English is not my first language:) hard sometimes

Yeah, there was some sort of irony with the Lord Grimdark title that circled back to being literal at some point. Marketing I guess

@LoreGeist Title does come from his first law searies, where grimmness and darkness is localised to specific indeviduals (like logan, glockta, ferro, monza, gorst) and their stories go the way of grimdarkness, because of the characters own life choices, each had a chance to walk awey at practically any time (whit exception of ferro, but she was stuborn about keeping to the dark path after yulway saved her, giving her before mentioned choice) and live a normal contended life, like some 99 precent majority, that live lifes not upcommon to our own Real life equlaint and addmitedly, had any of them walked awey, it’d been a net positive for the world and characters themselfs. My whole point is that if first law counts as grimdark, its same level of grimdark as Real life, where if you really want to, you can find yourself for example medicated out of even regoncing yourself in some psychiatric ward, due to your own actions and choices having qonseqenses. That being a major diference from genre norm, where state of the cruel life of characters is regardless if they made right choices or not, actually not even a genre, more character trait in abrecrombies works and ceirtainly not major focus of the overall genre jumping narrative, but occational footnote. My assumption being that abrecrombie finds such a small thing, that just happens to have marketable angle, to be pushed as defining trait, even if narativly, being of characters own choices and qonseqenses, is so feeble, that it can be cut short be simply thinking it trough a moment.

Adds a bit of contrast and room for the story to breath. It’s great

I dont think Joe abrecrombies first law counts as grimdark, first trilogy is primerarly ment as deconstruction of Tolkien and horrible lifes of main characters are by their own actions and choices, even if they are unwilling to admit them, its more like Real life, where if you make horrible choices your life turns into horrible mess due to conseqenses, same could be said for 4th book thats more kill bill, fifth thats a war story, sixth thats western and second trilogy draws its horibleness from depicting Real life period known for using child labor and having non existant safty standards. In primary example of grimdark 40k, life is horrible due to world being horrible, regardless of indevidual choices and one cant escape how screwed up world is by being smart and making good life choices. Thats the irony Joe abrecrombie chuckles at when serious people and he himself sacracstically calls himself lord grimdark, that and label given falsly makes him money.

I don’t mind complex morality. Just make sure you’re grimdark setting has a point of view though, otherwise it’s just a bunch of characters trying to one up each other and nothing is being said thematically

Studio Ghibli strikes this balance so well. I’m a huge fan

Agreed 🤷‍♂️

Yeah, but I would be interested in a point of view of what the trojans consider right or wrong and what the Greek consider right or wrong and how they contrast or complement each other. This to me is more interesting than a muddled setting where nothing is being said about anything

@LoreGeist Yes, but crucially in these stories the conflict is a conflict of interest, not of principles or ideology. And this used to be the norm. If you look for example at the Ramayana, both sides are fighting for incompatible outcomes out of the very same principle. Yes, the story has an ethical component, namely that duty is more important than ties of blood, but that is not the cause the protagonists clash over. This idea that stories need a moral conflict is a recent specifically Western invention born out of a particular tendency to see the world as a conflict of good and evil.

Great! Curious about your thoughts

Agree to disagree I guess 😅

It’s funny how a lot of authors tend to expand the story in the second season / book / movie etc to make it bigger and bolder but they often don’t manage to tie everything back together at the end because of the scope creep

Good to know, thanks :)

Thanks a lot. This was the main point of the video indeed yeah

I think with asoiaf it’s not only the violence but also the grey morality of most characters. There are not a lot of heroes being pushed to do things in the story because of a sense of morality

To me, asoiaf is Grimdark mainly because there’s no sense of right and wrong, people whose moral compass we should use as a reference of heroism. Everyone is acting for their own self interest and ultimately there’s no point being made about what is the “right way to see the world” per se. Plus the violence, “main characters dying” etc adds to the grimdark effect

Wow Silkpunk Grimdark sounds intriguing 😅 gonna check it out

This is great yeah. The setting is grimdark but there’s still a point being made about what the author considers moral or how to interpret the bleakness

Gotmenghast is an enjoyable read and it has a gothic fantasy feel to it as well. Id you want to learn how to make your setting atmospheric that’s the way to go

Dany’s turn is perfect on paper but horrible in execution. It was properly foreshadowed in early seasons but it was completely fast tracked and butchered at the end. So I agree with your take

Yeah, they really didn’t do a good job at making Robb compelling. I liked Cat at least though

'If it isn't nature that finish humans off it will be human nature. Fear, Greed and whatever. I simply don't get the appeal.' That's one half of the equation. I think the appeal is in defying that trend. The end is coming, but you can be the best self you can when it comes. You can go out with honour. Even if it means nothing in the long run, even if no-one can appreciate it besides you, even if there's absolutely no reason to do so. The fight is unwinnable but you still keep fighting, and that includes the fight with your own nastier self. That's the Norse fighting to the end at Ragnarok; that's Jesus going to his crucifixion; it's an old story of heroes who didn't give up, even in the face of certain failure.

Yeah, and also having a point of view about the bleakness other than just “everything and everyone is morally gray, nothing means anything”

Also, if you kill all your heroes early in the story, is hard to make the ending land and resonate. Maybe this is also why George is having such a hard time finishing the series

I think you're right in that there's no hope, but there is possibility of redemption in how each person meets that certain doom. They can go out with their head held high, still fighting, even if it means absolutely nothing except to themselves.

Possibility of redemption, that’s exactly my point

I think the internet making moments like Ned’s execution and the Red Wedding viral didn’t help either. Authors think they need to add this shock value moments now without laying the groundwork for it to have meaning

Hm. Never seen this comparison before. Do you see Greek Tragedy as super nihilistic?

@LoreGeist Greek tragedy is when there are two good solutions to a problem and it sucks for everyone no matter which you choose.

I don't think grimdark is a "modern" genre. People use "modern" to mean "novel" or "contemporary" but the reality is Modernity is a period and it has concluded. Grimdark is trough and trough a post-modern genre. It challenges big heroic narratives just as post-modernism. Grimdark deconstruct the epic fantasy genre. There's nothing modern about it.

Exactly. Peaks and Valleys. Good point about the classic tragedies

Thanks! Great this was helpful

After watching the video, I decided to read back through my genre study for Grimdark. Grimdark is one of my favorite genres to write, probably only second to Horror. I thought I would post the advice I wrote to myself at the end of the study, since I think it would be helpful for your journey into Grimdark: 1. Focus on Complex Characters: Show their cracks. Let them bleed their flaws onto the page. It’s not the heroics that matter; it’s how they survive the dark. 2. Build a Bleak World: Make sure the world reflects the characters. It’s not just about creating a dark place - it’s about showing how the darkness shapes them. 3. Subvert Tropes: There are no easy answers in Grimdark. The world won’t give you what you expect, and neither should the story. 4. Use Darkness With Purpose: Every moment of violence, despair, or cruelty has to serve the narrative. Don’t use it for shock value - it has to resonate. 5. Explore Consequences: Every choice has a cost. No one gets to walk away unscathed. Let the consequences be as real as the characters' motivations. 6. Balance Bleakness: There’s room for small moments of light, but they shouldn’t be enough to make the reader forget the harsh world these characters live in. The light makes the dark heavier.

@@SerenaEMorgan omg thank you!

That’s exactly it. The brutality for the sake of sadism with no thematic point being made verges on teenage edgelord territory to me

Agreed, edgelord behaviour is borderline psychopathy IMHO. And that is not what good grimdark is about. At its heart it is about the noblilty of the human spirit, although incredibly flawed. Again I find myself circling back to Berserk. Guts without his character growth through Berserk is simply a violence addicted animal. But when he applies himself to protecting and helping his second found family his struggle becomes noble and self-enlightening. That said I think many people stopped reading after the Eclipse, which I cannot blame them for. As a result they miss out on Gut's arc into something far more noble than the earlier volumes would suggest. Grimdark is an acquired taste, no doubt, and it will not appeal to everyone. And that is okay. Different strokes for different folks. Romantasy ain't my speed, but those that read it with a conscious eye are hopefully as uplifted by it as others are by other genres. And that, fundamentally, is what Fantasy as a whole is all about.

@ well said :)

I'd say its more dark fantasy then grimedark personally, but I still see the point

so you didn't understand asoiaf

Which sub genres of fantasy would be more your speed then?

​@@dardleuxI did. You didn't.

​@LoreGeistepic fantasy. Literally anything else. Anything with hope and actual character development

How are you tweaking the subgenre?

@LoreGeist Thanks for asking! I was excited when I saw the topic of your new video. A lot of what I'm doing is addressing a number of the great points you mention in your video. To try and be brief, it boils down to pulling Grim Dark out of the void and even taking a few steps back from the edge. I'm working through developing defining elements and common tropes. Take Complex Characters for example, the protagonists can be deeply flawed yet capable of growth and change(obviously that change isn't going to be polar, they won't go from a robotic uncaring killer of anything that looks at them wrong to a pacifist who is barely able to control their emotions), while facing significant internal and external conflicts and like Grim Dark, characters can be morally ambiguous, but there's still room for redemption and heroism. I'm also wanting to do something similar with Cosmic Horror of which I have been a long time fan, as much as I love that genre, the continual unrelenting hopelessness/nihilism is numbing to say the least. And yes I know that is a major defining element of Cosmic Horror but when you have read as much of it as I have it does indeed leave you numb amongst other things. And if anyone is wondering, none of this means that a story has to end with sunshine and roses with everything having worked out and lives are now happy ever after. It's all about the nuance. Let me know if you'd like to discuss any of this further.

@@RenaissanceX2 sounds interesting! Love cosmic horror. Good luck with your story :)

Yeah, layers are usually a good way to go 😅

Hey. Thanks for the feedback. The idea is to alternate between a more formal script reading to personal conversation indeed. I’ll check why the audio in the recording is not that easy to understand :)

I’m not comparing it to ancient literature when I say sophisticated, I’m comparing it to tribes sitting around a fire and sharing stories about gods, creation myths and such :)

What is your setting?

@LoreGeist A world three millennia after a cataclysm and the Creator assigns his Dominions to try guiding the mortals( humans, elves, goblins, ogres, etc) in the right direction; however, the Dominions cannot agree on the Creator's orders. Conflict rises.

the Egyptian ones are very multifaceted, I like that about them

@LoreGeist that good and bad in one being is common in most polytheistic pantheons. Less in monotheistic one who tends to be more dichotomic and manichean. My favourites are when gods are mere mortals, humans or not, ascended to godhood because they forge their era or are exemple to follow. It happens a little in mayan's mythology. Or, in gilgamesh's epic. We have a bit of that with historical figures. They become more than they were, Johan of arc, Einstein, dracula Vlad iii were both fiction and history merge, even with some people like Vikings. Or the dog hachi. In japan and tons of others

@ I like the idea of ascension as well because it conveys a sense of choice and journey

Thanks! I like the romance in Witcher as well tbh, doesn’t overtake the plot, just adds to it. Also it makes both characters better

😂