The Problem with Cessationist Arguments

Рет қаралды 16,573

6 ай бұрын

1 Corinthians 13:10 has been used to argue that the completion of the Canon marked the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit, I think that is a misreading of the passage. Check this out!
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#Bible #Theology #MichaelHeiser

Пікірлер: 132

@kazamareenkurios8197 6 ай бұрын

Sincerely grateful to whoever continues to upload Dr. Heiser's videos. His teachings have played a crucial role in learning about the Bible & having questions answered. May the Lord continue to comfort his family & friends till they meet again.

@Ruthyism- 6 ай бұрын

I agree!! Mike has been a sound voice in this crazy world!

@UnassimilatedRG 6 ай бұрын

Same! 😢

@jasonsiebold 6 ай бұрын

Amen to that. Dr Mike has been a huge influence in my walk with Christ. I miss him terribly.

@uwekonnigsstaddt524 6 ай бұрын

The first church I attended was into the “gifts” of the Spirit. Charismatic you can all it. As a new brand new believer, I was pretty much ignorant of Scripture. But one thing that made me aware of false teachings, was that I was exposed to the false doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. When I started asking questions on what was the Biblical basis for the stuff the church believe, I never got straight answers. It was all about experiences with an apparent reference in the Bible. Does God always heal? Was a question I asked and one day a well meaning brother in the LORD was upset since he could not reconcile a healing miracle with Scripture. Anyways, I left the church and really started to study. Acts 17:11 is one of my fav texts. Put everything and everyone to the test of Scripture.

@johnbrantley6762 6 ай бұрын

I don't know if anybody agrees with me but men and women who are biblical scholars like Michael are modern day prophets in that they give us an in-depth view of God's word. As they say a deep dive into his word.

@LadyAdepa 6 ай бұрын

I am sad I am discovering him this late, but I am happy that there is enough of his teaching out there for me to feed on. God bless and comfort his family.

@capiseric 3 ай бұрын

So glad you found him.

@inquisitor4635 6 ай бұрын

It is very moving for me listening to Heiser teaching during his declining days and witnessing his dedication.

@matthewevans5758 6 ай бұрын

Yeah this is a pretty crazy proof text for cessation arguments lol, it says these things will cease “when the perfect comes” which is talking about the Kingdom of God in its fullness.

@Coden11 6 ай бұрын

I miss Dr. Heiser.

@fouzyraphael2100 6 ай бұрын

Amen Even the church fathers talked about how the gifts were still with them and didn't cease

@mikaelpetersen3331 6 ай бұрын

it begs the question though - how many Christians today have ever met just one single individual who could actually speak in tongues and prophecy factual things that come to pass? If the gifts have not ceased, surely it would be a large part of faithful, born again Christians who have come into contact with such brethren. But it just so happens I have never met a Christian who could actually spontaneously stand up in a crowd and speak Russian or Hindi or some other language he had never studied. Likewise have I never met anyone who could prophecy a specific and detailed thing to come to pass. The only Christians I have ever met who claimed to speak in tongues were babblers who chaotically chanted devil-speech. And the only Christians I have ever met who claimed to prophecy, only prophecied nonsensical and untestable blabber such as 'Oooh, the Lord is showing me he will do a great work in the nation. Ooooh yes, a gret work. Specifically he will do something great with the politicians! Yes, he is clearly telling me there will be a great political change... ooh, Hallelujah! The Lord says he will change the nation''. Just nonesense like that. So where are all the Christians who possess the actual Biblical gifts? I'm seriously open to be schooled on this, I just don't understand how the gifts could still be in place, yet nobody has them...

@obcane3072 6 ай бұрын

Paul couldn't heal himself towards the end of his life but the Church Fathers could?

@fouzyraphael2100 6 ай бұрын

@@obcane3072 Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertulian, Origen, Novation, the Didache and much more I can still add. If we're sincere, we should consider the evidence of documented Christian history: Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Ch XI, 160AD, “Others, again, try to set at nought the gift of the Spirit, which in the latter times has been poured out upon the human race, by the good pleasure of the Father. For they do not admit that aspect presented by John’s Gospel, in which the Lord promised that He would send the Paraclete. Rather, they set aside at once both the Gospel and the prophetic Spirit. Wretched men indeed! They wish to be pseudo-prophets, but they set aside the gift of prophecy from the church. . . . We must conclude, moreover, that these men cannot admit the apostle Paul either. For, in his Epistle to the Corinthians, he speaks expressly of prophetic gifts, and recognizes men and women prophesying in the church.” (7) Irenaeus was the 3rd generation after the apostles. Apostle John > Polycarp > Irenaeus The prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you should understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E) Daily some are becoming disciples in the name of Christ,.. . who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worth. These are illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God. Justin Martyr (c. 160) It was necessary that such gifts would cease from you [Jews] and . . . would again, as had been predicted, become gifts which, from the grace of His Spirit's power, He would impart to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy of it. .. . Now, it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E) Those who are truly His disciples, receiving grace from Him,.. . perform [works] in His name, in order to promote the welfare of others, according to the gift that each one has received from Him. Some truly and certainly cast out devils. The result is that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come. They see visions, and they utter prophetic expressions. Still others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and the sick are made whole. What is more, as I have said, even the dead have been raised up and remained among us for many years. What more can I say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them. For, just as she has received without charge from God, so does she minister without charge. Nor does she perform anything by means of angelic invocations, incantations, or any other wicked curious art.... Calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has worked miracles for the benefit of mankind, and not to lead them into error. The name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits. It cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe on Him. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W) For this reason, the apostle declares, "We speak wisdom among those who are perfect," calling those persons "perfect" who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he himself also used to speak. In like manner, we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.531. "The manifestation of the Spirit is given for our profit. To one is given the word of wisdom by the Spirit. To another, the word of knowledge." . . . Such being the case, the prophets are perfect in prophecy; the righteous, in righteousness; the martyrs, in confession; and others, in preaching. It is not that they are not sharers in the common virtues. Rather, they are proficient in those to which they are appointed. .. . Each has his own proper gift of God-one in one way, another in another. But the apostles were perfected in all. If you choose to look, you will find in their acts and writings knowledge, life, preaching, righteousness, purity, an prophecy. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, L· 2.434. What is nobler than to tread under foot the gods of the nations, to exorcise evil spirits, to perform cures, to seek divine revelations, an to live to God? These are the pleasures-the-· are the spectacles-that befit Christian mer. Tertullian(c. 197, W), 3.91. [If the church were in error, as the Gnostic claim,] during the interval, so many thousand were wrongly baptized; so many works of fait: were wrongly wrought; so many miraculous gifts and so many spiritual endowments wer. wrongly set in operation. Tertullian (c. 191, Wj 3.256.) The name of Jesus can still remove distractions from the minds of men, expel demons, and also take away diseases. Furthermore, it produces a marvelous meekness of spirit and a complete change of character. Origen (c. 248, E), 4.427 This is He who places prophets in the church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healing, does wonderful works, offers discernment of spirits...orders and arranges whatever other gift there are of the charismata. Novatian (c. 235, W). Even the Didache talks about prophets in the church

@TheMannering 6 ай бұрын

@mikaelpetersen3331 keep searching and you will find. The gifts need a humble heart.

@fouzyraphael2100 6 ай бұрын

@mikaelpetersen3331 google the 1968 90year old woman from norway prophecy scribed by Emmanuel Minos. Basically has all been fulfilled. There are many like this. We can't dismiss the genuine because of the counterfeit

@glennpesti6519 6 ай бұрын

Amen, we miss you, Micheal

@robertcain3426 5 ай бұрын

Yes, perfectly said by Mr Heiser. Also, the five gifts of apostles, evangelists, teachers, prophets and pastors were for the building up of the church. But now saying there are only three out of the five left in operation is, to me, unscriptual and absurd.

@Kay-br7by 4 ай бұрын

Ikr like where did the remaining two go?

@chrissyuy 6 ай бұрын

My almost entire adult life was with a Dispensational Church which taught the passage as “when that which is perfect is come” is a reference to Christ’s coming to gather the believers (the rapture). I’ve since moved away from Dispensationalism.

@andyk2218 6 ай бұрын

I too was into dispensationalism, even the hyper-dispensationalism under EW Bullinger's teaching, a wonderful brother in Christ, he wrote many books, a couple I still find helpful, but nothing of the dispensational doctrines.

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

Ummm 🤔 just saying without "dispensationalism" there is no salvation and you are just a bad Jew. Kinda easy to believe those teachings 200 years ago maybe, but 1948 kinda shot that idea in the foot

@bugslayerprime7674 6 ай бұрын

How long has Dispensationalism been around? Were Christians saved before then?

@brianj5495 6 ай бұрын

@@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 Your whole statement is an assumption and a logical fallacy. You also assume that what is over there in the middle east is true biblical Israel. It is not. So your base for a dispensational time frame is wrong.

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

@@brianj5495 uhhh yeah, the land of Canaan. Ie Judea ie israel. That's where it is. So how about you go ahead and explain whatever crackpot idea you have?

@TroyStevens430 4 ай бұрын

Just had a dream the other day about Mike. Really neat how God continues to use him as a (positive) symbol in my dreams. He was used mightily by God to impact the faith of many.

@chrisalt971 6 ай бұрын

Hi. I just found this man’s videos. I get from the comments that he unfortunately passed away. Does anyone know other people who have similar teachings? Please share with me. As for Dr. Heiser rest in peace 🙏 thank God for you.

@joechambers7816 6 ай бұрын

I will always be in Dr Heisers debt for taking my understanding of theology to higher level. I am sad he left us too soon, but thankful he has taken his place in the council. I look forward to joining him someday

@PavelMosko 6 ай бұрын

Well, I'm glad they are releasing these videos made in the last few months of his life. I was not aware he passed or was battling cancer until two months ago, an apologist I watch mentioned it off hand in one of his presentations.

@skepticalfaith5201 6 ай бұрын

I have heard that miracles are much more commonplace in non-western cultures where a) their culture is much more attuned to the spiritual (due to animism, etc.) as well as b) they don’t make a big deal about them. Seems like westerners are too self-sufficient and secular to truly trust in God for his provision. Edit: and most churches being planted overseas are Assembly of God and the like.

@mrvax2 6 ай бұрын

Love to hear from Dr.Mike. It will never get old.

@ChrisGarcia. 6 ай бұрын

That’s good stuff

@lukyguy1240 6 ай бұрын

Thank you for uploading this.

@Halo9K 6 ай бұрын

The main problem with 1Cor13:10 is that τελιόs is translated as perfect or complete. The problem with either of those is that they don’t fit with the context of the letter. The whole problem with the Cirinthian church is immaturity. What Paul is really saying is that when maturity comes then the immaturity will be gone. What is the maturity? Faith, hope and love and the greatest of those us love. Love of one another is what it means to follow Christ as His body. The pride and arrogance of the Corithians led to their boasting of their gifts, divisions and ’preacheritus’. Loving one another is the solution for church issues that cause problems within. Maturity in Christ ought to be our goal as Christians.

@Isaiah53-FL 6 ай бұрын

Genuinely curious..is there any frequency with which miraculous acta were supposed to happen? The bible seems pretty clear that we should be able to heal etc but these events are exceedingly rare. I dont think that implies cessationism but it seems like continunatiomism has a weak argument too

@mateusbandeira9017 6 ай бұрын

Possibilities: 1. These kinds of things happen more in missionary camps because of the 'need for wonders' 2. Given the circumstances of easy communication that we have today, God just doesn't want to make anybody some kind of super hero. Remember that Jesus himself told some of his 'patients' not to shout to the world about their cure. 3. It's undoubtful that for miracles to happen you need faith. We are probably living in the ending end times, those who Jesus said he would not find faith when he comes around. 4. We have lots of advances on scientific knowledge, God doesn't want to compete with that, not that He could not win, but probably He's letting mankind be more and more astray and only giving signs to those who really want to

@Isaiah53-FL 6 ай бұрын

@@mateusbandeira9017 thank you. Which of the 4 do you lean towards?

@theeternalsbeliever1779 6 ай бұрын

No, it just means the faith of a lot of "Christians" is actually dead and worthless, no more living or valuable than the kind of nonexistent faith the disciples had before their conversion. It takes living, active faith to heal. Furthermore, it is _God_ who does the actual healing. What it really proves is that God isn't any more real to a lot of "Christians" than He is to atheists.

@TheSeeking2know 6 ай бұрын

Excellent points and food for thought indeed!

@br.m 6 ай бұрын

Day and night.

@xXdsideXx 3 ай бұрын

To argue against the legalists and the sinner. THE STRAIT AND NARROW PATH. I have a lot of respect for this teaching. At least in this video it definintely seems this man was about the truth and not being overbearing or overrelaxed about the holiness of God and what He expects of us. If anyone reads this and can tell me of some other people that are alive today around 2024 that have this same understanding i would greatly appreciate them pointing a finger to those channels or websites. I agree with what he seems to be saying right now, there aren't gifts like those "churches" say they have but that also doesn't mean they're gone. I wish i could find like minded people to discuss this with. Or simply just rejoice in Jesus and what is going on. God bless those of you that are out there.

@seventhunder777 6 ай бұрын

Thank you Dr Heizer, RIP

@MoStBlEsSeD 4 ай бұрын

He is up with the divine council now rest in peace sir ... GOD bless

@ButGOD-Eph2.1-10 6 ай бұрын

Anyone with a link to his full teaching on this subject please & thank you

@gianni206 6 ай бұрын

even in death his videos still got the sick thumbnails- rest in peace King

@HerculezMulligan 6 ай бұрын

Why would 1 Co 13:10 mean something like, “knowledge will disappear”? I imagine the writer is talking about “knowledge,” as we currently understand (partial knowledge) which is not the “complete knowledge” that we will possess at the resurrection; (when perfection comes 1 Co 15:42-54).

@ghostownaproach 6 ай бұрын

Paul clarifies what he means by "that which is perfect coming" by saying that then we will know even as we are known and see face to face the things that now we see as if looking in a mirror with the lights off. Nothing to do with the Bible being finished or not. As long as we are here as mortal beings, we need all the spiritual gifts. Satan counterfeits that which is genuine and valuable. Just as there's no counterfeit $3 bills because there are no genuine versions and they are not valuable enough to bother with.

@mikaelpetersen3331 6 ай бұрын

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

Good questions. But here's your answers, or atleast some of them. 1 there are not many actual "Christians", just a lotta people in church. Big difference. 2. They generally don't even know what speaking in tongues actually is. (And it actually happens in multiple different ways, someone prophesying is also speaking in tongues as those are the words of the lord rather than your own. Doesn't matter what language it's in. That's more of just a practical thing that would only take place if necessary, and it's not very necessary today with Google translate on your phone lol. People who have speech problems being able to go up on stage and give a sermon perfectly is also speaking in tongues. (people babbling random Hebrew words they learned is not speaking in tongues lol)

@veganminimalistpastor 6 ай бұрын

I have a friend named Alex who in a prayer meeting began speaking in tongues and a lady across the room walked up to him and said “where did you learn Romanian?” I also have multiple friends who walk up to people and begin prophesying to them with unreal specificity. Stuff like “you got in a car accident when you were seventeen and now you have five discs in your back that are out because of it. Oh, and are you also dealing with insomnia?” (That one happened yesterday, and it was 100% true) One time my pastor was sitting at his desk and he felt like he was supposed to be working on his book that he was writing, but then he began to talk himself out of it and decided to work on something else. At that exact moment, a friend of mine named Jason calls him and says “I was praying for you just now and I see a picture of you sitting at your desk debating about whether to obey God or not.” One more story: I was leading a devotional once and I stopped in the middle of it and said “Someone here hurt their neck exactly 7 hours ago, who is it?” One guy raised his hand because he twisted his neck weird while doing physical labor and it was exactly 7 hours prior, so we prayed for him and he was instantly healed at that moment. From what I’ve studied and experienced about miracles, you only see miracles when you believe that God wants to do it. The reason you see tons and tons of miracles in third world nations and not so much in places like America is not that it’s not possible here in the states, but cessationism doesn’t really exist over there, and the Christians just expect that when they ask God for miracles, they receive what they ask for.

@YophiSmith 6 ай бұрын

Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t make it untrue. A brother of mine was doing this “devil chanting” babble as you say, but a woman heard her own language and thanked him for the prayer. We also, at my church, pray and interpret. Don’t give up on spiritual gifts my friend. God is even more active today with them then in Acts

@SDsc0rch 6 ай бұрын

here's the deal...... just be a believer grow up in the country - rural environment have very little to no contact with the greater society and culture live life love God Read the Bible experience trouble - life - challenges - needs learn God.... FROM GOD and you'll see....... God never "ceased" doing anything God is God God does as He will the same yesterday today and tomorrow many miracles, answered prayer, prophecies spoken (and over a lifetime fulfilled), lessons given (supernaturally), etc etc etc these discussions among "Christians" amuse me

@Sraye 6 ай бұрын

so you're implying people born into an urban city are doomed to never know God?

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

@@Sraye it definitely hurts their chances, but could push them into that direction under the right circumstances as well.

@skepticalfaith5201 6 ай бұрын

I was saved in a Charismatic Episcopal church so I was exposed to the gifts as a young Christian. I never believed speaking in tongues was a necessary part of being filled with the Spirit, but didn’t doubt it was real. I never read an biblical interpretation of cessationism (didn’t call it that back then) that I felt was valid. And most of their arguments against the gifts were about clear extremism - Jesus’s face in toast sort of nonsense. One week at our Prayer & Praise meeting, I started feeling left out when they all started speaking in tongues. So I tried babbling some phrases, but then was convicted that I was faking it. And God spoke to me and said “That’s right. That’s what everyone else is doing”. 😮 However, I didn’t stop believing in the gifts and soon afterward another brother spoke a prophecy in tongues and God blessed me with the interpretation. So God directly showed me the fakery of the pentecostal movement as well as the reality of the spiritual gifts! All glory to Him!

@YophiSmith 6 ай бұрын

🤔 God told you that EVERYONE there was faking? This happened during an experience of YOU feeling guilty for faking tongues?

@exceptionaldoc9088 4 ай бұрын

Well not everything in the charismatic movement is fake, that's a huge assumption my friend. We Do admitn their are some extremes but don't throw out the baby with the water

@YophiSmith 4 ай бұрын

@@exceptionaldoc9088 Yeah, that’s why I questioned God’s message to him. For God to say that EVERYONE there was faking? And to say God showed the fakery of the ENTIRE Pentecostal movement? I’d be a bit skeptical of that. It’s not exactly scriptural

@DelicueMusic 6 ай бұрын

Cessationism isn't a scriptural argument. It's really just based on human experiences and willingness to question anything unfamiliar to us.

@j.m.4858 6 ай бұрын

Awesome 😎

@risingstorm1 6 ай бұрын

Thank you….

@johnrambo9104 6 ай бұрын

I think the "perfect" that was to come, the one that will exist after the signs for the Jews ceased, is FAITH. That which is perfect is faith, not signs and wonders and believing by what miracles you see, but FAITH.

@jude1337 2 ай бұрын

Pentecostal church history acknowledges that tongues has ceased but claim God was going to restore it. And their cult is the manifestation of God restoring it. Paul condemned women from doing it yet today it’s women that lead make that make sense.

@chadmeidl1140 6 ай бұрын

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is *perfect is come,* then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then *face to face:* *now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.* Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, *the hope of glory:* 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present *every man perfect in Christ Jesus:* 2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, *with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,* are *changed into the same image from glory to glory,* even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, *then shall ye also appear with him in glory.* 1 Cor. 15:49-53 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

@Wraiths_and_Wreckage 5 ай бұрын

I think most of the signs were there to kickstart things, just like miracles kickstarted Israel. The sea didn't part every day. There was no need. Every so often the need arises again. This stuff isn't there so we can feel spiritual or special, but to grow the kingdom.

@heavensarmiesmarc 6 ай бұрын

❤

@2timothy23 6 ай бұрын

I've heard this explanation before and can see a case for it. But here's the thing, if we take it to mean the age to come, then the three things in 1 Corinthians 13:8 would have to be still in operation. And if so, then there still has to be a guideline of how we know tongues, prophecy, and knowledge is from God for the purposes of God. If the canon of scripture is not what is perfect, then it's easy for others to say they can get a fresh word from the Lord or their own version of tongues without checking it against the scriptures (Acts 17:11). If the scriptures aren't complete, then why wouldn't someone get further revelation from God? So if the sign gifts are still possibly going on today, then by what gauge do you measure if it is legitimate or not if the canon is open?

@BzudemE 6 ай бұрын

To me the New Creation explanation makes a lot of sense!

@dominiclapinta8537 6 ай бұрын

I've come from good charismatic pentecostal church experience..I can tell you personally, that it is really just a return to original intent. The belief that the ministry of the Holy Ghost, is for all generations. Everybody points out mostly only the counterfeits and erroring that folk have fallen into, as if it is primary pentecostal charismatic thing, but every portion which makes up the church, even since it's founding by people who received and were filled with the Holy Ghost, there were heresies and errors that had crept in. The worst kinds are that which counterfeit the Gospel so that people believe on something other than Only Jesus. People being filled with the Holy Ghost and miracles, were not the problem that turned people away and caused them to fall from grace. The main problem was those who tried to turn people back to Judaism as a means for salvation. In the west primarily, we have systematic theology/Calvinism, and it's influence, strongly on the culture. No longer is it that God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son..it's not, "for God so loved the elect in the world, that He gave His Only Son". This is against the Gospel message.

@vanthawng154 6 ай бұрын

❤❤❤

@Wraiths_and_Wreckage 5 ай бұрын

I just wish tongues would show up as the Pentecost miracle - being able to speak in a language you never learned so you can tell someone about Christ, not as a party trick.

@ccchhhrrriiisss100 6 ай бұрын

It's baffling to me that someone can read I Corinthians 13:10 and believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased with the creation of the Word of God. It's obviously not what the passage is saying.

@gandalfthegamer4067 6 ай бұрын

A story from the book of 1 Kings, where a prophet by the name of Elijah when he beheld 400 false prophets of the false object of worship called Baal said to them if you think you're God to be the answer then assemble yourselves and call me fire down from heaven; Elijah said to them likewise shall I do the same as the story goes the 400 false prophets of the false being made themselves a bunch of ruckus calling out to the lie they believed. Elijah surely used scripture from the word of God the Old Testament or Old Covenant or Agreement and fire did fall from heaven. The more you get right about God the more he shows up. God is a spirit those that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 Don't just have faith, have faith in God, and his word. There is surely a type of extreme unpleasantness already in the Earth, have you seen it, are you delivered from it? Job 38:17 "Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?" Job 38:33 "33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?" As a child, I would have dreams in be in many nightmares where underground tentacle monsters could sense my slightest movement and impel me, wars, dreams of persecution, the grim Reaper, things would get wild. I remember calling on the Old Testament name of God Jehovah, and I remember things did not end well for me when I was being assaulted by a witch. However, ever since I was a child the name of Jesus has never failed me, when I began to call on his name Even recently, a spider demon with a human face around the size a 42" TV was crawling on my wall when I awoke from my sleep. I spoke the name of Jesus quite a few times and I attained Mercy unto myself, for that because Jesus has the authority for this reason. John 3:35 " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." 1 John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." I believe that God cares for his creation and doesn't want to lose them, because I believed in Jesus and had the humility to honor his name many times throughout my life. I attained mercy through the New Covenant, agreement, or Testament. Only parts of the old still apply. The old prepared place for the New. I believe Love is many things, and is doing many things read 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (KJV) and study the language of the time (Middle English), saying an agreement to do some things all the time, and some things so long as it is not provoked which is not easily accomplished. Look at the Greek interlinear and see what to it says. Love is kind while not provoked and is out to to preserve and protect you not always for your short-term satiation but your long-term health, wealth, and viability. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:14 "And the Word:λόγος(in ancient Greek) message, expression of God's ideas), was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." For if I read James 1:5 (KJV), do not leave out James 1:6,7, and 8 (KJV), and while we at it live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. If there are 18000+ religions in the world I know to whom I say go to save me trouble, the name and the ideas that I will confess as Lord to be serving of and to call my friend. Proverbs 4:19 “The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.” A concept of the word is the idea that is behind it or what should pop into your head by what the author is meaning. If you do not have the idea of the word correct you have a misconception and it changes the whole story. Read the KJV, pray for wisdom, pray without ceasing: don't go a day without it. Genesis 18:14 "14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son." El Shaddai, is one of God's names: meaning, the Almighty. The deductions you can make with your eyes are not as important to me as the decisions you can make with your heart. I believe God set the stage before we got to the play. God putting bones in the ground isn't him being deceptive, he wants to know if we will be presumptuous. Proverbs 3:35 "The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools."

@spitfirered 6 ай бұрын

❤❤💯💯🙋‍♀🙋‍♀🙋‍♂🙋‍♂

@jamesbarringer2737 6 ай бұрын

I always thought Corinthians 13 was self-referential within the Bible - I.e. the Bible was discussing the limitations on knowledge we face now - inlcluding the scripture, not excepting it.

@holydissolution85 6 ай бұрын

There are plenty of reports of Holy Spirit translating the talk between greek Orthodox elders & people who normaly do not understand their language in recent times ( St. Paisios, St. Porphyrios ) Charismatic movement is not the same...

@wojtek4331 6 ай бұрын

From what kind of sources do you know it? Could you give any links? Things like miraculous speech as we can see in modern churches for me looks like fake babble.

@holydissolution85 6 ай бұрын

@@wojtek4331 There are several books about St. Paisios..., but I think you can even find this in videos on youtube about his life... One example I remember distinctly is german lady oncologist who met him when he was on one of his trips outside Mt.Athos..she asked him for medical advice & he didn't speak german & she didn't speak greek, they were perfectly able to understand each other throughout lenghty ccnversation.To her it sounded like he was speaking german & when someone who was listening to them talking in two languages asked elder Paisios how come they were able to understand each other., he waved his hand and smiled : " It's the Holy Spirit doing it" , like it's not a big deal... Like Universal Translator in Star Trek 😆 . Instantaneous translation. That sounds more akin to what we read in Acts of the Apostles. There are numerous examples like that with other orthodox monks. ( Also clairvoyancy, healing, prophecies )

@vladimircar 6 ай бұрын

@@wojtek4331I see youtube didn't register my answer to you, so here's me from another account... There are several books ( and many videos on youtube ) about life of St.Paisios. I read one : " Gurus, Young man and Elder Paisios" this summer. Most notable example I remember concerning this: In 70s, during one of his trips outside Mt.Athos, St.Paisios got into lenghty conversation with german lady oncologist who traveled to Greece to meet him and wanted his advice. ( Him & Porphyrios are most popular of greek orthodox monks exhibiting miraculous powers in twentieth century, so word got around to her and she was an open minded sort ) So, people in their entourage could hear them talking, each in his own language ( german & greek ) and they perfectly understood each other. Afterwards, she claimed the she heard him speaking to her in perfect german. When asked about it, St. Paisios waved his hand like it's not a big deal, smiled and said : " It's the Holy Spirit doing it " So I guess it works similar to Universal Translator in Star Trek (😁) and I find this description similar to what we read in The Acts of the Apostles...

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

I mean the problem with it is simply that it's wrong lol. Now there are points they are likely trying to explain but failing to do so accurately.

@introvertincognito4518 6 ай бұрын

Well if Christians can heal dying kids they have some explaining to do.

@ccchhhrrriiisss100 6 ай бұрын

That's a fallacy of logic. Since you don't see it happening, you declare all spiritual gifts to have ceased. This makes it seem as though you fancy yourself as omniscient (seeing all Christians) and concluding that healings never happen OR concluding that all of the gifts have ceased for one reason or another.

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

Well with faith like that even Jesus could not heal you. How you expect someone else can?

@introvertincognito4518 6 ай бұрын

@@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 no friend, that isn't faith. You are talking about a continuing, sustainable, repeatable gift, a power. Why do Pentecostals die of sickness? If the gifts are still among us why are people dying? Heal them. There are millions of Christians in the U.S. alone. Why are we not seeing and hearing every day about people with the gift? Don't you think that would increase believers immensely? Are mistaking "gifts" for God's chosen healings based on prayers? That's not "a Pentecostal gift." A Pentecostal gift is repeatable.

@introvertincognito4518 6 ай бұрын

@@ccchhhrrriiisss100 you use of the word logic is sound but your context isn't. With this age of information and 24/7 news cycles we would see it. We'd see healings alllll over the world by the thousands if not millions. A little over 2 billion Christians across the globe and you are telling me it's naive to say if we aren't seeing it it isn't there? If the gifts still were present we would see them A LOT. There are under 4000 great white sharks globally and we see them. And You do know that this argument wasn't a thing until early 1900s right? It didn't take if til the 60s and was fed by a pastor Dennis Bennet. Churches that were on the decline noticed that with a little "Charisma" their numbers AND DONATIONS grew.

@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 6 ай бұрын

@@introvertincognito4518 not anytime ever were any "gifts" as you are describing. So that would be a strawman argument on top of whining and complaining about "life" when that isn't the gift, dying isn't exactly a bad thing. Why insist that it is?

@AidenRKrone Ай бұрын

Cessationists turn the Holy Ghost - and, by extension, the Triune God - into an impotent loser who isn't able to make Himself known to the very people He indwells. In the Old Covenant, God resided in the physical Holy of Holies of the Temple. In the New Covenant, God, in the Person of the Holy Ghost, dwells inside each and every believer. If God was active while He resided in the Temple, and if each individual believer's body is a temple, why would God not also be active in that type of temple? Conceptually and typologically, it doesn't make any sense. Plus, if you've ever experienced a genuine case of spiritual gifts manifesting themselves (not the chicanery we see in the Charismatic movement), you'll be hard-pressed to deny that the gifts are still active today.