THE PROBLEM WITH "PROGRESSIVE" MUSIC...

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What is the problem with progressive music aka prog rock? Some of what I talk about:
* Classic prog bands like Return To Forever, Rush, and Frank Zappa
* Newer artists like Periphery, Polyphia, Animals As Leaders, Dream Theater and Tool
* Are guitarists ruining prog songwriting? How did Eddie Van Halen do it?
* What defines "good music"? Is a John Petrucci guitar solo better than a Green Day song?
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0:00 Intro
2:32 What is prog?
5:30 Riffs are not a song
9:00 Nobody cares how fast you can play
14:46 The Eddie Van Halen challenge

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Come hang out on our Discord! discord.com/invite/dpKTrW9Q4R

[@hank-scorpio]

Hey you've used Crystal Lake's Apollo for the generic metalcore genre twice now. They have a vast library of songs, some that are quite technical. Perhaps more research needs to be done. They aren't an architects clone etc.

[@PromykZamojski]

Fin you totally dropped the ball here. Here is exactly what you did wrong. You should of included the face reactions in the corner of the video of people like Misha Mansoor , Adam Neely, Herman Li, Sarah Longfield and all the other Prog youtubers react to all you "hurtful comments". I am outraged how not "progressive" enough of a youtuber making such an easy video. 🤣🤣🤣

[@AMPProf]

bezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz doo da looodala dooodyy berrrderrlerrderr doooo wraa wraa wraaa

[@AMPProf]

libtard the band! lol

[@martinhroch344]

@@AMPProf What is going on?

[@wadeb5042]

Lorde’s songwriting is even more impressive when you realize she is a middle-aged man in Colorado who writes songs in the bathroom.

[@alasdairgodewife8534]

That reference probably flew over everyone's head 🤣

[@ultimadum7785]

@@alasdairgodewife8534 Shure did for me lol

[@dgk6661]

Randy Marsh

[@CaH6633]

Yah yah yah I am Lorde.

[@CaH6633]

@@alasdairgodewife8534 iz south park fam lol

[@LuisFerrazMusic]

Finn wakes up on Sunday: "I wonder if there is a fandom I can piss off more than the Black Metal dudes... WAIT A MINUTE!"

[@vevand513]

😹

[@robbiedozier2840]

They hated him because he told the truth

[@venus9343]

It's funny cuz that's what a lot of prog metal fans are like They're like "black metal fans are so snobbish ugh" then they jump on people cause they dare insult dream theatre

[@leifericson923]

he probably still pissed them off with this video because he dared to call it metal

[@picomotion]

👏👏👏🙌

[@draco2864]

I think these complaints apply much more to Power Metal than Prog Metal...because I would never describe actual Prog bands like TOOL, Haken, Leprous, and Opeth as “fast guitar” bands

[@rjchristopher4039]

As someone who listens to quite a lot of Power Metal, I would say that the genre being denoted as the "fast guitar" genre isn't always true either. Quite a few of the more prominent songs by bands like Jag Panzer and Running Wild have a more "mid-paced" tempo to them. Even Helloween - who are well known for bringing up many of the lead guitar 16th note flurries that the genre is now famous for, usually have song tempos that noticeably vary from song to song on any one album. However, if you're talking about bands like Dragonforce, then I definitely agree (though that's not to say I don't enjoy some of of the bands that indulge in the more "technical" side of the genre).

[@EclipseandtheWitch]

I think that was the point he was trying to make when he mentions how "progressive" has become a label rather than a genre of music. Leprous is one of my favorite bands, same with Porcupine Tree.. but both (imo) don't really follow the Dream Theater or Periphery formula of what people think as "progressive" nowadays. I agree though, not all prog bands are like that.

[@EclipseandtheWitch]

@@rjchristopher4039 I should also mention I'm a huge power metal nerd, too. Kamelot being one of my favorite bands, and they are far from what they were back when they started. There is a surprising amount of variety in both genres, but I think Finn's just going on about the "in general" view of prog metal nowadays.

[@digitaljman5744]

PowerMetal has melody good lyrics and musical structure to embrace the ‘song’

[@jamesclawson9243]

I also feel like instrumental music is being left out of the conversation, which to me makes up half of the best prog out there, Animals as Leaders, Plini, Arch Echo, Polyphia, Intervals.

[@johnsandberg1945]

The best prog metal is all about good song writing. It just takes a little attention span to go on the journey.

[@progrockmorelikefrogc0ck157]

Yeah hes kind of bringing up alot of cherry-picked strawman arguments and I dont think he feels this way, I think he knows theres droves of artists out there who feel threatened by prog. BUT I also think prog fans ruin the genre for people. A lot of times they listen to prog because in their head, thats what smart people listen to. Its really just a completely different thing, you cant compare a Quentin Tarantino movie to an Adam Sandler movie. Both are good in their own right.

[@SM-nz9ff]

Yea, personally I think its hilarious when people like homie here tattles on himself. The punk insecurities are real, hardcore and punk can't play their shit so its always like this. What's easier than playing an 8 minute song with no hooks is trying to look cool by making fun of people more talented than you. Its done in all sorts of fields not just music. In another video on Nu Metal he says you can't judge by the middle of the road then does just that in videos like this. OFC just randomly playing isn't music but who the fuck said that lol. When you just make up a straw man and argue against an effigy of nothing its honestly a pretty hilarious self own I was laughing this whole video just at him so he did his job I guess hah. This type of strawman video is all too common, most people aren't very intelligent.

[@ezratross8998]

I agree that just because a song is complex and hard to play, that does not make it good. But the opposite must also be said: Just because a song is catchy, does not make it a good song.

[@rockguy8362]

True but people will pay and watch the catchy song compared to the complex one

[@orlock20]

A song played 10+ years after the release is probably considered a good song. A number one song forgotten a month later is probably not a good song. A modern prog song is forgotten while listening to it.

[@ezratross8998]

@@rockguy8362 I don't think anyone wants to watch the Baha Men perform "who let the dogs out" anymore...maybe at the county fair. Ok, jokes aside, like Fin said, they each have their place.

[@trism3gistus]

A song is good if you like it. Period.

[@GREENWARRI0R]

@@orlock20 commercial success isn't the only kind of success...

[@yaldabaothofgalar2618]

You really struggle to separate your own bias from objective truth.

[@jonnuanez2843]

That's most of Finn's videos.

[@yaldabaothofgalar2618]

@@jonnuanez2843 I think you mean *all* of his videos.

[@ianmartin2924]

It doesn't get more succinct and accurate than that!

[@postcode-x]

There is no such thing as "objective truth" in music.

[@drifter1993]

@@postcode-x But Finn pretends like there is

[@andrewbennett7610]

How the hell do Porcupine Tree never get mentioned in these conversations?! They’re not as heavy as the “prof metal” bands, but in terms of being progressive in tasteful, song-oriented ways, they were/are in a league of their own

[@joshparisi799]

P/t does not get enough credit.

[@ToddlerAnnihilator666]

Because then he would not be able to push his biased narrative.

[@ElectRocnicOfficial]

I am coming from Steven Wilson because I look for similar stuff. Was asking the completely same question. He is the king of prog rock. Want more of that perfection.

[@bennorrell6411]

Definitely see where he’s coming from and I see both sides of the argument. As a musician, it’s hard to see past the skill that’s being used to play the song, but sometimes it’s a little frustrating to hear someone on the radio that can barely sing, doesn’t play an instrument, has someone else write their songs, and is making insane money doing it, when their are a lot of far more talented people that get zero recognition. Guess it just comes with the territory.

[@michaelwolff7501]

You are absolutely right. Maybe Porcupine Tree is not considered as Prog Metal but more as Prog Rock. And here you it is more difficult to hide behind complicated fast and loud riffs. Maybe the issue discussed in the video is purely a Metal-related one

[@dylanarthur5526]

Many prog bands feature amazing songwriting and emphasize it over technicality (Genesis and Jethro Tull for example). You just cherry picked the most technical and flashy ones to fit your narrative better.

[@ryankalinowski1759]

This video feels like you just wanted to rant because you're tired of listening to Dream Theater every time you get in your buddy's car.

[@jessechalif2428]

Lol

[@adamg.manning6088]

@That1JPfanboy Your friend is just being a good friend, Bro.

[@TundraCH]

@That1JPfanboy he definitely thinks every DT song is like The Dance of Eternity lol

[@nissenilsson9158]

He really is not talking about Dream Theater here

[@twowheels808]

@@nissenilsson9158 he literarily said that DT sucks at writing good songs. That’s when I wrote off the video as a troll video. Yeah DT does masturbate on their instruments, but that’s their style for the past 35 years. But they can write good hooks, and choruses and melodies. Every single DT album has at least one song that could’ve been a radio hit. Verse hook, chorus all that with minimal virtuosity. But music is big business, and big business tell the masses what music they like.

[@aaronfrench5478]

If we want to talk about a lack of creativity, it's not the prog bands that are constantly suing each other for stealing hooks 🤔

[@andrewvictor5422]

Once a friend said to me "We learn to enjoy art". Some forms of art are easier to digest and become popular, some are more complex that you need to give it some time and more attention to understand what's going on. After that you decide whether you like it or not. People would just walk by a great painting, but for those who can appreciate it can stand in front of it for 20 minutes being amazed by a painting. Majority people wouldn't bother with prog, too much happening at the same time. But prog fans are people who once learned to enjoy this kind of art and become used to it

[@derekg5674]

Yeah, he doesn’t seem to understand that the fans of prog don’t want bands to be super catchy and poppy. That’s why they listen to prog. To get away from the other stuff.

[@SciFyerGaming]

15:33 I'm sorry, but you honestly can't convince me that "Royals" by Lorde is better than the "Miracle and the Sleeper" or "Change of Seasons". Has Finn actually ever even listened to Dream Theatre before? This whole video hinges on the logic that complexity doesn't always equal good songs, but the exact same could be said about catchy lyrics: catchy lyrics don't always equal a good song.

[@dominicdascoli7468]

Just because prog isn't going to progress rock into the mainstream or get other people into rock doesn't mean its bad for rock as a whole. It can exist on its own for people who enjoy it to enjoy.

[@trollolkid]

I feel like this is his point for all the genres he talks shit about, saying it won't get mainstream success or whatever when I don't think anyone really cares about that and if they do they'll start making music catered to a more mainstream audience anyway lol.

[@lancestewart6907]

​@@trollolkid I have to wonder whats more important tho, mainstream success, or staying power?... One thing cant be denied about prog bands, for the most part they stay relevant forever. Mainstream successful music scenes change like socks, whereas elite musicianship is always relevant....

[@Ramjam9000]

@@lancestewart6907 People have been paying to see Rush play live for nearly 50 years. They literally sold out concerts until they physically couldn't do it anymore.

[@nicholashouse4261]

Prog, like black metal and stoner/doom, will always have a dedicated, mostly male audience who are willing to shell out big bucks to support small bands.

[@cruizerbrony4902]

@@Ramjam9000 yeah and that was a different time.

[@nikk0k]

This just seems like an unnecessary attack on a super niche genre.

[@elimehmeti6373]

This was painful... "Riffs are not a song." By that logic, beats are not a song. By that logic, Acapella arrangements are not songs. You can't just take one thing, isolate it, say that it doesn't count. Rarely are riffs presented in isolated form. They serve a purpose: to engage the listener. Just like not every pop chorus is good, not every riff is good. In my personal opinion, some of the best riffs are written by prog artists because they find a way to make the instrument their voice.

[@ToveriJuri]

Not the first time Finn has had a really stupid opinion.

[@rodiaz6652]

Bro there is a whole universe of differences between Rush/KC/Zappa and the more recent ones

[@loki210]

Surprised Coheed wasn't in this discussion. Thats a "prog" band that absolutely understands pop sensibilities, has a punk rock ethos and background, AND exclusively writes concept albums and indulges in the occasional 10 minute sweeping epic. They're like the prototypical band showing that prog can absolutely be accessible and catchy.

[@mattcook3801]

Can’t mention a band that disproves his point... He’d find some way to shit on them.

[@dartheria7914]

Or like, any of the Prog greats like Rush, Yes, Asia, Pink Floyd, etc

[@colacp]

Finn only talks about bands that support his lies. Claiming that Dream Theater doesn't have hooks or choruses and is just a bunch of riffs is dishonest. The dude listens to CardiB and Hardcore, he wouldn't know composition if it #1 on Billboard.

[@coltonyarbro]

💯. Coheed is king.

[@LethYT]

Maybe, like seemingly half the fucking people who discuss Prog, he doesn't consider Coheed Prog (but they are)

[@jonathanw1106]

Couldn't these arguments be applied to EVERY genre of music that requires a degree of technical proficiency (Jazz, blues, classical, etc.)? I don't know that I can agree that these criticisms are fair just applied to prog. What Fin also seems to be conflating is mass and commercial appeal with artistic quality and expression. Sure Royals is catchy and memorable, but is that really the only quality that makes it more valuable as an artistic expression than a Dream Theater song? What about Gershwin or Chopin? I mean sure to someone who may not be a musician it doesn't relate as well; but claiming that Royals is a superior song because it has a catchy hook is just as narrowminded as the pop bashers. Also, Fin I hate to say it, but it is definitely NOT any easier to write a Meshuggah or Dream Theater song than it is to write the Carly Rae Jepsen hit. That's not to say you have to like the prog stuff, but bro come on you are literally doing the exact same music elitism crap that metal and prog dudes do to pop. Would you say the same thing about Jazz standards? "Oh its a bunch of saxophone wankery then some trumpets and there's like no melody line and the beat is all over the place!" Pop music isn't harder to write as music, what makes it seem "harder" by your metric is figuring out how to write something that has widespread mass appeal while being simple. The goal in pop writing is not per se artistic expression (from a pure music perspective) as much as it is commercial viability. Pop and prog are both hard to write but for very different reasons and in very different ways.

[@sixtofive]

Well said!

[@henrikswanstrom9218]

Nicely said, but I have to disagree with the last thing you said. Pop is very easy to write. What's hard with pop music is making it stand out and selling it. Any musician can write a popsong. They can probably do that in less than an hour by literally using the 4-chords of pop and standard song structure. What's hard about making pop music is the sound engineering required to make it have a radio quality sound, having a pretty face to represent the music and a singer talented enough to perform the song. Pop music is more about entertainment than artistery. It's extremely industrialized music that follows a formula, often written by the same producers over and over again. With only a little bit of musical theory and knowledge, anyone can write a popsong. However, it's not gonna sell. If Dream Theater one day decided to write a serious mainstream pop song, got Justin Bieber and Arianna Grande to sing and perform it while having Max Martin produce and mix it, I can guarantee it would be a hit played on the radio.

[@jonathanw1106]

@@henrikswanstrom9218 I agree with you, you said it much better than what I was trying to convey (I was probably being a little too diplomatic)

[@pikachu3b366m]

I'm surprised this comment has so little likes. And I'm saying this as not the biggest Prog fan myself. This is an amazing open minded comment. 👍

[@Leotardoification]

@@henrikswanstrom9218 pop music doesn't even need to stand out in order to become a hit. Have you listened to the radio lately? Most radio hits nowadays are almost identical. Also; while it's true that producing top tier pop music requires a highly skilled engineer, prog or metal or what ever is even more demanding because of the sheer amounts of everything that goes into complex music (mics, beats etc.)

[@juvedoo99]

Modern prog is a homage to Allan Holdsworth. Which is amazing, since he doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Without him we wouldn’t have Periphery, Animals as Leaders, and even perhaps Meshuggah.

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Truth

[@MetalheadNation]

I couldn’t get into 99% of modern Prog when I was younger. Once I got into Allan Holdsworth and once his music “clicked” with me, I was able to enjoy modern Prog so much more, and now many of these modern Prog bands are some of my favorite artists of all time.

[@NeilRaouf]

Allan Holfsworth was a creative genius. One of the most important artists to ever pick up art.

[@johnjohn37371]

Truer words.... Holdsworth should be a required listen/study..

[@anta40]

Probably it's interesting to note that one of John Petrucci's biggest influences are "The Als": Al di Meola, Alex Lifeson, and Allan Holdsworth. For me, the former 2 sounds like normal guitarists. Holdsworth, on the other hand, was oddity. The first time I heard him, I was like "hmmm the sax player is good". Then I realised "o sh*t it was guitar. How on earth he come with such phrasing?". After some time listening to John Coltrane, then I got my aha moment.

[@brockbaldridge7620]

Dream Theater has many many examples of great songwriting and combining their skills with truly good sounding music

[@aidanhenry2540]

Lol nah

[@HSR107]

The guys in Dream Theater can write good songs. They can also do some amazing instrumental acrobatics. What they do not seem to be able to do is put both in the same piece of music and have it fit together smoothly, without hard or jolting transitions.

[@brockbaldridge7620]

@@HSR107 there’s certainly songs I would agree with you on that. But listen to erotomania for example and see if you still think that

[@HSR107]

@@brockbaldridge7620 Thanks for the recommendation. It's been a decade since I last listened to it so it was nice to get a refresher. It's an instrumental and not a song. A song, by definition, is a poem set to music. Even then, this piece is exactly what the video was complaining about. Just a bunch of unrelated riffs thrown together as mostly a way for virtuosos to jerk their dicks for drooling fanboys. There's absolutely no attempt to explore the concept behind the title. (thinking someone is in love with you when they're not) Even in its place opening the mind beside itself suite it's still just a pointless dick flapping exercise because while its title is (very) loosely related to the themes of Voices there are no music themes or leitmotifs from Erotomania carried over into Voices (or the silent man). So, yeah, they can write some really good songs and they can do some amazing instrumental acrobatics but they can't (or don't want to) make the two work together smoothly AND they either can't (or don't want to) compose concise suites.

[@bvq330]

@@HSR107 Don't know where you got that definition but that's not what a song is. If a song is a poem set to music, how has classical music and many other genres without lyrics thrived if they're not "songs"?

[@gregnelson9335]

“Riffs are not a song” Stoner Doom would like a word.

[@itwasnotthat]

Haha totally different vibe and intent

[@eduardoGentile720]

Sleep enters the chat

[@Mynameisdaddyj]

Follow the smoke to the riff filled land!

[@KnivingDispodia]

Stoner Doom/Stoner Rock has become such an incredibly boring, derivative, cut and paste genre which I guess was pretty inevitable. But Sleep and Kyuss will always be badass

[@gregnelson9335]

@@KnivingDispodia that can be said for every single genre of music. Blues, Rock, Jazz, Grunge, Doom Metal, Rap, Pop. All of it has been beaten to death. However, it’s all about finding that sparkly gem amongst the dirt.

[@joeparkinson1237]

Whenever someone says “it’s impossible to put us into a genre”... chances are they’re prog.

[@vvvnokk8309]

or Surfbort

[@venus9343]

Ween is now a prog band

[@fjduucudjdeididi287]

@@venus9343 ahh wuhhh? I know they found a second life on the jam circuit oi didnt even kno they were making new music

[@laurisaarinen1126]

Could really be alternative tho. That would be my first thought actually.

[@xSmittyxCorex]

In my experience, at the “local” level anyhow, it usually just means they have no sense of direction and are a generic garage band without good writing OR complexity.

[@ethanm.4201]

I like how this isn't even really a criticism of Prog, more so just a handful of bands you dislike that overemphasize on guitar riffs. Yet you still had to put "progressive music" in the title to generate those outrage clicks.

[@higuk999]

Honestly who listens to a AAL song and thinks they are trying to apeal to anyone other than musicians. im more than happy as a drummer to listen to songs that push the boundaries past a 4/4 rock beat lol

[@ryanbazail]

exactly my point. These criticisms do not apply to the great classic bands that created the genre. Like Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, Frank Zappa, and many many more. Its like making a "problems with metal" video and not talking about Sabbath, Metallica and Iron Maiden and only focusing on bands like Infant Annihilator and shitty bandcamp black metal.

[@akirokitsun7585]

It's just how youtube works 🤷‍♂️

[@halaman9500]

😂

[@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459]

@@ryanbazail based. I feel like he’s talking more about math rock than prog

[@ApeOfMyIdeal]

Dunno man. I don't think anyone who listens to Tool can possibly think "what this song needs is more hooks, it just doesn't sound enough like an actual song". A lot of Tool songs area long, but they're very tightly orchestrated. It's a little bit like saying "Beethoven tried too hard, he should have unfinished more of those symphonies".

[@adamsulliva9998]

Tool is like the only prog band worth listening to

[@lakejizzio7777]

@@adamsulliva9998 You are really ignorant.

[@dylanadams1455]

Tool would be one of the exceptions though, where the songwriting is paramount. It's more like they have an affinity for the epic than massively technical songs. I mean Sober is two chords and its still my favourite Tool song. Kinda like how Pink Floyd is a lot less complex than King Crimson, Genesis etc. Both examples show Finn's point about the more song based prog bands being the biggest.

[@RandomNonsense1985]

Tool sounds like they only know how to use the lower registers of their instruments, and don't know any emotion other than anger.

[@dougk359]

Finn doesn't like Tool's fanbase, but with his taste in music he probably likes Tool's music more than he wants to admit.

[@treyxaviermusic]

At least we can rest easy knowing that prog will never be popular enough to kill rock music

[@connorpeppermint8635]

I did not expect to laugh reading these comments

[@Tecom38415]

What??? Lmao

[@orlock20]

Modern prog, because Pink Floyd and David Bowie are still fairly popular.

[@Whiskey10209]

It’s an extension of rock really.

[@summeronio9751]

Rock music will kill rock music. It doesnt even need prog's help

[@ibfreely8952]

When you're elitist but in reverse.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

I've dubbed it post-elitism.

[@ianmartin2924]

Reductionist? Or pessimist?

[@ianmartin2924]

Anti-eliteism?

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

Idiot?

[@nondescriptcat5620]

anti-intellectualism, but for music

[@DruMarshallDrums]

I've seen fans sing guitar riffs at Polyphia shows, Animals as Leaders shows and CHON shows. These riffs are hooks in and of themselves! I think your point is only valid if these bands are complaining that they aren't getting enough commercial success. But if they're happy, I say just let them be 🤷‍♂️

[@juli-qb9oe]

When AAL played in Chile the public sung (or sang? Idk) all the riffs and solos

[@youmothershouldknow4905]

PunkRockMBA: “Prog is only guitar focused” Rudess/Banks/Emerson….: “Huh?”

[@kol9495]

Or VDGG

[@youmothershouldknow4905]

@@kol9495 Absolutely!

[@MellonVegan]

Bit more underground but I had to think of DMM's Eco album from a couple years ago. Atmospheric electro pop prog stuff that has nothing to do with noodling around or anything. That's from a dude who did full on stereotypical djent just 4 years prior to that.

[@youmothershouldknow4905]

@@MellonVegan Not familiar…DMM: David Maxim Micic? Based on “DMM Eco” lookup. Anyway, seems like a very interesting creative musician. I see a list of albums on Wikipedia page. Will check them out. Thanks 🙏

[@rndm7528]

can someone tell me what the song names are @ 2:50 , 7:00 , 7:12 , 13:23 ,and 16:23 ?

[@willschafer5274]

Dream Theater does use pop song structures, it’s just that the bridge is 15 minutes long haha

[@nicholashouse4261]

"Swim to the Moon" follows a verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-chorus structure--it just happens that each section is fairly complex.

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

Haha well put

[@skippy8696]

There's a solid reason why Images and Words is regarded as one of the best metal albums of all time...not just from prog but from all subgenres. It's catchy but also insanely complex, almost to the point where you feel like they're showing off. But you can still sing along to most of it just like any pop rock song on the radio. I personally believe Metropolis pt.2 or Octavarium are probably better musically speaking but they're not as catchy.

[@halaman9500]

😂

[@thegospelaccordingtoeljefe5520]

Sad but true

[@bubblebeep1592]

I watch every video you put out but this was honestly painful

[@beautyandtheoffbeats]

You should have seen how mad the black metal fans were when made a similar video.

[@maximuscesar]

I kinda agree with what he said on the video but it was still painful to me 😂

[@KeyOfGeebz]

I watched this whole video just to tip back my Kava and say Cheee huuuu to 18:18 Awwwright!!

[@johnnykarmic]

Sounds like a bunch of justifications for feeling like a genre intellectually threatens the high school genre limitations one may have placed on thier ego. It's clinging to such superficial reasoning....its like listening to a bully look for approval after the nerd they were attempting to make fun of left ten minutes ago unshook and with the last word.

[@simbolicdunksman1746]

This sounds like a guy who needs to feel like progressive music makes him inherently more intelligent due to his own insecurities

[@ExUSSailor]

When it comes to Prog, I'll just quote Mike Muir, "Just 'cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good, and, just 'cause you don't understand what's goin' on, don't mean it don't make no sense."

[@michaelmalinovsky9499]

This right here is dead on. I like this guys views usually, but this one just comes off as he doesn't know what he is talking about and almost elitist. "Kind of a "I know what good music sounds like, and this isn't it." It's funny because a lot of the music he lists as his favorites back in the day most people would say the same thing.

[@ianmartin2924]

It's called an argument from personal incredulity.

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

@@michaelmalinovsky9499 imma be real never seen someone act elitist against prog lol.

[@blackphillip8486]

Was just rocking that song this morning at work!

[@TheSilverGate]

Oh the typical "I understand, tool is not for everybody" dude

[@lancestewart6907]

My wife is a Professional Chef. I totally understand why she has zero interest in eating at Mc. Donalds..... I love Mc.Donalds, But I understand that her entire life's work is built around a palette for 5 star food, not fast food slop. I Have been playing guitar for 20+ years. My wife loves pop punk stuff........ But after that many hours on a guitar, she understand that I have no interest in 3 chord punk bands. Progressive music is just objectively better to me... I dont have the advanced palette for elite 5 star dining. She doesnt have an advanced musical ear for elite musicianship. Its simply different strokes for different folks sir. And thats ok!

[@DillSkin]

Hell yeah!

[@Alesanascreamokid]

Preach

[@sixtofive]

Exactly! With music being one of the most subjective of our shared cultural areas it's best not to be automatically dismissive of what others DO find value in. I can find at least some value in any genre of music that is well played.

[@lucasgoobag]

Dude, reading your answer was the best. I grew up in Punk Rock, but King Crimson is my favorite rock band ever - they blew everything I perceived as music away. I'm more into Fusion/Jazz nowadays, but when I play the drums or my guitar, I usually go for punk rock cuz that's what I can do. Still, I've touched the surface enough to truly appreciate the so called virtuous people, you know? Those that dedicated their lives to learning an instrument, becoming one with it...it's just e fucking beautiful thing to witness, you know? This video is pure insecurity to me, it was cringe as fuck. Dude's way out of his league. Which is fine, no one has to know everything about anything, but take a fucking chill pill. They're not attacking you because you don't get them.

[@lancestewart6907]

@@sixtofive You really hit the nail on the head about there being value in music that is played well... Popular scenes and genes change with the seasons, but good musicianship never goes out of style.

[@jesusiracheta8570]

The lorde, dream theater compassion of complexity and difficulty was the only thing that really made me feel like he was trolling lol.

[@Nestorglass]

Props to the people debating respectfully about Finn's take in the comments.

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Debate is always welcome!

[@finewine256xx]

True but the fans are well known for being a**holes so props to them for showing intelligence above a 3rd grader and I know this doesn't matter but I do live and deal with autism homicidal rage depression and on various medication

[@finewine256xx]

@@ThePunkRockMBA do u hate mentally challenged people? Because if so I am obligated to apologize

[@ismelljello]

So, what's wrong with guitar nerds having their own genre to enjoy amongst themselves? If they' have a community with common interests, let them be happy. Go make your own prog if you don't like it.

[@icchorist]

The issue he mentioned is that what most modern prog bands are doing does not fit the "progressive" definition: testing the limits and breaking ground

[@Ninjamanhammer]

@@icchorist And Nu metal isn't new anymore. It's a genre, it has a name, complaining that the genre doesn't perfectly fit the name is unnecessarily nit-picky.

[@ismelljello]

@@icchorist You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. Bitching at guitarists for doing what they like is just gonna make them double down.

[@matthewlister3755]

As a classical musician I felt this post. Not everyone's tea, sure, but it's also what gets me out of bed in the morning.

[@olleolle7587]

@@icchorist autistic semantic nitpicking.

[@ChopTheViking]

That's one of the things I love about Dream Theater and Opeth, they write GOOD songs.

[@user-fj6kk1vo8n]

Opeth is super underrated.

[@kanglongshankz3313]

@@user-fj6kk1vo8n How is Opeth underrated? They're one of the most sucked off metal bands in history. (for a good reason tbf)

[@MrKylederp]

Dream Theater wrote one good song. Pull me under.....that's it.

[@serjoerickii3262]

@@MrKylederp ah yes the only good metal song is entersandman by Metallica

[@rumpledxkn]

@@MrKylederp ....and that’s why their career ended right after that album in the early 90’s.

[@johnnywilson3071]

Progressive rock is supposed to be a song/piece that builds as the music progresses. That's what it originally was supposed to be and I feel a lot of bands nowadays have forgotten that. I disagree on Dream Theatre, they have a lot of pieces/songs that capture the spirit of progression in the music, take Octavarium or Change of Seasons.

[@RevengeoftheEnts]

This is why IMO Octivarium was Dream Theater's best album. Every song nails the balance between technical and catchy. They didn't sacrifice clever, melodic vocals for ridiculous instrumentals and the guitar doesn't feel like the center of the band.

[@thomo2127]

Octivarium drags on so much I’ve never found a catchy dream theater song

[@MrEnziteBob]

Devin Townsend is a good example having the rifts and the catchy lyrics.

[@beyondtheradio]

Yeah but that doesn't make a good click bait video.

[@lucag.lisickza425]

psychotic waltz too

[@voicelikemanywaters1017]

also Devin writes Songs, he doesnt have 5 minute sweeping solos

[@pedrosilvamusician]

Devin is not really prog though, it has a lot of prog influences though

[@beyondtheradio]

@@pedrosilvamusician listen to ocean machine or terria and get back to me on that comment.

[@Solemnyty]

I think Spiritbox box is a perfect example of writing something catchy with a simple structure but actually being subtly quite technical. Definitely my favorite metal band out there right now.

[@acenine8149]

Hard agree, there needs to be something to hook onto aside from the overly complicated guitars

[@jackhiggins9354]

Jinjer’s another amazing prog metalcore band (coincidentally also well known for their frontwoman) who connect intricate, heavy riffs with beautiful melodies and make songs that don’t take a Berkelee degree to appreciate. No hate for the ultra 197/16 songwriters out there, but their niche is just that - a small group of potential fans who can get behind it. Mike and Courtney’s chemistry in Spiritbox, and all of the musicians in Jinjer, just bring something together that really balances technical wizardry with solid, accessible songwriting

[@abowla7187]

This guy gets it.

[@KirbyLouis]

still wish they did a few more oldschool iwabo type albums after courtney came on but transforiming into spirit box was a very textbook example of being a progressive band

[@KradunkulousE]

Born of Osiris also does this quite well

[@timjasnic2002]

I don‘t think prog has problems. I think Finn has a problem with prog.

[@atvena]

Or you could just check your own bias

[@philipmichel215]

Thanks for the incentive for me to fire up my Rush playlist ... hell yeah, still love them!

[@leaveitorsinkit242]

You provided a great example in Eddie Van Halen. Here’s a great quote from him: “I don’t know shit about scales or music theory,” Eddie told Rolling Stone in 1980. “I don’t want to be seen as the fastest guitar in town, ready and willing to gun down the competition. All I know is that rock & roll guitar, like blues guitar, should be melody, speed, and taste, but more important, it should have emotion. I just want my guitar playing to make people feel something: happy, sad, even horny.”

[@Lucasryan]

Damn dude... That's some intelligent stuff right there. Noice.

[@pedrosilvamusician]

Its funny that most of eddie's stuff is not particularly fast (compared to what we see nowadays), and not extremely technical. What it is indeed is very VERY creative. And it was incorporated on an amazing sounding band. It was the perfect mix of technicality and creativity

[@kanglongshankz3313]

It's really funny Finn included Van Halen to counter his misinformed critiques of prog. This is what Steven Wilson, arguably the modern king of prog, said about Eddie Van Halen: “I know he’s an extraordinary musician, and it’s always sad when an extraordinary artist dies, [but] I was never a fan of the so-called shredder mentality. And I think in many ways, he was the father of that whole kind of movement. I never understood that ‘playing as fast as you can’ thing. And I know that wasn’t all he did - I know he was a more flexible musician than that - but I think that the legacy that he has, Eddie Van Halen, is in creating the shredder phenomenon, which is something so vile to me. That kind of idea that you play music almost like you’re playing an Olympic sport is kind of anathema to my kind of ideas on creativity and music.”

[@spinaltap7195]

Yeah the Eddie Van Halen reference was amazingly ironic considering the recent Steven Wilson controversy. Finn criticises prog for being too 'fast and shreddy', praising EVH in it's place, whilst prog legends are criticising EVH for being too fast and shreddy lmao

[@MusicWeaponsFood]

Polyphia has huge hooks. Don't know what this dude is talking about.

[@theleap2946]

A lot of really good prog rock bands do. But I think he is focusing too much on the bad stuff. I mean Galneryus has some pretty big hooks and they are definitely prog.

[@henrikswanstrom9218]

Punkbrain. Sounds like a person who loves 4chord songs in 4:4 following the standard intro - verse1 - Reffrain - verse2- Reffrain - Bridge - Reffrain formula. I don't understand how you can't grow tired of this cookiecutter structure.

[@samuraicowboyx]

@@henrikswanstrom9218 So? What's wrong with that basic song structure? Not all music has to be some big thing that has complex song structure and composition. And there's no need to look down on people who enjoy simpler music by calling them "punkbrain." Do you realize how much of an asshole you sound like?

[@Alesanascreamokid]

YES has hooks for daaaaaays too, both the 'complicated' stuff but also hooks/catchiness

[@henrikswanstrom9218]

@@samuraicowboyx Nothing's wrong with the basic song structure. I just said that, to some people, that structure becomes boring as it's extremely predictable. When you play or listen to enough music and you can call out what the next chord and section is going to be naturally, that music starts to sound less inspiring to some. Simple music definitely has its place, and so does complex music. There's no need to take a shit on progressive music, it's there because musicians are writing music for themselves. They are not writing music for the asshole who made this video. And what do you think about the author who made this video when he says that progressive music is "riffsalad" and bad songwriting? Sounds like the perfect example of someone who "doesn't get it" and just dismisses it because he can't comprehend it. Which is fine, it takes time, understanding and learning to understand progressive music. It's not written for normal people who can't hear or understand the intrinsic writing. This dude literally says the problem with progressive music is that it puts too much emphasis on technical prowess and shows shred videos of Yngwe Malmsten and Michael Angel Batio. Those guys play shredguitar and neoclassical, that's COMPLETELY different genres. Just show how completely clueless he is. I'm gonna sound pretentious when I say this, which is unfortunate, but progressive music is music made by musicians and usually enjoyed by other musicians. That's why it's often very hard for people who enjoy simple music to get into it. Normal people who don't work with an instrument 24/7 simply don't listen to or play music as much as musicians. It's only natural for some of these musicians to get bored with simple song structures and want to expand what they're doing. We all want to advance and improve. It's not like a painter is gonna pain stick figures his whole life or some talented LOL player is gonna stay bronze his whole life. Some people want to reach a higher level with what they're doing, and to some musicians that entail writing progressive music because it challenges them and their listeners. I'm not an painter, I'm not a mathematician and I'm not a philosopher. It's notlike I'm gonna call a post-modern painting "Color salad", or a parabel fifth grade derivative equation "number salad", or a philosophy thesis "word salad" because I don't get it. I've not had the training or interest to learn those things which makes me ignorant in trying to understand it. That's fine and I'm not gonna downplay any of it as talentless masturbation. The same thing goes for progressive music. If you don't enjoy it, it was never written for you. And it's very clear that progressive music was never written for the author of this video, because the only thing he seems to enjoy is Power chords and rap music in 4/4. Which again, is fine, but why did he feel the need to make this video where he says that music he don't listen to has bad songwriting?

[@silesianwalker507]

Steven Wilson, Purcupine Tree, Anekdoten, Riverside... modern prog rock with great songwriting. Taking American bands mainly for doing generalizations is wrong.

[@MrJimmypickles]

What you’re saying about vocal melodies, the voice and choruses is so true! I got my band back together recently, and we’ve been writing non stop, and we are still finding our sound really, but we had a bunch of old ideas from 2016 through to this year, and we just did what we could with them, they sounded great, but damn once the vocals were added it transformed them instantly. We always make sure to have a hook in most parts of the song, even if it’s a guitar part, just something to latch onto, each section has something memorable. But the choruses are what I love writing, and it can take a while, or it can take 5 minutes if I just sit and sing to a chord progression! People shouldn’t underestimate the power of vocal hooks and big choruses, and they always bang!

[@auraLAZAH]

I remember people getting mad at Polyphia's trap influences on their latest album, but honestly I think it's a great way to make nerdy guitar music relevant.

[@porkfriedrice1530]

Yikes. That sounds terrible all around

[@tsptrevor]

The difference is when the trap cicada hi-hat groove is played by a human, it sounds amazing.

[@lovelesstv]

@@tsptrevor when a trill sounds like a trill, not a sprinkler

[@venus9343]

That's a band that deserves to be called prog and innovative

[@adeptdamage3669]

Trap is over done at this point.

[@benjaminkline2529]

I mean every song on Tool Lateralus is insanely good song writing. Prog is awesome

[@TacticalNuke321]

I absolutely love every Tool album and I don’t think Tool has this supposed problem that this video is explaining

[@randomavenger3048]

Every is a bit to much... Maybe every song from Aenima and Lateralus.

[@thelastjerkbender2505]

Dude Tool was the soundtrack to my late teenage years and I'll be the first one to say that your statement is false. Ticks and Leeches is just an excuse for Carey to flex his drumming skills, I love the guy but that song really acts as a speed bump in an otherwise solid ride of an album. The only front to back Tool album is Ænima and even then I skip all those weird ambient songs and the album would be better off if Jimmy was left out, that song is B side material.

[@mrbungle3310]

Thing about prog is that it isnt tool,it isnt Dream theater,its a term of being progressive in music,being Innovative and creative

[@jeff702]

And is that why I can’t name or recall single Tool song even though I’ve known about the band since 2003 and have probably heard a few of their songs through out my life? 🤷‍♂️

[@ex_orpheus1166]

It's worth pointing out that being technically a proficient guitarist or drummer doesn't necessarily equate to good musicianship, i.e. keeping time, balancing, blending with other musicians and dynamism. The issue I have with a lot of metal music is the limited variation in timbre and texture. There isn't much liminal space between clean and distorted tones and not much use of space and resonance - there is sound plastered all over the place. What is also peculiar about contemporary progressive metal is the lack of instrumental variety - there isn't much use of keyboards, bowed strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion and other non-standard instrumentation unlike progressive rock of the 70s, hence why it's all guitar-centric. Seeing more guitarless metal bands as a whole would be great - Mr Macaille and Botanist are examples that come to mind.

[@nik09865]

I personally don't find nerdy off the wall proggy music as "immature." It depends on how I am in the mood to appreciate music. I love music that is well structured and is easy on the ears the majority of the time, but sometimes I love taking the time to dissect what the hell is happening in songs from bands like Panzerballet every once in a while. I find these genres genuinely fun most of the time and feel like they have their own rightful place in their weird niche.

[@fauxchellaproject]

I agree that a lot of the genre can be riff salad as you say, but bands like Polyphia and BTBAM have clear structure and hooks. Colors is a highly structured album with a clear narrative and thought given to every instrument including vocal melodies and their cohesiveness. And ployphia has clear hooks. It is not just about how fast or good the guitars are, there is a clear emotion response that comes from the music alone. I think that response is much stronger than that of music with lyrics. Idk maybe its just me.

[@theforrester2780]

Agree with polyphia. I hope I don’t blow people’s minds but it’s like bluegrass. Supporting the melody with complex harmonies

[@123612100]

@@theforrester2780 polyphia is garbage.

[@abravexstove289]

@@123612100 🧢

[@jaydenjbryant8665]

BTBAM is awesome

[@Connor.Klassen]

"They place way too much emphasis on being good at your instrument." I never realized the pure evil these "talented" musicians are dishing out

[@matthewpunk2012]

I'm done 💀

[@josuemartinez6574]

Holy shit I just lol'd like goddamn I'm ded

[@musicartguy1]

“A modern day warrior Mean, mean stride Today's Tom Sawyer Mean, mean pride” Yep. No hook here. Wasn’t popular at all… Douche.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

dudu dudu dudu BWEEEdududu dudu, dudu dudu dudu BOM BOM BOM!

[@DannyBoi2112]

Though his mind is not for rent...

[@MaGiikLeAvEs]

To any god or government ….best band ever

[@aristotle5698]

Rush has sooooooooooo many hooks it’s not even funny, even uhhh this one small Prog band, like, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of them, just a tiny band, that no ones EVER heard of, YES!

[@tbhousen]

yeah no one's heard of this "Yes" band, something about owning a lonely heart? or a roundabout or something? i dunno.

[@WesleyKhalil]

I might as well make a channel criticising genres of book i don't read, or games i don't play, since "criticising genres of music i don't listen" topic is already well-covered by this man.

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Been listening to prog since about 1984 tbh

[@oberhofedavi]

This man took a look at the Djent scene and was like "Yup, no other progressive music exists, it's all just riff salad"

[@megarockfreak]

Indeed, sad to hear. Prog exists in every genre. I'm big fan of devin townsend ne obliviscaris, ayreon. And those three bands let every musician shine.

[@kanglongshankz3313]

Thank you. This video is clearly coming from an isolated metalcore background with little knowledge of progressive rock.

[@martinjakab]

Leprous, Devin Townsend, etc. is prog as well, but they have far more memorable vocal lines and choruses than most of the pop artists. And hardly any riff salad

[@GREENWARRI0R]

He did the same thing with indie. No surprise here.

[@wanderershideout]

When you make a video on Prog & don't mention Opeth, it's already irrelevant.....

[@Ramenedish]

Imagine making a video about prog and saying "there are no catchy hooks" or "was that a great vocal hook?" and putting Dream Theater footage in there.

[@martinjakab]

Dream Theater has a catchy hook in nearly every song, but not just one, but several at least

[@natas.cancioncitas]

1.- the fact that they are one of the top prog bands ever, prooves the point of the video, they DO have great songs and pay attention to hooks, just like de Van Halen example 2.- YET they're most praised song in the prog world is the fucking Dance of Eternity. It is literally their signature song and IS BORING RIFF SALAD in odd time signatures

[@aixide]

Because that's what a riff is supposed to be, a catchy hook. Idk what Finn is on about here

[@Ramenedish]

@@natas.cancioncitas 1 - The point of the video is one thing, adding them to a group of bands saying "prog is boring" is another. I get the point, but saying that and then putting pictures and videos of the band is simply dumb, as you said it yourself: they have great songs. 2 - The most praised prog song in the world by guitar nerds. I introduced my friends to DT because they heard it first through the game "Rock Band" and Panick Attack is their favorite song. My favorite song is another one and so on. Is it hard? sure and people know it, but the most praised song by anyone who is NOT a guitar nerd is not that one. To each its own i guess

[@martinjakab]

@@natas.cancioncitas Dance of Eternity has a cool ragtime section though...

[@codydrummer]

Also, the lyrics to the song "AS I AM" by Dream Theater were actually inspired by John Petrucci being told by the guitarist of Queensryche that he would teach him how to write better songs.

[@j.w.m.415]

Saw the two of them together a few years back. Both amazing guitarists, but Petrucci would have done well to take up that offer.

[@davidcoffman321]

Opeth is inarguably the best prog band. You can tell when listening to them that technicality doesn’t matter to them cause they just write amazing songs with unsurpassable creativity and it just happens to be proggy

[@chegevara8896]

no

[@ryanwatts7817]

Literally what I was about to say

[@aggelosmanolis5689]

Not just prog they're the best band ever period it's insane how catchy they make prog and death metal sound

[@brosephh7130]

Mikael Akerfeldt has been my musical hero since childhood

[@Diffuzersound]

"if it sounds good it is good" that's my motto

[@nomadic-jack8865]

Bingo.

[@kylebuss8084]

As a prog fan I definitely agree with this the salad can get soggy, I also enjoy pop but feel its going the other way and once you've heard the first 35 seconds you've heard the whole song. Need a middle ground for both

[@dragulaWC]

100% this

[@humanmusic6409]

That’s why I love Rush. They did crazy prog *and* catchy pop.

[@fluffyy-8341]

Fax

[@blankearth5840]

I see what you’re saying but you gotta leave Tool out of this. They’re really not a good example of this problem you’re talking about here. Sure they might seem complex but they’re really not. Maybe to an extent, but I think they have that nice balance of complexity and simplicity. I can grab a guitar and learn to play a Tool song in 1 day, it’s not that hard. And there are plenty of lyrics that compliment the spiritual encouragement of the tunes of the instruments. They’ve created absolute works of art that millions like myself really enjoy. Tool is not trying to be better than another band or trying too hard to be great. They’re using their creative abilities to their full potential, to create something that would be a blessing to put into existence for people to enjoy. They’re fucking legends!

[@Napalm6b]

This is excellent. Young people should actually listen to King Crimson because even though they were using a ton of sophisticated ideas it was still about songs with quality melodies like The Great Deceiver, Frame By Frame, Three of A Perfect Pair, etc.

[@ToveriJuri]

And more modern prog isn't? At the same time I have to ask you have you actually listened through the entire discography of King Crimson? I love the band, but some of it is very experimental and not always just about great melodies.

[@WishAtElevenEleven]

I’m not even a musician, I just like how prog sounds 🤷🏼‍♀️ I discovered it after searching for metal with no screams

[@progfan9917]

Lol, same here. But if you do want to venture into growling, try Opeth :)

[@thebendu33]

you could try the mars Volta.

[@snwboardguy04]

I agree with most of his take here but I think it is a bit unfair to it Polyphia and Tool in here. They are both examples of bands that have adapted progressive styles into good music.

[@WishAtElevenEleven]

@@snwboardguy04 tool is my favorite band, and I love polyphia as well

[@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459]

Based scream hater. Who wants to hear someone growling like a werewolf or squealing like a pig?

[@seanbrooks2583]

"guys with $5k guitar rigs but no frames for their beds" - hey my wife bought the frame for our bed. i buy the guitar rigs.

[@TheShyArmyTV]

Sounds like the guitarist from periphery

[@MrKylederp]

This is actually me to the literal tee hahah. Except I just don't write any music instead of 8 minute long snooze-fests.

[@Graffitiworkrob]

@@TheShyArmyTV I mean he just bought a Ferrari, and has Lambo and high-end Porche so I don't he's hurting for cash for furniture.

[@nighthawk9532]

One of the best guitars I own was only 244$ no joke lol

[@aldaaa]

i ve started listening to tool and it feels like a breath of fresh air. it is unpredictable and the songs structures are weird but it all makes sense to me, i think they make really good albums

[@Keima_Katsuragi.]

Have you changed your mind? Because I really like ELP and King Crimson and I don't understand Tool and Dream Theater.

[@pyromaniarules]

Ok Finn has never actually listened to dream theater, he's just generalizing them based on their fan base. They write simple, slow, catchy songs all the time. And they literally say in interviews that they just write what they like, it just comes out technical because they have a lot of talent. And Finn really needs to hear porcupine tree/ Steven Wilson to get the half of prog where the songs musicality comes first. And lastly finn should really ignore the guitar wank fest part of prog because its not even a big part of it at all, by doing so he could hear the beautiful music that's being made just for the sake of making music.

[@The12thAvenger]

I second steven wilson, prog has nothing inherently to do with technicality and porcupine tree is proof of that, wonderful songwriting that is both simple and complex at the same time.

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

Gotta say though dream theatres ballads are for the most part ass. Everything else is great though lol

[@SM-nz9ff]

Insecurity man, lots of people have it. Its quite sad but also funny to laugh at people who are threatened by other people just being themselves and in doing that are more talented than the insecure person. Which Prog band is runnin around talking about "yeah we're just like so much more talented than you bro". Instead what you have are people like this who aren't very good and even admit in their life they fucked up hardcore and ruined an entire decade of it so bruh ofc you gotta try to bring other people down with you now. Come on! someone is actually good at something, can't have that you're under attack by it! lolol truly I find it greatly funny.

[@billyfrickleman3212]

Generally I have found that it is a genre for musicians. As a guitarist, I totally love the technicality and I would argue there are some great artists and songs. It's probably the exact opposite of punk rock in the realm of rock. I would not say one is better or more worthy than the other, but that they are different arts with different goals.

[@ultimadum7785]

Some punk rock can be extremely progressive though, for example bands like Drive Like Jehu, Unwound, Fugazi, Slint, and although they aren't really punk anymore, My Bloody Valentine. All of those bands kick the shit out of most prog bands any day imo.

[@billyfrickleman3212]

@@ultimadum7785 great bands and great point, I'm just trying to say it's hard to make a sweeping value statement over all of prog. There's a lot of good stuff in there. And to your point, Fugazi kicks ass.

[@ultimadum7785]

@@billyfrickleman3212 yeah but I think "prog" as a genre is really restrictive when you think about it. I think a band should just be progressive and not have to go out of their way to call themselves progressive. Both genres do seem to have opposing viewpoints on the serface though. Fugazi is probably the greatest four piece band ever. Every member of that band is absolutely perfect for their role.

[@reinhardtpienaar1316]

Was thinking the same thing. It is the polar opposite of punk rock. Many prog artists focus on their skill and the bad ones forget to create a song that flows, but with punk rock the dudes forget to tune their instruments and play 3 chords over autistic screeching. The good (nay great) artists such as Periphery and Tesseract combine both. Writing a technical song with an odd time signature and a catchy hook in such a manner that the layman doesnt even realise it. That's skill. And honestly that is why Periphery, Polyphia and Tesseract are popular. Damn, this upset me more than it should hahaha, still love Finn McKentey's vids.

[@colacp]

@@reinhardtpienaar1316 you shouldn't. He lies in most of his videos to push a hidden narrative.

[@Zao923]

It’s cray that you included TOOL on the cover. Very catchy songs and choruses...definitely focusing on the song. Also, not a crazy good guitarist. Simple, repetitive rifts.

[@rickc2102]

It's easier to focus on the song when all songs are in D. 🤭

[@richardclark1127]

Yeah...guitar is easily the weakest part of Tool. However they have a crazy good drummer and bassist.

[@1992Apocalypse]

Well said. Their songwriting and hooks are better than any pop track out there.

[@adameury60]

@@richardclark1127 I wouldn't call Adam Jone's writing weak. Sure he's doesn't do highly technical guitar parts, but I certainly wouldn't call them weak.

[@richardclark1127]

@@adameury60 I didn't say they were weak overall...just the weakest part of the band. Tool is my favorite band and I have nothing but love for Adam...but Danny, Justin, and Maynard are at another level.

[@user-ej2gl1sb6h]

I guess, it is really weird to look at people who definitely are not aiming for any mainstream commercial success and blame them exactly in that. "Stop enjoying the process of mastering your skills and playing the instrument and become more mainstream". I mean there are a lot of people who do enjoy really weird things. It's not good or bad, it's just the way it is. Can it be the problem of perception of viewer and not the artist?

[@Soldano999]

Coming from punks who write entire albums criticising mainstream pop music it's rick.

[@jessleavens7776]

"Finn spends 20 minutes saying less is more"

[@hitoshijohnson]

I've watched 2 videos from this dude now, and I think I've got it: edgy overstatement -> slight walk-back -> include himself in the criticism -> give examples which don't seem to fit the original criticism -> throw in some tangential information -> pivot to a new edgy overstatement before the audience has a chance to think about it. Anyone get a different order? Did I leave out anything?

[@shanepartridge2744]

Don't forget generalizing thousands of musicians with absolute phrases that hardly apply to any of them

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

That’s about right!

[@Ninjamanhammer]

@@ThePunkRockMBA At least you admit it.

[@nicholashouse4261]

You forgot "insulting a genre by caricaturing the fans as socially awkward males of some kind."

[@MikeSkinnerAudio]

Agree with everything except the Northlane hook. That song is always stuck in my head. My fiancé hates heavy music and loves that song because of the chorus lol

[@johnpinneriv9958]

Gotta agree: The chorus is catchy as hell. (Those verses though...whoof.)

[@Antizokker]

same, really like the song

[@antson02]

Yes totally. I think he used very bad examples for his arguments.

[@JKang-uu5vr]

Agreed. I'd say Northlane isn't even a prog band, but a metalcore band blending EDM elements in their latest songs.

[@xuticx]

​@@antson02 When he used Crystal Lake Apollo, which is one of the best metalcore songs of all time, I was out haha. I agree with his points, just bad examples.

[@adityapillai2157]

This video: "Why is prog music, prog music and not some other hooky/catchy genre"

[@youmothershouldknow4905]

PunkRockMBA: “Prog is bereft of song craft.” Steven Wilson: “Hold my beer.”

[@miameramusic]

“Progressive” lost it’s meaning the same way “alternative” did.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

It's a genre, it describes a genre. Nu metal isn't new anymore, that's how genre names work.

[@nilsar4357]

Progressive never lost its meaning. That's why Fantomas and Animals as leaders exist. In fact, some of the alternative music still has experimental/prog aspect.

[@miameramusic]

@@nilsar4357 you have a point, I’m old enough to to remember when the two genres shared the label. For instance, the alternative radio station played “progressive dance music” which at that time meant Depeche Mode & Information Society. “Progressive” and “Experimental” have similar meanings in the dictionary, but musically they can be at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[@beegeezee505]

"Alternative" died for me somewhere around the time that track from Rob Thomas and Carlos Santana was considered Alt. Oh, How the mighty have fallen. That being said, I love me some Divinex and Intervals. Sometimes I really don't want to hear a vocalist bleat on about some bullshit, and I want to hear the expressive qualities of an instrument as performed by a true master of the craft.

[@miameramusic]

@@beegeezee505 I hear you on that. Musical mastery isn’t everything, but pop has gone WAY to simplistic. Earth, Wind & Fire aren’t considered a progressive band but a song like “Fantasy” is freakin’ Rush compared to Jonas Brothers. That used to be 40 radio!

[@pyroman590]

This guy could learn a thing or two from Rick Beato. He very clearly misses the point.

[@wjporter]

I doubt that would work. Rick speaks production and music theory; Finn speaks scenes, marketing and mass appeal.

[@henrikswanstrom9218]

Rick is a musician and a producer. He understands music because he works with making it. This guy does not, he's more concerned with mainstream success and obviously doesn't play an instrument at a proficient level so doesn't understand. Prog music is music written by musicians for themselves. It's appeal is usually for other musicians or those who've developed a more advanaced taste in music. It's for nerds basically. There's a huge disconnect here. Prog music requires priming and learning to get into, that goes for all advanced music, including Classical and Jazz which also are progressive genres. One does not simply go from listening to very basic music like Pop or Rap into a progressive song and understand what's going on. You need to train your ear, often for years to understand what's going on. A person who only looks for the next chorus to sing along to or bass drop to jump to will never understand the intrinsic sections of a progressive song. And the problem, as stated before, is because they don't hear it. It's just notes and noise to them. (Talking about mainstream listeners here) I know this because I was in this boat myself. When I was young I got into metal music by starting with the simpler stuff. I listened to Nu-Metal which got me into heavy music and catchy choruses. If I would've listened to progressive music at that time it was just wankery to me. I hated solos and wanted to hear memorable choruses I could sing along to from bands like Linkin Park, Slipknot and Deftones et.c. But as time grew my taste developed and I got into more advanced music. Mainly Melodic Death Metal(Because of Catchy choruses) and Metalcore. This included bands like Soilwork, In Flames, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Scar Symmetry et.c. The growling and shredding was just there, but at that time the choruses and melodies were captivating to me. Making the leap to songs without clean singing was really hard at first. But with time I started to appreciate the actual guitars and drums more than before. My first leap to listening to songs without clean singing included Parkway Drive, Children of Bodom, August Burns Red, Kalmah et.c. This opened a WHOLE new can of worms and I actually gave Deathcore a shot after previously mocking it because it thought it sounded like men suffering from throat cancer. But after enough exposure and actually "trying" to like it, it just clicked and I understood what people found appealing with it after previously only have heard angry noise. Now it's one of my favorite genres to listen to. At this point I got my first guitar and started playing it daily for hours as a hobby. I've always wanted to play my favorite songs. I then remember one day in 2012 where I heard the song Flourish by The Contortionist at random and I was mesmerized by that song. This was my first exposure to great progressive music as it mixed two of my favorite elements together, Deathcore and hyper melodic song writing. I started looking up bands like them and got introduced to the whole Djent and modern prog scene and that's where I'm at now. I still love all the old music I started listening to way back and listen to and play those songs consistently daily. But to me, progressive music and its songwriting is just superior to all previous genres I've gotten into. Hooks and catchy choruses are less interesting to me nowadays. I've listened to too much of it. I want to hear new elements in music that surprise me and catch me offguard. Things that make me think: "Wow, I've never heard or thought of that before." To me, only progressive and melodic elements in music are able to do that. Sing along to the same chorus 3 times in a row in a song just doesn't do anything for me anymore.

[@nicholashouse4261]

Beato is the man. Yes, his videos are long and sometimes repetitive, but I love how he breaks down a lot of our intuitions about modern pop music and shows how they have an actual basis in the music theory and production techniques used in the songs.

[@slartybartfast1112]

@@henrikswanstrom9218 pretty this dudes a drummer 🤣🤣

[@Soldano999]

I know a lot of people that aren't guitar nerds or play music and sill like Porcupine Tree, the Mars Volta, Kansas or Deer Hunter. And that does not precent me from liking Royals or Lady Gaga either in fact both have insane production value to me.

[@rob0nemusic369]

The funny thing about when you compared the older metalcore song to the more recent one, is that the older sounded more generic IMAO.

[@maynardburger]

That Northlane song actually does have a great chorus vocal, in my opinion. And the song isn't at all needlessly complicated or anything. :/ Northlane is a very weird example cuz they are one of the more 'prog-y' bands doing very catchy choruses and whatnot, even pushing into more nu-metal style influence at times. Massive range of what bands are doing in the more complex metalcore scene.

[@JAMBI..]

Imagine being bethoven or tool and having finn correct them in the way they make there music.

[@henrikswanstrom9218]

If it's not 4/4 with a catchy chorus it's not good music. Kappa

[@JAMBI..]

@@henrikswanstrom9218 I know right. There's levels to music

[@nicholashouse4261]

"Concertos for 808 drum and orchestra are the next big thing in classical and if you disagree, you might be racist."

[@abravexstove289]

@@JAMBI.. Beethoven’s music is not technically wankery tho he actually had good song writing

[@michaellessel5532]

@@abravexstove289 Beethoven was literally panned by critics all then time for a technical wankery, criticizing him for writing passages of music that only he could play

[@tyrel5150]

In other news, craft beer sucks because Bud Light is the best selling beer. You don’t need complex flavor, education, skill, or passion to make a good beer. You just need like 4 ingredients, a giant factory and a tasteless, loyal customer base!

[@nicholashouse4261]

You can take the Bud Lite from my cold, dead hands.

[@123612100]

Got em

[@tam2071]

Yeah this is a good fucking break down of this video

[@SpicyBicycle]

On the flip side, Trying to smash rare hard to find ingredients together and staring me in the face saying "you must recognize this beer as good, it doesn't have to taste good, you should just appreciate that its rare. "

[@lancestewart6907]

Hit that nail on the head sir.....

[@TheSpineSplitter7]

Prog like Yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Camel etc rules

[@dakotahrivers6640]

Idk about this one, Finn. A big portion of prof fans are also musicians who really actually appreciate the technicality over traditional song structure and catchy melodies. People like music for different things and sometimes I just like listening to technical music and appreciating the skill instead of wanting to hear something catchy

[@madmaxronnie]

Agree with some things disagree with a lot of things Finn said. EVen though he said things should not be dumbed down and then goes on to say Royals is better than anything Dream Theater has ever done. Think you contradicted yourself. Agreed Riff salads are not always a song or listenable, but if every song has a catchy or poppy hook would there even be an u alternative to mainstream.

[@syko.uk.]

I love that Northlane hook lol "Running out of.. TIMEEEEEEE"

[@martinjakab]

It's creative imo

[@inDefEE]

I often find myself agreeing with Finn says but totally disagreeing with the visuals he chooses for the message he is conveying. The video is complaining about riff salad and then he chooses to show a Northlane clip of a song with a very traditional song structure, a catchy as fuck and poppy chorus, and good lyrics with a great vocal hook. I think he could improve there for sure because his message often doesn't match the visuals

[@jacobsmith3010]

Took me weeks to get that hook out of my head

[@leser1music]

Yeah, I didn't know what he was getting at with that. I like that vocal hook

[@reinhardtpienaar1316]

Great song!! Still jam that on a daily basis!

[@statickk14]

First time I have some disagreements. Prog is a sub genre and the creators definitely know of their target audience. And Dream Theatre has pretty good and awesome lyrics despite the riffs. I listen to a lot of instrumental guitar, and honestly there is a market for people who care about musicianship.

[@ToveriJuri]

I don't know jack shit about music theory and I still listen a lot of prog rock and metal because it just sounds interesting to me. I don't need to be technically skilled musician to hear a musical theme being introduced, build upon, grown through the song. And man often the singers are really good too. Maybe I could appreciate some of the things they do more if I knew the theory behind it, but clearly you don't need it these genres.

[@The1920sChannel]

For the longest time, this sort of virtuosic mindset downplayed Ringo's drumming ability for so long, at least in the public consciousness. So many rock people back in the day thought that if it wasn't a crazy John Bonham-esque drum solo or weird time signature or really complex series of rhythms, it just wasn't good. But Ringo's drumming complemented the songs so well and with such a variety of styles and beats, and it often gets overlooked. He has gotten more recognition in the past 10 or 15 years though, so that's good.

[@TaylorAnhorn]

I get where you're coming from with the sandwich argument, but I think the thing is the longevity of music vs a sandwich. I would rather have 10 hours put into a song that I can listen to forever rather than 10 hours into a sandwich I'll eat in 10 seconds

[@maxfliegner4122]

"Nobody cares how fast you can play" except for the 55,304 people who listen to Jason Richardson on Spotify every month

[@jburdsinfuse]

That's exactly .00015% of the global Spotify base (356M) or .003% of Machine Gun Kelly's audience (50M). Jason Richardson is a great player, but he is a microcosm of this video...A+ skill and will likely have zero long term impact on music culture. Then again, I'm just a hack who prefers a great song over a great solo...so what do I know.

[@ianmartin2924]

@@jburdsinfuse 55k people doesn't equate to nobody, and Jason Richardson is but one of the many. The aggregated total is larger than most genres. Also, guitar music is amongst the most popular. Jason Richardson is at the tip of the spear for an entire genre. He is already making the lasting impact you claim he will never make.

[@ianmartin2924]

@@jburdsinfuse Also, great songs can have great solos. The two are not mutually exclusive. I know you said you prefer a great song, but unfortunately, all I hear is that you prefer a simple song. If that's your bag, more power to you. Music is subjective. Go forth and like what you like. However, most of the comments in this thread stink of people who would look at a Picaso and say "... I could make that in 5 minutes with some crayons and a few water colours".

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

Well sorry guess ill throw away my thousands of hours of practice studying. Major chords WHOOO BABY

[@jburdsinfuse]

@@ianmartin2924 I'd love to see a statistic that supports your statement: "larger than most." Rock music isn't and hasn't been the most popular genre in more than a decade no matter how you aggregate it. I'm a gigging guitar player...but no one wants to hear me play a riff that sounds like an equation on the fretboard, they want to hear "You Shook Me All Night Long"

[@Soldano999]

Fin: Shreddy song with no structure or hook Me: Trains by Porcupine Tree /end debate

[@stuartmccoy91]

I'm curious on your stance with instrumental post-rock, a genre that focuses mainly on instrumentation and technical ability. Love your content dude and respect your stance on a lot of things. Keep it up!

[@tytar1037]

Explosions in the Sky and Mogwai. Love that stuff

[@tristanarnold8331]

Great music shouldn’t be defined by skill level or how “palatable” it is. Music at is core is about expression not necessarily by doing crazy shit or by making a hit song. That’s why Prog appeals to me because in theory you can do whatever you want and you don’t have to adhere to a conventional song structure however I like pop sensibilities because it gives that freedom of expression context when you marry the two and do a bit of genre bending it allows you to do some really cool stuff while writing a good song

[@Tunczyk182]

Finn: I listen punk rock. Punk rock is about being yourself and not being liking from everyone. also Finn: Progressive music should be easier and catchier because not everyone likes complex song.

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

I mostly listen to rap

[@spudfella4937]

@@ThePunkRockMBA that's irrelevant, his point still stands. You've been very into punk and respect the genre because its strong sense of individuality appealed to you.

[@MultiTaz333]

@@ThePunkRockMBA and there's your problem,soulless talentless rap isn't real music while dream theater is and royals is an OK song but is shit compared to any prog band

[@yaldabaothofgalar2618]

@@ThePunkRockMBA That explains everything.

[@darthsmolin]

It should be catchier if it wants to achieve any commercial viability or reach. Despite the technical skill required, prog has a pretty low floor and a really low ceiling for its potential audience. I think that's what Finn was getting at here.

[@rutabaga7700]

Omg it's the "rebellious" adult punk rawker living with his parents from the Progressive insurance commercial

[@rutabaga7700]

.... We just had vegan for breakfast, Finn!!!

[@thebutlerart]

For a channel that sorta functions on calling out “cringe”, this video is super RIFF SALAD CRINGE.

[@scoffel13]

I feel like the mix of prog and being catchy is where music is at its best. Prog is a constant characteristic for most of my favorites music. Pink Floyd was not the most intricate but damn if it isn't some of the best music. Ne obliviscaris, polyphia, animals as leaders, Rivers of Nihil, Dream theater Between the buried and me, etc... All have varying degrees of difficulty, but they all get stuck in my head. Not just straight riff salad.

[@BroseMusic]

My thoughts exactly!

[@frodijr]

That's actually what got me the most about Ne Obliviscaris when I got their tab book. You'd think as an extreme prog metal band it would be super difficult to play. Nah, besides the solos the guitars just need a good rhythm player most of the time, and a lot of sections are just jamming on a couple easy chords. Plague Flowers verse is pretty much just A minor and E minor with slight variations

[@andrewmendez2673]

I really like the human abstract

[@fullswingin]

@@frodijr Did you look at the bass tabs though? Haha. For reals though, imo, the basslines reeeeeally carry NeO songs - not saying anything bad about the guitars, just that the simple guitar parts are only elevated because the bass parts are so melodic and technical. Take "Forget Not" for example, where the first 5 minutes are just simple acoustic strumming beneath a long violin solo, but the bass is playing a more complex line that transforms the acoustic strumming into something interesting. Same goes for Plague Flowers as you mentioned.

[@lizzieturbett7444]

i had the entirety of coma ecliptic stuck in my head for like 3 months straight at the beginning of this year. absolute earworm

[@TheRealLetharos]

Man, I think you're wrong on this one. People do care about this. Just because its not your taste doesn't mean it's not another's. Prog isn't trying to take over the world, it's in it's sub-genre. Opeth been operating for years and they're doing just fine.

[@gn.punpun]

Right?!?! I don't know how even mentioned tool 😂 like they have some of the most musically insane compositions. Like none of the stuff he said applies to tool

[@hoddtoward380]

He spent the whole video talking about core bands. Like where's the prog rock?

[@johnsandberg1945]

A perfect example of a band that is all about song writing.

[@patrickbalkany7989]

Tbf he is right, it's only prog heads (myself included) that cares about the technic...

[@bigboy9661]

Thank God someone mentioned opeth. There's so many huge prog or prog adjacent bands who contradict what he says. Think voivod, porcupine tree, Dillinger escape plan, king crimson

[@Loner0410]

To be honest, you've single handedly smacked me in the face so hard that I am so happy you did. I never thought about it like that, as a guitarist myself, I value the intricate design of some modern things like polyphia, but I also really like to have other things incorporated, and I sort of do but don't only focus on guitar. What would you say about 'unprocessed'? They have some pretty banger songs, and they are pretty guitar driven, but also focus on lyrics as well. What would you say about them and the direction of prog metal?