The Problem with “Subject To” Real Estate (Losing $180,000)

Episode #956
"Subject to" real estate has been exploding in popularity. When mortgage rates began to rise, subject to (often called sub to) came in as the hero to save the day. This real estate investing strategy offered investors the chance to take over low-interest-rate loans from homeowners who wanted to sell their properties. And, with often a minimal down payment required, new and experienced investors lined up to give this fast-scaling strategy a try. Without even knowing it, Tanner Litchfield did the same.
After being brought a home run, three-percent mortgage rate deal, Tanner knew he had to act quickly to secure what would be a massive passive income play. He put down a six-figure down payment to secure it, with another seventy thousand dollars in renovation costs. Things were rolling smoothly until…they weren’t. Tanner lost every penny he put into this property and the property itself while another investor walked away with it in hand. How did this happen, and how do YOU avoid a six-figure creative financing mistake?
In today’s episode, Tanner walks through every difficult detail of this deal gone wrong. He shares the red flags he should have seen in the beginning and the one thing that could have saved him from this deadly deal. If you’re interested in seller financing, subject to, or any other type of creative financing, you MUST listen to this episode, or you could be hit with a six-figure loss, too.
~~~~
Join BiggerPockets for FREE 👇
www.biggerpockets.com/signup?...
~~~~
Expand Your Investing Knowledge With the BiggerPockets Books:
store.biggerpockets.com/?utm_...
~~~~
Find an Investor-Friendly Agent in Your Area:
biggerpockets.com/agentmatch
~~~~
Find Investor-Friendly Lenders:
biggerpockets.com/findlenders
~~~~
Property Manager Finder:
biggerpockets.com/findapm
~~~~
Hear Dave and Henry on the “On the Market” Podcast:
link.chtbl.com/OTM
~~~~
The Hidden Risks of “Subject To” Real Estate w/Eddie Speed:
www.biggerpockets.com/blog/on...
~~~~
Creative Financing: How To Use It In Real Estate:
www.biggerpockets.com/blog/cr...
~~~~
Connect with Tanner on BiggerPockets:
www.biggerpockets.com/users/t...
~~~~
Connect with Dave:
BiggerPockets: www.biggerpockets.com/users/d...
Instagram: @thedatadeli or / thedatadeli
~~~~
Connect with Henry:
BiggerPockets: www.biggerpockets.com/users/h...
Henry: @thehenrywashington or / thehenrywashington
Show notes at: link.chtbl.com/BPRE
00:00 Intro
01:20 Ditching Dentistry to Invest
04:35 Finding Creative Financing
06:15 A Perfect Deal on Paper
09:42 Scoring a 3% Interest Rate?
12:14 Things Go Really Wrong
20:33 A Massive "Gray Area"
25:01 A Chance of Recovering?
29:45 What Tanner Would Do Differently

[@tedmiller5633]

Completely disagree with Henry at the end saying the seller was a “victim”. The buyer bailed out that seller from the beginning. From what the buyer was saying, his entry was 110k, 10k to wholesaler, 26k to agent, that leaves 74k roughly to seller and arrears. Not bad for them. Plus don’t know what happened to the original 20k going to arrears? Did they go to the seller as well. Then the seller got the extra 40k. Yea the seller got a foreclosure on their record but they were already behind and living for free for 20k worth of time, then got 56k, then got an additional 40k? If the seller really cared more about their credit than cash, they should of helped out the situation with the arrears to see what was happening. Biggest victim here by a long shot was the buyer getting screwed by the wholesaler/agent not making sure the loan was properly reinstated when he bought the property. It’s on the buyer as well but could see how it could happen if he was new to subto deals

[@PaceMorby]

Always have someone help you underwrite the deal. Always have a toptier TC help with paperwork. Also, these problems are not Subject To specific. BRRRR and other strategies can lose you money if done wrong too. All strategies can and will lose you money when done incorrectly or not verified its a good deal. Great video. Happy Sunday!

[@theinvestortanner]

I got involved in SubTo after this L... If I wouldve taken advantage of the resources there this forsure would have never happened.

[@krystofpilisiewicz1154]

I was going to tell this guy or anyone who wants to do subto to start listening to him

[@alexmmm1889]

Pace do you have any video explaining all the bad things that can go wrong in subto deal in detail? I watched some video of due on clause but not much more.... It would be incredible to have knowledge of how we can protect for something like this

[@martinso246]

Whats a TC?

[@kaleb4256]

@@martinso246transaction coordinator

[@Randalpepper-ij4iq]

One time I gave a lot of money to a guy that said trust me I got you… he went in an apartment for drugs and left out the back door…. Fortunately, I was 17 and a lot of money was $50. Since then, I have never made a deal through a third party without all the cards on the table. I have never let someone rush me to read fast at closing, I have never trusted the deal that I can’t talk to everyone involved. If someone is hiding something then everyone is helping to hide it. Best part of this video is the that no one really knows what they are doing… it’s the truth so when your instincts tell you to back out or slow down, always listen. Most crucial mistakes you have to talk yourself into because you know they aren’t good for you in the first place… then you prove it to yourself. Never losing and winning small is better than huge up’s and downs… real estate will always be a long term game to win… 😊

[@theinvestortanner]

Thanks for having me on!

[@jessio4312]

Jesus this is wild. Time to go to church once a week 😂

[@IssacEinstein]

I appreciate your accountability. I have a question for you. Specifically, what has changed for you since this debacle? Would you ever do a “Subject to” or any sort of creative financing again?

[@nevido84]

Hey Tanner this video was spot on. I have a hard time in believing seller is victim too. Did you not pay seller any funds in excess of after paying wholesaler and agent and never got that money back and also seller got full auction sale and surplus of $40k as well?

[@rochellejordan1835]

Could you have put that house in a land trust?

[@rashidkhalil4631]

Reference to 1934 Communication will be coming to the buyer because first day after you buy you change the mailing address email address, contact phone number password to the website everything after submitting the power of attorney. Seller have no access to the lender login anymore and is not receiving any information line within a few weeks. You also actually receive a letter from the lender that your contact information have been updated as requested.

[@michaelgrey9544]

Here’s what I would have done to protect myself: cloud title! Lien the property via DOT in jr position like; a second mortgage via an entity (llc,S or C corp, etc.) that I control when I had title to the deed prior to transitioning back to contract for deed. This would provide me redemption rights as a lender - Endangered Collateral Law. You may not be able to own the property but, anyone or entity can collateralize debt. At a minimum I would have received the auction overage. Totally legitimate considering improvements made. My experience: mortgage broker, licensed title examiner / escrow officer, wholesaler, investor. Since 98. I have stories to tell.

[@raymohyde422]

Name wholesaler and RE agent

[@theinvestortanner]

Jason Watson in Utah was the Wholesaler. I forget the agents name as I wasn't talking with him as much.

[@RealEstateKentucky]

@@theinvestortannerif the agent double ended the deal, doesn’t that mean they were also technically representing you. Meaning they had a fiduciary responsibility to protect your interests.

[@bubbleboy821]

Criminals

[@theinvestortanner]

They were technically representing the wholesaler who then assigned it me was my understanding. In assignment agreement, I forfeited a lot of my rights for the “sake of the deal”.

[@CamoronMireCat]

Name and shame

[@courtneyantonio1608]

I have had some expenses courses in the college of hard knocks, but none with those kinds of twists. The more I listened the more it sounded like a well orchestrated setup or con job drawn up by Madoff himself. Like no financial release of information, no title insurance, no third party servicer, no closing attorney or title company to ensure that the check was sent and received by the loan servicer and to also review the title and deed. That was just wild. He clearly saw it was a lack of information and processes and corrected that. Kudos for him. Sincerely glad that he was able to learn and grow from the experience.

[@johnnyb33good21]

Hurts hearing all this but needs to be listened to

[@zeekflash6924]

The wholesaler and agent , should have to return there fees .. fraud , they knew it was a low income property..

[@0byy]

Great Episode. Thanks for sharing!

[@soaring8467]

Thanks for sharing the lesson learned. I find it more useful than just sharing the success stories on KZbin videos. As far as seller financing, do note technically the seller can still do seller financing on a subto mortgage as well so be careful about that, and even a combo of subto and seller financing as a wrap around mortgage. So just by focusing on seller financing option, make sure to check if the house is owned free and clear. If not, always get your attorney to have the seller sign a poa as part of closing, before the money is wired to protect you from this type of situation. And ask to be added as an authorized user on the bank portal so you don’t have to play three way telephone call every time and you can manage the mortgage relationship with the bank directly. Sorry for this mishap but you have the right perspective to own it and use it to grow even more.

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you! Yes the all inclusive wraps are popular here in Utah even though they carry the same risks.

[@soaring8467]

@@theinvestortanner and that’s even adding another layer if one component is not done correctly, then the investor in the middle of transaction is liable for both buying and selling. It can be lucrative don’t get me wrong, but everyone should be honest about their risk tolerance before jumping in. Speaking from my personal experience.

[@lifeforgod07]

Wow, thank you for posting this video! Great lessons here

[@rickfromjersey8098]

Great video, its not easy to talk about the mistakes thank you for sharing.

[@BrettMaverick]

28:00 naw f*ck that they sold in bad faith

[@Roman_ABC]

This is great that he's able to share this story and I'm so sorry that this happened. At the end of the day he still has 2 hands, 2 legs and life is going forward. Just keep going and thank you so much for sharing the story...

[@phillipwhite8767]

Amazing interview… thanks for being willing to share your experience!!!

[@theinvestortanner]

Thanks for the comment Phillip!

[@skybox3550]

Thanks for being real and sharing an actual situation that can happen.

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you man!

[@Dominknows]

26:00 someone might come up missing if this happened to me

[@geesmith3107]

Some of my takeaways from this: 1. When considering a "sub-to" deal be aware of the type of housing (i.e. low income owner occupancy requirements) considering it may easily trigger a due-on-sale action from the lender. 2. Avoid large downpayments for sub-to deals 3. Contract-for-deed does not stop a due-on-sale action and takes away the investor's ownership rights. 4. When new to an area or a creative deal find your own Trustworthy counsel knowledgeable of local, real estate investing to look things over. This may help minimize loss.

[@user-zj6zp1eq2v]

Thanks for sharing. We need more of this truth telling on what can happen when things go wrong. Great episode.

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you! I try to talk about the L's as much as the W's. This industry isn't all rainbows.

[@BrandonMendoza]

Thank you for sharing your story Tanner.

[@theinvestortanner]

Of course! Thank you for listening!

[@gustavopitai9214]

I have not listened to bigger pockets in a long time, great episode

[@peace-1712]

In business, when we aim to win we must take losses sometimes. I've been through something similar & I know how hard it is but its always the best learning experience that elevates us in our field and experience.

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you for the comment!

[@odvega76]

Thank you!

[@qaiserqureshi4024]

Thanks for sharing your story to save other investors. I am 200 percent sure that in days to come you will make tons of money. God Bless you. Regards

[@theinvestortanner]

Thanks for the comment! I'm hoping thats the case!

[@robertsewell6199]

Thank you for sharing your story for others to learn from. But what happened to the $20,000 that was supposed to make the loan current? Where did that money go?

[@glamorgirly]

Such a great story and a learning lesson for all of us

[@theinvestortanner]

thank you!

[@RyanRytrades]

Brutal man, way to keep your head up!

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you sir!

[@wendyyvonne]

Did I miss something? How is a $450K property a low-income property? Was this a multi-family? Please enlighten me. Thank you.

[@funnystories77]

Exactly! How is a low income owner occupant going to come up with anywhere near that cash? Something is unclear.

[@theinvestortanner]

$450k is a starter home here in Utah. When it was originally purchased, it was probably around $300k.

[@wendyyvonne]

@@theinvestortanner $450K for a starter home? Please let me know what part of Utah that is, so I can stay far away! 🤣

[@theinvestortanner]

@@wendyyvonne stay out of most of Utah then haha

[@wendyyvonne]

@@theinvestortanner I used to own acreage there that has probably 20X'd in value. Worst selling decision ever on my part! I'm priced out now.

[@sonnytimpkins9699]

Great job Tanner, great attitude, keep it up you will go far..

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you!!

[@kjwking3923]

His attitude is Excellent!! I'm certain it contributed to his quick bounce back within the year.

[@leidus]

Where in the closing documents would the owner occupant / income restriction information have been? How was title transferred title company or attorney?

[@theinvestortanner]

Title company. I can’t recall but if you reach out and email me, I don’t mind sharing the closing docs. There were definitely some red flags after it all unfolded, but I looked past it.

[@isaacsanchez8309]

It should have been on the title report. Not sure how title allowed this transaction to close knowing it was an investment transaction. You should try filing a claim on your title insurance. Hopefully recoup some money

[@alfalogic]

Holy crap. Paying 110k without being in control of the deal or without basic due diligence. Really expensive leasson.

[@theinvestortanner]

Exactly. Tough one. My business has made some major changes though that have paid for most of this back because of it.

[@alfalogic]

@@theinvestortanner I bet.

[@johnm3435]

That is a crazy story. A lot to learn from this. Glad that he has such a great outlook on real estate still

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you!

[@rashidkhalil4631]

Did you ever login to the mortgage lender website in those months when you own the property to see if the areas have been cleared?

[@theinvestortanner]

We used an escrow servicing company.

[@rociozamora877]

Was the Income Restriction part of the Original Deed which prevented they type of ownership? Where in the loan or property documents was the low income ownership restriction?

[@theinvestortanner]

Yes it was a deed restriction. It was my fault for not reading contract thoroughly

[@rociozamora877]

@@theinvestortanner Ooohh Okk.. Thanks for sharing your experience! I'm sure you will make that money back and more! Blessings.. 💞

[@theinvestortanner]

@@rociozamora877 Thank you, I appreciate it!

[@happypinatas2569]

Wow, I felt like I was watching a suspense movie. Thank you for sharing such a valuable lesson with us.

[@theinvestortanner]

Of course! Thanks for the comment.

[@ethanmurray2203]

If a licensed agent/broker was involved in the deal, seems like there would be liability by that broker for deceptive, semi-illegal deal.

[@florianewu1886]

We can either Win or Learn. Bravo for choosing to Learn and turn this scammed ordeal into your current superpower now! Kudos to your Winner attitude!

[@theinvestortanner]

Thank you!

[@tyjameson7404]

Epic panel with great real estate investor education 👍💔🙏🔥🙌🏾nobody talks about the failures of sub-2 investing 👍🙏💰💔🙌🏾🔥

[@eniduj84]

Wow I love at the end when he says...at the end of the day I'm the one to blame

[@theinvestortanner]

Thanks man. Victim mindset would’ve put me in a much deeper hole that I’d still be crawling out of

[@tammyrussell-rice5508]

The one and only "deal" I ever looked at from a Wholeseller stunk like an onion. And, the more I peeled it the worse it got. For starters, my Agent and I learned that there was a $100K lien on the property?! Apparently, the Wholesaler eventually dropped the listing or was dropped by Seller, because it ultimately came on the Market as a FSBO.

[@theinvestortanner]

Good on you!

[@larrynusbaum9193]

because anyone can show up at the sale and outbid the bank by $1. The bank's credit bid is based on loan balance plus costs.

[@seanm4887]

Here to see pace shill his business

[@OldVetNerdSage]

100% hahaha

[@sonnytimpkins9699]

This is not a hot new strategy, nor something new, nor something Pace come up with. Its been around since the 60's called an assumption/subject to, that I know of for sure. My parents bought 4 houses as we were growing up on subto/assumption.

[@theinvestortanner]

Facts!

[@puzedprojeckts]

So what did happen to the 20k for arrears? Did someone just run off with that? Also, Tanner will you ever sub-to again or only entertain strictly seller financing? Or are you considering direct to seller sub-to as seller financing (no wholesale)?

[@theinvestortanner]

I will do a SubTo again but never this loan product again and definitely not this much down payment. I like true seller financing much more though because of the grey area here.

[@tyjameson7404]

This was pure madness!! A non-novice investor gets burned heavy ! wtf 🤬

[@TomHallhomebuyingokc]

Love the fact you took 100% responsibility ❤

[@theinvestortanner]

Got to or else I can't grow! Thank you brother!

[@TomHallhomebuyingokc]

@@theinvestortanner Amen! I tell my kids that even if you're walking down the street and someone bumps into you and causes you to spill your coffee you still need to take the responsibility of it happening because there probably was something you could have done or not done to avoid letting them bump into you.

[@Blackberie]

Two words that should never be used in the same sentence… Trust & Wholesaler

[@theinvestortanner]

WORDDDD

[@eliot5220]

This is why I never deal with wholesalers. This was a terrible deal to begin with. It sounds like a single family residence for $400,000. That’s crazy . He could have bought an apartment building for that much.

[@miker8687]

The part at the end with Henry calling the seller a victim is not true whatsoever, the buyer sold their house, and if it was due to foreclosure, etc. that is their own fault, that does not make them a victim. Let’s not play that game Henry.

[@larrynusbaum9193]

It's a Wrap Loan and you are reliant on the your seller to maintain his relationship with the lender. That was a mistake in judgement given he was $20,000 in arrears. Did you get a title commitment? I smell a conspiracy as Bank never enforce the "due on sale" clause. Why? Because they never find out about it. So where is the conspiracy? Maybe the homeowner (and agent) told the bank knowing the next step was convincing you to deed the property back. One more thing...first notice is just announcing notice for lender intent. Second is date of the sale, whether sheriff sale or judicial foreclosure sale. This Wrap Loan structure has been around for decades.

[@stevemorris2343]

Bummer man. Unfortunate deal

[@IllinoisREI23]

Big Henry still dropping "right?" to end every sentence.

[@ronniepratt8710]

And tell me why the wholesaler and the agent is not in jail for fraud.

[@TomHallhomebuyingokc]

What happened to the missing 20k wire

[@theinvestortanner]

Still in outer space supposedly.

[@OneLeggedTarantula]

not as much as a subject to issue (fixable) but a fine print deed restriction. sue the title company for errors & omissions.

[@johnnyb33good21]

Did Tanner ever personally reach out to the original owner about this deal going to foreclosure or after foreclosure when the original owner received $40k of Tanner's money?

[@theinvestortanner]

Yes, I tried hard. This is a short version of the story. I have a KZbin video that goes more in depth on it.

[@johnnyb33good21]

@theinvestortanner good job being open and transparent and sharing wins and loses.

[@user-hu9fx8yf2v]

Clickbait title…BiggerPockets reigns as the master of real estate investing. However, rather than striving to genuinely understand the intricacies of creative financing, they seem to react with attacks and apparent jealousy. Additionally, their significant investments in the lending sector conflict with their interests. Whatever the underlying reason, it's disappointing.

[@tyjameson7404]

So I am like both the co-hosts! I had to watch this video twice. This wasn’t a rookie investor? He had 15 doors 🚪 and got burned on his first sub-2 deal?

[@joshrweb]

But he knew nothing about subto. He was a rookie in that area.

[@theinvestortanner]

@@joshrweb This is true. That's the lesson is these creative deals arent as simple as portrayed.

[@MrChuckwud]

I only do creative financing on "pretty houses"

[@theinvestortanner]

Smart. Cleaner the better!

[@JoshCorby18]

What does this have to do with SubTo? This sounds like a lack of vetting by you

[@theinvestortanner]

100% on me. But this specific type of L is SubTo related as the property was being foreclosed on out from underneath me.

[@bubbleboy821]

It wouldn't have been as bad if he just did owner financing

[@eugeneeugene3093]

What happened to your 20k from the title company? Did they steal from you?

[@mushasho]

Didn't know the difference between subto and seller finance...

[@westonsteg]

Utah housing authority!! 🤯🤯

[@blakehenderson9689]

I don't understand how arrears weren't paid through closing. That would have most likely satisfied the bank and prevented DOS

[@theinvestortanner]

Neither do I. My attorneys assumed the wire didn’t go through somehow from escrow to bank? I won’t do a transaction now without my title team for this exact reason.

[@blakehenderson9689]

@@theinvestortanner Yeah that's crazy it didn't go directly to the bank. No title insurance? I got burned and learned a 100k lesson too, you're not alone. Thanks for sharing your story. Real estate is cutt throat and Newer investors are the most vulnerable to life altering losses if they're inpatient, too trusting, and not risk averse. So much "Get Rich Quick", "Retire at 25", etc. stories and fallacies

[@ingosiris]

Great story. Lot to learn from. Im sure you will multiply that lost in no time. Good luck!!!

[@mitchinvestor]

@@theinvestortannerI was about to ask that same question. If you paid the rears up to date at closing, that should have been it. Were you paying the monthly Mortgage yourself at the time?

[@theinvestortanner]

@@blakehenderson9689 exactly. Thats why I want to scream this story from the roof tops. Thanks for the comment brother!

[@CryptoGod79]

Crazy 😮

[@ArtisticallyAspiring]

I get what’s he’s saying i just didn’t like how he kept interrupting him.

[@shamani5094]

For a new investor, who wasn't low income, buying the property at auction, seems like a kickback, nepotism, or other kind of fraud occured as well.

[@pberggre]

There’s always around this happening aren’t there?

[@kjwking3923]

Would he have been able to put a lien on the title?

[@masoncnc]

Moral turpitude......

[@itsonme7767]

Some sheisters you dealt with there. It’ll come back to them.

[@alexbent3852]

What should have happened Get a power of attorney to check on the loan Always make sure the lender is getting paid. Plus it wasn't a great deal tbh. If there is little equity don't touch it.

[@tyjameson7404]

Henry was so sympathetic but angry at the same time !! Henry is right! Both parties got played!!💔👎🏾a recipe for disaster due to the wholesaler/grifter being shady and a novice real estate investor who didn’t do his due diligence 💔🔥🤬on sub-2🙏💰⚡️

[@edgonzalez186]

How old is he?... Doing deals since 2018? After deciding not to pursue dentist specialty in med school? Seems like he was aspiring being a dentists, but I doubt that he was in med school. 15 properties at his appearance age is formidable.

[@theinvestortanner]

I started doing real estate in my undergrad. I never went to dental school. I’m 28

[@NoNameAfterGoogleChangedit]

Why did you not just form an entity also to put the house in? If the other entity can own it, why can’t an entity you own, own it?

[@larrynusbaum9193]

Recourse: sue the real estate brokerage firm for misrepresentation. Act as pro se

[@rochellejordan1835]

Could tanner put that house in a land trust ?

[@javierarroyo9765]

If I was Tanner I'd have unded up in one of those Utah penitentiaries

[@theinvestortanner]

LOLOL

[@realestateguru8769]

Pacific Northwest ROCKS

[@theinvestortanner]

amen!

[@levimcfadden7276]

The bank is in on this scam. Tanner needs to name names and look into the investor that bought that property. Contact the DOJ and IRS. The money trail will reveal itself.

[@that9blife465]

We need names !

[@carltondarville5387]

Finesse game

[@jamafia97]

sue them

[@TheBeamingwil]

RE agent needs to figure out how to give commission back or get wrecked

[@alyross2850]

What kind of low income person could buy a 400K plus home?

[@sonnytimpkins9699]

need to talk more about the low income situation, who ,what, when, where ,why..organization, how would you know this info, where to find it,etc..dont talk about it if you cant educate us on it, just leave us hanging.

[@johnPxIV]

Nobody did their homework. That was the problem.

[@markmfalme]

You have to gain online access to the mortgage account as the sub2 investor after you catch up the loan. Sorry they twisted your arm man.

[@theinvestortanner]

Yeah something I definitely learned here. Only way is up from here haha.

[@funnystories77]

Two issues. First, how is a low income owner occupant going to come up with anywhere near that cash? Second, how can an investor win the auction, if the property was deed restricted to low income owner occupants? These two issues are unclear.

[@theinvestortanner]

That’s what’s crazy is my attorney said I couldn’t buy at auction because of this… still many aspects of this I’m confused about after talking to experts

[@funnystories77]

@@theinvestortanner Get a smart attorney & don't walk away from this, even if you get a little, it will be a great lesson.

[@CamoronMireCat]

This was next level cursed my god

[@faithsrvtrip8768]

A Facebook group. Oh hell no! Trust must be earned I don't care how much money someone says they have / had. People lied and this guy paid.

[@tyjameson7404]

Fee simple…the bank doesn’t care about side deals that are dirty’

[@capecodero]

Holy shit wow

[@jjsupremeorta15]

Due diligence.

[@theinvestortanner]

Retweet!

[@alexbent3852]

If the loan is called...REFI

[@JGENIUSFOX]

Wow. I was seriously thinking about "Subject To". No more!!!!

[@steppaboss]

There is nothing wrong with doing Sub2. Seller financing is one of the best way to purchase RE no money down.

[@NoNameAfterGoogleChangedit]

A low income home sold for $450k?!?! High income earners can’t even afford that.

[@philipvonwrede477]

Is the wholesaler Pace Morby by any chance?