The Peacock Dress: What Could the Museum Have Done Better?

Cathy Hay has been working on the Peacock Dress for nearly a decade, but in light of the recent discussion about the dress' colonial history, the project is taking a sharp turn.
While I am not excusing Cathy Hay for not addressing the colonial history of the Peacock Dress sooner, I do want to take a look at the place where it was displayed and interpreted: Kedleston Hall. Museums are colonial institutions that help to perpetuate euro-centric stories of the elite through history. BUT museums are in the process of making changes to their mandates and are slowly beginning the slow process of de-colonization. So lets talk about it!
Thank you to Nami Sparrow and Cathy Hay for speaking with me and providing me with video and images used in this video. Thank you also to Kedleston Hall for their reply to my email.
Godspeed to the National Trust in their efforts.
If you would like to watch Nami Sparrows Video about the Peacock dress click here:
• The Peacock Dress is P...
If you want to watch Cathy Hay’s September Peacock Dress video, click here:
• Peacock Dress: Sept 20...
Interim Report on the Connections between Colonialism and Properties now in the Care of the National Trust Including Links with Historic Slavery: nt.global.ssl....
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[@professorpeachez]

Sorry the men in this video sound American, the store was fresh out of Brits

[@kinghenryxl1747]

I’m glad that you covered this. Many Brits are in denial of the horrors of colonialism. They prefer to hold on to the sanitized “Pax Britannia” myth.

[@Hope-un5wv]

@@kinghenryxl1747 Actually many Brits are still trying to overcome the consequences of the Enclosures Acts.

[@phillipstroll7385]

I'm so sick of people today. They are so emotionally and mentally crippled they create their own drama just to feel like they matter. If these nations were so great they wouldn't have been conquered. No greater losses to a lesser. Never. I'm all for the dress. If this sjw bs continues I'll have twelve of them made. Fk these imbeciles. They should be proud of the work those people did and celebrate it. Not attempt to erase them from history.

[@clevm002]

Actually many 'brits' (of which, I am one) are well educated in this sort of stuff and it's a rare thing we are actually taught in school. This is about a specific case. Don't start thinking that Brits are oblivious to their history.

[@kinghenryxl1747]

@@clevm002 Oh please, your towns still have statues of slave traders😒 GTFOH

[@chrish2277]

The Peacock Dress is an excellent tool to remind us of the true cost of colonisation. Until Cathy Hay's videos on the dress and Nicole Rudolph's series of videos on fabric origins, I was not aware of the true scale of colonial abuse in India and I'm sure this is true for many others. If presented the right way it could be a very good thing to raise awareness.

[@Kindnessmatters2]

So true...this is a necessary piece of history that tells an important story.

[@alexpond648]

True, it was a political statement. The peacock throne was removed and in it's very room where it stood, they held the ball. They destroyed Indian royalty, Indians power and fabric industry. They transformed it, made it British. She was wearing the regalia of Indian royalty showing them their new place. The wealth and industrial revolution of Britain was directly linked with sucking India dry of it's resources, while hindering it's progress. Kathy Hay gave the "Indian guys", that made the embroidery an identity and gave the dress it's significance in portraying colonisation. Personaly I think she has done good, while making this dress, for the awareness of it's history and what Britain realy did to India. History is history and can't be changed, some counties are just better with sugar coating the truth and forgetting the ugly parts of past achivements. It was a forotten item, but it's truth is still current. Many of us still buy cheap clothes made by children and slaves and if it's not the clothes is's the fabrics. Realy nothing much has changed and it's not just India.

[@mione3690]

Thats really rich of those mps to complain about rewriting history. History has been rewritten for ages. The whole peacock dress discussion has actually made people realise more of the real history that was glossed over.

[@Lela-plants]

Thank you! That’s what I said. To me Cathy Hay is honoring those who made the original dress. No matter the How of it; it is a beautifully made garment. They were artisans who deserve the be recognized. Her project was doing that. This is a 10 year love affair for Cathy and I’ve no doubt at the respect she has for the artisans who made it. Clothes are made in other countries today. I get there was a colonial aspect but at that time it was viewed as “made in Indonesia” is on our clothes today. Granted , the fact that she could afford to buy it from Worth speaks to her economic status, but lots of wealthy women wore Worth. I’m torn on the ethics but remaking a dress should not cause this controversy. It is highly personal for Cathy. She was making a dress she loved and shared the process. She shouldn’t be raked over the coals for it.

[@bcase5328]

@@Lela-plants Also, Cathy Hay's remaking the Peacock Dress is a source of income to the craftsmen in India, (without pay we all lose people who have such knowledge and skill); and the occasion of the Dress being remade is not automatically an endorsement of British Colonialism. Yes, craftsmen should be paid more. Yes, colonialism and other darker parts of history should be discussed. Yes, there is still exploitation. That is not limited to across governmental lines nor to across racial lines.

[@EH23831]

Deeply ironic!! 😖

[@datafoxy]

I like how one of them is a Lord and have ancestral wealth for a couple. They are the privileged.

[@luca.desu.2590]

@@bcase5328 the embroidery atelier Cathy Hay was going to hire (who turned down the work in the end for several reasons, including the painful associations with the specific dress) have stated they are not wanting for commissions. On the contrary, they are part of a robust industry and are not looking for work handouts.

[@shevuansereday6536]

Kathy Hay is the reason why you were abel to find the name of the embroiders. She researched and found the name of the embroidery house. Then got the museum to change the website information to credit the embroidery house.

[@valolafson6035]

Which is lovely, but doesn't mean this dress needs to be recreated.

[@sophiesong8937]

And having done that, there is no failure in choosing to now let the project go, having contributed some positive research to the world.

[@GoddessTara923]

@@sophiesong8937 if you invest a decade into making something. why would she have to stop when every museum in the world has stolen Colonial artefacts that are reproduced into souvenirs far less respectful then hay. Also it wasn't stolen art it was commissioned designed and sewn in the UK. Same as today we get China and India to make our goods cheep and put a label on it and sell for a fortune.

[@sophiesong8937]

@@GoddessTara923 Because she can do better than to behave in the way museums did. As mentioned in the video, museums are grappling with their colonial roots and how to return stolen artifacts and decolonise their interpretation. At this point, Cathy has contributed to that effort by shedding light on the history of the dress and its makers. Her contribution is not dependent on her completing the dress. But Cathy is an individual who is acting as a role model. She doesn't need the concensus of trustees, board members or other stake holders to choose her actions, so she can respond faster to new information. Saying that Cathy could call this project complete without producing the dress does not imply that museums should not be held to the same standard. But if we just do whatever we want because noone else is doing better, then we never move forward.

[@biguattipoptropica]

@@GoddessTara923 okay so the dress was made for colonizers celebrating colonization by wearing a colonized dress. Please tell me how that can be separated from the recreation. Genuinely, I want to understand your logic here.

[@merriehightower1481]

I have learned so much about Colonialization since Cathy has started her series, it definitely begs for changes in the history that is being taught. I don’t think Cathy deserves the mental torture she is getting from people. I would love to see the work in progress in India, let’s give credit where it is due, and tell the history of it. What a wonderful opportunity to tell the whole story. Maybe a internationally televised documentary???? A film that can tour with the dress to teach about what happened and what should never happen again.

[@apocalypticexcavator5454]

I'm completey fresh in this topic, could you briefly explain why the community is mad with her? Is it about the fact that they perceive her recreation of the dress as celebrating it (and the historical events that enabled its creation)?

[@bonniehyden962]

When I was a Junior in high school, I lived in Nome, Alaska and I worked for a lady who owned a gift shop with a small Inuit Museum in back. As a Sr, the owner asked me to take over leading the tours through the museum. My employer pretty much left me a script and told me to handle it all as I wished. My approach was to start out by telling my group that I had only recently come to learn what I was about to tell them and if they asked questions I didn't know if do my best to find out. I've visited people at their hotel rooms to answer their questions after speaking with Inuit Elders. I've written letters to visitors to do the same. (this was early '80's so no internet or cell phones) I learned more, my employer learned more and my visitors learned more. ... knowledge is never a bad thing if we see and interpret it in a true context and not just through our own personal lenses of perception.

[@Liz_678]

The craftsmanship is to be admired! The history can’t and shouldn’t be erased! We learn from history, so we do not make the same mistakes!

[@amandalavelle2638]

I found this very interesting. I live quite close to Kedleston Hall so for me, that is my local museum. I’ve visited many many times since childhood and have therefore seen the peacock dress and it’s accompanying displays multiple times. When I first saw it I think i was about 18 yrs old when the museum had recently acquired the dress. The meaning and history of the dress were completely lost on me, I just viewed it ignorantly as this beautiful expensive dress, and very much focused on learning how it was being preserved, and what it must have been like to wear something that heavy etc etc. The word colonialism was never uttered. At school we ‘studied’ the Victorian period and it was mentioned that Queen Victoria became Empress of India, but it really didn’t go much further into what that actually meant. (I would hope this is still not the case in schools now- I was at school in the 80’s and 90’s). As mentioned, I live near Kedleston, which is also near Cromford and Richard Arkwright’s cotton mills. We did huge history projects on Cromford and the industrial revolution, but yet again the teaching seemed to stop before we could analyse too closely where the cotton was coming from, and the consequences on that original country. I think it was just briefly stated the cotton was shipped from abroad and that was about it. As I’ve gotten older and educated myself more, it was only then that I started looking at these buildings and displays around me with fresh eyes. When I last saw the peacock dress a few years ago it left me feeling quite uneasy. I think there was also a display of all these Indian ivory artefacts next to it or in another room as well. I had my young children with me and one of them asked me what the Ivory was and I had a very uncomfortable time trying to tell him, but I thought it was important that he should know and it shouldn’t be glossed over. My kids are both autistic and very factual and logical- you can’t get away with glossing over anything. What I will say for Kedleston is though, back in 2018 they did a huge exhibition on the 100 years of women first obtaining the vote. They were very up front in confronting the fact that Lord Curzon had deeply opposed women’s emancipation, and did not paint him in a favourable light. So I therefore have hope that they will also be able to confront the colonial history that Kedleston has and educate more thoroughly, inclusively, and responsibly in the future. Sorry for that long comment- I just wanted to illustrate that even though I have grown up with the profits of colonialism literally on my doorstep, I was never once in my schooling forced to confront this, and I’m sure there’s many that still choose not to do so even now. I love where I live- I walk along Cromford canal and in the park at Kedleston- I’m a national trust member and passionately believe in the conversation work they do. I just feel that we have a responsibility and debt to fully depict our history. And as a side note- if those ‘common sense’ mp’s were members of our current government, that’s a contradiction in itself, as in my experience and opinion, there’s precious little of common sense shared around the whole bunch of them! I’ll shut up now xx

[@alexandraaaron9705]

✨Thank You! I Appreciate Your Perspective💖

[@juliesanderson9184]

I live near kedleston too, I went to school 20 years before you, we didn’t even cover Arkwright in industry Th first time I saw the peacock dress was in the 90 s. I was blown away by the embroidery. I can clearly remember there was hardly any information, but I clearly remember seeing a picture of lady cue on travelling to the ball on the back of an elephant, with a solid silver howdah(?), the elephant was totally covered in silver, and in the background were what looked like very poor people lining the road. I actually felt sick - so much ostentation - to me it felt very ‘in English’! I went home and looked up the history of Indian colonies - I was totally shocked. I don’t think Canadians/Americans realise that we have never been taught these things Roots was broadcast on tv when I was 15. That was the first time my school friends and I knew that there had been slaves ( apart from the Romans -we knew all about the Romans)

[@sandie157]

@@juliesanderson9184 So well put. Roots was a huge eye opener. I just got bits and pieces of it because my mum thought it too too harsh and violent for us children. She was right. But imagine what is was tor the people themselves.

[@hameley12]

Amanda L. Beautifully well said 👏👏👏 I fell into this interesting world of historic garments, the history of the UK and colonialism and slavery by accident. I was completely oblivious to the main facts, once I began watching and reading books; after Bernadette Banner and Cathy Hay's videos. I wondered if the historians/ museums were updating all this information in recent years, it isn't until I watched The Making of the Peacock dress by Cathy Hay that I realized there is still so much more to learn and teach to the next generation. Not the "why continue to have this mindset" but "how can we re-learn, teach them what happened and how to avoid thinking this way and make better decisions on historical preservation of clothing, houses, or documents or extinct animals, and improve that information over time, so our love and appreciation for one another becomes clearer" Thank you!

[@dylanfeeney9904]

This is ridiculous. I find the very notion that someone can't reproduce a dress simply because the original represented a bad time in history. It's like saying museums can't have reproductions of Nazi Uniforms or Southern Confederate Soilder Uniforms for the exact same reason. It's just a reproduction. She's not out there advocating for the re colonization of India is she?

[@blktauna]

Thank you! I understand the desire for bringing up the history of the dress and its context, but Thats no reason to not figure out how this dress is made.

[@dylanfeeney9904]

@@blktauna Exactly! The history of the dress, the people who made it and the time it was made in should be brought to light. I understand not glorifying colonialism, that's a bad thing to do and would push aside those who suffered under it but a reproduction like this is showing off the immense craftsmanship and skill it took to make such a garment. The ironic thing is without her starting this reproduction and doing hours of meticulous research we wouldn't have known the name of the Indian embroidery company that worked on the dress just the English company that commissioned it. So long as she's not white washing history or advocating for the re colonization of India or other ex owned brittish colonies then I don't see any problem.

[@Lilas.Duveteux]

I also don't see the issue there. I also don't think being ashamed of something and being proud of something should be mutually exclusive.

[@beachkatz9639]

We are all victims of our history and it’s called history for a reason, it’s in the past and this dress is a historical piece worth seeing ,the exquisite work it took to make this dress should not be overlooked it should be celebrated for it’s time in history.

[@Bella-gj6wc]

Well, my two cents are, the British “took” from all the colonies, they were in, whether it was Canada, the West Indies, or India. IF the House of Worth could have found someone English to make that dress, they probably would have. Make no mistake the British didn’t just impose themselves in India (or wherever), they also provided these people with a different way of life, and brought many into the light of progress. So, while we can look back at ALL our history, we have to learn from it, embrace it, in all its ugliness, and MOVE ON, trying to do better.

[@seansaunders3840]

I do wish that you would point out the exhaustive research that Cathy has done on this dress, it’s origins, and her acknowledgement of the painful past it represents.

[@mellie4174]

Agreed. She even found pictures of the Indian artists... Much more than the museum ever did and it just gets ignored.

[@ms.osstorytime4781]

It doesn't get ignored. But it doesn't change the symbolism of the dress.

[@seansaunders3840]

@@ms.osstorytime4781 I’m not suggesting that it does, what I am suggesting is that in this video, when Cathy was mentioned it was as if to say she is ignorant, and knew nothing about the history of the dress.

[@idasvenning3892]

Cathy acknowledging this or that has nothing to do with this video though. Sure, she dug up unknown info about the workshop (I think?) but she has nothing to do with how Kedleston Hall has been interpreting the dress over the last decade. No need to get hurt on her behalf lol

[@seansaunders3840]

@@idasvenning3892 my only point in all of this was to say, that the maker of this video, while mentioning Cathy, came across as belittling and or diminishing of the work that Cathy has done, which has shaped the changed what the museum is listing about the dress.

[@davederrick9431]

I feel it's a shame that you didn't reference the fact that Cathy Hay had continually identified the abuse of the Indian people. Secondly the Indian weaver's identity has now been added to the description with the dress, which I believe is attributed to Cathy. I am please we all have the right to express our own opinions.

[@brendaryan306]

I agree. This video started with a nose in the air and snark. It just seems like she decided to make a little KZbin money off of Cathy Hay's endeavor.

[@SewSewDrew]

I have learned so much through this whole peacock dress situation. I must say I have throughly enjoyed the experience.

[@joannemcmillan9201]

I too know quite a bit about the history of this dress. If Cathy Hay had not been obsessed with recreating it would we have. I think though there is a segment of the community who doesn’t understand that no matter what they recreate it could bring up bad vibes for POC. It might do for them to listen to the voices of the people this effects most. I’m hearing quite a few people of Indian ancestry say make the dress. This is my 4th video about this.

[@SewSewDrew]

@@joannemcmillan9201 same!

[@robintheparttimesewer6798]

I’ve learned a lot as well. Both about India and the crafts that originated there.

[@tK-be6ns]

There is an opportunity for Keddleston Hall to partner with Cathy Hay. Once the dress is complete, and the construction mockups, small scale skirt, a second set of the underclothes to display could go on display at the hall, along with other Indian arts and crafts that may have been on display at the 1903 durbar. An exhibition can explore the colonial impact in India etc. Cathy has already done some of the research.

[@MissCaraMint]

This is a pretty good idea.

[@tK-be6ns]

In recreating the skirt, Cathy found that it was made as one rectangle embroidered with the feather pattern, then adjusted into a skirt shape by HoW. If it wasn't recreated would we have known the extent of the Embroidery house's contribution(>80%)?

[@cynthiabasil8356]

The woman who wore the dress was an American from Chicago who was sold along with a large dowry by her parents for an English title a "dollar princesses" and was very much viewed as property. This is part of the story that shouldn't be ignored.

[@gregmunro1137]

I think the workmanship of this dress and the crafts people who made it, should be celebrated while acknowledging the faults of the British Empire. Failure to acknowledge the fine craftsmen and celebrate their talent negates the work of the original men who worked on it. It can be a celebration of beautiful work and a lesson on how The British Empire acted. We can not judge history based on today’s standards. We can not change the past, nor can we live there - we can make changes, so the facts are known and we don’t make those mistakes again. Change can only happen when people make an effort.

[@melissamybubbles6139]

It's not fair to say that Cathy hadn't addressed the history of the dress or its implications. She had done so before this latest September update. It makes you less credible.

[@mellie4174]

Yup

[@jom7369]

Both of them came out with their videos at the same time lolol

[@melissamybubbles6139]

@@jom7369 Actually, if you'd watched Cathy's channel, you'd know that she'd already talked about why she wanted to use the dress to educate people about how bad British colonialism in India was. Think before you laugh.

[@beckymerchant4678]

@@melissamybubbles6139 Actually, you would know Cathy NEVER mentioned the background of the dress until other people brought it up. She only made the first video a year a go after tons of people pointed out the dress's nefarious history. The second video was more or less a response to another You Tuber's video and to try an appease people who were rightfully angry about a white woman recreating a dress worn as a Trophy over India and its people. Only her sycophants didn't see through the charade. What's worse, is she had another white woman discussing the issues with racism and symbolism and so on.

[@melissamybubbles6139]

@@beckymerchant4678 You can be unfair if you want to. It doesn't look good, but you can do it.

[@yrcanlitprof1144]

Interesting controversy Christeah. I know the Peacock Dress from studying Curzon and his wife and their time in India -- she was also immensely rich in her own right, and would have been benefitting from the exploitation of the poor wherever she chose to display that wealth. Curzon himself was hated by many government British/Raj people, because he was considered a liberal and tried to reform the court system to make it more fair to Indians. I sympathize with the museum curators who have to try to get all these complications into their interpretation. You can't really put "they were rich a-holes" on a text panel.

[@amandamccallum6796]

If the recreation of this dress has brought up conversations about the effects of colonization then it's absolutely worth having and showing it.

[@emmabovary1228]

So long as some people can go back 200 years to complain about issues that have everything to do with a dress, Right?!

[@Bunny-ch2ul]

Okay, I have some major issues with the anger surrounding this dress, and not in the most obvious ways you'd expect. I have a degree in fashion production, and used to work for a museum specializing in fashion. 1. Museums really need to make tough choices when it comes to what information is displayed. Explaining how a dress is a symbol of colonialism, while giving the more traditional history (who wore it, who designed it, for which occasion, what it's made of, etc.) is a *lot* for one plaque. Some museums address this better than others with supplemental laminated cards with more in depth descriptions and such, but there really isn't a one size fits all solution. If you provide too much information to visitors, they may not read *any* of it. 2. Museums have to strike a very delicate balance between evolving with the times, attracting new visitors, appealing to older patrons, and appealing to donors. In many cases, donors make up the bulk of a museum's funding, and most donors aren't young and woke. They're frequently more likely to be of the "Winston Churchill Fan Club" ilk. Given the choice between preserving our cultural heritage, or having to cut museum staff, or close museums, I'd have to side with preserving cultural heritage and hope that future generations take a more enlightened approach towards it. It's a very difficult balance, one that the general public *rarely* understands. (Frankly, if you want to see a specific point of view discussed, donate. Become a member. Setting the agenda is one of the biggest perks of being a member/donor/board member. That might not be feasible on most budgets for The Met, but you can certainly work with a smaller local museum.) 3. I find the discussion of colonialism around this dress to be pretty rich considering how most clothes today are made. *DO NOT POINT FINGERS ABOUT ABUSE, SLAVERY, COLONIALISM, HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, ETC. IF YOU BUY FROM WALMART, TARGET, JC PENNEY, FOREVER XXI, FASHIONNOVA, KOHLS, ETC, ETC, ETC.* The conditions that most garment workers in the developing world work under are appalling. This is a direct result of colonialism, and/or neo colonialism. If your clothes are made in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, India, and even China, there is a good chance that they were made in sweatshops, by workers being paid starvation wages, with forced labor, or by children. While I think The Peacock Dress is a great symbol of colonialism, *if* it's to be used to teach about colonialism in the past, it should also be explained to patrons that there are similar systems in place today. If you buy cheap clothes (Walmart, Target, etc.) or fast fashion (H&M, Forever XXI, Fashionnova, etc.) you're buying clothing that required the exploitation of people in the developing world to create. If you're going to damn The Peacock Dress, you also need to take a hard look at the clothes in your own closet. What I find exasperating about making museums more woke is that there is almost never any talk of explaining how patterns and systems of the past have lasting impacts today. Just damning the problematic aspects of the past isn't nearly enough. You have to recognize similar patterns today. Teaching people about the ills of the past is of absolutely no use if they don't know how to apply those lessons to their own lives. Frankly, if you're not going to go the extra step and explain how patterns of the past impact or are mirrored, today, I say leave the romance intact, and just display the dress as a sparkly relic of the past. At the end of the day, Lady Curzon shouldn't be damned for wearing a dress that relied on the exploitation of colonized workers any more than someone today with a closet stuffed with fast fashion.

[@katherinec2759]

This is a really good counter-point to a lot of the rhetoric out there right now.

[@janemarriott3389]

Thank you, Kathy Hey, for sharing your highly personal journey with total transparency and open honest humility. I, and so many others are benefiting greatly. Harsh judgment squelches meaningful growth and change. I am grateful and look forward to more dialogue.

[@VoodooAngel63]

I wonder what those very talented artisans who actually embroidered that dress felt about the work they were doing. Do you suppose that they were proud of the beautiful masterpiece of their art that they created? Perhaps recreating this dress, the Ms. Hay is doing, celebrates their skill and their talent. Do you suppose the modern embroiderers who are working on it are happy to be working on something so beautiful. I understand the evils that colonialization perpetrated and continues to do so. However, not recreating the dress because of the way it was originally produced would be absurd. It is a thing of beauty, a masterpiece of the embroiderer's art and should be recognized as such.

[@nicolethijs5428]

That was the first thing I thought about! How frustrated they must have been . Its if their work has no value once again! Cathy should make this dress if only to celbrate those peoples superb craft! But I see she abandent the project. I am very sad about that if only for this reason.

[@VoodooAngel63]

@@nicolethijs5428 I saw that she has moved on with a new project. I think the controversy was taking just too much of a toll on her.

[@nicolethijs5428]

@@VoodooAngel63 I know and I found that extremely sad that she was bullied in to that. She spend hundreds of hours in it and hundreds of hours in reseach and the thousands that have to be paid to the embroiderers who did all this work in vain now! Thats the saddest thing of all!

[@argusfleibeit1165]

It seems like some of you think all the evils of the British Empire will be overturned by making Cathy Hay quit making a dress. I'd hazard that a lot of you knew nothing about the British Empire before this dress recreation came to light.

[@biguattipoptropica]

I think it's more the symbolism of a white person prioritizing the people they hurt for once. It's a minor act that makes people feel safer.

[@Lela-plants]

Thank you. This is the Cause of the Day it seems. If you have followed Kathy for any length of time you know just how much this dress means to her. How much time she has spent figuring out how it was made- the process. Not to mention how much of her own money she has spent on this. This is truly a labor of love for her... It is about vintage fashion and the fact that nobody makes clothing like that anymore. The fast fashion designs we get from sweatshops in China won’t be here in 150 years to have these discussions over. (Where’s the righteous indignation over those? ) It’s not fair what they’re doing to her.

[@susiehowey4141]

My goodness… finally a video that is smart, informative and not at all in your face trying to sway a response based on sensationalism. Thank you for your care and hard work researching the content in this video. I adore Cathy Hay, and have so so much respect for her. Her dedication to recreating that amazing piece of history and her appreciation of the art, frankly confounds me. She is not trying to make a statement in support of colonialism… in the slightest. She is a very educated woman, that has worked hard to be sure that she is true to the design, the craftsmanship and the real history of the gown. I too am Canadian. I am a film maker… and as I write this I am sitting on the Tk’emlups reservation lands… knowing that just feet away from me, unspeakable atrocities were inflicted upon the indigenous children that attended here… in the name of colonialism, and namely church and the Queen. It’s appalling to think that there are organizations like “The Common Sense Group “ that would prefer to brush over these acts of horror that the the British inflicted upon so many nations. I don’t believe that people should tear down statues, or desecrate monuments… but as you say… display the truth!!! Erect monuments to the people… acknowledge their suffering. Change now so future generations can live in a place free of oppression. My Irish husband can talk for days on the brutality if the British…,and how the Choctaw nation scraped together $170 in 1843 (a lot of money in those days by people that were poor and had just lost thousands of their own on the trail of tears) and sent it to Ireland because they had heard that the Irish people were starving to death. Because the British land lords were taking what little food they had. The Irish people did erect a beautiful monument in honour of the Choctaw’s generosity. And in solidarity with them, when COVID hit, and the Cherokee and Navajo people were in mortal peril … the Irish people raised close to $5 million euros … for them. So the Common Sense people can go get f…..

[@robintheparttimesewer6798]

Well said. As a fellow Canadian and a native I couldn’t agree more! Besides I got the email common sense is dead has been gone for years. It was a beautiful obituary. It’s not surprising that this is such a divisive topic. There’s good points on both sides of the argument. But attacks on Cathy aren’t except able. Especially as there was no historical context in the beginning. The world is changing dark topics are being brought out into the light. That’s always a hard time adding a pandemic into the mix really isn’t helping. Cathy has worked hard to bring out a number of the shades of grey in the history of this dress. I personally would like to see her complete it.

[@mellie4174]

@@robintheparttimesewer6798 @Robin The Parttime Sewer i couldn't agree more. Definitely discussion is a must, but the attacks are unacceptable and frankly she has exposed the ugly past of this dress and that is being totally ignored. This needs to be a reasoned discussion and i don't think we can just erase the dress, refuse research in the dress (which passes by reconstruction as this is how they figure out how it was made ), or deny people the right to study the dress because of thier skin color. I hope she finishes it. I hope that she does some videos on the artists both historical and current, the colonial past, and the lingering consequences if colonialism today using the dress as the jumping off point, but i do hope she finishes too. Thanks for sharing!

[@lizagervais8621]

I, too, am a fellow Canadian. I discovered Cathy Hay’s videos a few months ago and enjoy them immensely. I have learned a lot about history from her, especially in the context of the Peacock dress. Living in Canada, another British colonization project, the discussions surrounding the dress always make me think of Canada’s (and before that the British Empire’s) treatment of our Indigenous peoples. I am ashamed of and furious about the treatment of the peoples who lived on this land long before British and French immigrants came here. They say history is written by the winners, but both sides of history need to be exposed and discussed. Rarely is the winner 100% honourable in their thoughts and actions.

[@lastchancemonicam3948]

Fun fact about museums? They are actually either Egyptian or Hellenic in origin: literally, "Muse- aeon," a time and place to study the art of the muses. They were meant as places where people could study music, literature, and dance. The first known use if a museum for scholarly research is in Egypt during the reign of Queen Cleopatra where she contacted the "museaeon at Alexandria" (probably the library there) to learn how to handle the nile not flooding correctly during the first four years of her reign. Thus she indicated that museums had changed from studying art to studying many other things.

[@lilindil1250]

As a Welsh person we are not taught in schools the full history of colonisation and have been given a white washed view of it along with the compleye lack of our own history against the English and British Government. I'm not shocked that the Conservatives want to keep to the current ways of whitewashing or some 'British' peoples lack of wanting to discuss important issues of our nasty history. It needs to start with early education and we need to remove this old 'British' way of not talking about uncomfortable discussions.

[@imitalian1963]

All you ever do is talk and talk and shove your opinion down everyone's throat like it's the only one that is right or matters. It's no more than word vomit from a society who has been spoon fed to feel guilt over a past that EVERY SINGLE CULTURE has pushed on another people at some point in time. Go after the leaders not a group of people of a political party. JEEZ the ignorance of people is shocking..

[@argusfleibeit1165]

@@imitalian1963 But what does the political party stand for, and why do people join it, support it, and vote for it? Why should they not be held accountable for putting their policies into place, when their policies may have been responsible for causing harm to groups of people? The voters give the leaders the power. As a metaphor, just because men have always raped women, does not mean we have to not examine the situation, just ignore it and hope it goes away. So if cultures have overrun each other and exploited the conquered, don't we have a responsibility to examine what happened, what was lost, and who is now benefitting from long-ago conquests?

[@imitalian1963]

@@argusfleibeit1165 I vote for the party who matches up with my personal moral and economic values. For instance I want the govt to be as small as possible and my personal values are conservative in nature. Both parties have their own issues on policy. Dems were the party who were originally the racists in the US and their votes against civil and equal rights are well documented. Now they supposedly fight for blacks but it seems to me they've kept them down and trapped and dependent. Who's the real oppressor there? My perspective is not your reality and vice versa. An opinion is fine as long as you treat it as such instead of assuming yours is the only valid one

[@argusfleibeit1165]

@@imitalian1963 The reality is in today's America, the only two parties we can vote for with any hope of getting a majority are the Democrats and Republicans. The reality is that today's Republican Party is not the party of Lincoln, or even Eisenhower. Their policies are built on cruelty and neglect of the needs of people, and putting a minority government into place by surpressing voting rights. And their "small government" rhetoric translates only to serving the rich, by cutting taxes and not funding social needs. If you want to accuse the Democrats of racism by going back before the Nixon administration, anybody will tell you that Nixon's "Southern Strategy" marked the time when Southern Democrats who ruled over the Jim Crow South switched over to the Republicans. Nixon appealed directly to the supporters of George Wallace, who stood up against the desegregation of the schools in the south, which the Civil Rights Act of 1964, ushered through Congress by Johnson and the non-Southern Democrats. Don't be disingenuous and think that you can get away with nonsense. You don't care about the rights of minorities, women, children, the elderly, disabled, or the working class and poor people, if your soapbox is "small government". Anybody nowadays who fails to vote to keep the fascist Republican party out of power is by default endorsing their anti-American grab for minority rule, by any means necessary.

[@imitalian1963]

@@argusfleibeit1165 totally not on board with that whole rhetoric... sounds like you took all the jargon against conservatives you've heard and copy pasted it here. I see cruelty in ALL government. That you would favor any of them shows your true allegiance... I'm for truth , honor, justice, moral fiber and economic freedom. None of the crap you just spewed at me. Both parties have become corrupt. The corruption is so deep both parties depend on distractions like this to keep people pitted against each other. Oh my word..

[@artikcreations8027]

In 1984 I was working for a company in London UK which embroidered and beaded garments for fashion. There was ladies that work in studio and outdoor worker who worked from home. It all changed with a huge order for 500 fully beaded dresses and the boss for the first time sent them to India for beading. I asked him how much do the India people get paid and he told me 50 pence a day and a bowl of rice. I was shocked that this was a good wage, I was getting £60 a week and that was low. If I worked in a shop I would have had £15 for the day. When I was young it was hard to believe someone was getting so little for such lovely work.

[@juliebeans7323]

We are having a lot of arguments etc here in Australia too. So many people want to just forget, but at the same time many are forcing the past of one region to th whole of the country. Not everyone was treated like Bennelong (which was also abhorrent and two faced), but not all areas suffered the massacres either. Not all white settlers were nasty, many tried to learn from and understand the indigenous people - that said, not all experiences were positive for either side. As a descendant of the First Fleet, as well as subsequent fleets, i feel it is my duty to understand what happened from both perspectives. So much is not told. Our museum is trying to get the discourse going, but like Britain, many don't want to hear. Cathy has shed tears over the controversy she's inadvertently created - I know in my heart she wants to tell the stories as best she can - but one dress cannot tell them all.

[@mellie4174]

Truth! One dress and one person cannot tell them all.

[@marvellousmrsmoller]

I am grateful for a glimpse from a museum's perspective. Knowing that how things are presented influences how the viewer thinks about them, I think that we are shaped by what those around us know and tell. It saddens but doesn't surprise me that Cathy would have only recently become aware of the magnitude of the negative side of the history of a dress she thought a good challenge to replicate. Also Australian, I suspect we and others in previous colonies have the advantage over our contemporaries educated in the country those colonial benefits came home to. We have been more publicly discussing the colonial issues for both descendants of colonisers and for indigenous people for a while. So I want to acknowledge that Cathy has possibly gone further already than most people in her situation and surrounded by that culture might have done. There is more to be understood, that can be seen by those not in the middle. But it might only be possible to shift perceptions a certain amount in one go. Ignorance cultivated society wide was convenient and has consequences now. I guess this awakening and grappling with the unpopularity of inadequacy of what is already her best effort may be extremely painful for Cathy Hay and for others like her. From my limited reading of the situation I think the dress should be made and then very publicly NOT worn. I think that making it gives the opportunity to investigate even more fully the exploitation and expectation, the triumphalism of colonialism and the dismissive trivialisation of the effects on those conquered and those brutalised by being the conquerors both then and now ongoing. Display the finished replication alongside the original. Make the construction and the detailed intricacy of the embroidery craftsmanship obvious. Use this as a means of opening the subject to public view and educate those who have been previously kept ignorant. Fulfill the promise to those who crowdfunded that the dress would be made, and use it for good.

[@flannerypedley840]

@@marvellousmrsmoller Also coming from that colonial nation, Australia, I think our discussions are still repressed and silenced (call something "the history wars" and see what happens - "the black arm band view of history") but better some discussion,and some discussion begetting more discussion. It seems to me that most British people don't really think about colonialism, the impact on First Nations and other peoples and geniuinely have absolutely no idea about the immense wealth transferred to their nation from the suffering of other peoples, not just "slavery". Good on everyone for every little bit of light shed.

[@Rozewolf]

Thank you for a balanced view of a very difficult issue. My aunt and uncle are archaeologists, and more than once, they have stated how difficult it is to interpret history, as the lens that it is viewed through can be so far removed from the reality of a piece. You did a great job of showing how Kedleston Hall as reworked their view in the last 10+ years. It does change how people see, and understand history.

[@zephmorningstar2099]

This is the first video of yours that I have watched. I'm highly impressed and sadly not to shocked to hear some of what you stated in the your video. I'm an American Artist and I love going to museums, but I do know that I'm probably an outlier when it comes to the subject which is unfortunate. I know there will be some who fell you painted Ms. Hay in a bad light, but I don't think you did, you mentioned you were able to speak with her and she willingly shared information, and then you offered in the video some ideas coming from your field of expertise on how to better incorporate the history of the pieces being researched and replicated. So thank you very much for this video. I'll be clicking on the subscribe button.

[@stuartbolter]

Kathy Hays work on the recreation of this dress has been fabulous in bringing to light further background and bringing the story to life

[@katerrinah5442]

I really appreciate your view on this. Learning to improve is so important!

[@flannerypedley840]

Thanks for your crankiness. As an Australian, I am frequently horrified by the "snowflakes" who want to pretend our violent colonial histroy did not happen.

[@evacelik6857]

Cathy hayes is recreating a DRESS not a political statement please people tag down

[@linkstheshifter2358]

Thank you dearly for this valuable insight. Ive been a following of Cathy's for a while and when all this went down, I saw very little discussion of the dress itself. The one sitting in it's glass case. It's important to include it in the conversation because honestly, what happens to the original is a little more important to me that what happens with it's remake

[@historiansrevolt4333]

Stealing "colonialism is like glitter" for my own museum interpretation.

[@cryingash]

At the end, it is just a dress. Yes, a dress with a dark history/symbolic meaning, but without Cathy and her love for the dress, would we now really know that much about it? Or rather, would that many ppl know about it? Would the Museum had the name of the craftsman workshop written instead of „unknown craftsman“? No, they would not! And there are always more than one side behind an historical item or history itself. It‘s never one sided nor is it only two sided story. There are always multiple layers of it!

[@adedow1333]

I really appreciate this video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us to help us flesh out and develop our opinions and reexamine ourselves and our views. I am eager to continue learning.

[@dianarojo-poulin8335]

Bravo, well said. Thank you for sharing your point of view. Since I first saw Kathy Hays talking about the peacock dress, I alway was under the impression that she admired the design and workmanship. I fault the museum for not putting a more accurate history of the dress, they themselves liked and appreciated the dress as a garment, not what it represented. I have to wonder if Lady W. was aware of what the dress meant. Was she that arrogant?

[@Musicfreak1ify]

I doubt it was a case of arrogance, I feel like it would be very similar to our modern acceptance of fast fashion and how, if you think about it for any length of time, it really becomes very apparent that for the clothes we wear to be as cheap as they are, the people making them cannot be earning a living wage, but we, as a society, tend to somewhat ignore this uncomfortable reality and in some cases, justify it, ie. "At least they're getting paid something for their work" "there's not really much I can do about fixing the issue" and "I need clothing so I'm willing to look past the injustice in it" Now I'm not saying that either situation is good in any way, in fact I think both Worth, Lord and Lady Curzon and our modern society as a whole needs to think a lot harder about where their clothing comes from, but I also don't think we should fall into 'x thing is bad and is supported somewhat by y person therefore y person is bad' people aren't that black and white imo

[@ashley-cz1sl]

Actually Cathy Hay has address the colonial history of the Peacock Dress. She has talked at length about how the British treated the Indian people. It does not matter who tries to recreate this dress people are going to have a problem with it. I get that Indian people were treated like crap by the British but it's just a freaking dress.

[@idasvenning3892]

And you don't seem to have listened to what she said because it really isn't "just a freaking dress". Plus this video has very, very little to do with Cathy lol

[@rudetuesday]

Thank you for adding to the discussion. Museums are as political as any other way we refine and use history.

[@maiw4348]

This video was incredibly patronising. You act as if all British people are blind to our own history ffs. We are aware, we know it was evil. but people on the internet act as if we should walk around apologising for what the elite in this country did in the past centuries or that we should continually berate ourselves and never enjoy anything in life like a flipping dress. And someone in the comments is going to try to come for me for this and say ‘ Youre an awful person, you’ve missed the point, you’re insensitive, yada yada’ but no I’m very sensitive and I listened to the whole video. I’ve just had enough. You can all start feeling bad for something that you didn’t do, wasn’t alive to see, do not have any control over and cannot change now. And btw, I don’t be seeing any French, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgium, Spanish, German, Russian, Austrian, Italian constantly made to feel shit about their colonial pasts and they did the same. You all just cherry pick and pick on one villain so you feel exonerated and morally perfect. As of everyone in the rest of the world throughout history were flipping saints. Already I’m done. Rant over.

[@SouthernArtist77]

Cathy Hay has already addressed these issues, you didn’t need to do it as well, especially with your snarky attitude. I learned a lot that I didn’t know about the subject only because of Cathy and I’m a heck of a lot older than you are. That’s the difference between knowledge and wisdom, wisdom is knowing when to back off.

[@mariewaters9346]

Totally agree with you. Cathy Hay has worked tirelessly to do this dress justice. She has also not hidden the fact that it has a history. People need to watch her videos before making judgements.

[@Wyatt.the.martian]

Learning a lot from Cathy Hays and being older does not make your argument. She is a highly educated professional working in this area. She is an expert and it is her professional prerogative to address controversy in her field. Saying she shouldn't just because you think you somehow know more just shows your ignorance and disrespect.

[@Wyatt.the.martian]

And expertise does not equate to "snark"

[@epluribusunum1460]

The essence of ‘history’ is the goal to always be rewriting it, as we learn more and develop other perspectives from many voices. I’m afraid that formal education in our world has generally failed to teach people to question. I am glad that museums provide simple entertainment for those just seeking pleasure; if we want to do so, we can go and have a limited self-created illusion of a past moment. Or we can go deeper. I’m very glad and grateful to have found your video, and am subscribing. Thank you for this excellent work.

[@taniakol]

Who are you? Tempest in a teapot, and pot (works at a colonial house, PM holidays in Tofino on the first Reconciliation Day! wt..?!) calling the kettle black. Obvious to anyone with common sense - it's the craftsmanship of the apparently spectacular piece of clothing (didn't know, thank you Cathy) that has captured CH's imagination so much as to make it her life's ambition/holy grail to recreate. The rest is a distant second. While the circumstances of how and why a dress came to be should of course be acknowledged, and that it likely wouldn't have existed without those particular circumstances, the degree of "I'm offended" nitpicking about the how and why of its creation to the point of calling her to abandon her 10+ year project is just.. jaw dropping. Cancel culturers with victim mentalities who seriously just have to "go looking for it". So yes, I know the term is loaded, but they are snowflakes. And curiously, they only seem to be people in their 20s , ie the ones who have been affected by these unfair practises the least. Of course we don't want to condone things like racism, etc, but come on. Leave the poor woman (she's also been a victim) to her passion, which is dressmaking, and save your indignation for other real, more important and serious offences. There's lots of those. And many, many of them in Canada.

[@susanrobertson984]

Canuckian here brought over by a Cathy Hay provided link - Glad I made it back to a Canadian YTber. I like your take on the dress controversy and hope that it becomes a way to teach about context rather than just a pretty dress. Look how much folks have learned and how much more we're talking about because of one dress.

[@AlishaN-yh5nf]

Cathy has been a huge part in the updated infomashon of the dress she has put a lot of work in to the recreation of the dress and has found out the name of its inbroudery house and made shore that it has been made known and the museum has taken credit for doing the work about the history of the dress so yes they need to update them but if thay are given the infomashon they should credit that thay were given the corect infomashon not claming that thay did it all!

[@elizabethraitanen5057]

Thank you for making this video. I knew a little bit about the Peacock dress controversy as I follow a number of historical costumers. I appreciate your perspective as a historian and museum curator.

[@xtsdagger6956]

I have been following history costumers for a bit now, obviously I need to add museum professors with a fruit related names to the list. Also, thank you, very informative, I am always glad to learn history, as well as the history behind this controversy.

[@sometimeswrite239]

You might want to go back and watch Cathy’s entire series before being so dismissive. I like the idea of what you’re doing but do full research before you drag someone.

[@bluemaiden5]

Very interesting. Thank you. I was a volunteer at a small local museum in California. There were displays of life in Early California, the beginning of the city as well as the lives of the Native Americans in that area. I did my best to read and learn but left because one of the women saw it as a costume party and another 2 were fighting over Queen Bee status. I left and it still breaks my heart. Still reading and researching though

[@omaralmubayd]

Of course, the aftermath of colonisation should not be disregarded. However, Cathy Hay is an artist who appreciates the art and the craftsmanship. Can't we just agree on that?! Agree on art, beauty, and craftsmanship and recreate that art with clean and pure purpose and intentions. Art, should not be tented with Evil, not even that of its originator.

[@inkenhafner7187]

Not even Cathy agrees with you on that. That is why she opened the dialogue about the history and meaning of the dress, it's embroidery and the political statement that was made by wearing it where and when it was worn.

[@omaralmubayd]

@@inkenhafner7187as I said, the aftermath of colonisation should never be disregarded or glossed over. And art and artists should not be punished because of misuse.

[@biguattipoptropica]

@@omaralmubayd if you're talking about the embroiderers, you're right, it sucks that the embroidery was misused. But you can use the same style of embroidery and level of craftsmanship on a different dress design. The dress was unfortunately not misused. Please read the Wikipedia page on it, there is at least one person in the comments of this video lying about its origin. It was created for the Delhi Durbar for the Vicereine of India (standing in for Empress Alexandra). Literally white supremacists celebrating colonization with a white supremacists' party.

[@TheNyah5]

So, all of you never ordered something over Amazon? ....Oh, and btw: What kind of camera/phone are you using, where and how was it built? Kathy has done a TON to recognize the embroiderers in India, as well as the circumstances under which the dress was made. What have YOU done so far, to recognize and help the people who build your electronic devices?

[@Wyatt.the.martian]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. A dialogue is an extremely integral starting point for breaking down barriers of oppression. Everyone is learning and growing.

[@sherrillsturm7240]

Interesting discussion. I watched Hay's video about it, as I have all the other ones on this project. I have come down on the side of celebrating it as a work of art, not as a token of a political argument

[@sarahheri7027]

well... as a GERMAN i will never understand how people are able to turn a blind eye on colonialism, because - eh - right? we get taught everything about the holocaust in school, and everything is made VERY clear, and we have to watch footage, and visit concentration camps, and all that NON-fun stuff. ...i didn't know all that much about colonialism, until this dress happened, to be honest, and i think that's not great. the first step should be TEACHING THESE THINGS AT SCHOOL!!!

[@debd7631]

A lot of the time it is taught at school, but most kids dont remember learning it. Also, history is generally taught through a national perspective because history is so vast that covering it in total I extremely challenging. For example, here in the U.S. we are all taught about the holocaust. Depending on where you live though there isnt an opportunity to visit a museum and see that history in our faces. The ancient history of Rome didnt really hit me until I traveled there. American revolutionary history didnt leave an impact until I traveld and lived in Boston to see where it actually happened. That's why the recreation of the peacock dress is important...it gives more people the chance to see and explore the history.

[@sarahheri7027]

@@debd7631 okay but how do you guys in the states tackle what happened with indigenous people in america?

[@debd7631]

@@sarahheri7027 that has been changing over the last few decades. The history books have been getting better at highlighted the various genocidal and other injustices that were suffered. Granted there isnt a universal template for how history is taught here, so I can't speak for all schools. States have a tendency to focus on local state history as well as national history. Again. Depending on where you are, it might be hard to actually see the places of history. I lived in Alaska, so I had more visceral exposure to Alaska Native history. It wasnt until I was an adult that I was able to travel and see the places and locations where I could get a view of the rest of the indigenous Native American history. I will say I do remember learning about the various tribes of the Americas, the trail of tears where so many Cherokee died while being marched out of their homeland into oklahoma, I remember learning about the battle of wounded knee, etc. The challenge with modern education is developing an interest in history so that people remember it and are encouraged to learn more....that is where I think our schools fail the most. We wont remember most of what we learn in school, unless we find value about learning more.

[@sarahheri7027]

@@debd7631 that kind of was my point, how each land will of course concentrate on it's own history - but it still should be TRUTHFUL what they teach at schools. how wrong is it to teach kids about the indian riots, when they were only trying to defend themselves and take back what was theirs?! obviously i already outed myself as a german, so i can't specifically give my opinion on the school system in the states, since i don't know much about it. :) thank you for telling me, i find all of this utterly interesting, because - as mentioned - in germany we get drilled to know as much as possible about the holocaust. we almost spend an entire semester on ww2, and i vividly remember the footage and the visit to the camp. i get why this is so important, but that made me wonder SO HARD about that video which cathy put out last year (it's the second in the peacock-endeavour i believe), because - you know?! - how could she SUDDENLY after a decade of dreaming about this dress find out all those things? but i guess as long as one WINS the war one starts, they get to write history lessons however they please, right?

[@debd7631]

@@sarahheri7027 history is also fairly complicated. Whenever you have two groups of people converging, there is going to be conflict. I dont necessarily hold the farmers that were coming in trying to find a way to keep their family alive and facing raids and attacks by local native tribes. Both sides in those individual conflicts had a negative connotation. To me the biggest lesson from those ages is the failure of the U.S. govt to abide by their treaties with the tribes...constantly pushing and constraining their ability to exist in their land. That was unforgivable and led to untold horrors and bloodshed. On another point...WW2 is heavily pushed in american history class. That includes the horrors of the holocaust, because it is such a visceral reminder of the capability of mankind to complacently fall into unimaginable evil. I do wish they would have focused on the similar horrors committed by communist russia and china...for some reason that got left out in alot of our history.

[@maryarneson5815]

Kathy also received monies, as in funds specifically for her to recreate the gown. So, if she does as the haters wish, who repays the monies and time already invested? If any one actually listens to Kathy, she is celebrating the craftsmanship, not the use, while she did share the use and background, that is NOT her focus.

[@lisaowen6103]

Where dose this end ? Are we to stop enjoying beautiful things and craftmanships? Are we to stop eating and drinking wonderful world foods of many cultures? Things in the past we can't change. But I agree that we should acknowledge what has happened in past with respect . And give credit where credit is due. Good and bad .

[@biguattipoptropica]

Well for one thing we could listen to marginalized people when they tell us something will hurt them.

[@inkenhafner7187]

We can admire the craftsmenship of the Indian embroiderers... and we do. And we appreciate that National Trust has at least put the name of the Indian embroidery manufactory before House of Worth now in the description and added details about the baclground and meaning of the dress.

[@TheBearstitch]

Thank you so much for this video. I really enjoyed the content and the way it was presented. It was educational and offered a perspective, that as far as I know, hadn't been approached.

[@alaskacosplay]

Seeing the peacock dress online is quite gorgeous from a visual standpoint and I would love to make a dress similar to it construction wise as Cathy Hay has researched the heck out of this dress from the patterning, embroiderers, and even how it was then altered and stabilized. Colonial problems aside, the Peacock Dress is still a beautiful dress and quite an iconic Worth Dress.

[@angellover02171]

It's basic dress and the embroidery makes it you unique. I think Cathy mentions the drafting book she uses in one of her videos so maybe you can find a online free version to draft your own dress and make it your own.

[@GoddessTara923]

I think completing this is an acknowledgements to the history. It's a mixed cultural item. We still do it today like importing from India and China having cheep labour to make some of our larger brands.

[@rainwater739]

If I steal your purse, is it now a mixed ownership item between the two of us? Yes, the dress itself wasn't physically stolen, but the idea of the dress very much was taken from the Indian people in not only cultural significance, but credit in the work. The dress doesn't belong to England, just as the many foreign artifacts in their museums doesn't belong to them. Art sends a message, intentional or not. An English woman making a direct recreation of the historical dress, even with an accompanying explanation, would indicate that although we acknowledge the dark past, we haven't learned from it. In fact, knowing the past of the dress makes Cathy's direct recreation even worse, because she's still garbing herself at other's expense. We don't get to tell others they aren't really hurt, and some very much are. I would argue a better alternative would be to use the fabric to make a traditional Indian dress for a volunteer model with that heritage to wear. Even better would be to use lion fur or rose petals as the beading design (both symbol of English power and rule) to signify our newfound understanding of the meaning of peacock feathers to India. This way, Cathy is directly and meaningfully incorporating the history of the dress, and is acknowledging that there's a better way to move forward. Does she get the exact dress she started with? No, at this point, why would she want to continue the representation of power over other cultures? However, with a new design, she gets something that is even better, because it's history allows her to have pride in her craftsmanship and for trying to repair a wrong. I'm seeing this more and more in today's world: it may not be our fault, but if we can correct a past wrong, we have the responsibility to do so. Part of this is also acknowledging when your opinion really matters and when it doesn't. Although I am part of a marginalized group, I am not of the group that was wronged. No one gets to tell them their concerns aren't worth consideration, even others from that same group. If they say this is problematic, and it is even from the perspective of a American white woman, it's worth the time to understand their perspective.

[@biguattipoptropica]

@@rainwater739 she could also do two dresses, with the second one being a collaboration with Indian designers and reinterpretation of the Peacock dress for her to wear. I've seen that recommended to her a few times. I'd argue in this context, something like ermine or mink fur is most appropriate, but heraldry ermine especially.

[@redwitch95]

Wonderful video! I was a bit astonished when you mentioned some volunteers will openly admit to fabricating information - that sounds wildly unprofessional to me. I'm familiar with the National Trust (I live in the UK) so I was surprised their displays at Kettlestone Hall are so lacking, especially given their report last year.

[@clockworkgnome]

As I was once a volunteer docent here in the States, I wasn’t aware of that, but it doesn’t surprise me-my house museum/historical park thing had no text panels in the main house and huge ones in the adjacent house, but no resources on site for the docents other than other more seasoned docents. I’d have to walk a couple blocks to the county archives in the basement of the other museum in our system if I wanted to do research on something if the three curators were busy upstairs. I did it a lot in my spare time.

[@robintheparttimesewer6798]

I was horrified!!! Most people would understand that the guides are not all knowing!!!

[@CrimsonGardenia]

As an intern at a national magazine, I was asked to write the astrology column for that month, as the regular contributor's hadn't shown up in time. Not much shocked me after that about publishing, authenticity and what volunteers are asked to do. 😆

[@slroberts283]

I don't suppose it has occurred to you that people like Cathy love the beauty and style of a bygone era, but are not advocating the values of that era. Why must you politicize a project that she has worked so hard and for so long. It seems she is considering chucking the whole thing thanks to professional whiners like you. Good job!

[@castoputa]

Well at least racists like you will back her up 😂

[@anthonyhayes1267]

The 15 minutes of information thing honestly perplexes me. If I've made an effort to go to a museum, I'm going to soak up everything I can.

[@iamtheonewhocares]

This has nothing to do with the video, just food for thought as a creator, the closed captions are for people with many hearing disabilities not just completely deaf people. We use them in addition to sound to help us hear better. If you put whole phrases and sentences that are different from the actual words you are saying it very quickly becomes too confusing to understand either you or the captions. Then people with hearing problems are trying to both hear what you're saying and read what you're saying at the same time. I wouldn't mention it if it was just a time or two but I had to stop watching the video cuz I just couldn't keep up, it was every caption box. No hate, I understand wanting to rephrase things after you've already said them, just giving you perspective 😊

[@professorpeachez]

Apologies! I tried a different upload method and it didn't work as well as I had hoped. I will fix it in the next few hours!

[@iamtheonewhocares]

@@professorpeachez if you let me know I'll come back and rewatch the vid!

[@professorpeachez]

@@iamtheonewhocares should be fixed now!

[@iamtheonewhocares]

@@professorpeachez Understood every word ❤️❤️ hugs for taking the time to change it!!

[@professorpeachez]

@@iamtheonewhocares no problem, its important!

[@elliesewingandtrashytv]

Hi, just to say I can’t find the link to the national trust report in the description. Will go find it for myself, but others may not and your video does say it’s linked so thought I’d mention it. Thanks for your perspective

[@professorpeachez]

Sorry about that, the link should be in the description now!

[@hopedodson8058]

Thank you for this video. It has helped me put things in perspective about colonialism, museums/historical sites and how to acknowledge the past while incorporating the good, the bad and the ugly.

[@franciscocruzcosta1381]

Good on Kathy showing the wonderful craftsmanship of Indian artisans.

[@GrandmaSandy]

Hi dear friend thank you so much for sharing all this great information about the peacock dress never heard of it and you gave a Lotta great history behind the video and explained it

[@Chancey464]

History should be told by all sides involved, no lie no fabrication no leaning one way or the other/your culture involved. If history was truthful countries would be heard & fix their mistakes way before now. Would countries be better today???

[@af3893]

The gown would’ve been stunning no matter who wore it, I’m proud of Cathy, she shed light on this topic, and without her, would we have known? I think she fell in love with the embroiders who created that gown.

[@purplealice]

The Indian artisans who did the embroidery deserve praise and credit for the beauty and intricacy of their work. Too bad their names are lost to history now. And the underpaid labor of people in "third world" countries is just an echo of previous injustices.

[@19Cathy59]

The dress most probably should be made, and given to India for one of their museums, they can show it in a different light and show they took back their country. The original dress was a symbol of conquer of Rich vs Poor, not much to do with skin color supremacy.

[@lynn858]

When you said you worked at a Canadian museum that used to mostly talk about the teas, my first thought was, “Oh! I know which one!” And then I realized I don’t, because that could be any of a few of Ontario or Quebec “home museums” I’ve been to - and I’ve no reason to expect the rest of the country’s doesn’t fall into the same trap.

[@CallyPendragon]

Can you fix the captions? Huge chunks are missing!

[@professorpeachez]

They should be fixed now, sorry about that!

[@CallyPendragon]

@@professorpeachez THANK YOU!!!! Access matters and I truly appreciate that you took the time-twice!

[@bisma1352]

late to this but most of the comments are so odd because you seemed actually worried it might be perceived as a defence video for cathy meanwhile they're saying you didn't defend enough. As an Indian i think Cathy's peacock dress videos helped me realise how colonialism lived in fashion so I'm grateful to her for that much. Although The probably underpaid breakback craftmanship by the indian workers was a footnote to the white designer's "achievement", so it still seemed gross to me how again we know it more by the white person with a vision rather than the Indians who put in the hours of work for little percentage of the reward. From what i know the remake would have only been possible if the same exploitation was recreated. Your video is the final nail, if the museum isn't even going to put effort into the presentation of this piece of colonized fashion history then I don't think they deserve a recreated dress to display either, Cathy may deserve it for her work but I don't know if there would be any justice still for the underpaid workers always at the bottom.

[@liva9994]

I mean, I would say it depends on how we go about it. like there is def' some history that's worth to awknowledge, but this goes to everything really. But I can see it from the perspective of just thinking the dress is really pretty and wanting to recreate it to wear it, and feel pretty. I don't think people should be restricted, so they can't do that. Like every article of clothing from the upper-class have in some way exploited people, if not through colonialism, then through serfs, or the poor/lower classes. One of the reasons I personally dislike the victorian "maid" outfit, because it's so de-humanizing, it litereally made them less human, and they were supposed to be invisible. But I'm fine with people wearing them, I know the history behind it, but I don't hate the articles of clothing themselves, just like I don't "hate" military-uniforms/armour, but I dislike the people who wore them. It's two different things, both can be interesting to look at, but it really depends on the angle you're going at it. Like if someone want to dress up because they want to, and not be weighed down by the ton of history behind it, then I'm not going to stop them from wearing a plate-mail, or roman outfit etc. Even though the people who wore that stuff have killed a lot of people. Sometimes it's okay for pieces of clothing to be just that. - Edit: prob' worth mentioning that I'm from Europe, not a very imperialistic country at that, so not UK, etc. I do think it's worth talking about, but I don't think it's going to help anyone to hate a piece of clothing. It's more important that they can't continue to exploit those people than creating a replica with your own money and time. If that's what you want to wear, more power to you.

[@lunarsma8446]

Appreciate you big time! Thank you for your efforts and message!

[@adilagram]

So interesting. Thank you for sharing your perspective 🙌🏻

[@bandgal85]

So I understand where people are coming from. I am a fan of the peacock dress in the sense that I admire the craftsmanship that went into the embroidery. I look At this recreation as Not only an opportunity to learn about the past but to but to still admire the Craftsman ship that is still alive and well in India. The dress may have represented something bad but, Instead of keeping it bad let's change it for something that is good.🤷‍♀️ Whether people want to admit to it or not there's been some good that has come out of this. Been able to credit the embroiders. It's also brought up this conversation about colonization. The good the bad and the ugly. I think it's important to have this conversation and to learn. Maybe I'm looking at this in a very different way as a lot of other people and that's just who I am.

[@PepsiObsessi]

I think a great end to the tale of Cathy's recreation would be working something out with Kedleston Hall where they return the original dress to India to decide what they'd like to do with it, and Cathy's recreation can fill the space at Kedleston Hall. The history can continue to live on in England and more people can learn about not only the dress but the story behind it, and India gets to reclaim a bit of autonomy and what really could almost be considered a cultural national treasure and represents the skill and artfulness of India's people despite their hardship at the time it was made, maybe even inspiring people to take up traditional arts as the government has been trying to encourage for years. I don't think recreating the dress is necessarily glamorizing it and the dark truth behind it but it is certainly deeper than some people want to pretend- but I do think there could be a good ending for everyone here. I know the idea of the original being handed back over is a stretch but it's by no means impossible.

[@lnorlnor]

I think that we should take this as an opportunity to reconsider every instance of recreating specific dresses/outfits worn by powerful historical figures. Like I can see how a White woman would look at this dress and see it as not being that ethically different from making a dress worn by a queen or princess in that era--and maybe it isn't, maybe we shouldn't be remaking specific garments of the powerful just for fun, as throughout history the vast majority of wealth and power was violently acquired. I do understand why people of Indian ethnicity would find this particular dress especially violent and not worth making, no matter how many videos Cathy makes about its painful history or how enthusiastic her Indian collaborators are about such a project. Also this dress is just over a hundred years old. The things that are learned from reproducing it are almost trivial and not fully forgotten, compared to experimental archaeology or speculative reconstruction based on limited evidence.

[@GrainneDhub-ll6vw]

As an American, my mama was from Lancashire and my father was from Korea--both of them born well pre-WWII. So I have an interesting personal history of colonialism, especially considering that my mother's grandmother was an Irish girl who left Ireland during the famine to work as a maid to send her wages home to support her family (the old story, she never intended to stay in England but fell in love with a local boy, married, etc). I would love to be able to confront the so-called "Common Sense" group and ask them how they would feel if Germany chose to start blanking out WWI and WWII, especially the Battle of Britain (which my mama lived through as a child). How would they feel if Germany chose to stop educating their children about that period of history? I realise that the way Germany is presenting that history is still somewhat problematic but at least they are acknowledging it. At least no German pretends that my cousins's uncle, who never made it back from Dunkirk, must have died in a bar brawl that had nothing to do with any German military aggression. The vast majority of British people would be very indignant at the idea of Germany choosing to forget their role in WWII. The next step is, I hope, then easier to understand: the colonised people are also indignant that the British have, for the most part, chosen to forget their part in the wrongs inflicted upon the countries and the cultures they colonised.

[@Elizabeth-bz7jr]

this is so off topic to the very serious topic at hand but what is the music playing behind the conservative letter

[@meredithpope4688]

Thank you for providing some common sense in this charged discussion. I agree that at the end of the day, colonialism happened and we should never forget how it impacted the world and cultures at large. I think far too often "we as a society" would like to over simplify its impacts (good/bad/and beyond). As a lover of historical dress/fashion/craftsmanship I wish more institutions and those who discuss the origins of the craftsmanship/artisanship involved by those who constructed/designed these beautiful pieces and how their traditional and culturally learned skills brought beauty to more of the world and an adjacent history of how many of the Western dress, fabrics, embroidery etc., would not exist without the devotion, creativity, inspiration, traditional craftsmanship, ingenuity, of other cultures our clothes would most likely be extremely drab. While it might have taken a "westerner" to introduce such beauty to a wider western culture it was these at the time little known artisans and craftsmen who brought and added even more beauty to the world at large. I like to think of these artisans much in the way an atelier works, yes you have the fashion house AND it would be NOTHING without the artisans and craftsmen who figure out how to embroider and fashion the fabrics and materials to bring the imagination to life. Maybe I'm dumb, but I wish there were more museums or other educational institutions that would speak to the historical significance of the world of textiles and craftsmanship from around the globe that have and continue to shape fashion, art, and culture. My two cents at least. The world would not be as bright and beautiful without these artisans and more should be done to explore their histories and document and display their traditional works and how it influenced others.

[@stevezytveld6585]

This is a fantastic discussion. Thank you for sharing your perspective. Well done. - Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown

[@lynetteclauser3551]

I’m probably in the minority here. But history is well, history. You can’t change it. And I don’t see how research into and remaking a dress ADDS any harm or in anyway glorifies colonialism in 2021. After all is said and done the Peacock Dress is an exceptional piece of wearable art and workmanship. I think her research has honored those who embroidered it. And without her wanting to remake this dress we would nit now know the name of the embroidery house that did it. Should I not buy a cotton blouse because slaves picked cotton in US history? Every single country on earth has a past and some a present, that they are not proud of. You make amends, move on, do better. Like I said, just my opinion.

[@clockworkgnome]

Great job, love the use of the Greig near the end!

[@conniehopkins6105]

I thought Charles Worth ran a French fashion house. I'm so sorry Kathy was forced to stop her project because of the hand wringing brought about by the history of colonialism. It has already happened and is over. I just want to enjoy the efforts of artisans from around the world. The people who made this dress were fabulous craftsmen and women and their work should be appreciated. I so wanted to see what the dress looked like when it was new. Kathy was certainly doing her best to make it original. I also appreciate the efforts of museums to update information and give credit where due. Colonialism should be recognized, but since none of us were alive when it happened, we should not be flogged daily because of it.

[@junkabella6324]

I am VERY resistant to Museum Fatique, i can absorb three exhibits a day when i am in the mood! But it is a very real phenomenon and i’ve suffered from it too!

[@princekrazie]

Hey, can you please speak more about how and why museums are INHERENTLY racist? I’m from China, which did get screwed over by foreign powers in the past, so I’m interested in this discussion.

[@biguattipoptropica]

I don't think the argument is they are inherently racist but rather the way they currently exist and function is. The history of museums is really bad, involving grave robbing and stealing and displaying human remains and other reminders of colonization and genocide (I will not tell you details so you can sleep at night). It involves a lot of stolen artefacts and stolen artefact trafficking, even if the artefact is sacred and/or still usable and functional. Museums will often cover up artefacts' origins or simply refuse to give them back to the rightful owner(s). That's along with displaying things outside their proper context, so something valuable and something meant to perpetuate white supremacy or colonization are often given the same weight in exhibits and can and are shown right next to each other.

[@theab3957]

@@biguattipoptropica ...so, in other words, they're racist.

[@biguattipoptropica]

@@theab3957 the question was inherently. Of course they're racist. I'm just of the opinion museums, or at least a similar concept, can be a good educational resource, but not the way they currently function in most places of the world.

[@katherinenelson5905]

I was a server at an 1850's Tavern inside the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village, you could absolutely tell which guests had just sucked in too much information. They were like over full sponges. I once had someone ask me, "What is the difference between gravy, onions, and horseradish" when ordering a meal.

[@Stettafire]

Ja, mentally exhausted

[@princessoftheworld2734]

As someone who has no stake in any of this, save looking at pretty dresses, reading and listening to what’s been presented, I’ll be sad if Ms Hayes doesn’t end up making this dress. I could go on a few tangents, but the one I’ll stick to is this: who does the peacock dress truly belong to? Is it the National Trust’s? The fashion house that put it together? Or does it belong to the original artisans? I favour the third option. In my heart of hearts, I would love to see artifacts returned to the countries, villages or groups they originated from. We can learn just as well from pictures and reproductions. It’s presumptuous of me to say so, I know, but seeing as Ms Hayes was trying to have this dress made more ethically then the original, it would be amazing if her dress could be displayed in place of the original thus allowing that original to be returned and used appropriately by the government of India. Oh well, it’s my incoherent two cents to throw out there. I also really appreciated the information presented by ProfessorPeachez. I love learning about history and this was a great lesson of history, ethics and social responsibility. I look forward to watching more of your content in the future, and maybe even getting to visit your museum! Thanks.

[@sophiesong8937]

If you think you have no stake, you are probably mistaken. Is Cathy Hay remaking this dress more ethically than the original?

[@princessoftheworld2734]

@@sophiesong8937 hello Sophie. I meant that I have no stake in her recreation of this dress personally. As a global citizen, and as a descendant of colonizers in North America whom reaped the benefits, I definitely have my own personal deconstruction and reconciliation to deal with. My understanding was that Ms Hayes was planning to have the embroidery done by a workshop group in India that are paid fair wages for their labour and craftsmanship. If I am wrong, I apologize for misleading anyone.

[@seansaunders3840]

@@sophiesong8937 I do believe that she is. Cathy has done exhaustive research in the creation of the dress, and the makers who made such a beautiful creation to begin with. She understands the craftsmanship that goes into making a masterpiece such as this. If you watch her videos, especially her last one, she delves directly into the heart of all of this by seeking ways to make amends fir the past.

[@inkenhafner7187]

@@sophiesong8937 you'll know when you watch Cathy's videos.

[@sophiesong8937]

@@inkenhafner7187 I've watched Cathy's videos. Sure, it wouldn't take much to be 'more ethical' than the original manufacture, but I am not sure it is ethical, regardless. Her most recent video is what actually made me feel less like the dress should be completed, where I was yet to be convinced up until that video. I like Cathy, I enjoy her videos, but I think she could let this one go and have failed nothing. There are other great dresses to be made

[@pegsu6104]

I enjoyed your perspective on the subject. Many thanks!

[@purplealice]

Garments for sale in the First World are still being hand-sewn by underpaid workers in Bangladesh. I am a descendant of European colonists in North America myself (whose relations with the native were reprehensible). And I have seen museum exhibits of artifacts from African and Pacific and Native American peoples which describe the objects in derogatory terms such as "cult totems", and some Native American groups have gotten their tribal sacred objects returned to them for respectful treatment. Incidentally, Cathy Hay is a very wise, kind, and well-informed woman, and doesn't deserve the blame for this internet kerfuffle. And a lot of people are interested in the opulent garments designed by the House of Worth, and in the history of High Fashion and glamour. And Lord and Lady Curzon being photographed with the corpse of a tiger presumably hunted and killed by His Lordship, with the assistance of "natives". I went looking for information about Fortuny pleating and the "Delphos" gown, and the house of Worth was involved with that. (I describe the Empire State Building's Art Deco architeture as if she's a Grande Dame wearing "Fortuny pleated beige limestone".)

[@thomashubbell8612]

As an American, I don’t feel I have the right to tell another country what they should show or say. That out of the way, one way that the dress could be shown respectfully would be to address the talented artisans from India whose work is displayed. As well, the museum could address the many perspectives included in the item: colonialism; greed; pride; mindset of the time; the unfair abuse of the native artisans and peoples. We are “trying” to do that here in the USA. It is enlightening to visit sites like The Hermitage and Monticello and be told openly that the glories of these sites were made on the backs of enslaved peoples.

[@Stettafire]

I'm British and I 100% agree. In the UK this isn't taught in schools. We should learn about the bad our ancesters did (well, my ancesters were immigrants but ignoring that) and I think also this will go a good stretch to combating misinformation too

[@lenaeospeixinhos]

Hey, I enjoyed this, I'm gonna stay ❤ subscribed!

[@skatfan]

Thank you so much for your professional take on this. So much to do to bring awareness to colonialism and white supremacy.

[@theab3957]

Okay, so you guys are actually serious? You didn't know the extent of colonialism? Like, this actually surprised people?

[@jotsntittles5783]

People may be interested to learn it was the Brits who decided which words would be compiled for our dictionary and that Charles Darwin & his cousin 'Sir Francis Galton - The Father of Eugenics' [You can still find the KZbin video under that title] against PoC) have their own dark secrets and close connection to Margaret Sanger of the American Birth Control League, later renamed as Planned Parenthood

[@californiaclaire8558]

I'm ashamed of the people in the sewing/costuming community taking such a horrible attitude toward Cathy Hay to the point she has now dropped the project and we may never see her final result. Jealousy and a justice warrior mentality does nothing to help humanity learn. Shame on those of you who couldn't see the brilliant work being done. This will not change what was considered 'normal' during that era. However it does *everything* to highlight how ignorant people still are..

[@jancioffi56]

This celebrates the craftsmanship of the embroidery that’s it!!!!

[@asterya6913]

Please watch the video first. (I did because I just learned about that whole thing. And please, I sincerely ask you to stop saying that no one would know about the peacock dress if not for that. That is just not a productive mindset if we want this conversation to mean anything. Rather, wonder why it took a controversy and a non Indian creator for it to get noticed. And how come a museum didn't do it proper research.) It's not about Cathy, it's about the museum and how it treated the dress. But since so many people are talking about it, I felt like throwing in my two cent. Cathy needed to go further if she wanted to make that dress. Uplift Indian voices by having an Indian historian, an Indian seamstress ect To sit down and ask them what they would want that dress to be, what do it represent for them and how they would do that project if given the resources. Give them the equal representation and part to play in it that their ancestors were denied. And use her channel popularity to shed light on and promote Indian creators and artists. As well as break stereotypes about India, especially how many thinks that every textiles worker from here is struggling. India textile industry is robust and vibrant. The workers Cathy engaged for the sample are not wanting for works. It's a myth that need to be broken, as so many Indian business are having difficulty with other believing they don't know any better and thus trying to charge them double the price. Yes. It's a lot and a lot of works. The efforts Cathy did once she learned the history are good and deserve to be praise. But the peacock dress IS POLITICAL. It very BEING is colonialist. It was made by the British to show their power and superiority over Indian. It cannot just be "a pretty dress" separated from any form of it or who wore it and why. And thus you can't put as much effort into it as you would for any other dress. It need to be decolonized down to the LAST seam. And it would have been grueling work. But if it was not, it would not have helped Indian people and worse, could continue to hurt them. As once again someone use their skills, acknowledged their history which is an improvements to be praise, but does not go all the way and truly empower them by give back the spotlight they have been stolen. So I completely understand why Cathy decided to abandon that project. It would not have been easy to do it justice.