The PROBLEM with Late-Game Party Members in Persona

[@ChefMonke07]

Naoto actually doesn't suffer from this much. She was introduced quite early on, as early as the second dungeon, in fact, and we get interactions with her here and there before eventually getting her as a party member. There's also this heavy conversation between the Investigation Team, especially Rise, and Naoto where they accuse each other of just playing games in the middle of this murder mystery. Her character was already strongly established before she was eventually kidnapped and thrown into the TV.

[@nightwish1453]

you can see how the devs for p5 saw the gameplay cycle of p4 and used it in the same way, but they didn't realise until last min they forgot anyone who should join late needs something before hand to to prop them up before being a party member, you see that with Akechi technically but it seems with Haru they may not have realised how little she was given because it's clear she wasn't going to be incredibly important amongst the phantom thieves.

[@ChefMonke07]

@nightwish1453 Yeah, even her inclusion in the Hawaii trip felt forced. They clearly forgot about establishing her early on and scrambled to give her any semblance of screen time before her story arc takes place. It's one of the many reasons I still prefer P4 over P5 to this day.

[@nightwish1453]

@@ChefMonke07 it does get funny with the anime and royal they squeeze her in, to try and fix the issue

[@ChefMonke07]

@@nightwish1453 Keyword: try. Her inclusion still felt lacking in Royal, even with the additions.

[@sky_pirate]

Tenkichi wasn't treated the same in Strikers. Which I've heard is the original plot of Persona 5.

[@ryanhatfield8602]

Naoto was done perfect in my opinion

[@TakariCritic]

Premium waifu. I romance her every time.

[@RealChrisTaka]

I'm gonna be honest, this feels like a Haru only problem Naoto and Ken are so much better characters than Haru that it's not even funny

[@sawesomeness]

P4 had a pretty laid back plot so naoto had time to breathe. The problem with haru was that they gave the goddamn cat (the worst character) her screen time!

[@Seb_No.13]

Hell, even shinjiro, who joins last and stays for only about 2 months has the most compelling arc since you meet him and learn about him quite early in the game. It's always the first impressions that intrigue us, but Haru lacked anything good... fk you morgana...

[@Henrodsantos]

@@TakariCriticpoor kanji

[@weldkex2215]

While i agree with Haru's introduction being poorly done, I flat out disagree with your stance on Naoto. You meet Naoto several times throughout the game, and gradually see her view of the Investigation team change.

[@crowquet56]

Plus Naoto's so heavily involved with finding out the identity of the killer, Haru just tags along even though we could have had some great character growth from her.

[@goroakechi6126]

Same goes for Shinji in P3, and failing that, Ken.

[@planescaped]

I disagree, I didn't think it made much of an impact and struggled to use her or care about her.

[@blackkat101]

I'm of the firm belief that all party members should have joined at the latest, the half way point. This then would allow for those characters to develop and grow. Learn more about them and the like.

[@nightwish1453]

the problem would be it not meshing with the gameplay, you don't want the game to throw a bunch of party members at you at once p3 has this problem where they throw character after character in such a short span of time it makes their involvement in the story a bit jagged where aigis isn't really important until the last third of the game. p4 i feel like does it the best in both aspects, your not too overbloated at how it's paced in both story and gameplay

[@Danny-mp8dq]

At least Scramble was able to properly flesh out Haru's entire motivations which is still better than nothing

[@placekpie]

It's not 2021/2022 to call it Scramble

[@demifolk8940]

im actually so glad strikers had an entire arc focused on haru, unfortunately they completely destroyed ryujis character. why he didn’t have an arc completely baffles me. theres one area that themed around superheroes, would have been the perfect opportunity for his character. was waiting to see something, absolutely nothing

[@kialin]

This is only a Haru persona 5 problem. Naoto was introduced early on, pops up from time to time until she joins in October (similar to the way they handled Akechi tbh). Persona 3 out right does not have "late party members", the last party member to join was Shinji during September, Ken joined during August and his "plot" started during October. The reason he felt unimportant is bc the game chose to exclude Ken from so many activities like Yakushima.... Late game party members exists bc persona's formula of 1 new month 1 new dungeon 1 new party member. This started from persona 4 and it only got worse in persona 5. Persona 3 didnt have this problem bc it just added new party members whenever the hell it felt like it, and it chose to add them all early on. For Metaphor, even though she joined before Basilio, Eupha felt more like the Haru here. She joined at the end of a late dungeon, bearly knew what was going on with the plot, and doesnt do much other than giving exposition. We had so many chances to interact with Basilio and Del so even though he joined late, Basilio felt like a constant active force in the plot.

[@ampkenryu7145]

With the late game Metaphor party member, I'm less offended by his plot presence compared to the fact I only have a month and a half to build up a party member who has literally no investment with archetypes/inherited skills and only has their base archetype at rank 5. I was already in pain trying to catch up Junah and Eupha at their join times.

[@moodyteeem]

⁠@@ampkenryu7145tbf by the time you get basilio, a-exp is a lot more abundant than it is in the earlier parts of the game, plus your earlier party members' archetypes should be maxed by then so you start getting a shitton of leafs of light the only thing that was holding me back at that point was mag😭🙏🏽

[@planescaped]

I disagree. Haru is the worst example of it sure, but I didn't find Naoto much better. And yeah, Metaphors final 3 party members really all feel like they join later than they should.

[@masterkiran1091]

Sumire is my favourite character from P5R and I hate that she can be playable only at the very end, I can understand this choice for the story structure, but why they didn't let me play with her from the beginning in new game plus?

[@zumbudeawndeinternet8645]

I don't get why they didn’t let her join in Shido's palace. I mean, Mona offered her a spot in the PT after finding Maruki's palace and you figure he would let her join in later when she wants to join, right? Well no, apparently, Mona forces you into saying no because it's "too dangerous" when she literally has Joker's back in Saes palace. It just makes zero sense

[@Ursling]

Yep this is my biggest gripe with NG+. I’d like to use Shinjiro from the start of NG+ in P3 :(

[@shelbybayer200]

That's the point. It's the Story Structure. If anything they would need to Lock the Character from being able to added to the party UNTIL their Part of the story where they join you is put there.

[@veeshadow]

@@shelbybayer200 This is why I liked how Persona 1 party recruitments. You can recruit the optional party members on your decision. While in P1 the party members you don't choose become NPC, for P6 onward it should be simply join in the late game.

[@helpihavebats6392]

At least in gameplay shes not really anything too special so its easy to kinda replicate her with other party members and pretend its her (pretty much anyone can reach her Crit Rate on top of doing more damage lol).

[@oriongear2499]

Even though Haru is a Late-Game Party Member, I actually managed to max her Confidant and romance her on my first P5 Royal play-through.

[@ryanhatfield8602]

Naoto is introduced just as sone as basilio I don’t get your problem with her

[@ilyamuromez6412]

Also Akechi and Sumire got more development than her.

[@mystery8820]

What got in Sumire's way of personal growth was Maruki, though. And to progress, we had to help him fulfill his plans.

[@0ctopusComp1etely]

It could be so much worse. Golden Sun: Dark Dawn did this too. Except... Himi joins your party a whopping two hours of playable story maximum before the end of the game. You can do the rather extensive end-game side content with her, but almost NO plot occurs with her present. She joins your team so late that when she meets-yes, MEETS- the big bad at the end she has to ask "Who dis?"

[@bulbaa2241]

Akechi does the same thing in royal (he doesn't know who Maruki is and is actually there as his true self for that one palace same as sumire but she already knew maruki)

[@lenaflower2916]

It’s my opinion that you should get all party members in a persona game at the halfway point. Persona 3 did this, and Persona 4 mostly did this (and Naoto is more like mid-late and her moveset is based around late-game skills so that’s still fine). I hope that Persona 6 follows that trend so we’re not stuck having 2 really cool party members you can only use for 1 dungeon.

[@larrywoolfolk8224]

For as perfect as Metaphor was it also had the lategame party member issue. I don't know why they still do this, it's like i clearly know im nearing the end of the game and you're giving another party member to invest in.

[@kid3905]

Eh, I thought they kinda nailed it with Basilo personally. Haru kinda felt out of nowhere. But with Basilo, he was given enough screen time throughout the game for us to properly learn about him and develop a connection with him, which made it felt all the more gratifying when we finally get him as the final official party member.

[@larrywoolfolk8224]

@@kid3905 I should have explained more, it wasn't the screen time that was an issue, it was more so introducing another physical party member (if you count their royal archetypes) when you're probably just using Prince and all the other party members to just support him. Like i LOVED his character arc but towards the end i was really just using him as a switch in for his debuff move and that was it.

[@Anyansi]

@@larrywoolfolk8224 royal berserker is like one of the easiest to use and strongest damage dealers in the game what though to be fair i did grind everyone up to royal and maxed out my protagonist just for fun so uh oops

[@larrywoolfolk8224]

@@Anyansi Nah oh know that, I'm agreeing with premise of the video where i really only get to enjoy the class for basically one dungeon seeing as you're probably grinding all the royal archetypes in that last dungeon.

[@crisgit_g]

No it didn't. I think you just organized your party poorly after they were available as party members. In my first playthrough I've managed to get even the royal archetypes for them.

[@analysissel]

I echo everyone else's thoughts. I stopped the video at 1:49 seconds when I realized you were going to talk about Metaphor, but this is not a Persona problem. In Persona 3, you get all your party members really, really early in respect to the rest of the game. Your party members being fleshed out or not is not a problem of when they're introduced, but how the story is paced or how easy they make it to access their social links. Easily the problem child of Persona 3 is EVERYBODY, either because the male party members lacked social links or because the girls all require you max out a stat in order to hang out with them. That's why they introduced the Friendship Events, for one thing. However, despite that, the story still manages to give each and every one of them significance, so even if you don't get to complete their social link in time, there's still plenty to bite into. I'd say the one with the most significant problem is Aigis considering her Social Link unlocks with only about a month to complete, which is TIGHT. In Persona 4, your last party member is Naoto. However, not only do you encounter her as the Detective Prince MANY times prior to her involvement in the TV World, and not only does an E N T I R E D U N G E O N get dedicated to fleshing out HER CHARACTER, but the portion of the game where she is involved after this point is SIGNIFICANT, and she is exceedingly relevant to the plot of finding the true culprit. Haru is truly the redheaded stepchild of the group. Because of the way the plot unfolds, she doesn't have a lot she can contribute to the team's actions that nobody else can, at least not in the latest part of the story (in stark contrast to Naoto, who was a DETECTIVE, who naturally, in a game with a giant mystery, is going to get time to shine). Ironically, the false party member, Akechi, outdoes Haru in the fact that he is treated the exact same as Naoto: Little time to intrude, but Sae's Palace, besides focusing on Sae, spends plenty of time shining light on his Detectivisms, meaning a dungeon was dedicated to him while he also exercises plot relevance in the same breath. Meanwhile, not only does Haru have the aforementioned problem of not having much unique to contribute, but she also doesn't have any time in the story dedicated to her, since her father's palace focuses on her father and Morgana. Considering this is a 10 minute video where you claim not only to talk about Persona as a franchise *and* a Metaphor character, I can't imagine that what I've been locked out of viewing goes into as much depth as this. Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be. It's more than simply when they join the party. It's a combination of: 1. When they are introduced to the narrative (when do they arrive? not necessarily when they join the party) 2. How they are involved with the beat of the narrative (well-paced? if they're introduced early, but don't make many appearances, their early introduction doesn't do much) 3. How they are involved with the plot of the narrative (plot-relevant? talks a lot, or a little? also, are they involved before they join the party, or only after, if at all?) 4. Amount of time in the main-story dedicated to them (this is self-explanatory) 5. How accessible is side content related to them (when is their social link unlocked? how easy or how prioritized is it to be able to complete it?)

[@Ryzer235]

I think Naoto doesn’t really get overshadowed. If you’re playing Golden, there is up to 4 full dungeons that are introduced after her main one so she gets quite a bit of attention.

[@demifolk8940]

haru gets more dungeons she participates in tho lmao or just as many. Okumura, Sae, Shido, and the royal dungeon (and the longest dungeon in the game). As well as mementos final area, which is pretty much a dungeon but slightly shorter. Naoto gets nanako, magatsu inaba, marie (which is a shorter one), and final one (another shorter dungeon)

[@_Lis25]

7:18 because like every kid he's bored so he reads random magazine that he found? It's not that complex.

[@dygardkuroyuri2624]

Actually never had a problem with Metaphor's Basilio. He was introduced as a character in the story with enough substance to clue us in on who he is, and when he becomes a party member, you'd have already maxed out more than half the cast for Follower Rank Ups, meaning he can be the last, if not one of the last Followers to max out on ranking up. His late game party joining is also balanced out by having some of the most physically centered kits in the game, and he has more than enough time to be added in the party for around 6 dungeons; moreso than other examples.

[@KhangNguyen-ij4xh]

Dude is also a crit machine once you maxed him out. Wanton Destruction is one of the most bullshit ability in the game imo

[@bacd-nn2lg]

I wish that we could get her much earlier, since at this point of the game my character has already romanced someone.

[@mythalieon7829]

I think P3 really does this well, no one is really harmed any everyone is well fleshed out by games end

[@marecaelomiscere]

Haru who despite everything manages to be the best girl (and one of the most interesting kit in the game): truly my beauty thief

[@FengNirothar]

I'm glad that in Metaphor we at least get to know the character throughout the game already, and I actually guessed through the earlier writing they would join even before we recruited one companion earlier. And I really liked them, and their story, before and after recruitment

[@veeshadow]

The funny thing for Persona series is why they never use Law, Chaos, and Neutral story path like SMT series. It basically decides who your party members on side you choose. This is even a feature on Falcom game : Trails Through Daybreak even though in the end your party will be same, just the order they join will be different. The story itself can even be same, just choosing the path allow you to experience the character's story earlier than other... Even on Persona 1, you have a choice to decide your optional party members (1 on Sebec, 2 on Snow Queen). So they can bring back this mechanic with just different order party to join instead make party members you don't recruit become NPC on Persona 1.

[@nightwish1453]

i've played persona 1 myself and the optional party member gimic is cool on paper but in practice not really. the optional characters vary in story relevance and how they are as party members (some of them suck harder than the worst ones in the modern games), Reiji and Elly have some placement that fills the team up either because one is related to the antagonist (reiji)or they play off with one other characters that feels organic and having their development pay off later (Elly not picking her at all especially in sebec can make EP's focus on her a bit out of nowhere). with Brown and Ayase they just don't work, brown is another character that dogs on Mark and when you have 2 people doing the same thing it makes one redundant and doesn't add anything, it's also hard to believe Ayase being that close to Maki then how the sebec route frames it (who ayase is known to not be close to anyone) unlike Elly where in later stuff they consider themselves to be as close as sisters. For the Gameplay aspect Elly is the best the rest are mid or terrible

[@properjellydontbeproper3652]

I think they could still possibly implement it. In apocalypse for example we could be evil but still dagda would kill a party member & reincarnate them as our docile bride with new memories. Kinda dark tho,don’t think we’ll see that in a persona lol but imagine

[@thatonepyronoob]

I think that'd just be too much to ask for if Persona stays on the calendar system. Atlus would have to go in and program three times the number of story events while also meticulously testing to make sure it was still possible to max all the social links and stats in the allotted time. Plus, I don't think the Law, Chaos, Neutral thing would really work with a modern Persona game's themes. Like how would it be possible to structure Persona 5's story with a Law storyline? You just... take your punishment and don't play the game and eventually watch as the world fuses with Mementos?

[@blakeasisco]

Late game members in Persona does not bother me. However, in Metaphor, it's a damn hassle to once again have to grind up all the different archetypes for yet another character.

[@bluelogic8621]

Haru is best girl, they had to add her late to give the other girls a chance

[@alanviniciuswanderleytavar4399]

Imo there's nothing wrong about late game party members, it's just the execution, if you use the fact that they are only in the party for a short time, or very late, you can make that be a strength, using the fact that they are rooks or feel apart of the group, or maybe use the little time they have às part of their theme

[@Yarharsuperpirate]

The easiest way to fix Haru's character, was to simply give her a bit of screen time over the course of the game before okumura's palace, as a way to build up to that arc well in advance.

[@RandomizedYoutuber012]

Yeah, Haru was the worst in my opinion, literally never did anything with her outside of using her during the one palace Ken wasn’t nearly as bad, but still had issues Naoto was introduced far earlier and I was so happy cause I didn’t have any issues with her starting point

[@bulbaa2241]

Ken's introduced fairly early on as well and joins also fairly early joining in August with his main arc being in October (his arc happens around the same time as akihiko) he was done fine he's more of a midgame party member who popped up a little bit in the story he just wasn't very social as a person

[@RandomizedYoutuber012]

@ as I said Ken wasn’t nearly as bad Naoto was introduced basically as well as they could have I hope in persona 6 they do not have another Haru incident, she was a really good character….

[@NicoTreecko]

So ways to handle this is up to a variety of options, but could very drastically change the Persona story formula. The easiest and proven method of this is to introduce the later game party member earlier so we have a connection with them before they're playable. P4 does this with Naoto investigating the ongoings and P5 does this with Akechi set up as the rival to Joker (handled much better in P5R, but also Kasumi/Sumire is handled in a unique way that doesn't fully fit this mold). The second way would be to introduce some characters in pairs so they have a dynamic already that we can see and infer much about them, while also already providing a character they can already play off of. Dragon Quest XI does this twice: the sisters Veronica and Serena, and then again with Jade and Rab. These characters get their own individual moments, but we have a good impression of who they are because we see them interacting with someone they're already deeply connected with. Using Persona 5 as an example, it would be kinda like how we got Ryuji and Ann together in Kamoshida's Palace. Both had a connection to the boss and were made playable relatively close to each other. To make it more cohesive, if we saw more arguments and misunderstandings between the Ryuji and Ann before the second Palace infiltration, and Ann joined us right then for that part of it which is right after Shiho jumped. Make it so Ann gets captured and taken away; during that moment is when Kamoshida taunts Ryuji and he has his awakening. Ryuji is wiped, but after learning the truth between Ann and Kamoshida, he can't leave her behind. Then we get Ann's Awakening moment when the find her and free her. After that, it plays like normal. But that would be a way to make Ryuji and Ann more of coming as a pair as opposed to 2 separate incidents. Another way would be to make it so you had to make a decision about which character to prioritize. The player would have to pick a path to decide which situation to handle first, and that determines the order the next batch of characters would become accessible. Keeping to the P5 example (I know this doesn't make sense gameplay wise, but just focusing on story for the moment) say after getting Yusuke and taking down Madarame, the Phantom Thieves had a choice in what they had to do next due to the multiple issues they were facing and your party members had very different opinions on what should be focused on and left it up to Joker to decide. Ann talks about how Makoto has been snooping around and maybe be onto them so they need to do something about her. Yusuke has noticed that the Phantom Thieves seem gaining notoriety online and attracting the attention of groups like Medjed that could be problematic as they talk about making the rest of Japan pay if they continue their actions as Phantom Thieves. Ryuji talks about how what they need to do is go for the next big score so more people will know about them and they can help people on a larger scale, he brings up how Okumura is appearing on the Phansite and it'd be a huge score for them. Joker and Morgana would've had an interaction with all 3 options in some way before this so they have a bit of context for each one (direct talk with Makoto, messaged by Alibaba, and maybe comforting Haru after another student yell at her for the state of their parent working for her company, and maybe Akechi meet up talking about he doesn't envy the Phantom Thieves for the position their in and questions what would Joker do). That determines who out of Makoto, Futaba, and Haru would come next to the party. The challenge is then writing each scenario 3 times for the different party compositions, and each Palace would have to scale to the order you picked them in. Or hard lock it so the Palace is just Joker, Morgana, whoever was advocating for that mission, and the new party member to simplify things. All of these could not exist in their current forms and have to be reworked. Then another Palace would need to exist for the Mona leaving part so you have everyone before Sae's Palace and the potential traitor plot. The last option is to just have an extra story dungeon/arc after your last character arrives before going into the final story beats. P5 version, have a real Momentos crawl to reclaim Mona when debating whether to team up with Akechi because them giving up means breaking the promise to Morgana. Let Morgana have their own themed boss and realization he came from Mementos, but not know why. The get Mona back and have Akechi agree to the terms that they'll break up after they help him with Sae, but their last act will be getting to the bottom of Mementos for Mona and they won't be targeting anyone which his justice should agree with. Akechi agrees (but also affirms that he needs to get rid of them asap).

[@DiademAce]

I was actually just thinking about this great timing on the algorithms part

[@shaginus]

in terms of party in JRPG I think Tales series doing very well Tales game got 3 Acts and most of the time you should get all of them at the end of Act 1 giving lot of time to bond and farmiliarize with their mechanic

[@jimbob0i0]

This is why i love how they handled it in P5S ... in NG+ the battles allow you to use all characters regardless of when they were unlocked the first time round. They aren't there for story of course, but it's the lack of them in the battles in NG+ that is really upsetting in the other games than P5S.

[@Rockmanbalboa]

it should return to persona 2 and 1 where's a good part of the cast is already a member. i don't remember them having late game members.

[@tinysuperaqua]

Persona 2 had late game members; Jun is P2IS (Replacing Yukino) and Tatsuya P2EP (Replacing Nanjo or Eriko). Jun also didn't receive much screentime and receive worse treatment than Haru in battle since Jun was basically just Yukino 2. Fusion Spells made it so it was best kept Yukino's Durga on Jun to have a more element coverage compared to is using Jun's initial and ultimate personas. At least Haru was a good party member with traits exclusive to her. Persona 1 had Reiji which was available later the other party member and require extra steps to get him. You would have to play a third of the game with only 4 party members until you him. He a good party member and good character development. Bear in mind that Eriko and Hidehiko barely receive any development due to being optional party in both the Sebec and snow queen route.

[@the_malevolent_one]

A 10 minute short is INSANE no way

[@kane6351]

Yosuke P4, favourite character

[@nunothedude2]

Based

[@TakariCritic]

Naoto is the best, hate she wasnt earlier.

[@j-mm4763]

I think they made improvements with Royal since they introduce Sumire at a very early point in the game before she becomes super relevant. Also Akechi gets a social link too even though gets gets character development through the story anyways.

[@DwillGame]

They can fabulous easily by having them introduce earlier before joining your party but having them as a social link

[@planescaped]

I always hate how in these games you have 3-4 party members for what feels like 50% of the game, then it throws your 5th and 6th party members at you at what feels like the 70% and 80% marks. And every game does this, the pacing sucks and you think they'd learn it sucks.

[@stefanopertici4363]

Well, i romanced Haru in P5R but why Atlus said “So, you meet her in september BUT HER CONFIDANT STARTS IN THE 31Th OF OCTOBER IF YOU HAVE MAX PROFICENCY”

[@KnucklestheEcidna]

it's mostly to give the game replay value as the game requires you to do multiple runs to 100% the compendium. as it carries over the quicker you max out a social link the less time you have to spend on them in consecutive runs opening up a lot more time to spend time with the remaining links that you haven't completed yet.

[@PublicDudeBaby]

Bro just casually spoils metaphor refantazio, watch out

[@tokyobandz3307]

Didn't even know Basillo was a party member until I watched this smh

[@moodyteeem]

bro there's a spoiler warning😭🙏🏽

[@PublicDudeBaby]

@@moodyteeem I missed??

[@nunothedude2]

Ikr dislike it

[@Socioromanticism]

If there was a spoiler warning, I missed it too. If it was in text, I listen to video essays at work. If it was at the very beginning, I watch on my phone, and the video begins playing before I actually tap on it.

[@MustacheDLuffy]

The problem with late game party members has more to do with their impact in the story. The best real advice is making sure to introduce your characters before the middle point of the story, this is for video games as well as manga/anime. In persona 5’s case there’s 8 palaces so every important character should be introduced before the 4th palace (Futaba’s) but Haru being introduced in the 5th palace makes her impact minimal especially when the story beat with Morgana leaving tries to out way her place (usually the place were each new character introduced shines)

[@KonEl17]

This is a Haru problem definitely i felt this when i beat vanilla 5

[@Paddy-if3nd]

For some reason I don't remember Ken being as late game as he was lol. It's been a while since I played P3 in any capacity though. But my main gripes with late game party members is I feel weird playing the game without the full roster of possible party members and how much time I have to increase their bond before the end of the game.

[@ShioSatou]

Feel like the part where you talk about the gameplay aspect of why certain party members join late is a bit inaccurate, at least for Persona 3 in particular. Characters don't really join just to fulfill a specific element outside of early game, and and the bosses aren't really primarily designed with the new members' affinity in mind. Ken, Koromaru and Shinjiro all join the party at around the half-way mark in the game's story, and all three of these characters have skills and roles that are technically already covered by other characters, they just add a unique spin to it. Ken joins as a weaker secondary healer whose primary affinities are already covered debatably better by other characters, with his only real new addition being Light instakills, but he still manages to find unique use cases in spite of this. Likewise, Koromaru joins as the actual dedicated fire attacker of the team, although fire is technically already covered by Junpei, albeit not very well, while his Mudo skills are kind of secondary to his main role despite being the new thing he offers that the team didn't already have. Shinjiro also just straight up joins with a skill Aigis already has, and nothing really unique to him besides Regenerate 1 lol

[@JohnRuth-qg5gp]

Ken was added at the perfect time in the story imo

[@Captain_M27]

4:19 akechi: am I a joke to you

[@dancarter5775]

Persona 5 sorta fixed this by having the character with the relevant dungeon join for the dungeon, as opposed to like in Persona 4, and then we went back to the issue in Royal with Violet only joining for a couple of battles, and then the final dungeon. And then Akechi only has a single use dungeon, then expanded into two during the final dungeon. And Haru still gets more time as a party member than Naoto in P4. Even compared to P4G. Because the earliest you can get Naoto is hard locked, only after her dungeon. And surprisingly, persona 3 doesn't exactly have this issue. Ken, the final permanent member, still joins kinda early on, especially compared to Haru and Naoto. Naoto of course had the added benefit of appearing and being a side character all the way back to the second dungeon. Ken, while a good character to use, also gets pretty overshadowed by Shinjiro joining very shortly after, and all those story beats. Not only that, but The Answer forces many other characters to be used at weird times, so Ken really has a lot of time to shine. The issue is most prevalent in Persona 4 by far, because all members can only join after their dungeon. And Persona 5 fixed this by having pretty much every character join at the beginning or at the most middle of their dungeon, with Futaba being the only one who doesn't join until basically the end. Basically Naoto was done the worst but still is barely passable. They did much better with Haru, and then messed up again with Violet.

[@JajajaAhhaha-t2f]

In persona 2 jun is the last character but considering his role... He's probably one of the most important character since the start (small spoilet Jun was the first Joker before persona 5)

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I love Sumire and Haru! (As party members)

[@filipower776]

Kinda unrelated to the actual point of the video but I do believe that availability should be considered upon making persona party members tier lists

[@Geist312]

Noato has been showing up early in the game, there was even a discussion between rise and naoto before she joined, feels like you did not play P4 or misremembering things

[@demifolk8940]

almost positive he was doing it based off of how he thought it happened when he played a while back. or just wasnt paying attention. naoto shows up during kanjis arc, and is repeatedly involving herself with the group. also, from a gameplay perspective, naoto doesn’t focus on any “important” elements. she is a jack of all trades, making it completely okay that shes the last party member and so late in the game. she has single target magic, aoe almighty, insta kills, single targer phys, and even some extra skills she can get in golden.

[@JaredThe]

Honestly I always felt Jun from Persona 2 suffered some of the most from being added so late into the game, compared to P1 where you you kinda have your full party decided on and maintained for the majority of the game, he just seems to come in REALLY close to the very end, which isn’t very long for an RPG as compact as P2. He’s absolutely important to the whole overarching story so you feel like you know him a bit well by the time you get him, but it never feels like you really know him by building up the same familiarity the other characters have. Of course, in terms of 3-5’s cast I do think Ken is a character that suffers really heavily from not only being added late, but overall a lack of care for how he’s handled for most of game in general. There is a lot of Game to P3 after your last party member is added and you lose and regain members a few times so I think it manages to handle the gameplay structure issue that could be faces otherwise, however they hardly take the opportunity to develop Ken or make him feel very natural as a fit to the team, which is a big shame cus he is a really interesting character that could have a lot more interesting friendships with the rest of the cast if given the chance, and is honestly developed better in a lot of side media and adaptations.

[@allyrose9494]

Naoto and to a lesser extent Yoshizawa are fine in regards to this as there's a decent bit of main story content involving them before they join. Naoto's is more natural given that they aren't a rerelease character but Yoshizawa has the first half of her confidant right away to compensate. Meanwhile Haru needed a lot more than the one anime cutscene teasing her and the one additional optional scene royal added.

[@superblanco444]

I disagree big time with Ken. By the time we get him as a party member there’s still a big chunk for the game to get to know him as character too.

[@osdesinteligentes7946]

If any persona game suffers from late party members is p2, poor jun

[@moongaming2778]

i dont have anything against haru but i never felt connected to her like the rest of the members, ephua is also the same from metaphor refantazio not sure why

[@nunothedude2]

I think they did eupha pretty well in metaphor

[@dinconium2570]

idk about not having enough time to max social links though, I play persona 4 n 5 vanilla version very casually and maxed out haru's and naoto's social links just fine

[@SushiGhost97]

Haru's only problem is that her arc was partially stolen by Morgana and that she doesn't have much time for self reflection after her father's death. As strange as it sounds, I feel she was handled better than Basilio was, at least on a gameplay level. Basilio is introduced to the party very early, but he only joins offcially like right before the 2 final story dungeons and at that point I feel most players would stick to keeping Strohl in their party as their heavy hitter phys attacker. Where as Haru was playble for 4 whole Palaces, 5 if you want to bring up the final stretch of Mementos and the Qliphoth. And I love Basillio but dropping him off for the player right at the end was disappointing to say the least. Naoto suffers from none of these issues, still proving to be best handled final party member in these games.

[@helpihavebats6392]

In Basilios case id imagine players would go to check out their new Phys Archetype for a but and as it turns out Berserker is one of the best Archetypes. I dont think many players wouldn’t want stuff like Extreme Strike damage while inflicting a Strike weakness or Charge. Strohl is amazing yes but Basilo isn’t really lacking much at base.

[@nunothedude2]

I didn't have the same issue, since u can get xp items easy and make a build, i decided to use him and he and strohl are my favs and even if u dont spec him (Hp and Warriot lineage mastery for buffs at stats) Basilio has great stats plus Berserker is better than all of strohls warrior, strohl only wins cuz of royal warrior

[@TheJaredPunch]

Really, Haru is the main problem. Ken joins the party more than halfway through the game, which is still a lot of time (the main problem was mainly just that his character didn’t have anywhere to go after 10/4), which is where his Link Episode helps somewhat lessen the problem. Naoto is also someone who had plenty of screentime as a rival to the Investigation Team prior to her joining. And say what you will about P4’s less than stellar comedy scenes, but at least Naoto has time to interact with the cast (already had chemistry with Kanji, the other girls). Which again, was long before she officially joins the team. Metaphor Spoilers incoming: Everything I said about Naoto also somewhat applies to Basilio. Again, he is introduced even before Heismay officially joins the team. The following arc has him growing with the team as a result of their fight against a human. Basilio already had a character arc before joining the team, and as Basilio said, Fidelio’s death put him back into the starting line. Where Basilio as the last member of the team has to move forward in his brother’s stead. And as far as his character interactions are concerned, they are mostly with Junah, and a little bit with Heismay (due to his distain for Paripus).

[@cw442]

I don't think it was done too bad with Ken and Naoto especially. Naoto is a character throughout the story who the cast interacts with and natural to her being an actual competent detective she wouldn't work as a party member early on as they'd solve the case significantly faster. I think as well the upgrade editions Royal, Fes/Answer, Golden all gave more breathing room for the character development and interactions. Though real OGs know that the real character interaction highlights are in the spinoffs.

[@pforgottonsoul]

honestly i'd say it's a problem with JRPGs in general, late game party members are almost always underdeveloped cause of lack of screentime.

[@keinchi]

Bro did you say Minsc was good placement when a common complaint in the BG community is that he shows up too late in the game? 😂. Same with Bas… when Naoto is the only one out of all these that was properly built up too.

[@demifolk8940]

Bas was properly built up too wtf are you talking about… hes with the party for the entirety of virga islands and further stays with us in altabury heights for a bit. Hes also one of the strongest party members, making it more justifiable thats hes so late because hes strong. Hes also introduced way earlier than that, you meet him at brilehaven and he has significant scenes with our main party despite being antagonistic to a degree. although, you can also say naoto does the SAME EXACT THING edit: him and del are actually introduced after the first dungeon. forgot that, he doesn’t say anything tho. brilehaven is when you really learn get introduced to the brothers.

[@aggresiveiceberglettuce8848]

Also i think shinjiro kind of has a similar but also very different issue he gets built up and by the time you get him he gets immediately ripped away baiscally

[@nunothedude2]

Unrelated, but im afraid of woman no one gonna see this

[@franciscosanchez-zf5vo]

If anyone played like a dragón infinite wealth they know haru is nothing compared of how late Jon gi han joins on that Game. Zhao also joins pretty late, more or less like haru at p5

[@SportsGaming-ll3ru]

Honestly tho, Ken really isn’t late, ya get him about 2 months earlier than Haru and Naoto, and p3r also has link episodes

[@barnacle-v2e]

I like the way Tactica did it tbh

[@michaelthex2684]

So the solution is Royal Akechi, just pernimant.

[@thatonepyronoob]

There isn't a problem. Ken and Shinji were both introduced about halfway through the game and both have pretty explicit arcs that fleshes them out, and Ken continues to get fleshed out post Shinji's death through his interactions with the protagonist and Akihiko. You constantly are bumping into Naoto before her dungeon so you have a really good idea of her personality and she stays EXTREMELY relevant to the story throughout the rest of the game (In the short time she has she arguably contributes more to the investigation than Chie, Yukiko, and Kanji combined). Akechi and Sumire are both very fleshed out and they were both later party members than Haru. The problem is that Persona 5 is a very ambitious game storywise and that causes multiple characters to suffer because after their palaces they just fade into being just another party member. This affects Ann and Yusuke, but with Haru the problem is quadroopled because she has to share her screen time with Morgana's depression arc and setting up Okumura getting murdered.

[@somekami3375]

Honestly Ken’s introduction wasn’t that late in the game. Along with the fact that he gets a lot of attention compared to Haru when it came to his story within the game.

[@T_Plus_Mer]

I feel overall this video applies to only Haru. Mainly because you don't really see her much at all before she joins the party. Plus the moment she does join, it's more about Morgana dealing with his insecurities than Haru developing at all. She has a cool SL and all but unless I'm missing something she doesn't really stand out much since (other than with the VP in Shido's Palace) P3, P4 (and Metaphor) dont have this issue. They introduced their end game party members in the story pretty early on and you see them way more often and potentially develop before they even fully join. Heck Akechi (Sumire to an extent) and Shinji are barely mentioned and they joined AFTER Haru & Ken in their respective seires but i feel like they had a bigger impact/stood out more than them.

[@mystery8820]

Feels ironic that Akechi, Sumire, and Shinji are far more impactful as non-playable characters before they became playable for a short time. Moreso than Haru in P5R's total playtime. Akechi and Sumi mostly because they were an extension to Shido and Maruki's plans, respectively.

[@T_Plus_Mer]

@mystery8820 facts 💯💯💯

[@mystery8820]

@@T_Plus_Mer Also, 10/3 in P5R sorta gave off the impression to me that the issue wasn't with Violet... but Maruki, given how defensive and confrontaional he was acting towards the Shujin VP.

[@KhangNguyen-ij4xh]

A bit spoilery, but Metaphor’s last member is done pretty well. They were introduced to at around the same time as the 5/7 members, and they only becomes a party member after their events, so you don’t feel like this weirdo stranger just forced himself into your team, he was technically your acquaintance for 2 months by that point

[@ironbaysqiureg4827]

Persona 5 Royal fixes this kasumi doesn't feel like like she's underutilized because they spend a huge chunk of time in story as long as allowing you to do Social Links with their very early If Haru was allowed to have the same treatment the damage would have only been negated to Morgana and Makoto stealing her screen time away

[@demifolk8940]

For OG persona 5, I agree on Haru. But this just isnt true for Royal. Royal actually adds a few more scenes for Haru before she joins. Which isnt as good as Naoto and Basilio being involved in the plot very early on, both super comparable cuz they’re met around the 2nd dungeon or 20-30 hours mark of the game. But still, its an attempt at least for introducing her character. Also, Naoto and Basilio are completely different because of their involvement in the plot yes, but they also have some the most unique and strongest kits in the game. Bas is better balanced, being your best physical attacker by then but not overwhelmingly strong. But Naoto does overshadow your other teammates for how good she is. Still, that is a good justification for their late game arrival. It makes rhe wait more worth it when they have unique, strong, and cool kits. Haru, isnt the same gameplay wise. Shes “balanced”, or fits in with the rest of the team. P5 party members are a bit too balanced… although you could argue her kit is really good with her gun damage and utility. Now onto to Royal, You gain haru at okumura palace. Use her for the entirety of the palace. Get a bit character moment for her. Persona games are played until the end of the year from april, haru is introduced almost 2 entire months before Naoto. Shes available for 4 full dungeons (okumura, sae, shido, and maruki). And the final area of mementos, which is a slightly shorter dungeon. I really have no problem with late game party members. They can work well if they are used like Naoto and Akechi, not used for long but significantly stronger members. And people still exaggerate Harus inclusion in the story, which has been mostly fixed imo. Last point I want to make, p3 does not do this perfectly whatsoever. Theres a point where they introduce so many new party members, its almost overwhelming. You get like 4 party members in the span of a month. Thats not really well paced, Persona formula of monthly isnt perfect either. But neither is throwing 4-5 party members at you and hoping you sort it out

[@docmar5453]

This is humbly only applicable to Haru

[@shangkay6918]

The reason I hate haru’s dads palace isn’t cuz it introduced hard late it’s cuz of the boss fight Also with the spinoffs I like to think that they’re part of the main timeline of the series For instance first is persona 5 Royal, then sometime in between it’s the persona 5 táctica dlc since it has crow and violet, then persona 5 strikers, then last is all of persona 5 tactica

[@sunniestglobe5717]

I just want to make a correction here, Haru isn't a late game party member, she was in the original P5, but in Royal, the late game party member is actually Sumire/Kasumi, so you really did an error there

[@trinichan5103]

I really can't relate to you guys I romanced haru asap I didn't care how late she was.

[@voklongtwoys]

I mean tbh Haru was the most vanilla of the cast and there was hardly anything interesting about her at all. She like Anne pretty much fell irrelevant after their arcs. More on writing and characterization were the problem for me lol

[@mystery8820]

Late-game party members... also, why isn't Violet here? Isn't she late-game, too?

[@KonEl17]

Youre right bout Haru but not about Ken or Naoto.

[@Hakinoa]

He’s just sad because he didn’t got to date haru

[@thanatosdriver1938]

The problem with the Persona characters doesn't show up when they have too little time to develop, it comes when everything we see from them make them bland. Haru has this problem, Junpei has this problem, every protagonist has this problem and every party member in P4G EXCEPT Naoto and Kanji has this problem, the spin offs fix the characters because the writers seem to only understand the task in while making spin offs and leave the writing in the mainline games with much to be desired

[@jaz9684]

I hate okamura's palace because of the last part (the airlock puzzle). In metaphor, i found eupha and basillio pointless. If you can give all the characters any archtype anyway then why have so many characters?

[@helpihavebats6392]

Royal Archetypes but also coz Characters have different stat layouts. Basil fully commits to hitting hard and tanks with high Hp and END. Basilios Royal Archetype can literally solo fights due to its Passive that makes Crits not consume a turn. So with high enough Crit with Gold Rush or high Accuracy with Critical Slash he just infinites enemies to death (You can reach 100% Crit in this game and Accuracy is capped at 99%).

[@NisseDood]

Kanji from P4 is peak persona character and its heresy that there is no FemMC to romance him , or just go with homo romance.

[@DigitalStarry]

Hot take but Haru gets plenty of time left in the game. Even in vanilla you get essentially 3.5 dungeons left to use her in, the spaceship, casino, cruiseship and depths of mementos as a half dungeon. In Royal you have 4.5 If you want to argue game didn’t use her well and her confidant starts kinda late in vanilla (in Royal you have an extra month to help out) sure, but she doesn’t really join that late. I always wonder why people ignore Kasumi because she’s much worse. Only available in a single dungeon. Most of her interactions pre January is only with Joker (with a few Akechi ones) and she undergoes significant development in January but you barely have time to see it before the games over. And unlike Haru she doesn’t get to appear in Strikers either. I’m also confused because Persona 5 has a great example of a well characterized late game party member who doesn’t suffer any of these issues that you somehow managed to miss. Goro Akechi. He’s only available in a single dungeon in vanilla and two in Royal, but he’s arguably the most complex character in the entire game (at least in Royal), introduced with a confidant you start early on way before he actually joins like you wished and interacts with the group several times and Joker alone. He’s a perfect example of this done well. Also I think its kind of a terrible move casually dropping the Metaphor example considering its a lategame spoiler. This game isn’t even a month old dude, at least spoiler tag it. I just literally unlocked this character last night in fact. Especially when as stated you could have just used the Akechi example. But when it comes to Metaphor I think theyre a bad example when it comes to gameplay. The game just shoves you 3 party members in less than a month instead of spreading them out better. And because they come in with only a few levels in their starting class its hard to consider picking them up when your starter four has probably mastered multiple classes at this rate. Like why Atlus?

[@nuke7135]

to be honest i'd liked Sumire 10 times more if she joined the team in 10/03 instead of like the last 20 days of the game.

[@Megalodon.666]

every social links should've start earlier.

[@jasper-ul7kd]

metaphor spoilers why 😢😢

[@riftfontain]

Ikr! Wtf

[@pmpmpika]

I'm not agree about Haru too late, LV35 she has lot's of time to play in fact. She is designed in a failure way. Her chapter has interrupt by Mona. Also her move-set is good in defense but mediocre in offense, in fact she isn’t OP also lack of ultra moves(in fact Mona and late Yuske also suffer this). In story, when she join the PT it's a downfall time, it's really unfair to her as not a chance to tease a real success for first time. Also Atlus just too focus on other party member in P5, that thing too OP to own a all stats +10 gun, that’s really unfair to other member also joker also she steals over a half dialogue in games and kills Haru. For me,late party member in P3, P4 just didn’t really suffer so much as Haru even their join Level much higher than Haru..

[@helpihavebats6392]

Haru joins with a Severe level Skill and Psy is one of the better offensive Elements in the game (coz Rage). Id say shes a mixed attacker with meh Support. For her powerful join skill Triple Down is very similar to One Shot in power just with awful Crit and 70% Accuracy. She gets both Boost/Amp for her Gun and Psy Skills shes doing very well in the offensive department.

[@geno9213]

I didn't like Haru. From what I remember, I refused to use her when I played P5. Her hair bugged me lol

[@shelbybayer200]

To not have the problem of having difficulty on Stat based Social Links I just Take most of my Early game time to boost those stats and only do the Social Links that are either Connected to the Current story progression or give me Ultimate Personas that I feel like I should get as soon as possible. Just think of how much time you stress on completing Social Links the whole game but there is a Social Link you can't even start specifically because your Points in a Social Stat is to low

[@helpihavebats6392]

@@shelbybayer200 yeah but then you don’t really get as much benefit out of the Social Link stuff in the early/midgame where its more impactful (or in 5 you dont get access to as many Confidant Abilities). Social Stats by themselves don’t benefit the player for the dungeons. Its also not really hard to get a specific Social Stat up especially in the late game where you generally have more options.

[@scopez7203]

I understand points in your video but it generally has a problem with what you're calling a late game party members. Because most of the ones you bring up are honestly closer to mid game than late game (with the exception basilio). Haru in the royal edition comes up exactly in the midpoint of the game and is not even close to the last party member since there's two after her which gets most of the stuff that you suggest to improve them. This honestly just comes down to bad writing for haru and not anything to do with her placement in the game. She just didn't get the focus which is way more important than when you get into the party. Naoto is probably the best one on the list and she actually comes the latest but even she still gets three to four dungeons. She's plot relevant basically the entire time if anything she's closer to basilio than anyone else on this list. I don't think there's any correlation to late game Party members being worst written. If we're talking about the time frames you bring up a character like aigis which is the fan favourite of 3 would be in this category. I think it's just all personal preference and honestly in my opinion characters that come early are lot worse because they're so early that they just irrelevant for 90% of the game because they've already had there stories make them feel like waste and filler like (sorry) yukiko

[@Egeslean]

Ken is a terrible character. Full stop. We lost an actually good character for that PoS kid who has no business being part of the group...and he's just so fucking annoying. Best doggo though....just wasn't worth it to put him in the party, but he's great.

[@tokyobandz3307]

Only disliking because of the metaphor spoilers, had to end video early.

[@btwimmax]

1:52 i said ken lol

[@jesserivera2043]

Persona 3 in my opinion felt like it had too many vignettes of scenes that had a weird cohesion, so Shinjiro doesn't feel as impactful as the game thinks he is. But I think that's because I've played four and five first, and they had a chance to improve on the dialogue and scene direction. On the other hand, I absolutely love how the final party members contributed to the story in four and five. They both represented an expansion of scope in their respective games, as well as introduced deeper stakes. Haru's story showed the consequences of mishandling the gifts and Metaverse. Naoto's story arc introduced a more analytical approach for the investigation team, or emphasized that the conflict got to the point where law enforcement is involved first hand. If these characters didn't join the cast, the overarching conflicts would not have been resolved. On the other side of the spectrum, I do realize that a bulk of their development was showcased in the enhanced re-releases, which makes me realize that they do need to be featured more.

[@shelbybayer200]

Also complaining that you need to play a literal Technically designed as a SEQUAL game to get more Character development. That's the freaking point of Sequels to add to already established characters and add new ones.

[@shelbybayer200]

The Late Game party member happens SPECIFICALLY because of where they Join you in the Story. Having them right away defeats the Purpose of their Story arc. For them to not join you late game they have to show you the Problem or Storyline that that specific character is going through at the very start. The point is It's not a "Problem" at all. People just want a fast Straight to using the Character's skills excuse to make the STORY unneeded because The character is already there they don't need a character arc. Technically, if they change it at all it will make it that there is no need to have their Story in the game at all.