The PAL Layout System: a guide to using the BEST LAYOUTS for NO THUMB and 2 HAND bowlers

[@AlexSanchez-sd4on]

I met Mo in 1994 in mexico city, he open my eyes to the science of how to layOut a Bowling ball, and now we have you to keep the legacy of your great father, thanks for let us know all that knowledg, , thanyou, THANKYOU!!!

[@AlexSanchez-sd4on]

Yo también estuve en el curso que dio Mo en el hotel Raddison del sur, soy Alex Sánchez, saludos.

[@chuckbaker9196]

I use these layouts. I love them. I'm a big believer in the short-pin layouts on big strong Asyms. They are money for me as a 2-handed rev dominant bowler! Thank Mikey!

[@rodlew68]

Just made the switch to "no thumb" bowling and the two handed style is giving me the power the game was meant to be played with! 💪

[@deadpolymers3416]

I've been using the No Thumb nka PAL system (much better name btw) for a while, and always found the step of finding the PSA to be useless. I basically just skipped it and oriented the ball so the cg would end up where I wanted it. So I approve of the change you've made to the SYM layout method. I've found that I get better reactions out of the PAL system and just the plain old dual angle system, compared to the balls I've drilled with 2LS. Keep up the good work.

[@BruceTheobald-f3j]

Thank You Mike for an excellent presentation ! I look forward to putting this information to use.

[@BowlingScience]

Thank you for the feedback! The system works very well and I am sure you or your bowlers will benefit greatly. Glad you found it useful 🙏

[@BruceTheobald-f3j]

Wow That was very enlighteneding!

[@deadpolymers3416]

Great tip @ 8:44. I've always had trouble finding a consistent mid/center line on drilled 2H balls. Never thought about using the original line as the palm marker, and having a permanent reference point.

[@dkozlak922]

I’ve been no-thumbing since before reactive (I’m an old head) and have been using dual angle layouts for symmetric and asymmetric for the past three years with an occasional ⚡️VLS (👎🏼) thrown in the mix. I have a fleet of balls coming my way and I’m excited to FINALLY put the PAL layouts to use in my arsenal. It’s awesome to find somebody with a PAP as unique as mine out there as we’re really close (5 7/8r, 2 1/4d). Most effective DA layouts have been 70x3.5x20 on Zenith Hy, Obsession Tour S/P 90x2.25x45, Command Solid 70x4x40, Collision 65x5x40, DGV (Igniter & Payback) 80x3.5x45. I’m looking forward to ALL of the layouts!!!

[@BigSkyBowler]

great stuff Mikey! I'm really hoping the bowling world will accept and adopt this.

[@BowlingScience]

Thanks! Me too! Let’s make it happen!

[@markbenoit8358]

Thanks Mikey. Great video. Your really makin pops proud, guaranteed. Keep it up bro

[@danielking8983]

I have been bowling 2 handed since January maybe. Tried some with the 2ls system and the ball changed direction really hard and couldn’t stay in the pocket. Went back to your dad video and then pulled the original Sheet you had on these and The difference in ball reaction is crazy. I averaged 200 over the last 5 weeks of league. I’ve never been able to average 200 for that amount to time. Usually stayed around 190 one handed. Appreciate your work

[@BowlingScience]

Thank you for sharing! These layouts just plain work

[@markreed4755]

Mo did my lay outs.Very Nice guy.

[@tylerthies4822]

You got an instant subscriber for that braille reference 🤘🤘

[@whobertbowls]

Can you do drilling between the 3 recommended layouts? Example: Could I do an in between smooth and angular by going half the distance between both measurements?

[@glennswiney185]

Great! It's what I NEED. I CAN THROW A FULL ROLLER AND SPINNER .I NEED TO LEARN LAYOUT 😮

[@詹程楓-z9e]

Hello, I really like watching your videos and I am also a fan of yours. ABOUT PIN 「ABOVE THE LINE LAYOUTS FOR SYMMETRIC BOWLING BALLS」 MARK THE PAP 4" FROM THE PIN AT 45° (PSA TO PAP) Does this sentence mean that the angle between 2" and 4" is 45 degrees? Because my Pap is ORIENTATION FOR PAP ON MIDLINE。 I really need your reply, thank you

[@mattlivetv9246]

Great video and awesome explanation of the system! Would love to see all the different layouts in a big comparison video!

[@BowlingScience]

We have that coming! We have 5 of the same ball, each with a different layout from the system, that we are gonna use to demonstrate the shapes!

[@mattlivetv9246]

@@BowlingScience Can't wait!!!!

[@gtbinh]

@@BowlingScience sorry if i missed this but didnt see it on the channels video history list. was this content released?

[@anthonygomes3751]

I have back pain problem hence reduced my speed/rev. Speed around 14, Rev 200rpm, PAP 5 & 7/8th Up, High track. Need two layouts - strong midlane (45-4-20) and another strong back end (75-4-25) on asymmetric arsenal

[@TheEasy10pins]

Hell yeah, Mikey.

[@BowlingScience]

Nice bronze member badge ya got there sir!

[@wesleysteed2603]

What would be a good benchmark layout you would recommend for lefty who is speed dominant?

[@haynlavaboy]

Going to probably try this out on my squatch solid, my friend created a 3d printed version of the storm arc ruler and this system would be great for it. Had a brain fart using storms system but somehow this one is easier to remember.

[@ondrejtrojek4829]

did your friend find the 3d model somewhere on the internet or was it his own creation? and would he mind sharing it? i have a 3d printer and i’d love go print an arc ruler

[@haynlavaboy]

@@ondrejtrojek4829 he created it himself, i think he said he posted a pic of it on the bowling science FB page i believe, you could ask him, nice guy but the last time he gave away the files for something, the dude started selling the stuff and redirected all the complaints to my friend and he didn't even know it was being sold or got any profit from it, You can try though.

[@ondrejtrojek4829]

@@haynlavaboy I don't understand some people… thanks, I'll have a look

[@artisswhren304]

So how deep do u drill your finger holes cause I heard that can play a factor in the control and roll

[@nicholauscurphey3925]

I bowl with a detroit half-thumb with very low axis tilt and high rpm. I bowl like Tom Smallwood. Should I be bowling with a no thumb layout? I struggle with balls coming in too early or being very snappy in the backend.

[@dannys440]

Did I hear you say Parkersburg? I haven’t been to Emerson since pba was there 06-07 ish. Still throw the pro-am ball!

[@matthewstoker224]

Hey, Mikey. Could you elaborate a bit about top weights and kicking out the CG on symmetrics so we don't run into ball legality issues? You've got me nervous now. I own a few pieces with 3.5oz top. My PAP is 6.5 right by 2 down so I usually run over the middle finger for the first few revolutions. Fingers are drilled 3-4'' deep and I usually place the CG in a typical spot, like a standard 3.5'' PSA to PAP. 5 inch Pin-Paps on most of my stuff too. Could this already be an issue with imbalanced top weights or would it need a really wild layout to throw it off? Examples would be awesome. Bit of a loaded question, but figured you'd be the guy to go to. Love what you and your father have contributed to this sport. Cheers!

[@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS]

I'm new to layouts my Pro shop. Just wanted to drill holes in the ball and didn't care about PAP. Anyway, with two hand to layouts I always see him right-handed of course I always see them somewhere around the CG maybe kicked off to the left of it. Maybe a slight angle but yours is 90° angle so that is confusing looking to me What I mean by a 90° angle is typically fingers will go left to right in comparison to the line of pin CGMB, but you're 90° to it so that's different lol

[@jasonvalentine6932]

I've been using 2ls 5x4x3.5 on my balls so far, but would like to try the pal system on my new symmetricals I just got. What would you recommend for a versatile benchmark type layout?

[@BowlingScience]

I use the strong layout (4x2 PAL for symms) as my versatile benchmark layout.

[@noweanji]

In what situations is the short pin used? is it necessary? Doesn't the ball go over your fingers then?

[@noweanji]

why pap to rf line 4.5 inches? where do you find it? storm arc list different writing

[@thomaspoor8849]

What difference in lateral finger pitches is needed to prevent the holes touching when drilling so deep into the ball on the fingers?

[@BowlingScience]

It depends on the difference in forward and reverse in the 2 fingers. I always suggest more forward in the middle than the ring, so that by itself will cause most to miss. But as long as the hand will allow it I use 7/8 difference in laterals.

[@nordattack]

Dumb Question: How do you drill a modern ball with a core so it rolls the same as a pancake weight block ball does with the old school label layout? In other words, and old school label layout will work perfectly for any style of bowler, 3/4, Full or Spinner. CG is just placed in the center of the palm. My Grizz and Rhino are like this and they both have a very smooth and continuous movement across the lane. If a player wants that same look, but wants to take advantage of the strength of modern coverstocks without the additional dynamics of the core being in play, how should they lay it out? Would there be difference between how a Full Roller would do this vs. a 3/4 or Spinner? Thank you!

[@BowlingScience]

You would have to find a HIGH RG ball and use a 6” pin. Unfortunately drilling holes only lowers the rg, so you can’t drill a modern lower rg core to be like the oldies. I have a Dick Weber legacy reactive that I love for this reason. It’s high RG but also it’s an asymm pancake, so it does the job!

[@nordattack]

@@BowlingScience But what would the layout look like?

[@haikalmatnoor7173]

how would you keep the ball weight reduced after drill for no thumb , as much as normal one?

[@angelmontemayor9824]

Do y’all have a pro shop

[@nordattack]

A little confused. What is the distance of your pin from your PAP? Is it 2 1/4"?

[@BowlingScience]

The short pin trailblazer is 2.25”, the angular payback is 4.5”

[@nordattack]

@@BowlingScience So in the PAL system the first number is the pin to pap distance?

[@BowlingScience]

Yep for asymms it’s pin distance x psa distance x pin above the line

[@BowlingScience]

The charts are in the community tab here on the KZbin channel page.

[@rakkup7572]

Aw dang. No test throws? I got a Storm Mix-off white I’m about to get drilled no thumb. Now we only have 1-2 shops in our area and id like to have an idea of if they’ve drilled my layout correctly. Is no thumb layouts very different from my other 3 hole layouts? Could they simply measure my other two balls and copy them minus the thumb hole? Or it’s a totally different animal? I really don’t know what to ask them for and want this correctly done. Any suggestions?

[@BowlingScience]

The 2 follow up videos show me throwing them. I would drill it with the strong pal layout. We have all the materials published in the video and also on the community tab on KZbin channel if your shop is unsure how to do it.

[@rakkup7572]

@@BowlingScience cool! Thanks for the reply and the useful info. 👍🏼

[@brandoncathey2961]

Just a curious question. If you were to measure that layout in dual angle on the trailblazer what would it come out as?

[@BowlingScience]

So the exact angles will change based on PAP location, but it’s equivalent to the 90/2.25/45 DA layout even though the angles vary.

[@brandoncathey2961]

@@BowlingScience yeah I assume there is some variance. For a dual angle layout though that isnt necessarily a bad layout. Do a lot of these PAL layouts translate closely to "ideal" (I say that loosely because obviously results vary) dual angle layouts?

[@BowlingScience]

So dual angles have to be adjusted for pap to be used properly. The PAL takes that variance out by building in the angle changes into the geometry. The goal is the same performance for each layout regardless of PAP. I would say the strong layout is similar to 40/4/30, the angular is similar in performance and post drilling numbers to 70/4/20 and the smooth layout is like a 40/4.5/60 DA (all approximate and based on true post drilling pin location, as the low rg axis moves after drilling.

[@brandoncathey2961]

@@BowlingScience ah gotcha. So instead of building and varying angles around a bowlers PAP this more focuses on using the given geometry of the core to create the same shape regardless. Gotcha. My engineering brain was just kinda curious. Thanks!

[@BowlingScience]

Exactly!

[@nordattack]

There has been some controversy on the JR Raymond channel about the effectiveness of layouts. He seems to indicate they do very little for a ball. Perhaps you would be interested? Video 1: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJmkhoJqoNiSrNk Video 2: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j32tmYaZfaqYnbM

[@BowlingScience]

The key is effective layouts. I do not respond to his content, it hasn’t ended well in the past but I will offer this…

[@BowlingScience]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWiaaImXl8eaZ8k

[@nordattack]

@@BowlingScience Very wise of you. 😉

[@BowlingScience]

I mean you know very well how as a full roller the layout can cause your ball to do very strange things.

[@nordattack]

@@BowlingScience Very true! Tiny changes will produce huge differences in ball motion. I think of it like this: In a race a car has: Tires = Surface Engine = Core Driver = Layout A race car is only as effective as the driver. The layout steers the ball, not the bowler. Once the ball leaves the Bowlers hand the ball does it all on its own. An auto drive Tesla. A Tesla will only auto drive as well as its programming. The layout on a ball is its programming.

[@speedy5star]

No thumb bowler here . My track line is rolling right over my finger holes . The pro shop said it was my release . Could it be how it was drill?

[@BowlingScience]

It is caused by the release, but most no thumbers need at least a small performance fit to help remedy this. I had 10 degrees of tilt as a 2 hander, which is a lot for no thumb, and I still clipped the holes without using these pitches.

[@speedy5star]

@@BowlingScience thank you! maybe I’ll see if they can watch my release an see if there is any changes they can do!

[@BowlingScience]

I would roll everything left 1/4” and adjust the forward and reverse so that there is more forward/ less reverse in the middle than the ring.

[@BowlingScience]

To start. Definitely get with your pso

[@nickp300z]

What pitches do you personally use?

[@BowlingScience]

I recommend mf 1/2 left x 1/8 fwd and rf 3/8 right x 5/8 rev as a starting point. My pitches are 13/16 left x 1/8 fwd mf and 3/16 right x 5/8 rev rf. I needed to go more left to clear the fingers with my pap and account for a bent rf

[@nickp300z]

@@BowlingScience ok thanks for response, Like you I track real close to my middle finger.

[@nickp300z]

@@BowlingScience I'm 6"1/8 right and 3/4 down last time I checked. But I should check again since that was like 4 years ago😂

[@noweanji]

why pap to rf line 4.5 inches? i dont understand tangent line.. where do you find it?

[@BowlingScience]

None of the layouts have a pin to rf line measurement of 4.5 inches

[@noweanji]

@@BowlingScience There is also the painting at 4:05 minutes of the video. As far as I understand, half an inch is deducted from the middle line from the pap.

[@Jdbreal299]

First try!!!

[@gregjohns5623]

I thought having the pin below the midline was a bad idea?

[@ski2230]

You should’ve rolled the bowling balls to complete the detailed layout tutorial and exhibit your reasoning behind it.

[@nmaliwan]

Why VAL (PAP = 2.25") ?

[@nmaliwan]

On Sym. ball.

[@RobertBrownieX]

I saw Mikey with that clock behind him, I thought he had a captain's hat on his head

[@BowlingScience]

😂

[@jamessok1531]

@@BowlingScience w😅e😅w😅e😅😅😅w😅eee😅😅

[@darrellperkins716]

Can i send my ball to get drilled like this ?

[@BowlingScience]

Where are ya located? (City and state, lol)

[@laco4375]

my PAP is 5 1/4 x 0😁

[@BowlingScience]

Winning!

[@joshg218]

Yo bro.. you didn't look at the camera

[@BowlingScience]

🙈

[@張佩華-p6n]

Why minus 0.5‘’?

[@BowlingScience]

The ring finger is .5” closer than the center of the grip (along the midline). The line is meant to go through the ring finger so this is how he do that.

[@張佩華-p6n]

@@BowlingScience I got it, thanks!

[@alsheps300]

... or just use Storms 2LS layout system. Why re-invent the wheel?

[@BowlingScience]

Umm… our no thumb layout system existed first and was in fact where storm took most of the basis for their system. Mo Pinel, my dad, invented layouts in the 70s and pioneered core design and layouts from then till his passing. Working with him to complete the PAL was one of the last things we did together. The PAL is the ORIGINAL and still most valid layout system for any no thumb bowler.

[@BowlingScience]

They stole the wheel, we invented it 😎