well as having by far the deepest pockets. I don’t think wotc is the victim here.

[@andyenglish4303]

@@homebrewedtabletop I never said they were. Not even sure how you took that to be my meaning. Just pointing out that there's an irony to what you said on the topic.

[@johnbe8505]

is this book on amazon to buy?

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I don’t believe so, but there is a link to their website in the ideo description for you.

[@stephendragonspawn6944]

Yup, Inspiration is gone (except the Bardic Inspiration) and now there's Luck.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I’m excited and a bit chemical of luck. In GURPS it ends up being overpowered but I like it in theory. We kept forgetting about it in our sessions or at least underutilizing it.

[@Val-ym8pm]

I think Tales of the Valiant is better update of 5e than the new players handbook 2024

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I suspected that might end up being the case. A friend offered to show me the 2024 handbook at GenCon but I haven’t gotten to do much more than glance at a few things. Were you one of the lucky few to have gotten one, or have you scoured the web for it?

[@arg9469]

Ill check it out but the prices aren't very good tbh. 35 dollars for a pdf is pretty steep and 70 for the physical...thats more expensive than what WotC is charging.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Agree, it is on the expensive side, and I can see that being a detractor. Although I would t choose D&D for it being a cheaper option, especially after the “under monetized” comment. I think we are going to continue to see some pretty anti consumer practices out of them moving forward. So it might be a case where saving a buck costs you two in the long run. Then again, I could be wearing my tin foil hat on accident. There are also some other alternatives out there as well, I’m working on a review for another one right now, and it’s a steal at $50 for the physical and free/pay what you want for the digital.

[@arg9469]

@@homebrewedtabletop That's fair, I wouldn't go off of price either but it does make a difference. I've been buying alternatives, mainly OSRs and I really like the ones I have been reading: Shadowdark and EZD6 just to name a couple. I wouldn't be surprised to see those anti consumer practices from WotC, they already tried to monopolize the RPG market...

[@keithmathews4605]

The biggest portion of this book, as well as sooooo many others that are like it, is that the 'concepts' they introduce have actually always been a part of the system. Literally, nothing that they add or suggest is new, it is just that so many people who play are looking for a 'rule' that says they can do these things. Many of the older versions of D&D, as well as many of the old school clones, all made (or make it) part of the opening description of the game, that it is encouraged to think outside of the box with character customization/creation. There is little need to spend the money on books like this, when you literally only have to think outside the box and have a discussion with the DM and others at the table. You want an Elf in you game that has wings? Sure, sounds cool. You want to add some bonus or advantage to some roll, if the DM thinks it fits, sure... add it. I can somewhat understand why newer players to D&D feel the need for things like this book, but when you have older players that have been around for a while feeling the need for these 'supplements', I don't get it. Are they useful for an idea for a new player? Certainly. But at the end of the day, old school D&D offered so much more customization for characters and what you could do IN a game, because the rules and descriptions were/are basically left up to the table and the DM when they come up AT the table. Steve the fighter dude wants to jump from the staircase, swing from a chandelier, and then jump into the fight like some demon possessed fighter from some novel he read (or from some TV show he watched)? DM says, sure, make a Dex check... or... damn that sounds cool, just do it. Having 128 different feats to select from is actually restrictive, vs, the rule of cool. Thing is, so many gamers feel like they need an actual rule in a book that they can point to, rather than simply accepting what the DM says is acceptable in the moment. If it is explained by a player in such a way that fits the lore of the game or the way something fits at that moment, the DM will probably agree. If Steve is upset and throwing a tantrum because the DM is not giving him a sentient sword of vorpal destruction that teleports him anywhere in existence 38 times a day, solely because Steve feels he should have said sword... sorry Steve... you are not the DM. Less rules, more rulings, is a true game-changer.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I would say I generally agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying. But at the extreme house ruling everything is a problem. And it’s extremely difficult for the average player or gm to know how to balance homebrewed content. A little is easy, and works well, a lot is unwieldy and too much work. That’s why having rules around all this made by professional game designers is helpful. Which again I think generally agrees with what you are saying above. GURPS the game I play most suffers from this same issue, but it’s actually which rules to use that is the problem, rather than the homebrew.

[@keithmathews4605]

@homebrewedtabletop you used the phrase 'balance homebrew'... it should not be about balance, which is part of the problem... it should be about what works. Balance is what has contributed to D&D becoming the mess that it is where there are PCs with massively bloated hit points, pew-pew spells for Magic users, and nearly all characters of a given class almost always going for the same exact look and feel as everyone else. The fact that the older games of D&D and many of the older clones are not balanced... is part of what makes them more customizable. The pursuit of balance has somewhat neutered the game in many ways. Still, people are going to like what they like. Personally, I am just not a fan of a hard set rule for each and every thing because it feels like I am being pigeonholed into some bland "everything must be balanced" kind of soup. Lastly, these types of books and their content, are basically someone else's version of a 'homebrewed houserule'... but it's more acceptable to most because it has some professional distribution company behind it or some well known logo stamped on it. Whether it is in a pdf, notes on a napkin, collaborative discussion at a table, or between the covers of a nice hardback with amazing artwork throughout... homebrew is homebrew.

[@RisingBean]

@@keithmathews4605 Hard disagree. When I first got into ttrpg's, we tried Rifts. Power Creep out the wazoo there. Balance? Hah! My GF played a shapeshifter. My pal played a low level speedster. I basically played Superman. I had over 400 HP to start, and the mega HP where it took mega damage to hurt me. I had like a 42 supernatural strength. We played Rifts exactly one time. It was so unbalanced nobody had fun. While I do agree in thinking outside the box, a rules baseline is a great thing.

[@keithmathews4605]

@@RisingBean I am not understanding why you are trying to take what I was talking about with older D&D to somehow mean I was including Rifts. Rifts has a massive power creep. It is literally player characters with no powers to speak of, along side of characters with power armor, lasers, magic, psionics, gladiators, tanks, aliens, and everything else, to include the kitchen sink. They are not the same. Well, unless you consider that they are in the fantasy realm... and even then... that is a huge stretch. Rifts is not D&D. What I am talking about is older D&D where the rulings OVER rules is a much better experience. Again, Rifts is a really poor comparison.

[@RisingBean]

@@keithmathews4605 Rifts was just my example in action. I think any game D&D, Rifts, Gurps, Mutants and Masterminds, ToV, etc need a framework to work. They need balance. Otherwise you get the "Rifts experience" where players talk to the GM into all sorts of shenanigans. Do I think rulesets need to tell you every single thing you can do? No. But they should cover the basics. I actually think 5e does that better than 3e. It's a bit more hands off, let the GM decide.

[@shawnoleary6031]

The amount of roleplaying is dependent on the game master/dm. There is no need for a special mechanice to relect this. Fourth edition tried to quantify roleplay and it failed. The type of game played is dependent on what the players want and what the gm presents.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Have you played many systems with mechanics that successfully encourage role playing?

[@DrWaites]

I disagree with you that D&D hasn't changed in 40 years. The game massively shifted between the TSR AD&D era to 3rd edition. Then again to 4th edition (which many players said changed so much that they don't count it as "D&D.") And then again to 5e. I'm also no fan of WotC, but let's be honest in our criticisms.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I was speaking more about innovation than simply changing things. They needed those systems to be different enough that players had to purchase the new version. And good enough that players wanted to. I think even WOTC would agree they failed that with 4e.

[@shawnoleary6031]

I have had no problem with race or species. There is nothing wrong with this terminology. A human is very different from an elf, a halfling, a gnome, etc. They are seperate than human. It's not bad, its' not evil, it's just different.

[@ThatNewDude29]

I just received my copies of the players handbook and monster vault from the kickstarter and have told my friends that it is to 5e what pathfinder was to 3.5, a near universal improvement over the original while maintaining almost every core mechanic. Honestly, my only gripe with it is that they’ve continued with 5e’s proficiency system which i have come to see so many flaws in over my years of playing 5e. I much prefer skill points or how pathfinder 2e handles their skill proficencies, because as is, the skills and saves you’re proficient in don’t actually improve, so long as you’re going against challenges of an appropriate level, your chances of succeeding with your proficient skills will always be the same, while the ones you aren’t proficient in will constantly be getting worse and worse.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

That’s a good point about the proficiencies. I’m also on that page of wishing they had gone a bit further, but idk if that would have been the “right” move or not, just my preference. It also makes it funny when I get comments on this video saying it’s hating on 5e, since it basically is 5e lol

[@LordOz3]

One of my disappointments with ToV so far is they didn't fix Monk. WotC did a much better job in the last playtest version of the Monk, so if I were to run a ToV game, I'd use the UA Monk.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Oh that’s interesting. What sticks out to you on them? Sounds like you have some insight I might be lacking.

[@andyenglish4303]

@@homebrewedtabletop The TOTV monk just gets a lot fewer new toys than other Martial classes,

[@LordOz3]

@@homebrewedtabletop Without reworking it, there are three things I would patch on the ToV Monk: 1) Increase the martial arts die one step.- d6, d8, d10,d12. 2) Give the monk additional ki points equal to their WIS modifier. 3) Dash or disengage doesn't cost ki points. Doubling jump distance still does.

[@greyclaymore]

This is not a proper review, it's just an anti-5e soapbox.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I’m sorry you feel that way, certainly not at my intent. Would be curious to know what caused that impression if you are up for sharing. My tldr is that it’s just 5e+ for what it’s worth. I wish they would have gone further. But also they couldn’t really, as they wanted it to be compatible with all their other 5e materials. That they found ways to improve upon a system with 10yrs of play testing I think is kind of to be expected. And I think even the guys over at wizards would agree with me on that. In fact, they just took a pass at it, so we will see soon!

[@artistpoet5253]

Rules for vehicles? That's neat. D&D is D&D because it's D&D and anything trying not to be D&D but still building on the mechanics of D&D is also D&D. ToV shouldn't be seen as a D&D replacement or an example of what D&D could be. That's where the marketing went sideways with it's visibility. Of course the jaded will just shrug and go back to 5e or Tasha's and Xanathar's. ToV joined the other wallflowers deliberately by declaring, 'If you're familiar with 5e you'll feel at home with ToV...It builds on the 5e Creative Commons License.' Oh. So, meet the new boss...same as the old boss? Well, better the Devil I know than the Devil I don't. Still: rules for vehicles...neat.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Im not sure im literate enough in marketing to understand what all you mean here, but it does seem clear there was a marketing problem, which I think is a large part of your point.

[@artistpoet5253]

@@homebrewedtabletop It's just words. The Kobolds spent a lot of time talking about how familiar Tales will feel to 5e players so those players went looking for 'not 5e' or just stayed with 5e and the various supplements they already had. KP should have just focused on Tales being their own system that is compatible with all the material they produced already. Let the customers know that this game offers a High Fantasy experience with smooth character creation, extensive encounter rules and a combat that is engaging and intuitive. Hopefully videos like yours will bring more awareness to games like Tales. :D

[@KindlyCryptid]

DC20 though??

[@homebrewedtabletop]

I’m working towards it! Got a daggerheart game going for that review first. I try to go for quality over quantity though (play test and all that), so it will be a bit.

[@Joshuazx]

Video is well done, but this system is not for me and I hope everyone plays Shadowdark RPG.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Haha got a pdf to review, and I can’t wait!

[@sanshinobi3664]

No competition for D&D? I get that the network effect is a hell of a drug, but if you genuinely believe that, are you are more blind and Stevie Wonder.

[@homebrewedtabletop]

It’s not a question of competition existing, which I think is your point, it’s a matter of other games actually threatening to draw a significant number of players away the later here being my point. With the unspoken part being the ogl fiasco.

[@basilnottheherb]

For folks fully done with anything 5e I get the desire to not be into this BUT for someone like.me who likes 5e but just needed it better tweaked, this I think is gonna be aweome

[@homebrewedtabletop]

Seems like a great way to still play the system, but not have to support the evil corp.