The Problem With Paragons

[@Hbomb]

What changes (if any) do you hope are made to the Master Builder?

[@jimmysta2348]

Honestly not sure

[@Mizuro1011]

Idk too

[@LimeInDisguise]

So that all paths are someone integrated because its only really using top path and kindaaaaa middle path

[@KogasaTatara514]

An activated ability where you can select a tower to receive the overclock after each round, rather than himself. Not using/unlinking the ability lets him overclock himself.

[@S11ushie]

make it an actual support paragon, not another tower that deals damage just in a different way. id like to see each of the turrets it deploy possibly give a buff or serve some sort of support role, maybe if even just one of the turrets could provide support it would be more fun.

[@drcgaming4195]

i think the main issue is that the only people getting paragons are those that are farming with the sole purpose of getting a paragon, and at that point they know exactly what paragon they want. this means that for casual players, theres no experimentation as paragons are essentially off limits in a normal game

[@mathematiciantim3439]

Imo that’s the whole point of paragons. They are freeplay and boss event DPS machines like the VTSG. No one expects to be able to get a VTSG in a normal game either.

[@blueyandicy]

@@mathematiciantim3439 But a VTSG is the best tower in the game. It has no competitors. Meanwhile paragons have FIVE competitors, so variety SHOULD matter.

[@danamouyal8175]

Well no I always go for a paragon and I'm always able to get it on like round 60 unless it's a boss game I need to defend but It stuns my farming

[@user-to7ds6sc3p]

@@blueyandicy Paragons have variety. Yes Dart is the go to for Bosses, but falls of on maps without walls. And Boat is the best for lategame. The Paragons have different usecases, but since they are all good damage for space multiple if them get used in lategame/tier5 elite runs.

[@hungrymonke2880]

@@blueyandicy it's honestly harder to come up with such variety when all paragon are essentially the best damage towers in the game. But props to ninja kiwi for doing the best they good with that, cus the engineer paragon is a good mix of variety anyway. 👍

[@Clutchamor]

So I actually had a chance to talk with the Lead Game Designer Rohan, and he mentioned to me and KhemoSwavey and DotTrev that they don't look at Engineer as a "Supportive" support tower, but rather a DPS tower. But definitely agree with the changes you suggest. I kind of wish Master Builder was built a little differently as well!

[@Hbomb]

That is very interesting. I'd be fine with Paragons being DPS only, but I feel like they'd be missing the special element of BTD towers if they only go for damage. Maybe (and hopefully) I'm wrong on this one. :) Ty for the insight

[@silverpotato4272]

@@Hbomb the problem with paragons being dps only is that it’s hard to have variety in strictly dps towers. The only real thing you can change is how they do damage (and maybe whether they specialize in single target or AOE). Lack of variety also makes them really hard to balance, since paragons will rarely have specific scenarios they do better in (besides dart paragon doing well with walls).

[@jamesknapp64]

When is next 3 buc podcast being uploaded

[@Clutchamor]

@@Hbomb Yeah, I fully agree with you on that, otherwise we're just gonna have a bunch of paragon towers who are only ranked based on their damage per cost value, as opposed to extra unique utilities they could provide!

[@Clutchamor]

@@jamesknapp64 Should be within the next day or two :)

[@aatwob]

The idea that you proposed with the paragon traps counting towards the next paragon's pops is amazing. Another idea would be to try to fight the notion that all paragons have to be super strong in popping bloons. Since it's a support tower, maybe remove a lot of the popping power it has and focus more on the support element. Kinda like an overclock that you can use only once per round (twice at d100) but stacks infinitely. Would be a breath of fresh air if every new paragon that came out wasn't a popping machine.

[@Hbomb]

Thanks, and I agree. Making them DPS only would take the 'special' part of BTD out of it that I love. Hopefully I'm wrong about that though because NK has made great decisions so far

[@maxmanchik]

Although, I think there shouldn't be any buff that stacks infinitely. Ultraboost aura? Ok. But infinite stacking ultraboost is just too unfair

[@Subt0nix]

@@maxmanchik i disagree, if your paying that much for a paragon that doesnt do much damage itself then infinite stacking isnt to unfair as long as its linear. Obviously exponential would be unfair but linear you will still lose to the bloons probably not any faster aswell.

[@maxmanchik]

@@Subt0nix No, infinite buffs are just plain unfair and completely breaks the balance of the game. Like, that means that you don't even need to have a high tier paragon to get such ability, meaning you can get it for as cheap as possible and then use it to infinitely buff VTSG, which is already completely busted

[@plompedu]

I personally don't agree simply because top path engineer is known for leaning way more into DPS than actual support. I would make it ⅓ DPS and ⅔ Support to stay true to the actual base tower

[@lozzar1069]

The paragon trap doesnt even need to touch bads. If it did traps just combine it with navarch who can take out bads and those are probably the only 2 towers you will ever need

[@thegodlycat]

then just stall everything thats not bads with impale, bloons crush, moab press, etc. and let the boat get more time to hook them in. (but yeah they shouldn't touch bads)

[@tacotown4598]

it depends on the actual statistics of the trap though. navarch only works twice per round, and there are often 50+ bads per round. so the trap would have to handle the 48+ other bads

[@lotreak]

Not really, after a while there’s more than 2 bads

[@po3794]

navarch hook is capped to twice per round

[@dhearyzikrimuhammad_0366]

My thoughts on the trap is somewhat similar to Hbomb, but make it work like bloonchipper It sucks up BADs but takes a long time to digest it, dealing percentage based damage depending on the paragon degree every tick and it's pop count can be used like the paragon totems from geraldo

[@sensibledog09]

Feel like specifically for the boomer paragon,it should get an ability like perma charge,making it attack faster or make it so that the paragons can be maxed out with pops,since glaive lord regrow farming is the best way to get a high degree paragon

[@laisksjjsjs566]

It's probably one the most balanced paragon unlike navarch and dart monkey being way too good and ascended shadow and master builder being slight bad glaive dominus is pretty decent right now the cost and damage are all balanced

[@SomeCowguy]

@@laisksjjsjs566 wait, shadow got nerfed? Last i played non-casually, shadow was insane

[@laisksjjsjs566]

@@SomeCowguy tell me which one is better navarch or shadow and when did I say shadow was nerfed?

[@RipePan]

@@laisksjjsjs566 in bosses navarch is way better cause of its high level but at both degree 1 the ascended shadow is probably a bit stronger

[@laisksjjsjs566]

@@RipePan oh so you are telling me that you are ignoring every single factor in the game excluding both in level 1 in bosses no navarch is still stronger cause the ascended is gonna just throw his bomb on the boss and let the other strong bloon through. And it's cheape4

[@ishanballa8017]

I really like the idea of letting the engineer paragon be able to get degrees for the next paragon since he is called the Master Builder

[@wingdingfontbro]

An idea I had was a paragon for the village "a world of monkeys" it would be this sort of black ball that looked like a universe, getting brighter and having more particle effects around it as it leveled up. It would be purely supportive with a little fun attack just like primary expertise. It's main special ability would be to provide boosts to towers in mass, the more the better. So the more farms you have the more money they'd make or for damage towers the more damage they'd do. Same for paragons. This could make the main focus trying to get things in mass. Blastpopulous could stun a limited amount of towers, so he'd emphasize getting a big bulk of towers to tank his stunning while the others attack. You could also attribute towers to the village paragon to give buffs relating to that tower to all towers universally. SM would give attack speed buffs, dart would give cost reductions (he is cheap) and sniper would give range buffs and camo detection. Just a few ideas I had for a support paragon.

[@SomeCowguy]

@@wingdingfontbro but with that idea, dark knight spam would be the most op strat ever

[@PeeperSnail]

Honestly I don’t mind the paragon power creep, but IMO the Engineer paragon was a huge letdown. It doesn’t feel like the paragon of a support tower in the slightest. It’s nice that it overclocks itself automatically, but couldn’t it do that for other towers in its range, since it doesn’t have global reach? What happened to the bloon trap? The cleansing foam? Also not really an issue but I also think it’s the least cool-looking paragon (say what you will about the Boomerang, but he’s got drip).

[@determinedhelicopter2948]

I would be willing to take 'foam tipped nails' that can strip camo and fortified even from ddts

[@EpicBob3664]

I think it could be neat if one of their turrets sprayed cleansing foam, and another sucked in Bloons to represent the trap (think bloonchipper but on a cool down and no stalling)

[@master_of_glaives]

what do you want from a cleansing foam really ? and what do you want from the traps eat bads ??? if they add it it will be a xxxl trap but eat way more than normal the only change i want from this guy that he overclock guys in range and stacks with ultraboost and overclock but other than that he's very well done btw ninja kiwi made these update for free not a dlc's so keep that in mind

[@georgecunningham562]

@@master_of_glaives bros argument is these updates are free like what? We payed for the game we expect good content. Not that unreasonable

[@master_of_glaives]

@@georgecunningham562 bro we just paid 4,99 dollars it's like nothing bro the game on playstation and xbox like paid for 60 dollars and they have DLC's and ninja kiwi give us 40 updates that change tha game completely for free like that's really good deal

[@foxxbaker]

I think the paragon needs to reflect all 3 routes, still kinda mad about the engineer paragon, because now I’m worried about Druid paragon (favorite monkey is Druid, love avatar of wrath strategies)

[@jasonchiu272]

Don't worry. The druid paragon will reflect all three paths because it will shoot one dart every 1 dartillion years.

[@batmanderp-lt8kx]

I thought nk said that paragons will not always be all 3 paths of a tower

[@PlatinumMage]

@@batmanderp-lt8kx when? that goes against the whole essence of what paragons are supposed to be

[@az1202]

@@batmanderp-lt8kx They said it won’t incorporate every aspect of a tower, like engineer not having traps and foam.

[@kribyy7784]

@@az1202 thats not an "aspect" thats literally an entire upgrade path. There are 3 paths and 3 tier fives, if a paragon is the combined might of those 3 paths, then how is it fair to exclude an entire path...

[@blinkoncebuddiesreveluv6961]

I dont play boss events anyways, paragons are something I get when I go for highest round records and so I still get hyped when new ones are announced cause theyre always fun to mess around with

[@ericyang1401]

Honestly the idea of the "paragon trap" for the engineer paragon is really smart, buffing the paragons would be too op and this is just a fun way of doing it.

[@David_TheSuperior]

33.0 is coming with a new Paragon, Boss and further changes, however it is to keep your expectations on the neutral side as we don't know what else is coming with.

[@theendofthestart8179]

you could just have NO expectations for BONUS content on a game you ALREADY have.

[@nexus2691]

@@theendofthestart8179 not a single game made currently lives without constant updates to keep it going. You aren't some saint for being passive and having this pov, you're simply ignorant to business. You think this game would last without updates? Within the first couple months I had well over 10 black borders while there were like 3 heroes and nothing else. Think you'd be playing rn? I stopped for years

[@unovi8141]

@@theendofthestart8179 I'm not sure what you have a chip on your shoulder for

[@theendofthestart8179]

Im not saying NK should stop doing updates, im saying people should quit having unrealistic expectations for them, only to be disappointed when the update isn't exactly what THEY wanted.

[@unovi8141]

@@theendofthestart8179 I mean I agree but I'm pretty sure that's not what OP was getting at

[@tpeter4240]

I would really appreciate if one of the next few paragons were a much cheaper and weaker option instead of gradually getting more expensive/powerful. Add a 100-150k wizard paragon that’s good for the early tiers. I think this would really help with the power creep problem.

[@tomkeane4665]

That would only make it worse. That tower would work as a bridge tower between normal monkeys and a proper paragon. You could spend your 150k on that paragon and then do nothing but farm and save up for the better paragons. The high price of the paragons is stopping the power creep because they are pretty much locked to super late game

[@Felix-sl2hw]

Honestly a 400k wizard would be good imo, it could be a little better than dart/boomer but weaker than ninja and be focused around a good tier 3 elite ranked kill. I also think it shouldn't have an ability, because it's been a while since we've got a non-ability paragon

[@StrikerX-]

Really like your idea for the engi paragon trap. In a general sense, paragons should exemplify the best features of a tower without being obligated to incorporate the tier 5 ability. With the engi they put in pin and that was fun enough for me.

[@Hbomb]

Thanks! And I like the 'mega' pin too. I just think involving all T5s would be cooler. But maybe I'm wrong on this one :)

[@sparklefulpaladin]

I think it would also be cool for the Engi to be able to place its trap anywhere, regardless of whether or not it is within range.

[@sythrus]

My idea for the builder would be to have each of the sentries do something different, where one would keep the sentry spawning (top), one would buff towers around it while placing foam (middle) and the last would be able to place multiple XL traps around itself (bottom). That way it keeps its cool sentry concept while also meshing them into the other paths

[@tinfox2]

For the Master Builder, I'd completely rework the mega sentries. The green sentry now sucks up bloons, generating a bit of money and also power for the Master Builder (replacing its self-overclocking). It can suck up BFBs, DDTs, and under effortlessly, but ZOMGs take a little while to suck up, and BADs are immune. The Blue Sentry now shoots electrically charged nails, and has a lightning effect that essentially overclocks nearby towers to a small extent. The red sentry can stay as is, it fits.

[@bluekirby_64]

I hope NK takes their time with updating Master Builder and gives him what he needs to call himself a Paragon. I want my favourite tower to be done justice, and the glorified top path with little to no support he got last month was not enough.

[@LetsPlayCrazy]

I have a SUPER EASY fix for this whole problem: Instead of round 120, make the boss go to round 200 on elite. Honestly it solves all problems. Now we have the dart paragon early, then ppl can chose between glave or engi which can overclock paragons (instead of BAD trap) or even sun god and then a 1 million pricetag Ninja or Navar for late. Honestly it is the obvious route to take.

[@Voduke789]

Very interesting topic. I believe that there is room for Ninja Kiwi to partly solve the difference in utility between some paragons through monkey knowledge. After all, there are still some unspent points every max level player has. Maybe some knowledge points could decrease the gap between the usefulness of the Boomerang paragon and the Dart Paragon, such as allowing the price of tier 5s to factor into the degree, so that Boomer isn’t stuck at degree 1 without a huge cost sink. As for power creep, I expect the Ace Paragon to push this even further given how costly and huge its tier 5s are. I think what we really need are more bosses that actually require the strengths of the other paragons. Bloonarius is the only boss that needs high pierce, and for the APM, it usually suffices; there's no need for Glaive Dominus at tier 3. The other 2 bosses, Lych and Vortex, are nothing but damage sponges asking for high single target DPS. We need more reasons for the strengths of niche paragons to matter and be useful. Vortex is the closest thing we have to that because it requires long range, but that has a problem too since it has a larger AOE than most paragons, forcing you to just use the global range attacks exclusively. It's going to be a big task to get everything just right.

[@wingdingfontbro]

An idea I had was a village paragon which would boost towers based on how many towers are present. This would directly counter Blastpopulous, he would stun some towers, then you have a back up of 50 tier 5s and two other paragons to back that up as they spank Blast's butt.

[@zoragyt]

Dude... the editing put into this is amazing seriously impressive content

[@Hbomb]

Thanks! The editor went all out on this one

[@facelessperson]

I try... a bit too hard.

[@Srelathon]

I think it’s also important to mention Geraldo who was introduced in the middle of all of this with how ridiculously strong he is, making it easier to save for the stronger Paragons, as well as his Paragon Totems which is another way to get easy levels for Paragons. I suppose that’s just another element of the insane power creep in this game and will be addressed in the other video you mentioned.

[@tacotown4598]

paragons don't actually powercreep much rn. vtsg is still the strongest, and by a long shot. plus, who ACTUALLY cares about freeplay

[@D4rknessInc.]

@@tacotown4598 bro i care about free play. Im tring to get to round 500. Already have 4 paragons just need the boomer, i want that bragging rights

[@tacotown4598]

@@D4rknessInc. if you want a highest max round, max buffed t5s are much better than paragons. get a max buffed vtsg, sentry paragon, mad, aow, gmn, pmfc, tt5, etcetera, plus max buffed support. run adora in singleplayer. if you REALLY want to get r500, ur gonna need friends. get 3 true sun gods, a vtsg, 2 brickells, adora, last hero is kinda up to you, but if you really want to sweat it, buy-resell ezili to lvl 20 to hex multiple bads. unfortunately if you want a really good highest round you're out of luck. the best oportunities for those were when the addvanced challenges with 5% modifiers were around, or when multiple paragon bug was around. unfortunately, both are gone, so you'll just have to wait to get that sweet, sweet r1000 max round statistic

[@D4rknessInc.]

@@tacotown4598 ye ik i already have all that u mentioned. Im just playing singleplayer so im guessing the max round prob 350 or something

[@D4rknessInc.]

@@tacotown4598 but when all paragons are in the game prob 500

[@seven_chords]

i think the main problem is that the game is now balanced around paragons, imho everything in the game (except paragon related achievements) should be doable without a single paragon involved, including elite bosses, balance the game around the regular towers, allow for more variety in strategies, rn if you want to do elite bosses or sometimes even with regular bosses every single strategy involves at least one paragon, even if we have different paragons i see it as the same strategy over and over and over again, just paragon here, paragon there, paragons everywhere. it's honestly frustrating that paragons have become required for certain parts of the game.

[@hyperfairy7779]

I feel like paragons should be able to do extra damage to BADS for use in normal games, Also, I feel like we need more Bloons to pop in order to get higher degrees on paragons earlier so all paragons could be used for in boss events early on.

[@baderakai992]

I honestly think the ability of the navarch of the seas Should let it do double damage to bad for like 15 seconds As one shooting a bad is too busted

[@hyperfairy7779]

@@baderakai992 that would be cool, or give the ship itself a bit more range for a short time

[@baderakai992]

@@hyperfairy7779 ye double damage and double pierce and idk like 40% range increase

[@baderakai992]

Then it won't be very op

[@thebrownman5302]

@@baderakai992 Well yeah, but that would be very situational

[@Thebiggestgordon]

I love your idea about the trap acting as sacrifice for other paragons. If I had my way I’d do these things: -Make Navarch ability cooldown much much longer at lower levels and decrease as you level up -Make each dollar generated worth 1 pop instead of 4 for levelling -Make master builder have a radius where it ultraboosts other towers each round -Give the laser sentry a lock option -Add a visible indicator to the MB overclocking himself so you can see what level he is -Add your paragon power XXXL trap idea -If it’s precedent that paragon abilities can affect BADs, then glaive dominus should knock BADs back slightly with moab press. -APM is fun, don’t touch him, except fix the instant lvl 30 bug

[@arttukettunen5757]

Glue paragon and ice paragon should get paragon power from also how much bloons have been slowed. Since not all the paths do damage, this would be another great option, these would probably accumulate power together somehow until the combined max.

[@determinedhelicopter2948]

How would they keep track of that...

[@Cunny_Lord]

It'll probably take a shit ton of extra codes I imagine

[@Demopans5990]

@determinedhelicopter2948 Keeping track of "assists"

[@Erin-eb2os]

I love your idea of the Master Builder trap getting sacrificed by other Paragons!

[@YellowPikmin_AreTheBest]

I think the Master builder’s plain DPS should be slightly nerfed if it gets traps, but my idea for a trap would be a powerful trap that could eat a lot of ZOMGs, and have an ability to make a new ultra-powered trap that can eat a BAD, but it fills up right after. Also for the Overclock aspect, I think it should have a passive ability of buffing the effectiveness of the Overclock/Ultraboost

[@moomoomachines7193]

The Master does incorporate the bottom path with it’s pin Main attack. It’s not the big trap that everyone was hoping for, but still bottom path nonetheless

[@555Soupy555]

Thank goodness it wasn't a 5-0-0 and they had the grace and majesty to give us a 5-0-2

[@peacefulsoysouce2869]

I think the paragon degree convertion trap is a great idea, but it would absalutly be overpowered because it would buff all the paragons by giving them higher degree, this buffs all paragon by the same amout so although this dose solve the trapless problem it dosen't solve the meda problem so I think the trap should give more degree the lower the original degree is, this way of it's used on a dart paragon that was orignally going to be degree 30 it would only boost it to 35 but a boomer paragon that was originally going to be 0 would become 20 and a boat paragon that was orignally going to be 50 would only be buffed to 51, and maybe make it so that when you use this ability you can also choose from a smal discount on the paragon and refound a small amout of money, or it can also give the paragon a small permenemt buff, the refound would not be added as power but because this way it would be getting a lower original degree which means the trap's degree power buff is stronger, if the player choose the discount then this could encorage new player to get use to getting low degree paragon before round 100 and this could prepare them for bosses because bosses are extremely diffrent compared normal bloons and some new player would just not play them because they think it's too hard, if the player choose the smal buff then this could encorage the more """EXTREME PRO GAMING""" player to make new meda stratagies to optimize degree farming with this, but this system is absalutly over powered if the paragons are as powerful as they are now so NK need to nerf the hell out of all the paragons I think this way the paragon system would be way more complicated to use effectively but if optimized paragons are will just as powerful as they are now, I think this could combat the current meta and encourage the player to invent and optimize new strategies by creating a learning curve on the paragon system this would make the new paragon system heavily based around the master builder giving buffs to other paragons but hey that's why it's a support tower

[@Bushy-guy]

6:24 here i think uou made a good point, the trap would fill up and slowly empty itself when it is full, without despawning. This could help make the trap act like a sentry like its a tower in itself, that contributes to the next paragon degree.

[@butterman59]

6:36 😬 that didnt age well with paragon cap news

[@VitaEmerald324]

I love the Paragon Totem trap idea! Maybe they could be more effective than totems since you’d probably be getting them rather late.

[@TartagliaThe_11th_McDsEmployee]

Imagine after all the towers get a paragon they add them in Battles 2 where they add a gamemode called "Boss rush" basically you either win by killing the boss early or killing your opponent while the gamemode is in Bananza too

[@dhearyzikrimuhammad_0366]

I'd say make it the defense mode of Battles 1 where you can't send bloons but you can increase income, then you can spend eco or cash to power up the opposing side's boss Maybe for 30k you can upgrade the opposing side's boss to tier 2, 100k for tier 3, and so on The towers would prolly be randomized with at least one of them being a paragon, and another being farms, and if the 1 other tower can also be a paragon, disable it So slot 1 will always be a paragon, slot 2 is random and if it can be paragon, it's paragon is disabled, slot 3 is farm I dunno though

[@FrankHenderson2]

That master builder trap idea is GENIUS! I would love to see that

[@isuckatusernames4297]

I kinda wished paragon could level up the same way heroes did.

[@yetispaghetti5754]

I feel like Paragons are great for BTD6 Veterans to challenge themself with Freeplay. Having them at all is still nice, although the balance of Price and Damage is something that will need some reworking but when we get more Paragons we should be able to see some synergies and hopefully stuff like a Glue paragon for mostly support with some damage or an Ice Paragon that takes a well rounded tower and turns it into a crazy Synergetic Hybrid that can stun while also being a damage machine. Some people make jokes about stuff like the Monkey Village or Banana farm getting a Paragon but I wouldnt mind that either, a Monkey Village Paragon would be nice, maybe being able to buff other Paragons while Having a more powerful Ballista attack (not nearly as much as other Paragons but there nonetheless), Letting towers effect BADS with effects or slows as long as beforehand it could have effected a ZOMG, Then giving every Tower within the radius a small damage and attack speed buff, and having a even more powerful buff ability that lasts multiple rounds, For the bottom path being included it could probably have something like a map-wide auto-pickup for any form of money generation, Sniper Drops, Heli Drops, stuff like that. Idk either way Im hyped for whatever is next

[@gebcrafter]

Something you mentioned briefly - it's so hard to balance things that are so far in lategame because if you are farming optimally, you can spend the money for APM, you might as well just get an Ascended Shadow instead. Minor damage increases don't really shake out and even with the fraction of towers as paragons that exist now some are totally useless.

[@franswal1214]

I will say, ever since the boat paragon was introduced. I haven't used him for boss events after I saw him solo Bloonarius Elite tier 5. A good boss event would have players go back to the old strats for Elite bosses. Meaning Elite specific restrictions, Mad and temple with damage amplifiers for tier 3, Vtsg for tier 4, etc. Another good way to balance the boat paragon problem is to make every 100$ count as 1 pop. There is no fixing the Apex unless the MK point is removed or changed sadly. Paragon levels could also maybe count Abilities as more level food for higher degrees to balance out things

[@Factsfromjimmy181]

This man makes such amazing videos. The fact that he makes his videos only as long as necessary makes me respect him so much and the way he isn't afraid to make videos less than 8 mins is amazing.

[@urgadurga]

might be a weird comment but going back and seeing your older videos, and being able to basically see a before and after of you with a beard, you grew an incredibly good beard, you really pull it off man.

[@MutantDestroyer]

I would love to see an XXXXL trap that could swallow one BAD per trap, having that much power would be chaotic Balance?! WHAT'S THAT?!!

[@britemite9042]

Maybe a 60 sec cd

[@YanYanicantbelievethistakenffs]

My idea for the overclock inclusion was that it has a ability that works like the techbot and allows you to max out (over loxk +ultraboost) the selected tower untill you change the thether to another tower.

[@leodavinci9682]

If Paragons were only a side act in every patch, like new skins, they would be great. but they add 0 replayability to the game and therefore not much new content. They really butchered the game when stopping to add new towers and deciding to nerf every tower to the ground. Chimps is so boring when all u can do on harder maps are perma spike strats

[@paexghostio]

Do you even play this game ? Towers have been receiving more buffs than nerfs since 2018. If you look at chimps guides from Jajajosh, Spiffy, Chom Chom, Chillzi... You will be amazed by how many combinations there are to beat expert chimps. Instead of complaining kids and casuals like you should just git gud👶🍼

[@theendofthestart8179]

maybe all YOU can do is perma spike, get better.

[@mathematiciantim3439]

Pspike isn’t even the best strat for true experts lol.

[@salivablueberryguts7740]

I have a pretty fun idea for the paragon trap. Since the bloon chipper is confirmed to not be coming to bloons, they can add a big bloon chipper as a trap, it would also be a cool easter egg if the bloon chipper on scrapyard would get sacrificed into the paragon (just an animation ofc, wont buff the paragon). Basically, it does big damage to all bloons and tosses them back, but it has durability with bads and will explode after sucking in a couple bads (maybe increasing with degree?!?!) after it explodes you need to use an ability to bring it back. this way it is the only way to stall bads while not being too op with the ability to insta kill them

[@TOOTHBRUSHDUCK]

Making 100 degree paragons acquirable normally, with my personal suggestion being let paragons buy tiers once they're placed, would already go a long way to making them much more worthwhile in normal singleplayer

[@theendofthestart8179]

Paragons were never meant to be worthwhile.

[@hungrymonke2880]

@@theendofthestart8179???? Since when were paragon never worthwhile???? Besides, making bugaboo tiers would turn the already God like paragon into literally, I don't know how to explain it. Lvl 50 paragon are already god like, letting us buy Saud tiers would break the games difficulty as it is.

[@theendofthestart8179]

@@hungrymonke2880 there is literally 0 reward for going past round 100 in normal single player, which is what the original comment was talking about.

[@alfierowenaw5827]

I think this should be for the Master Builder • Overclock should be an AOE Burst That Overclocks other towers around it from time to time, Kinda like 0-4-0 Super Monkey Ability l • The Trap would be able to suck up MOAB's for a certain time so that it constantly collects RBE rather than sit there being a Liability • Add one more Turret that is a Monkey Farmer that Collects Banana's and add 20% of that Revenue per Banana Collected and added more Radius • Or that Turet can Collect Banana's from Farms and Shoot out peeled banana's on the ground that stuns a bloon or blow back a baloon Tell me if it's too much or remove one or two of them then it's enough

[@waterrr6332]

If the Master Builder was the only Paragon in the game, this would be op, but in the current situation of paragon I think its balanced

[@inftriangle]

if a bloon trap was implemented for the engine pagaron maybe give it a lot more bloon capacity such as doubled the amount of RBE from big trap. or be able to place 2 or 3 big traps. it would then be even more of a support tower because late rounds you are getting a lot more BAD's so then you may want to engie towards the back to clean up. or another idea. if you have certain paragons on the field maybe they debuff or even disable other paragons. say you have APE on field. you would not be able to get a ninja paragon down or the ninja would have less damage. now from a coders perspective this would be something that would be a PAIN to add and maintain.

[@DankZank]

the idea of support paragon helping level other paragons is BIG BRAIN keep up the great work

[@Factsfromjimmy181]

amazing content keep up the good work

[@noahlebaron729]

I think my favorite idea for the trap I've seen is being able to set it to eat all of a single type of bloon other than bads. Like, you set it at the end of the track and choose ddts, and it just never fills up, but only eats ddts.

[@Hbomb]

That is a really cool idea!

[@MisterSkullium]

I saw this somewhere online where someone suggested the traps would make an explosion dealing massive damage (like the paragon sentries) after being filled

[@oskiboski8]

skill issue

[@lukazfox_lol]

congrats! now we have a paragon limit and i cannot have fun in freeplay

[@awesomedavid2012]

I'm really just waiting for the farm paragon. That will change everything

[@LaserZman]

The engineer does have the trap path, but it’s in the form of pin

[@JoelTheParrot]

i mean, for what it's worth, the dreadbloon is supposed to have immunities to certain classes of towers, which will hopefully add paragon variety. outside of that, more gamemodes where paragons are available and have different necessities/strategies that could maybe help

[@weirdooftheyear]

Speaking of problems with _things_ in Bloons, you should definitely do a video about the problems with bosses. They definitely have a lot of problems, such as their extremely repetitive nature, as well as the fact that a boss always feels the same, no matter what map or, even restrictions.

[@captainphoton1693]

Another idea for the over clock is that the ability boost every tower in a zone and paragon too but slight 10% or 20% speed or range Idk. For the trap the paragon idea is super cool, I can totaly imagine having all paragon to a decent degree in only one game with this. But it could also be something like it eat an infinite amount of bloons, and get only filled up by moab or higher. Now the thing that would make it not the ultimate cleaner would be to make it only make money and paragon power by eating moabs or higher, so it's would be a choice to make. Sad part is once you are done building paragons it become brain dead again but it's at least limited by the tower range.

[@aaronerror6819]

Master Builder trap Throws the trap into a MOAB, ZOMG, BAD, or Boss and causes balloons that would normally pass through the large balloon to be absorbed into it for X amount of time. Upon expiration, deal damage equal to RBE absorbed by the trap. X is dependent on Paragon level with diminishing returns. Would make for an interesting ability, gotta time it, and has the double effect of allowing your damage towers to focus the boss while also turning enemies into damage... for a time.

[@hanchen267]

you have edited the subtitles, this is fantastic!

[@brendaharshaw565]

The editing was very good

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

Ok, I just had a cool idea for a boss that makes glaive dominus viable. Compared to other paragons, the boomer paragon excels at group damage. However, bosses are single enemies, and all you really want for them is single target damage, leaving the dominus in the dust. So, why not make a boss that splits at every skull? Every segment has a set ammount of hp and becomes invincible after taking enough damage until the other segments also die, at which point every part splits again. Each segment inherits the hp the boss had before rather than getting a portion of what was left (like slime boss in slay the spire), so to compensate the boss has low starting hp seeing as every skull the boss effectively doubles it's current hp. The dominus would shine here as the group damage and ricochet would hit every part of the boss equally, completely shredding it's low hp pool and effectively ignoring the splitting gimmick.

[@hellboy19991]

since all paragons have pretty crazy pierce it would also necessitate them no longer increasing in pierce per tier and nerfing their base even.

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

@@hellboy19991 you could have them spread out a bit, most paragons are focused more in one area while glaive ricochet can hit from much longer distances.

[@chronicle_4]

1. Introduce another MK for boomerang similar to the extra crossbow master. That will solve the dart or boomer paragon issue. 2. Make buffing for engi paragon a thing, but only for paragons and sun gods. 3. Increase the cost of Boat paragon to 600k. 4. Slight increase in range for Ninja paragon would be nice. I believe this is the most balanced paragon. Tbh, NK putting limitations in the recent boss events are annoying as it forces you to play a certain way instead of being creative.

[@shinystarmiestudios4179]

Which of the Tier 5 upgrades would you make be able to have two of?

[@chronicle_4]

@@shinystarmiestudios4179 probably the middle path as it is the most balanced. Bottom path is way too strong and can easily accumulate pop counts as it can permanently stall moabs while top path is too weak for late rounds that it cant accumulate pops.

[@wedmunds]

The problem with paragons is they do the same damn things. They all have huge damage, huge AOE, and huge range. All the other towers have strengths and weaknesses, but the only unique part of paragons is their cost.

[@crackersphdinwumbology2831]

The fact that VTSG is significantly weaker than even a lvl 20 dart monkey paragon is insane and stupid to me. If they want to fix Paragons, they need to address these: 1) Paragon building is unnecessarily complicated. 2) Paragons are too strong. All of them. 3) Paragons require untennable income. My solution: -Paragons do not store or scale with pops, upgrades, or total cash invested--they are made with the initial cost, and all tier 5s. -They all start at level 1. They scale levels at rates depending on their initial price, just like Heroes. Geraldo can place totems that, whenever placed within range of a Paragon, give it a boost of experience. -Level 1 paragons should be stronger than their current form, and scale much slower. -They ban you from building any other Tier 5 towers of its type.

[@acedemonic142]

One thing that might be a bit broken but risky for the engie is if he gets an ability where he puts down a trap that insta kills everything other than bosses, BUT, it can only pop 1 balloon. So you either get a BAD or you get a red balloon and poof, it's gone

[@maby191]

The way I would change the engineer paragon is I would leave the tower itself the same (albeit without the self ultraboosting) and change its ability instead. Where the first time you use it, it spawns the red turret, the second time you use it, it spawns some kind of 'radio beacon' that grants an overclock buff to nearby towers, and the third time you use it, it spawns a trap that can eat a RBE slightly higher than 1 BADs worth (The idea being you need to use the ability 3 times each time you want a trap, so its not as reliable as navarch's ability, nor can it kill a fortified BAD). That being said however, I do like the idea of the trap being a sacrifice for the next paragon you get instead.

[@magnificenttoxin7035]

Really cool solution with the sacraficial trap.

[@How19.]

make the engi paragon spawn a bloonchipper, nerf damage of the sentries a small amount, nerf damage of the guns as well, and have a 10% attack speed buff to all towers on screen, piece of cake. the bloonchipper "trap" sucks in 50 moab-class bloons, except bads. it's an ability that has a crazy long 2 minute cooldown, and while the ability isn't active, the engi paragon just spawns regular xxxl traps.

[@just_oliwer4581]

My idea to upgrade boomerang paragon: -The further the bloons are on the track, the higher the dps is -Spawning a short range glaive maelstrom-like passive ability every 10 seconds -Shooting glaives weaker, but splitting into smaller ones upon contact and global range -Ability: Pushes back all nearby moabs in its range (not global) slowly for 2 seconds (normal cooldown)

[@hellboy19991]

none of those would help it be much better in boss fights, maybe #1 but only if you are struggling to beat the boss to begin with.

[@dzaki8331]

Idk the first one are probably better on sniper Paragon

[@1martis1martis43]

Master builder does in a way have a bit of the bottom path, tier 3 to be exact, since he uses more than one gun :)

[@GooneyBoy07]

That bloon trap idea is genius!

[@AidanWR]

My first thought was that it could give a buff like the Elite Sniper, but maybe increasing the attack speed the further the balloons get down the track

[@normalchannel2185]

I would say that a trap ability for the engi paragon could be there. Like you click it, a massive trap covering the screen is lowered from ropes that eats up everything non bad. Then it is stored somewhere on the map( you cannot place towers over it or it will break, releasing all bloons held).

[@Ilikeajaw]

I LOVE apm, it looks cool, on certain maps its OP, it has balls of steel (literally)

[@TSUNAMI_0707]

whats your favourite paragon? i cant quite tell…

[@LiterallyMe459]

@@TSUNAMI_0707 yeah same

[@Ilikeajaw]

​@@TSUNAMI_0707I'm a skibidi sigma fanum tax rizzler, so you won't understand my opinion 💀🚽

[@darenabryant9100]

I started watching your videos and eventually wandered into this one. And I'm blown away that you think of this as a 'problem'. xD Maybe I'm just too casual a player to have earned the right to compare paragons and think one is better than another. I've only ever once been able to summon a paragon and it was a HUGE thing for me; I couldn't believe I'd managed to do it! Yet here you are talking about doing it like it's no big deal for most players, or at least like you don't think most players have very much trouble at all summoning one. When I learned the master builder existed I was kinda hyped, yes. I thought it would be fun to work towards one and see if I could unlock it. So far? No luck. I guess I'm just not really good at the game. But yes, I want these super hard to obtain, super hard to deploy units to make me feel like they were worth all the effort, as even the likelihood of my reaching one is so small it feels like fantasy just imagining me having one. I don't use whatever practice mode people use to test things out, so I'm just going on whatever I can make work in the game, and I usually lose suddenly around round 125 or so. Some of the bloons almost teleport to the end and finish my run before I can react to them, or so it seems. So seeing people talking about the effect of paragons on the game like a majority of players are deploying these things easy peasy has me laughing with incredulity. I mean I knew I wasn't super good, but round 125 is actually bad, huh?

[@caseyrules1173]

This man is a genius. I like how your mind works Hbomb and I like your videos too

[@tlsgrz6194]

I‘d make the Master Builder much cheaper. His T5s are already quite expensive (looking at you Ultraboost) and with the paragon also being really expensive, he‘s a pure lategame option, which as you said, means that he has to be a dps tower because that‘s what you need past r100. I really like your idea of the trap buffing future paragons, so I‘d try to balance the Master Builder to be something you can get as the first paragon. He‘d be less dps compared to an APM, but if you manage to hold regardless he‘d buff your later paragons with his trap and also maybe boost your eco if you build farms in his overclock-radius. That way you had the tried and tested APM, or the slightly riskier Master Builder as valid options.

[@matt60497]

Good idea. Also let us lock the purple sentry. I avoid using Master Builder because I hate that the laser follows me around when I'm collecting money and placing monkeys and I can't lock it in place.

[@gaopinghu7332]

I agree with the BAD issue (pun absolutely intended). It was made to be unthouchable by stun, slows and instakills, if that is no longer the case it's just a stronger ZOMG.

[@no-lifenoah7861]

I have an idea: what if Engie Paragon had an active ability that could increase a paragon's _degree_ temporarily? That combined with the paragon totem trap could balance the playing field among the other paragons who don't have a good way to up their degree. That personally seems like the biggest issue in paragon balancing. Also, NK could go for a meta where getting lower degree paragons is better for support while higher degree paragons do the damage. That would let stuff like Glue Paragon or Sniper Paragon work with nonparagon damage dealers, or maybe even 4th degree tower spam strats.

[@ajstoys260]

Amazing work to the editor of this video

[@joshualee7634]

wait that trap funtion you said is kind of insane thats so smart

[@elinogales]

My main problem with Paragons is that they can’t get buffed, so if something like MIB, or Alchemist will never work on them. This is largely an issue because the resources it takes to make a paragon is just stronger than the paragon itself.

[@jonathangopar9191]

Engineer Paragon Rework -Replace laser beam sentry for a sentry that deploys XXXL traps and automatically picks them up (lasts 60 secs and have 75 secs cooldown for the sake of balance) -Replace rocket sentry for a sentry that apply an ultraboost every 5 secs to a random tower in its range (lasts 60 secs also 75 secs cooldown) -Buff the damage of the plasma sentry

[@sahasmajety8857]

I would keep the engi the exact same as it is, however its ability is the trap that can take in a BAD but has a very very long cooldown. It also has cleansing foam , but it can remove fortification from bfbs moabs.

[@hamspillagernetwork9192]

The master builder incorporates more paths from the dartling gunner than the engineer.

[@ruli6871]

" locked with a crazy long cooldown " navarch of the seas cooldown: literally a few of the fastest abilities to regen and can still instakill bads

[@captainphoton1693]

I would love if by beating the first game of each difficulty you unlock extra challenges. I previously had the idea of support only and camo regrow pain, you know stuff like that. But I would also love a mode where rounds rank up super fast and you get double the money, always degree 100 paragons and cheaper too.

[@davidpruzan-jorgensen9223]

Great vid, but yeah the main issue as I see is that for casual players a new game mode where you have to beat r120 would be necessary to make paragons realistic... (ik that the elite boss ends on 120, but that's not really for casual players;))

[@jutinato9557]

Make it so that different Paragons do different amounts of damage against the different bosses. For example the glaive paragon could get a 1.5x multiplier whilest the APM gets a 0.75x multiplier

[@waterrr6332]

APM would just suck after such a nerf, just make it have a 1,00x or 1,20 Multiplier. 30 damage( To a Boss) would be enough and you want it to do 20 (To a Boss) , But I do like this idea

[@Kaltsit-]

Wait a minute, I just realized Geraldo’s shop would make the Navarch amazing for late game playthroughs to one shot BADs no matter what multiple times.

[@deathpie24]

Pretty sure even if the cool down is refreshed you still have a limited use

[@Kaltsit-]

@@deathpie24 oh yeah, I forgot there’s a limited use per round.

[@megarotom1590]

I think cost of paragons should be dependent on cost of inaccessible upgrades. Or alternatively force you to have one of each type fielded before being able to upgrade to the max level

[@Xephyra]

the master builder trap helpng build other paragons would be amazing! Thats a fantastic idea

[@alanvargas4608]

I would let the master builder to apply a random tower an overclock buff, with a chance of having an ultra boost charge every couple of seconds, in terms of the bottom path, i think it should have like a bloon chipper effect for bads, were it tries to suck them up, deals damage, then the bad escapes the trap. (It's also kind of a stun)

[@sbeve5359]

Here's what I'd do to "fix" the Master Builder: 1. Add a "Jumbo Trap" ability, it would set down a trap on a chosen location within the paragons range, and it would eat up, let's say, 50K RBE, this would make it able to trap 1 BAD before immeadiately expiring, but I wouldn't give it the ability to eat FBADs, once it expires, it would give a +150% bonus to the income that would've been generated by just popping the bloons it swallowed, this ability would have a 50 second cooldown but would slightly decrease with higher degrees. 2. Give any towers in it's radius an immeadiate and permanent +20% attack speed boost, but similar to the paragons self-overclock, it would increase as rounds went on, which I think could either be 2% every round, or 5% every 2nd round, this increase would cap at +50-60%, if a tower is placed in its range while a couple other towers are getting this increasing bonus, it would just start at the same 20% and build up at the same speed. While not as good as an overclock ability, it still allows for some strategy as players would be able to pick and choose which towers to put within its radius. To compensate for it's increased power, I would increase it's price by plus 15-20% for every mode.

[@ikiry0830]

A way to buff the trap for a Paragon version without making it eat BADs would be something like 'When the trap fills up, it spawns player-side balloons based on the pops eaten' like the Necromancer. Likely with a visual difference making them look like floating bombs or such.

[@dnl6928]

Perhaps it would release a poison foam which will give a DOT effect, remove camo, strip fortification off of weaker Bloons and blimps, and also do quite some hefty damage? Though, just making one of the guns shoot the foam would probably make this much easier.

[@AndAlsoDuogrr]

Honestly not something much to do with balance, but Ive always thought it'd be really cool if the master builders trap was replaced by a Bloon chipper, just so we have a way to get one in BTD6, but with minimal worry on balancing since it'd be a single mini tower with no upgrades or cross paths

[@kraken_slayergaming5833]

i like the idea of the paragon trap giving the money it's earned to the next paragon made, maybe make it to where it could stick around just a big longer then the XXXL trap, like maybe a round or so, that way, if you experimented and built the Engineer Paragon first, you'd have time to properly build everything else up first. additionally, another thing that NK could do is take that bananas farmed count as 4 pops each and nerf it to be like, bananas farmed count as 3 pops, 2 pops or even just knock it down to a single pop each, that way it'd make the overpowered Navarch be more reasonable as now you'd have to keep your ship farms going for longer, taking up valuable water space that you could use for other towers like Pat or the sub. It'd also fix the whole trap issue that I could see happening if you were to give those bananas farmed by the trap to another paragon being built after the Engineer Paragon, especially make it to where now, in the late game, the Boomerang Paragon might have an actual viable chance at the number 4 spot. Or, if it doesn't do that, at least make it easier to get as the 5th paragon made, as the Ninja Paragon would still likely be the more viable 3rd, with Engineer being 4th, te two swapping though depending on map length and size.

[@kritzmaker]

Really upset to see engineer be terrible for how i play, considering its my favorite tower. Personally, i want the permaboost ability to stay, even without a buff, ultraboosting towers to max FASTER would be nice, and not being able to lock the targetting of the mega sentries is a pain.