The Price of Immortality: The Race to Live Forever (Peter Ward)

[@BrentNally]

These are topics I’ve been thinking about, researching and interviewing experts on for years. I agree with most of the perspectives discussed in this video but disagree on a few key points. Anyways, thanks for the video and I hope to see more content like this here soon!

[@Health.First.]

Hey Brent! Nice to see you here! Love your content! You’ve taught me so much!

[@jeffersonianideal]

"The key here, I think, is to not think of death as an end, but think of it more as a very effective way of cutting down on your expenses." -Woody Allen

[@SHurd-rc2go]

I'm heading towards 87, and have been ready to die for years. But I hang out with many peers, whose egos don't want to let go. Thank you both for this fascinating talk.

[@roobookaroo]

This sounds like a wise strategy. Can you be more explicit about this circle of "peers"? What it effectively consists of, where do you find them, and how it practically operates to provide this renewed booster of energy and optimism? It seems better and more efficient than any longevity pill. Especially the proportion of females to males? The general scientific literature leads to the conclusion that women are far more successful in surviving once passed the caps of 75, 80, 85, 90, with the % increasing at each level.

[@SHurd-rc2go]

@@roobookaroo 87, female. Lots of peers around in this retirement community. All my friends are over 85. Not all of us in great condition, but we dodged the latest bullet. 80% of Canadian Covid deaths were folks in nursing/care homes.

[@AndrewDoe777]

I feel like having a proximate age is a minor aspect of peerage. I think values, interests, and intelligence are far more important for finding a peer... and an ability to have meaningful and engaging conversations.

[@albionicamerican8806]

The cryonicists' goal is not weird in itself. It only sounds weird because of the timing. In a technologically competent civilization a few centuries from now, people will call the ability to live indefinitely in good physical and cognitive shape something like "good health," instead of the current nerd term "transhumanism," because they will accept that as a normal condition of life.

[@roobookaroo]

This "normal condition" was already attained by the Ancient Greeks. It was limited to their gods and goddesses, and for most of them it included eternal youth.

[@albionicamerican8806]

As for Terror Management Theory, when you do something which can actually keep you from dying, you don't call that "terror management," but something else, like "effective health care." Terror management is what we should call the things we do in response to death *_which don't work,_* like, oh, praying to Jesus. In other words, rationally we should manage our risk, not our terror.

[@justgivemethetruth]

Something nice to think about while the inevitable works its destruction on us. Why do people watch stupid TV shows or read fiction? The religions we have weight tradition against narrative ... and they will always be insufficient, but I really do not get the rabid hate some people have for religion. You can hate what some followers try to make of it, but that is really not religion - just hoaxsterism.

[@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104]

I suspect if we lived indefinitely life wouldn't become more or less meaningful during life. Dying won't make life more meaningful. Living a long time may make the distant past less meaningful. Either way some people would complain and other people would be happy. Some people would achieve a lot and others wouldn't. Personally I would prefer not to be forced to age and die.

[@fullmatthew]

Michael, "Ship in a Bottle" is one of my favorite Star Trek episodes as well!

[@Myshcan]

"Genetically our bodies are completely coded to die." (20:36). I had assumed that was the case, but reevaluated when I was informed that in our evolution individuals did not die of old age. They died of other causes long before they would have reached a point where any genetic code to die would have become applicable. So, now I am wondering if there is evidence for the proposition that our bodies are coded to die.

[@duyduhh3798]

False. If you made it past 9 years old, many people in history lived comparably old ages we do.

[@justgivemethetruth]

@@duyduhh3798 true ... funny how people have such resistance to that idea ... or fact.

[@justgivemethetruth]

I just want to die when I'm darn good and ready to. That's all. Is that too much to ask? How could one human brain begin to hold the memories of 200 years? I don't think it's possible without some kind of technological augmentation.

[@albionicamerican8806]

"Some kind of technological augmentation" is already common now. Look at the people who have had functional hearing restored with cochlear implants.

[@justgivemethetruth]

@@albionicamerican8806 A lot more than that. Ever read "The Brain That Changes Itself"? But as far as I know there is nothing that extends memory or amplified intellectual power. Not sure that is possible.

[@trumpisaconfirmedcuck5840]

The human brain clearly as a limit, but it's got to be more than 200 years. I think we forget things (I remember some of my childhood but I'm sure when I was 12 I remembered being 11 a hell of a lot more than I do now) for other reasons than storage limits. That said, imagine you're 85 years old and totally healthy. Healthier than any 85 year old ever was 30 years ago. Your body has been restored to more like 45 or 50. Or maybe even 25 or 30. Why wouldn't you want to live another day, another week, another month, another year? Sure in the abstract we think about "I don't want to live to 104" but if you're healthy you want to live a short time span more (another year as opposed to another 60 or 70). Then at 86 you'll want to live to 87. I see no reason for this to not continue in perpetuity.

[@AndrewDoe777]

I would like to try living for longer...maybe not FOREVER... but a lot longer... but I want to be healthy, and not have to worry about making money or other threats to my freedom (such as not having to worry about tyrannical governments or nasty societal trends... like a religious inquisition.... or being enslaved by a superior alien race, etc.) or.. I think it would rock. There's lots of stuff I would do. Lots of ways I would try to improve my character.

[@thermalrain_yt9725]

Wow you guys really sound like a couple of old geezers on a porch complaining rock and roll is gonna rot our brains. Open your minds just a little bit. Most of the negative things you said about living forever exist in our lives as it is. The older you get the more society changes you lose a lot of memories and people. You gain those back though you act as if you're there alone in a vacuum growing old in 1000 years. The guy said religious afterlife breaks down when you think deeper about it but thata entirely incorrect. Maybe you're mind cant think of how great it would be but I can and other can as well. That's the best part about religion and why so many people stick to their guns about it. I'm an athiest but in their minds they have their friends and family there with mansions and theres never any negative feeling or thought. You wont get bored or lonely or tired. The main things I heard against it were I dont see how its gonna work so it cant.

[@homewall744]

Nobody ever gets bored of their families? A long life is 100 years, yet eternity is infinitely longer, you have no grasp of it or what your new state would be, but have hope it will just be dandy? Have you seen Nature? Never dying is a fool's errand that would destroy nature and likely would be the demise of human life on Earth because we'd get the same old ideas forever rather than enjoying new ones with presumably slightly more fit genetics with each generation.

[@albionicamerican8806]

The traditional Christian belief about going to heaven makes no sense any way. What if you go to heaven, then you rebel against god? I've never come across an apologetic argument which addresses this obvious problem with the "plan of salvation." Also the belief in the immortal soul, depending on how you define "immortal," can conflict with the belief in god's omnipotence. Does god have the power to destroy souls? If so, then souls are not "immortal" in the sense of being indestructible.

[@justgivemethetruth]

That's a reasonable point, but I have to admit in my own experience and opinion, the world I was born into in the last century didn't have some of the cool stuff we had today, but I think it was better. I think in 50 years this planet is going to be a tragedy, so that people like maybe you and I wake up in the world with no nature, and rich jerks controlling everyone's lives, snooping on everything we do for their own purposes, and killing off people that they have no use for. Even if you could continue in a world like that ... would you want to?

[@thermalrain_yt9725]

@@justgivemethetruth that's kinda my point though. That's just your opinion. It's pretty much universal that people always prefer the time when they were younger. You hear it all the time we'll when I grew up I didn't have this or that and I'm fine. Yeah but people born now will say the same thing when they're older. I feel myself do that more and more the older I get. I have to remind myself all the time to not think like that. I'm 37 and I grew up with no tech I didn't have a cell until I was 23 and I'd much rather be growing up now . The world is better in every way. The only difference now is that every negative thing is thrown at us online. It's always been like that though just not as extreme. All anyone had was a few channels and the news they got was controlled by the owners of the newspaper and the TV stations. 50 Years ago if you weren't a white male you got the short end of the stick. Yeah maybe it was better for those guys but for the most part today's world is much more open and free than ever before. There's this false narrative going around that everyone hates each other. Idk about your experience in the real world but 99% of people are genuinely loving and willing to help each other. It's only if you stay online when you get this sense of hate. Time will tell which one of us is correct and I'm very optimistic

[@justgivemethetruth]

@@thermalrain_yt9725 > It's only if you stay online when you get this sense of hate. That's sure true, but more and more people have more and more of their lives online. > It's pretty much universal that people always prefer the time when they were younger. That is a broad generalization which I did not intend to make or support. There are measurable broad trends in science that tell us that people's lives are getting worse, especially in the present. It's hard to measure because every society is in its own bubble, and most are not even around anymore, and then there is the improvement effect of science and technology. But, our food is not as nutritious these days. The nutrients in the foods we eat have declined. We are depending on complex systems for our food and energy. What one economist has called fragility. Our systems are brittle. Our social systems bend to the corporate and the elites rather than regular people, and average people are marginalized purposefully. They say 50 years ago when polled about how many close friends people had they would say 3. Today they say 1 or even 0. There is far less nature in people's lives, and where we should have more leisure, we have less, and do not have the money to engage in it. What you may be engaging in is an elaborate ruse to fool yourself because to actually face the reality is soul crushing. Today there is more media consolidation and censoring than there was 50 years ago. I remember as a kid and young adult being able to turn on the radio and hear all kinds of interesting news, programming, call in shows, and not the right-wing talk radio that permeates the airwaves today. I even think it was better for marginalized groups, because the effort to fix things was far more honest and sincere. The backlash was triggered by the "Powell Memorandum" Look at NPR's Fresh Air from years ago when they had the retrospective on the death of Sargent Shriver who want some of the social programs that have since been quashed. They were quashed because they worked too well and upset the political system, and ever since then the political system has been working marginalize most people - including white people. I don't think you are looking at this very deeply because the result would be too awful. It is. So most people 's solution is to get what they can get today, and hope the future takes care of itself. That is a total failure or society and government.

[@LeonKukkuk]

In this country in which no one dies not everything as sordid as we have just described, nor, in this society torn between the hope of living forever and the fear of never dying, did the voracious maphia succeed in getting its talons into every section by corrupting souls, subjugating bodies, and besmirching the little that remained of the fine principles of old . . . [As Intermitências da Morte, José Saramago]

[@AndrewDoe777]

Sounds to me like that quote is describing the world we live in now.

[@richardnunziata3221]

I listen to the first 15 min and found all there arguments poor and ill informed as if they had already reach the conclusion and where simple making statements to support it.

[@steenrasmussen5280]

Forever is a looooooong time! As much as I enjoy my own company, being trapped in one consciousness for all eternity sounds like hell!

[@jarsnofski]

Exactly, which is why heaven, hell, Valhalla, or whatever you believe in will be like hell no matter what, because it's an eternity, and an eternity is hell. An eternity of anything is hell.

[@albionicamerican8806]

@@jarsnofski And you know this how? It's hilarious to me that skeptics and humanists claim that they base their world views on "evidence," yet they are making authoritative-sounding pronouncements about things they have no experience with and know nothing about.

[@aaronaragon7838]

@Albino What the hell do you know about eternity? Still relying on 3000 years old Bronze Age texts? MagA

[@dommidavros2211]

That's why you'd need a reset button!

[@justgivemethetruth]

Well, take it or leave it whenever it might become possible.

[@TracyPicabia]

If you've a mind to dig some more into the psychology of the immortalists, and those of us who just don't fancy dying, and are willing to die laughing at the same time I can highly recommend The Motion of the Body Through Space: A Novel. by Lionel Shriver

[@honeyspiderii]

First they ignore us, then they laugh at us, then they fight us, then we win. It is good to see our opposition moving into phase 3. The singularity is right on schedule.

[@AndrewDoe777]

Who is "us"? You will be dead by the time Singularity happens (if it happens). Your comment makes me think of me of racism and nationalism - beliefs where people take credit (or are blamed) for things they are far removed from.

[@richardthomas9856]

In Neal Stephenson's recent book Fall (Or Dodge in Hell), people's minds are uploaded when they die but create their own world in the computer (or the cloud instantiated on satellites).

[@AndrewDoe777]

Kind of like trans people now... you create your own world. Wanna be a girl? A boy? A not either? There's a Stephen Spielberg movie too, called "Ready Player One" but it doesn't give much insight into what it would look like to go further down the "create our own world in computers" path... it just turns into a hero-journey action movie... Anyone know of any good speculations on what that world might look like and how it might change the experience of human life?

[@DeconvertedMan]

Eat healthy and exercise eh? well... here is to science finding a different way to let me live forever :D

[@jimwalshonline9346]

As Isaac Asimov said, who the hell wants to live forever; after a hundred thousand years or so, you'd be climbing the walls...

[@sidstovell2177]

Thanks for the reminder of my fave writer, back to the '50's, when I was obsessed with science fiction.

[@albionicamerican8806]

Do you always accept pronouncements from people about things they have no experience with and know nothing about?

[@wraithofsolidarity]

What's the difference between you and quantum fluctuations that are exactly like you? Is that a different person?

[@justgivemethetruth]

The quantum principle that no to particle can occupy the same state and space says it is a different person - and entropy say it will diverge more over time.

[@andrewchoi5808]

Reverse human aging process Achieve immortality once again

[@lufeacbo8]

👏 Peter a rational book about biohackers and all of their madness would be great.

[@DeconvertedMan]

If I could live for as long as I wanted, with great heath, and mental well-being - that would be good. However if I had to get sick now and again or have my mental issues stay the same - then eh, I don't know if I would want to just keep on going, I'd rather have the choice though, being young would be nice. Living for thousands of years - man, I mean, you need to make room for new humans so - you going to be on a spaceship going to some other planet? That could be cool.

[@englandcalling9721]

Setting aside the practicalities, immortality hints at a sense of self-importance, that we are owed, almost, the right to 'forever' influence the world we live in. We're fireworks, not LED lights.

[@albionicamerican8806]

Again, consider the timing. In a technologically competent society a few centuries from now where it is both feasible and socially accepted to live indefinitely, in good physical and cognitive shape, people will call that situation something like "good health," and not as evidence of defective moral character.

[@robertdeffenbaugh9004]

The price of Immortality is an eternity of depression. Most Immortals committed suicide and I’m close to my breaking point. I want to die like everyone else. I was born in 88,016 BC.

[@justgivemethetruth]

It seems like the only true ways of extending life would be to be able to fix and regenerate the body, or to augment the body with technology but leaving the biological core of the person intact - like a cyborg. But our being is in our brains, so you either fix it, or add to it, but if you copy it - that is another thing, not you.

[@Gothlore]

They miss the point of living forever. Our legends and our vampire movies have prepared us for what's needed. Large and totally huge amounts of pomposity.

[@jameyforbes]

Bram stoker wrote a book about this as well I think he called it Dracula

[@dantalbot1201]

Yes bro I just watched the movie an Interview with a Vampire and Immortality will come with a price and also in the Highlander movie it will not be fun to be immortal while we see all the people we love die. Problem is that humans do not have enough brains to think about consequences !

[@albionicamerican8806]

Our fantasy lives show us what we really want, so why are vampire stories, which portray vampires sympathetically, so popular?

[@dommidavros2211]

Really disappointing about what he said about curing dementia. I remember hearing about a "breakthrough" but Mr Monotone put a massive dampener on that one! I just want scientific proof that my consciousness will at least go on forever!! What I NEVER want is an eternity of nothingness!! How tf do I make sure I have a cast iron guarantee that my consciousness will go on forever??

[@justgivemethetruth]

Nothingness is something ... death is not even nothingness.

[@user-bf6gi4kt4w]

Ours is one of the last generations where our elites will have to be mortal

[@dantalbot1201]

Nice chat Mike, thanks !

[@jeffersonianideal]

Genetics loads the gun. Lifestyle pulls the trigger.

[@naturalisted1714]

"Unconsciousness is a proverbial time machine" - Theodore Bolha

[@lukaswolczyk3236]

Could you expand... Not much meaning in that proposition.

[@justgivemethetruth]

How could you relate to the people of the future if you woke up? Why would they want your around? I mean already - i was born in the last century and starting to feel like a fossil, but the young people of today are so shallow and brutish, dishonest with no integrity, selfish, disrespectful. of course, not all of them, but they reflect our culture and American culture is really violent and competitive. So how would a person from the past begin to compete or cooperate with people in the future?

[@trumpisaconfirmedcuck5840]

First people wanted you around when you were born. Unless you were an accident, so you were created once already. Second you're acting like society would find some frozen dude or dudette in cryonics and as a collective society would vote whether to revive the person or not. As long as it's not made illegal, history buffs and cryonics enthusiasts would revive the frozen people.

[@javadhashtroudian5740]

I'm 75 and want to live for another 50 years. I may die today and that's OK by me. I lost my fear of death after my first acid trip in 67. My health span is important not life-span. I am mostly a vegetarian and do intermittent fasting. I love it and have huge amount of fun. My weight is less than it was 50 years ago and I'm much wiser and happier than the idiot I was fifty years ago.

[@justgivemethetruth]

yeah ... that is a real puzzler ... why do we die just as we are starting to understand things and getting good at living?

[@philippemartin6081]

Hello. Please let talk about éternel life. I promise all of you maximum 15 years from now every one of you will have the choise to live on earth a good 50 000 years. After that you will have to go home what you Guy's call paradis. This is my présent to All of you to be with all of you on earth. Also never Forget all what we achive in juste 20 years and i was not on earth now imagine but imagine beyond please because now we will juste go beyond.😎

[@homewall744]

The only action a God has ever confirmed to have been done was at the hands of a believer.

[@homewall744]

The notion your brain's thoughts are independent of the body it's attached to seems incorrect. Think how much of the life of all sickly people are focused on their poor health and getting by or trying to improve.

[@justgivemethetruth]

the other thing is what happens when all these old people own and control everything - because that is what will happen. What connection, what empathy will they have to a small baby or young people who to them are totally ignorant and useless.

[@justgivemethetruth]

Do they have cars and parking in heaven?

[@richardthomas9856]

Anent self experimentation, there have been parasitologists who tried out parasites on themselves.

[@staninjapan07]

A fascinating conversation, gentlemen. Thank you. If I may, and pointing out only this one thing will cause some knees to jerk, but there's nothing to be done about that. This business of of over-using and misusing the phrase "conspiracy theory" is rather poor work. If someone asserts / assumes /postulates (etc) that we may be in a computer simulation , there is nothing whatsoever in that which can reasonably be called conspiracy theory. It's a science fiction story if indeed it is anything at all. It's a very poor use of English by obviously well-educated men. It's akin to claiming that "the Queen of England is a half-space-alien-lizard who rules the world" is a conspiracy theory. You muddy the waters, as it were, by being so careless. None-the-less, thank you for an otherwise fascinating real-world conversation.

[@bobbyjunelive]

😂 Arguing away from being in control of staying (not being forced off of the planet and disappeared) //reminds me of// when people today concern themselves with loosing their jobs since the robots are doing all the work. Who tha hell wants to be obligated to work, mostly at a place one does not love? Choosing to work is a different story. I guess the same person who thinks that when they die, that this is a good thing while having no idea that any world of people who were forced to die would logically think this way so that they deal with death as if it’s good. If they are forced to die, tricking yourself into good thoughts about such a horrible situation is, I guess you can say is impressive by us. eliminating death. The world should enslave itself so that every single person works on

[@duinay3]

Of course the rich wants to live forever

[@micksc1]

We i won’t be buying a book from this depressingly negative guy.

[@codrinvechiu2832]

this guy's voice is so depressing

[@homewall744]

Life is death. Without death, there's no life, just existence.

[@trumpisaconfirmedcuck5840]

Going to have to disagree with the concept of humans creating great art or poetry or other endeavors (science? math? anything academic or adding to culture) because of mortality and they'd never do it if they were immortal. For the vast majority of human history... or perhaps even ALL of human history, including today, humans have believed in some form of afterlife. Whether it's the Christian/Jewish/Muslim heaven and hell, reincarnation, native American and African religions, belief in ghosts, etc. Most people think they're immortal or at least their soul or "essence" is. It hasn't stopped human endeavors at all. Now if biological immortality is achieved (and it will be at some point... just a question of whether it will be 20, 200, or 2000 years from now) I can possibly see some of that stuff being slowed down, but stopped entirely? Ridiculous. Not to mention it will give people time to see other things: multi generational projects in the past? You'll get to see them start to finish. Space travel? Sure. Even if FTL is never achieved and we only go to Alpha Centauri at 20% the speed of light, that's 20 years. Now wasting 20 years of your life traveling to another star would suck, given it's 1/4 to 1/5 of your entire life. If you live functionally forever, who cares?

[@trumpisaconfirmedcuck5840]

Overpopulation is NOT a concern because of longevity. High birth rates are what drives overpopulation. Have less kids - or have them at 350 instead of 35 and the population will grow slower.

[@justgivemethetruth]

What does someone so old and ancient want with kids?

[@trumpisaconfirmedcuck5840]

@@justgivemethetruth If aging is reversed, 350 and 35 will be the same basically.