The Podcast - Episode 3 - Goodyear Welted vs Handwelted

Here we take a look at the differences between the two common shoe constructions in the higher-end shoe industry to see if we can duke it out for a clear answer. But you have to listen to know!
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[@Banzai431]

I make no excuses for myself. I prefer hand welted shoes not because of their superior mechanical construction. I prefer hand welted shoes purely because I'm vain, and I like the idea that my shoes were made by a person painstakingly punching holes with an awl, stitch by stitch. It just feeds my vanity and I embrace that. Incidentally I love the fabric of that suit you're wearing, very nice.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you for sharing and thank you for your kind words 🙏

[@kylegosiaco5318]

Hi Justin! Thank you for the episode. I think another great video idea would be to build on the benefits of hand lasting and especially doing a hand stitched outsole (explaining fudging, stitch pricking, blind vs square z waist, and degrees of finishing) so more people can appreciate the nuances of the craft and understand why they should or should not pay more for their shoes ☺️

[@theshoesnob_official]

Hey Kyle, thanks for sharing. Yes understanding the differences between benchgrade and handgrade is important and will for sure be explained although I have done a video like this already. I will elaborate further.

[@ericwalles]

Thanks Justin, it really feels like a coffe shop conversastion and in many ways it´s been very educative. Thanks to your advices and Hugo Jacomett, i´m migrating to goodyear welted shoes, but also leraning to home made shoes and the incidents you describe in the past episode, somehow give sense to many scenarios i´ve been

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you for sharing Eric and glad that you have been enjoying the videos. I appreciate it

[@linchuaneu9549]

Great sharing Justin. Really need more clip like ours for continuing education and discussion on the industry, and make people appreciate those high quality dress shoes.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you for sharing and saying so. I do appreciate it

[@Christbearer100]

Wonderful breakdown!

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you 🙏

[@alexxfreedom]

Great episode as usual. I have near to 10 pairs of Goodyear welted shoes..... So if I am hoping that they will last my lifetime, even though I am always looking at upgrading the models. I am lucky as I haven't needed to resole any yet.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you Alexander, glad that you enjoyed. With 10 pairs, you are set for a while ;-) but adding is always enjoyable

[@mbshoedoc]

Great discussion. I'm always happy to discover that a pair is hand welted but certainly don't ever seek it out. Having any sort of decent rotation of shoes makes hand welting overkill.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks Mike!

[@thewholecut]

Another great episode, keep them coming! I only go to the office a couple of days a week now since the pandemic and I think do I really need more than a couple of pairs of shoes? But as you say a large rotation will last you a lifetime. I don't need them but I want them so i'll just keep buying them!

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks for sharing and glad that you enjoyed! 🙏

[@user-lp7vf4bs6j]

Totally agree with you, once you have decent pairs in your collection, you will be okay. That’s why your brand’s free pair program is just awesome!

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you my friend 🙏

[@shoemanfu]

I agree with your take. I think the sweet spot is to spend less on a GYW shoe, then use a reputable cobbler to hand welt the resole job. That way, it preserves the upper and gemming by utilizing the existing holes.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks for sharing!

[@ludwigkhoury6813]

Thank you Justin! Can you do an episode on 270 vs. 360? Other than esthetics, the advantages and disadvantages of each. Also 270 for esthetics on a "rugged" boot sounds oxymoronic. Would love your take on it!

[@theshoesnob_official]

Will see about that. Not so expert in 360 welts as I dont really wear them to be honest. But will see what I can pull together ;-)

[@dennisc.115]

Great Episode! I read once that machine lasting and handlasting is is the difference between a shoe being lasted and a shoe being a sculpture and that hits the nail on the head for me. One question I have - Regarding Goodyear welt vs Handwelt, how does a goodyear welted shoe that has no Gemming compare in longevity? Would love to have some technical insights into this from you, I only know that Antonio Meccariello likes to point that out in his shoes. A topic I'd love to hear more about are the technical differences in all different construction methods that exist if you go down deeper into the rabbit hole of shoemaking, e.g. goodyear welted, handwelted, blake, bolognese, norwegian, tirolese and god knows what else :D

[@theshoesnob_official]

Glad that you enjoyed Dennis! As per the no gemming GY welted shoes, well, if they are resoled by hand then just like a handwelted shoe but if you resole them with a machine and put on a new welt then the machine will just make holes wherever and can deteriorate the leather rib As per all of the constructions, I am really on superior in knowledge on welted ones, the rest I cannot claim to be an expert in as never cared for them

[@msarrage]

Goodyear welt was invented by Charles Goodyear Jr., the son of Charles Goodyear who is associated with Goodyear tire. Although the tire company is named after Goodyear senior, he was not the founder or owner of the Goodyear tire company. They named the company after him because he was the first to develop vulcanized rubber.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks for clarifying

[@galou0090]

A good episode could be one talking about shoe expectations for new guys. For example, how many wears should I expect before having to resole? I know it depends on days of wear, miles worn per day, weight of the person and type of outsole leather, but what has your experience been on this part? Also, how do shoes "deteriorate"? I was a bit surprised when my leather outsole edge became rough and also when my closed channel outsole started to peel. These types of expectations could be a good topic. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks for the feedback. Things to expect sounds good. How long something should last is really impossible for anyone to say. When they attempt to they are just making stuff up. But other expectations are smart. Thanks!

[@tonydeltablues]

Looking sartorially sharp....er....now I need to watch the video and then comment with a salient point....

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks Tony!

[@cmfuen]

Is there any benefit to the wooden pegs used in the waist, such as is implemented by St. Crispin?

[@theshoesnob_official]

As opposed to stitching? Not in my opinion. Also means you have to get your shoes resoled by the same maker if you want the same look which makes things more complex

[@CTopC4]

In some of CNES shoes, they mention “fabric stiffener and counter” in the specifications for the upper on some of their models. Could you explain or give your thoughts about it?

[@theshoesnob_official]

Not sure about a fabric heel counter but most uppers have very thin fabric stiffeners between the lining and upper to help maintain shape

[@ahpadt]

more expensive brands will use pieces of leather as counter in the back and toe, cheaper brands will use composite. i dont have a pair which has a leather counter in both ends, so cant speak for that, but my EGs do have a leather heel counter and id argue they are marginally more comfortable in the heel after broken in.

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@ahpadt shoes that are handlasted tend to have actual leather heel counters. Higher end welted brands might use leatherboard which is a composite of leather but actual leather. I do not personally feel any real differences between any of them.

[@vietdungnguyen6407]

Hi Justin, I have one question that I don't see many handwelted shoemaker (bespoke shoemaker) use cork and shank on their shoes, so can you tell us more about this two matterial, why we only find cork and shank in goodyear welted shoes and not often in handwelted shoes (or maybe they do and I'm wrong). Thank you!

[@theshoesnob_official]

Hello Viet, of course they do, but they use stiff leather for the shank and soft leather instead of cork (or spongey cork like in a wine bottle) Its just different than the machine made shoes.

[@markdougherty1636]

Do hand-welted shoes use cork under the sole, and are they heavier than Goodyear welted? Good information, Justin.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Yes they either use cork or leather. Glad that you enjoyed. Thanks!

[@joshuarozario5654]

Thanks for the educational podcast, Justin! Are you referring to 'handwelted' as 'handmade'? The one you talked about in the previous episode? Also, how different is 'handcrafted'? Is that just a marketing terminology?

[@theshoesnob_official]

My pleasure Joshua, glad that you enjoy it. And no handwelted and handmade are not the same. A handmade shoe is handwelted, always, but a handwelted shoe is not always handmade. Handcrafted is a loose term thrown around. Yes more marketing speak

[@grahamliebman8508]

Hey man nice suit. Where is it from if you dont mind me asking. Love the content.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thanks Graham. Its from Knot Standard. Appreciate the support

[@viasartoria]

Norman Vilalta and G&G RTW shoes are prime example of how the construction method alone shouldn’t be the decision maker. I have hand welted and goodyear welted shoes at different price points and the construction method was never the decision maker. Patterns, finishing, leather quality, last etc. matter more to me.

[@theshoesnob_official]

100%

[@viasartoria]

@@theshoesnob_official I feel (And this could just be in my head) that Norwegian constructed shoes feel different to wear, like tanks. For welted shoes, the usage (Or lack thereof ) of oak bark tanned soles make a difference in how sturdy it feels, whether it’s hand welted or goodyear welted, in my opinion.

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@viasartoria for sure they do. They will be stiffer and more robust.

[@felixmunoz184]

Would love your thoughts on leathers

[@theshoesnob_official]

Okay quite vague but will see what I can come up with

[@j.c.3598]

Bontoni says “ entirely handmade” what do you opine?

[@theshoesnob_official]

not true. They are blake rapid, which is a machine construction

[@likearc]

Do you feel the same way about full grain leather heel stiffeners vs. celastic or leather board one's?

[@theshoesnob_official]

I dont. Never really cared about those differences to be honest. Never felt a real difference personally.

[@likearc]

@@theshoesnob_official thank you for your opinion!

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@likearc my pleasure

[@tonydeltablues]

Are we saying the Goodyear welted shoe, if resoled carefully, can be resoled, 3 or 4 times say? I don't have the resoling experience: in other words, I haven't had a pair of GW shoes resoling more than twice. I have about 15 pairs of shoes. In reality, in my shoe rotation I have about 7 or 8 shoes on continual rotation. Because I buy second hand vintage, I have a need to resole on more occasions. I love the idea of having a hand crafted/welted shoe one day :-) I like your comment: shoes are like people, they need a rest. Tony

[@theshoesnob_official]

Yea resoled 3 or 3 times for GY welt if done well and shoe treated properly. The shoe more breaks down due to weather and treatment of the shoe

[@kaikaichen]

I think you could potentially resole them even more times than that if you have a skilled enough cobbler. For example, the great Steve Doudaklian (of Bedo's Leatherworks fame), is willing to re-glue the canvas gemming if it comes unglued, or even replace the gemming altogether in some cases! To me, this fact refutes a lot of the arguments that "handwelt snobs" make about the alleged limited repairability of GYW shoes.

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@kaikaichen impressive what Steve can do. My factory wont even reglue a gemmed rib

[@tonydeltablues]

@@kaikaichen Yep Steve from Bedo's is a true craftsman...and a legend 🙂

[@mtbokor1969]

When is the hadweleted line coming? 🙂

[@theshoesnob_official]

Hopefully in 2024 ;-)

[@niniengineering]

Good contend as always 👍 What about the flex welt construction? I find them very comfortable, with dainite soles and the thinner Kork layer, they are nice to wear.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Thank you very much 🙏

[@niniengineering]

@@theshoesnob_official did you have ever try/use them?

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@niniengineering yes I have. I dont prefer them per se. After break in most welted shoes are very soft and comfortable

[@niniengineering]

@@theshoesnob_official I have one pair with double soles, Goodyear welted. And they are broken in but still kinda harsh.

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@niniengineering thats why I am not a fan of JR soles. They are ao stiff. I prefer chestnut tanned ones that are softer

[@MrBurtonshaw]

Most/many real cobblers sew a new welt on by hand.... using the original holes through the geming and upper/lining... often they don't bother having a welting machine. The manufacturers use a machine, that's why they say they can only resole their own shoes a few times, the machine will make NEW holes in the geming and upper... weakening it with extra holes . A machine made shoe, resoled and HAND WELTED by a cobbler will last as long as any other.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Few of those cobblers exist and charge a LOT for it

[@MrBurtonshaw]

The Canton Cobbler in Cardiff is one. Very reasonable prices from what i can gather. He is considering buying a welt machine though :( @@theshoesnob_official

[@mervynshute880]

water gets in. eats into the the thread. the thread breaks. all the work put in. . rot proof thread, please.

[@stryderja9570]

If hope to have 10 shoes max. Black captoe oxford no broguing. Back quarter brogue oxford captor. Black wholecut oxford. Dark Brown captoe oxford no broguing. Walnut captoe oxford with quarter broguing Merlot/oxblood captoe oxford no broguing Dark Brown plain toe oxford. A nice Brown semi brogue Single monk some shade of brown Penny loafer some shade of brown. Don't think I need more. Allen edmonds seems a decent brand so I work with them.

[@theshoesnob_official]

You are missing boots. And Allen Edmonds is a far cry from a brand worth investing in IMHO. Far better ones out there giving way better bang for buck

[@stryderja9570]

@The Shoe Snob they are more accessible as a starter. I will switch out eventually. But I am starting my journey there. I am meh on boots. I live in the tropics so boots are a tad unnecessary. But if they come they come.

[@theshoesnob_official]

@@stryderja9570 I see, tropics and boots don't mix ;-)

[@milkshakeplease4696]

i think it's time to invent new construction methods even better than handwelting that are even easier to resole, quicker to manufacture than goodyear welt, and more comfortable and allowing for better aesthetics. why stay stuck with current construction methods? push the industry forward stop staying stuck in the 19th century (i dont mean this toward you just speaking in general)

[@theshoesnob_official]

That would be something! Not sure about better aesthetics though

[@Dpineda501]

If you really think about it to say 100% handmade you would have to sew all the leather pieces together by hand. Using a sewing machine is no different than using the welting machine. The hand welted shoe will cost more due to the fact it takes more time.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Technically you are correct if we were being uber snobs about it. But, among the handmade community i.e. bespoke makers, it is acceptable that an upper is sewed by machine and the shoe phrased as handmade being the rest is done by hand. And no, it is not the same as "the welting machine."

[@mervynshute880]

do it again, showing what you are trying to say.

[@theshoesnob_official]

Huh?

[@mervynshute880]

Snobs do not say that word. You got attention and could not explain about the material in the welt area . Anyway. All these shoes are unhygienic. . Sorry mr snob for this fact

[@breadring]

Drop the drink it looks cheap.

[@stevenrose86]

You are very knowledgeable, but my god this was a slog to listen too