The Overhang Showdown - X1C and MK4S

[@AZ3D_printing]

You got me there at "different companies pay me more money" LMAO joke of the year

[@mrdlg2u]

😂 I spit my coffee out...

[@RobertCowanDIY]

And more true than you think!

[@FaithfulMC]

@@RobertCowanDIYWait….😂

[@adamsvensson2035]

The value from this video is great! This is some real tech journalism stuff. It is great to see that one follows up on these kinds of details in such a structured and comparative manner. Thanks a lot for making this video!

[@hippiemcfake6364]

Really excited to hear that you'll be known as the "overhang 3d printer test channel" from now on.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

HAHA, ONLY videos about overhangs! That would be a sad channel.

[@ScottStoneUnforgivenII]

Fair enough! Thank you! I appreciate you taking all that time for testing.

[@MrDonXX]

I lol when you said "certain companies just pay me more money". I loved it nice one. - Well Done Robert now on to the other cool stuff

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Yep! I need to do more projects.

[@herr_rossi69]

Hi Robert, thanks for the video. It looks like you were paid too little by both companies🤣 I can absolutely agree with your summary. I think the update for the MK4 is worth it just for the new fan. This solution is stronger and more even in all directions than before. After all, it delivers similar performance but is still very quiet. Which is important to me personally. Remain critical, even if it hurts sometimes. As I have already written several times. No printer or brand has only advantages. Everyone can buy their own best compromise.

[@joell439]

👍😎👍 Thanks Robert - this was all very helpful. When i first started to print I never imagined it would be possible to print in mid-air - trying it felt too much like voodoo..... So I would have never attempted this comparison, and thanks to you we all don't have to.

[@NoMercyFtw]

Awesome video as usual

[@Barbasnoo]

I’m grateful to own and use both regularly. My X1C is set up for orders (very small scale production of my own original functional parts). And my MK4 (soon to be MK4S) is set up for prototyping my designs. I like using the Prusa for prototyping because of how quickly it starts the print when compared to my Bambu.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Huh! We're the opposite, I tend to use the Bambu for prototyping because the print itself is so much quicker. I don't like all the stuff it does before a print, BUT I started both of these tests at the same time and the Bambu was still doing whatever it does and the Prusa was 1/4 the way through the first layer. But then, the Bambu beat the Prusa on the first layer and was faster for the whole rest of the print.

[@Barbasnoo]

@@RobertCowanDIY I really need to test the two against each other I reckon. I may have it backwards! I was going purely off startup time. But what you’re saying makes sense.

[@Valhalalala]

I appreciate the followup video

[@omerozbekoff]

Thanks Robert, the bottom line is printing overhangs with supports and thats it. Cheers.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Yep!

[@SianaGearz]

There can never be enough talk about overhangs!

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Haha, I'm not so sure about that!

[@SianaGearz]

@@RobertCowanDIY You've got the overhang hangover. Though honestly i appreciate not designing evil overhangs into your designs, because that works with PLA, it doesn't work with PETG.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

​@@SianaGearz Exactly! With how good tree supports have gotten, there's almost no reason to print that much of an overhang without supports.

[@Jaayjeee]

Both printers are amazing. Do what you want and don’t spread hate

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Yep!

[@kudkoc]

Looking forward to seeing Core One here :)

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Don't hold your breath. They stopped talking to me after this video. Prusa doesn't like to be criticized. I might buy one myself and give it a REAL review, devoid of affiliate links.

[@No0o0o0o0o0]

Great job Robert. Enjoying this "not going to be a series" deep dive and your time and effort to address it. I don't think I normally would print these extreme overhangs normally without supports as you mentioned. So the controversy was interesting if not silly on its face. There have been 2 bambu studio slicer updates since your last video, 1 addressing the overhang issue directly. I think everyone who gets either brand will least accept these results or set the comments ablaze in fanboyism. *feeding the algo 😁

[@Schyz]

This is like the watches that can dive 200m deep. People don't buy them because they are professional divers, they buy them because they want to know that if the watch gets wet, it will keep working. The 75-degree overhang is not something people plan to use in their prints, but if you see that these printers can almost pull it without making a mess, it means that every 60-degree overhang they print will be flawless 100% of the time, with cheap filament, with out-of-the-box settings, it will always work.

[@MartinWolker]

Structural profile is the Prusa standard profile over the speed one.

[@PaulStevensonPinball]

Good point. I'm conflicted as to which profile would be most appropriate. If I actually want good overhangs, I'd use Structural for sure. But since the MK4S was already losing the speed benchmark using the Speed profile, switching to the Structural profile would have only made the Prusa look that much slower. By using PrusaSlicer's Speed profile, Robert made this more of an apples to apples comparison with more similar print times. That said, Robert's conclusion to only print 70+ degree overhangs with supports should be taken with a grain of salt, since on Prusas the Speed profile is really more of a draft quality. And if you're comparing Structural without supports against Speed with supports, Structural might end up both faster and better looking. Obviously this topic is bigger than Robert wants to investigate, but for me the final word is far from conclusive.

[@benruss4130]

​@@PaulStevensonPinballI agree the place where I find prusa to SMOKE bambu is that I can actually fix a prusa that breaks, good fukin Luck doing that with a bambu

[@GarethLewin]

One interesting thing that occurred to me when watching this is that I wonder how hard it would be to import prusament settings into bambu slicer and bambu filament settings into prusa slicer.

[@ErosNicolau]

You: This is the last of it Prusa, the next day: Here are some perfect overhangs at 75 degrees with the MK4S :D

[@MrAlekoy]

Would be fun to see the same test on the X1C with the "BIQU pandajet", to see if it makes any difference

[@riba2233]

yeah, just wanted to write this. someone tested it and it worked better

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Yeah, maybe you'd get more consistent results all the way around the nozzle?

[@MrAlekoy]

@@RobertCowanDIY I FEEL overhangs got better after installing the pandajet on my x1c, but it might be a bit like in the hifi-world, where placebo plays a big role :P

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@MrAlekoy I'm quite familiar with that world :-)

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@MrAlekoy Ha. I've seen a few people say that, but nothing definitive. MAYBE I'll get one and do a before/after video. You know how much I like making videos about overhangs!

[@VisualReversal]

Pepsi vs Coke, Ford vs Chevy, Prusa vs Bambu and Pirates vs Ninjas: Competition is good for everybody.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Yeah, I'd agree with that! The consumer is really winning here

[@Splarkszter]

I use REALLY cheap filament (but still very good quality all things considered) that costs me 10 bucks per Kg, the brand is XTZL3D. I have an A1 Mini and never had issues. I said this because of the pointing out of the prusa being more picky with 'cheap' filament. Maybe it's seriously tunned to some additive of the filament they use in their labs (wich I could bet it's polymaker)

[@RobertCowanDIY]

I'm not sure, but I haven't had good luck with overture, matchbox or polymaker. But those are fine on the bambu

[@riba2233]

Ofc, A1 has filament calibration in its head unlike prusa that costs 3x more

[@Splarkszter]

@@riba2233 At least 5 times more actually. Lol And yeah. Flow Calibration is really cool. Can print PETG+ at 30mm^3/s Of volumetric flow on an A1 Mini and prob more if it wasn't by the spool getting tensioned too much. A1 Mini cost me $200 bucks

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@riba2233 True, but I've heard mixed things about the A1. Most of the content creators I know say it went back in the box after the video.

[@spock81]

Would have been interesting if you had taken a brief look at the filament settings to show what was actually changing between Prusament/Bambu/Generic profiles. Iirc Prusa's Prusament profiles tend to print a little hotter than their generic, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar differences in Bambu Studio as well.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Understood. I think for MOST printers once you start tuning and diving into things you can get better results. BUT, I wanted to show what a new user would experience.

[@miraclo3]

Hello, Robert. This is Everyone.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

hi!

[@michalmiddleton1425]

Hello Robert, Thanks for the interest comparison. I came across your channel while investigating why my MK4S overhangs are not that great :) But my question- often you reference cheap vs expensive filament. This has been a hot topic for me in the last years. Considering only regular PLA for this conversation, I tried to compare (focus on fast everyday prints): Inland, Polymaker, Overture, eSun, Sunlu, Jessie, Polar, Anycubic, and Hatchbox. And of course Prusament, which is inconveniently expensive and difficult to purchase in the states. Hatchbox seems to come on top for my MK4. Can you please share what’s your top one or two brands? Thank you!

[@4473021]

2:02 does anyone know why white always prints a lot worse? Are there particular colors that should be avoided like this?

[@RobertCowanDIY]

White has the most pigment. If you watch when the filament is made, there are a bunch of pellets, most are natural and some are dyes. White needs the most. I remember seeing a video once where they showed difference colors and I want to say red or blue was generally worse? I don't worry TOO much about it. But I do avoid printing with white when I can.

[@Festivejelly]

Where did you get the overhang test from? It looks pretty decent and solid.

[@JakJakku]

Weird, I installed the Bambu Studio update, 1.9.5.51, and sliced an overhang test at stock settings. I still see the outer wall speed at 38mm/s, inner wall at 10mm/s. I thought this was supposed to be changed, like how Orca behaves when enabling 'slow down for curled perimeter' or Prusa slicer by default

[@RobertCowanDIY]

That's really strange. It should have changed.

[@ThisisDD]

No link in description to the overhang test STL?

[@75keg75]

😢the rough sides. Is that the side away from the main fan? The shiney areas (rough?) is that due to being hotter?

[@lobocnc]

Supports aren't necessarily the be-all end-all solution to steep overhangs. Depending on the geometry, overhands often lift up *away* from the support structure below, leaving the same ugly surface as an unsupported version. At some point, really steep overhands (close to 90 deg.) will relax and contact the supports, but I'm guessing there will still be an ugly region between 70 and 85 degrees. Just to yank your chain, I'd love to see the tests repeated with overhands kicking in at 70 degrees.

[@geordonworley5618]

Did this also fix the floating bridge issues that were fixed in Prusa slicer? Every day I run into this.

[@ersawjp1]

Did you open top glass cover on Bambu ?

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Nope, I've found on shorter prints like this, it doesn't make a lot of difference. I had them open in previous tests though.

[@k-studioca]

In the end, it's hard to beat gravity.

[@JonSchwenn]

When you say "cheap" filament I'm curious if anyone has really done a deep dive into analyzing different filaments and what the differences really are. Is it just a different mix of fillers and dyes?

[@tr1pp4]

Conclusion: Doesn't really matter which printer you have or choose, simply do not print 75° of overhang 🤷‍♂️ When I started to print in 2019, everyone recommended limiting overhangs to 60-65° and it worked. Obviously physical printing limitations are still the same, therefore this topic is a bit overrated. Simply design your parts without such overhangs or use (ugly) supports.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Yep, pretty much. It's strange they're trying to tell people they can do 75 degree overhangs, there are limitations to what can be done with a 0.4mm nozzle.

[@ivyr336]

I really don't get the whole thing regarding the printers reacting differently to differently priced filament. Why would the prusa perform better with high end filament? How the printers work is essentially the same in the end.

[@riba2233]

Good question

[@logicalfundy]

Prusament is made to 0.02mm tolerance, while other filaments are made to 0.5mm or 0.3mm tolerance. Bambu printers have some extra flow calibration for the filament. So Bambu gets its quality by calibrating itself to the filament, while Prusa gets its quality by having filament so consistent it doesn't need calibration.

[@riba2233]

@@logicalfundy wrong, prusa was 0.02-0.03, and they bumped it to 0.04 lately. All other filaments are 0.05 at max, while most of them are in 0.03 to 0.04 range, just like prusament. Basically it is nothing special. Even if your point was right, that would not be the reason for different overhang performance.

[@logicalfundy]

@@riba2233 for their standard PLA and PETG, it is and remains 0.02. They make some exceptions for things like CF filled filaments, likely because it's got a bumpy texture. Here is the exact text from their website: "manufacturing tolerance of ±0.02 mm (±0.03 mm for blended materials, PETG Tungsten; ±0.04 mm for PCCF, PA11CF)."

[@logicalfundy]

@@riba2233 don't know why KZbin didn't post my other response - but it's still 0.02 for standard PLA and PETG. They make some exceptions for things like filled filaments.

[@SarahKchannel]

So if you mentally done with videos about overhangs - try a video about hang overs - might be way more fun (I just dont know how to bridge that to 3D printing :) )

[@RobertCowanDIY]

ha. I don't drink actually, so I'm not sure I'd have a whole lot to say about that ;-)

[@SarahKchannel]

@@RobertCowanDIY I live in the middle east where booze does not grow on trees - so dito.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@SarahKchannel That will do it ;-)

[@baja68vw]

How are the overhangs on the XL

[@RobertCowanDIY]

They're very similar to the MK4. They're just ok, but not as good as MK4S or X1C. An 'S' update for the XL would be nice

[@riba2233]

I appreciate the follow up and thanks for shining some light on prusas marketing bs :)

[@vilainlechat7187]

the conclusion is that prusa ironically helped to fix a bug that no one noticed and everyone is now happy. I don't think they based the marketing on this bug since it was fixed 9 month ago

[@geordonworley5618]

I have been submitting bug reports for floating bridges and bridge vs overhang walls and other similar issues for quite a while now. Many prints online say they have adjusted their prints to avoid these issues in Orca/Bambu. This was definitely noticed by the community.

[@kaiserruhsam]

i would simply print that part upside down 🙃

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Haha.

[@3Dgifts]

Everyone turned off their ears after you said “They pay me more money “ 🤔😅😂🤣

[@michaellstadler]

Robert, you're just throwing out opinions without solid evidence. The Prusa MK4S clearly outperforms in overhangs due to its solid hardware and cooling setup, as shown in the All3DP test

[@riba2233]

@@michaellstadler cope buddy!

[@herr_rossi69]

I just found this test at All3DP. Interesting that the Prusa achieves better results with its standard profile. The test explicitly referred to this video. The bug in the Bambu Slicer certainly has an effect on the result. But accusing Prusa of cheating wasn't right either.

[@froust]

The bug is not fully fixed in Orca, the fan speed is unchanged for the internal wall, which decreases overhang quality.

[@berlinberlin4246]

Hope they get fixed

[@atnfn]

I saw a comment once from someone who claimed to be an orca slicer developer. He said there was no bug, that it's a setting you can toggle. I'm not sure which setting that would be, it was mentioned but I can't remember what it was called.

[@froust]

@@atnfn yes it's called "curled overhangs", and it works but it doesn't affect fan speed for inner overhangs

[@rarbiart]

The Orca team has decided to declare this a user issue, not at bug. You just have to find the right tooltip in "advanced settings" to alter the default settings. which leaves me with the conclusion that beginners (and even standard users) should stick with the slicers of Bamboolab or Prusa.

[@bruddaozzo]

@@rarbiart Yeah that's a shitty position they've taken. "git gud" attitude, yikes. Just opens the door for another slicer to become the new community favourite.

[@AndroidA258]

meawhile, me, a voron user, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT hahaha

[@girenloland]

Prusa thinks they are the only one that can do overhangs above 30 degrees

[@RobertCowanDIY]

It almost seems like that!

[@krollmond7544]

Do you think you would ever do your personal top 5 or 10 3D printers and why you would recommend them?

[@RobertCowanDIY]

Top 2. Prusa MK4S, Bambu X1C. End of list :-). I guess for a budget printer, the P1S or A1 mini

[@krollmond7544]

@@RobertCowanDIY good enough haha

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@krollmond7544 I had some other favorites, but they wouldn't compete with anything modern. I loved the MK3, but it's not better than the MK4 or anything from bambu

[@ThisisDD]

It wasn't a bug. It was a check box in Orca, but it was BADLY labeled for what it achieves... Prusa has it checked by default and hidden. I believe they are the ones who contributed the feature itself I could be wrong on that though. Bambu did now too. *shrug*

[@ThisisDD]

I just wanted to throw in that after changing the setting in Orca and by adding a box fan as an auxiliary fan next to my Adventurer 5M I was able to print what seems to be better looking overhangs than some of those tests you showed lol (edit: Scandic plate was the test I used)

[@ThisisDD]

I'm going to use your model now and see how it comes out!

[@crowguy506]

The generic profile on the Bambu just runs a flow rate of 20 by default. Most filaments can take significant more.

[@riba2233]

they can't, unless you like ugly prints. generic pla is like 12 iirc, bambu is 21

[@avaviel]

It just... REALLY annoys me that Prusa exploited a bug just so they could have a better talking point on their video.

[@riba2233]

Right? Didn't expect that from them

[@RobertCowanDIY]

If you look at Josef's pinned comment on that last video, I think you can tell that they just believe they're the best. It's confirmation bias at work. Apparently this new 'high flow' nozzle will be 'running circles around the competition'. It shows a lack of awareness of what else is out there.

[@riba2233]

@@RobertCowanDIY absolutely, I bet they aren't even fully aware of the state of current market. That is why they are selling i3 printers for 1100...

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@riba2233 I've had calls with them, and I wouldn't argue that statement. They don't seem terribly aware of where the market is right now.

[@riba2233]

@@RobertCowanDIY thanks for the confirmation, unfortunately not very surprising.

[@gerriti]

IM DISAGREEING WITH EVERYTHING! But yeah this makes a lot of sense. It feels a little slimy of prusa to push the overhangs this hard when they seem to have known that it was really just a slicer bug/feature, and that the bambu's have already caught up. But in the end, they're both good printers so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@MrChoklad]

at this point I wonder if they knew it was a bug, but it is hard to believe their engineers working on it didnt notice that's the reason the bambulab was struggling so much, but again it's also hard to believe prusa didn't think people would realize on their own that was the case, they proudly boost a very savy and smart fanbase, this was not a mistery to figure out if you have both printers. Idk, weird situation all around lol

[@hansstraat1978]

Lol I must laugh how you call it a bug , Bambu ripped prusa slicer and firmware and made it closed source. Prusa altered there slicer and got the overhang fixed cause it is not a bug but a feature. Then the chinese buggers ripped it again and call it a hoerayyy a fix.... A bug is actually a failure in the software and not a feature which is improved ow yes by prusa engineers. If bambulab also made everything open source everybody would benifit from it.

[@JonathanRansom]

I disagree for reasons!

[@RobertCowanDIY]

HAHA!

[@tomweinstein]

I don't think it necessarily proves anything about Bambu, but I'm concerned that it took them a year and significant public outcry before they fixed a bug that Prusa had contributed back to the open source community.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

They claim the bug just got buried. Having worked near software for the last decade, it happens. I wouldn't say there was public outcry, they were reminded of the importance and fixed it quickly

[@hawtdayum]

Id say BL tends to listen to the community more often than not. Last I checked not many people printing at 75 degree, angles without supports. I would venture it's small to nonexistent until Prusa made it a marketing point. Should we fault Prusa for not having multiple build plates in the slicer as BS has had it for 2 years. PS still does not have mesh boolean options either as bambu has been doing it for over a year. Software forks do not mean 1:1 copy.

[@RobertCowanDIY]

@@hawtdayum Underrated comment right here... People talk about how responsive Prusa is and how their support is so great, but Bambu got ON THIS. Also, you're right about the multiple built plates and they've been doing some other stuff too. In my mind Bambu Studio and Prusa Slicer are roughly equal (but different) in terms of what you get from a slicer. It used to be that Prusa was still king, but Bambu has more than caught up to them.

[@4Gehe2]

I don't see this fix in Orca yet... Sigh.

[@riba2233]

and you won't see it, in orca you just need to enable "slow down for curled overhangs"

[@LilApe]

Leave it to prusa to fix things and bambu to copy prusa's homework.

[@riba2233]

ah weak cope, I expected to read a few paragraphs from you about how bambu sucks but what now that you've lost all your arguments lol...

[@personwomanmancameratelevision]

So the claim that Bambu printers couldn't do what Prusa printers do was a misleading at best. This was just a slicer update away, or 1 setting tweak, to correct which was fixed in a week of Robert's excellent investigation. This just proves bambu printers can easily print this with other filaments whereas prusa printers NEED prusament to be good and even then it's just "ok" while taking more time to do it. For anyone with a mk4s, thinking you have a superior printer, you have been mislead. For anyone with an X1C, a printer that was released 2 years ago, no need to update.

[@LilApe]

@@personwomanmancameratelevision Better print quality, better accuracy, just as fast, better build quality, EU/USA made, Doesn't scrub your data and sell it to the CCP, True innovator in 3d printing, far greater quality control, far greater reliability, far greater customer service, didn't have a safety recall, isn't being sued for patent infringement, pro open source, faster multi color printing, far lest wasteful multi color printing. The list goes on. Prusa 4.7 TP rating Bambu 2.3 TP rating. The reviews speak for themselves. Prusa is indeed superior

[@orangutan9492]

@@LilApe You honestly sound like a miserable person. Do you have any hobbies other than complaining about Bambu?

[@riba2233]

@@LilApe haha still coping wildly, just what I wanted to see lol, you need disappoint.