The Problem With Belt Ranks (Feat.

The Fight Dialogue and I discuss the problems with the belt system, alternative systems, and what belt ranks even mean.

[@jacktraven9930]

The problem with belt ranks is that the only thing that changes is the color, not the size. And my gut is still expanding to this day

[@ThatFreeWilliam]

"I'm a thicc belt"

[@MisterJayEm]

People say belts don't matter, but those people's pants are falling down.

[@christophervelez1561]

The patch idea sounds really cool. I think for the competitive scene the ELO rating would be interesting.

[@joshmountain9705]

Could do both tbh. Patches are important for things like coaches etc. but the competitive scene getting a proper ranking system like ELO would be nice.

[@ghostrunner2138]

thats basically just how normal sports work, you just have a bunch of accolades applicable to your career

[@dustinjones5146]

That smoke alarm is struggling 😂

[@dont_take_it_personal]

Hiding your power-level by not going for a blackbelt is a chad move

[@IzunaSlap]

BJJ Frieza

[@farkasmactavish]

Taido karate has charts given to each student to track how many classes they've been to. Once they're filled out, you can start taking belt tests, until you pass one. Then you get the next chart, which has more slots on it to fill than the last one. It took me 5 years to get my brown belt, which in their system came before a brown belt with a black line down the length of it. If you’re a brown-black belt, you're basically a teacher's assistant, and don't have a chart to track. Instead, other black belts (I forget how many, it's been 7 years since I last went) have to recommend you to take the black belt test, which includes kata, technique demonstration, and a sparring match. Also, notably, you're not even allowed to start attending sparring classes until you're a green belt, which is the third rank from the bottom. Also kids have more belt colors than adults, which means kids need to go to more classes, and tend to become black belts (if they do) at around the same age as an adult would.

[@roland-plus]

"take the black belt test, which includes kata, technique demonstration, and a sparring match." Rank should be skill based first and foremost with a little bit of the time spent component added in for consideration. Memorizing stuff and performing rehearsed movements ≠ black belt level even if you have been doing it for 10 years you can still suck skill wise

[@ll2nycell]

Alex Munoz is a UFC fighter. He got his blue belt like 6 months ago. He has been tapping black belts for 10 years.

[@michaelrockford6449]

You could do something like chess does, combine titles with ELO. EG: You have a Grand Master at a FIDE rating of 2500, he is a Grand Master he has knowledge of the game and is competent, but you put him up against GM Magnus Carlson who is 2828 he's going to get rocked even though they are both GMs. Rating/ELO that would be standardized across the industry would be interesting to try to implement that

[@Narguhl]

This is done in HEMA via HEMA-Ratings. I haven't really met anyone who is a high ranked fencer who takes it 100% seriously. More like a ice breaker joke. The Island effect is huuuuge.

[@ghostrunner2138]

I agree with this. You should have a belt maybe for your knowledge and time, but you ELO is strictly your skill

[@ThatFreeWilliam]

I want there to be an Epic Anime Dancefighting League where we fight to, and over, awesome SONGS to fight to. So not "Oh no, you're not a black belt until you beat me" but instead "That new Gods song is MINE, I will fight you for it by fighting to it."

[@VLM95]

I love this! Thank you for taking the time to make these videos, I’d love to see more. I would be very interested to hear both of your takes on what makes a “legitimate” martial arts school.

[@hamstermk4]

Quality content as always. I really liked the boy scout merit badge idea.

[@justin8865]

Halfway through the conversation gets more intersesting, the first half, is just generic belt debate stuff. If anyone sees this just saving yall time.

[@liamdurham7236]

Gonna give you an odd comparison re: not getting a belt- I don't have a college degree. I'm a senior engineer in fintech. If I went and got a degree, I would be less desirable, unless it was a masters or phd. Getting a masters or phd takes 6+ years... never will be worth it. When I talk about my martial arts experience, I say I wrestled in high school and I know some other stuff. I am, ostensibly, pretty good at sparring and I often spar with people who have 5+ years in different martial arts. But because I don't talk about my childhood belts, and I don't claim any ranks, It's -not- a 'surprise' when I'm highly competitive. it's expected. Why would I be doing this, for fun, if I wasn't good at it. Why would I be able to do my job, if I wasn't good at it. Having a certification would make me look worse. Because we all secretly know the hobbyist of X is more up to date and probably better than the day-jobber who does X... because they like doing it.

[@comso3632]

I cut up my old karate belts to make hand wraps.

[@jonathansalvador5037]

I’ve always thought of belt ranks as similar to academic achievements like a PHD. Having one doesn’t make you smart, but it means you’ve demonstrated knowledge and theoretical understanding of a set of relevant concepts, such that you could adequately explain them to someone else and preserve the integrity of the original concept.

[@AstroNut88]

I just randomly stumbled upon your channel due to my curiousity about the keysi fighting method and the one you did, analyzing and disecting it was the first content that I watched from you, and since then I just fell into another rabbit hole of content in this channel that I know I would enjoy. Will be subscribing and binging your content from here on out, and certainly would be waiting for more in the future.

[@fredeuhrbrand3789]

Patches is actually really interesting! If nothing else - the whole 'I don't accept dogma' sparks so many interesting things! Keep em coming :-D

[@kez_the_reaper2657]

I think 90% of training should be self directed to be honest like maybe if someone's an absolute beginner first day of training they need that approach if okay here's a jab here's how you throw it or here's a guard pass but once your at least semi competent you need to drive yourself Especially in ju-jistu most classes your shown a move, then you roll because most of the time if your following just what was shown in The first half the lesson, you can be just tryna hammer yourself to a position to attempt the technique shown and maybe you get a rep against a resisting partner maybe you don't and it's not bad you can get better that way but if your driving yourself you can be like okay rolling. I want to work this takedown I have on my mind, if that works okay I need to work getting and maintaining this top position and one of these three submission attempts and with a back up plan what your gonna work from bottom Yeah sorry not really about the topic but you mentioned it and got me thinking 🤣

[@bobbydabutcha]

Belts are a symbol of personal dedication and commitment. They help tell who’s who on the mats but they don’t aways necessarily tell you what their skill level is. In the end, only you can decide if it’s worth working towards and pursuing. Two year Blue belt. I was a White belt for four and a half years. Still showing up and giving it Hell.

[@RicoMnc]

Belts should be accompanied by a corresponding training curriculum with identifiable goals. It is a way of quantifying and measuring experience and competency, however subjective it may be.

[@farkasmactavish]

That's how taido karate does it.

[@augustmeyer4147]

Long Comment Warning. I first started studying martial arts in 2001, and studied Shorei-Ryu Karate, BJJ, and Muay Thai. I earned a high blue belt in karate (about half way up the kyu system), and the school I trained at didn't use the "traditional" BJJ belt system. Instead they used the karate belt system for the BJJ. So I *ahem* earned a "red" belt in BJJ. I didn't know until a few years later what the traditional rank structure was and that red belt was the GM of the art. So I had to stop telling people I was a red belt in BJJ, now I just say white. I studied solid for about a year and a half and then became an adult and fell out of training regularly. I also started working in law enforcement, during which my attitude towards martial arts shifted and I stopped caring about belt and more about combat effectiveness. What this really became was an excuse not to train regularly in any particular art. Over the years job duties required me to travel around the country and I started studying martial arts where ever I was for a few weeks or a few months at a time. As a result I've collected nearly a dozen different martial arts but never really ranked up in any of them. I've studied everything from karate, to BJJ, to Krav Maga, Russian Systema, Wing Chun, KFM, and others. Collectively, I have many, many years of training, but not an expert in anything. Despite training BJJ sporadically over the years I'm really about the equivalent of a white belt with 3 stripes in terms of skill level. Over 20 years after starting martial arts, I'm still not an expert. This is problematic because I love to teach. I would like to teach martial arts, not necessarily start my own school, but teach at someone else's school perhaps. The problem is that you generally have to have a credential to do so. And in the martial arts world, that credential is black belt. So as of last year, I have started caring about belt once again and working towards my black belt in Hapkido. I chose Hapkido because in my work in law enforcement and tactical security, I won't claim to have been in a ton of physical altercations, but of the ones I have, not once have I ever punched, kicked, or choked anyone. Not that there's *never* a time to do so, I just never have. What I *have* done for real is wrestling, judo, and hapkido. I've wrestled people into handcuffs. I've thrown people to the ground, and I've used pain compliance techniques to get and maintain control of suspects. I've never used any of the BJJ I learned. For those reasons I chose hapkido, which my school also teaches some judo and BJJ to supplement. As far as belt ranks, it is a big frustration to me how the belt ranking system varies so much between, and within, styles as to be almost meaningless. I don't really know how to fix it. I'm also a competitive chess player, and in that they use an ELO rating system. I saw at least one other comment that suggested it as well. When you win games your rating goes up, when you lose games your rating goes down. How much depends on the rating disparity. To achieve the title of Grandmaster, you must attain a rating of at least 2500 and have three GM Norms. A norm if I recall correctly means to have a performance rating over 2600 in three tournaments where there were GMs from other countries playing. So not only do you have to attain the minimum rating, you also have to have three world class performances. Once you attain the GM title, it's yours forever even if your rating goes down. Most GMs have ratings in the 2400s. They hit their peak, got their title, and then been on the decline. I would like to see something like this applied to martial arts, but it has a few weaknesses. First, it mandates some sort of competition. Not everyone wants to compete, and some martial arts lend themselves better to competition than others. Second, with an ELO system like chess has, it is EXTREMELY difficult to achieve GM. Worldwide there are only about 1800 GMs. You can play chess your whole life and never achieve any title let alone GM. In chess, the vast majority of GMs started playing when they were little kids, and then spent a significant amount of time studying the game exclusively. If you're an adult starting chess, there's basically no real chance of attaining a GM title even with 30 years of practice and study. Not impossible, but difficult. I would like to really explore more ways to make the belt system matter more. With some larger organizations with an established curriculum, having a black belt normally means at minimum the person understands and has some level of mastery within that curriculum.

[@Narguhl]

I could watch you all day

[@Warlordjoker2394]

I tapped a black belt before I tapped a blue belt in jiu jitsu 😂. I think the thing with belts is most people have an idea of what a blue purple brown black belt should be, but that's all up to interpretation depending on where you train. I believe that you as an individual are responsible for your belts worth ! In August I got my purple belt. It was a great feeling. I love it. I don't necessarily think it makes me better than anybody else. What's most important is being the best skilled grappler you can be, not what your belt color is

[@PerunaMuayThai]

Black belt, white belt, I don't care. I hear a smoke detector with a low battery beeping and that's how I judge people 😂

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

16:12 is like hot chicks saying looks don't matter.

[@enreeekay2754]

Happy 50k!

[@ConveyApp]

I’m a 43 yr old no-gi (1) striped purple belt. Rank is important, but I feel mat time is a better metric. I’m looking at around 6,000 mat hours. I train close to 1,000 hours per year currently. Thats not all rolling, but instructing, drilling, and rolling.

[@icemanespoo2977]

Black belt is just one step on the lifelong journey. Within a style belt shows more or less how far the person has been on the journey. As my rank increases I have noticed that training becomes bit more of a discusssion with others that have been doing the same thing longer. We can talk together on what works how people see certain things.

[@mikespike80]

Deferring to higher belt colours is similar to deferring to academic qualifications; it's not perfect but, in general, you'll get more consistent results following those with credentials than trying to work out who to ask each time.

[@aldenday6842]

Can you do a video on marketing in the martial arts?

[@markzuckerberg3128]

I went to a BJJ school. I was just as good and beating a lot of the purple belts when I was a blue belt. People told me I was really good. It was clear the school teacher wasn't promoting me because I didn't go to any seminars. I didn't really care but eventually left for other reasons. Before I joined a new school, I bought a purple belt from Amazon. Went to the new school and was beating most of the purple belts there. Been trying there since. Got promoted to Brown after 2 years. Got 3 more years to go for black. Black belt will be cool but I don't yearn for it. I just like learning and getting better.

[@Abettergrappler]

College wrestlers. The biggest wrench in the belt system. I also though about the limited system like in afro samurai. Should only be X amount of Black Belts in the world at any given time.

[@mrarmaggedon31415926]

I love the patch system. I was thinking of something akin to military ribbons which could be ironed into belts. Ultimately people want to go down different paths; some want to compete, some want to teach, some want to develop new techniques. A linear belt progression just doesn't make sense. I also feel there should be an "emeritus" belt for people who no longer have the ability to hold their own in competition.

[@combatlearning]

@ArmchairViolence the belt system was attached to the kyu/dan system by Jigoro Kano. There used to be a randori-based point system -- I read about it somewhere -- but I'm having trouble finding anything written about it anymore. What most people don't realize is that the kyu/dan system is taken from the strategy game Go, and Go uses a elo rating system like chess. I agree with you about "time-spent" for ranks for the exact reasons you stated. Especially if you use the constraints-led approach aka the ecological approach (lol). btw I also trained at Luca Lepri's place for like a year. I actually think that rank and rating should be roughly the same. And like chess and Go, there's a difference between club-level ratings and the same rating at an international/professional level. In jiu jitsu, this exists informally as a difference between recreational and competition colored belts. In the Gracie system, there's even a difference between teaching ranks and fighter ranks. These are all important and viable conventions that balance between knowledge-based and ability-based ranking. An elo rating system for competition solves so many problem AND potentially helps grow participation AND fixes the rank fixation issues. makes sandbagging virtually impossible. Hey, I'd love to have you on my show Combat Learning Podcast to interview you about these thoughts and some others from your channel. It'd be a lot of fun and very useful content for both our audiences.

[@lihchong2267]

On the stealing belts system - you've been watching afro samurai, haven't you?

[@fakename3042]

S.A.W Submission Arts Wrestling has a belt system too.

[@BigTiddyGothGrappler]

14:15 DUDE I HAD TEH SAME FREAKING IDEA. Instead for my system, you have an Elo ranking. Once you break say 1200 you get Blue, 1600 Purple, whatever. Well whenever you get that belt though, you get to keep it. Because at one point you had that level. But if you're an active belt that's ranked & had a match in the past year, then you get a gold bar instead of a black bar. This way you can tell if whatever they're saying is possibly relevant.

[@GermanSausagesAreTheWurst]

They used to say. one thousand hours to Shodan.

[@milgrimpsycho585]

Kinda off topic but related to your dilemma but I wouldn’t say I’m super intelligent. I met people with greater intelligence before. But I have the habit of autistic infodumping and coming up with cerebral theories. Yet I never graduated college and almost failed high school. Similarly speaking I talk about personal development and advocate for healthy things for people to do in relationships yet never been in one lol So I understand you completely. I was actually curious on starting my own martial arts and strategy channel in the future.

[@richardpanini971]

There’s weight limits and belt based matches for a reason Also, i hear many muay thai fighters say “im equivalent to a bjj xxx belt” when talking of their aptitude I think the belt system should stay even if its no gi

[@JuaneDosesII-wj6dd]

Great Grand father’s dried out , 1/4 inch harness leather belt with the rusty buckle is the only one to fear

[@Bufallobill]

Somebody needs to change their firealarm battery

[@techniquejiujitsu8832]

In the grand scheme of things, no. To the individual, possibly, it is representative of their personal progress. To me, I don’t even wear mine anymore.

[@milgrimpsycho585]

My idea was There should be two types of ranking systems. One for competition/applied fighting skills like savate colored gloves. And belts for theoretical knowledge.

[@miqvPL]

Belt ranks reflect knowledge about martial art. Not skill level since athleticism, gender, size will always play a huge part between trained fighters, along with experience in other martial arts. As unranked judoka I can fold orange belts due to being larger, stronger and training other things, while another unranked, lighter judoka can submit me easily since he trained bjj for a year and I didn't. I don't like bjj ranking system since it's extremely subjective and there are jokes about "sea of blue belts" where the skill/knowledge level between blue belts varies between (roughly compared to judokas) yellow and blue belts. If your belt progress depends on your prof liking you and feeling like you're ready for the next rank- it has no meaning to me. I like judo system better, you gotta put time (and a number of won randori or competition points after orange belt) to progress and then show next set of techniques for the next belt, showing you can do them fluently. So the belt directly shows that you mastered this set of techniques already. Personally I don't care about being a black belt, since it carries the responsibility of being a representative of your martial art (people outside martial arts are going to judge your martial art based on your behavior), and that would mean I cannot run around insulting 7th dan goju ryu karate masters (did that 2 days ago, it was awesome since dude was a fucking delusional moron). But having, say, a green belt in taekwondo and orange belt in judo is currently my goal. It means you know something and aren't a complete novice like white/yellow belts, but you're still far enough from a black belt to not feel that responsibility shite. Basically being an adept.

[@AyeJordan7]

U have to be at a certain skill when it comes to martial arts

[@miqvPL]

@@AyeJordan7 yeah, to expand what I meant- knowledge about martial art means technique. Understanding the technique requires you to be able to perform it well. That's the certain skill you mention. Maybe "skill level" in my original comment was not a right term for what I meant, and I meant superiority in a fight/competition. You can know more techniques and perform them better, but another practitioner with lower rank can easily beat you because they are taller, stronger, younger, have better reflexes, are faster, have years of sparring experience over you.

[@Bladerunner39]

Hey armchair violence, have you ever heard of art of the dojo if so, what is your opinion on him?

[@deltabravo1969]

I have a black belt made of canvas.

[@user-wd4ge2zh2c]

Yes, but only if they matter.

[@BigTiddyGothGrappler]

11:44 It's honestly usually because it's a garbage technique. Gordon Ryan has even said that Kimura's only really work on bad people. Same with Cross Ashi. Nobody good is getting finished in Cross Ashi. They'll go to turn out & when they do you pass the leg over to Inside Ashi & finish there. We also know now that pulling guard gives you a far higher percentage chance of winning the match, and shooting for a takedown automatically lowers your chances of winning down to 48%. Point is, nerds are taking over & I'm here for it

[@BigTiddyGothGrappler]

20:05 I can think of one lmao

[@user-jr2mk7mw5w]

If you take a Martial art to learn that art belts matter,,if you are taking a Martial art for self defense,or street,or military combat,belts don't matter

[@snoozer0101]

i do like the idea of beating a black belt to get a black belt just not the limited number and expiry.

[@primuspilushb]

I think the belt system is good. Its an immune system against fakes. Granted, they DO happen its overall alot less than in other martial arts, and its really easy to spot them.

[@SoilderKrizer]

A smart person who studies martial arts will tell you that patches and belts are only their to show how long you have been studying however the belt holds no meaning outside of the realm of that art form simply because the world is more about the art of fighting,reason i lot of chinese old school martial artist fail when it comes to stuff like mma because mma is about learning the art of fighting in a non systemic way (in basic terms yes but also no)

[@torrinmaag5331]

Only issue with the patch system is how dorky that would look lol

[@benephelps]

Belts matter a lot because of the ritual associated with gaining a rank. Our culture is too void of rites of passage, and recognizing the achievements of our peers. The belt ceremony is like a baptism in a way. We need rituals. We need recognition. We need meaningful celebrations for progress in all sorts of things.

[@manuelzapata1192]

Belts don't mean anything But in our hearts it should. And what I mean Is that they should have knowledge Of the system Of that marshall art. Anadotically I know two Men who do type one do they would f*** people up. But actually hold no rank Their Uncle was An instructor in the Korean military. Move to the states I had been teaching them from the time they could walk.

[@mryeast69]

We want more videos MMA boy, chop chop.

[@Dautar748]

FYI youtube unsubbed me from you, no I didnt unsub and forgot I did

[@derrickrobinson7269]

Its shallow but if you cannot beat me Idc what belt you are & it'll be hard to listen to you

[@Shiresgammai]

The entire idea of having "belts" and using "master" as a title for someone who has never actually fought anybody are very modern phenomena. Belts were invented in the 19th century, during a time when a strong sportification of Asian martial arts took place. Isn't all of this bizarre? We're hiring to get taught how to handle violence by people who have never actually experienced real violence. It's like hiring a violin teacher who has never seen a violin (let alone played one) and who only knows violins and how they look like and how they sound like as abstract ideas.

[@Rootboy420]

Getting a black belt might not necessarily take several years if you choose TKD 🤣

[@DemonHunter-cq9pn]

We don't care about belts on street. Streets are ruthless

[@AyeJordan7]

What will speak is your skill level,belt don’t mean shi

[@bob67497]

For the record, as someone who has trained his ass off in a variety of disciplines and self-taught via the internet and NEVER lost a fight, I'd say your belt rating is pretty insignificant as long as you can fight, and the real ones will always listen to you, because we can tell you're legit too.

[@nicolaslaquier]

Your arguments are sound and well thought out. So your credentials are basically irrelevant.