The Pathfinder 2E Rogue | GameGorgon

When you pick the Rogue, you're committing to a way of life. Weather you're sneaking behind enemy lines to eliminate a key target, gathering information at the highest levels of government, or punching someone in the face really hard, there's one thing that's always true. You're a terrible enemy to have.
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#TTRPG #Paizo #Pathfinder2e

[@dimitriid]

The Ruffian might seem lacking but remember this: Skills. Like *tons of them* and also *a ridiculous amount of skill FEATS* What do you get with the skill feats other than lots of RP exploration opportunities? Well you get intimidation. You can literally just stare any kind of creature into being Frightened 1 at least, no verbal requirement, you just give em the look and they're scared. Oh and at Level 3 all frightened creatures are flat footed to you so they're so scared they're open to all of your precision damage. Also you can use your strength for another +1 to intimidate, +2 if you're at 20 STR. This is not only powerful but quite frankly badass: An owl bear? No problem I'll just stare him down, pound my chest and watch him cowl away from me while I sneak attack him to death with a damn wooden club. Barbarians where you at! *Drops mic*

[@Althaven_]

This comment is borderline poetry.

[@mathunit1]

Small correction: You first get the "all frightened creatures are flat footed to you" at level 4, not 3. But besides that, Ruffian sounds really good. 2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=561

[@torinnreactsgaming]

Now I want to see how a Rogue (Ruffian, Barbarian archetype) works out vs the Rogue (Scoundrel, Champion archetype) build I made. P.S. Yes, the build I have is very much a reformed rogue. It is amazing what happens when you take a rogue, and reform him/her. For example, a thief gets taken into custody, and isallowed to serve at the temple of whatever deity in the city as the sentence. Maybe the rogue begins to follow and practice the ways of this deity and begins taking on clerical aspects. With those, at level 13, not only do you have legendary reflex saves, but the potential to also have a 1st-4th level divine spell at your disposal each day. Follow the progression, and at 20th level, you've maxed your rogue capabilities, with the potential for a 1th-8th level divine spell each day. The amount of power at your disposal with reformed rogues, especially with how Pathfinder's "multiclass" works, is ridiculous. Even a rogue, reformed by the law. A scoundrel sentenced to military service, taking pieces from ranger, potentially increasing health, as well as plenty of other possible martial benefits from rangers feats. Same can be said for fighter. Or combine both ideas and have a Rogue/Paladin. Happy Reformation, my roguish friends!

[@ZeriocTheTank]

Why was I biting my bottom lip while reading this? Why is it so hot in here!?

[@arnoldgrobler4626]

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT ALL THE EXTRA SKILL FEATS AND SKILL INCREASES THOSE ARE STRONG AS BALLS

[@Gloomfall]

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING! My Rogue will have 9 skills at Legendary by 20, though most of them are lore skills from Additional Lore. ;D

[@Momoryuto]

I was literally thinking last night “hm, what’s the next queue time’s class video going to be? Last was monk, so next one is... Sorcerer!” Honestly, this really snuck up on me.

[@squidrecluse2336]

I'm going to play a rogue that's also a southern belle, and every time I feint I'll say "oh my, I do declare!" or "mercy, I've come down with the vapors!" Because that's never going to get old in a level 1 to 20 campaign.

[@Althaven_]

I mean, that'd throw me off for SURE lol

[@kyrone2406]

I think that my favorite Rogue Build right now is the Ruffian that takes advantage of the higher strength to use the Athletics maneuvers to trip the opponents and then beat them up while they are down.

[@nelspaulson3099]

The "reformed" or honest rogue is usually considered the PI or sleuth.

[@leviangel97]

Are you not going to mention the crazy number of skill increases and skill feats? I know you've read it many times... but the rogue gets literally double... it's crazy

[@selfconfessedcynic]

Yeah, that's the one big thing they missed. The Rogue gets more skill-ups etc than any other class.

[@Kingneo0053]

Rogue/Champion (Thought this up while working on a Rogue/Monk build. It's a catch 22 for your opponent.) Skirmish Strike (rogue) allows you to step before or after you attack. So you could trip, attack, and skirmish strike. Your opponent has to spend 3 actions to attack you (get up, move, and attack you). That's 2 attacks vs their 1 (with your reaction available to help deal with that attack). Champion's Reaction (champion) gives you one of the Champion's reaction abilities. For this build we're taking Redeemer. If they attack our ally we give our ally damage resistance to that attack equal to our lvl + 3. On top that opponent is enfeebled 2 (-2 to strength based attack, damage, and skill rolls) until the end of their next turn. Plus they had to waste an Action to stand up (otherwise -2 to hit) before attacking our ally. So they only got 2 Attacks. Then had those attacks negated/reduced (so they essentially only got one attack anyway).

[@lukecash3500]

Did you guys know that GMs who were around before the Greyhawk supplement were known for arguing that there was no point in having a thief class? They said that it didn't make sense to come up with a class that did things pretty much all adventurers were supposed to know how to do in the first place. Take Conan as an example. Conan is clearly a fighter but he sneaks around and steals jewels from the tower of the serpent cult.

[@ijokesolo8260]

I'm a simple man, when you upload, I watch. You guys deserve more views!

[@patricksweeney8614]

Very excited for CoC tonight, see you there! GO MONKS!!!!

[@Althaven_]

See you there! You going to be on KZbin or Twitch?

[@patricksweeney8614]

@@Althaven_ Either or, whichever gives me the better connection I guess. Did you guys watch Glass Cannon play 2e earlier this month? They have an awesome monk in that as well.

[@mordecai1171]

Great overview lads, keen to see this legendary monk gameplay :)

[@Althaven_]

Croog: *braces for impact*

[@akselraya3477]

Decided to play a Rouge for my first Pathfinder 2e character. Wow, I really was not disappointed. The sheer amount of feats, skills, and versatility is mind-boggling I love it. I built my Rouge as someone who was raised by a wide variety of skilled people from different walks of life that have now fallen from grace. My party consists of a Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Arcane Sorcerer, and Primal Sorcerer so I don't need to be Charismatic, I don't need to deal amazing damage in Melee, I don't need to have Fireball, and I don't need to be skilled at a range. I am a Duskwalker Orc Ruffian Rouge, With 18 Strength and 16 Intelligence. I planned on being trained in most skills and taking the Witch Archetype (Occult). Mapping out my feats and spells I chose versatility. I took Prescient Planner feats so that when we need it the most we will always have what we need. In spells, Soothe to help out the Primal Sorcerer conserve their spells. Magic Weapon as an easy on the fly buff for any of the Martials (and myself!). In combat I plan to be in the thick of it, acting as the Fighter or Barbarian's flanking buddy, helping them lock in crits and stay close to them so I can slap them with Battle Medicine. Out of combat, I won't be leading any diplomatic relations, but if they ever need a strong dude to menacingly articulate the nuances of biology, magic, civilization, tinkering, and more, I'm definitely their guy. I haven't played him yet, and I saw the guides and the pinned comment talking about how awesome Intimidation is especially with the Ruffian and I know that the new Bard has a Warrior muse, but I have no interest in playing a high Charisma character if there's already two of them at the table. I want to play a battle savant. Someone who is as strong as he is erudite. And finally, after playing only 5e for the last 4 years and feeling like skills do not matter, I want to see the fullest that skills offer. I want to "hmmm" and "huh" over Battle Medicine and Trick Magic Item. Looking at him right now I feel very happy to have built something based on concept. A guy who learned too much and is trying to hard to be good at a little bit of everything.

[@selfconfessedcynic]

Nice! Also, I can't wait til your PF2 camp goes up!

[@Talexsmith]

So, I went the Scoundrel racket and actually went the peaceful, bounty hunting rogue that tries to talk people down and take 'em in alive! Specifically, I'm a Half-Orc Rogue using a Shortsword and Sickle. That finesse + Trip traits on the sickle...so amazing. Dex based trip checks on top of Feint for all!

[@Momoryuto]

Anyway, jokeless comment here. I played a rogue in 5e with some friends recently (thief, levels 8-12). The coolest thing about it was the “whenever you roll under 10, it’s a 10 instead.” So, things usually went,” I roll to sneak, rolled a 2 so I unfortunately only have a 22.” And while it was cool, I felt quite useless in combat as compared as the 1-hit kill bladepact (or whatever it’s called) warlock and not as useful as the bard with all the skills. Pathfinder 2e rogue, while not my first choice, seems to have a whole bunch of things that make me excited! The class feats seemingly mainly combat while the skill feats being a mix of both, it reminds me why I love the crunchiness that is Pathfinder.

[@Momoryuto]

I mean! Assurance is a goddamn skill feat available to everyone in the game!!! So yeah!!! It makes me giddy af!

[@Vladimere58]

Very recently i made a Scoundrel Rogue with Martial Artist Dedication for Stumbling Stance and its working out fucking great! Having tons of fun

[@magnusprime27]

Rogue gets skill feats at first and every level.. I think that's worth mentioning

[@JohnnyRelentless]

Cliche thief?!? I think you mean iconic, Sir. Archetypal. OG!

[@gabrielnaylor6443]

Cant wait for court of corvids later today

[@dragonson72]

I've always wanted to make a trap maker, is obsessed with making them, finding them and disarming them(Think Fred from Mystery inc)to the exclusion of everything else, knows about famous trapmakers(Lore), can identify traps and build them(craft). Asa rouge yes he would have Dex but also Int, Perception, as you can guess, would be high. When entering an ancient tomb or dungeon this is who you bring along. Would work well with the Archeologist type

[@dave80c]

Think my build would either be a spell filcher or arcane trickster. Thief racket Basically ignoring most of the rogue feats. Taking wizard dedication And Rune scarred. Can still squeeze in sly striker and impossible striker. With the ancient elf you can start wiz dedication at level 1 which lets you get unbalacing blow. And magical trickster is pretty key to this whole build. Being able to add your sneak damage to a fireball is pretty awesome.

[@darkchronos7758]

My Rogue Theory build is a Ruffian with some Monk Dedication Feats to become great at grappling people and kidney punching them to death

[@000Dragon50000]

My first character concept was a Rogue multiclassing into Fey Sorcerer, but then I ran into a serious issue with multiclassing into Sorcerer: Signature Spells is technically a class feature, so not only do you only have one spell known per slot level until Breadth, but you also need to learn the same spell repeatedly if you want to upcast it. Compared to multiclasses into Wizard or Druid, prepared casters, you're just gutted as a character. None of the upsides of spontaneous casting but all of the drawbacks.

[@baconeater5557]

Im planning on a Rogue with a Draconic Sorcerer dedication, I think the sorc dedication is garbage if youre taking it for spells but for a relatively small investment you can get the focus spells. So for me at level 4 im getting the dragons claws which will be 1D4+dex+1d6 elemental damage finesse weapons. Way better for me than for an actual sorcerer. Then at 12 I can burn another feat to get the dragons breath attack. I was originally planning on just getting a couple of cantrips from the rogues 2nd level feat but then I realized a dedication would give me the same cantrips so why the hell not. Im not sure if I will even bother taking actual spellcasting from the dedication. I got my cantrips so im happy, and now I have some sick claws and the potential to breathe fuckin fire later on. So I think you should really be thinking about sorcerer dedications as a way to access bloodline stuff, if all you want is spells then you're absolutely right just get wizard or druid.

[@000Dragon50000]

@@baconeater5557 That's just the thing, though, the Sorc and Bard spellcasting SHOULDN'T just be weaker than the Prepared casters just because. And this character very specifically was the child of a dryad, Fey Sorcerer is already in the fluff and Druid just doesn't fit. The correct solution to X problem existing is not "Well if you ignore the problem and do Y with it instead it's kinda ok", not when the stated purpose of the thing is to do X. It's making enough of a fuss to the point where they solve the problem and fix the spontaneous multiclasses. Hell if we do it early enough we might be able to get the fix in BEFORE any further spontaneous Casters exist who also have struggles with their archetypes.

[@trafalgarla]

@@000Dragon50000 Hopefully they might change it enough people bring it up in the forums. That and fix the alchemist.

[@scrip3799]

Oh, at 7:40, Indigo says Weapon Tricks only gives you crit specialization with agile weapons-they don't have to be agile; they can be finesse instead, or you also get crit spec with shortbows, which are neither agile nor finesse

[@spawnofheck]

Aye! the shout out is real! unless it's not... then... well... still great content =) (p.s. i think the first build will be an mutagen alchemist with barbarian archetype. Don't ask me how i know things, you know how i know)

[@4s4h]

Rouge is most OP and versalite class PF2. Skill feat every lvl... yupi.

[@thejohnrahm]

With the use of companions, you may want to take Ruffian for a perfect attack roll. A staple seems to be Nimble Dodge, Fighter Dedication, Double Slice, Twist the Knife, Opportune Backstab, Divine Ally (Steed), Divine Grace, Instant Opening, Loyal Warhorse, Powerful Sneak, Imposing Desterier. Technically, you could go Cleric for Deadly Simplicity and +1 damage but there's no room. Also, I believe Ranger might get a similar feat to Stride at no cost (like Imposing Desterier), allowing for Instant Opening into Double Slice. This obviously grants a feat instead of Divine Grace as a prerequisite, allowing for Precise/Vicious debilitations (depending on Ruffian +1 to hit, -1 to AC, vs. Thief damage) but you need to use Hunt Prey which sucks. Divine Grace is still a great way for Rogues to defend against saves, just unimportant. Being a lawful good Paladin as a Rogue is also kinda weird flavor wise. You could be a Liberator? I mean it would be kinda funny being an edgy Paladin. So at low levels you just take Twin Feint instead of Nimble Dodge. Or you could just Feint, but -4 penalty isn't terrible (-2 net) for guaranteed flat-footed + initial attack. Won't have to waste point on Cha now!

[@halogamerghost97]

Honestly what’ll be fun is to be a roughian rogue frilled Lizardfolk with a monk multiclass

[@CarronBarboza]

We have heroes commanding powerful magic, and those who have hones their bodies into perfect weapons, and learned how to be efficient machines of death. And then we have one very sneaky dudes who can hit hard for some reason I guess. God I love rogues.

[@absolutfx]

Are yall going to do a multiclass video too? I'm considering a Half Elf Scoundrel Sorceror type or some thing similar. Thoughts? Anyways keep it up, I've never been a big fan of listening to others roleplay and am looking forward to listening to you guys here soon.

[@koujow]

What is my wrong build? My build is the one that uses the Skill Feats. All twenty of them. Because you skipped over the part where the Rogue gets a skill feat EVERY level.

[@driftinHank29]

The rogue scoundrel that I play uses his skill set for diplomacy rather than trickery. He might choose to knock an opponent out rather than kill them, depending on the situation. He is most definitely "The rogue that no one plays."

[@smcasas9367]

Ruffian with a goblin ancestry for that sweet horse chopper. Or human and pick up that sweet first level general feat that lets you pick ancestry feats from different races for goblin weapon familiarity. Reach and trip is awesome on any trip build and you have enough skill increases to get some intimidation going too. 18 strength, 14 dexterity and everything else into charisma. Intimidating prowess should work with you're next, right?

[@blu3kitten384]

Oh, I was wondering where the videos of you guys playing were.

[@harjutapa]

Might be of interest to people: Max skill build: Human Rogue with Skilled Heritage and the Natural Skill ancestry feat single skill from background, plus the Lore skill - doesn't matter at all which background you pick for this, pick one with a good Skill Feat and either Dex, Cha, and/or Int as options, because those will be your primary attributes with this build) Int 16 (+ from Human, + from background, + from extra 4, there's no way to hit 18 with a rogue but you don't need it, see below) Scoundrel for the two extra skills instead of one. Stealth auto trained So at first level, you get 17 skills plus the Lore skill. Fun fact, there are only 16 non-Lore skills in the game, so you get an extra Lore skill. Or just make your Int 14 and put that boost somewhere else. 19 skill increases from Rogue class features, plus the increase at 5th level from Skilled Heritage, so a total of 20 skill increases. Getting a skill from Trained to Legendary costs 3 increases, so we're looking at 6 skills at Legendary, with another at Master, if you focus solely on those. And of course, all the other skills in the game are Trained. And also of course, you'll get 20 Skill Feats. That's enough for 3 feats per legendary skill, plus a couple more to throw around as needed. So yeah, Rogues are monsters in skills.

[@Hamisback]

4d6 at level 17... ooof big nerf. 1E was 8d6 at 16. Hopefully damage overall has been curved, as multi sneak attacks was the rogues saving grace in some situations.

[@KodyackCasual]

I'm just waiting for the sorcerer video to explain the build of my first character, honestly. I could make a build for every class, sure, but I'd rather not torture everyone with the absolute chaos that is my character builds.

[@worldstiniestviking]

How about adding a segment or a separate video about "how I would build it," where you each take a different path for whichever class you're demonstrating? Or, ya know, just pick builds from the comments... Like you said (just re-watched it). Planning on doing a Han Solo style scoundrel that always shoots first & has a friend named Lou Yaka (though I might eventually take some Wizard/ Ranger archetype feats). His name is Hansel, but I need a last name... Thoughts?

[@Plexuz0]

So there's no racket that does anything for ranged rogues, which suggests they don't want you to be a purely ranged rogue? Ruffian gives you critical specialisation with crossbow (not heavy crossbow!) which seems like an absolute afterthought. Does that not jump out at anyone else? Sneak attack is allowed at any range with the shortbow, and many of the rogue features don't specify melee exclusivity (debilitations, dispelling slice, poison weapon etc) but with the rackets being all melee, do they just want ranged rogues to pick one at random an never use it? I would've assumed ranged rogue was far more ubiquitous than thug rogue, but I havn't seen anyone up in arms about this?

[@daemorootg8693]

I tried playing a Rogue with the Ranger Dedication to get the crossbow feats. It just was't good. The action economy was horrendous. I maybe got sneak attack 25% of the time and that was with a generous GM. If I cold have waited around to get running reload that would have helped some, but not nearly enough.

[@Bigguyinblack]

My Rogue would be based on RaggedRook's duel wield build. Level 1 Human with 18 dex Thief, Twin Faint feat and Natural Ambition for Nimble Dodge. Level 2 Ranger Dedication Level 4 Basic Hunter Trick Animal Companion Level 6 Advanced Hunter's Trick Twin Takedown Level 8 Rogue feat Gang Up Level 10 Rogue feat Precise Debilitation Level 12 Advanced Hunter's Trick Mature Animal Companion (Ranger) Level 14 Rogue feat Sly Striker Level 16 Feat of your choice. Level 17 Human Ancestry feat Multitalented for Fighter Dedication Level 18 Basic Maneuver for a Fighter feat of your choice. Level 20 Advanced Maneuver for Agile Grace All of your general feats, skill feats, and some of the ancestry feats are up to you. Personally I plan to focus on out of combat healing with Assurance Medicine, Continual Recovery, and Ward Medic.

[@alvarovaldez2026]

Greatest scoundrel ever....Han Solo

[@cz1822]

You know something's broken when a level 2 character can be trained in literally EVERY proficiency, not even gaining extra ones through ancestry or skill feats

[@SoyDrinker]

I feel like you guys seriously undersold the fact that Rogues get both a skill feat and a skill increase EVERY level. Look at a rogue that's around level 10 and look at the sheer number of Expert and Master skills compared to every other class in the game.

[@schwann145]

I kinda hate how Rogue is better at perception than Ranger - they should be on the same track at least.

[@beezeejo]

... END...

[@notorious.scoundrel]

Shit, wait, so instead of dealing sneak attack damage once per turn and scaling every 2 levels after 1st, you just deal 1d6 extra damage to flat-footed targets on all of your attacks that also scales by a d6 at 5th, 11th and 17th level? I like that a lot, it feels more like a damage dealer than the rogue in 5e d&d or 1e of the game.

[@elgatochurro]

How am i supposed to pull of basic sneak attacks? I have to get the enemy to be flat footed and only flat footed condition?

[@Enaronia]

Flank, feint, Surprise Attack...

[@spawnofheck]

a Rogue druid archetype with wild shape could be cool. you get the benefit of being a prepared caster (i still haven't figured out how gaining spell casting from archetypes works, comment bellow to inform me, but i'm assuming it's good) and you can transform into animals, including pests like rats and bugs. You can be a literal fly on the wall. or rat in the kitchen. or echolocation bat in rafters. oh and speak druidic, cause all the languages.

[@JoshTheValiant]

Archetype spell casting is connected to feats. The Basic Spellcasting feat grants you 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots, one each, gained as you level. Advanced spellcasting increases your proficiency IIRC and unlocks your 4th, 5th, and 6th slots, again one each. The last spellcasting feat gives you 7th and 8th (and 9th? Fuzzy on the limits here) and I think master proficiency, but maybe not. It's not... Super great, but it's not nothing. I might have the spell levels wrong as well.

[@trafalgarla]

@@JoshTheValiant Not 9th. You can only get up to 8th level spells and you can take an additional feat to get an extra spell slot and spell learned for all spell slot slots that are 2 levels below your highest.

[@andrewwahba5006]

Anyone here know if the sneak attack rules are similar in DnD 5e? Because my DM said a flanking rogue doesn't get sneak attack if they're seen in DnD 5e which I'm 95% sure is bullshit

[@andrewwahba5006]

@Tommaso Grillo yea I learned about that a few days after posting this. I have since stopped playing with said DM

[@JoshTheValiant]

So, Ruffian Rogue (Monk) is Batman, right? That feels like Batman's deal.

[@baysword]

But can you pick pockets, open locks, and disarm traps?

[@ultimatedbz2]

Only thing I wish we had gotten an int based rogue as well, like a detective guy finding weakpoints or a full on batman gadget guy

[@charleshodapp2427]

Tcool

[@philllllllll]

Dissapointed none of you called it a "rouge".

[@Althaven_]

BWAHAHAHA

[@Ghypes83]

*End*

[@pan2990]

END

[@picivyvortac2641]

I know they're trying to reduce the numbers (I had a player in my game who powerbuilt a rogue with 1d8+1d10+9d6 damage on sneak attack) but I do miss the power scale of a d6 every other level. This still seems fun, but I do think the rogue has moved down from my #1 spot in this edition.

[@JoshTheValiant]

It's wild that someone can say "they're trying to reduce numbers" while at the same time level contributes 1:1 to proficiency bonuses, so all target numbers go up constantly with no outside interference. I get what you mean, and I know why they do it, it just feels wild to me.

[@picivyvortac2641]

@@JoshTheValiant I don't mean numbers in the equation. I mean the actual size of the number. I had another player that was a hunter. By lvl 15 he added 35+ to his stealth every roll. I don't have my hands on pf2 yet but it doesn't look like that will really be possible here.

[@zachthegleeful]

@@picivyvortac2641 A rogue with a Dex modifier of +6 (which is very possible without items, no higher though, and the absolute max would be +7) and legendary proficiency in stealth at level 20 with no item bonus (max for that is +3) would have a stealth modifier of +34 (or a maximum of +38).

[@picivyvortac2641]

@@zachthegleeful there were dozens of boosts to stealth directly. It was not just Dex bonus.

[@Tanglangfa]

So you can add Cha to attack or just to damage?

[@zachthegleeful]

Neither. If you meant Dex, with the Thief racket you can add Dex to damage on melee weapons with the Finesse trait.

[@Tanglangfa]

Zach but then what does making Str or Cha your primary stat do for you? That’s what I’m really not getting.

[@thejohnrahm]

@@Tanglangfa +2 to stat.

[@Tanglangfa]

John Rahm ohhhhh. Thank you!

[@curifel]

Your key ability also goes to your class dc.

[@brothermutant7370]

These games will never get any better until they give sneak attack to ALL classes...at level 15 :)

[@alonelole]

*END*