The Problem(s) With Final Destination

[@MrMockRock]

This video is sponsored by VITURE and their new Pro XR Glasses. They may honestly be the coolest sponsor I've ever worked with (they didn't tell me to say that btw) and I'm very happy to have them back! I loved their first model but comparing them side by side is like night and day. The VITURE Pro is brighter, clearer, and longer-lasting, and if you're interested, you can use my links below (also please be sure to use code MOCKROCK for a 10% discount on any items you bundle with the VITURE Pro). *VITURE Store:* pro.viture.com/MockRock *VITURE Amazon:* viture.us/MockRock Also a big thanks to Wisely for coming on! You can check his channel out here, he makes a lot of great platform fighter content with a focus on the Rivals series and that _other_ Smash game: www.youtube.com/@atWisely Finally, here's the full list of (non-Smash) platform fighters featured in this video if you thought any looked interesting: -Brawlhalla -Combo Devils -Fraymakers -Multiversus -Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2 -Rivals of Aether -Rivals 2 -Rushdown Revolt -Sentinels Inc. -Slap City *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Second channel:* kzbin.info *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/

[@Just.Kidding]

8 hours longer than the normal battery life? That's like.... 8 and a half hours!

[@amyrose4ever157]

$1000 btw

[@nathanieljones8043]

Eye damage

[@jstar3382]

So how does the screen actually look? Because we see nothing

[@NinjaXFiles]

@@nathanieljones8043 I'm scared

[@kirbydedede2494]

11:35 - Seeing Metroid Dread used as an analogy for the terrifying presence of Kazuya is genuinely funny.

[@spaceonisorceress4406]

aw shit I didn't pick up on that before XD

[@blue-eyesdepresseddragon3753]

Unironically, the fact that there is no room for actual stage play is ridiculous in ultimate. Like...yes, the gentle slopes CAN change a match up. That's what having a character that's better on certain stages are for. That's what counter picking your opponent to a stage their character is worse on is for. Even understanding some of the bigger more abusable stages need to be gone, I will forever mald over the pedantic bullshit of banning no hazards Yoshi Story, it's just asinine.

[@keiyakins]

Yeah some of the big stages are clearly meant for party play, even my casual self realizes that. Even something like Temple, for instance, is a ton of fun when there's four or more people running around on it, but in a 1v1, even disregarding competitive stuff like cave of life issues, it's just too big.

[@Irish_Enderman]

I completely agree, there are so few "competitively viable" stages in ultimate compared to the actual number its completely ridiculous

[@VerbDoesStuff]

I just hate the TO’s culture. They’re the same ones who didn’t ban lylat in Smash 4. Fuck em.

[@EzKay_PX]

Every time i hear about the slopes thing I think of tekken, there there is no stage bans, yet stages can have walls which just makes some charactes straight up better, but there is also infinite non wall stages, stages with brakable walls, explosive ones, brakable FLOORS and all of them are allowed.

[@saratoga6663]

honestly I thought the reason yoshi's story was banned was because 1, it's concepts exist in two different stages at the same time (battlefield and lylat) and 2, killing off the top is so stupid on that stage. If randall stayed around with hazards off I would definitely see why it should be in the ruleset, adding something unique that can't be replicated by two different stages with less cheese

[@TheRoboKitty]

The year is 21XY. Tourney players have gone even further beyond, even capable of RNG manips and Stale Reference manips in real time. The true test of skill is Pichu vs Bowser with items on High in Brinstar Depths. Port priority is, of course, decided by a classic game of Fox dittos on Final Destination

[@masterofdoots5965]

But what decides the port priority for the Fox ditto?

[@laz272727]

@@masterofdoots5965 RPS was found to be unbalanced, so now it's decided by a quick round on Lethal League.

[@aab1254]

@@masterofdoots5965 Rock paper scissors

[@njijnji]

@@aab1254 But what decides the positions of the players for rock paper scissors?

[@sashawaybright3097]

@@njijnji god

[@atWisely]

Thanks for having me on! It was super fun to talk about what it means to take away the platforms in a platform fighter :)

[@MrMockRock]

Appreciate you coming on! People, check this man out, he's got some of my favourite videos about the Rivals series and PM out there

[@zenferns]

Yoo it's you

[@asuuki2048]

I just simply can’t find platforms very enjoyable. I’ve labbed with them for at least a dozen hours and played on them for even longer, and I just feel so incredibly smothered by them. They feel sticky and incredibly limited. Most of my characters love to abuse platforms, including my main Greninja. But for everything I can abuse on them, there is something my opponent can. I just feel extremely stressed anytime I see a battle begin with a platform. Even when I do win and use drag down into Up Smash on them, I just feel… so stressed the entire match. I think it’s just not for me, I simply want to strictly fight my opponent, so I opt to fight on Omega Form stages.

[@harrylane4]

@@asuuki2048wait so your reason for not liking platforms is “my opponent can also use platforms and has a better chance?”

[@asuuki2048]

I actually said that it’s primarily because they feel sticky and smothering and that I also just prefer the straightforward fighting.

[@stoneraptor6219]

Going straight to Temple and being appalled that it’s not legal when you’re first learning about competitive rule sets for smash as a casual is such a vibe 😭😭😭

[@TuesdayTastic]

I love that you included Coney's video talking about how Smash is stale now. I do agree that our choice of stages dramatically changes the way we approach the game. I like running tournaments with alternate rulesets for this exact reason since I love seeing how strategies have to adapt given new circumstances. This video is probably going to be my inspiration to run a hazards on tournament sometime soon. We have Fountain of Dreams in HD it's a crime we aren't playing on it.

[@castform7]

I don't even watch tournaments like that but the fact we have a peak stage in FoD and it doesn't get touched bothers me to no end.

[@Ooid_Monster]

I love your content!!! Funny seeing you here hehe

[@CaTastrophy427]

A thing I do with friends sometimes is let random number generators pick like six sets of four characters, and ten sets of three stages, excluding the basic triplats/FD/etc. Overlap happens with both character sets and stage sets. Each stage set and character set has a set of rules attached - could be anywhere from time (3~6 minutes) to stocks (2~5) or even stamina (50~300), or it could be custom smash with like permanent curry, bunny hood, back shield, or flower, giant or mini, etc. Also things like smash meter, certain items on, stage hazards on or off, and even launch rate can be modified. With each match, players pick a set of characters and a set of stages, then those are merged into the only options. From there, each player bans two characters, two stages, and one ruleset, and RNG decides who gets what character from the unbanned four, which of the two unbanned stages is picked, and which of the two unbanned rulesets will be used. If the ruleset has stage morph, both remaining stages are in there.

[@thomas1pharma]

hi tuesday

[@SaveFrog]

woah, tuesday jumpscare

[@togglebott7748]

>platform fighter >play on the one stage without platforms

[@redfoxdog1]

nice PFP

[@Dionysus626]

This is what my friends insist on doing.

[@Kyee124]

I mean might as well play on king of fighters stadium considering there's no platform at all.... oh wait they banned that map

[@infectiousfungi3188]

battlefield is a better stage imo

[@daryncollins7640]

@@Kyee124 thats because of the breakable wall isnt really fit for tournament

[@OmegaTyrant]

I remember adamantly arguing for legalizing Pokemon Stadium 2 with its transformations back in Brawl... yet nowadays it would be an even greater debate to just not ban a Lylat Cruise that doesn't tilt and has far more forgiving ledges. I always been of the mindset that stages are an integral part of Smash and that we should be including as many distinct, competitively viable stages as possible, rather than the prevalent mindset of trying to minimize that aspect as much as possible and exclude every stage that isn't absolutely sterile. A big part of my dissatisfaction with later Smash 4 as a competitor was how much the stage variety got truncated down to the bare minimum and I got absolutely sick of Animal Crossing music, I would intentionally strike/ban Smashville just to get a bit of respite from it (and to intentionally annoy opponents who became complacent to only playing Smashville), while I barely ever watched competitive Smash 4 in part due to that. When Ultimate had so many stages and got the stage hazard toggle added, as well as seeing several stage issues addressed (like Lylat's aforementioned ledges and Halberd being given a much higher top blastzone), I initially was optimistic about the competitive stagelist possibilities being far greater than we ever had. Alas, that got quickly dashed by the majority of players being allergic to the slightest stage deviation. I haven't entered a tournament in years, and while my competitive hiatus had nothing to do with Ultimate nor any ruleset issues, the state of modern stagelists certainly isn't encouraging me to get back into it. For one final note, I'll never understand how people keep complaining about camping and defensive play in general in Ultimate, yet keep picking PS2 over and over, a substantially bigger stage than the rest of the legal stages. A smaller biplat alternative was even added to the game in Small Battlefield, yet people keep defaulting to PS2 and then whine when they get camped.

[@jetpackdog3427]

Being forced to play nothing but Omega-forme stages when i play with my siblings has given me a visceral hatred for FD

[@SwerveStarEx]

That's my perspective too tbh. Will I play by competitive rulesets? Yes, I will. But I don't want it to be the only ruleset I play with; I would honestly rather be playing more chaotic rulesets on more crazy stages, with items on, and more. I always ban Final Destination out of principle when I play. (I allow Omega Forms but I oppose them)

[@3DSCarnaje]

Exact same for me. I've got a group of friends and we'll play smash from time to time but I'm almost always the only one that picks a non fd, non omega stage. Like sure, I'll turn off items, even if I'd rather it just be a curated selection. Sure, I'll turn off smash ball (not as big a gripe for me in ultimate as it would've been in previous games since ultimate ruined final smashes) but out of all the items it's the one I'd want the most. But after all that, going fd or omega only and just what's the point? I want to play the game for fun, and it's a no stakes game with friends, so why are we using the most boring rules possible? (Outside when my stage gets picked. Temple and bridge-with-ridley ftw.)

[@Tycalra]

This video speaks so much to my soul. One of the (many) reasons I stopped competing at all was because I got so sick of only playing on the same 3 stages all the time. The worst part about FD to me is that while the larger competitive community doesn't use FD as much as is memed, the casuals who like to pretend they're competitive do. I have been to so many parties where one person refused to let anyone play on any stage without FD because, according to him, it's the only fair stage, but that unwillingness to play anything else removes the fun for everyone.

[@LazuliScarab]

This comment speaks to my soul almost more than the video

[@nickjmo1576]

Dude, the friend group I used to play smash with was like that as well and I fucking hated it. They didn't want to play on stages with platforms because they "dropped combos" and "gave some characters an advantage" it was stupid.

[@castform7]

I'm at the lower level of "way too good for anyone around me but washed against someone slightly more competent" and even I started to not like FD. At some point in early Ultimate I was just like "wow, platforms are way more useful than I give them credit for". I basically don't really touch FD anymore when I want to hop back in. As for when I play with my friends, they aren't really that picky the rare chance I get to play them.

[@vincentcircharo8259]

i was definitely that guy back when i still played smash. oops

[@kode-man23]

I love FD. It’s my comfort pick and if you don’t ban it I will 100% take you there every time. Unless you play Mac.

[@FedoraKirb]

One of the biggest (albeit slightly exaggerated) criticisms lobbied at Melee is how such a large percentage of its roster is barely viable at best and completely unviable at worst, leaving a large chunk of the game out. It’s crazy how that’s basically the same deal with Ultimate’s stage list. They made such a big deal about nearly every stage being back and it just doesn’t matter for the most dedicated part of the player base. I’ve come to appreciate MockRock’s videos more as a game designer, because they’re such thorough analyses that get me to look at this genre is new ways. And it shows he’s thought about this stuff as a designer himself. Also the editing in this video is crazy, stuff like 5:15 were super stylish.

[@jmurray1110]

Well first characters are entirely on the designers bowser didn’t need negative disjoints in his dash grab and game abd watch didn’t need a tissue for a shield Second the games not just about competitive the games partially a party game for casuals you don’t play Mario party for money (well unless your drinking) and the stages are a mix of good and bad for either audience Thirdly even if the competitive scene were to have more ideal stages they likely wouldn’t use them all anyway maybe cycle them because a tight stage list works better for the selection process small number of neutral states decided through striking them loser chooses from starter and counter picks after the winner strikes the ones that they don’t want Having a lot will take up time, have more strikes needed and if the new stages are similar could lead to 5 functionally identical stages for the match

[@CrimsoniteSP]

Smash is probably one of the only games where diversifying the stages brings out it's best. I really don't like that the community decides to ban stages that are completely fine just because one mishap happened on a tournament match. Lylat is still a very good stage. Slants are sick and it's platform layout is among the best. We're playing the silly Nintendo brawler, let it be silly. That's not to say I don't appreciate what competitive has done for the health of the game but even Rivals of Aether has more complex stages and it's been doing just fine, especially with it's sequel.

[@jmurray1110]

People hate lylat that’s not changing unova would fit your criteria as it messed up palus recovery

[@illford]

in fairness i think PM Lylat is the best because it has slanted platforms and a flat main stage

[@BromanderInChief]

I vehemently hate Lylat only because its ledges are Melee Battlefield’s but somehow even worse. The slants themselves never bothered me, same with both Yoshis stages that have been used

[@doolosss]

i still have trauma from smash 4 lylat

[@WhyYouWahYoo]

As someone who grew up with Smash as a causal game first, and subsequently discovered competitive smash through stuff like those old "craziest Pokemon Stadium Moments" videos, I can say the current stage situation in competitive Smash hurts my soul. I mean, some tournaments are even banning KALOS now?! Speaking from my own experience (and many people I know with similar stories) having a little bit of lunacy is a treat for viewers, and it helps bridge that gap from casual to competitive. That said, I play exclusively online and exclusively watch majors via Coney's re-streams, so DO NOT take my word as anything other an anecdotal lol. It just makes me a little sad personally is all

[@Ban-zx9se]

Kalos is ass lmao

[@ivrydice0954]

Respectfully I will never miss Kalos, but I see the point I think you got a good headspace.

[@illford]

@@Ban-zx9se It's layout is fine besides walls. You can camp on it but be real here that exists on any two plat really. Walls can be cheesy but they are also a creative element in gameplay that is never really explored or exploited. Even then most of the cheese historically possible is not longer possible or is hard as shit (ex. Samus and Lucario's recoveries) The blastzones line up pretty well with what's legal, the stage being the same size as FD and having slightly bigger blastzones but that's why it's a counterpick, it's there to give you an advantage if you want to live longer

[@KingAndy9Real]

​@@illford 1. Your counter pick point would be valid, but it makes the game take longer, so its worse for the viewer AND TO experience 2. Platforms off the stage means that you can camp in an advantageous position, tnc would have this but the plats move and the blastzone is close so it's more risky

[@seansquiers6506]

​@illford6921 I just hate Kalos. I can't articulate why nor would I care to, I just always have a bad time on it.

[@Delzethin]

I've had a similar idea with wanting Smash 6 to evolve the hazard toggle into full on alt modes of stages built to be more competitively friendly. Kongo Falls could remove the rock ledge and topmost platform like you said, Spring Stadium could take away the ceiling panels, Arena Ferox could stick to the statue layout only (with the statues unbreakable and unable to block projectiles), Prism Tower could start and stay on one of the middle layouts, etc. Could even give FD's variant a less intrusive background! Include them in the same toggle as Battlefield/Omega variants instead of being dependent on ruleset, and you have something that could legitimately help the stage select stagnation every Smash game so far has fallen into.

[@tjlnintendo]

Doing that for all stages seems like a hassle. And maybe its me being pessimistic, but I feel like even with all of these potential toggles, it still isn’t going to be enough as the competitive scene is extremely strict with anything that isn’t a flat stage or battle field

[@ElTaitronAnim]

I agree, that would be an excellent addition.

[@nicocchi]

I hate Lylat as much as the next traumatized Smash 4 player but Yoshi's Story getting banned for its gentle slopes is downright criminal

[@boogsss2]

Half of the specials in the game are whack on slopes

[@seansquiers6506]

Free Yoshi's. Stage is goofy and hilarious but not uncompetitive. It added so much to Ultimate competitive without detracting from it being competitive.

[@tefnutofhoney2832]

​@@boogsss2so? The other half are whack on perfectly level terrain.

[@marioisawesome8218]

wario ware being banned for "small blastzones" as if the blast zones aren't small for everyone and not just one character???

[@chrispo7610]

​@@marioisawesome8218 people like not dying at 0 off of random kill moves and i dont blame them

[@aviator2777]

I was pushing for a more interesting stage list in my ultimate scene for literal years, but unfortunately smash players are so allergic to the idea of stages doing anything remotely interesting that it never went anywhere. Its especially sad that the mentality infects the whole genre, for example, NASB 2 patched out the only stage with slants on it like a month after launch presumably because of that mentality, despite that fact that it was totally balanced and had some really interesting movement and combo implications that will now never be explored.

[@ThatWolfArrow]

Its also worth noting that other air focused fighting games like Marvel vs Capcom, Guilty Gear, or Melty Blood have air teching, making juggles way less powerful than they are in smash. So them having uniformly flat stages is way less of an issue.

[@remicou8420]

i would say air teching is not the reason that is the case, and that it’s rather the rarity or even absence of quick moves that send up and come out above the character to set any sort of juggle up. air teching is quite similar to airdodge in function too, and it isn’t keeping juggles from being strong in platform fighters.

[@xetsuma]

I'd actually say that the main difference with those sorts of games is that there are ONLY flat stages. Every stage is identical in layout, so if something is broken or bad on literally the only layout it just is broken or bad in general. Players of traditional 2D fighters will generally ban any stage that isn't exactly identical to the others (such as "Fetus of God" in Vampire Savior, which is much longer than average). There just hasn't been any sort of "stage game" historically and I think most people agree that those games don't need it. Also Guilty Gear Strive doesn't actually have Air Tech, but does have a very intense Gravity Scaling mechanic.

[@viewerguy10]

@@xetsuma what did you mean by “stage game”

[@xetsuma]

@@viewerguy10 I mean like picking stages being a meaningful part of the game

[@ThatWolfArrow]

​@@xetsuma3D fighting games like Tekken and Virtua Fighter are right there.

[@Driff97]

Even though I'm never bothered by this visual clarity background noise to begin with, my real reason why Brawl's Final Destination is by far my favourite is the music. It's my favourite bit in the series and the fact that the background syncs up with it gives it an onminous story to tell on it's own. There are other stages that does this, such as.....Paper Mario, but this is still peak.

[@DeadweightLKS]

The devs messed up by deeming the moving platform on Smashville a Hazard, yet they seemed to try and haphazardly rectify their mistakes by adding competitive stages post-launch like Northern Cave, Small Battlefield and Hollow Bastion, so that people can use those with hazards on instead of Kalos, PS2 and Smashville hazards off, and also get other hazards on stages. Instead, the competitive ruleset went hazards off and essentially doubled up on stages that were almost identical anyway.

[@Scringus]

and they STILL banned hollow bastion because of the floor lol

[@grunkleg.2934]

How fitting that Sakurai dropped his "Average = Mediocre" video today. Perfect balance just isn't fun. Then again, apparently he thought that Ganondorf was the best character in Brawl, so who knows? Also yeah, they do need to put visual clarity into the next Smash Bros game. New talent on the Smash dev team would be cool, some of their current design philosophies are oddly outdated

[@zekromfan1]

@@Krona-fb4dnSakurai’s opinion matters the most out of everyone’s, because he’s the developer. What he thinks is balanced and what he thinks isn’t, determines the game’s balance. For example, him saying he believed Ganondorf was the best character in Brawl, goes to show how little he viewed gliding as a major mechanic, and by proxy Meta Knight. It’s the same for any developer really, their understanding of what people like and dislike determines what they do, trying to appeal to a large demographic tends to change things quite considerably. And Smash is constantly changing with each new installment as a testament to this fact.

[@Dudex11a]

I could be wrong but I believe the Ganondorf opinion isn't real. I've never been able to find the source for that opinion myself.

[@sonicultimateyt1090]

It is written that only Sakurai knows the true power of the king of evil

[@uponeric36]

Honestly Sakurai is right on every point and I'm glad it makes competitive players upset; they deserve to be gatekept from casual smash.

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

It's "a single" reason... And it's not something he can be right about since it's just an opinion anyway.

[@waffleman8053]

Glad to see more discussion around stages. We've been talking about characters for years at this point, so any other topic is very refreshing.

[@ElecManEXE]

I've always felt like being able to utilize the terrain of a stage should be just as important as knowing your character matchups and combos. Including terrain that might be a bit more complex than "a flat stage and maybe a few flat platforms". Adaptation is part of competition, another level of mastery one can hone. But then I'm not nor will I ever be a competitive player. Just a casual who can put up a modest fight in any stage you throw me on.

[@mrziiz6893]

It’s quite literally a skill issue on their end

[@miimiiandco]

I think people are concerned about either a certain character or playstyle being too good on a stage (WarioWare or at it's most extreme, Palutena's Temple), or just jank happening like on Lylat.

[@misterausom]

The guys who ran SmashHood Tournaments had similar feelings toward the competitive scene. Ultimately their tournaments had their own rules and occasional gimmicks, but they were super entertaining to watch due to the variety of characters and stages. If you guys haven’t checked them out, I would definitely recommend them. They are the perfect middle ground between super competitive and casual competitive.

[@Chmmr]

i do think it's funny how often smash releases what i like to call 'almost competitive' stages in their DLC, between smash 4's umbra clock tower (some platforms go under the stage, one of the platforms has a solid ceiling) and ult's yggdrasil's altar (start has a walkoff like halberd), spring stadium (small techable ceilings at the top of the screen) and minecraft world (too large), for what seems like an effort to provide more competitively viable yet slightly spicy stages into the discussion, and they all get shot down, with the only ones actually getting added being the truly sterile ones like northern cave and hollow bastion (of which, northern cave got later banned in my region for being 'too similar to fd/town', and bastion actually being amazing and being a beloved staple in my region). i do wish there was more interest in these 'spicier' stages but it seems to me that at the end of the day players just dont want to learn the new things and would rather focus on the characters, which is valid

[@QTpitarianne]

17:11 Brawlhalla being the wierd one with how much we hate platforms. The devs made Halo (yes, that Halo), a 4-platform map legal for a ranked season (~2 months) and the community cried hard enough that it got taken off at the earliest opportunity. Our legal stagelist has 2 different no platform maps (3 are legal, but one is 1v1 only and is replaced by a different no platform map for 2s), and 2 with a single platform thats moves between the left and right sides of the stage before pausing. When you realise that landing and jumping in this game can be done in 5 frames, and that grounded moves can be used mid-air (think Steve block but a universal mechanic), it makes a bit more sense why platforms are not valued as much in Brawlhalla.

[@QTpitarianne]

Maps are banned by the loser in this game till there are 3 left, where the winner picks. You basically don't get to choose as a loser. Brief description of stage list: 2 no platform maps. Small blast zones or wider groundspace but small walls. 2 Single moving platform maps. These maps are basically identical. 2 Dual platforms. One which moves vertically and the other is static very high off the ground 2 Tri plats. One is wide and flat, the other is a bit more vertical.

[@KamiSanzo]

bralhala sucks

[@RenShinomiya121]

@@QTpitarianne I remember everyone either only wanted to be on Small Brawlhaven or Small Mammoth's during a time i still played around on custom lobbys. I just wanna play on Miami Dome because i love the map as a Diana/Scarlet main

[@KrispyKorpse]

YO THE WISLEY COLLAB IS REAL (awesome to see a recognizable face from the Rivals community popin up around one of my favorite general plat fighter channels)

[@atWisely]

[@BroudbrunMusicMerge]

Imagine a platform fighter that heavily used walls as part of its core gameplay. Like, every character could have some sort of wall move; and when hit against a wall, you could time a transition into your character's wall move(s).

[@SoftwareNeos]

Support Combo Devils. The stages are gonna be crazy in that game.

[@OddRick3113]

the game wont feel like glue and achilles is peak design

[@SchAlternate]

Reminds me that Kalos was banned because the lip on the ledge screwed with Palutena's recovery a bit... back when she was considered a solid candidate for best character in the game. Yeah, I love Ultimate, but its players are bitchmade when it comes to stage selection.

[@Tiquono]

You mean Unova

[@jmurray1110]

Screwing with necessary game mechanics is a good reason to ban while the palu example is niche I don’t want a president where melee battlefield gets added and in rotation randomly falling through the stage or your recovery just not working because of a stage makes it a bad stage

[@z-leigh6554]

We talk about the obnoxious visuals, but that's actually similar one of the things that's really hard for me when it comes to smash 4 and ultimate when trying to play casually. There's a lot of lights and effects with moves and getting hit, which are really pretty, but with a lot of people playing, especially with 8 player smash, make it really hard to tell what's going on, which I feel is toned back a little with earlier smash titles. It just makes it genuinely hard to play for me at times. But that's really just me. Still really pretty though.

[@z-leigh6554]

For instance, take later into the clip starting around 28:15, where there's a whole bunch of things happening and flashy lights, and it's hard to even tell who's where Edit: One of the real problems is just how far the death explosions stretch. They cover like half the screen.

[@thetouffe316]

The biggest issue of smash ultimate's stage ruleset is that it does not implement DSR, which has always baffled me as a melee player Not only it is mind numbing as a spectator to see PS2 in 80% of games, but it also removes stage mastery even further by allowing you to counterpick the same strongest unbanned stage every single time

[@echo.romeo.]

What's DSR?

[@TheOnlyGokuMain]

​@@echo.romeo. Dave's stupid rule, basically if you win on a stage then you can't go back to that stage for the rest of the set. Ultimate has modified DSR which is you can't go to the same stage you just won on until you win on a different stage.

[@Tinil0]

It feels completely arbitrary which aspects of stage design people are fine with saying "It's a skill to be able to handle this" and which people will say "It detracts from the ACTUAL skill of the competitors". Maybe it is just because I come from card games, but I see dealing with some amount of randomness as absolutely a skill.

[@roberthansen5727]

Making a single interaction regularly decide whole games objectively reduces skill expression - going to card games, it's why Yugioh is such an awful game. Just draw Dimension Shifter, and if the other guy draws Dimension Shifter just open your out.

[@deadersurvival4716]

@@roberthansen5727 And that's why "deck building" is a thing (meaning that there will never be only one interaction). And Yugioh isn't even close to awful for it. There's a LOT of ways to mitigate any single card without drawing it yourself, and in card games, especially Yu-gi-oh, that easily takes the form of negates and playing around your opponent's brain rather than their cards. Even the decision to put a card down to bluff with it can change the outcome. So yes, that's still skill expression. In fact, setting UP the potential for a single interaction to determine card games takes more skill expression than Brown Canidae on Flat Space Land without Objects.

[@thequagiestsire]

Agreed, manipulating your luck in your favor and adapting to poor luck is absolutely a skill. If your opponent pulls a Bom-omb as Daisy, you need to adapt accordingly. If your shots randomly miss in Splatoon, you adapt by repositioning or retreating. Luck is a critical part of skill expression.

[@noonehere6994]

in smash, a huge part of that is the question of "is it at least fun and hype to *spectate*?". If it is lame sportsmanship to utilize that element, it gets striked down.

[@deadersurvival4716]

@@noonehere6994 Not only is that not true; even if it were, by doing it the way the Smash community has done it, they've made it so that it's STILL no fun or hype to spectate by making it neutered and stale. There are PLENTY of ways to punish "lame sportsmanship" that don't involve banning 120-something stages. Some of which Smash ALREADY has rules in place for because they STILL haven't been able to avoid it with their bandaid solutions.

[@whammo5779]

This video rules! It's actually way more interesting to see stuff from just all platform fighters instead of just ultimate. Means I learn a lot more!

[@migmalucogachatm5618]

I love the fact that the Items off Fox only Final Destination meme was referenced in family guy

[@ballisticboo7808]

It was?

[@migmalucogachatm5618]

@@ballisticboo7808 summarizing what happened: a guy was training Peter I don't remember why, and he asked to peter "What would you do in a Melee fight?" And Peter says "I'd turn items off, choose fox and pick final destination" and after an awkward silence he says "Sorry I only know the word "Melee" from Super Smash Bros"

[@dabluepittoo-aqua4213]

You know, I've been thinking about how cowardly people get about hazards. Yeah, things like walkoffs are obviously no good, but slight slants? Disappearing and reappearing platforms? Transforming stages? Y'all are scared of this? Grow a backbone guys.

[@jasons1217]

At the end of the day, competitors are the ones that pick the stages. There have been plenty of tourney's with Castle Siege or Lylat legal, except nobody picks them because everyone hates playing on them

[@jamainegardner4193]

I dont see why walk-offs are so bad tho.

[@Keygentlemen]

@@jamainegardner4193 You just die so fast on them. For a while I didn't get it either until I played ultimate with a degree of frequency, but you can get obliterated way too easily when you can walk straight up to the blast zone. Having that gap of empty space makes it harder to chase people all the way to the zone and easier for the disadvantaged person because they have more options in the air.

[@3DSCarnaje]

​@@jamainegardner4193I think they're fun, but to simplify the reason as much as possible: Ridley on bridge. I will gladly admit I bully my friends there from time to time.

[@user-jw2it4qf2r]

@@jamainegardner4193 Makes it too easy to camp. Any character with the percent lead and a back throw with high base knockback (doesn't even need to be a back throw that kills on a normal stage, could be one that travels backwards a lot like Ken's) can just stand there menacingly. You're still forced to approach them just like on a normal stage but now blocking a projectile is a risky gamble that can get you grabbed and KOed at 30. Also, low-percent combos meant to drag you across the stage but mercifully end at the stage's edge now become inescapable 0-to-death combos.

[@MrMariosonicman]

I wish we lived in a timeline where part of the meta is pro players playing a dangerous game on balloon hunts edge constantly swapping which side their on thanks to the stages unique gimmic. Smash should find a solution to the wall problem so more stages with walls could be picked for battles. Id love to play on hyrule castle if I had some kind of wall attack if I ever got stuck on the right wall when hit with weak attacks.

[@masterofdoots5965]

Force EVERY stage to have some kind of jankiness. Don't even spare Battlefield, it needs to have weirdness too, otherwise everything will just be played there

[@AcidicSalt]

What's the wall problem?

[@MrMariosonicman]

@@AcidicSalt if you get hit by weak enough attacks at a wall in smash bros, you can essentially get stuck in an infinite combo as you can do nothing to get out since you are not moving anywhere. its especially bad if you happen to play with a stamina ruleset. so if smash added an attack you can do when you are stunned next to a wall to get out it would open up the list of stages people can play on since an infinite combo will be less likely.

[@AcidicSalt]

@@MrMariosonicman Thought you meant walls as in the sides of stages Can't think off the top of my head where the walls keep it from being competitively viable

[@MrMariosonicman]

@@AcidicSalt hyrule castle n64 with hazards off has a wall on the right side of the stage you could get comboed in. there would also be shadow moses where your only KO option is the top blast zone. due to the giant walls.

[@partystar91]

Man... we need a hazards on ruleset so bad. It's totally doable too! I think that the lack of stage variety is (part of) what has my motivation for competition so low right now. Almost every single game - not set, GAME - in my local scene is played on PS2, even though it's more unbalanced than Small Battlefield. I even started modding my copy of Smash just to look at something different or listen to different music from what I have grown accustomed to in every tournament set. Crazy how the Smash game with the most content ushered in an era of competitors using the smallest proportion of content from it. Great video!

[@heroichero8662]

I took my Health class final exam today...and wasn't expecting a MockRock video to be my reward afterwards. It's going to be a great treat.

[@Mr_Mimestamp]

8:53 the editing of these videos has always been phenomenal, but some of the graphics you’ve included here have been especially clean! It reminds me of Persona 5’s UI!

[@Aidswayz]

As someone who can understand the pain of editing something for hours, only for it to be a few second joke and not have people really appreciate it, I have to say that 11:35 is a fucking AMAZING edit. Great green screen, cute reference, and overall funny that made me laugh. Really appreciate the time you probably put into this few second joke and again was legitimately funny

[@kevingriffith6011]

I agree that other platform fighters have taken the absolute wrong idea from Smash's ban list. They shouldn't be looking at Hyrule Temple and Peach's Castle and saying "this doesn't work". They should be looking to add system mechanics to the game that MAKE them work. Like, say you're bounced into Peach's castle, well then the game can put your character into a wall-splat state the first time you connect, enabling combo extensions, but if you splat against a wall a second time in the same combo you deflect off and become invulnerable, something like that. Incorporate the weird edge cases into your system mechanics so that they are consistent, predictable and *fair* and I don't think anyone has any problem with weird stage geometry. It's like a bunch of cave men who heard Grod say "FIRE BAD" one time and haven't thought about using fire ever since, rather than figuring out that fire can be good if you don't put your hands in it.

[@RealityMasterRogue]

I genuinely despise the ultimate competitive stagelist.

[@masterofdoots5965]

The more competitive the game becomes, the more fun is sucked out of it

[@RealityMasterRogue]

@@masterofdoots5965 I think it is possible to play at the highest level and still have whimsy in your heart

[@masterofdoots5965]

@@RealityMasterRogue I understand, but seriously, the fact that people are discussing banning Kalos League because of the walls is ridiculous

[@SansioKongCountry]

I tried out some matches with friends using Min Min's stage, which would have been legal if not for the ceilings, and precisely the ceilings made for some hype and hilarious moments. Missing techs, landing techs away from death, ricocheting off it and still dying... I actually want to persuade my local TOs to consider including it.

[@hailthequeenFM]

Please Mr. I've never played this game, but let me tell everyone they are wrong.

[@primevalcelestialcarcass3998]

"You shouldn't change rulesets because pro players will have their livelihoods damaged" isn't a great argument in my opinion. The community and/or developers shouldn't have to cater to someone because they decided to make gaming their fulltime job and prize money their main source of income.

[@eemesstee1686]

It is not "shouldn't" as in "this is not right", but a suggestion: they want to appeal as much players as they can, and with too many livelihoods damaged they may fall out of favor

[@The_AGL_Group]

I'm still a goober that was dumbfounded when I heard people bitch about a company not allowing prize money for tournaments of their games The idea that prize money was a normal thing in fighting game tournaments Not a trophy, bragging rights, or fame It's all warped around a perversion of a cash reward No wonder the rules are so exceptionally narrow and boring, it's preoccupied with sterilizing everything to just make it a matter of people beating the fuck out of each other digitally for money, not for people to play a game

[@mrziiz6893]

If they can’t cope with the changes, then that’s quite literally a skill issue, just get better at the game.

[@tefnutofhoney2832]

As ive said many times. The competitive scene needs to adapt to the game, not the other way around.

[@yurei____4315]

​@@tefnutofhoney2832yeah everyone would totally love playing 2 minutes and 30 seconds timed battle on great cave with items on

[@Kazketch]

I found funny that smash was born with the idea of being wacky, with weird stages, funny items, and random stuff always happening, but the competitive scene is that sanitized, it doesn't feel like smash anymore, I would kill for more wacky tournaments with weird stages and items turned on, it would be really fun, and it would feel like a real smash tournament

[@jmurray1110]

It could be worse 64 has 1 stage and it wasn’t even consistent 1 Mexican tournament match lasted nearly an hour due to how abusable hyrule castle was

[@ElTaitronAnim]

Great analysis. I agree that it would be really nice if hazard-toggle wasn't so binary (and easier to toggle straight from the stage-select screen), and if alternate layouts were possible. This topic makes me think of how fights in other mediums are generally way more interesting when the environment is a major element - hazards, cover, loose items, what have you (look at many of Jackie Chan's fights, for instance) - than a straight flat-empty-room-punch-up (especially in, say, a tabletop RPG like Dungeons & Dragons). It would be great to see smart use of the environment play a bigger factor in something like Smash, but at the same time it's understandable that tournament play wants to strip away unpredictable elements in favor of a pure test of skill. Hopefully a middle ground can be found in the future.

[@Freebird1994]

Honestly, I think the issue has to do with the perception within parts of the fighting game community that smash, in all variants, is not a fighting game. And that stigma is what drives this competitive ideal of the only stage that should be played on is battlefield or PKS2 Now let me be clear, I am not in that camp. I think smash bros is a fighting game that requires just as much(if not more) skill expression as games like mortal kombat or tekken. Yes we don’t have to master hard inputs for tons of different moves(unless you play one of those bois) or nearly as many combo lines, but what we don’t have with that we make up for with a mastery of stage layout and a wider understanding of the various positions in a game(advantage, neutral, disadvantage) And this conception of “no items, fox only, final destination” really speaks to this kind of mindset of wanting to be accepted by that section of the fighting game community. FD is probably the closest thing we have to a stage from street fighter or guilty gear, so it’s this notion that it’s the “closest” we could get to being a fighting game. Now this isn’t the only thing that’s been an uphill battle smash bros has had to climb to gain legitimacy in the eyes of many. It certainly doesn’t help that the company that makes and maintains the game seems to be, at best, uncaring about its competitive scene or, at worst, openly hostile to it. But this concept of FD being the only competitively legitimate stage in the eyes of some has caused a sense of the need to prove that smash is a game of character skill(and only that) but just in a different form. I mean at this point the meme has basically never gone away and rather just changed form slightly. Now more currently the meme might as well be “no items, hazards off, Pokemon stadium 2, steve only.” And I agree the drive to win will require several stages to be banned no matter what. Obviously I’m not asking for Great Cave Offensive to be legal. But if you are a competitive player who can preform at a high level consistently, the slowly moving side platforms of Kirby’s Dreamland should not so “ruin the competitive viablility of the stage” that it is rendered as just a slight battle field variation. We as a community need to start being able to embrace these stages that can provide even just a little bit of an environment element to every game, even those at a competitive level. TL;DR: Smash bros is a game that should do more to embrace the wide variety of stage and stage layouts, not reduce it to the same 5 or 6 we have been using for the last 2 decades

[@joshuaheins4018]

Why is Yoshi’s Story banned in Ultimate tournaments when it’s always been legal in Melee? If Melee pros can work around slopes at ledge, even make them interesting, then Ultimate pros should work around them just the same. Cope

[@666blaziken]

Because people complain about the slant, it's dumb.

[@joshuaheins4018]

@@666blaziken the slant was in Melee too!

[@amadeus.7436]

Competitive players don't really want to learn to deal with slants. Since Ultimate has a huge stage list there's also no need for them to do so. There's more than enough legal stages with less stuff to deal with. It's more boring this way though.

[@joshuaheins4018]

@@amadeus.7436Competitive players dealt with it in Melee, thus, they should deal with it in Ultimate as well. What makes it legal in one game, but not in another?

[@amadeus.7436]

@@joshuaheins4018 Because the options for legal stages in Melee were fewer. They had to deal with it if they wanted a decent number of legal stages. In Ultimate they don't have to do that because there's too many legal stages, to the point where tournaments have to exclude stages that could be considered legal because it would mess up with counter-pickings and such. While Ultimate players definitely could learn to deal with it there's just not enough players who care to do it when they don't have to.

[@kcStranger]

Even as a college dorm lobby warrior, I always regarded Battlefield as the most "fair" stage in the game, rather than Final Dest.

[@Keygentlemen]

I'm so relieved to see this video and comments like this. I used to think I was insane for hating FD.

[@silikerYT]

Mementos and Castle siege are such cool layouts I'm so sad they're not legal :(

[@Hazardsubot]

Yes pls. Also, I would like to see Yggdrasil legal. I love playing on it with competitive rules

[@jmurray1110]

Unfortunately walkoffs no matter how briefly are a no they are genuinely awful for competition

[@competitively3315]

You won’t be sad once sonic is running the timer on the stage

[@absol-utezero2942]

​@@jmurray1110hazards off Castle Siege. Second Phase Castle Siege is awful - the first is the one people argue for.

[@Tiquono]

Mementos is legal at my college tournaments (I'm the TO)

[@huyphan7825]

Ironic that Melee, the Smash game infamous for it's toxic competition (allegedly), is most willing to embrace a straight up unfair gimmick stage of Poke Stadium where the rest don't

[@jmurray1110]

Not anymore they found a way to freeze it so no more tree bollocks

[@bumibomber]

​@@jmurray1110They haven't frozen it in the past 2 years in any supermajors, tree counterplay is alive and well

[@bumibomber]

They haven't frozen it in any majors in the past year or so, tree counterplay is alive and well

[@competitively3315]

The Metroid dread ewgf clip got me laughing

[@8had0w96]

The clip of "LADDERS" from Community was god-like, thank you so much, it made my day xD

[@CoffeeHype7356]

Fun fact! Final destination has lower upper blast zones than battlefield and nearly every other stage in the game. Mewtwo up-throwing mario in the base of battlefield will kill at 150%, but on final destination it kills at 141%. And smash players still ban Wario Ware.

[@miimiiandco]

That's counteracted by the fact that Platforms don't exist on FD, which can also lead to early kills if say, you get up-tilted on a platform, or ladder combo's by Mario or Mii Brawler.

[@teluoborg]

Very good video. It's always nice to see that there are people who think about what skills tournament should rewards and realize how stage knowledge has been less and less important over the years. The hazards switch was a mistake that killed stage individuality and I wouldn't mind if it was gone in the next game.

[@AcidicSalt]

Or make it be a toggle available on the stage select screen and have what is/isn't a hazard be more consistent

[@MakeVarahHappen]

It is so funny to watch melee play on Pokemon Stadium, who's lack of competitiveness is only rivalrd by Auto scrollers and walk offs, and then see ultimate players want to ban basically every stage.

[@TheTrueBrawler]

More and more Melee tournaments have been freezing Pokemon Stadium in recent years, which is honestly sad to see. Melee still at least has Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, and Yoshi's Story, though, all of which have some combination of slants somewhere on the stage, platforms that move for longer than the first five seconds, walls below the stage that can be jumped off of, and actual hazards to deal with. Aside from Town and City (which is honestly kind of tame in this regard), you can not say this about any of the tournament legal stages in Ultimate.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@TheTrueBrawler PS2 is honestly like, one of the most sensible stage to change. Even among janky stages it's pretty bad. There's something to say about changing the game code, but I think in the age of emulators more and more players are more okay with playing something similar, but not identical, to the base game.

[@lightbrand_]

@@TheTrueBrawlerthe fact that people have been pushing to remove some of the less standard stuff from the melee competitive stagelist (whispy blowing wind, fly guys on yoshi’s) is really sad and I’m thankful it hasn’t gotten all that much traction

[@TempoKong]

I'm happy you talked about the Steve tool issue. Back in the days, when I talked about it, no one cared to listen (Great Cave Offensive in battlefield form uses the 3 tools ffs, 3 tools!)

[@Nate3417]

I kind of feel like the final nail in the coffin is the inability to easily toggle hazards per stage. Like, I _love_ hazardless PS2 in Ultimate so much, but why do I have to lose out on the interesting and dynamic platforms of Fountain of Dreams or the transformations of Pokémon Stadium (Melee) and everything else just to have this one great simple stage at all? It meant that in order to have access to all the great hazardless stages, all the great hazards-on stages had to basically be completely cut. They've put a bandage on it by giving us new stages with similar layouts to PS2, Kalos, and hazardless Smashville that are available with hazards on, but it's still only a bandage fix.

[@roryrainbow77]

I feel like a strong solution to ultimate stage list would be to run a Hazards ON ruleset instead, it's too bad we're pretty late into the games meta now and people would not be happy to get rid of PS2. If we COULD make a sacrafice like that though we could run stages like moving smashville, Yoshi story with Randall would have a reason to exist, and even Fountain of Dreams would be diverse enough to make a reason to add it to round out a more refined ruleset.

[@k-dawgHI]

I never really liked ultimate’s competitive stage list. I always wished there would be more stages being used. I know that some stages need to be banned but man I wish we had more unique stages to play on in a competitive environment. Like I never completely understood how with hazards off we can’t play on Mementos? Is there some broken exploit I’m missing?

[@castform7]

It's the slanted ground. Immediately renders it banned. Smash platers and slants do not get along.

[@HiImAiden]

@@castform7 On top of that, its just way too big. Any character with moderate air speed could circle camp really easily.

[@castform7]

@@HiImAiden Oh yeah, I was going to mention that I thought the blast zones were really far off but the stage's size itself also poses a problem.

[@jmurray1110]

Slants, assymentry and being huge

[@handsUTG]

From the editing to the collabs and clip usage, even just the actual writing of the script i think this video is your best ever. I think its a perfect representation of how your chanels grown man, nice work.

[@Rothana76]

Was listening more in the background while eating lunch, and you triggered a *freeze* from me playing E.M.M.I. sounds while talking Kazuya.

[@ayskaripepperooni2770]

If slopes give advantages to certain characters, can't flat ground do the same? I kinda don't get the logic here.

[@jmurray1110]

It’s not really the advantage that’s the issue it’s the inconsistency of the different angles and key tools being disabled by them (usually combo starters, pressure tools and ledge trapping options

[@HauntLich]

Multiversus has some interesting stages, and the competitive community cried about most of them. The interesting thing that happened though was MVS introduced stages with walls that can be destroyed. Two stages have destructible walls, one of which has the walls serve as platforms. One stage starts as triplat, but when the walls are destroyed it's single platform, and the other becomes final destination when the walls are destroyed. Multiversus actually has a few competitive stages that feature destructible environments and they seem to be pretty well received.

[@jmurray1110]

This is also the game with Townsville hazards on for standard play and the game of thrones stage I don’t think that’s a list people actually want Also doesn’t the court have the buff gimmick active or is that just ffa We need ranked as soon as possible

[@antant6217]

I feel like there are at least 3-5 stages that can be argued for viability, but the Ultimate community will just default to PS2 anyways.

[@JonathanScarlet]

Sad but very true. I don't have much hate for PS2, personally (I actually find frozen PS in Melee slightly more interesting than unfrozen), but seeing it played on for potentially 3-10 games straight is almost mind-numbing. Allowing one run-back is fine, but seeing it happen multiple times is just...arrrgh.

[@maxxpower3d6]

The recommended video after this is "Melee's Terrible Stages (And How We Banned Them)". Good luck with that boulder, Sisyphus.

[@lancesmith8298]

About that last little bit on Yoshi’s Island. Maybe the Ultimate rendition is better on this front, but in Melee, those Shy Guys do indeed cause problems. Sometimes it’s hitbox extension, and sometimes it’s “Shy Guy DI”, where you can SDI every individual hit into a Shy Guy when launched, resulting in complete chaos for followup hits. And also half the time, stages aren’t banned for just slopes (except for when they cause jank to happen) or just moving platforms (except the time Tempest Peak needed to be reworked in Rivals of Aether 1), but also walls causing infinites to happen

[@SpartanPsyche]

Great video as always! This is just a thought, but I love how your sassy humor and funny editing has been made more explicit on these analysis videos throughout the years. The information, as always, is top notch, and I also see more about yourself on little bits like the Kazuya on Metroid Dread and the final message on Pokemon Stadium hazards, which is both hilarious and authentic. Anyways, I love your content, keep it up!

[@camelkingclarith]

I do think the no items, only certain stages ruleset every tournament uses should stay the default, but i think there should at least be a parallel scene that has all items on, all stages included, spirits allowed, amiibos allowed, etc., just because i want to see what kind of chaotic meta would develop from top level players having to deal with all that bullshit. It would be like a second version of the Olympics that allows doping just to see what the hell would happen

[@jmurray1110]

The enganced games are arriving next year

[@Yuukiko_Flaze]

Absolutely agree, i hate how sterile stages are in platform fighters

[@flashtirade]

Alpha and omega -> "the beginning and end" Omega -> "the end" Final Destination -> "the end" Omega -> Final Destination

[@gameboyn64]

The smash community: why do we always play on ps2? Also the smash community: let's ban everything because i don't like this small aspect about these stages even though it might actually be completely fair

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

Tbf the diverse additions like Warioware tend to be overcenturalizing and is very hard to even practice in a competitive environment well over 5 years old. Granted, I’m still in the camp that we should at least TRY new stagelists, but with how stage striking tends to just get rid of overpowering stage/character combination like Kazuya on FD, it’s so easy to just default back to PS2 lmao

[@justice8718]

Smash devs messed up the stages, not the players.

[@AstaryuuGaming]

@@justice8718 Oh really now. Please, tell me: why is Corneria banned? You know, the Star Fox stage where you fight on a spaceship with 3 platforms.

[@justice8718]

@@AstaryuuGaming Stalling on the ship’s gun department.

[@AstaryuuGaming]

@@justice8718 Not talking about the Melee one, that one deserves a ban. The Brawl(?) Star Fox map where you fly through space.

[@xboxgamer474246]

On items, I think it’s important to note that items have only gotten more meta warping & more intrusive as the games have gone along. I have seen melee pros play with items on and have engaging, compelling games. I have never seen ultimate pros play with items & have a good match.

[@xboxgamer474246]

Idk if there’s any surviving footage but Mango / Axe Wednesdays frequently used banned stages and items if you wanted a citation.

[@googa9689]

Im so glad mockrock is still uploading on his second channel! 😁😁😁

[@fntthesmth423]

The extremely specific and fleeting mention of "sitting through boating school" makes this intro really relatable despite my inability to do boats or play smash

[@_ERR_404_]

one of the things that really makes competitive ultimate disappointing is the rather samey and uninteresting stagelist. Like what is the point of stage striking anyways if every stage is the same. it also just makes the game less fun, like sure I'm here to win, but I also want to have fun.

[@pabscoello]

12:10 is that Coney screaming YAHOO in the background? Lmaoo

[@gloopiu]

Glad to see a video give a thorough breakdown on not only FD but ultimate’s stage list as a whole since I find it sad that the stagelist has gotten smaller over time. While thinking about the stagelists, a random thought I had about them was what if we had 2 stagelists where one list is hazards only and a hazard-less list. The set would start with only hazard-less list available and after the first match the opponent has the option to pick from a hazards on stagelist or continue picking from the hazard-less stagelist and banning and stage picking would remain the same from there and this would continue until the set ends.

[@mettatonex7221]

Last thing I was expecting from this video was a Klay World reference within the first minute, but it's there and suddenly I feel a lot younger.

[@daegan_ftw]

Air shielding seems like an obvious idea that every platform fighter seems to ignore for some reason. It would make flat stages way more balanced.

[@kingnewgameplus6483]

Its obviously a bigger issue in smash because the stages actually matter, but this mentality affects the entire fgc. Look at an EVO grand finals in any tournament, and see how many are played on a training stage.

[@calliecreates06]

Actually a really cool looking sponsor. I don't have any cash rn, but I'll look into these guys.

[@theelectricant98]

Holy hell your editing on this was incredible. I also love the narrative hook you opened this with linking it to your own experience, overall great storytelling and presentation man!!

[@eribrin650]

the sketchy visuals in this are so beautiful they look great

[@Snowie6606]

mock you dont know how happy this video made me, i already had a gam that is a mix of plaform fighters and normal fighters planned (think something like YOMI but real time) and my main plan is to have walls be a important tool to everyone, i see huge potential in stuff like my cabin stage that have a ton of different slopes and shit but overall helps both people. this might just be because my plans for the games mechanics are already weird, a character like bolt just get "clones" and combo extenders but low damage. another change is getting rid of backairs and forward airs for sideairs that can turn you around when used. i can rant all day about my plans but this is a youtube comment no point in going forward

[@tf2isagoodgame282]

Good luck on your game!

[@Snowie6606]

@@tf2isagoodgame282 thanks man

[@spongyoshi]

Loved that final part, I love stages in platform fighters, honestly more than the fighters themselves, so seeing not only the vast majority getting overlooked by pros but also that trend creeping up in other platform fighters is honestly so disappointing.. My biggest want for an Ultimate mod would be one that makes every stage more viable, like Figure 8 without the walkout would be so amazing for example! And Mario Maker's randomizer could 100% be reworked to only give viable stages.

[@CopperScott]

I'm glad that Klayword is in someone else's mind because I've never heard anyone make a reference to it

[@exiledhero3791]

The omega forms i had always thought less literally, instead going for the fact that the omega is the last of the Greek letters. Thus, the Final Form instead of Omega Form

[@jayd0lin214]

Im glad you brought up the visuals on FD being distracting or sometimes harmful to look at. Sure its cool for watching a set but it often distracts me because of how fucking BRIGHT it can be. This is especially true for Ultimate, since it is capable of more visuals. Even other stages can be equally distracting, like Hollow Bastion and Yygdrasil's Altar (i probably spelled that one wrong but whatever). Im just glad im not the only one, it seems like im the only one who complains about it in my scene lol

[@mickad150]

The most fun I have ever had watching competitive Smash (Whitch I'll admit is pretty low on the games I have watched) is Alpharad's Items on rule sets. Watching the best players in the world fight with brand new rule sets or having to fight hard DK was great and I want to see more of it. I'll also compare it to competitive Starcraft 2 something that I also have not followed in a decent amount of time until a few days ago where a mod (that's not tournament legal...yet) combines the factions of Brood war, it's over 20 years old parent game, with the modern ones. Pro's from both games are now playing it just for fun and that's ignoring the years of free for all and 2v2/3v3/4v4 and Archon mode (2/3/4 players on one base making for insane Mirco battles) popping up from time to time. None of these modes could make it into competitive but they are still fun to see. Granted it's also more so that Blizzard feels better about modding and....well everything compared to Nintendo. I would also like to mention the maps in comp SC2 are also getting more stale with the craziest maps have like rocks blocking a 3rd base 9/10 times also being pushed by the Pro's, but after seeing the most recent balance patch made by pro's I can say: Pros are not game designers. Ultimately to coolest stuff to watch is not often the coolest stuff to play, and when you need to eat, sleep, and breathe a game. A bad map could leave many players burnt out.

[@KingCalero]

Everything trying to emulate the competitive mindset of melee has killed a lot of innovation. Expanding on the mechanics of the genre and utilizing it's unique stages are a foreign concept to many. Many games try to make little changes but to no avail as they still attempt to appease the competitive melee crowd. This works for a time period until their target audience decides they could just play melee instead of this new game which sets the innovation back to zero. We really need a new smash game that drastically changes the core game mechanics while the players go into it with a fresh and open mindset instead of attempting to continuously mimic an arbitrary way to play the game from the past. Let the old games be what they are and let the new games grow beyond that.

[@i-am-linja]

I'm all in on Rivals 2. The devs have shown a willingness not to take themselves entirely seriously, so there's a chance we'll get wacky stages as DLC eventually.

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

When I initially discovered competitive Melee (~2007) and found out that stages were banned, it definitely seemed like a skill issue. 20 years later, it STILL feels like a skill issue, just one that I understand better. However, more recent games seem to be banning stages in the interest of preserving a certain gameplay style that benefit certain characters. Banning a stage because a low tier might sometimes have an advantage over a high tier there isn't a good reason.

[@incognito718]

Great video. Your editing helped to visualize some parts (such as adding sfx to characters jumping to show how frequently they do it), you knew when to put a joke in post, and you can tell you put your research into it. Love it. I want to add in to the conversation with a couple of things: Super Smash Brothers is an inherently volatile game despite developer intentions. That, and I want to also compare Super Smash Brothers within the spectrum of platform fighters. I feel comfortable in saying that the developers of Super Smash Brothers, Rivals of Aether would want the lifespan of a stock to be measured in minutes (a minute per stock, a minute and a half, half a minute...). To do this, you want players to win neutral against the opponent, then inflict damage, repeat several times until the opponent is at a reasonable percent to finally, KO by putting the opponent in the blast zone. Despite the intentions of the developers, the only necessary step to win is "put your opponent in the blast zone". A low percent gimp does happen. Ganoncides have determined games, Bayonetta still 0-to-KO's once in a blue moon. Generally, these options are rare because if the opponent knows it, they can be avoided and the person going for one of these can also be punished. Possibly with the same consequence that they tried to inflict on the opponent. If the stage were to allow these options to be easier and more common, then we start to get into gameplay that favours a type of gameplan too much to be fair. To promote fair and balanced play where both combatants ideally have to fight to win multiple neutral interactions to win a stock, you end up having to ban a lot of features that would allow a low percent KO or deviate from the purpose of fighting. Any wall is banned because low hitstun moves can allow a 0-to-KO. Any terrain in close proximity to the blast zone is banned because you can stay there to have a stock determined in one interaction. As a fighting game, people don't want stages where movement becomes a bigger obstacle than the opponent. In fact, any stage that is too hazardous is also written off. So in order to have a game that plays out as a traditional fight without players exclusively fishing for low percent KOs, you have to ban every stage that doesn't conform to that "ideal" version of Smash Brothers. I want to compare this to two games that lean more into the "platform" side of platform fighter with much more varied stages. Duck Game and TowerFall. Contrary to what might meet the eye, these games can be surprisingly competitive. Duck Game has been shown at Combo Breaker and TowerFall is the only reason why the Ouya was ever within the premises of EVO (as a side event). These two games do some things that make degenerate play harder to pull off and less rewarding. These two games have the players die if they get hit by anything, so the expectation is that lives are much more short and players are free to try fighting unwinnable battles because losing a life in these games is less severe than in Smash Bros. After every round, TowerFall and Duck Game reset the players. Meaning that an unwinnable fight will last for only one round. Super Smash Brothers is in a bit of a rough spot from its grand design. Because "putting your opponent in the blast zone" can be done disgustingly fast, but people generally don't design these games to be won from one interaction. So rules in tournaments have to effectively disallow anything that would enable games to devolve into "whoever gets first hit wins" or where the combatants are not in combat. I agree with your final point. It hurts me inside a bit that even indie games, a genre known for being experimental, and wild, have collectively decided "we are having not-Final Destination, not-Smashville, not-Battlefield and so on to appease the one form of play that people are already doing". I love seeing top players in things such as Alpharad's Casual Invitational, because you can see people using skill with some items and stage hazards. If items and hazards were more balanced with less randomness and volatility, it would be really sick to see what comes of it. I mean, Brawlhalla proves that items CAN work competitively, and Melee of all games shows that you can have weird little quirks with your stages and still have it be competitive. I'm just throwing my thoughts out there. It may be a little disorganized and I will not apologize for the length.

[@SSL_2004]

People need to understand that imbalance is PART of the balance. The whole reason we have multiple stages in the first place instead of just playing on PS2 or BF every. single. time. Is for variety. To give certain characters advantages and others disadvantages. As it stands though, platforms are literally the only advantages that the competitive seen deems even remotely "fine" and it's ridiculous. The ability to turn off stage hazards should have given ultimate more variety than ever. In reality it just gave people an excuse to keep it as stagnant as possible. Even absolutely harmless hazards like the moving platforms in Smashville are kept off, making it just a hollow bastion clone, while simultaneously and hypocritically disabling stages like Fountain of Dreams for being a battlefield clone when it WOULD be more than that if they did allow hazards. People need to just get over themselves tbh. Yeah the ghost platforms on Yoshi's Island Brawl can save someone in a clutch situation. And guess what? It's hype as hell. Deal with it and keep playing the game. Yeah someone's sharking you from under Skyloft. Boohoo. They chose to play a character that can do that and you chose to play a character that can't handle it. You signed this deal on the character select screen. It's your problem now. Deal with it. Determining whether or not a stage should be banned based on how many times people pick it is misguided, because in reality people are babies who don't want to play on stages they're uncomfortable with even if it would give them an objective advantage. The Smash scene is allergic to change.

[@GlossArt]

This thought process is completely fine until you consider the fact that people play this game for money and that competitors spend money themselves to even attend the biggest tournaments. In that context, "your opponent randomly living is hype as hell" and "boohoo, deal with getting sharked" make no sense. That second thing wouldn't even be a boon to the viewers either, so what's the value in that? Like, have you ever watched someone get sharked? It is painfully boring

[@jmurray1110]

We would put hazards on those those sorts of stages but that requires time the TOs don’t give and since hazards off opens more doors that’s the default blame the devs for this oversight the organisers are just working with the limitations

[@SSL_2004]

@@jmurray1110 It really doesn't take that long to select a different ruleset.

[@jmurray1110]

@@SSL_2004 individually yes but doing it every match builds up so they don’t bother letting you

[@Xahnel]

@@GlossArt competitive tournaments would make basically no money if they had no audience. And the vast majority of people competing in these tournaments aren't getting paid to be there anyways. It's all a gamble, a gamble you make the moment you buy the plane ticket and hotel room. All successful sports are spectator sports. Because the spectators are the ones spending money to support the competion, for everything from buying tickets to watch live to buying things from sponsors to encourage future sponsorships. So if competetive smash wants to find more success, they need to accept input from the spectators.

[@krubbington]

Great video. I agree that platform fighters really should add more variety to their stage layouts, Ultimate's stage list is so boring for how big the game is (legalize hazards on!! legalize fountain!!). I love how you brought up the example of Randall being an unorthodox stage element that's predictable and can lead to cool plays; more of that, please!

[@Carbine64]

You didn't mention the recent Off-Season Melee tournament, which notably had Mute City unbanned, and players had a lot of fun on that, with more vehicles (pun intended) for skill expression.

[@ReikuYin]

I know metas happenn for a reason, but this video speaks to the very reason I gave up competive fighters way back in the MvC2 days. We sometimes complacent a game so hard that the things that make it fun and interesting fall away. Seeing the same characters played or stages, even in non platform fighters makes watching less interesting. Like MvC3U. You can only see a Zero lightning loop so many yimes before it just stops being fun to watch. And I'm all gor visually clarity, but training stages aren't interesting to watch, and I argue give players an advantage as they donnot have yo think as hard about spacing givng a lot of them have that baked in. I want variety back, seeing people play around hazard and changes.

[@absoul112]

There is probably more to what Coney is saying, but my response to what was said is, “what difference would it make?” If I was the best player in the world, would that make asking for a change in stagelists more valid?

[@davidvkimball]

Fantastic video. Thank you! Wish you had mentioned Project M 3.6 stages as I think some of them really do hit that balance too. Also Smack Studio which is experimenting with custom stages for more unique and custom tourney stage rulesets.