The Precarious State of A&P Airplane Mechanics - InTheHangar Ep 127

[@MyWTFName]

Pilots are jointly responsible for the pressures put on A&P's - J.D. mentioned the key word in his talk, liability, how quickly pilots go after their mechanic for any problems they might find. The main way to make this a worthwhile profession is to change with tort reform.

[@MyWTFName]

@@SuperEddietv Want rant? It's common knowledge if you spent time on the FBO ramp listening to their concerns. Nice troll attempt, although it missed it's mark :)

[@jhaedtler]

We need to bring back basic maintenance shops in our high schools. When I was a kid, 2 million years ago most high schools had aviation classes! I took apart my first A/c engine when I was 6 years old! I live a very great misspent youth around airplanes! I would not trade the life for anything!

[@kevinjarchow8812]

The large Intermediate School District near here has an Aviation Tech Center. Pretty cool stuff.

[@jessetait5839]

It won’t matter to piston GA. Kids can make more money playing video games for a KZbin audience than working on planes for peanuts.

[@hagj30]

And why should schools be training a new generation of low-wage workers? Schools only need to teach the "3Rs."

[@jhaedtler]

@@hagj30 you are only low wage if you're not able to do your job! As is with most kids today! Too much shit has been given to them and they have no values in their lives anymore! If you want good pay you have to be able to do something!

[@rogerwilco1910]

The title fits the reality because the mechanics are out there. I personally have a handful of friends who have their A and P and just simply dont work as mechanics because they can make a much better living doing something else. And not take the risk of liability. I personally use mine part time because I enjoy it, but i can make a lot more money even just working construction on the side. If you work GA its because you have a passion for it not because there is any money in it. Its really similar for flight instructors who teach long term and owners of small flight schools. You really just have to have a passion for it bacause more than likely you will just be making the bills and surviving

[@dabearsbriggs55]

What other type of job can you do with the A&P licenses?

[@johnjasinski6145]

At 57, I'm enrolled to start my A&P journey this fall.

[@matt11994]

Congrats John. At 42, I too have enrolled and will start this August. Cheers and best of luck.

[@P-MAC]

I'm 52 and will finish the 2-1/2 year program this December. Go get'em. John.

[@bjalbern]

I'm 40 and this is a change pf career for me but The (AIM) Aviation Institute of Maintenance program is a 22 month program straight on with only 1 week off for spring break and 1 week off for christmas. I started Feb 2020 and I'm graduating this Oct 2021, plus you can take your FAA General, Airframe and Powerplant knowledge exam as soon as you finish those sections, instead of taking it all at once at the end of the program.

[@StackingTrucker]

Wait what? Here I am at 40 thinking I'm to old to change careers now you have me thinking 🤔

[@joshuac2594]

How's the training going?

[@christopherm7702]

I've got the answer. Stop treating the mechanics like trash, pay a decent wage that is in line with the responsibility, and be willing to train someone to the level needed to become a confident proficient mechanic. I love GA and would definitely go back to work again if I could. I would also love to mentor others to become mechanics. The bottom line is "Don't treat us like a secondhand piece of trash." Contrary to this video, there is not a shortage of potential mechanics/certified mechanics, there are too many old-timers and good old boys within the GA side of the industry who are not willing to actually teach the trade. Lastly, modernize the FAA curriculum and make sure the schools weed out incompetent teachers and students who have no business touching a piece of machinery.

[@KlarLynn]

I agree with the updating in schooling. I'm learning from a presentation from 2016 based on a different book, work sheets only given when we as a class ask for more work to understand and they are based out of the old jeppesen book, no actual homework, the LSPs exams are odd. I'm still in the general part. I'm having to teach myself and ask the GA old timers, engineers at my air field for help. I'm helping a friend build an RV so I can actually build skills.

[@scottclute8413]

Is there cause for concern??? Regarding A.I.or Intellectual Property interference from China or Russia????

[@scottclute8413]

Would like to have a mentor please. Where would one apply????

[@scottclute8413]

Yes!!! O.J.training/mentoring.

[@scottclute8413]

Why is it true these young turks only demand fast money???

[@klesmer]

My first career choice was to become an A&P. When I started to look into it I found out after 2 or so years of training I could make more money pumping gas and changing oil at a gas station. So I became a ASE Master and spent my years working on high line European cars. My heart was still in aviation and still is.

[@robertthomas5906]

That's the thing about European cars, steady line of clients.

[@VGreggUndercover]

Bro I totally feel you. I’ve been working on flight school aircraft the past 7 years and still make less than most chic-fila workers. Fucking sad

[@garyhinkle4917]

As an A&P for a lot of years, I now stay mostly with experimental planes doing condition inspections. I've worked GA to big jets. But today, I don't need some lawyer trying to take everything I own. A lot of aircraft owners are a pain in the butt. I don't need their crap. Sorry folks. I miss working on small planes. Some of you have caused this problem, not the A&Ps.

[@AKSuperDually]

Agreed, although most of the experimental owners were the worst in my experience.

[@charlesmobley7782]

You have my respect, I can tell you know your stuff,it drives me nuts we people talk about experimental annual inspections and have no idea what a condition inspection is,lol.

[@techsource2235]

You have no protection whatsoever like doctors who are never responsible for signing wrong prescriptions? No insurance coverage in such cases?

[@johnwingfieldjr.5871]

Any opportunity to listen to the wisdom of Paul New is time well spent. Many valuable nuggets were spoken by those interviewed!

[@stevebrown5341]

I’m an IA and I would love to expand my skills and work on GA. But there is also a problem was not discussed too much. The cost and threat of liability. Very much of your overhead goes to liability insurance. Thank goodness the FAA has lately taken a more helpful attitude in both flying and maintenance issues. I would so far as to say that there are probably a lot of A&Ps that stay away from GA because of not only the pay and benefits, but the risks of mistakes. Good show. These are issues that many do not want to address.

[@alanswanson1952]

Graduated as an A&P 1993 when I started the program I was a laborer for a masonry company. By the time I graduated I was a brick layer. Sadly a bricklayer makes about twice the pay as an A&P. Still the same today poor pay.

[@olbuck]

Great episode! The numbers are against the A& P. The fleet is old, as pointed out, and new sales are a shadow of the old days, so flight hours will dwindle by private owners. Cost of insurance will park many older aircraft. Cost of electronics will shut down another group of aircraft. Parts will become almost unobtanium, by price and availability. Perhaps 3D printing will help in some ways. Competitive jobs are paying well, without education. The FAA should have a major hand in spreading the news about the occupation and streamline the training with electronic courses. These days an A&P should ba able to work with an iPad laying by his side inside the plane with automatic updates and cross references and diagrams that can by blown up to see details...I'll bet many are still working with the fat manual in thick binders that stay in the office or on a workbench. Another factor of the last fifty years is that the military no longer provides basic mechanics as with an all turbine fleet, ex-military are sucked up by the turbine world which is steadily growing and expanding and generally paying better. To keep enough to work on active aircraft, the wages must be increased significantly, which will lead to a bunch of old flivers being scrapped, and the active planes will cost a fortune. It is a tuff nut.

[@javajav3004]

Hit the nail on the head here

[@stanley917]

TCC (Tarrant County College) here in Fort Worth offers an Aviation Maintenance Technology program which preps the student to obtain an A&P certificate. Since it is a 'community college', costs are relatively low.

[@refutedbeans7624]

I took a&p classes there my senior year in hs and loved it!

[@flyer16612]

I do air conditioning work and have worked inside this facility several times. I am also a private pilot and was blown away at how large this place is. Their is something for everyone interested in aviation there. It is located at Alliance airport and I would suggest it to anyone interested in being a mechanic or a pilot.

[@flyhigh5056]

And very long wait list last I heard

[@nicholasdheedene9736]

I’m an A/P, I went into it wanting to work in GA (General Aviation). The highest paying job I saw in GA was $25/hr. I’m now working full time at an airline for $40/hr, and I’ll be at $50 in five years. The money and the benefits were just not available in GA. I heard the one guy saying he needs to be competitive with FedEx. In the commercial world, FedEx and UPS are at the top, pay wise, I believe they start at $36 and top out at $65. I’d like to know what he pays his guys.

[@kylel7158]

Question about airlines - I was told by someone that they don't like to hire anp older than 39?

[@cessnarigging]

You Guy's & Gal's did a good job shedding some light on a very misunderstood industry. Smaller & independent shops are on the decline for many of the reasons brought up in this video. Service and Maintenance or "lack-of" for 30-40 years takes its toll on an aging fleet. Parts cost has increased at alarming rates and FBO or A&P Parts discounts are virtually non-existent anymore. Not many other professions have seen this sort of deep cut in profit vs increase in labor alone without any parts & materials adjustment. Great presentation showing some of the hard facts facing this trade. When Paul states one needs to have a passion for this type of work there is a sense of reality many Aircraft Owners aren't aware of. Owning an antique Aircraft and maintaining an Airworthy condition takes time and funding. New Aircraft are expensive and generally fall back into the parts change and warranty mindset with very little long term service outlook.

[@cturdo]

Y'all can go and let Christy do the hosting! Great topic!

[@pilotchristy]

🙌

[@charlesfrantz230]

Christy, as an A&P this was a great topic. Would love to see the FAA and owners come in and discuss the same subjects. One issue I have seen with owners doing they're own maintenance is DOCUMENTATION. You would be surprised at the amount of non documented maintenance that is done on GA aircraft. Example: An owner had voltage regulator issue, a certified part was $200.00 the same part purchased but not certified from NAPA was $75.00. When the log book was reviewed this part was not DOCUMENTED as being replaced, why because the owner knew it was not an authorized part. Guess we're the responsibility falls if they're is an incident, IF the IA did not pick up that this part was installed while doing. the Annual Inspection on the aircraft he/she becomes liable. A&P's and IA's do GA maintenance for the love of aviation, not the wages. If the past is an indication I can see the FAA allow Owners to do even more work on his/her aircraft. Sorry for the long winded opinion.

[@javajav3004]

Another issue of documentation is illegible records along with records that are missing. Digitizing documentation ought to be more widespread among GA

[@jessetait5839]

Just like the “CFI shortage,” it’s not a shortage of qualified personnel, it’s a shortage of pay. Throw in the crushing liability exposure heaped on maintenance professionals by the General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994 (terrible name, btw) and the dumbest thing a high school grad could do would be to pursue a career in GA maintenance. Congress killed off small GA in 1994, it’s just taking a while for the poison to work.

[@dotydude]

Us owners need to stop being such tight-wads and pay our A&P's what they are worth. And we need to do anything we can to make the job more enjoyable. It will be worth it in the end.

[@matthewmartin7639]

Say it louder for the people in the back!!!! Amen!

[@zeewulfeh]

One avenue which you and your guests didn't discuss for getting an a&p is via military experience. I spent 6 years active duty in an aviation MOS and was able to test based off of sheer experience maintaining helicopters. I just needed a little two week help course to get familiar with the fars and prep for the test. And for the record, here in the airlines we've got a shortage of mechanics as well.

[@cessnarigging]

I had a General & Airframe sign-off due to my MOS (Airframes). Had to take a Powerplant course for my "P" that was discouraging as there was nothing there ever taught or discussed of value (very-very basic stuff). It would be good if Military would promote this MOS based license application prior to separation. In their better interest keeping you enlisted once trained.

[@dustinalexander4620]

I concur with the above comments. Airframe here. I thought the military would have consolidated A&P by now. But still haven't. But there are so many diverse aircraft and those power plants are not simple either.

[@aorton7829]

I agree, The military should do more to promote A&P to their mechs. There should be an avenue to gain the missing experience if they want to. The FAA should step up and work something out so that transitioning from military to civilian is an easier thing to do. Not every military aircraft mechanic wants to keep doing it after they get out, but there are a lot who would. But when it comes time, they either don’t know that they could, or don’t know how to make it happen because there’s no guidance.

[@hpijeep]

Y’all calling a 1981 an antique. I’m over here like 🤭🤭 As an owner of a 1960 182 and a 1967 Mooney I’d love to have something as new as a 1981 lol. Great video as always!

[@SciWorx]

Ha! 1954 Piper Tri-Pacer!!!!!

[@alanaspurling6469]

1959 Piper Tri Pacer, which happens to have an earlier version of the same motor as a million Cessna 172’s and Piper Cherokee’s and Warriors.

[@SciWorx]

@@alanaspurling6469 I love my Tri-Pacer. I just got a SkyBeacon for it.

[@JonByrd]

Ha! Same here! I have a 1962 Navion G1 Rangemaster and a 1969 Piper Cherokee 140B. Classic/Antique aircraft are about the only aircraft I can afford to own... and mainly because I can maintain and inspect them myself without needing to pay anyone.

[@davidsommerfeld2955]

When I heard 1981 and antique in the same sentence I thought our 1958 Cessna 172 was in the ancient age category. I have to admit that our straight tail Cessna is an instant conversation starter. It attracts attention like the old classic muscle cars. The best thing is it’s paid for, fairly easy on the pocket book with MoGas or auto fuel and the cost of annuals haven’t hit us too hard.

[@JonByrd]

I’ve been in the Part 147 AMTS training world for 20+ years now and there are a LOT true, valid points in this video. Great job. Thank you for thinking of, creating, and publishing this video.

[@pamagee2011]

Shops need to understand that they can charge more and pay their technicians more. This is a crisis situation. Believe me, if you lose customers who insist on cheap work, there are people like me who will gladly take their place.

[@johnwingfieldjr.5871]

Agreed. We start our techs at $25 or more + full benefits. Gotta pay to play.

[@tylerp6375]

Absolutely agree higher prices can be charged. My A&P works his butt off and it consistently slammed. I feel bad taking the plane in for annual. The rates should be high enough to attract more techs - id be happy to pay more for getting the airplane in to the shop on a reasonable amount of time!

[@stuartessex4535]

Woh, you have opened my eyes Christy! Being from the UK, I had no idea there was a shortage of A & P's in the States. I could be completely wrong, but get the feeling you have a lot more privately owned aircraft, so guessed there was an aircraft workshop on every corner. I read somewhere that the average age of a light aircraft is 44 years old, so lets hope there is still a future for the industry! Stu

[@javajav3004]

Hey Stuart. There tons of privately owned aircraft here across the pond.

[@stuartessex4535]

Thanks Java. Happy landings!

[@ptdave123]

This is a very good video and the information given is very important today the same as it was 40 years ago when I went to an A&P school in Cheyenne Wyoming. After getting my pilot license, I went to machinist school and worked as a machinist for several years while I continued flying for fun. I then decided I wanted to work on general aviation aircraft. After 5 years as an A&P I learned that you did this for the love of it not for the money as it was very little pay for what you were required to do and know. A lot of time is spent researching AD’s, maintenance manual, service bulletins and continuing to update your knowledge. A very strong key word was spoken many times LIABILITY. This is a very big part of working on aircraft. Your signature goes into the log books stating what work you did and you certify that this is done by the books and is airworthy. Anything goes wrong and your name is in the book you are called upon to verify what you did. I think it is great that these people are doing meetings with young people and schools to introduce them to aviation. It is the same thing that is being done to get more pilots which is going through the same thing. More pilot and A&P’s are needed to keep aviation going.

[@charlesherrera6535]

I’ve been an automotive mechanic for 30 years and now for the past 3 years I changed over to become an a&p. Thankfully I have had a successful career in automotive otherwise I wouldn’t be able to afford making the switch. I personally know lube techs at the dealership who are making more money with benefits. GA shops need to raise their rates, offer insurance or possibly 401k benefits?

[@javajav3004]

I'd honestly go with a ROTH and invest through that over a 401k. Insurance would be a lot better bet.

[@knoxflier5171]

I agree plane mechanics are under paid, given what labor rates are at automotive dealers as an example.

[@BraapZ]

Thank you Christy, great topic. 😎👍 More A&P discussions in the future to help bring more awareness of the shortage.

[@skinnerhound2660]

My son is an A&P for a major. He went to community college for two years and worked for a small seaplane airline while attending. The college had a great established program and the tuition was reasonable. He is union and earns more in his short tenure than I ever did during my career. His benefits are excellent along with retirement. He is now on to advancing to an I. A. position.

[@RobtheAviator]

That is great news Skinner! Perhaps if more success stories like this were available to prospective A&P’s, the industry wouldn’t be in such decline.

[@TheReadBaron91]

More power to him to get his IA, but unless he’s working small planes on the side or plans on in the future he won’t need it at the airlines.

[@prestonmiller9552]

Excellent subject matter Christi. Part of the problem is also the very same problem many of the trades such as carpentry, electrical, and plumbing are suffering. That is, the schools are just not focusing on trades these days. Everyone is focused on tech careers and computer sciences. It's nice to be able to sit at a desk and push buttons and get paid well for it. But the fact is lots of work still requires the hands on skills and physical labor. Also, the misnomer is that if you have a degree you will automatically make more money. Not always the case. Lots of carpenters and Electricians and plumbers have a healthier bank account than people with expensive college degrees. If you are not really college material, you may want to look at the trades and that even includes A&P careers. You still will need an education but you may have more satisfaction. I think the other mistake many people make is simply focusing on money. There is a satisfaction that comes from the work and making big bucks can't buy that satisfaction or sense of accomplishment.

[@s35bonanzapilot84]

I don't think anyone getting into GA A&P work is expecting to make the big bucks, but a livable wage would be nice. Unfortunately, these days making $25/hr is not even close to a liveable wage. It's sad, but true.

[@aaronlindstedt2057]

Yes but a good wage pays a hefty mortgage needed for a family.

[@chaddthompson]

It takes way too much time to become an A&P you basically can't do anything else work wise while going to A&P school, so it totally rules out anyone who is currently working and wants to become an A&P. Also the pay just isn't there for the responsibility A&P has, the shops are getting paid but it doesn't seem like they are sharing that with the Mechanics. As the guys in this video mentioned it's not rocket science and there needs to be an easier way to enter the field.

[@P-MAC]

I'd disagree with your first sentence as I'm maintaining a full-time job (unrelated to the field) and going to school at night full-time. It is a MONSTER, especially at my age. But it is doable. I certain can agree with what you're saying overall. A lot of these young dudes in my school are probably unrealistic and expecting to haul loads of money to the bank from their new A&P job when they complete the program. I'm a bit more realistic and income is not my primary motivating factor.

[@chaddthompson]

@@P-MAC Maybe it is different at different schools but the school closest to us here requires 8 hour days during the day monday-friday. I went to school while working also but school requirements weren't 8hrs per day 5 days a week. If you are working 8hrs a day and going to A&P school 8hrs a day great job man but you have to be worn down. Hopefully there are some schools out there making A&P programs easier for working people but they don't in this area at lest.

[@P-MAC]

@@chaddthompson Our school does 4-10:30pm, Monday through Thursday, so I'm going 4-days per week. Not quite the workload as the one in your area, but still pretty dang tough and I'm pretty worn down. A local Jr. college runs the program and whenever there is a holiday calling for a day off, we take off but the FAA requires us to make it up! Not really a holiday then, huh? Haha. Yea, man. They certainly don't go out of their way to make it easy to attain this training.

[@chaddthompson]

@@P-MAC Those hours would for sure make it more doable but still rough for sure. I still think they need to revisit the requirements to get more A&P's into the system because there is a definite shortage at this point in time.. I also think that A&P's are getting grabbed up by other industries before they even hit the Aviation job market and are probably getting paid more by those other industries with fewer liabilities.

[@refutedbeans7624]

I did dual credit aircraft maintenance my senior year, it was hidden in my school districts classes and there was 3 people from my school district taking that class.. I loved every second of it though!

[@michaeljohn8905]

I’m 49 and my career change has been one of the best things I ever did ! Im doing it the 30 month apprentice way and im so glad I did. No disrespect to those who go the school way but im so happy I went through the apprentice route. I would have never gotten the experience that I got any other way. Best thing. I also am a pilot so our flight school tests out airplanes after we do repairs so I usually always get to fly and taxi a lot. If you like aviation man this is the way to go.

[@lucifermorningstar4548]

That’s why even though I have my A&P I’ve never used it. I make over $37/hr building planes at Lockeed Martin. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@javajav3004]

Damn man hook me up lol

[@lucifermorningstar4548]

@@javajav3004 we hiring in Marietta, GA.

[@javajav3004]

@@lucifermorningstar4548 Nice. For what positions? any way I can get in contact with you to speak on it further

[@james94582]

@@lucifermorningstar4548 funny you should say that... I've applied there multiple times and never heard anything back... Guess, that goes in the who you know thing too though... Since I work on the other side of the runway, one weekend a month, that'd be an awesome full time job... Have enjoyed any part of aviation I can get into...

[@brettsouthall357]

Really need to update the FAR's to allow owners more freedom to work on their planes. I appreciate the training required, but as a mechanical engineer, the required knowledge isnt rocket science. Should be a A&P Light version for owners to perform their own maintenance.

[@drgreene1013]

There is, its called far part 43.3 and 43.7. Pilot/owners like you are the reason why no a&p mx want to work in GA. Just because you’re an engineer doesn’t mean your a mechanic

[@johnallen9819]

Main problem is pilot/owners not recording what they do.

[@brettsouthall357]

@@drgreene1013 seen several guys with A&P cert that I wouldn’t qualify as mechanics either…

[@MrBe787]

That’s the best looking A&P I’ve seen.

[@DanzRdy]

I think a heck of a lot more high school grads would go into A&P school if there were the guarantee there would be folks such as she in class.

[@MrBe787]

@@DanzRdy true, very true!

[@MichaelLloyd]

$100/hr is very reasonable. When I was in the business of programming control and safety systems my rates varied between $100 and $120 / hr. I've been out of that business (a customer hired me) for over 5 years and the rates are in the $150/hr range for experienced programmers. I'd put A&P's responsibility a hair over programming a safety system. Everything they do is safety related.

[@barbaralane9825]

Interesting to see this. My son worked on industrial equipment (diesel, gas, hydraulic, electrical, LNG - some of all of it). He’s good at actually fixing things and understanding how stuff works versus being a parts replacer. After working on some stuff at an air NG bases and some regional airports he was offered some side work by an A&P who had seen his work. He declined. When I asked why he said having the responsibility for those people in the air (regardless of the fact that he would have been closely supervised) was not for him. He had honestly never heard of A&P before.

[@javajav3004]

Lord we need that level of talent. Best of luck to you and your son

[@christopherm7702]

You have a smart son in more ways than one.

[@jimprior5700]

Interesting discussion . I worked in air cargo for many years starting in 1966 and I had a great career. I never worked in GA but my airline work was very rewarding because I was interested all phases of Mx. Some people were satisfied to change parts I loved trouble shooting and I also was on a list where I went along on charters as a flt. mech. or did trips to fix a broken aircraft. It was great but it's different strokes for different folks. A lot of people want to limit there responsibility. A lot guys taught me a lot and I was glad to pass along my knowledge, not everyone does. Good luck to any one who is willing to work strange hours and days off.

[@peterfrenzel1826]

ha ha Christy, you heard him....the Wong Warrior is antique lol, well then I guess my 1971 cherokee 140 is a senior antique.

[@pamagee2011]

I recently sold my last airplane. My inability to find competent mechanics is what drove me out of aircraft ownership. I don’t know how many times I’ve called a shop with a squawk only to be told they couldn’t work on my airplane because they were swamped.

[@KevinSmithAviation]

Great job Christy, great episode. 🤘🇺🇸🛩️

[@jhonnyextremo]

one day old video!!!!! was a shortage a year ago for everything in aviation..... today and for the next 5 years we will be lucky to go back to normal..... at this moment how many students are willing to study and spend money and years waiting for a basic salary .. this video is outdate... i was a rock start until last year, now i been offer work with all my experience at half of the last year rate.

[@USA-GreedyMenOfNoIntegrity]

Don’t forget many of us trained in the military. I joined the Army when supposedly 44,000 A&P’s were needed. After 5 yrs working on Blackhawks and volunteering at the local airports, going to school at night, learning to TIG weld, I got my A&P. Sent out 120 resumes. Took the one and only offer $12/hr in 1993. Overhauled turbine engines for 4 years, while using my GI Bill for 2 yrs HVAC school. Started out at $13/hr. Started my own business. $89/hr now. Paid off tro new vehicles. Built a home. Became debt free. Got my PP certificate, built an RV-10. No way was I going to work on aircraft for $12-$20/hr for the next 30 years for a bunch of greedy corporate suits with a “better than you” attitude. These small and large corporations are writing off their aircraft, hangar rent, insurance, maintenance, fuel and family vacations. No thanks to A&P work except my own work.

[@michaeldougfir9807]

I wish to agree with Roger Wilco. I am an arborist. Have been since the 1980s. There is not a fortune to be made in that. And I don't care for the certifying agency (ISA.) So I struck out on my own, continued my studies (both formally and privately.) Now I am old guy who cares for trees. People come to me by word of mouth. I don't grab their check book and wring it out. I just do good work by the rules. My wife is my apprentice. We are happy, doing what we like. Side note: Like so many of our folks and grandparents have often worked a second job. For me it was Mortuary work. I retired from that but still help where I can. Just yesterday I spent 40 minutes with a widow. She needed some important facts, and to be cleared of a lot of the common talk that is out there re survivors of veterans! (Tip: in the US, don't look to the V.A. They have very little for you. And if your loved one wasn't killed in action, there is little the VA will do for you! Not much more than a headstone. Also there is a whole system of National Cemeteries. Don't think of just Arlington. An honorably discharged veteran has the right to be buried in a National Cemetery. They are in several states. Anything more than that I say talk with an experienced mortician who is a veteran.) Now to bring a couple of these things together, some of my mortuary work began in and around Ventura County in southern California. We handled aviation crash decedents all the time. Private pilots to hang glider guys and everything in between. It is obvious to me that there is a great lack of avation education in that area of the country. One time we were conducting an aviation related graveside funeral in the cemetery in Camarillo. There is a mountainside above that cemetery. During the services a helicopter kept going back and forth over our heads. They were hooking a cable up to parts of a private plane that had recently crashed straight into that mountain side. That was pretty macabre. Conducting that graveside service while airplane parts from another fatal crash were being carried over our heads. Now back to Roger Wilco. Follow your passion. Your life will be better -- happier I think -- if you do what you like and excel at it. The American dream is a lovely thing. May just pursue parts of it. But you and your family can be happy with just a decent living. Look at many rich people, including lottery winners. Mostly sad stories. If you can make a decent living, go to church and help others you may well find contentment. Now, what's wrong with that? PS: Would Mike Rowe be interested in this episode of your show? Please ask him.

[@paratyshow]

Christy has a big heart!

[@pilotchristy]

Thanks! ☺️

[@almarasco8088]

The sad part a person at home Depo makes just as much as an A&P or more. Shops need to charge more and pay there A&P more. Its sad to say pilots are cheap and don’t want to pay.

[@lgarrison4610]

Insurance costs have driven me out of maintenance. I’m not interested in doing $2000 annual inspections and for a reasonable fee I’m not willing to give all my revenue to an underwriter.

[@h2otek312]

It isn't just A&P's, you guys hit the nail on the head regarding the lack of awareness for skilled vocational ed in schools. There is a looming crisis in things like municipal water treatment and wastewater treatment. All us old guys are getting ready to retire, and our "youngster" is 40 years old.... No doubt many other technical fields as well. There will likely be a serious impact to all society before long unless this changes. I hope Mike Rowe does a segment on the need within aviation to help get the word out.

[@VGreggUndercover]

Yep I’ve been an A&P for 7 years and haven’t moved up the pay scale at all. Still being paid less than most Chic-fila workers and I now have my IA… Time for me to find a different job I know lol. But I find it a HUGE problem at that our GA shop rates are 80-100hr. It’s hilariously sad for all of us A&P’s

[@KlarLynn]

I'm in school now for my A&P to keep our vintage planes flying. The program is tough, lots of information but not very engaging so I can see why people don't finish. I'm secretly trying to convert some classmates to the GA side. I dream of a repair shop for 337 and taylorcrafts.

[@fattirestol1135]

I've been an A&P for 24 years. I'm also a private pilot with powered and glider ratings. I have used my skills and A&P rating to barter repairs and labor for additional flight ratings and supplement financing additional flying, hanger rent and fuel. I prefer working on the "real" antiques, tube and fabric planes, tailwheel, and aerobatic planes. I'm retired from a career in industry in mechanical and electrical fields, and now work as an A&P full time. I have watched General Aviation change thru the years, with increases in certificated parts prices, insurance costs often doubling in a year, and difficulties getting insurance at all as you age, particularly after age 70. I have friends that pay more for a years worth of insurance than I paid for my first plane! GA isn't within reach for many blue collar workers as it once was. I also agree with the statement about owners picking up their planes, without paying the invoice, and trusting the bill will get paid in a timely manor. At a car repair shop, you won't get your keys until you pay your bill. I agree that it needs to be more business like, unfortunately because of people taking advantage of the trust issue. I think the part of the job I hate the most is telling an owner about expensive repairs that will be required, but that's part of being an airplane owner. The best thing is I get to hang out at the airport all day, be around lots of different type of aircraft, and pilots, and listen to and tell hanger tales!

[@derickmjones]

Dan/Christy- if you ever do an in the hangar on Maintenance Safety/woes, I have a story for you that every pilot and especially owner should learn from/hear. I’ve been trying to get this story out there, hoping to save a life some day. Let me know if your interested.

[@arthouston7361]

I had been a hot rodder as a child (age 11 - 21) and when I left music radio in the Big City (age 37) I found work as a general mechanic. I had 33 ASE certs, including four master's certificates. I wanted to fly for Mission Aviation Fellowship, and they wanted an A and P cert. I looked into it, and having already spent 3 years and 60k to get my Commercial, CFII/MEI, I found out.....that the FAA has no system for acknowledging any mechanic's experience or testing that could reduce the time and expense of getting the A and P. Ironically, when I was flying Lears, I helped explain the vintage R12 AC system so the "real" airplane mechanics could fix it. I helped a friend learn how the electrical system works so he could get his type rating. I even lent out my electronic leak detector and explained how to find a leak in the evaporator. Not long after that, I sold my last jug of R12 to a medical specimen testing corporate flight department. Old 310's and a King Air with...R12 AC So, this is the environment that has been created: protection for the schools (they WILL get the students) and hostility to any talented outsiders. High cost, low pay, slow advancement, high barriers to entry, and liability. No, I never did fly for MAF. I never worked at our flight school in the hangar. I DID store my snap on boxes there for about a year. Is there any wonder these guests on this panel cannot find people to help them? This is my surprised face.

[@Mdkeiper]

Thanks for an important topic. As a 40 year Mechanic and a 15 year IA it’s good to see the industry starting to recognize the need for good maintainers and step up to pay them what their worth.

[@LC-jy8mj]

My dad was a AP for major airlines. From 1950s until the 1970s . He worked on all the DC aircraft’s up to the Boeing 727 and the Sud Caravelle , Connie too

[@i.r.wayright1457]

Yes, I thought about becoming an A&P, in 1965. Went to the local trade school for 2 years, got the tickets, 3 years on Army helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. 42 years in the business, 16 as an I.A. and about 10 as a D.O.M. By 2016 my body started to complain about getting up off a creeper. I had been running my own one man shop for 12 years. You will know when it is time to quit when you get up off the floor and stand in front of your tool box, wondering what the hell you got up there for. You may find Army or Air Force types looking for A&P jobs but sometimes their jobs were too narrowly focused on one system. Kids getting out of school these days.............well, I don't really want to go there. One of the businesses I worked for we bought and sold planes, after I fixed them up. OMG, some of the things I have seen. In the last few months I was in operation a new customer wanted to bring his J-3 in for an annual. I resisted until his third call, finally telling myself, well, how bad can you screw up a J-3. Boy did I find out. I had over 30 write ups including an AD note that had not been done for over 20+ years. Do I miss it, nope. BTW, every private pilot license ought to include glider instruction and a healthy dose of Dan Grider under your wings.

[@javajav3004]

Thank you for your service in this industry. People like you guide young guys like us

[@i.r.wayright1457]

@@javajav3004 I only stayed in the business the last 12 years because I wanted to keep my customers (my friends) safe in the air.

[@javajav3004]

@@i.r.wayright1457 They're all the better for it

[@charlesmobley7782]

I totally agree with you, most people think military mechanics have a wide range of capabilities which is not true. I like to bring up the fact that mos training in the military is only a few months, with careers lasting as short as just a few years,whereas the bare minimum a&p school mandatory requirement is 1900 hours which is 30-40 weeks for a solid 2 years, or 30 months of OJT ,basically the a&p school training if far more than military. But again getting your A&P is a LICENSE TO LEARN.

[@yashwa24]

Currently studying for my orals, finished school about 5 years ago and never followed the through the testing process after I found out a local airport was starting A&ps at 23/hr. I’ve since picked the books back up because airlines are desperate, hiring without experience and starting you at 34/hr. The tides are shifting

[@TakingOff]

Good luck!!

[@aaronlindstedt2057]

Sure hope so... under paid for quite some time now.

[@AshtonCoolman]

A&Ps should talk to school districts and get the word out to the guidance counselors. Local airports should get involved as well. I'm sure parents and kids would love to get to be around some planes to learn about them.

[@hagj30]

Why? It is a low-wage career. Become an electrician or something more stable and financially regarding.

[@alje311]

@@hagj30 its only a low wage career in GA. The airlines offer a good paying, stable career, I was at a career fare not too long ago at one school and the airline tables had people crowded around them while GA shops had a couple takers. Even students knew they should go to the tables manned by Spirit, Skywest, United, etc.

[@pi.actual]

To work for the airlines you must have an A&P license. They are all union jobs with benefits and average around $50/hour pay. The mechanic is largely shielded from the liability aspects by the company. The down sides are you may not get to pick your location and you'll most likely be on afternoon or night shift. The question of who will maintain the recreational and hobby flyer's old Cherokee is a tough one to answer. Perhaps rather than thinking of this as a shortage of A&P's it should be thought of as a shortage of funds to support the proper maintenance of such aging aircraft. I have a 1946 Luscombe and I'm pretty sure that when those guys were bucking the rivets back on the assembly line in '46 they never dreamed that this thing would still be flying 75 years later in the year 2021. Aviation is expensive and if it's a hobby rather than a business it may be difficult to pony up the cash required to keep it going but that's the only solution.

[@matt11994]

Paul, all of these comments about low pay are scaring the crap out of me. Your comment gives me hope. Have you any insight into the possibility of a new mechanic signing on with a major airline landing a high paying union job? I’m starting my 2 years of A&P at community college and quitting a good paying job to do so.

[@alje311]

@@matt11994 I'm a new mechanic going into the airlines, I applied at a major air carrier and they accepted me with just an airframe on the condition that I will get my powerplant within 60 days. Once that happens I will be inducted into a newhire class. The pay is close to $30hr starting and caps off in the $50/hr range. The schedules are flexible for folks who don't like being stuck with a rigid 9-5 schedule (some folks actually prefer working afternoon vs mornings and they might want weekdays off). The low pay seems to be mainly a GA thing because even regional airlines are bumping up the pay scales with some starting mechanics off in the $25/hr range + benefits. Out of my class of 25 people all but 3 want to go into the airlines mainly due to pay and the fact that the work can be easier, the Boeing and Airbus manuals are leagues ahead of many GA manuals.

[@christopherdowney6055]

I would love to get my A&P certificate, but having a full-time career already and a family makes it difficult. Most programs I've seen only offer classes during the day. There aren't any night/weekend options out there.

[@P-MAC]

I'm taking the A&P course in the evenings, from 4-10:30pm in Louisville, KY. It's rough, as I work during the day. I leave work at 3pm to get there on time. In exchange for leaving early, my boss requires me to come in an hour early--this sucks, as I am perpetually sleep deprived but I'm almost there now. 7-weeks to go and I can finally catch up on some sleep!

[@aaronlindstedt2057]

The problem with night and weekends is the FAA current time in seat requirement of 1900 hrs. I had to go to school full time work nights and weekends...not to mention have a patient wife😂 good luck man its a commitment.

[@matthewmartin7639]

I've been an A&P for just over 3 years as of writing this. Took the 147 route and also picked up a B.S. in Aerospace Maintenance Management along the way. I work in the GA world for a flight school that is smack dab in the middle of a major international airport. Hundred hours, engine TBO, general routine maintenance, accident maintenance (prop strike, wing reskin, etc) and a whole host of other stuff is just some of what I do on a daily basis. At some point I will probably look at getting my IA. But that temptation to jump ship and go to an airline where I could be making 3 times the money and doing half the work is always gnawing away at me. I have turned down multiple job offers every single day, one of them would have let me bring in over $80k/year. But, I love my job and the people I work with are my family. However, at the same time, at the end of the day, I don't feel like I'm getting what I'm worth. My advice is to just stop. Let your A&P do his/her job. If it takes 4 hours than it takes 4 hours. If it takes him/her two months, then so be it. Just let them do their job so that you can do yours safely. I don't mind if a pilot is curious about how their airplane works. I will gladly explain how a combustion engine works, especially if I have one torn apart or a cylinder off of one where we can actually see inside. Or if I have a magneto torn apart, showing them how it all works. But these panelists hit it on the head. It is not my job to make it affordable. It's my job to make it safe.

[@dalev1319]

Low pay unless you have your own gig. I have a&p and now work on trucks and make four times the money.

[@michaelrepas2486]

Don’t forget the huge investment in tools. You can’t work on a plane without the right tools.

[@bottomshot4546]

any mechanic job requires this

[@johntony6974]

I can only speak for Army.. but making A&P licensing apart of AIT/tech training, or offering more opportunities during service to obtain it would help a TON. You guys don’t realize how many people are in military aviation that love what they do, but go a completely different rout when they exit the military. I’ve worked on Apache helicopters for 6 years. The last year as a maintenance inspector. But I don’t have an A&P and sadly (as much as I love the work) don’t have the time/means to get an A&P. Especially after seeing some of the wages an A&P gets you, I very likely won’t be working in this industry when I get out. It sucks, but it is what it is.

[@TakingOff]

Wow. You’d think your experience would get you an A&P.

[@flyingjeff1984]

"Circle back" Thanks Jenn. ;)

[@richardtruesdell8289]

I heard that too.

[@leeadams5941]

You missed a path...military...depending on the mos once you have the required training and experience all you have to do is sit for the test which is what I did for both AF and PP and the next week took my FE test and check ride as I wanted to have the tickets when I retired. It also makes it easier to deal with the pay when you have a couple of retirement checks coming in.

[@raymundlara5531]

21 years old just got my A&P license, let me just say a A&P license is a license to learn!

[@jumpinjack1]

Paul New did a talk for an IA seminar up here in Wa., excellent speaker. Problem with GA a/p mechanics is the experience level one has to be at. It takes a lot of diverse training in multiple subjects to be good at it, you can not give someone a manual and say go do this like the big airlines/mro's. Each seasoned ga aviation mech. is more like a craftsman, the very good ones don't move around because they have all the work they can handle are valued and paid what there worth.

[@peteranderson037]

I think the problem is that there is no equivalent of a "private pilot" license on the AMT side of things. Becoming an AMT (a.k.a. an A&P) is not something you can casually get into, you basically have to drop whatever you're doing and make a career out of it. I have a full time job outside of aviation and I can casually on the side pick up a commercial certificate and a CFI rating (and I'm thinking about doing just that), but there's no way to do anything similar if you also like to turn wrenches, which I also like to do. Yes, I'm aware I can get a Repairman certificate with a Light Sport rating, but that has limited utility.

[@AKSuperDually]

Aviation maintenance is a career that rightly has zero tolerance for mistakes and a huge basic knowledge base required. We call basic mechanics....apprentices.

[@peteranderson037]

@@AKSuperDually I was one of those AMT apprentices once upon a time. I was also a student pilot at the same time. I had to quit my apprenticeship (and my flying) to focus on other things. I was able to ultimately get my pilot's license on the side, but it looks like the opportunity to get my A&P has passed me by forever. To put things into perspective, right now I can get a commercial rating, CFI rating, or even a masters degree on the side without quitting my day job. However, if I want to turn wrenches on an aircraft that I own that isn't an E-AB or E-LSA I'd have to quit my high paying career to either be a full time student again or become an apprentice again for 2 1/2 years. You are correct that aviation maintenance is absolutely intolerant of mistakes, but so is flying the plane. Many people conflate the importance of aviation maintenance with this notion that maintenance is impossible to perform safely without years of training and practical experience. If that notion were true then pilot built and maintained E-AB aircraft would be falling out of the sky left and right. When E-AB aircraft do crash it is almost always due to pilot error and not because of a mechanical or structural failure. If anything, that proves that flying the plane can be more complex than maintaining or even building the plane. I just find it silly that the FAA has no problem with me building and maintaining any one of a number of complex and high performance kit planes, but if I so much as change the oil in a type certified Piper Cub without first being ordained a High Priest of Wrench Turning by the FAA then somehow the plane will fall right out of the sky.

[@javajav3004]

@@peteranderson037 "High Priest" lmao. Yeah man you make a really good point on the concept of true ownership and right to repair. You can work on a car and go 60 mph in dense traffic but can't work on your own Cherokee Six. There's an argument to be made there, but you run into horror stories and wild west discrepancies on aircraft that are done by owners and some shady high priests. I wish we could find a middle ground

[@ericlaw2416]

Or perhaps breaking it into subset certifications would get more fresh blood in the door. Owners themselves might go for smaller blocks of training. And tort reform.

[@AKSuperDually]

@@ericlaw2416 The mechanics license is already broken into 3 licenses or certifications, plus the additional Inspection Authorization.

[@maijdalshamsi2408]

Very good

[@jmoye8972]

The one guy definitely started to address the biggest problem with no A&Ps.....money. When an auto mechanic charges a labor rate of $120-$160 an hour and a GA piston shop charges $100 for a much more complex machine there is a problem. Many of these small GA shops are barely making ends meet because they are too afraid to raise rates due to the mobility of airplanes and fearing their customers will fly it somewhere else. I think there needs to be a reasonable coordinated effort among these places to raise rates. Also even though it may sound kind of bad a lot of owners are just cheap. Owning a plane is expensive and when a wealthy owner doesn't want to pay to upkeep their plane properly that is a problem. Aircraft mechanics have to have such a wide range of skill and knowledge and should be paid accordingly to support themselves.

[@robertohrenberg5449]

I used to teach a Part 147 curriculum. I had several students quit because they were already making more at a non-aviation job than they would after spending the money and two years to finish the A&P program. The return on investment is not there. You have to do it for the love of aviation and being a mechanic and troubleshooter, because you certainly aren't going to get rich.

[@winstonsmith6204]

Facts

[@grinchusmc3521]

Maybe I can turn my BSN into an A&P certification...🤔 There seems to be a general assumption that nurses make bank just for sitting around facebooking and playing cards 3 days/nights a week, and nothing could be further from the truth. As an RN, I absolutely understand the liability aspect of A&P work. I raised my family pulling wrenches for over 20 years before I changed careers. It's not out of the question for me to consider going back on my tools and nursing part time (Continuing Education required to maintain licensure). Doubtful the planes are gonna try to hit, kick, or cuss me. As for O/O maintenance: Just as with your personal health, there are many maintenance activities that you can do with general knowledge and it only costs your time + materials. Learn about the machine you are working on (your own body or your airplane) and do those things. See a licensed professional for problems or tasks that exceed your know and skillset or are otherwise prohibited by law without proper licensure. Be safe and be well!

[@robertlea8864]

I have also thought about going from BSN to A&P. I have been an ER nurse for 20 years, and burnout is real. My first love was airplanes. I went into Air Force right out of High School, spent 6 years and 1300+ hours flying as a radar operator on E-3 AWACS. I got my private license, but I haven't done much flying in recent years. I would love to go back to school and spend my time on airplanes.

[@grinchusmc3521]

@@robertlea8864 there's a lot more similarities than one might think. I had been pulling wrenches for right at 20 years, the last 7 in a Caterpillar dealership when I decided to change careers and go to college. I did my solo flight February 10, 1990 on my way out of Twentynine Palms, CA headed for Camp Lejeune, NC. Didn't fly GA again until about 2 months ago and I've got the fever bad! Gonna have to start over, but that's ok! Best of luck to you!

[@rvrob3boys]

I am an RV tech. I looked into several A&P programs and the main reason I didn't go was they charge the same as RV repair and the pay is similar. Last time I checked there are more RV's than aircraft. It was the economics that made me not transition.

[@mixter7x7]

by government classification - as an A&P - you are considered " UNSKILLED LABOR " because you can get your A&P through experience and because school is NOT required - you are called " UNSKILLED " when the big fan stops turning and the ground keeps getting bigger - let's talk about my skills. 1 - to find an a&p 2 - to find one with any common sense 3 - to find one with any work ethic 4 - to find one willing to work for an insulting wage. the risk, liability, working conditions, expectations of the business, expectations of the customers , having customers that go behind you working on your work after the aircraft leaves your possession. customers -- who own aircraft --- look at your tools, toolbox, the car you drive and say " you make too much money " customers that complain because you're on vacation when they want to fly to their second or third home but you're not available. AND THEN to work on corporate jets to work contract maintenance on heavy airlines. and make a wage less than a garbage truck driver.

[@winstonsmith6204]

Exaaaaaaaaaaactly, I have one more rotation and I'm out!!! I'm never looking back. I'm done with aviation maintenance for a job. I own an airplane (PA28). I'll work on it for myself. Good luck part 135s 😂 All the common sense mechanics are bailing also. The industry is going to hurt.

[@do8472]

great content, important topic.

[@westonwright5029]

Just finished 6 years In the airforce as an engine mechanic. I'll be testing for A&P next month after I finish my course. In my opinion, I have so much respect for GA mechanics because of the wide spectrum of skills and knowledge they have to do that kind of job. However for me, I am waaaaaay to intimidated to learn that part of the industry and put my name and livelihood on the line. They should be charging 2-3x more to compensate for the risk and liability those mechanics go through. It would also help bring alot of people into the industry. Until that changes, ima hop on a major airline with step by step instructions on how to work on their planes for a much higher pay.

[@robertthomas5906]

Sounds like things are a lot different than where I am in the Washington DC area. They pay the Mech's well and they expect to be paid when you pick up the aircraft. Much like if you had a car serviced. I've had big differences in skill. A few of my A&P/IAs have nearly killed me over the years. Others that are very good. The one that was hard to take is the guy that cross threaded the oil line into the adapter to the screen assembly. About a 1/8 turn and it came right out. E225 engine. It ran like that until the next time we did an annual. My new A&P couldn't believe it. It was a $7 brass part.

[@arthouston7361]

One more thing. I DID stop by a maintenance hangar at another airport closer to my home, and told the man of my background and interest in working on airplanes. He looked my straight in the eye and said that would be foolish, and that I should not pursue it. "There is no money in it." And, his name was on the sign. Does that tell you enough?

[@LeftSeatAdventures]

An A&P has been on my Aviation bucket list for some time now, but being in my mid thirties with a family and a mortgage, going back to school full time for 2+ years is not a reality. In my area, most shops don't want to take on an apprentice, they just want an a&p or 5 NOW. Pretty short sighted. That being said, I'm currently interviewing with a shop that's an hour away. Gotta go where the opportunity is!

[@capt_yeti]

Very informative episode. Thanks

[@JR-pt7lg]

20 years as an A&P and I walked away with a pay cut. This was less than a year ago. All your theories are wrong. I would not recommend anyone working as an A&P. I miss the airplanes and the work but ya not coming back. NGH new guy hard on with the guy from the Chek, f the guy that has given years of service.

[@SciWorx]

Getting ready to sit for my IA this fall.

[@i.r.wayright1457]

If you can swing it, I recommend Baker's School of Aeronautics adjacent the airport in Lebanon, Tennessee. The same instructor I had there 21 years ago is still there and she is great.

[@RobtheAviator]

Good luck! You will do great. I am an IA as well as an ATP. I can tell you the IA written was harder than the ATP

[@charlesmobley7782]

Don't be surprised if there questions on it that you've never seen before. Master practice tests for high 90% or 100% and that should get you over the newly never seen or difficult questions.

[@SciWorx]

@@charlesmobley7782 That is what worries me.

[@charlesmobley7782]

@@SciWorx you'll be fine, if you have a tablet ,iPad, etc get the asa IA test prep app,should be about 10 bucks on the app store,or a computer version is what 40 bucks? Just constantly test test test until your scores are hi 90s. Some questions will be similar but with different data, just understand what their looking for. My biggest complaint was that the test itself looked like dOS 5.0 from the 80s, totally old graphics. Trust me, if you score perfect on the practice tests you'll be fine. I just recall sitting there saying oh shit when a random irrelevant question appeared. Alot is how to use the charts and look things up using the data given. You'll be fine if you follow this method. This method works because the IA test covers a wide range, with some things most mechanics never seen or dealt with. I do recall one question I think about center of pressure on a delta wing or something like that, the test was reversed,kinda like practice test was A+B=C and the FAA test was C-B=A.

[@skipwood2059]

"Follow the money" mantra. Pay a higher wage and they will come. To do that, charge more for the service. Times have changed. Recruiting at high schools and military will help, but the passion has to be there.

[@2littlenerdsscottlaura832]

I'm currently in a Part 147 program in Irving Texas. You all might like to know that the school has made a partnership with the local school district and they are recruiting high school seniors. I see them taking tours every month.

[@TakingOff]

That’s awesome

[@wheelswingsnstrings523]

I am a Career utility co employee, within 5 years to retirement. Own, fly and maintain a 54 year old airplane. I work with an A&P /IA on the weekends. Hoping to supplement my retirement as an A&P working on GA airplanes and probably build one. Hoping to go get into an accelerated program when the time comes and get certified. It seems like the hourly requirement to get recommended for testing is insurmountable. Probably just a dream but it’s fun and educational nevertheless. I would go to a tech program and but they closed the aviation Maint school 35 miles away a few years ago. Anyone in this area would have to travel or relocate for this trade career, yet the school is still there, along with a need for mechanics. People have been told since childhood how expensive anything in aviation is. Mostly from folks who don’t really know much about it. That alone turns kids and adults off to anything to do with airplanes. And as far as bucking rivets at six years old..............

[@AV8R_1]

Dang. I'm moving my plane to Louisville!

[@nozsurfer4278]

Would love to be an A&P, however, benefits packages for GA aviation are horrible. I'm an apprentice in the IBEW L.U. 595 to become an Inside Wireman and the pay and benefits are fantastic. With three kids, I have to put my calling aside to have a better life for my family.

[@thatairplaneguy]

I quit A&P work because I didn’t have enough consistent work. I can make just as much in my current career with good benefits.

[@i.r.wayright1457]

Every time the price of Avgas goes above $X.XX per gallon the pilots still go to the airport, but they sit in the lounge and drink coffee.

[@MotoCampAdventure]

What career did you switch to? Also were you working in GA or with the airlines? Only asking because I'm heavily considering school for A&P at the moment.

[@cmritchie04]

AT UPS co worker#1 received his A&P from his Vo-Tech school when he was in high school, his A&P is active... another UPS co worker#2 received his A&P and did the 30 months because his step Dad was a was an A&P his status is inactive as he is a general Labor worker for the company i.e. working in the ramp department.

[@markzimmermann3441]

Dang good looking 210 taxiing in!

[@TakingOff]

Yes it is! Also a few of those engine shots, and the JPI 930.

[@rolandoortega6649]

A&P mechanics are excepted to work on very expensive aircraft with very expensive parts buy thousands of dollars in tools with very high legal liability for minimal pay .

[@DanzRdy]

Agreed. My current Biz Av employer charges customer $160/hr flat rate not including OT. The techs only see 20-25% of that and they call that "burden" in accounting terms. I'm at the upper end of that percentage because I've been there 18 years but they told us to take our tools home a couple years ago and we're using team toolboxes so that expense for techs is no longer there. Commercial is still better pay but airlines have tanked obviously. Looks like freight is still the highest paid but you'd have to live in a large metro city which imo is undesirable these days. I'm fortunate enough to have found a good company in a relatively small town.

[@cbshomebizplane]

Christy this is a great video I have my general and airframe never finished my powerplant but I served 9 years Army aviation Chinooks mostly some bell rangers Cobra's then as soon as I was discharged I was hired by Alaska Airlines in Seattle then Columbia helicopters working on Chinooks civilian models are Boeing 234s, at Alaska Airlines it was 727s, 737 and then they got the MD 80s I hated them with a pation lol then I worked for Everts air cargo in Alaska worked on C46s and DC6s so my experience is all the way around turbines, jets and piston but I grew up working on vehicles doing autobody to rebuilding engines in my moms dining room at age of 12 lol she wasn't happy with me. But all three A&Ps are right you have to have a pation for it enjoy what you are doing. God bless and see you on the next one.

[@charlesmobley7782]

Nice old school ! I've done quite a bit of work on c-47s.

[@michaeljohn8905]

I’m studying for my tickets. Love Your show !

[@TakingOff]

Thanks Michael!

[@GarryFishermusic]

Thank you very good conversation and interesting answers . BTW Aviation has never been inexpensive I started flying in the early 70 ‘s .

[@MetroSA-227]

Many A&P’s do not realize before entering the field of aviation that a lot of the work is nights, weekends, holidays in sometimes dark, loud and dirty conditions.

[@JetTinkerer]

We're sitting here at the airlines working weekends, holidays, night shift, missing out on time with family and friends for the majority of our lives. All while watching our friends who went to college get day shift and normal working hours with holidays and weekends off while making almost double our salary. You tell me where they went 🤷‍♂️

[@tonygovender3805]

A&P is a good license to have. I have come across alot of A&Ps who pass the exam buy don't have proper airplane hand on experience. But all in all a good to have

[@golfnovember]

I’ll say this. Some companies are Part 145 repair stations which allow for people to work on aircraft without first obtaining an A&P. They are certificated aircraft repairmen, but not an A&P (if they leave the company, they are required to relinquish their repairman certificate since it they operate under the air agency certificate (145) of the company. One thing that I have seen, and this goes with pay and even job opportunities, is that some companies may hire a repairman who never touched a plane in their life over an A&P because otherwise they would have to pay more. I find it interesting that the gentleman on the right said they look for A&Ps, but also hire lawnmower mechanics (i.e. aircraft repairman) to work there. Why not hire the A&P? I made a comment in another video...a friend and I, both fresh A&Ps, applied to the same repair station at a local airport in Southern California. We both got passed up by a kid with no FAA certificates. So it’s kinda rich to hear the gentleman on the right say “we need more A&Ps because FedEx takes them all”, but hires a backyard lawnmower mechanic over a trained and certificated A&P (8:29). There’s more to it than just economics.

[@TakingOff]

You misread what Paul was saying. He did NOT say he takes a lawnmower repair guy over and A&P... he’s saying he can’t find A&Ps so has to look for lawnmower repair people.

[@jakepetersgolf9494]

Why does it seem they're ashamed to call it like it is. They don't make crap for the amount of work and expertise they are required to have. You're talking about 35k a year starting out and it doesn't go up much after that. Most places capping out at 60k after a decade. It's terrible.