Pathfinder 2E - Aldori Duelist | GameGorgon

The Aldori Duelist Archetype in Pathfinder 2E is all about patience. Waiting until your opponent makes a mistake, then taking advantage of the opening. Focusing on defense, the duelist gets all the benefits of a shield without having to worry about that whole "breaking" situation that other characters would. It's a pretty awesome choice for martial characters, with only a few issues that we can find. Come join us and talk about 'em in the comments!
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[@armanhammer]

Dueling lore could be useful for having legal fights in town, challenging the honor of nobles and summoning Exodia the Forbidden One.

[@charlespickering2726]

Basically something along this lines. You know who the big duelists in your area, know the rules for dueling and customs so you can participate in/adjudicate duels of honor. I assume it probably is tangentially useful for society type rolls that involve interaction with breaches of social codes and what kinds of conduct to avoid if you don't want to be called out.

[@devontravis7768]

You’ve earned my like

[@Althaven_]

ok i can see that. if you are a duelist i feel like you NEED to duel as much as you can to make it worth it!

[@Momoryuto]

I can’t wait for riding rules to be implemented. Can’t wait to be dueling on motorcycles.

[@Sue_D_Nymn]

Just a note. There is a difference between Raising your Shield and BLOCKING with a Shield. Raising the Shield adds to the AC like the Aldori Parry Feat. Blocking is a separate thing so the whole damage to the Shield only happens when you block with the shield not when you just raise it.

[@Althaven_]

Thank you! don't use shield that often so it is a rule that we seem to forget.

[@morridyn]

Watched a review on the Lost Omen World Guide on Know Direction. They mentioned during the video, that the Aldori are very proud of their duelists and do not want to sully the tradition by teaching it to outsiders, hence the req for being native to that region. It is a bit metagamey, but we are going to be getting tons of new archetypes, especially once the APG drops. The archetypes in the LOWG and LOPG are supposed to more flavored to Golarion. The ones in the APG and other non-Lost Omens books will be more generalized.

[@Althaven_]

yeah really looking forward to the APG!

[@harjutapa]

This is also why it makes sense that the hoops you have to jump through to qualify are much easier for a human, since the vast majority of people in Brevoy (and the master of the school) are human. I could see them being like, "I'm so sorry, you are not worthy to be taught at my school until you can already use this sword that this school has specifically designed for our technique... that is intentionally difficult to use." Using a Catch-22 to still be *technically* being open to anyone while actually limiting membership is a tactic that's been in use for millenia.

[@vamphunterx]

"that the Aldori are very proud of their duelists and do not want to sully the tradition by teaching it to outsiders, hence the req for being native to that region." Ok thats flavor text though, and flavor shouldn't restrict mechanics that much.

[@kevinbarnard355]

@@vamphunterx yet it does all the time. These are options from a guide 'specific' to the world of Golarion. Sure, you can use them in any campaign world, but they are tied into a world with history and politics. This also feeds the players who want in game connections for their choices. For some, these options matter more than mere "stat requirements."

[@Realjaredschmeck]

I like the prereqs personally. I feel like it adds flavor, stays true to the lore of the world and requires the players to make difficult decisions, which will only deepen the connection to their character, making the game that much more enthralling. Love this system!

[@splentforcer1475]

dueling lore can be useful for -fighting a single very strong fighter -settling argument with a duel and special rules (then you can bring all your hema knowledge on the table and "shine in society") -knowing about martial discipline and even some noble society's tradition this is how i would do it as a beginner GM

[@kevinbarnard355]

Perhaps even noticing that your opponent favors a bad leg, or is slow and plodding. Your Gm might offer a minor benefit for taking advantage of your opponents sloppy foot work or poor fencing skills.

[@hermittmog8697]

I like specific styles and archetypes to be from specific places. It ties the character to the world and makes things feel more immersive and can provide inspiration for how to play the character. I understand that would make it difficult to adapt higher level characters but it makes sense that learning something new later on in life is harder than being from a place and already familiar with the culture/whatnot. You were always the thing, or aspiring to be the thing even before you out of world mechanically qualified to benefit from the rules. Or you are a completely different path and discover something supper cool that you want to train.

[@nekonokenshi4450]

This made me sit down and fully think over the archetypes for possible character ideas. I would love to see videos that cover all of the class options like the barbarian's instinct, champion's cause, etc.

[@Althaven_]

yeah really do need to go back and do more in depth on those.

[@ianross8083]

Aldori Swordlords in four words: ITS TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-D-D-DUEL

[@MagnusMendax7]

The facial hair is back thank god it was the heart of the show to be honest.

[@Althaven_]

Hahahaha! I never thought a KZbin comment would factor in my decision to shave, but here we are.

[@MagnusMendax7]

Don’t worry your guys videos are great with or without the beard, but just saying you’d look mighty wise with a beard.

[@VengenceWolf]

With the Swashbuckler right around the corner, it will be interesting to see how the class (and the dedication feats for it) will interact with the duelist options. Will there be some stepped-on toes?

[@AnthonyTyger]

Or... (as I hope)... loads of synergy. :)

[@Althaven_]

ALL THE SYNERGY!

[@VengenceWolf]

@@Althaven_ or do you think the Swashbuckler Archetype will end up being a more accessible, more customizable dedication which will mostly make Deulist irrelevant other than the fact that there are no ability score requirements for it? So "as long as I have the 14 Dex, Swashbuckler is the clear choice for dedication".

[@kevinbarnard355]

@@VengenceWolf Class dedications (at least so far) seem to be focused on STATs as the primary barrier to entry. Standard replacement for Multiclassing from other editions. I expect all of the "prestige class" archetypes will be region/training/"unique" requirements, but will have in game world connections and consequences. People in the North Eastern regions of Avistan (at the very least) will have heard of the Sword Lords. They are world famous for their fighting style. Random swashbuckler means nothing to the peasantry or even nobility of a city.

[@Trigger99X]

Instant like for the Yu-Gi-Oh! Reference

[@Gutterman-tn2ry]

While rogues do need a two feat dip to get this archetype, rangers only need a one feat dip, and can still be very viable, especially if they are using precision, since they will almost certainly land that one hit per round, and get all the benefits from the duelist. Good stat spread would be something like a 16 18 12 10 12 10, any human heritage (again, you do need that general feat at 1st level, which is limiting).

[@Gutterman-tn2ry]

Forgot that rangers do not need to use finesse, swap the strength and dex for better stat spread, since medium armor will be your go to.

[@scrip3799]

12:00 You can use Saving Slash against any melee critical hit, not just Strikes, so it does work against melee spell attacks like Shocking Grasp! But when Indigo said something about tieflings releasing on Oct 16th?? he must've been thinking of either hobgoblins, leshies, or lizardfolk 😋

[@Althaven_]

he just got his hopes up because tiefling is his favorite

[@josephmcgoldrick1993]

The Aldori Duelist reminds me so much of the blademasters and their heron marked blades, they were so unique and difficult to master or obtain. In the lost omens fluff and crunch, it makes sense on the journey to seek out one of the sword lords or to be a student from the region . But, I do understand the need for more accessible archetypes for homebrew or those that don't want to be railroaded into that region for the mechanics alone. Sorry for the ramblings, guys. Keep it up, love it.

[@Althaven_]

I don't see any rambling. This is a well thought out and elegantly presented point, and I appreciate that you took the time to write it! To be clear, I don't HATE the idea of story driven Archetype prerequisites, I just don't agree with this specific balance. Requiring a geographical location is unnecessarily restrictive IMO. :)

[@josephmcgoldrick1993]

When I was reading it, I was like holy shit blademasters from wheel of time or Cheros the blademaster from David Gemmell's quest for lost heroes. The archetype brought out the fanboy in me, lol

[@freeadvice1695]

Dueling lore would be useful in the age old question of who shot first. That’s about it. But it’s important enough of an issue I think all pathfinder society players should universally take dueling lore from here on out.

[@charlespickering2726]

I think the prereqs from the lost omen world guide other than maybe the living monolity are fine. They are either you have access to this stuff typically casting ability or a specific fancy weapon and its uncommon OR you are from an area where that type of archetype is commonly found. I think people read the uncommon rarity a lot more strictly than what paizo is actually intending. If you are in the broken lands its not uncommon so if you are not from that area but want to learn you go to the part of the world where you can find trainers. Also you could simply locate a trainer of that discipline elsewhere I am sure big cities like absalom have sword lord/dueling clubs. I think the regional granting automatic access is just for society play as a way to make sure they are available if you are in a strict environment.

[@Althaven_]

I think it will just get hand waved most of the time

[@charlespickering2726]

@@Althaven_ that or just a minor amount of role playing. In theory you had to hear about that speciality somehow and you went through some effort to learn how to practice it. I think overall the uncommon rarity is just seen as a lot more of a hard barrier than I believe is intended. Basically it's not all over the place but if you are really interested you can track down a trainer.

[@Sethinnol]

@@Althaven_ Charles is right. Jason and Mark have both stated pretty clearly that uncommon isn't supposed to be a hard barrier to access. Just that the GM should feel okay asking for a little effort. No effort is also fine, though. Travelling to the region would be if you were gaining something rare or unique. And even rare might have an instructor in a large enough city elsewhere.

[@Jay-rb5pg]

Dueling lore is the scene in Princess bride where Inigo and Will fence

[@Althaven_]

My name is Croog. You didn't kill any of my family, but prepare to die anyways.

[@000Dragon50000]

I do reccomend, IF THE STUFF MAKES SENSE WITHIN THE CHARACTER, and that character's story is interesting, handwaving some of those requirements is fine. Having the hard pre-reqs is good for inconveniencing minmaxers whilst only having a limited effect on other types of players.

[@Althaven_]

yeah as someone who is building an assassin it was a huge pain to make the red mantis stuff into my background.

[@Sethinnol]

@@Althaven_ I sort of expect the real assassin class or archetype to land with the APG. Red Mantis has always been it's own thing with heavy lore grounding and restrictions that make it feel very much like a priest.

[@procrastinatinggamer]

Dueling Lore is pretty specific to the region the campaign is in. If there’s no dueling culture there then there wouldn’t be any dueling lore to use (which could be things like notable duels in the past or how a particular duel may have had knock-on effects). EDIT: Also the Aldori Dueling Sword being Uncommon doesn’t affect proficiency - Advanced does, it’s just in the later half you implied uncommon was a problem with the weapon, it was probably just a slip of the tongue but I’ve seen SO MANY people mistake uncommon as a proficiency restriction when it’s literally just how hard it is to find the thing, not use it.

[@Althaven_]

Yeah uncommon is just for the DM use. It was just a slip

[@procrastinatinggamer]

The Broken Lands prereq for the Archetype is more because it’s to represent a cultural tradition specific to that particular region of the world. So you would have to at least have *some* connection to the Broken Lands, even if you’re not actually from there yourself, because you would have to have learned the Aldori style from either an existing Aldori Swordlord (who are basically the rulers in a city in the south of Brevoy) or someone who was trying to join the ranks of the Swordlords themselves. EDIT: Basically it’s the archetype you save for campaigns happening in the Broken Lands (so perfect for that 2e remake of Kingmaker) or very near them. Or for custom settings, the one you save for when the campaign starts in a place with a strong dueling culture. Or if the party passes through such a place around the same time you need to roll up a new character.

[@Althaven_]

I get that's the idea, I just can't see why. Put another way, I can't think of a single justification for this that outweighs "But I want my character to be a duelist". I'd let a player pick this if they were stuck on another plane of existence for their entire back story and the entire campaign because I want their character to feel right to them when they play it more than I want the world's lore to be unmodified. :)

[@procrastinatinggamer]

Oh yeah; you could easily re-flavour it to just be someone who fights *like* an Aldori Duelist. I'd let a player use it no problem, possibly re-worked slightly to be reliant on a different weapon to the Aldori Duelling Sword. Of course; doing that then opens up some *very* interesting roleplay possibilities if the party somehow ends up in Restov and dealing with the *actual* Aldori Swordlords. :P

[@kevinbarnard355]

Yes, and there are specific implications to being a Swordlord. It's similar to being a landed gentry, so you might even have some property rights, obligations to Restov and/or other duties that you might be called upon to fulfill for being an actual Swordlord, and not just a general duelist.

[@Prberts]

One note on the story/region requirements is they are soft locking mutual exclusivity. You can pretty much always have access to one from backstory but to get more than 1 you'd have to have significant story reasons. This sort of combats the ridiculousness of pf1 where you have a bunch of characters running around with 1-2 levels of several supposedly rare elements.

[@jhonjimenez2844]

If it is a matter of meeting the requirements, it is simple: the character may be from that region, have been born or raised there, or that some ancestor was originally from that place. and that either that ancestor or some tutor or teacher has taught you that type of fight either because he wants to leave a descendant, for example in the Zorro movie, who is already an elderly person who trains a young Zorro. ( Anthony Hopkins and Antonio Banderas). You must still meet the proficiency requirements with that specific weapon type by using feats

[@jhonjimenez2844]

I DM an adventure in which one of the players has a rogue level 1 who wants to take the path of an aldori sword lord, in his story he says that he is a bastard of the missing royal family and that he wanted to learn the aldori style but that not having money with which to pay for training, he was sponsored by a nobleman who was his superior and paid him with work. as such he is not an aldori sword lord because he has not reached level 2 and has not taken the dedication feat, but he already had initial training in the sword, for that he had to spend two feats so that he could use this sword . As a dungeon master, I plan to have a meeting with Baron Sirian Aldori himself, but through a limited interdimensional journey, let's say there is a magic mirror that can help you face one of your most cherished dreams. that way you can get a training that will lead you to be a true aldori sword lord

[@smcasas9367]

It's supposed to be a prestige class so it has to have some harder requisites than multiclass dedications. I hope they make a specific Arcane Trickster prestige class because the way you can make one know doesn't really tickle my fancy.

[@RekijanME]

The thing with the prerequisites is that they are the baseline for the Golarion setting, which you briefly touched upon but I think warrants underlying again. Just like the half-orc and half-elf only being available for humans is Golarion specific, so is the entire rarity system and also the region locks. Its a baseline to start from, but the books encourage you to change it if you want your game to differ from the default setting.

[@Dargoni]

Tiefling doesn't come out October 16th, that's next year in the APG

[@Althaven_]

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WANT MY TIEFLING!!!!!

[@mattbelanger8993]

Dueling Lore: Famous scene from Princess Bride where they discuss different fighting techniques.

[@Ironu-xz3jh]

Aldori duelist wizard sounds like a good plan to me.

[@Dedmeetdm]

I just want to make an edgelord Swordlord with Sword Lore! Is that too much to ask!!?

[@Althaven_]

Nope

[@Jay-rb5pg]

You have to play it with a ranger base class and use dual wielding and get a large black pet of some sort not sure what type of animal will fit that.

[@galruchin6463]

Awesome video! I tried looking for a way to negate the "free hand" through adding a caster multiclass but because of the dedication rules, it seems that it won't be possible (or at least, not optimal). Could you do the hellknight armiger archetype next?

[@Althaven_]

a lot of these are pre recorded in a single day so i am not sure if there are a couple in the pipe before but the hellknight is for sure on the list.

[@camerondyer4859]

Coming back to this video, because i was finally able to use this dedication, without it pigeon holding me too greatly, and was able to make a pretty damn fun build. Took getting into a gestalt campaign to do it though lol. The character is a human sorcerer/rogue (thief racket for dex to damage with the finesse dueling sword). So he quickly became an incredibly versatile character, with a solid damage potential.

[@Ulfhrim]

Working on growing that beard back? There is only one right answer.

[@Althaven_]

I'm offended that you needed to ask. I basically feel naked without it. ;)

[@leviangel97]

I might allow dueling lore to let you roll to know if they have attack of opportunity or other similar things

[@kevinbarnard355]

great idea

[@harjutapa]

It makes sense that it's much easier for an Aldori duelist to be a human. Fits the setting/lore, Brevoy (the country where the Aldori school is) is hugely majority human, and every Swordlord I've seen statted out has been human. I haven't seen EVERY swordlord, I'm sure, but it seems like the intent is to make this a class that is primarily human, like bladesinger is primarily elven or half elven.

[@CraigSteinhoff]

To me dueling lore is one on one combat where warfare is group on group combat. I am not sure it is organized "fencing"....

[@Althaven_]

sure but what does that gain you? warfare lore can look at attacking cities which could help you find easy to enter locations. while one of one fighting could give you... information where fight clubs are?

[@CraigSteinhoff]

@@Althaven_ maybe the best ground for footing during a duel or understanding that different weapon traits so you know how to best counteract them. Things like that...

[@Sethinnol]

@@Althaven_ The best damage type (b/p/s) for a given encounter. You might not have Religion, but you recognize that piercing isn't going to deal with the thing made of bones. Identifying weapons and their traits. Identifying fighting styles and stances. Knowing when something seems to have the situational awareness to make an AoO.

[@daviddryden9072]

First thing I thought of for Dueling Lore was the scene from Princess Bride where Westley fights Inigo where they both reference different fencing styles at eachother. Maybe Dueling Lore grants you insight into different styles of dueling or fighting?

[@Frontburner1991]

*Third not thired 🤨

[@joedolph9093]

My OCD was going insane seeing that...

[@Althaven_]

as soon as we can get to a photoshop machine it will be fixed it is killing me too!

[@SergioLeRoux]

They are third rate duelist that also gets really tired sometimes.

[@davidmorgan6951]

Dueling lore can be used to learn all about sword fighting techniques in a one on one fight situation or sword fighting in general (at least as far as I would see it)

[@Althaven_]

sure but what does that get you? As a GM I wouldn't use your lore to give you any sort of advantage in combat. maybe just information if they make big hits or tiny little hits.

[@chloepechlaner7806]

Dueling lore could also help ID famous duelists and any magic items that they might have been known for.

[@blondswanson]

You have a typo in your thumbnail

[@Althaven_]

wow....just...wow

[@JoshTheValiant]

@@Althaven_ I came here just to drop that comment because I don't have time to watch the vid right now. I'm glad someone else already got here. (For the record I'm into "Thired", as long as you lean into it and aren't bummed by it)

[@npaulagain]

Sadly, Tieflings are in the APG which is next july.

[@Althaven_]

Indigo has seen this and already cried about it.

[@Tpunkzilla]

Can we get the ancestry feats breakdown?

[@Althaven_]

Yes, but only because your name is awesome.

[@Jacob-gy6jl]

Check out the Ancient Elf heritage in the Lost Omens Character Guide! It allows you to gain a multiclass dedication feat at level 1 as long as you meet the other prereqs!

[@HuevoBendito]

0:27 IZ DAT A JOJO'S REFERENCE!?

[@Althaven_]

if you want it to be

[@Kingneo0053]

I'm digging the flavor, but not entirely sure how good it is yet. You can spend an action to essentially get a Ranger Parry/Shield Bonus. You can get a Quick Draw and initiative boost with a single feat. You can potentially downgrade a critial hit if you get lucky and roll a 16+. Everything else relies on your foe critically failing a roll, which I'm not sure how common that will be. Sucks to invest in something and have it never proc. I'm almost wondering if they should replace the crit conditions for these abilities. They requires checks anyway so it's not too game breaking Aldori Riposte They fail to hit you. You get a Reaction Attack or Disarm. Can only be used while their version of Parry is up. (Having it proc off Parry also fits into the patience theme. You're at most attacking twice to keep the Parry up. If they are successfully disarmed then it''s harder for them to attack you, which fits into the purpose of Parry.) Unnerving Prowess You succeed with your Reaction Attack or Disarm. They are flat footed until the end of your next turn. (You disrupted their body positioning by successfully attacking at the right time. Now you're in a better position to crit them. Fits into that patience theme and getting rewarded for it.)

[@Althaven_]

i think if this is the Theme you want to go with it is great. but i agree not sure if it is "strong"

[@Sethinnol]

One thing I'll add is that, while first attacks won't crit fail as often, 2nd or 3rd attacks do much, much more often. It's just that usually it doesn't matter. This feat, though, allows you to punish crit fails in a way that attackers aren't used to. Might make them think twice before taking that second or third swing.

[@kevinbarnard355]

@@Sethinnol That's a very good point.

[@melorbode]

Sheilds are AWESOME in real life. Soldiers carry shields, Gentility carry rapiers...in real life shields are effective.

[@nightbane727]

The dueling lore makes sense if you were a gladiator actually so that might be the background to use just a thought

[@jackeldridge4225]

So if you take multiple dedication feats, and complete all of them does that make you a... Archlord?

[@brothermutant7370]

Have you guys covered Magus class or the Dragon Disciple yet? Are they still a thing? Hope so, I liked both.

[@Althaven_]

not yet. but we will hopefully get there soon enough

[@brothermutant7370]

SQUEE!!!!

[@alexandersmith9144]

Love the Yugioh reference! 🤣.

[@Althaven_]

Hahaha! Was wondering if anyone got it

[@SerDerpish]

Which book is this from? Is this an early access thing?

[@Althaven_]

it is from the lost omens world guide. it is already out

[@SerDerpish]

QueueTimes that’s awesome; more books to spend my money on which I will never use 😅🤔😭

[@cidlunius1076]

Couldn't this just be re-flavored for anybody trying to be a defensive front liner with parries and make the weapon anything melee? I'm trained in scythes, my grandma taught me to cut wheat do well I deflect crows off the field. Some people call me The Grim Wheater.

[@undrhil]

*third

[@Althaven_]

ssssshhhhhh... it will be fixed. thank you! lol

[@BenjCano2020]

That is the most annoying open to a video.