The Problem with Review Scores

[@yennikarual]

a second gred glintstone video about online art critique has hit my recommended page

[@GredGlintstone]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

@@GredGlintstone That One Last Job Syndrome’s gonna gotcha someday, Gred.

[@HateVG]

A very good video. I trust the title, no need for further explanation.

[@guybkt]

Agreed. 5.9/10

[@johnskelington]

This video is a masterpiece, but it's a shattered one.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

@@guybkt Is that a regular 5.9 or an IGN 5.9?

[@PlatinumAltaria]

The idea of objectivity in a review is an extension of the "facts don't care about your feelings" mindset where anything aside from absolute logic is wrong, which makes one incapable of understanding art.

[@GredGlintstone]

Yup. And feelings often don’t care about facts. We’re not always logical.

[@dc8836]

Demanding objectivity in art shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what art even *is.* But that shouldn't be surprising when someone behaves as though logic and emotion are mutually exclusive, or that one is necessarily better than the other - that's a childish mindset.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

@@GredGlintstone I hate that saying so much bc it places those as a binary instead of complimentary modes of processing information. Feelings inform us as much as facts do. Emotions just offer us different context for information, as long as we meet ourselves (& others) with curiosity, so we can be decipherable. Bluh bluh bluh tho - just my thoughts on it.

[@YouToobLovesNazis]

​@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426Right wingers are a mob incapable of nuance.

[@viljamtheninja]

I don't entirely agree. A review can describe plenty of things objectively, and in fact should. It should describe gameplay mechanics, genre (platformer, stealth, survival horror, action, of course the lines aren't always clear cut but then you can objectively describe how the gameplay does not exactly line in with the standard tropes of a certain genre), length and size of the game, story depth, and so on. A review that doesn't describe these objective facts about a game is just not a good review. The subjective part comes in judging first the quality of these aspects, and the weight the reviewer puts on each one. A review can't be ENTIRELY objective, but a review that has zero objective facts about the game I'd say is pretty useless.

[@WalkTuahthePolls]

The problem I've found with "objective" critique is it comes from a narrow-minded view that assumes certain design conventions are inherently good. An example I remember is the way The Last Guardian was received. Tons of people complained about Trico's responsiveness without considering why the AI was designed the way it was. TLG is an immersive puzzle-platformer, and Trico was designed to fit that. If you're spamming commands when Trico is looking away, he wasn't supposed to respond well. Because the #1 goal was to create a creature that behaves realistically, not an AI built for your convenience.

[@shade0636]

"Quality judgements of art are subjective" sounds like such a given, yet in online discussions people generally don't behave as if it's true at all.

[@dc8836]

No, it's super simple - it's subjective when you are wrong, and objective when I am right. (I am never wrong.)

[@noisekeeper]

It doesn't help when games aren't treated as art and more of commodity products by the companies that make them.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

I wonder if we increasingly crave objective numbers to help us calculate whether an experience with a particular artwork or product or service or person is going to be worth our finite time, attention, & (financial) resources; if it’s a neurotic aspect of hyper-consumerism & accelerationism & how our mental bandwidth is constantly overwhelmed + exhausted. Eg it’s kind of a cognitive shortcut to say, “I don’t make enough money to see “bad movies” anymore" & decide that means you don’t even look at movies that aren’t 8/10 or over. I don’t do this myself, but I also worked in visual arts as a critic & the idea of ranking gallery shows or an installation or even performance art, expressing any of those in a number, would simply be absurd - it just breaks my concept of art, so it applies to all art-forms, in my mind. But I do use numbers/ranks as a consumer for my tech + appliances, stuff I have no idea how to evaluate, & no real interest in spending my finite time researching fridges or vacuums. I happily turn that duty over to consumer review sites. I’d hope art would stay elusive, human, un-rankable, & be important to everyone, but maybe there are appliance dudes who get mad that people like me never learn how to use our fridges the way they intended or something. Numbering everything also reminds me of the weirdness of dating + rating these days. In its harshest realm, we evaluate each other on a number scale, which just seems vile to me. But it’s rampant - think of all the “what number are you?/hotness challenges” online (that’s how Zuckerberg started Facebook), all the weird Femininity/DudeBro channels that yap their creepy garbage about what makes someone whatever number & what number they would date, or even more explicit grossly reductive metrics (eg “body count”🤢sorry, I h8 it, but an example) & the ways "new tabloids” like Jubilee apply various ranking + classifying stunts to serious socio-cultural + individual dynamics. Apologies for the accidental essay - your line about how "people don’t behave as if it’s true” REALLY burrowed in & took me thru a whole ride. We’re looking for hacks + shortcuts + transactions in the places we should be most human, most relational, most present…why? I’m just realizing there’s probably actual research on why we keep trying to apply objective metrics to subjective qualia. I should shut up & go see what researchers can tell me. Thanks! Ta!

[@nickziegler1904]

"Water is wet whether or not we interpret it as such" funny thing about that...

[@GredGlintstone]

Fuuuuck. I had no idea this was a controversial topic. You learn something new everyday. I picked the most obviously objective thing I could think of and.. it’s not. I’ll see if I can edit it out tomorrow or I’ll leave it in as further proof that I’m a big dum dum. I dunno.

[@nickziegler1904]

@GredGlintstone in all fairness it's "controversial" on the level of questions like "is a hot dog a sandwich?"

[@JoseViktor4099]

Saying something completely objective is quite hard Indeed. The only thing I could say that is mostly objective is science, and that could have a lot of traits considering the concept of "theory" and "hipothesis". At least as far as I know, I would agree that 2 + 2 = 4 on natural numbers xD

[@BBQcheese]

​@@JoseViktor4099 I think of it this way, would X still be the case if conscious creatures did not exist? Light speed is still a constant whether or not anyone is around to measure it. It's objective regardless whether or not the numbers we assign to the measurement are themselves arbitrary. The electromagnetic spectrum objectively exists regardless whether or not we can prove that the portion of it we call blue is perceived the same by everyone. It also still exists even if no one is there to perceive it at all. Asking is dark souls still a good/bad have if no one were around to play it... The question doesn't even really make sense.

[@GredGlintstone]

7.5. Too much water :(

[@fishfriend1170]

"10/10 never watched it" -fish friend 2024

[@guyWSonicpicture]

That being said this video is OBJECTIVELY the best video on the internet, I give it a 10 popcorn buckets and 3 diet cokes out of 5 movie theaters

[@loopine]

Oh damn I never saw the reviews for Alien Isolation and it is my favorite horror game of all time. Alien is possibly my favorite movie though so its a lot of fanservice, but it really does give me the most anxiety of any horror game. Gotta get my existential horror elsewhere though. Also, the robots will remember this psychological torture that you have committed and you will be among the first against the wall during the AI revolution.

[@GredGlintstone]

I, for one, welcome our new artificial overlords.

[@quntface1518]

I'd much rather watch a video about someone passionately pouring their heart out telling me why they love a "bad" game than list the "objectively" good things about a game most people already think is good.

[@straight-up479]

Being a fan of Rain World has been a fantastic exercise in all the points you make in this video. I learned really quickly that I shouldn’t put much weight on professional reviews and ratings, but I also had to learn that when people didn’t enjoy it, there’s nothing I could say or do to make them enjoy it the way I did. It broke my little heart because that game meant so much to me (and still does) but I needed to let that go cause I just couldn’t make someone feel the way I felt or experience my journey through the game.

[@thebad1643]

yeah!! rain world!!

[@nickoliekeyov746]

I haven’t watched this yet but whenever I see 'This is a _____' in my head it’s immediately followed by 'All craftdwarfship is of the finest quality.'

[@xiTzSethx]

Gred quickly becoming one of my favorite new content creators. How can this man keep putting out banger after banger video.

[@legrantstanley2201]

2:56 this video here is actually part of an arg called “don’t feed the muse” by a KZbinr named Alex Bale. The video is intentional hyperbolic, the point you were making still stands just got a chuckle out of me to see it here. Great video ^^

[@graysonsnoeyer2945]

9:13 “you can’t make an argument so good that they retroactively have a different emotional experience” this is something sooooooo many people need to hear. your perspectives about video games, criticism and art in general are so concise and refreshing compared to like everything else in this platform right now man. keep up the awesome work 👍

[@s-nooze]

My objective review of this video is that it is a video. Thank you.

[@vincentninja68]

Almost skipped this one but then I realized this is a Gred Glintstone video and therefore its probably really good. Your videos are becoming an event, I set aside time for these now.

[@wast01d]

your takes on art critique are so refreshing. a very good video indeed.

[@GredGlintstone]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@PKDeviluke25]

I remember the original NIER got absolutely low review scores and had I listened to them i wouldn't have played one of the greatest games i have ever played in my life. NIER changed my belief of what video games can achieve by mixing narrative and gameplay and blending game genres.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Funny you mention NeiR, I was thinking of the flag waving robot village during this video & I couldn’t shake the imagery.

[@b0tster]

i missed NIER because all the western reviewers called it some weird japanese game and im honestly still upset about it. i can only imagine playing that game during my more formative years

[@PKDeviluke25]

@@b0tster Usually a game that everyone hates or got low scores are the games I usually at least try and give a fair shake. If everyone hates it, I often see that as the game doing something that is outside the norm and that it's not a game made for everyone.

[@BillgeBro]

Can someone please leave a timestamp on when he gives a number on how good this video is? 12:51 Also the balls of this man

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Diabolical balls!

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

He says too many numbers in the video so I’ll calculate the mean + get back to you.

[@Alis_Games]

An objective critic is a strange creature. Sort of Shroedinger's Cat, I presume. He is totally objective and valid when you agree with his perspective and the final score. Otherwise, he's not a critic and his opinion doesn't matter. He basically ceases to exist for you if you don't like his score in your brand new favorite game. This is a sad but also hilarious truth about every single human perspective on everything that involves opinions. Oh, and you're absolutely right - this is incredible video, real masterpiece, 10/10

[@Zythryl]

Thank you Gred, for articulating these things in not just a concise way, but in a fun way as well. I hate that robot. Your choice of timing, for the clips that show its terrible fake face, was hilarious, and spot-on. A good match for chatgpt. I can think of a simple “counter-point” to the idea that critics can’t really speak for objectivity in art for art’s sake. Imagine the simple instance of a jump you have to make to cross a gap in a platforming game. Just some jump in Mario or whatever where you have to get to another platform over a bottomless pit. So, in most games, obstacles or no, the jump is do-able. It can be done. Imagine, now, an instance where the platforms of the jump were spaced wrong, but unintentionally, and without recognition of the mistake by the creator of the game. So, you play the game, it’s here and released, and you come across this jump that cannot be done. It just isn’t possible. By anyone. Now, for a “critic,” the difference between the do-able jump and the impossible one, is what is described when the critic deems the first jump “good”, and the second jump “bad.” It’s more like, they mean “healthy” (for the game, and for the player) and “not healthy”. The first game, with the mistake-less jump, is a good game, because it succeeds at being a game. The second one is a bad game, because it does not succeed at what it is meant to be as a simple platformer-comfortable, do-able, understandable, and so on. In this second game, with the bad jump, the creator of the game still tried to make a good platformer, but they made a mistake antithetical to every principle the rest of the platformer had built up and communicated. And the mistake cannot be conveyed as a mistake, until after the player interacts with it, and recognizes how it doesn’t line up. I feel like when a critic is trying to be who they are, when they try to achieve “objectivity” in their beliefs, they’re trying to point out what appears to be mistakes. Of course, this is a complex affair, because this leans into appraising the structure of the work-for the example of appraising a painting, as you bring up in the video, a thing like the “bad jump” is closer to pointing out that there’s some shoddily done brushwork, than pointing out failure in artistic merit or intent. It’s like saying, “I know what you were trying to do, but this choice you made here achieves the opposite.” Or something. It’s in these complicated weaves of intent and structure that these kind of critics are trying to operate in, and to appraise. Trying to identify similar things to a “bad jump” but in more complex and subtle things like intuitive telegraphs, dodge timings, what constitutes good v bad exploration in a world, and so on. Things that do have objective boundaries, structure, and traits. Maybe. I wouldn’t really know, this is just the first thing I thought of after viewing. I guess this idea I have of trying to appraise what’s healthy for a game’s vision, versus what isn’t, doesn’t have much to do here, because, yeah, what a critic feels is healthy and what isn’t, is subjective evaluation. But, if a critic comes across a bug, and there’s no way to know whether the bug is a bug or feature, and the critic only *feels* that the bug is a bug while every other player feels the bug is a feature, and then the developers find out about the bug and then fix it, because it wasn’t part of their intention, their bigger picture… then, the critic would have actually been right, objectively, while operating only on subjective feeling. But, then, this kind of thing can only happen in retrospect after the bug is recognized as an objective mistake. So. Maybe this just means critics seeking objectivity are just people who want to actually be bug testers. Mistake seekers. Under the guise, intentional or accidental, of art appraisal. That aside, I’m willing to bet, too, that some young people just can’t learn the difference before they have the ability to put their voices out there. They end up making subjective appraisals thinking they’re working in terms of objectivity, *because* they haven’t had anyone point out the difference, and that nothing had yet happened to them to suggest there are differences they aren’t aware of. You know? So, good thing this video exists, now. It’ll certainly help people. Good stuff Gred!

[@GredGlintstone]

Haha, yeah, I tried to make sure people knew I was being goofy and not actually condoning the use of chatgpt in critiques. That would be silly.

[@chromegnj478]

This is clearly a very fantastic at least 9.2/10 video. Only the silliest of geese couldn't see the pure and awe inspiring quality. Screw you Gred Glintstone!! You very obviously and objectively are nitpicking and biased for your poor 9.0 score. I demand you change your score and video thumbnail to accommodate immediately! On a slightly more serious note, I really hope you're enjoying making these essay videos. I loved both the Silent Hill 2 and Video Game Critique videos you made and I am looking forward to more!

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

If you were TRULY OBJECTIVE you’d break Gred’s video down phoneme by phoneme in an 11 hour response video, you coward. (I’m only being playful with you! Poe’s Law made me ruin my own joke by explaining it tho!)

[@BBQcheese]

Omfg thank you! These absolute twats that run around the Internet saying things like objectively good or bad drive me crazy. It's like saying roundly square it just doesn't make sense. Good and bad are words that only have meaning relative to value which is subjective by definition and can never be anything else. The best you can do is find a reviewer who tends to have similar tastes to yourself and use their opinion to inform your own but objective reviews do not exist.

[@na8291]

maybe one day we can live in a post cinemasins/mauler world

[@BBQcheese]

​@@na8291 That would be nice but tbh I strongly believe that people such as Joseph Anderson are largely responsible for this type of thing as well...

[@dandre3K]

@@BBQcheeseWhat’s wrong with Joseph Anderson?

[@BBQcheese]

​@@dandre3K He does video game dunkey level analysis yet presents himself as an informed critic. He has an extremely large following and his shoddy analysis has a disproportionate impact on community discourse. He and by extension his fanbase are responsible for an enormous amount of the toxicity in the community yet refuse to acknowledge it and instead resort to finger pointing, blame gaming and goal post shifting.

[@BBQcheese]

​@@dandre3K He does extremely surface level analysis that is often misleading and incorrect which is then treated by the community as informed criticism.

[@Ontos99]

There is an interesting counter to this video on a specific point. When I've experienced Xenoblade Chronicles 3, I initially didnt like it. I had problems with the pacing and writing. Then both because of my own disappointment and critiques "loving" it, I decided to reconsider my perspective. To give the game another chance with a new playthrough. A fresh eyes without the burden of comparing to the previous installments.(which are the banes of sequels in general) And I had such a qualitatively different experience that I love it now. Apparently, I wasnt able to focus on the writing as well as I thought I did, I missed MANY of the thematic intentions and details in dialogues. As much as our opinions are subjective, the quality of the interpretations in an analysis format can show a deeper facet of the experience we werent conscious before. Either we can become conscious of it or someone can point out some of these facets as a critique and we might be like "Hmm interesting. Maybe I should give it another chance" After all, we all experience a "thing" with baggages on our minds. Expectations. Cravings. Desires. You name it. A blind first playthrough doesnt always mean the highest level of satisfaction can be gleaned immediately. Sometimes both in gameplay and story. And I say this as someone who doesn not like repeating a game I've already rolled the credits on (in general) So sometimes when people use the word "objective", they refer to a deeper layer of an experience that is possible to access. Whether gameplay or story. A layer that goes beyond some of the assumptions that are taken for granted on the surface. Or maybe a layer that does stronger thematic connections between unrelated looking things. Hope that makes sense. Great vid. I'll react to your previous video soon.

[@JoseViktor4099]

One of the hardest pill I have to swallow is that at the end of the day, opinions doesn't really have value, because everyone put their own value on subjective matter. Therefore being mad about other opinion is basically non-sensical. I spent about two whole years, almost weekly arguing with people on the internet because they didn't liked the game I did (Elden Ring), trying to convince why the reason they dislike something is because something that is fault to them, instead of accepting that I had fear of feeling invalidaded for these opinions. It was not until I Saw my past comments , and saw another one doing what I did, for other games, on a much bigger scale, that I started to question what I did. Being upset for other opinions and calling them out, not only makes you to loose an insane amount of time engaging into an argument, but makes you far less patient on real life. And it sounds quite stupid spelling out loud "Hey man, im mad because you dislike what I enjoy". Of course, the line on this trait is quite difuse, because if an opinion is based on misinformation or lack of it, fallacies and/or disregards, of course I think is valid to at least be puzzled about that opinion and explain why. Some will listen, other wont, but for the sake of your well being I just think the best is to rather try to change opinions, or simply stop there.

[@GredGlintstone]

Opinions do have value! They’re just not facts. Completely normal to get mad about other people’s opinions. I do often. I’ve made a couple videos about that. But can be a little futile when you’re not trying to change how someone feels but instead change how they felt.

[@BBQcheese]

I've been there but I guess for me personally is that I never really had an issue with people not liking what I like. I have an issue with people giving nonsensical reasons for it, spreading misinformation to justify their opinion. I feel totally the opposite, everyone's opinion has value... You don't need to lie to justify your opinion it's ok to just not like something. Worse yet are the people who insist that their opinion is a fact. That the game is objectively poorly made... Stuff like this drives me insane and I feel like poorly done criticism online is responsible for a lot of it.

[@JoseViktor4099]

@@BBQcheese Well, when someone claims that their opinion is objective, they are not at Risk to have disagreeiments, they are at Risk to be proven wrong. And once you are proven wrong, people starts to take you less seriously. I could also make us mad because It gives an illusion of knowledge. I seriously doubt that 90% of the ones claiming "this is poorly designed" genuely have any idea what Game design even is.

[@BBQcheese]

​@@JoseViktor4099 That's a really good point my friend

[@enman009]

​@@GredGlintstone A business "coach", who eventually became a friend, once told me: "some things aren't inherently good or bad, they just are. The adjectives we use are often what gives them value". That became one of the few things I remember and try to implement almost daily. Opinions are only as relevant as you make them out, because outside of certain niches, and even within some groups inside of it, they can hold little to no value. Besides, arguing about art, specially gaming, isn't a very high stake action; we're just passionate individuals trying to have a voice (or a keyboard, idk).

[@toddlucas]

another gredington glintstonious video has dropped how stupendous!

[@jasenmoment]

My recent favorite quote is "AI inadvertently proves the existence of the human soul, as it has shown me what art looks like without it." A lot of the art we love should not be judged objectively, as art is a subjective take on the world around you

[@GoldieRinglets]

But am I beautiful?

[@GredGlintstone]

Always

[@sarahtonin3743]

Your perspective on this sort of thing is always so refreshing. I feel like the culture of the internet has devolved so much over the past few years, but who's to say if it really was better back in the day or if I was just younger and I'm yearning for old times? Either way, these days everything is all speed, no substance. Gotta get to the next take and the next pointless argument quickly, no time for nuance! It's a shame, because thoughtful discussion & disagreement about a piece of media has always been an experience I've really enjoyed when speaking with friends. This is a very good video.

[@outkripper]

Dude I can’t wait for your channel to blow up. Your content is off the charts mate I’m looking forward to seeing you grow and get the recognition you deserve.

[@grimreefer9324]

Ive always thought KZbin and the internet in general needed a real critique as to how people treat review scores. People will act like you just stepped on a puppy's head if you give some random classic or mainstream hit a 6 or 7 out of 10. Anyone who does that needs to unattach their identity and personality to the media they consume

[@Joshuaraymalan]

"They want validation" is a wonderful summation. This was a breath of fresh air.

[@mateusgreenwood1096]

Obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is biased in the end. But the reason everyone hated that ign review is because the critic clearly didn't understand why his own noise was revealing his position to the alien and he thought the ai wasn't supposed to get him despite the fact he was making mistakes.

[@xaph3024]

objectively this is a good video yes

[@Invidentia]

This video warmed my heart as it reminded me of a time before my dad left to go pick up milk. Objectively scored as "Be my new dad"/10

[@bobbit_the_hobbit]

11:43 OH MY GOD RIGHT IN THE CHILDHOOD 🤩🤩🤩 The OG zoombinis lives rent free in my head to this day. My ringtone is the opening theme 😂

[@GredGlintstone]

I was trying to think of a good game to get people's nostalgia going and it was the first thing I thought of. Had completely forgotten how hard the ost slaps.

[@iamjustkiwi]

First video of yours I've ever come across and it hit the nail on the head of one of my greatest frustrations as someone who watches a lot of reviews of things. Earned a sub for sure!

[@GredGlintstone]

Welcome aboard!

[@saulitix]

I give this video 7 Joseph Andersons out of 89 Matthew Mathosis. This is the higher score I've ever gave in my life.

[@a_level_70_elite_raccoon]

"I love you, too, Greddy Baby," nearly got me to fall out of my chair. One of the things that I found interesting and really helpful back when I was becoming more involved with video games was when Game Informer magazine would do reviews for high profile games, they would typically have their Fighting Game or Racing Game person write the main review, and then someone else in the office who wasn't a big fan of that type of game would write a side-review. It was usually only a few sentences, but back when all I knew and played were jRPGs and Pokemon games it was nice to read what (at the time) felt like an 'unbiased' point of view, which more accurately should be called an 'outsider' point of view, because I know *now* that there's no such thing as unbiased. Some of those side-reviews got me to try games I ordinarily wouldn't have, even if some of them were busts. As a more modern example, I thoroughly enjoy watching Yahtzee Croshaw swear up and down about whatever new game is coming out, and it's fun to nod my head along and go "ah, yes, this game is trash" to get that nice dose of schadenfreude. But every now and then he'll cover a game closer to my sphere of enjoyment, and based almost exclusively on the things he says he hates about the game, I will know whether or not I will enjoy it. Plus, it's always good to make a few jokes about the things you like, if only to raise some self-awareness about it.

[@Mr.Starlight_gaming]

2:15 To be fair the ign dude was not playing it very well. He talked about the alien noticing you when he shouldn't have, while in the clip he shows, he has the tool on that reveals your location to it. Doesn't give the impression of somebody who knows much about the game that he is "professionally" reviewing.

[@GredGlintstone]

That's fair. But I'd say a good deal of people don't play games very well so it's a perfectly valid perspective to have.

[@YouToobLovesNazis]

Video reviews are often compiled by video editors after the critic has written the review. It could have been bad timing, and not necessarily bad gameplay.

[@JehrkeFR]

The dig at 13:00 had me in stitches, but unfortunately I had a headache while watching this video which ruined my viewing experience. 7.5/10 It has a little something for everyone.

[@collin2401]

When I see people arguing about how "good" or "bad" a video game is online, it's like watching two children fight over their favorite colors. It's okay that you think blue is "better" than red, you can still be friends 😂

[@QuantumTelephone]

Gred Glintstone and The Elephant Graveyard. These are really the only two channels I need on KZbin. Everything else is just filler on this damn website

[@GredGlintstone]

Dude.. Love The Elephant Graveyard. Happy to be mentioned in the same breath.

[@EnderGraff1]

Same, they’re so top notch.

[@witchfynder_finder]

11:41 Wait, did 50 just kiss that guy? Props to 50

[@Eldaino999]

Your self awareness is literally the most refreshing thing. No one even comes close. I feel like a lot of Star Wars ‘fans’ would do well to watch this video. Watching that cycle repeat itself has been fascinating. EDIT: I made this comment about 3/4’s of the way through and then guy dropped the last Jedi in there. Brilliant. My own brothers were staunchly anti sequel trilogy and after engaging with those films in a more genuine way, they got value out of them and admitted they were being massively influenced by tons of videos online on why ‘the last Jedi is objectively bad’. Criticism does have influence over others and it’s so important to like..think for yourself. Who knows what you’re missing out on.

[@GredGlintstone]

I'm not really a Star Wars fanboy but I kinda liked The Last Jedi. Definitely my fave of the sequel trilogy and its not even close.

[@Eldaino999]

@@GredGlintstoneI’m more sympathetic towards all 3 than most, but even that comes with biases; my kids adore them and it’s the first Star Wars I shared with them, and it feels closer in tone to the original trilogy than the prequels do, which came out when I was a teen and surprisingly do not have enough nostalgia for to make up for their short comings. Having said that, I’d never try to push my tastes on anyone or tell them they are objectively wrong for not liking what I do!

[@g1829]

Kinda hard to blame Star Wars fans though when Disney has been drip feeding them Pig Slop and other garbage since they acquired the IP.

[@VanEinzbern]

"You can't change how people felt at the moment of having an experience with a piece of art so there are no reason to debate them". Did not expect such a wild take after the Joseph Anderson video. Especially after saying that he didn't get the soulslike genre, which contradicts Joseph's own said "feelings".

[@GredGlintstone]

You’ve used quotation marks but I didn’t say that.

[@s4bugs]

A very good video, 1 cherry soda out of 2

[@timothyburger6715]

Another banger. On a scale of x to y it's definitely within the specified values.

[@enman009]

Glintstone rocked as hard as Brad Pitt at the end of Once Upon A Time in Hollywood. Banger of a video! The reason why I take music and book criticisms much more seriously than game criticisms is the fact that commentators often times articulate better the difference between the interpretation of the artpiece's intentions and their personal thoughts on the piece in question. This kinds of considerations feel almost nonexistent in game criticisms, where the most common practice is to say "X thing good, Y thing bad".

[@31codyskater]

Holy fuck that zoombinis game deep cut hot damn. I feel like i just unlocked a repress memory of i game i loved as a kid

[@KripsuPL]

Watching the chat GPT segment made me remember: "Do you know the definition of insanity?"... poor GPT, if we end up being slaughtered by machines I blame you! :D

[@GredGlintstone]

Chat divorced me and took the kids :(

[@KyletheScott]

One of my least favourite comments is "It's fine if you like this, but you have to agree that it's objectively bad". Come on guys, that doesn't even make any sense.

[@tevenpowell8023]

My main problem with sentiments like that that is that in order to measure objective quality you need to be comparing the work to a set standard. Like color theory for a simple example. And different may people use different standards. But most of the time those people don't tell you what standard they're comparing it to. So you could literally both be being completely Objective, but using different standards so you disagree on quality anyway.

[@jurajfrano7272]

Problem is that you can judge a game somewhat objectively on the basis of subjective criteria and I feel that many people don't realise that. If you get your criteria aligned, then no problem. It depends on the level of analysis of coruse. But you need to set the rules for the game, then you can play it.

[@dominickwilkins2492]

I always take reviews as reference not as gospel, because the last word on what I think of a movie or game is me and no one else

[@GredGlintstone]

That's a great way of considering them.

[@BadHatNZ]

I'm sure you meant it to be tongue-in-cheek but chatgpt isn't really a "non-human" point of view, if anything it's just another aggregator of human opinion. anyway, great stuff, very good video 👍

[@GredGlintstone]

Absolutely. Definitely not a reliable non-human perspective. But the only one I had access to help me out with an objective review. We make do with what we have.

[@Mister_Don888]

I think there is a valid reason to not like the new Angela design. There’s an interview with one of the Original Silent Hill 2 devs, and he explained why Angela looked older than she actually was. I don’t remember what he said, but there was a clear artistic intent behind the old Angela design that the devs of the Remake just ignored.

[@Seeker1998]

Great video! From my subjective interpretation this video was an objective masterpiece! I would love to watch you talk about Mauler and his style of criticism someday. I think you would bring a lot to the table.

[@glisteninggames2981]

taught me something. thank you

[@amilex5805]

Often times, when people asks the critics for objective reviews, i think what they mean is they want the critics to look factor in some other sides of the arguments, basically the critics should acknowledge some opposites opinions while still stating their assessments. But as we know now that critics couldnt give a shit about others opinions in their reviews, thats not what they are here for😂

[@MavrosStJohn]

I have always rated stuff with “Gold” “Silver” and “Bronze”. Silver is an Average game, Gold is Pretty good, and Bronze is Subpar. I then take the whole set, and take the best of the Golds and make it “Platinum” and I call it “Stone” for the Worst of the Bronze. This means, technically, There is only one 10/10 game a year, and average of the game that come out in a year will technically be 7/10. This is a much better system than “I liked it, 9/10” for 80% of the games in a year.

[@WealthyHomeless]

Ratatoskr made a video with a very similar point of view when he got push back on lords of the fallen review. Indeed this is a very good video that I clicked on.

[@BigOlMonkeBoi]

Do you remember the name of the video? I'm a big fan of Rata and would be very interested in it

[@WealthyHomeless]

@@BigOlMonkeBoi seems like he removed the video for some reason which is strange as I thought that was a very good video. Now only reactions to the video exist, video name was "There are no Objective Reviews"

[@BigOlMonkeBoi]

@WealthyHomeless Damn, well thanks for letting me know brother

[@BigOlMonkeBoi]

@WealthyHomeless He also unfortunately took down 2 of his videos on video game difficulty which is unfortunate because I feel like they were the best videos on the topic

[@WealthyHomeless]

@@BigOlMonkeBoi he does stream on his second channel so I might ask him why he removed the video.

[@melephs_cap]

It's also worth noting that subjectivity is a sort of continuum. For instance, calling a game "too long" is obviously subjective, but calling it just "long" may have an implicit value judgment (like either "long games are good" or "games should not feel short or long to me"). Even calling a game "longer than its predecessors" still depends on how you're actually measuring length: community average playtime, your own playtime, glitchless speedrun length, etc. (In other words, length of a game depends on the player.) I'm inclined to say every statement is somewhat interpretive, even when every feasible qualifier is included. Another good example is when chatgpt says DKC3 has polished gameplay and intricate level design. According to what standards? And aren't those adjectives implying a positive value judgment?

[@EnderGraff1]

A SUCCULENT CHINESE MEAL?! 6:14

[@GredGlintstone]

Ah, yes, I see that you know your judo well, sir.

[@fbmb1337]

I think my personal realization of this topic was twofold: first when I finally played Godhand after being dissuaded for years by its low score (shoutout to TotalBiscuit for helping my decision, rest in peace) and seeing the critical reception Drakengard 3 got on the internet after playing it at the behest of a fairly positive review it got from a local gaming magazine (for the record I enjoyed my time too). It's why I've always struggled with the notion of trying to focus sorely on the "Objective" side of game critique, like sure I can agree on some fairly immutable facts like "The framerate kinda sucks" or "This game is fairly buggy" but unless it makes the game literally, factually unplayable/unenjoyable I don't think it's necesarily fair to hold that as the only thing we should take away from the experience, much less let it dictate how everyone should see it.

[@reksraven]

Really good video. You kinda say stuff that I feel isn't said enough in online discourse. What annoys me is that review scores are only "biased" if they disagree with the views of the one calling the scores biased.

[@newersoup5202]

i think this is a decent video, but i could have done without the segment where chat gpt repeats all the points made before

[@MelficeMSM]

Yeah, I do struggle to find the value that segments gives to the video

[@HarrisonReviews]

I think the point was to get a perspective from a non human, as that would be required for an objective review since humans are inherently biased.

[@MelficeMSM]

I understand what you are saying but the assumption that an AI like chatgpt is not flawed in the same way as humans doesn't hold up since it is only fed by data created by humans and just accumulating them

[@ViperJoe]

Objectively, the word "objectively" should only be used ironically in my personal opinion (subjective!)

[@Sadbearsoup]

Very good. 630 corns out of a cob

[@howdyfriends7950]

to be fair, because human memory is such a slippery thing, and memories get rewritten every time you remember something, I don't think it's 100% true that rational arguments can't influence your perception of how you emotionally responded to something. I've noticed this phenomenon multiple times where I've had very few complaints about a game, until someone pointed out a bunch of flaws that i just failed to notice because I wasn't paying attention to that, I wasn't on the lookout, and in retrospect it made my memory of my emotional response to the game change, it highlighted smaller instances where i was struggling with the controls, i went "oh yeah, they're right, i DID get frustrated when i was fusing an arrow in tears of the kingdom and i had to go through this single file line of 500 fuse materials" those little frustrations and moments of joy are things that i could completely forget about until someone brings it to my attention, then my attention shifts which (however unintentionally or subconsciously) colors my memory of my emotional reaction to the game. like i had never played a real open world game since oblivion in like 4th grade, and i came away from pokemon violet very satisfied with my experience. it was in retrospect, upon hearing reviews, upon playing other games like botw and dark souls which raised my standards, those experiences colored my perception of my initial reaction to the game, and it took me a pretty long time (and rereading some of my own older posts that i wrote during my time with that game) to realize that i was gaslighting myself into thinking that i enjoyed the game less than i actually did at the time.

[@stepoface]

But in the end, was it the arguments that changed your view or the fact you played other titles that raised your standards?

[@hhowdy]

This is a video that is 22 minutes and 45 seconds and I watched this at 6:10 AM

[@hhowdy]

You make the best video essays Greg, I love Greg

[@GredGlintstone]

Good morning and thank you! Hope you dug it.

[@Xaveze]

The only accurate review scores are the ones I agree with.

[@GILGAMESG069]

I do think there's place for both subjectivity and objectivy when discussing art, we can only appreciate when something succeeds because there's capacity for failure, everyone has biases yes but it doesn't mean you can't criticize something you like or praise something you hate, an opinion can also correlate with something that's factual, you can for example say LOTR is good both because you like it and because it's well written Saying something is objective dosen't mean that you're always right or that everyone else is wrong, you can make mistakes and learn from them because there is right and wrong, just like how saying something is your opinion dosen't mean you can get away with saying anything or that you can't be criticized, it's all based on the amount of information provided and how well they're presented

[@shade0636]

What's your basis for claiming that LOTR is objectively well written?

[@GILGAMESG069]

@@shade0636 The same reason why every other story is well written which is internal consistency, the story and character motivations are coherent and don't contradict each other or the rules it sat for itself, I didn't go into anything specifically or the qualities unique to Tolkien (his world building, use of language and dialouge, use of magic and the sheer thematic depth etc) because this topic is too huge for a youtube comment but that's the gist of it Lotr is one of those stories that I can cite for its writing because it does so many things so well to the point where it's easy to see the difference vs something far less competent like rings of power

[@shade0636]

@@GILGAMESG069 Plenty of stories are internally consistent though.I could write a 3 line story with zero plot holes or inconsistencies. Would that make it objectively well written? Perhaps you think it holds more weight in LOTR's case because the narrative is complex, therefore requiring more effort. But does effort necessarily translate to objective quality? If you believe it does, are you able to prove that your metric is objectively correct and not simply a personal belief of yours?

[@GILGAMESG069]

@@shade0636 Yes plenty of stories are internally consistent that's why they're good because they make sense, if the story dosen't make sense then everything around like themes fall apart as well No effort dosen't equates quality, you can spend alot of time on something only for it to be bad, however great art is always a result of alot of effort, great understanding of the subject matter and sometimes personal experience, that's why dostoevsky's novels for example are so engrossing Lotr isn't more impressive than your 3 line story because it's more complex, complexity dosen't always correlate with depth, Nolan movies have far more complex plots than lotr but the latter is so much more rich You often hear in this discussion who's to say something is objectively good or not? The answer is no one the work speaks for itself, the context of a piece of art is finite therfore measurable which is why it's possible to determine whether it functions or not, you're holding the work to its own merit not anything or anyone else's

[@shade0636]

​@@GILGAMESG069 You still haven't precisely defined what you're measuring which makes LOTR objectively well written though. The most precise definition you've given is a lack of inconsistencies, but now you're saying there's something else that makes LOTR objectively better written than my 3 line story. You've used terms such as "rich," and "engrossing." Both of which are properties born from interpretation of a human being. Someone must be there to feel engrossed, or judge that something is rich. What seems rich to one person may not seem rich to someone else, and what engrosses someone might not engross someone else. The work does not speak for itself.

[@viljamtheninja]

20:00 Can't believe my guy says he hated Metroid: Dread, Gred Glintstone is objectively wrong and I'm boutta write you an essay on ludonarrative something something until you agree!

[@GredGlintstone]

Soz!

[@AlexBermann]

We are living in a world where the human tells the AI to be more soulless about art.

[@duvetboa]

I hate KZbin. I spent 20 minutes typing up a positive and thoughtful comment and it just gets auto deleted with no notice and everything I had written is lost.

[@GredGlintstone]

Thanks for taking the type anyway! It is appreciated.

[@DinoDragon6]

I'd write a comment about my thoughts on the subject, but you were able to express the ideas I wanted to say quite beautifully. That is quite rare. Good job. I've been getting sick of this "objectivity in art" bs. When you try to "objectively" judge the value of art, you're not judging the art, you're judging people. You're calling into question the validity of those whose experiences with the media don't match your judgement. There's no point besides feeling superior, or feeling correct. And as an example of my negative experiences with this mentality: I have a strange relationship to horror. I love a lot of horror adjacent things, but (sometimes deeply) dislike a lot of core aspects of the genre. This has made my encounters with content discussing the genre (more specifically through an "objective" lens) difficult. Things that would make the experience more enjoyable for me would be deemed "objectively" bad, things I dislike would be praised, etc. And even if the claim of objectivity isn't there, I know there's a lot of people who will see it as such anyway. And, while I understand this from the perspective of a fan of the genre... degrading that which stray away from it rubs me the wrong way on a personal level. Having someone claim the thing you want is not worthy of enjoyment is not pleasant. But what upsets me the most is that this stuff pushes people away from making/enjoying such unconventional works, and makes my search for this "genre" I can't quite put a name to that much harder. I know that was very long and very personal, but it felt relevant. This idea of objective quality of art just brings needless frustration and negativity to the table. And hatred too. It makes us divided in our diferent perspectives, when, outside of it, exploring those different perspectives would bring us together in ways in ways nothing else can. P.S. I am one of the few non-dudes watching this, I guess I'm a real special gem :3 P.P.S. I hate this black on black text glitch youtube has

[@GredGlintstone]

Thanks for the thoughtful message. Appreciate you checking it out!

[@joaoedu1917]

The absurd amount of shovelware, offer and lack of time to try more stuff, makes me rely mode on review scores to double check if it at least is not broken or anything

[@GredGlintstone]

Totally valid to check through a review to see if there's anything in it that you'd hate. I do that too. But sometimes like a certain game set in the lands between... people will say something doesn't work that actually totally does.

[@hollisblack]

“Huh. The title is ‘This is a Very Good Video’. Oh. It opens on Tim Heidecker and Neil Hamburger. Oh no. Am I being punished for calling the last video excellent? I should have followed my constant rule: Don’t be a KZbin commenter.” -Me, ten seconds in, before it became apparent that this is going to be about a very different thing.

[@GredGlintstone]

Hope you dug it after those 10 secs!

[@JoseViktor4099]

Oh, is a shame that this video is not doing the same numbers as the others, it actually helped me on my decision to be more emphatic with other opinions. KZbin algorythm is truly quite trashy. Btw, im curious why would you consider M.Dread a dissapointment.

[@GredGlintstone]

I'm playing Nine Sols at the moment which is just such a better game. The fact that Dread is similar (but not better than) games which came out on the SNES and GBA is just not good enough for a full priced game for current gen consoles. Indie game developers have been making Metroidvanias for years and showing up Nintendo at their own game at a fraction of the price. It took me less than 8 hours to beat Metroid Dread and 90% of the bosses were repeated. Not good enough.

[@JoseViktor4099]

@GredGlintstone Ouch. I Guess that the contrast between Dread and stuff like Hollow Knight might be too much xD

[@hmminterestinginterestingi3023]

Who keeps letting Gred cook? If we let this go on too long he’ll be a Michelin star Content Creator. Love you Gredababy

[@GramKraken]

Are we the same person! I cannot watch the Disney dub of Totoro. Like you, my sister and I watched the VHS copy dozens if not 100 times. I went as far to spend crazy money on a dvd of the FOX dub. Still have the vhs just not a vhs player

[@carolyoung2831]

Love your comments on Totoro prefer the original with subtitles!

[@PatR-d2x]

Love this objective content. You have a great voice.

[@russianmansmwc]

I agree that people should analyze reviews and what people say and use that information instead of putting stock on numbers that don't mean anything. That said, i still like numbers because they're funny.

[@cl8804]

5.9 literally means that you like the work in question, though

[@xemphanis6686]

Great video. I’ve thought about this a lot and there’s a couple things I think were missing. Video game reviews have long been based on film reviews, and I believe that is a mistake. The interactivity of games makes them much more difficult to analyze, especially as they’ve become more complex. When people watch a movie, they see the same movie. It may affect them differently, but it’s the same content. With video games, every experience is absolutely unique because we each play differently. There’s also a conversation to be had with how we discuss video games and produced art. Too frequently I don’t think we separate those things. To me, reviews and review scores are meant to rate a game as a product. Should I buy this thing? It’s not necessarily artistic criticism. I think that’s why so many people get upset by positive Call of Duty reviews, however, as a long time CoD player, it’s fun. Those games aren’t artful, but they successfully do what they’re meant to do as a product. It’s why I enjoy video essays when it comes to video game criticism. That allows someone to take a deeper dive into the content and look at it from an artistic perspective. Similarly to why movie reviews work better because there are established rules of that medium and what is considered good and bad when making a film. But again, great video.

[@SkittySol]

How does he keep on making HITS?! Honestly, after I found out that I much prefer having my own thoughts, often being insulted as being a hipster for not going with the flow of peoples majority opinion, but then the conversation steers from the object/media being discussed to a slapfight on whether it made me feel a certain way, which further derails into a slapfight. I think the problem is more than just some aggregate score as people refuse to acknowledge that the media they consume can be bad and still like it. Cringe culture and its consequences. I think Jeff the Killer is a better representation of old internet horror than ted the caver, not from some idea of quality, but rather how it instills the fear or makes one feel. Spec ops the line is a barometer, as is bioshock, on whether morals matter to you as a person. I think bioshock ultimately fails with its idea of morals being tied to a gameplay feature thus devaluing the choice. Spec ops the line forces you towards the invetiable and whilst being a brick to the face, it asks the exact same question just with different parameters. Though we live in an age, at least on the internet, of consumption, not quality, it's why people bemoan slop content yet continue to watch it. The ultimate failing isn't on one faultline its from a feeling: discomfort. No one wants to feel uncomfortable, no one wants to try something different. I read through Tom Clancys Jack Ryan series and you know what I thought? Book one was great, book 2 to 6 were terrible, but I continued to read those terrible books because I enjoy the way Clancy writes his scenes, I love disecting his choices and how he uses certain words and portrays characters. Though, that ultimately is... subjective, isn't it? Review score of 8.5/10 for this video ;)

[@widoseidel497]

This is a very good comment.

[@dr.almimoni6856]

Glinstone, your channel is a gem, so please never stop making videos. I hope this comment helps with the algorithm

[@GredGlintstone]

I appreciate that!

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

1. Oh my golly, I am an outlier demographic here. 2. That’s ok, Gred’s work speaks to me, regardless. 3. Bluh bluh bluh 4. I’ve been emotionally fortifying myself to experience SH2 with Gred. I’m getting ready. I’m working on myself for it.

[@GredGlintstone]

It's very intense so definitely leave it for when you're in a good state of mind!

[@Sinhesthysia]

3:28 "very pretentious" --proceeds to make a video that is more self reflective of not only your own channel, but yourself as a person, than any other channel I have ever seen.

[@xvct2661]

Democracy manifest lol rip jack karlson

[@Noremedy634]

As a Sonic fan, I didn't realize "objectively bad games" like Sonic 06 were bad until I started to use the internet more and more

[@EnderGraff1]

Right? Like going to blockbuster and randomly renting some ps2 game and having fun with it. If you had a smartphone and looked up reviews before you probably would’ve just skipped it. I feel like this mentality continues with “meta builds” in games where instead of experimenting with the mechanics, you look up the strats the community are using best. It’s some good and bad depending on how you interact with it.

[@christayloralter]

A very important video that more people should see.

[@AndrewThePoet]

This is indeed a very good video! :D

[@at4nas]

Objectively speaking, you won me over.

[@aersla1731]

Interesting times where a video like this has to be made to explain how reviewing media works... Not complaining, I am obviously here, I like to hear that people like you exist in the world, or in online spaces. Still, can't help but feel odd that certain things still have to be said. By far one of my favorite new channels I had discovered, banger after banger, of course I am bias in stating that I enjoy the media you create.

[@benzur3503]

13:30 verifiability is a subjective quality though: a person can check and discover that it seems to them what would the event be if they didnt check. But they had to check to know

[@bitz6562]

the metroid dread hate boggled my mind with how sudden it was

[@GredGlintstone]

soz I didn't like it. Had to come up with an example of something I hated that everyone loves and thats what jumped to mind. I was really disappointed by it.