The Problem with Diversity Discourse in Fantasy

[@LoreGeist]

What would you change about the way fantasy is handling diversity today?

[@presleybaldwin3756]

There's a lot to change but it all starts with in-world consistency and the authors skill in writing. Most examples of "diversity" lack both which is where many of the issues surrounding the subject begin. There's too many franchises I've seen massacred in the name of social justice, and many of those examples could have worked well if the activists behind the works bothered to study writing. Star Wars is a great example. Fin was the main focus but Kennedy changed the focus character to Rey since she wanted to change the core audience from male to female. Also, "cis-gender" is a false concept, same goes for "diversity and inclusion".

[@Nockgun]

not making "diverse" characters single trait about their race or sexuality as their whole personality, and not make them always absolved

[@TreyStation64]

@@LoreGeist #1, don't put black people into a story just to tick off a box. Give them respect.

[@TreyStation64]

@@presleybaldwin3756 yeah, they're constantly trying to force this agenda down our throats.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

the problem is not diversity but over crowded of ideas. They lost the story that is arcane work so much because they are not Warhammer with strict rules of character. If people will divert everything that is not diverse in linear pattern. It's general in collective pattern. The problem in fantasy now is instead of making story they just tilting the characters morality just to create changes instead creating a pattern that can different but still recognizable as part of theme. I don't like black elves. But I would like to see black as their own. Unless the race is entirely not portray as white in lore .

[@SuburbanFox]

Diversity is fine as long as it makes sense. If we have a big city that's a major trade hub on the border of some equatorial region then it makes sense that people "of colour" might travel to that city. What doesn't make sense is for an isolated village in the middle of Frostenheim the Nordic Kindgom of Snow, that hardly anyone travels to, to be full of diverse people. Also, if a character "of colour" meets the main hero and indicates that he's travelled from some distant land that the hero may not know of, that makes sense, and also helps with the lore. But such a person being born and raised in the whitest area ever with no explanation doesn't. We shouldn't pretend that ethnicity is meaningless and isn't even remotely defined by climate or genetics, because there's a reason why people in some regions have different skin tones. But we can use diversity to expand on the lore simply by having reasons for people of other ethnicities to be in these places.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah. That’s pretty much it. Also, if the author wants to add a person “of color” in their snow village and justify it with some plot reason, make sure to explore how this person being different is perceived as well. It won’t be magically treated as natural as well because a reason for this village to have today’s standards of how to handle diversity wasn’t established

[@shizuwolf]

So basically, avoid tokenism

[@GoranXII]

“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because-what with trolls and dwarfs and so on-speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.” Terry Pratchett, _Witches Abroad_

[@LoreGeist]

What I get from this is people will always find a way to define an “other” as a way to define their own identity

[@GoranXII]

@@LoreGeist True. But it's notable that Pratchett has done diversity well, by shifting the story to a location where a character with that skin colour is prevalent.

[@TreyStation64]

As a fantasy writer myself, I just feel that black people have a presence in epic fantasy, but it shouldn't be a political agenda. Just have black characters, in my opinion.

[@happybee1441]

It's hard when they've been thrown around by the political system. Always having something taken from them.

[@nurailidepaepe2783]

there's nothing wrong with political themes in books. it might not be your thing, but to mr it's actually more interesting if a fantasy book has real world themes like politics

[@atisnicholson1844]

​@@nurailidepaepe2783 If you put black people opression or transgender acceptation into fantasy, you are not making fantasy with diversity, you are simply making propaganda in fantasy setting

[@DesertRat1997]

​@@nurailidepaepe2783I agree. It's also worth noting that every story has some form of political influence. Even a story as simple as "the hero defeats the villain" begs the question: what is a hero? Do they represent a set of societal virtues? Or are they simply the hero because they oppose the villain? What makes that person a villain? Are they a fascist? An anarchist? What do they do which needs to be stopped?

[@LoreGeist]

I agree, everything is political to some extent. Like you said, the notion of what a villain and a hero are is often a matter of propaganda and perception

[@shyzunk]

The notion that needs to die is that diversity is automatically positive, or even necessary. A story exploring the dynamics of purely male orc warrior tribes can be just as engaging as a cosmopolitan society with dwarfs and elves living together. Calling the orcish story "diverse", just because you didn't see that many, because it changes who gets to be protagonist, makes no sense. Anything new could then be described as diverse, while a stale copycat containing a medieval magical version of modern day melting pot societies could also be considered diverse, but for the completely opposite reason. It becomes the new norm, but it contains the modern notion that everyone needs to be "represented". The goal should be to focus less on whether or not such modern ideas exist in a story, and more on what makes sense for a character and how to make a story emotionally impactful and internally consistent.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

the problem is how activist destroy the word diverse. Everything is diverse even just two set models. But how they see diversity is one for all | all for one and that is what is woke. If activist saying she/he/etc it is then that is not diversity but narcissism. This people just corrupt things just to justify their beliefs. Thinking savior and ruler dictator make things woke. Forcing everyone to change to something they not are. This people who incredibly obsessed for change make things woke. If a story so much change from original idea that is woke is.

[@LoreGeist]

That’s what I care about as well. A well structured story. Diversity for me is positive when the genre gets access to other points of view, it’s just broadens the possibilities

[@Jamhael1]

@@shyzunk YES! ALL YES! Finally someone gets it! On the Orcs, I once took the arts presented, and I explained as such: Orcs are, definitelly, not necessarily a warrior species, but a SURVIVALIST species, and as such, suffered enviromental pressures and adapted as such, even affecting their culture and society. In this case, Orcs have a strange dichothomy, were males are soldiers and field officers, but females are logisticians and strategists - in other words, male Orcs are all "in the field", focused in imediate battlefield tactical application, while female Orcs are the "grand strategy" thinkers. Combined to their harsh desertic/savannah enviroment, this led to a cultural acceptance of showing their bodies out of battlefield situations, with Orc males developing an art form mixing scarification and tattoos, with each scar gained in battle "signed" with a tattoo telling the battle, who caused it, and how this was done, with the greater social and military status going to male Orcs with the greater amount of scars caused by important adversaries. Female Orcs, however, while no less proficient then males in combat, thanks to their status as logisticians and strategists, consider a sign of status to exhibit their bodies - to which they do not tattoo, but paint it with henna - without protection so they can show the LACK of scars to exhibit the loyalty and strength of the males in their tribe, and the intelligence and cunning of their females. Thanks also to their societal expectations of being priestess of the god(dess) of war, their presence is highly respected and their advice carries a great weight. However, a female Orc who proves to be incompetent in her duties are simply removed from her position, and another installed in her place, until the removed Orc can prove herself by dint of merit. Male Orcs who do not fit the standards of combat prowess are relegated to the ranks of labourers, teachers (in case of reaching old age) or executed in case of gross negligence and/or failure. What do you think?

[@Gr3asyPopcorn]

I'm currently trying to write a fantasy series and what I've done is just actually make diverse nations like we see in the real world. People travel and meet new people all the time. Those people have lives of their own and each nation has its own goals. Plain and simple. I'm not just forcing certain kinds of people where they don't make sense for diversity's sake. Instead, I'm trying to make real people and explore REAL cultural exchange.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, you’re doing a necessary which is giving worldbuilding justifications as to why this diversity exists (in your case, because the scope of the world is very broad)

[@Redbeardblondie]

Diversity as DEI standards define it is not always necessary, and is more likely to lead to checklist-style content than it is to lead to a more free and open and diverse world. E.G. Moana is very ethnically and religiously homogenous, but it is an excellent story with authentic and well-rounded characters.

[@LoreGeist]

Exactly… and it’s the natural way to do it because there are worldbuilding justifications for everybody to be Polynesian

[@quinnmartensbobbitt3704]

As a personal perspective, its not an argument over whether diversity is okay in fantasy or not- its about representation of that diversity. People want diversity in their universes- any world that had species diverge and evolve separately is going to have “diversity”. The issue is how that diversity appears in media. Examples of good representations- the Witcher’s Continent, divided up among dozens of small nations and half a dozen intelligent species, each of which further divides into various subgroups. Elves are represented by the Aen Aelle, the Aen Seidhe, the Dryads and the Black Seidhe, which are now further divided into the Aen Seidhe of Dol Blathanna, and the Northern Elves, among others. They have culture and heritage distinct from each other, and distinct appearances that separate them from each other. The humans have the Northern Kingdoms and Nilfgaard, each unique and distinct in culture and personal beliefs, but also in appearance- Aedirneans are usually handsome and fair with red hair or dusty brown, and have a strong monarchy that leads its people toward independence and prosperity; while Nilfgaardians have dark hair and thick accents derived from Elder Speech, and tend to have a much more structured and orderly society based on imperialistic standards. There are the Zerikaneans, who are like a mix of Arab and African culture, with striped horses and a female-led society, most commonly depicted with dark skin and hair, and ferocious personalities. The Elder Scrolls, divided amongst so many diverse groups and cultures its hard to keep track, from the desert-born and sea-forged Redguards descended from the ancient warrior-people Yokudans, to the elven-descended pale-skinned Bretons with their ancestral magick, to the Celtic-Scandinavian-esque Nords hailing from far Skyrim, descended from the godlike Atmorans of old. There are Argonians, born into a cast system that permits growth and adaptation in one’s role, while also gaining wisdom and guidance and strength from the ancient and godlike Hist-trees of Black Marsh. Elves are so diverse that there are even subspecies of them that we still haven't seen in the games yet, each possessing immense magick but so deeply unique that one would actually have an easy time differentiating an Altmer from a Chimer and a Chimer from a Bosmer! Let’s not even touch on the Khajiit, whose form is chosen by the phases of the moons, ranging from sentient house cats to towering anthro lions with gleaming fur, who may also descend from elves. Or how about Dungeons and Dragons, with its literally hundreds of distinct species and subspecies, each possessing unique talents, abilities and cultures which come decades of built up lore and writing by dozens if not hundreds of writers, artists and game developers. Mind you, each of those universes also has examples of in-built sexually diverse cultures, with laws and rules for people changing their genders, identities and even race over time through magick or dark sciences. Their writers’ worked hard to make those universes inclusive and engaging for any audience, so that it was enjoyable for those coming from any kind of personal background. I mean, the Witcher is a bad example since most of the people we meet in the books are predominantly white, but the Dryads are a female-only species that have more in common with Widow spiders, or the similarly female-led Aen Seidhe and Zarikaneans. I’m just saying, if you’re good at writing, you don’t have to make inclusivity a taxing experience on the viewer/reader/player. You can make it a fun journey of exploration, opening up fun questions for them to theorize over, rather than questioning why a character is dark skinned when they come from a frosty mountaintop where no sunlight ever touches it. Diversity in race, sexual orientation and gender should be something players WANT to enjoy, not HAVE to enjoy. It should be part of the world’s systems and functions and history, just like how ours is built. If a game shows us a dark, gritty, deathly city-scape where people are dying all over the place, and then just throws out a rainbow colored tiger out of nowhere, I feel a bit confused and discombobulated.

[@WilliamLious]

Diversity isn't an issue, the issue is the context in which it's applied. Eg. Tolkien.

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

I’ll tell you what disappointed me as a black fan of fantasy: Peter Jackson whitewashing the Haradrim in his LotR films because he thought it would be _’culturally insensitive!’_ We had that whole monologue from Faramir about how the Haradrim boy he dispatched probably wasn’t evil at heart, but God-forbid the rest of the Haradrim be black like they are in the book. _They’re mercenaries._ Mercenaries with a historical grievance against Gondor. I fail to see how keeping them black is a problem. Heck, it might have encouraged more people to read the book because they saw black people in Middle-Earth/Arda and it might have pricked their interest as to why there were black and brown people were fighting for Sauron… _like it did for me._

[@michaelroy7754]

I want to know more about harrad and Rhun. I know most of them think Saucony is a God but are there any resistance movements? Do people in places know the truth? I think talking would've given us more of them in the 4th era but I could be wrong.

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

@ there’s conjecture about a lot of that material- about whether or not there were resistance movements against Sauron and particularly as to the role of the Blue Wizards in foiling Sauron’s plans in the East. Some say that Alatar and Pallando (the Blue Wizards) resisted Sauron contemporaneously with Gandalf’s efforts in the West. Others have conjectured that Sauron minecrafted them around the time of the Hobbit. The truth is something only Tolkien knows, but it’s fun to research and think about.

[@DragonKing-te9wy]

Ngl, though this could be a stab in the dark, I wonder if Peter Jackson was affrighted of those few loud people who would be offended seeing the Haradrim portrayed with black skin. Again, this is just a stab in the dark, I don't actually know what the theatrical climate was like at that time, as I seldom follow politics for reason of my own sanity.

[@LoreGeist]

I can understand why he didn’t want to take this risk considering the time the adaptations were released

[@stephenfitzgerald9769]

@ true enough. People have a tendency to react reflexively to things that they don’t understand or appreciate. I had the advantage of reading the books first, so I was _expecting_ the Haradrim to be black, because all of Jackson’s other changes had been minor… and I thought those changes improved the story, personally. I can understand that Jackson probably didn’t want the controversy, but I was really looking forward to that…

[@Noperare]

Reminds me the issue of black Angrboda in God of War Ragnarok. The idea of Kratos fighting the Egyptian gods after killing all the Greek gods was very popular in the fandom. This was the perfect chance of exploring cultures of nearby african nations that were also mad at the Egyptians. Instead, Santa Monica choose to go Norse, the whitest people on Earth, then decides to make a Norse Goddess black.

[@beccaknight5763]

I think the biggest issues that many people have with diversity is that many stories that feature heavy diversity are bad. Thus, a lot of people see the writers (often so) are only out to push an agenda at the expense of the story. When a story is done well no one seems to complain that much.For example, Arcane seems to beloved and 2015 Cinderella and Brandy’s Cinderella. I often see complaints when the story is written poorly like the Rings of Power and Netflix’s Witcher. People then begin to associate diversity with poor writing and the creators having ulterior motives. I personally understand there will always be people that are upset if a character does get race swapped. There will be people that get upset that a medieval Europe or Asia etc. inspired fantasy kingdom / land is diverse ( it’s not actual Europe or Asia if it’s in a fantasy land so it shouldn’t matter that much). But I think as long as it makes sense and the writing is good then it’s fine. No one wants to be represented on screen if the representation is awful. Please just create a good story and good characters no matter their background. The goal should just be a good story.

[@LoreGeist]

Pretty much. Rule of thumb is, if the element you are adding to the story adds to the atmosphere, themes, characterisation or plot in a cohesive way, good, otherwise rework it. This applies to diversity as well as any other type of element

[@Jamhael1]

​@@LoreGeist I only see one single exception to this: Shakespeare - you can put the story in other cultures, and it just... FITS!

[@beccaknight5763]

I understand completely. For me if it makes sense to the general story it’s fine. I mean we suspend our disbelief for fiction often, especially when it’s written well. I just always believe prioritizing the story.

[@Jamhael1]

@@beccaknight5763 that is why you must start with a map. Tolkien said this.

[@beccaknight5763]

@@Jamhael1 It doesn’t matter how one starts for me but just produce quality 🤣 lol. Tolkien is the GOAT so I agree. Eventually have a map that has some logic it solves so many issues within the story and can make writing easier too.

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

I guess i can put my experience about diversity in this:" i loved witcher, i hated the series, and the turn off was the way the producers spat diversity into my face..." on the other hand I enjoyed Black panther, for the exact same reasons you mentioned, it was well thought and well presented, the thing is, i am born at 84, yet even i have clear memories about how just carrying a known family name to be from the neighbouring town was enough of a crime to get totally alienated, shoved around and bullied in my own hometown... you cannot make a medieval fantasy verse and then have villages in it which contain more harmonious cultural and racial diverse society than modern day Newyork... it just doesn't make sense... diversity in fantasy is actually a good thing, it opens so much room for more colorful story telling, but the author needs to do their homework, cultures clash first exchange ideas later, people are naturally inclined toward tribalism and prejudice, we are often easier to fear than to investigate, and further you go back in time stronger these rules become, consider this even if you diversify your people... like i have a universe, there are four bloodlines in it, each having few species, the Mankin, my humans, are only one of the four in their own bloodline and then i still have them as black haired race, the blonde hair race, and the black people, but without the time and room for my mankin to spread across the world for hundreds of thousands of years so they can actually genetically diversify i need to find a way to make sense of them alone having these different forms, and i did, via magic, but then , if a mankin sees a different looking mankin he thinks first, if that dude looks like that because da magic and that magic is anything but safe, hell i bash his head first ask questions later, my mankin trust other species of their bloodline easier than trusting a different looking mankin... the point is, diversity is a real thing, we are as diverse of a species as it gets, but, it has to come naturally and well thought, or it will be lip service and hypocrisy, and nobody swallows that, trust me, the audience will notice...

[@LoreGeist]

I pretty much agree with your take

[@suzygirl1843]

@@LoreGeist I didn't realize Tolkien was from South Africa. Now it makes sense. South Africa is 80% black and he was alive around the creation of Apartheid.

[@suzygirl1843]

@@LoreGeist I didn't realize Tolkien was from South Africa. Now it makes sense. South Africa is 80% black and he was alive around the creation of Apartheid and why so many elements about it make me uncomfortable. A lot of literature especially in Western fantasy is quite prejudiced whether it's unintentional or purposeful hence why I prefer East Asian storytelling. I think the West is doing a bit of overcorrecting but it's not natural how they are doing it

[@hope2dust]

Let's all say it together. "DIVERSITY IS A GREAT VEHICLE FOR CONFLICT." I am taking on the daunting task of writing a high fantasy/cosmic horror epic. My world-building not only portrays different cultures, religions, and races, but the prejudices that each group possess very much drive the narrative forward. These petty conflicts are instigated by the actual villains as a distraction to mask their true motivations and goals, because while everyone is squabbling over the trivial things that divide them, the antagonists are making power plays. The core message is to say we shouldn't allow the things that make us different define who we are, but we should instead share our cultures and beliefs and come together to make the world better. That said, there should be melting pots in fantasy settings. A massive port city is going to have a variety of different peoples coming together for commerce. But you wouldn't expect that same level of diversity within a smaller village or secluded island. There should be locations in any setting, let alone fantasy worlds, that won't be melting pots. We are very much a tribal species, and especially in sword and sorcery settings, certain groups of people will be untrusting of other groups of people if there's any shred of realism to be found. Of course, you'll have stories written in ancient Japan or Northern Europe, and you wouldn't expect a lot of diversity in those stories. And that's okay. Not every story is for everyone, nor should authors try to write stories for everyone. Find your audience. But I also wouldn't use that as an excuse to be blind to diversity. Apologies, that went on a bit longer than intended, but this is an important topic that more authors need to be aware of. Diversity should be a tool of any writer's arsenal, but it shouldn't feel forced. It should be a natural part of the world-building. If Group A lives along the equator, they should probably have darker skin tones. If Group B lives in the far north, they should probably be paler due to the lack of sunlight and shorter days. Make your world-building make sense, and let it support diversity naturally.

[@LoreGeist]

Cosmic horror epic? That sounds incredible! Let us know when you’re done 🙌🏼

[@hope2dust]

@LoreGeist 🤞 hopefully it will be. I don't believe anything has ever been written like it, or at least not to this scale. Think of a big sprawling world filled with rich lore and political intrigue like ASoIaF, heavily blended with the cosmic horror of Lovecraft, and dragons the size of Godzilla. Lots of moving parts. Grandiose wars and the larger than life everything that you'd expect from high fantasy. Eldritch horror, supernatural horror, body horror, psychological horror. Existential dread. And the grimmest of dark fantasies. No nonsense. No agendas. This is most certainly not made for a "modern audience." Lulz. Just authentic, compelling storytelling. Whether or not I stick the landing is yet to be seen, but I'm all in and I have the feeling it's going to be something spectacular. Either that or I crash and burn hard. 🤣

[@LoreGeist]

I am huge horror nerd as well, this blend of influences sounds right up my alley. Can’t wait to check it out 👌

[@TheGoldenPhoenix-nm8qe]

I mainly just write what works in the story that I'm telling. I don't normally think about these things and I do appreciate this video.😊

[@MQuinn-eb3zz]

I find it interesting that it is only in the last few hundred years that storytelling had become less diverse. The story of Othello is from the 17th century, the Illiad had Achilles fighting the KIng of the Ethiopians, and at least one viking saga told of a giant, foul mouthed, black viking who drank and fought with the best of them. It is not only great to see a variety of cultures portrayed and elements of their history, religion, and legends used as source material, but it is also well to recognize that historically there has always been an interplay of differing peoples and their differing values competing with and allying themselves.

[@rainbowmothraleo]

@@MQuinn-eb3zz Slavic mythology has a transgender man, an Indian bogatyr and a whole bunch of ultrapowerful warrior women. And the most popular bogatyr is literally a disabled person (though he's healed, which isn't really cool in terms of representation)

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

You are right about what makes diversity work in stories: Diversity in culture, beliefs, backgrounds providing moments of introspection and conflict for both the characters and audience. I have a more complicated take on your view of what makes diversity in modern media fail, though. Tokenism is all but non-existent in modern western media, at least in the sense of stereotypes. You could swap any race/gender/orientation with any other combination and the character would work no worse (but often better) than the one they went with. That is the exact opposite problem. Inclusivity for the sake of inclusivity, which you did briefly touch on in the video, is modern tokenism. If anything, stereotypes would *add* depth to the cookie-cutter can-do-no-wrong characters western media has been producing lately. There is a direct correlation between demographic and nuance that, ironically, became more pronounced in the absence of stereotyping. The more boxes of "straight" "white" "male" a character has, the more nuance and deviation from the "ideal" the character can have. The less of these boxes they tick, the more "perfect" the character is. While one could argue that is still stereotyping, and they would be right, the new stereotype is that minority = collectively one great person, and majority = many awful people, sometimes in their own unique ways. So, tl;dr, "yes and no about the tokenism take." I strongly disagree with the popular notion that Black Panther was a success because it was "diverse." It wasn't. Neither was Lord of the Rings. Neither was Black Myth Wukong. In fact, all of their successes can, in part, be attributed to the fact they were *not* diverse. It is far easier to depict diversity in thought within a monolith than to depict diversity in thought within several different monoliths all in one cohesive story. These three examples are proof of how much strength comes from *rejecting* diversity in stories they do not belong in. How many people would really rather have a single story that is bursting at the seams with diverse cultures and authentic representation, over seven different stories that each flesh out a unique culture, or the relations between a couple of unique cultures, in a truly meaningful way? People crave a diversity in options more than the option of diversity. To end on a hot take, I think stories that cover many different cultures *benefit* from monolithic, or at least near monolithic cultures. The fewer people we see aligned with the "majority opinion" of a culture, the less credence that culture has as even existing in the first place. It takes a single character from that culture to introduce that cultures ideals and values to the audience, and it takes a single character from that culture to disagree with those ideals and values to tell the audience they are not a hive mind. If the "outsiders" get more screen/page time than the "insiders," any value that culture brought to the story is diminished because they are painted as being inherently wrong. That is why we spend more time with the "rebels" in stories where society is wrong, and why we spend more time with the monolith characters when their culture's wisdom is viewed as wise to the protagonist. There is nothing realistic about tearing down a monolith in thought for a society, because that is not how the real world exists. You go to any place on Earth and ask random people on the street what they believe, then go to any other place and ask random people there what they believe, I guarantee you there will be more people who agree with their respective culture than there are outsiders from different cultures who agree with each other. Culture cannot exist unless a majority of people believe their culture is right, which is why we tend to meet more monoliths than outsiders in the real world, even within our own monolithic culture. Thus, minimizing diversity in thought within a culture is vital when making the varying cultures have meaningful weight and impact in the story.

[@LoreGeist]

It was interesting to think about your “monolithic culture” take, but I still think monolithic cultures are lazy writing, unless there is a very specific narrative reason for them. Culture A could be in general more violent than Culture B, but within Culture A there will for sure be many individuals with different degrees of how violent they are, even if they’re still likely to be more violent than Culture B. This is how humans work. This is even how animals work actually. From a writing perspective, if you make people in Culture A have different degrees of violent instincts, you can explore what leads a person to be violent, what do they sacrifice and gain from upholding this cultural tradition, the toll violence takes on their psyche and society. It’s just more interesting than “everyone in culture A is equally violent, deal with it”.

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

@@LoreGeist I believe you are describing what I would consider monolithic society. Legalas is not a 1 for 1 of Galadriel. Many (generic evil race) depict some of them are more violent, more needlessly cruel, more quick to run away, etc. Unless the culture is a literal hive mind, or exists as such to make a statement about a different topic, I cannot think of a good example of a story with a monolithic society that did not have at least some deviations among them. Then again, I do not assume by default a group of people all think and act the same just because I have not been shown an example of someone from that group thinking or behaving differently. I instead assume we are simply not shown unnecessary nuance that would only serve to please a crowd of complainers at the cost of muddying and detracting from the actual moral of the story. Tl;Dr: Nuance for nuance's sake is not a Hallmark of good storytelling. In fact, that is called "bloat," which is a classic example of amateur writing, or a rough draft for more experienced writers.

[@LoFora]

I think writers should do only what feels natural to them. That's how you avoid the feeling of characters being forced into the story.

[@hannahkennelly6961]

Diversity has to be done right, if you write based on any culture during a certain period of time, there probably wont be much diversity. If you write historical fiction, you want to be accurate, not diverse. but I think fantasy gives us an edge, if a creator could create a diverse world without rules of culture! But I still believe if someone wants to adapt a story dont change the design or nationality.

[@suzygirl1843]

It's already too late, Westerners have turned me off. Africans have shifted to the East. A lot of South Africans are now learning Mandarin because we are a part of BRICS and South Africa is the avenue in which outside countries are building the economy of Africa, so far the West built the structure but it will be taken over by the East because Africans prefer their business over the West. I guarantee that Manga will overtake Comics in Africa despite USA importing its content and exhibitions like Comic Con - I saw Africans lining up for Sasuke the Samurai over Western comics.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

I currently making a 12 factions if that is not diverse enough then the people who complain are too demanding in that matter since I can't write real world.

[@xenolithus]

Racism has a place in fantasy if it serve the plot. Diversity, equity, inclusivity or any kind of representation can also be in fantasy, if it serve the plot. The most important thing is how we tell that story. If the story is a hot garbage with mary sue/marty stu characters, those topics will stick out like a sore thumb.

[@suzygirl1843]

Sounds like you're the issue, Bro.

[@LoreGeist]

Racism can be a theme in a history, sure 🤷‍♂️

[@suzygirl1843]

@@LoreGeist Racism is alive and well TODAY

[@jamestipton3342]

As a convert to Catholicism and an aspiring novelist in the American Deep South, I find the matter of writing diversity with my characters as a careful working as the wrong combination of words can direct things in a way that the two polarizing arguments.

[@Jamhael1]

Please, make a fantasy novel using elements of the Southern culture: - Dwarves in the Appalachian mountains, divided by Clans; - Elves with a "southern nobility" style, but with a Tenessee accent; - Halfling farmers who live in communitarian farms, like Amish, but less isolationist; - Clerics that are like the Black Baptist priests, going full "TESTIFY!" whenever they invoke their power; - Paladins/Knights are gunslingers with a Texan drawl; - Louisiana goblins. I don't know why, it just fits...; - and yes, Half-Orc Mexicans;

[@ddavis8988]

I don't think stories or even the talk around stories should be non-political. But i do think its a sin for it to be bland and boring. I welcome the different stories and the different perspectives even if I don't like the story. Im perspnalku tited of the solame old story for 400 years. I go out of my eay to listen to different stories.

[@LoreGeist]

I think everything is political, but people discuss diversity in fantasy with the same polarisation as they are discussing politics overall. With not a lot of wiggle room and nuance. That type of discussion doesn’t advance anything 😅

[@Aewon84]

For my part, one way I'm able to have diversity in my medieval fantasy series is that I have an order called the Anshai, which is inspired by the Jedi. They recruit people from all over the world. One of the foreigners is a black girl who comes from a distant empire that I would describe as Imperial China if it was in subsaharan Africa. I also have two gay leads, an autistic kid and one of the masters is a trans woman. She has a similar type of relationship with one of my gay leads as Dumbledore has with Harry Potter. Edit: I should point out that I'm queer, so I'm not just some straight white guy adding gay characters to tick off boxes.

[@Jamhael1]

If you allow me, an interesting idea for a villain/antagonist: An autistic assassin-for-hire, whose hyperfocus is martial arts, and he is being doing this because he came from a military experiment to create specialized infiltration troops that consisted in selecting a group of children, and put them under the harshest training regime known, and in the end, only he/she survived.

[@LoreGeist]

I’m interested to know in what ways the trans aspects of the mentor informs their character! I’ve seen some trans stories were they give it a very spiritual angle to being trans which is very fascinating to me

[@Jamhael1]

@@LoreGeist how about just take their transexuality as just that: their transexuality - a mere fact of life, with nothing special about it.

[@LoreGeist]

@@Jamhael1 it could be handled in a nonchalant way as well of course. I just enjoy seeing this explored in some stories :)

[@Jamhael1]

@LoreGeist fair enough. One interesting angle is to make a specialized branch of the church formed only by trans people - the reasons could be greatly ranged: from the most noble to the utilitarian, to the distopian, and all in-between. One idea: a version of the "Vestal Virgins", but without the vow of celibacy - they are "virgins" because they do not sire children, not because they do not have sex.

[@FredrikHaugen]

Remember when Kingdom come Deliverance the video game came out and it was criticized for not being diverse. A game set in the beginning of 15th century rural Bohemia, smack middle of Europe. It was diverse. There was Czechs, Germans and Poles. But tell that to an American that that's diverse and they say that they're all the same thing. Yeah, say to a Pole that there's virtually no difference between them and Germans...

[@Kar-Kan]

Tauriel wass token of women in Hobbit, but she wasnt bad elf comparing with most of a rings of power crew. Evangeline Lilly face is very elvish.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah! She was a good character who was fairly fleshed out. I did use her an example for tokenism because the lack of women was a good part of the reason why she was created though

[@wavetactics13]

Using Tauriel as an example of tokenism, that's ... a choice. To push back on the need for consulting with individuals with lived experience, I can't see much use for that unless a person is writing about the real world. I'm writing a story set in my world's equivalent of the Middle East and western Eurasian steppe and will have a similar range of ethnic diversity. Who is going to have the lived experience of a character who spent most of his life on wyvernback subsisting largely off of the roots of a poisonous plant? He's also an orc, which in this setting means he looks almost human but could get hit by a train and walk it off. His culture is ridiculously reckless but has a deep fear of large waterbodies and boats (they can drown as easily as anyone else, and a bucket of water is of more use than a mace against them). Do you see how little my story ties into what someone could consider a lived experience? Also, you should probably include a setting having an inexplicably diverse cast as an example of a work falling short with diversity. Take Rings of Power, the elves, dwarves, hobbits, and humans there are all a wide assortment of different ethnicities and absolutely no explanation on how they all came to be that way is ever provided. They would be indistinguishable if it wasn't for gimmicks and the costuming separating the cast into different groups.

[@LoreGeist]

Tauriel wasn’t the worst offender of tokenism ever because at least there was some nuance to the character. But the lack of female characters influenced the decision to create her, so that illustrates the point of tokenism even when the character created is not poorly written :) Other than that, you raise interesting points here about how to convey the lived experience of a character with a background that is way outside of the real of normality

[@windmark8040]

Well done. Finally a mature and open discussion. Informative as well.

[@LoreGeist]

Thanks! Tired of polarised surface level discussion about this

[@rzuue]

I once watched a video where they explained why the diversity in Rings of Power feels so out of place: They gave even to the most remote and secluded communities the diversity of a metropolis like New York. We, as humans, are bound to notice, either consciously or subconsciously, and it can feel out of place and pull us out of the movie. It doesn’t ruin it, but it could be avoided if the large cities in the fantasy worlds would be diverse and the remote communities would be less diverse. And if you want to create a fantasy world where ethnicity or skin tone, hair colour, etc is not genetic, just like any other magical rule which deviates from scientific facts in our world, it needs to be established in some way.

[@Giant2005]

When it comes to diversity in fantasy, I think either extreme works well for me. If it is taken to the extreme where the diversity matters a lot for the plot, then that is just plain old good storytelling. If it is taken to the extreme where it doesn't come up in the plot at all, then that is okay too. When the diversity is completely ignored, I can just assume that the diverse actor was just the most talented around, but the character itself is still whatever ethnicity it is supposed to be in the lore, even if it is acted by someone of a different ethnicity. It is only if the story makes a big deal of the character being a different ethnicity in spite of the lore stating that they are not of a different ethnicity, that it becomes hard to reconcile.

[@hikarihitomi7706]

The problem with the “seeing yourself” argument is that it presumes race being part of identity. The problem with that is that it promotes racism. You can’t identify with a race without seeing everyone else by their race, and when you see everyone else by their race, you notice patterns based on race, and that inevitably becomes racism, no matter how much you parrot “racism is bad.” How do you avoid that? By not identifying yourself or anyone else by their race. And if you have actually done that, then when people start pushing this idea of making characters in stories be a different race, it feels a lot like the character has no importance other than race, and that makes it feel very racist to promote making sure characters are different races, because in dealing with the people who want that it feels like you’re dealing with racists who only care about characters because of their race.

[@hikarihitomi7706]

@ I don’t identify myself by race, therefore I don’t notice the race of others unless it is explicitly brought up. I can watch a movie about Jackie Chan or Will Smith and not even notice that they are not my race because I don’t see them as people *of their race.* I just see them as people. So when someone is yelling about needing to change some character because of their race, it is explicitly bringing race to the forefront, as in ignoring everything about the character except for race. It’s also discriminating against the character because of their race, which is the definition of racism. And no, it is not possible to be proud of your race without being racist.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah. To be fair, this very clear racial boundary and segregation is a very US thing (of course, some other countries as well), but a lot of other places are not as obsessed about what % of your background comes from which ethnicity

[@incognitofool6516]

​@@hikarihitomi7706 You are Asian, there is an entire industry that centers your people in media. So of course race isn't an issue for you

[@incognitofool6516]

you couldn't be more wrong. "Seeing yourself" in a character because of their race isn't "Promoting Racism". White creators have centered white protagonists for centuries, and have othered every other racial group to be villains, sidekicks, comic relief or sacrifices for the main white character. So dont you dare tell me as a Black person, I shouldn't want to "See myself in media".

[@hikarihitomi7706]

@ lol, what makes you think I’m asian? Asian is the only race I don’t have in my family tree.

[@MagnusItland]

It is an American thing. Most countries don't have roughly half the population from one continent and the rest from various other continents. As a Scandinavian, I don't expect a Zulu or a Japanese to feel represented in Norse mythology, nor I in theirs.

[@LoreGeist]

I also don’t think a Japanese / Zulu person needs to be represented in Norse mythology, unless it was explained how they got there. One of the points of the video is the representation needs to make sense in the context of the worldbuilding!

[@dragonboy131308]

Necessary yet risky topic. Very well done!

[@EmileAnimation]

YES, DONT TRY TO DENY IT

[@stevenfaw8535]

My God people are so shy it hurts. It’s fiction.

[@LoreGeist]

I don’t quite get it 😅 what do you mean?

[@NaiChanify]

Thank you for this video! It was wonderful. I have thoughts but this comment is mostly to help the algorithm

[@LoreGeist]

Thanks for that!

[@heydiddlediddlethecatandth5251]

This was a very genuine, thorough and well-structured video! A rare find.

[@LoreGeist]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@suzygirl1843]

@@LoreGeist The period we should've had all these diverse comics and fantasies been 2000's when Blade came out. I live in South Africa and Comic Con was full of Africans cosplaying as ANIME characters. The ONLY reason we see DEI being forced is because there was already a decline in comics and they thought changing characters to be black would work. DEI isn't the result of failure of sales, it was a REACTION. I especially noticed the forced DEI after Tyler Perry debuted his billion dollar studio. Hollywood is a MONOPOLY and they didn't want black people creating their own space. I wouldn't be surprised if they purposefully created bad black characters to drive their credibility to the ground

[@chezamayukitsukanii4416]

I do not see why this is even a discussion. Of course there is diversity in fantasy. It should have always been like that, but stupid ideas in history held us back! Diversity means interesting characters. I love it!

[@TheUnknownSpiderMan]

"Rage of Dragons" by Evan Winters and "Jade City" by Fonda Lee A great examples of fantasy books that utilize diversity or non-traditional ethnic groups as part of the storytelling and tell a fantastic story!!

[@wind-upboy939]

There are many ways one can introduce believable diverse characters. The story could take place in a big city with a harbour, where people from all over the world meet. Or it takes place in a huge empire comparable to the Roman empire. Or it is about a journey to a far away land. But there are also times, when it doesn't really work. If it takes place in an isolated place. Or there are different ethnic backgrounds in one family (the last Fantastic Four, okay brother and sister was changed into step siblings, but it felt wrong when you knew the comics.)

[@gothicwriter9897]

I am currently writing a 3 book fantasy series. It will be diverse. There will be male and female characters of different races. Oh and there will be old and young characters. I don't care what colour they are, that'll be up to Peter Jackson. 😂

[@juliagustafsson2895]

yes, but in the story, is it explained how people look different? that guy is white becasue he comes from ”the northern isles” or that girl is black cause she comes from the south? or are they just mushed together?

[@gothicwriter9897]

@@juliagustafsson2895 No it is not explained. Life today used to be a much friendlier place and time to live before woke and diversity created hate and division where there was none before. The sooner this nonsense dies the better for everybody.

[@LoreGeist]

Good luck with your series! What’s your setting?

[@gothicwriter9897]

@@LoreGeist Thanks. At the moment (first draft) it is an Earth-like planet with two suns. Medieval times, swords and horses. Mostly hard magic but for only a select few. The whole planet is unexplored, so room for different races and cultures as the story expands in books 2 and 3. I don't plot other than knowing the ending of the first book, a vague story for the second book and a massive war and final battle for the third book. Oh and there is an enemies to friends romance spanning all 3 books. I believe in a great story telling and great writing over plotting.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

just make the story good and no one will complain. You know woke go broke because they are not telling a story. They are ranting disappointment and expecting recognition

[@daxdim]

I completely agree with most of your points -- however, my major critique still arises from the defaulting of whiteness and straightness as the norm aka the "not diverse" in worlds that do not have the social and historical context to justify that decision OUTSIDE of the author making that decision that those perspectives will be the focal point (consciously or otherwise...). It's very weird to me when people are up in arms about large queer casts of characters or obviously POC/POC-coded characters in (fictional) worlds, regardless of how..."immersion breaking" it may or may not be for any individual reader, for whatever reason tbh

[@daxdim]

That being said, I appreciate this video and am subscribing!

[@ΕρνέστοςΣμίθ]

The problem is that the setting of most fantasy series is way too closely modeled on real medieval European cultures which had practically no racial diversity unless you count Jews and Romani people as non-white. The extremely limited transportation technology and the inherent dangers of traveling through potentially hostile territory prevented people from moving too far away from were they were born. If the setting is based on more complex settings where the level of technology allows easier transport than on planet earth, then a racially diverse setting would seem much more plausible. Zelazny's Lord of Light was based on Hindu myths in a futuristic setting where a planet was colonized by mostly Indians and it was written by a European American back in the 60es.

[@guyincognito4182]

The problem is that a world has to follow rules the reader/viewer understands or he stops caring about. If you ignore genetics (like making Harry Potters parents both not black haired) so everyone with some knowledge about genetics thinks his mom cheated with Snape, that is dumb. Same goes for an immobile community without any migration for hundreds of years with a limited amount of potential partners yet all the racial diversity is visible... like they prefered incest over going out with someone who isn't their race. Same with dwarfs, who should be pale based on them living mostly underground... of course you can make other rules for your world than reality but those should make sense and deliver potential for fullfilling stories. Just changing them for no reason than your preference will annoy most reders/viewers.

[@sugarzblossom8168]

​@@ΕρνέστοςΣμίθit is still fantasy. I don't really see people complain about when that happens in asain media

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, to me it’s all down to how well the worldbuilding justifies that one ethnicity / sexual orientation / gender identity is more prevalent than other, otherwise people lose faith in the author’s ability to make a story that stand scrutiny

[@sirazazeloflowkey6424]

I am not sure if I can phrase this right, but I will try my best. There should be no problem with characters of various backgrounds, genders, appearance and the like. That actually makes things more interesting. That is, when it's not lazily done like cheap tokenism just to tick boxes. i.e. : House of the Dragon = Good implementation of black characters into setting and story that enriches the world and the narrative. Rings of Power = Bad implementation of black characters by just randomly and sparcely making sure every race and faction has one of two black people in their midst without any lore context as to why, how and the like. Lazy tokenism to tick boxes. However, I don't think the fantasy genre should be a place for stories that 'reflect' our world. Fantasy should be for escapism and entertainment first and foremost. When I hear the examples of fantasy that reflects our world I just have to cringe badly, because it strongly feels like the genre is being used as a vehicle for activism instead of for the escapist entertainment it should be for imo. Like if black people are the opressed and enslaved ones in a fantasy story I just roll my eyes, this, because it just feels like you haven't applied the concept fantasy. Why not make it actually interesting and fantasy and have a world where people are discriminated based on something like length instead of skin color, for example. You can still work with themes like racism, sexism, opression and the like, sure, but when it seems like you are copy pasting issues from the real modern world into the fantasy setting it just takes me out of it. To me, at that point, I am no longer reading a fantasy story but an activism paper that disguises itself as a fantasy world. I hope I was able to phrase this correctly.

[@Aewon84]

One thing I like about the Redguards in the Elder Scrolls games is that they kind of flips the idea of white colonists on its head. As for racism, racism based on skin-colour have only existed for a couple of centuries. So if you're doing a medieval fantasy, for example, there definitely shouldn't be that kind of racism if you want the story to be historically authentic.

[@jeusmarcomascarina4102]

just don't force you audience to absorb ideas instead of telling a story.

[@zacharyclark3693]

When diversity is done well (aka, the character is well written) and it works for the story, I have no problem with it. What bothers me is poorly written characters or a poorly written story that uses the excuse “our story/characters are diverse, so if you have any criticism with our story that just means you’re racists, sexists, etc.” Just write good, interesting characters and stories and you’ll find an audience for them.

[@LoreGeist]

That’s it!

[@YaBoiDREX]

So tired of this anti-woke shit. Its really not that serious

[@milestrombley1466]

You can make your own fantasy world, any way you want. Just leave other authors' work alone and don't force your political agenda down your reader's throats. If you want a strong black lesbian woman fighting with men, go ahead. But don't make her a Mary Sue.

[@thedragonerebus2974]

to see yourself represented is just the wrong way of doing things

[@seanharrison2729]

Regarding race: GoT did well by having groups originate from different regions of the world, just like Earth history. Black Panther did well by having Wakanda populated by black Africans, nothing else would make sense within that story. Andor did well, by having Cassian Andor share features with the humans from his homeworld (which was not supposed to be a diverse and cosmopolitan place, just a low tech planet where it makes sense people would look similar after intermingling for generations). But why have one random black elf and one random black dwarf as in Rings of Power? There are so many interesting ways to bring inbroader representation in Middle Earth, that way made no sense to me. And, I appreciate the value of representational diversity to make more people feel reflected in art, but I think we should be striving more for industry wide broad representation; not every project needs to check every categorical box (and it feels phony and forced when they do).

[@LoreGeist]

Pretty much, I think this goes along with my tokenism point, shoehorned surface level diversity is distracting

[@spnked9516]

Placing the external logic of ideologues over the internal logic of a story has been, is, and will always be, the fundamental problem in this matter. Ideologues will always corrupt and compromise the integrity of a story in an attempt to bend it to their beliefs. While everyone introduces some amount of bias in the works they create, there is a world of difference between exploring a question/idea (the purpose of a real story) and forcefully asserting a worldview (the purpose of propaganda).

[@LeVosgienLVHLS]

The future of Fantasy will be even more caricatural, sadly enough.

[@MrGadfly772]

But traditional worlds are not global by nature. The cultures of the past tended to homogenous as travel was exceptional. They were inherently homogenous. Depending on the scale of your story and the travel of the characters will affect the story. There was diversity in the Conan stories for instance because Conan travelled in a smaller world. There was little diversity in The Lord of the Rings as although there was plenty of travel the world was much vaster. Additionally, Tolkien's motive was to set a mythology for western Europeans as the Greeks had done for the ancient Mediterranean.

[@LoreGeist]

I agree with this, that’s why I criticised shoehorned diversity. If there is diversity to your story, make sure there’s a worldbuilding explanation for thst

[@octav1600]

I agree with diversity being done right and Black Panther being the best possible example of that. It's something that would have been silly for anyone to ask for white heroes. My most hated fantasy diversity attempt done really wrong is the insertions of any ethnicity or sexual diversity in a way that doesn't go with the story and setting being presented: -(including white people or heteronormative characters) where they don't belong: - for example a village at the end of the world, where one guy comes ever few months or so has the diverse cast of New York - black, Asian, white people: The first season of Wheel of time ... biologically they would have been all some more or less homogenous variation of brown. because of the dominant trait of the skin color, and not a hodge podge of diverse people, Same goes for the Harfoots in the Lord of the rings -rings of power adaptation. - switching out a white original character(s) for another ethnicity without the implications of what that does socially (House of the Dragon comes here to mind ... full black house Velaryon instead of the canonical white ... half the actors there were great, but not only does it call into question the racism of Westeros for accepting them, but also poses a lot of questions on why the other lords are not black as well - was no other familly really marrying into the wealthiest family of westeros? What happened to all the black nobles, including house Velaryon in the 170 years until the main GOT series ? was there some kind of Genocide? and most annoyingly ... they removed a black character that had an important role, and replaced her with one of the Velaryons ... because why not? ) - sexuality is another thing when they try to put it in an overt way into a low tech, low education, high religiousness setting that was clearly written to be against anything that deviates from that faith's norm (that is usually based on Christianity and has rules against such deviations). Nothing comes to mind for doing it wrong atm, but the original Game of Thrones series did it right (One of the kings, Renly was gay. He was hiding this with marrying the sister of his lover even though he couldn't do anything with her sexually, was endlessly mocked behind his back or after his death for just the rumor of this, and his lover was more or less put on trial when his orientation became public - while I hate the idea of this happening in our world, this does still happen, even in America or other civilized countries, thankfully not to that extent - and in a setting that was so backwater like medieval adjacent fantasy settings cannot justify people being so nice to diverse characters, but horrible with everyone else that is even slightly different from them culturally. )

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, it all boils down to these traits don’t exist in a vacuum, they affect and are affected by their environment

[@octav1600]

@@LoreGeist exactly...

[@happybee1441]

I mean if course some of you never get tired of playing 🌴 people. But its quite boring , can we get a dragons rage remake, or that shadow man game they're always 🌴 people amd always the savior the others should just be happy.to be included i guess

[@jayknox-crichton3130]

I dislike changing past written or filmed works to fit new moral views, where the previous views are not overtly offensive ie we can agree slavery is contentious, but a group not including a female is not. The new attempts to hit diversity targets make everything the same and clumsy as each individual looks placed or picked to fill a roll or tick box rather than being the right person for the story.

[@TheUnknownSpiderMan]

The majority of these comments are cringe AF. *_Characters need a reason to be in the story, they don't need a reason to be diverse._* People are basically saying writers need STRONG REASON to have diverse characters. *NO. THEY. DON'T.* And watching people agree with these comments like they actually make sense is painful. A character should be able to be female, black, gay, sexually fluid, WHATEVER, for any, all, or no reason. They don't need a special reason to be diverse just as your other characters don't need a special reason to be white or straight.

[@LoreGeist]

I think the point is, some fantasy settings are not like a modern diverse city nowadays. If your setting is inspired by medieval Europe, a small town with many different ethnicities would need an explanation as to why they have this diversity there. Is the town a trading point for ships? And people from a lot of cultures pass by and settle? Otherwise it breaks the immersion and believability of the world. Otherwise, why would there magically be Asian / Black etc people on this random medieval European town? It is not a setting in which globalisation is established as a “thing”. I don’t really see the problem with this line of thinking tbh.

[@TheUnknownSpiderMan]

​@LoreGeist - but that is problematic. You're saying authors have to have a reason for someone to have melanin in their skin. Just because it's some medieval setting doesn't mean the people are automatically white. Maybe there should be a reason that white people are in this town. Why are there white people here in this fantasy world where the sun is always shining. Melanated skin is an evolutionary defense against the Sun. So all these fantasy worlds where the sun is always out, always bright, always hot, and yet no one has developed the protection of melanin...that's what needs explaining.

[@TheUnknownSpiderMan]

​@LoreGeistto boil it down, even though you are being very polite, you're basically saying that you can't accept people of color being in a story unless there is a solid reason. You're defaulting to the fact that people have to be white to be in the fantasy. And no, I'm not trying to change your mind through KZbin chat, I know how that goes, but what I do hope is that think about why it is that you -minded problematic for a person of color to be in a story without an explanation. That's just strange to me. People travel. A family could have traveled to any place in the story many years ago. Settled down, and reproduced. The people in the setting would just accept them and not ask them for their pedigree every time they saw them.

[@TheUnknownSpiderMan]

@LoreGeistdid you delete my last comment??

[@TheUnknownSpiderMan]

@LoreGeistI’m going to post a quick version of it again: what you’re saying is that non-white people need a reason to exist in stories, you’re basically saying, white people and fantasy is the default. What you are missing is that melon is an evolutionary product of dealing with the sun. And all of these fantasy stories you have white people living in these hot bright climate yet none of them have developed milling it and I think that would require an explanation over diverse people being in the story. Character characters need a reason to be in the story, they don’t need a reason to have melanin. And saying that they do is where this becomes problematic because then you’re not focusing on the content of the character, but the color of their skin.

[@zaryaka3661]

how the hell can fantasy go woke when there’s always been things like dragons, goblins and darks elves??

[@turbokid8719]

Yeah

[@hahaha70263]

Awesome vid. You broke down 'diversity' in fantasy media wonderfully. I want to see non-white, hetero males in a fantasy story based outside of the usual North and Western European medieval aesthetic and mythologies... But not at the expense of a good story and lazy 'diversity' tick boxes. I can't stand race/ethnicity/gender/sexuality/etc swapping established characters or the girl boss trope or making everyone in a certain racial and ethnic group moral and ethical. I find it lazy and insulting to the racial/ethnic/sexuality/gender/ etc you want to represent. An example of lazy 'diversity' was the live action remake of Disney's The Little Mermaid. Disney clearly casted Halle Bailey as Ariel to tick a 'diversity' box. Rather than go through the difficult work of establishing a new story with a new character, they just made Ariel a darker hue. The concept of mermaids spans many cultures. Many African cultures and mythologies (yes plural, Africa is a massive continent with hundreds of ethnic groups, languages, cultures, etc) had merfolk. Among Nigerians, mermaids are called 'Mami Wata'. Among the Sawa peoples of Cameroon, mermaids are called miengu (jengu for singular). There you have it, a West African creature and that could lead into a fantasy story based on West African cultures and myths such as the Yoruba, Igbo, Akan, Wolof, Mandinka, Ehve, Fon, Hausa, and many more.

[@LoreGeist]

Didn’t know about the African myths, very interesting. Also agree that Ariel’s ethnicity was shoehorned in the remake

[@Salawon]

The most important thing is to remember that diversity is not mandatory and should not be forced into worldbuilding. Homogenic story is as good as diverse one. Sometimes it's even wrong to make a world diverse - that's why the backlash about Kingdom Come Deliverance was so stupid, cause medieval Bohemia definitely didn't look like modern New York and presence of POC there would be just utterly wrong and silly. I have been writing my own fantasy story and human race there is indeed homogenic and of one color - not because racism or any other such stupid thing but just because I feel this fits my setting. Nothing more. And it is totally okay and equally good as a setting with all different colors, genders, races, oreintations and whatever else you like.

[@LoreGeist]

Pretty much, yeah

[@DesertRat1997]

I definitely prefer when settings have diversity in culture and belief, rather than adding superficial diversity into a homogenous culture. For instance I would much rather see a black nation based on a fantasized Africa than have black characters randomly sprinkled into a fantasized Europe. Even if we don't see this black nation, I would still prefer an explanation on how the area became diverse. Are they refugees? Did they travel for commerce? Are they imperial soldiers from across the empire? This serves multiple purposes. It creates the superficial diversity for audiences, it opens up a potential space in the story to explore real world issues, and it utilizes an under-represented mythology as a source of inspiration. I do think that superficial diversity is lazy and tokenizing. However, I don't get worked up over it the way some people do. I recognize that it's a byproduct of the culture that I live in, and that it isn't going to change. Because of this, it's easy to hand-wave unexplained diversity and accept that it has no bearing on the story being told. This may get me some hate, but I believe that the people who get pissed off by superficial diversity have some deeper personal issues. In the end though, I would actually prefer to have token characters rather than not have any diversity. At least it can serve the real-world purpose of introducing minorities to the fantasy genre. Bringing more seats to the table means that some of them may then go on to write their on stories which are actually diverse.

[@suzygirl1843]

Dude., are you tone-deaf? You were around when Black Panther debuted and whites were fear mongering and accusing black people of beating them up in the theatres? Regardless of your preferences, whites are still sabotaging BECAUASE they're not the main characters in any of these properties. Black comics and black fantasy shows and movies featuring black people have ALWAYS existed. They're just not the pop cultural zeitgest and that happens for a reason. Whites purposefully push nonsense like Twilight instead of great books by black authors and The Matrix and Terminator WERE creations by black people. Go research before you spew nonsense like this. The Idea of You was created by a black woman and she HAD to change her characters white in order for them to sell No.1

[@SpiceAndFox]

I fully agree on your first paragraph, I love well-crafted worldbuilding and exploring different cultures within. But saying that people just get annoyed by superficial diversity because they have personal issue is very rude. I'm not hating on you, I'm just disappointed since your first paragraph did resonate a lot with me. For some people like me immersion and world-building are just a very important part of your story, so if that sucks we won't like your story.

[@tgillies101]

Often it lacks explaination or context which is what throws people. The rationalisation often needs a page or two or min or two to explain why. I would consider having random white dudes in a pseudo-Chinese fantasy with no explaination as to why they are ethnically there just as jarring to my suspension of disbelief, or for that matter a series about African mythology and having Matt Damon play Anansi I would equally spitting chips and writing miffed youtube comments.

[@LoreGeist]

That’s pretty much the main problem

[@Mensetcor]

This video is Xeno's propaganda

[@hannahkennelly6961]

I think that the way did little mermaid live action is the way you do it wrong, If they had done the Water Fire Saga, that is diversity done right!

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, little mermaid was shoehorned diversity

[@presleybaldwin3756]

The entire issue almost exclusively surrounds the creators poor skills and political, agenda-driven narrative, preventing an honest insertion into the story world. "Diversity and inclusion" can be done well but requires skill and the genuine intent for the characters connection to the world around them (so their existence in the story makes sense), but far too often they are not added for the correct reasons and the creators don't try, and just lazily make a checklist instead of putting in the effort of developing the necessary skill in writing. There's only a few examples where "diversity and inclusion" is done correctly, and I think most of them are from decades past. Black Panther is a good example but not for the reasons most would think.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, it goes back to the tokenism and surface level representation that I mentioned.

[@cobinizer]

Uh, you said "seeing yourself in media..blah blah. This is a political statement in and of itself.

[@mattfarr137]

Exactly! Same with using the term “cisgender”

[@sugarzblossom8168]

That is hardly political. People see themselves in characters it has been that way for years and will continue to be that way

[@sugarzblossom8168]

​@@mattfarr137what are cis people political too?

[@shyzunk]

Yeah, it is incredible how people parrot the talking points of one side and think that is just the objective neutral default. Well no, that is still pushing the narrative of one side and no less controversial.

[@rclaws3230]

@@sugarzblossom8168 I didn't until people made a huge issue out of it. I could relate to anyone, no matter their appearance. Now I'm only allowed to see myself in those that look like me and I've come to resent those who don't because we're not allowed to imagine ourselves having similar experiences with those who look different to us.

[@Redfield70]

There is no 'demand' for broader, more diverse stories except from industries manufacturing a false reality touting such. People can tell whatever stories they want to tell but identity politics are ugly.

[@LoreGeist]

I’d argue that there’s a financial reason for Disney to add so much shoehorned diversity in their IPs. Obviously it is not from the goodness of their hearts, so there is a demand. But I agree that people should write whatever they want to write

[@africanjack5094]

Shadow and bone is the epitome of terrible diversity.

[@StarlasAiko]

If African fiction was forced to follow the same DEI rules is inflicted on Western fiction, then Zulus would have to be depicted as 40% pale, freckled Gingers. I have nothing against non-white characters, but I am adamantly opposed to race swapping. Africa, South America, Polinasia and Australia have got their own rich cultures and stories to draw from. There is no need to deface and adulterate European and (Post-Columbus) North American fiction. You want stories with more or predominately Black characters, make a movie adaptation of the Anansi mythos or other great and culturally meaningful African stories. But truthful representation in fiction is not the goal. The goal is to flip the tables. The goal is to render White people marginalised in their own countries, use fiction to create the delusion that Blacks have a greater historical claim to Europe than the White natives.

[@johnh.mcsaxx3637]

Eh, in the case of the Americas black people have been there about as long as white people (certainly longer than the Germans and Irish who arrived in the 19th Century), so there are plenty of narratives that can be made about them from slave narratives in the South to the mulatto gentry of Louisiana to the former slaves who became cowboys in the West. The modern Afrocentrism isn't very different from the old Eurocentrism: In the old days any kind of development that existed on the African continent was speculated by European archeologists to be the work of some nebulous Caucasian-adjacent predecessor race (namely in the case of Rwanda, where it was once speculated that some Greek-Egyptian offshoot founded the kingdom). The old Atlantis pseudoscience often tied in speculation that a European predecessor built civilizations everywhere on both sides of the Atlantic. When it comes to historical inaccuracy it seems endemic to cinema at least, in one way or another, no matter who does it. Roman movies cast British people, Egyptian movies cast Nordic Europeans rather than the Greeks who actually ruled post-Alexander, and almost every Christian movie will have a very Germanic-looking Jesus Christ, despite him probably resembling the other Jews of that region and time.

[@swordguy1243]

Yes it went woke

[@SundiataWTF]

Please stop with the woke shit.

[@irw8367]

Genuinely curious on your opinion, what is woke? Is simply having more black and female characters than average in a story woke to you? I’m not talking about raceswapped characters but in fantasy/sci fi in general

[@nicholasrova3698]

@@irw8367 Woke is cultural Marxism, which isn't a buzzword that means nothing, it's an actual thing. James Lindsey gets pretty deep into what woke is and its origins. His lectures are... dry... to say the least, which is probably why so many people don't seem to know about him, but he explores the current 'woke' phenomenon pretty extensively. And he's a liberal. That being said, a ton of people improperly and too readily apply the term woke. It make sense to a degree because there is a ton of woke crap today, but there are plenty of things that seem woke on the surface, but aren't. Something just having a black dude in it, isn't woke.

[@shyzunk]

Having a black dude is not woke. Assuming that diversity is just a necessary or even broadly positive aspect of modern stories could fall under that category. The reason is that this demand comes directly from identitarian politics that tries to elevate the importance of racial or other such groups. It is not saying "I want more niche content, I am bored by all that white medieval Europe", it is saying "black people in fiction should be the norm now". By default, people choose to write for an audience. That could be a black or gay audience, or it could be everyone ever, it could be white married women. But the demand that nobody can write a white only story for a white majority comes from historical and political considerations, and is very much related to woke politics in particular. It is possible to make a non-woke argument in favour of diversity, but the lingo used in the video strongly suggests that the author has woke leanings and simply isn't aware that it isn't some neutral default.

[@rclaws3230]

@@shyzunk The culturally-Marxist mandate of redistributing sociocultural capital by force of artificial emphasis/de-emphasis dynamics, typically by synthetic corporate-gov't initiative. White people, especially straight men, are not allowed to tell stories about themselves, their history, or their future; they must always and in-all-ways defer to emphasizing the participation of minority agents in fiction in order to redress, in perpetuity, perceived historical wrongs on a societal scale.

[@DesertRat1997]

​@@shyzunk​I appreciate your input and think that you are correct in identifying the political landscape behind this. I'm genuinely curious what you would say the neutral default is, because I would say that "black people want representation, and media companies want their money" is pretty neutral. I don't think that anyone is demanding diversity from every story, rather that companies are putting out diversity and then people on both sides are arguing about it. There are plenty of non-diverse stories which are loved.