The Problem with "The College Experience" | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)

Professors Glenn Loury and Daniel Bessner join Bill to discuss the transformation taking place in American universities.

[@Robert_Westwood]

What do those administrators do? Drive up tuition costs...

[@Zenithx3]

Exactly.

[@heckensteiner4713]

And make sure all the kids are coddled.

[@ticenits1926]

I've worked at a university before, and only 33% of people are actually needed and do real work, the rest are hired as filler material in the event that the actual productive employees end up leaving for some reason. The way their budgets are established, in particular through government funding, requires that they overspend in order to make sure that they're able keep those positions opened in the future if needed.

[@ukhawaja]

The description of college sounds like a 4 year Coachella experience.

[@MS-rj6ki]

You see the speakers on the show only mentioned the true problem briefly. The problem is the offer of a government backed loan that allows the university to keep expanding administrative positions. Meanwhile the students are signing up for indentured servitude (no bankruptcy). Only one solution exists. Nobody on the show is willing to say it.

[@Zoe-ge3kx]

I work in higher education, and it is true. We have as many administrators as we do full-time professors. Professors are treated like factory workers while the administrators enrich themselves. This system is not working.

[@MacNif]

That is ass backwards

[@1jesus2music3duke]

Imagine what it’s like for doctoral students

[@dougdellwo3274]

The system is working. It is designed to take money from the families who pay for their kids to go there and to lessen the cost of professors. It need to be a business but one that educates. That necessitates letting students fail if they are not able to do the work well. Students are the consumers and the proof of their consumption or lack thereof are the grades in the classes. Everyone deserves a grade but not necessarily a good one if they did not earn it.

[@theminister1154]

It's really very simple: Fire every DEI, every counselor except one or two for severe mental illness, fire all promo, fire all student co-ordinators except one / dept. Etc. Then fire 3/4 of everyone else. Professors not included. IMMEDIATELY refund all the money against tuition. This seems extreme, but they would make do. It will never happen though, because it would mostly be women being fired. I know several college administrators; in every case they say the hardest working guy in the office is, well, a guy.

[@fuckamericanidiot]

​@@dougdellwo3274 What does that have to with a surplus of admin staff.....

[@milothecorgi12]

When I was in my PhD at a big name private university, I was required to attend the TA Orientation on main campus before I was allowed to be a Teaching Assistant for any class to fulfill my degree requirement. I left my usual 10 hr per day lab grind at the medical campus and went to main campus for this. The orientation was literally an army of bubbly administrators handing out orange slices, ice cream and leading us in games of heads up, seven up. Suddenly, I felt like I was 9 years old at Summer camp again. These administrators have the absolute cushiest jobs imaginable. They hang out all day socializing and virtue signaling on the beautiful campuses that the indebted teenage customers and their parents fund.

[@theminister1154]

You could literally.... _LITERALLY_ .... fire 6 of 10 college administrators & outsource the work of 2 of 10 more to India or the Phillipines & everything would run just find within 6 months presuming you kept the right men. And yes, you'd be keeping a majority of men.

[@tk000]

Unfortunately, your wordy anecdote about a private university is irrelevant since private companies can do whatever they want. Fiscal responsibility at public universities and colleges is what's of potential concern.

[@Annapurna818]

Same in the workplace.

[@deadheadwsp705]

@@tk000 it’s the same at public universities.

[@tk000]

@@deadheadwsp705 Completely incorrect. A for-profit (private) university or educational institution can and will go out of business if it under performs, is too expensive, is mismanaged, etc; and I can easily name some that have. But I doubt you can name public colleges that have gone under because they become costly and bloated.

[@hutch1197]

My friend is a professor at Northwestern University, and she said that it's criminal how much of the budget goes to toward do-nothing administrators.

[@slicktheslickster]

Problem is...the money is there; if you don't allocate it and spend it, the money goes elsewhere.

[@hutch1197]

@@slicktheslickster I understand that. And God forbid that money goes back to the students in the form of lower tuition.

[@slicktheslickster]

I graduated from NU...way way way over-priced...they tout themselves as an 'Ivy-league'-quality institution just for that reason.

[@prism8289]

Actually, it studies across all jobs across all industries, the least stressful job of all is college professor. They are right, while college have added an insane amount of services, the truth is the administrators are understaffed for what they have to do. Pay levels among rank and file haven’t gone up in 20 years, not even up for inflation. The problem with profs is they think students just magically show up. Unless you’re Harvard or Yale, it ain’t happening. My brother was a VP and GM for a Fortune 500. I was a Director of Admissions. He got to see what i did. He said his job wasn’t nearly as complex as mine. I am entirely against what has become of colleges, and how expensive they are, but very few people - especially profs who don’t work directly with core admin - have zero idea what goes on.

[@hutch1197]

@@prism8289 Well, than that goes to college leadership, I suppose. If people in different departments don't know what's going on with one another and nobody can explain the cost increases, then we have a catastrophic problem. I'm all for student loan debt forgiveness and tuition assistance, but that needs to come with accountability. If a college is going to receive state or federal accreditation, a full financial audit is in order. It's criminal that nobody is drilling into why tuition has exploded at 10x the rate of inflation.

[@Patrick-bu5vy]

I worked with a guy once who did nothing but go from meeting to meeting. He bragged about how busy he was all the time but never did any actual work. He wasn’t even a senior manager he just had nobody holding him accountable. Far too many of these ‘busy braggers’ these days who don’t do anything.

[@grouchomarxist666]

I worked at a corporation for 11 years and watched the entire management team do the same thing. I hated getting dragged into meetings. When I was, I'd estimate the combined salary in the room and calculate what the company was paying us to exchange buzzwords.

[@GGoAwayy]

I always wonder what Im expected to do when my 8 hour workday is filled up with up to 5 hour-long, repeating weekly, meetings? Stay an extra 5 hours? They literally give you no time AT work to code, and force you to code in your "free time" at home after hours.

[@rvdb7363]

​@@GGoAwayy that's why I love online meetings. They allow you to continue working as long as they say nothing constructive or relevant for your team/project

[@ticenits1926]

Welcome to the world of middle management, these are the people desperately trying to get people to return to the office, because it's the only way to justify their own existence

[@GGoAwayy]

@@rvdb7363 Yeah theyre a GREAT waste of time 😀

[@jakecruise90]

I spent over 10 years now at a university studying to get a doctorate, and in all that time, I've never had an application processed in a timely manner not to mention countless interactions I've had with rude , aging and lazy staff who could easily be replaced by a far more efficient calculator.

[@firstlast9292]

If universities are run like businesses, then logically they would be replaced if that was possible. But that isn't happening. Know why? Because you are clueless on the subject, even if you have a doctorate in something.

[@chichim2020]

You shouldn’t be allowed to spend 10 years just studying for a piece of paper from a University. Complete waste of time.

[@melliott3681]

I've worked with more of these entitled fossils you refer to than I care to admit. While they are an issue that has corrupted our once great institutions, in comparison the top-heavy administration has done more harm, along with universities focusing completely on sports, and anything else that will bring in the big bucks. Less and less focus on the educational component.

[@Tadicuslegion78]

I have worked with that kind of staff who can't be bothered to be there on the day we agreed upon for them to be there, and I have worked with staff who have their sh8t together and are so easy to work with because they are prepared

[@fakename45]

@PF Chim Einstein spent 10 years working on the theory of general relativity, without which we would not have any of the communication, satellites & GPS that we take for granted today. Some things are worth studying for 10 years, do not make assumptions about things you don't know.

[@mrdanjames]

Finally! A discussion about the actual problems in universities as opposed to ‘wokeness’. Performative administration, ‘experience’ and customer satisfaction. Also, the incentives to cut staff and build recreational facilities, because the customer doesn’t want an education, they just want the piece of paper they paid for and a good time. Also, the senior administration that have brain waves and expect all staff to drop everything to work on the latest dumb idea they had.

[@KP99]

What were you on when you watched this video?? It was about the complete opposite of "incentives to cut staff" 🤣

[@mrdanjames]

@@KP99 you missed the bit about casualising academics. Cutting by stealth.

[@mrdanjames]

To clarify, most Unis have casualised lecturers while bloating administration.

[@GregKingston]

The 'college experience " focus has perpetuated the wokeness. They take a" customer is always right" approach with the smallest and loudest minority. They are worried about getting blasted online, so they bow to the students instead of telling them no.

[@KP99]

@@GregKingston That explains it! I've been wondering about this for a long time. But, why would this be the case at state universities? They are not private colleges that need to attract customers. They already have a natural customer base that will always be there.

[@jimichan7649]

When I taught at university, we held students responsible for learning the material and graded accordingly. A shocking number of students showed up totally unprepared and failed. Then, administrators started insisting that the pass rate go up, so the bar was lowered. I once taught a course in the college of education and discovered that about half of the future teachers taking the course were just dismal students. That explained why so many students coming in were so bad. I then tried teaching at the secondary level. I think the worst thing about it, besides the low level of the faculty, was the incredibly inept administration.

[@seansull]

I am in engineering at one of the 10 largest universities by # students in the US and I can confidently say I have never, not once, ever taken a course where the professor or the university cared if I failed or not. Every teacher except for 1 was apathetic and didn’t care if students failed. The 1 exception? He intentionally MADE students fail. We had to compete amongst each other to see who would get an A.

[@jimichan7649]

@@seansull Did you ever go see your professor during office hours and ask for help? I was always glad to help students if they came and asked, but it very rarely happened. It was the same with all my colleagues. Most of us were very approachable, but students who did come by always waited until they were on the verge of failure, then came in and begged.

[@jgbeck1000]

@@seansull If you went to a research University then the professors are not there to teach - they are there to do research. Right, wrong or otherwise, these Profs see giving too much help to students a form of coddling - especially so in STEM fields (many colleagues have muttered, "If they need that much hand holding they'll never make it in engineering so why should I waste my time on them?"). American Students complain about this attitude but we issue many H1B visas because we cannot find enough qualified American graduates - everyone in Tech has sad stories of interviews of new graduates who got A's but cannot do anything.

[@beardzgorski8397]

I s/h applied there.. In Iowa, a C meant either doing the entire paper from scratch or risk failing..

[@jimichan7649]

@@beardzgorski8397 New College of Florida, where I did undergrad, was Pass/Fail and Pass was equivalent of an A. Has one of the highest percentages of students going on to grad schools in the US.

[@alancawfield6549]

It always seemed to me that college in America was seen by a lot of people as a rite of passage rather than a place you go to learn something useful so you can be employable. I went to college 100% purely to learn something so I could get a job, I had no college experience apart from going to classes and studying in the library, that is in reality what college should be but it's been sold in American culture as being a life experience where you "find yourself" which is pure bull**** in my opinion.

[@beardzgorski8397]

m/b for white ppl...

[@dane4453]

Alan sorry your college experience was terrible and you were dateless. I had a good time, and am successful post college.

[@emilner357]

So what you're trying to say is that you didn't get laid, right?

[@MrBrock314]

@@dane4453 His college experience was pretty normal. He may have gone on dates still, just not related to college. Dating in college isn't part of the thing. That's a human thing, not a college thing.

[@dane4453]

@@MrBrock314 Ok apologist.

[@bonedar333]

as someone who has worked in higher education for the past 17 yrs THANK YOU college has turned into a Karen factory

[@szn1580]

Nonstop indoctrination

[@willhiggins9563]

I feel they really hit the nail on the head here.

[@nepatrul6075]

I love likening college students to consumers. There is an incredible amount of college students who don’t care about anything other than the mentioned alcohol, drugs, and sex. It’s also why I hate the notion of being “educated” if you hold a college degree. College is not only a product now, but they’ve made getting in so easier to reflect this. Some of the most retarded people I’ve known are all college students. People who find alternative ways to get into careers and don’t buy into the hype are some of the smartest people in the country at this point.

[@kerrywsmyth]

@@nepatrul6075 To summarize and restate what you are saying, it seems like college is just a really expensive vacation.

[@junaidsajid8867]

They did! I ended the video with a "wow" because it was so crisp and direct

[@emsleywyatt3400]

@@nepatrul6075 How many of those college students you know are actually going to graduate?

[@nepatrul6075]

@@emsleywyatt3400 that’s the funny thing, I don’t know, but if they do, I swear they won’t do much with anything they learned/achieved in college, if they did learn or achieve anything, that is. I said how it’s easy to get into college now, and so, to me, it seems like a huge proportion of the people going to college are the immature high schoolers you remember going to school with. All the girls who care about nothing but popularity and their image, all the fuckboys who behave like douchebags because they think it’s cool, and the class clowns of all types who just couldn’t give less of a shit and skip school every other week. It feels like a pattern. These are all the dumbest immature people you grow up with and it seems these are the people so obsessed with college. Hence why I believe the smart people at this point are more likely to be what is considered “uneducated” at this point. Furthermore, when these are the most predominant people going to college, it makes a whole lot of sense why this country is in massive amounts of debt, has labor shortages, seeing more sex and childbirth out of wedlock, drug overdoses, you name it, than ever before.

[@samharper6323]

So true. Universities have become like corporations.

[@8BitNaptime]

I think another c-word comes to mind: a cult.

[@Robert_Westwood]

The president of my alma mater, a state university, is is a corner Republican governor of my state. Not gonna say I have evidence he runs the university like a corporation but the campus looks very post-industrial...

[@andrewthomas695]

Indeed. Only a fool would run a corporation like a University. So why did it suddenly become a good idea to run a University like a corporation? They serve completely different purposes. It's a bit like deciding to run a nunnery like a whore house.

[@levyroth]

And that's really good because academics are mostly highly trained morons who can't wipe their own asses.

[@chillones9574]

Many of them not care where you find work as long as they pump you with hope and get the government bell grants a flowing.

[@danwohlslagel1277]

When I went to College in the 90's, there were many older buildings ( which looked old inside & out), the "fitness center" was in the basement of the football stadium, and the dorms were like Eastern Bloc communist apartment towers. Now? Kids live in spaces that look like condos with their own bathrooms, the fitness center is a showplace of architectural modernity, and there is a multi-million dollar "Entertainment District" next to the school-- and now tuition is more than twice what it was when I finished in 2001. I'm sure that some of this was "organic" but most of it was planned- including the massive increase in tuition. THAT is why there are so many administrators, because it's a cash cow.

[@drdelaneyful]

Same here- I was a student athlete and it was terrifying going into the “facility” that housed the athletic offices and equipment. It was a dank, musty dungeon that I avoided except when I had to go to pick up my gear. Now they have this incredible complex that is all glass and brass like the frickin Louvre or something. Also I am a college professor and have definitely been told to pass students that couldn’t be bothered to show up for class, so yeah. Consumers are in charge.

[@donnarichardson7214]

Campuses are this way because that's what students demand. It's an "arms race" in which far too many second-rate schools, overbuilt during the Baby Boom, compete madly for the tiny pool of adequately-prepared students with SAT scores that will drive up the schools' rankings. Then they fill out the spaces with people paying to party for four years, get the appearance rather than the reality of education, and get "credentialed" to work in Starbuck's, the only place most of them are actually capable of working. Been there, had to try to teach them, done that.

[@mjm5081]

I went to college thirty years ago. And if memory serves me right, my professors seemed far more concerned with helping me learn how to think, rather than what to think.

[@bunnybgood411]

I went to college in the 1970s and grad school in the 1990s and what you say is true indeed.

[@mjm5081]

@@bunnybgood411 😃 👍 👊

[@icedrgon]

That's still the case amongst professors for the most part. We are more concerned with trying to get students to turn in their assignments and not plagiarize than we are trying to get them indoctrinated to the culture war battle of the week.

[@mjm5081]

@@icedrgon Thanks for the reply. I am grateful for the many wonderful teachers and professors I've been lucky to learn from. I hope your students respect and appreciate you. 😃

[@powerdriller4124]

Remember the scandal of actress Lori Loughlin, star of the sitcom Full House, about a college admission scam for her bratty daughter? Her daughter did not want to go to College, but Lori convinced her, telling her: _I want you to have the "College experience."_

[@svscared]

And what exactly is your point here? Just because one corrupt actress abused the system doesn't mean the college experience is bad or a scam itself.

[@all_bets_on_Ganesh]

She was a secondary character not the “star” of full house

[@theworkingwriters7214]

The said thing was she was doing fine doing her youtube make-up tutorials.

[@powerdriller4124]

@@svscared :: It means that College is being seen by many people as a kind of vacations time and place. I know that College also has zones, or islands, of excellence, where the bratards do not dare to enter (which is very good, they would be a nuisance), but more than 50% of the Colleges´ budget is being wasted in admin employees and entertaining bratards: sports, fraternity activities, parties, even shrinks! that´s a terrible squandering of resources.

[@MrBrock314]

@@powerdriller4124 I mean, SOME social activities and mental health resources are warranted but you don't need a 1:1 ratio of admin to students in any scenario. I work in a very small private high school and even I have 6 students in a class. And the admin to student ratio is 3:200.

[@virioguidostipa5681]

You don't need to go to college to appreciate insanity. I am an (immigrant) high school teacher, and after a few years, I can finally say that I formed an opinion: it looks like the core job of most admin is to complicate other people's work and make an otherwise awesome profession (teaching) as miserable and ineffective as possible. For some of the positions they hold, I wonder what they do all day, 8 hours, and for some others, I know what they do, and I would like them to stop doing it. On top of everything they are overpaid.

[@JohnDoe-et8th]

I'll tell you what they do. They justify their existence by wasting faculty time in meetings and memos about "redefining the college mission," the curriculum, and everything else every five years, never letting anything be done long enough to see if it works any better or worse. They waste time making busywork for "assessment," which has no scientific validity whatsoever and just provides cover to pretend the students are learning something, while pressuring faculty to make the classes more "fun" and to flunk fewer people who don't even bother to attend.

[@jek4837]

I've worked in the middle school (junior high) setting for about 14 years now as a school resource officer. I'm in a unique position where the administrators and teachers both trust me enough to be very open and honest in complaining about the other group knowing that their words wont be gossiped about. In my personal experience, the admins do WAAYY more than the teachers realize. I do agree on some things being made more complicated for the teachers, but (again, in my personal experience), a lot of that is being mandated by the school district. Now, I'm sure that there are some lazy admins out there who don't do a whole lot, but as someone who works hand in hand with my admins (on a ton of stuff that isn't related to my job), I see all the BS that they have to go through.

[@virioguidostipa5681]

I do not want to look down on anybody, but firstly school districts are part (the biggest and dumbest part) of the administration, second, it is not by serendipity if to this day countless tv shows and movies are produced about how empty and self-referential corporate America and its imitations (schools included, when run like "businesses") are or can become. The worst part of these guys is that they are not efficient businessmen like they like to be seen, but clumsy, arrogant, and often ignorant wannabees. Not always, of course, but over time, it does not seem to me to be changing for the better, frankly.

[@alisoninchausti1080]

The moment college education becomes but a business transaction, a consumer product, an ‘experience’ that gets sold, the focus goes onto pleasing the customers who, by business definition ‘are always right’ and who feel increasingly entitled to get whatever they may want. By contrast, and perhaps unexpectedly, in countries where higher education is free most people feel that going to college is both a right and a privilege you’re fortunate to have, and treat it as an opportunity to better themselves and not as a five year spring break.

[@bscar]

Those countries also have a bit of gate keeping for their "free" college, people have to be able to pass certain criteria to get in. As Bill pointed out in one of his rants a few years ago, some kids going to college today can barely read/write at their own grade level and need remedial classes to catch up to where they need to be before they can take the actual course classes. Those folks wouldn't be able to get into those universities in those other countries.

[@KH_FYM]

Actually for profit colleges give a very valuable and useful degree, because they don't get more students unless they provide results.

[@KH_FYM]

You make no sense. Are you saying that wealthy kids that really don't have to go to college treat college of the five-year spring break? I know I'm not that wealthy and my daughter graduated with a four-year degree from a state university and my son is currently going to a highly acclaimed for-profit college. Neither one of them are seeing it as a 5-year spring break. I think you're woefully disconnected and unless you actually paid for your kids to go to college, you need to probably sit down and STFU

[@alisoninchausti1080]

@@KH_FYM - You’re coming across as a little worked up and triggered in your assumptions about me, Karl. Perhaps my ‘not making sense’ simply means that you haven’t understood what I meant and it would do you a world of good to have seat and, to quote your colourful style, CTFD. It may not have crossed your mind that it’s also likely that your own particular experience with your two kids is not at all as representative of what I’m talking about, and you’re wasting everyone’s time feeling ‘offended’ and taking things somewhat personally. I’ve lived in half a dozen countries, have two grownup children who went to university in two different countries (one for which hefty student government loans are required to get a degree and the other altogether free of charge) and my opinion - nothing but that - comes from observation and my own experience. And it is my opinion that the moment education (or health services, for that matter) providing becomes nothing but a sellable product the parties enter a business transaction in which ‘results’ (customer satisfaction) must be delivered one way or another, often at the expense of real education as in the growing cases of grade lowering in order to pass students regardless of meritocracy, for the mere purpose of giving shareholders a return. That’s not to say say some paid colleges and universities don’t provide great education (before you proceed to jump your gun again) and lots of students excel in them, but the financial transaction side of it often leaves those institutions more at the mercy and direction of accountants and administrators than academics, as it ought to be. I find it astounding when I see videos of utterly clueless US college and university students (some of which go to hugely reputable institutions) being unable to answer the most basic general questions about, say, Geography, and it’s not the lack of specific knowledge that I find shocking but rather their blank-eyed absence of critical thinking. Trump and his offspring are a clear case in point of that. I’m sure they have fantastic-looking degrees and diplomas lining their walls. Again, drawing from the experience of the countries I’ve lived in, those young people I mentioned would not make it through university on their own merit.

[@alisoninchausti1080]

@@bscar They certainly have some gate-keeping! And those gates aren’t opened by a check or a donation.

[@brocktoon8]

LOVE Glenn Loury. Please have him back!

[@PolNqn]

On the other hand, maybe not invite this Daniel Bessner guy again... "capitalism bad... I don't have an alternative, but capitalism BAD!". So over these people...

[@paulvanier429]

College in United States are sold as a vacation on a resorts or a cruise; kids go there for "the experience" of being in college; When you look at any promotional video, they show all the amenities in order to justifie the price tag. Pursuing a degree from an American university is a lot of fun on a credit card.

[@kdavidson1386]

"These people," AKA the unnecessary admins are the reason that college tuition has exploded to heights that have priced everyone out. Make college affordable again and maybe we'd stop seeing these dramatic spikes in deaths of despair. Whats the point in getting a degree if it saddles you with so much debt you'll never get ahead. These things are apart of a much larger problem that has not only killed the American Dream, but skinned it and put it on display for every town to see.

[@EconAdviser]

Not so. They are hired to generate giving, grants, and big donors! The high state school tuitions resulted from Legislatures using higher-ed budgets as their piggy banks for bribing pro team billionaires to locate to the state (or not leave) and to award huge tax cuts to business and the rich. The result is ever higher tuition and "fees" and bigger classes taught by adjuncts who are paid slave wages.

[@scarpfish]

If you want to bring back the American dream, then we don't need to make college affordable. We need to make it optional again instead of a prerequisite for a career so the ATS software your poential employer decided to replace their HR department with doesn't kick your resume out.

[@petecartwright5211]

Well said!

[@dreamcoyote]

Nah. They are a symptom but they aren't the disease. If you got rid of them (and hey, that could happen sooner rather than later), the tuition would still be exorbitant. Why? Because colleges and universities are treated more like Wall Street opportunities than educational institutions. University football stadiums didn't get huge because they offset tuition. It's because the boards saw that it inflated the university's portfolio. Wall Street is like gasoline. It's really useful to do some things quickly and effectively. In other cases, like cooking, you don't want to use it because it ruins what you were making (universities, colleges, health insurance, etc). As the professor said, the real issue is treating higher education like a business (that's also an issue with the GOP push to voucher based public schools for kids).

[@somdutta7322]

exactly, because the highly qualified professors' pay hasn't gone up by much.

[@n3rdstrength]

Please have an entire episode dedicated to this topic.

[@pmwiky]

With the lack of critical/analytical/socioeconomic/ innovation skills being developed in American schools the American society as a whole is going to pay a really heavy price for the expensive miseducation that's been happening and continues to happen now.

[@bscar]

Math and science aren't as important as drag queens twerking and talking about the benefits of anal sex to 5 year old kids and that misgendering someone is a felony crime of the highest order

[@raymondreddington3572]

This is happening in the UK as well!!!!

[@elizabethsullivan5773]

There is a difference between being educated and being trained. Education can lead to a job or career but, sometime, not in a direct way.

[@RTSOB1]

There have always been anti-intellectuals, but in the 70's going forward, that sentiment has been granted a dominant position because of a variety of factors: search engines that are substitute teachers armed with algorithms rather than facts, an increasing belief that all opinions are on an equal footing, an alarming degree of justified belief that ignorance pays (look around you - it does), and many more reasons.

[@neilwiththereeldeel]

thing is though: those search engines ARE a substitute for learning...the only thing evaluators need to do is build a work force...they can do that from K-10 and two years of vocational...you don't NEED a university, thanks to the amount of info you have. Researchers of course do because the job IS the university, but most jobs, like even doctors/engineers DONT and that's a FACT. Whatever math they need to learn is simply for the job...they don't need upper level "foundational, theoretical knowledge" for that, since they never use it. That's a FACT...the fact that we still go to school in the traditional mode is the great existential crisis of our time, of the last fifty years...especially when the teachers are so morbidly ineffective, the culture of the West in the last 100 years (forget 50) has become so anti/pseudo-intellectual. Much of that has crept into EVEN THE HIGHEST INSTITUTIONS 🙄🙄. And the level of psychiatric counseling BS that takes place at all levels of school. Now this fucking woke bullshit 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[@ticenits1926]

@@neilwiththereeldeel search engines are not as substitute for anything, they are a tool. The problem is you get a lot of self-taught experts whose research on vaccinations or the economy consists of surfing for memes while sitting on the toilet. They go conclusion shopping looking only for information that supports their own biases rather than information that disputes it to make an informed decision.

[@clarkpalace]

@@ticenits1926 for sure an education is fine. Depends on the person. Takes some integrity to avoid stupid sh*t like searching out for opinions you like rather then reality

[@qwerwerterytrtyutyuiyuiouiop]

your command of language is non broh

[@lukeyznaga7627]

Dennis, your comment is way better than anything I heard on this video. You said it accurately.

[@stringX90]

So true. I went to undergrad 2008 - 2012 and it was crazy how "commercialized" the University and campus became during that time

[@cormacbowman6595]

What school?

[@Matthew10950]

I started in 2003 and you could see it happening. University of Ottawa, 25k students...7 conservatives.

[@stringX90]

@@cormacbowman6595 University of Nebraska at Omaha -- a state university

[@Tom-oz7iy]

@@Matthew10950 7 whole conservatives, does that show how you are wrong?

[@Matthew10950]

@Tom-oz7iy Depends on what you mean. Are you suggesting that few conservatives prove that conservatism is wrong?

[@oeckstei]

Use to work in a medical school and had interns to mentor who were pre med. I was refrained from taking them to a street medicine program in a dense homeless encampment because it was too dangerous, despite me going every other day. The students were paying $30k a year to take classes and push paper but not get any actual valuable experience that would inform them if the path they had chosen was the right one. Because they were the consumers and the customers essentially they were prohibited from taking any risks and meaningful work.

[@LionKimbro]

I want to see more Glenn Loury on Bill Maher! In fact, get both Glen Loury, and John McWhorter together!

[@BardWannabe]

Part of the role of these administrators relates to the growing expectation that universities will be economic drivers in their states. Many universities have entrepreneurial ecosystems to spin out startups. There is also a growing demand to do sponsored research for corporations.

[@melliott3681]

So its administrators (wealthy powerful mostly men) working with big corporations (wealthy powerful mostly men), who are working with state legislatures (wealthy powerful mostly men) to keep control of the state's wealth, resources, research, innovation, and mainly to say what business gets to prosper and what doesn't. So not only do they care less about the educational component of these institutions, they have seized control of the development of wealth for the state, and thus have seized control of the economic development of its citizenry. I'm not saying this is what is happening, but this is where my mind went when I read your post.

[@BardWannabe]

@@melliott3681 From what I’ve seen, it’s not about control as you’ve postulated, it’s mostly about wanting to see real economic growth in the state and to provide jobs in the state. Encouraging startups is risky and expensive, especially when they are run by grad students, but many argue it is a necessary step forward.

[@prism8289]

@@melliott3681 there is no lack of problems with colleges, many self made, but literally about every sentence you wrote is flat wrong and you have absolutely no concept.

[@prism8289]

25% of startups that have reached a value of a billion dollars were done by founders who came here as international students. It is an economic engine. Education itself is the primary catalyst for everything that follows.

[@melliott3681]

@@prism8289 I believe I ended with "I'm not saying this is what is happening, but this is where my mind went when I read your post." I was sharing an opinion. But, hey, thanks for telling me that I was wrong. That's always a beautiful word to hear.

[@robjohnson3095]

A lot of hospitals and other pretend non-profit organizations are like this too, and while they don't generate profit for traditional shareholders, the large bureaucracy profits greatly

[@michaelpuglisi1647]

I agree and have seen the rise in “ Bs” jobs myself my whole adult life. I have seen this for years in large retail companies that are “ too heavy”

[@rridderbusch518]

In Wisconsin my uncle (now ~85 years old,) got a free ride at U.W.-Madison, Wisconsin. That was offered to *all* farm kids who graduated from high school. He became an Engineer for 3M. No debt. Later, the Repugs took over the Univer$ity and city. Enough said?

[@plainbagel9192]

Currently doing an undergrad, I can say some A’s are generously given out for the sake of preventing a sh**t storm

[@squ1dTr1cksandclouds]

Yes! "The last tyranny in life...the workplace." There is so much truth to that!

[@liquidmagma]

No, there isn't. Working to contribute is NOT "tyranny". Only to children.

[@Cary94]

Same thing happening in Canada, mainly at the big ones (McGill, UBC, UA, UT). If everyone of those admins were qualified and helping with curriculum quality (depth, knowledge, thought-provoking, compelling), then we’d be one heck of a smart society.

[@petecartwright5211]

Wow...well done everyone! Great comments and thoughts.

[@aniket3724]

Administrators quaking in their boots rn.

[@nilocblue]

I have two undergrads and a master’s. I had professors who were incredibly politically correct and didn’t allow me to research or write what I wanted, but I had to follow party lines. Then, after graduation, I was overqualified for entry level positions, but lacked the experience for higher positions, so I was stuck with minimum wage jobs for a long time. So really what I got out of university was lost time, frustration, and lots of student loans.

[@audreyquinn73]

Same. And, it's debilitating to the other "lies" we fell for, namely that our degrees meant we would have an economic advantage when we bought our first house or wanted to start a family.😢

[@Katiemadonna3]

I had a similar experience.

[@MrBrock314]

@@audreyquinn73 Statistically, that's still true. It's just that it's becoming more common that there are exceptions.

[@prism8289]

Degrees in what?

[@Tom-oz7iy]

You didn't mention your majors so it is hard to know if you are just taking play-doh degrees or engineering degrees.

[@EconAdviser]

Absolutely true. As a professor at a 70,000+ university, I saw it happen over 40 years. Non-education related jobs replacing educators! Teaching is thus done by adjuncts and "lecturers" (non-employees and part-timers). Administrators (and all their staff) spend their time raising money for the Foundation and Grants! Tuition are only as LOW as they are because it's non-students who pay the real money. "Public" universities like U. of Texas have total "endowment" of $10B!!! And Harvard has $60B! Meanwhile, I was teaching classes of up to 1600 registered students, with only a handful actually attending in person, the remainder watching the class video streamed to their phones and laptops. The result: all multiple choice exams, no term papers or essay tests. Learning labs and testing centers replaced in-class exams and exam review sessions. Profs working from home and never in their office. Worst of all, few students select liberal arts majors that teach how to think and analyze; instead they major in thinly-disguised "cake" vo-tech majors like legal studies, hotel management, advertising and public relations, CSI forensics, and sports management (things they see in Netflix or Tik-tok) because daddy or Bill Maher order kids to study "something useful."

[@Bradgilliswhammyman]

well CSI forensics is a real field. Uses a lot of specialized techniques to gather evidence. The field moves so fast though most of the real training for it is OTJ.

[@mw4507]

i am an uber driver in a college town and noticed none of these college kids ever study and brag they get all A's and virtually do nothing. They use AI for term papers etc. They are obsessed with frat life. I can't imagine the wall they are going to hit when they actually have to get a real job.

[@melliott3681]

A lot of what you stated is completely on point. While I sense in your words some sadness, I mostly sense the disgust you feel having to look down from your lofty ivory tower being expected to work alongside what you consider the dregs of higher ed. So let me state that I equal you in the disgust I felt towards you as I read your words. I've been the lecturer, the instructor, and also a tenure-track associate professor. I worked equally hard no matter the title. I've also worked preparing and educating future professionals of what you most likely would view as a "thinly-disguised 'cake' vo-tech major" but in reality comprises the 4th largest industry in the world employing millions of professionals. It has been my experience that the 40+years tenured professors that are still "working" are some of the laziest, vilest, meanest has-beens (and let's not get into the hoarding) on today's campuses. They hate change of any kind, and with the resulting antiquation in their professional work, they have become condescending and contemptible to any faculty who has made strides to keep up with these changes, or any department that wants to make changes to keep up with the world. There are many, many things that have negatively impacted our once great institutions, and one of them are these elitist, tenured, self-appointed god-like professors who thinks the earth should rotate around their great intellect. They use their job as a means to establish their superiority over everyone else. I never knew the real meaning of discrimination until I worked in higher ed alongside the tenured professor.

[@nacholibre1465]

@@melliott3681 as a student I'd say you both highlighted the greater problem. What is the purpose? If it's to become educated Mark is right, if it's to get employed you're right. Most of us students want both but unfortunately get stuck with the worst of both of your points. I want to learn and hopefully things relevant to the workplace. That's why I picked Electrical Engineering (Computer Engineering minor) but my University only graduated 39 EE students last year, it's not enough to fund a school.

[@melliott3681]

@@nacholibre1465 What was the worst of my point that students got stuck with? You lost me on that one.

[@ChickVicious237]

I love that Glenn had David on his show this week, I was hoping to hear more from these guys. Was a great episode of the Glenn Show

[@YourBestFriendforToday]

Always great to see Glenn

[@AM-uc4yd]

the administration at University of the Pacific in Stockton CA is as described. The administration at my school has Eddie Sparks, a woman who was teaching her history students that gender doesn't exist. "Let's redefine what it means to be a man?". Colleges have lost focus on education and left students with high debt.

[@beardzgorski8397]

omg.. skip that class.

[@liquidmagma]

@@beardzgorski8397 boycott that class.

[@fareedezzedeen8017]

In many occasions when I talked to High Education management they were referring to the student as "Product" and the whole process is "Production Line", changing the student to a "Consumer" is a big shift in the whole process.

[@levyroth]

Yes, students should be the products of a good University. Some are better than others and their products reflect that. That's why there are only a handful of Ivy League schools in the world.

[@prism8289]

@@levyroth ivies don’t necessarily create the best “product.” Go to an Ivy and you sit in big lecture halls and never know the prof. All your contact is with graduate asst’s. Choose a high caliber small college, and all your contact is with profs that are every bit as good of teachers as an Ivy, quite possibly better. I used to say the prospect becomes the product and it is fair to say that. The reason? Prospects are looking at the success of the graduates in determining their choice. Thus, they are the product.

[@AL-op3ue]

wow Daniel Bessner on Bill Maher, glad to see it

[@mycdoc]

Well you must be a communist, then. Go live in a communist country like Venezuela, China, Russia, or North Korea. I'm sure you'll love it. USA is what it is because of capitalism. Leave if you don't like it.

[@SBGould]

As a former employee/contractor for the National Science Foundation and other Federal research funding agencies, I know that doing research funded by government, corporations and foundations has become a HUGE business for Stanford and an expanding proportion of public and private universities all over the country with a large bureaucracy to manage those activities separately from education of students. Grad students (mostly STEM Ph.D candidates) are counted as part-time employees who get compensation including benefit packages when they work on projects funded by this major source of university overall revenues. While I have not seen numbers, I would bet Stanford and other elite STEM universities get much more research funding than funding for providing education to students. I'm surprised the panelists seem to be totally unaware of how many university employees are associated with contract/grant research and not at all with student education.

[@phil5569]

OHHH! Glenn Lowry is on your episode?!?!? I can’t wait to watch the whole thing!

[@Marijuanifornia]

The problem with college is that the 1942 USDA film *Hemp for Victory* is still not being taught. It is a huge missing piece of the puzzle to figure out how everything went so wrong with America, and it's just sitting online at an official government website day after day. No one will play it on television, no one will explain it to the voting public, so everything just keeps getting worse.

[@nudgenudgewinkwink3212]

Yep same thing in the U.K, and Glenn loury is a legend.

[@vonBottorff]

Everybody is a consumer now. That's why social interactions are so toxic and unfulfilling these days, i.e., you aren't dealing with a fellow human, you're dealing with a picky customer -- who turns you into a salesman. It's where two people aren't mutually gracious and courteous, rather, they quickly jiu-jitsu around to get in the dominant customer position.

[@robertmadison1205]

Brilliant!

[@marionabbott7173]

I remember a multiple choice question on a final exam. None of the options was the correct answer. I asked to talk to the professor thinking he wasn't aware of the problem. He talked to me in the hall and his response was that none of the other students would notice. What a great college professor...ugh!

[@beardzgorski8397]

lol...tht is hilarious... so NOBODY flunked?

[@MrBrock314]

I mean if there was a none of the above, that wouldn't be so bad... :) But, as a fellow teacher, he might be right. Very rarely are errors like that caught by very many students. I would correct it still myself. :)

[@marionabbott7173]

@@MrBrock314 I guess I expected him to at least tell everyone that question wouldn't count since there was no correct option. That way, future teachers (it was a teachers college) wouldn't be confused about it. Oh well!

[@Tom-oz7iy]

Professors are lazy! Look at all the classes that are taught by the professors TA. It is a massive joke that professors are paid a salary for essentially doing nothing.

[@MarkusAxunIllianus]

"Consumers" is not exactly the right term for students, it is "customers". And the customer is always right. If your parents pay enough money, you realise that the universities are dependent on you being there and you can be the most insufferable little shit ever without there being consequences.

[@chillones9574]

but the colleges (at these prices) do need the customer I mean student.

[@lbauer51]

Consequences come immediately after graduation with the realization that all those years of adult day care have left them with massive debt and no saleable skills.

[@MarkusAxunIllianus]

@@lbauer51 I don't know about that. I surely hoped so, but a lot of these overcuddled cry-babies found homes in HR jobs around the world, telling people how they have to behave according to their uninformed, anti-capitalist, race- and sex-obsessed resentful vision of the world.

[@SacredCASHcow]

Consumerism is the problem. The colleges are supposed to produce functioning members of a democratic society and a society that also produces self sufficient workers and capitalists (in the good use of the word) . Instead it just gives people a branded badge (i.e. LOOK AT ME I WENT TO YALE) the same way people drive BMW to show off their wealth. The car could be getting worse year over year but the brand loyalty creates a false signal of education. So basically colleges are becoming increasingly less of a value proposition due to deteriorating quality because consumers over value the badge or the brand. This creates a domino effect whereby the colleges don't try as hard to educate and just put all the effort into corporate politics because they don't have to try.

[@zachjones6944]

Don't pay for your children's tuition. Children can get a scholarship, or attend a military academy.

[@themanwnoname3454]

Almost all education is what you make of it- the value of a REAL teacher cannot be overstated 🥂

[@theotherway1639]

The book "Bad Biz: Your Guide to Starting a For-Profit College" is a good read about the education industry.

[@BrattyBetty]

Q: How do you get an Art major off your front porch ? A: Pay him for the pizza

[@tcgreen11]

😂

[@Matthew10950]

How can you tell if someone is an Art Major? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

[@goblue193]

They work at your local coffee shop

[@Nogoingback424]

OMG!

[@Wittgensteinien]

That's right.

[@alarin612]

I would say, it's okay to run a college like a business serving the student as the consumer, so long as what the consumer wants is education. The problem is something he mentioned pretty quickly - what the consumer wants is the "college experience." The other issue is, even if the consumer wants education, the time between getting it and knowing whether it was a quality product is pretty long.

[@JohnDoe-et8th]

How many 18-year-olds do you know who have the faintest concept of what a college education is, or should be? And even if they know it, they'd rather party. I could have retired early on students who said, "I've heard your classes are great but they're hard and I want an easy semester/I need to take six courses this term to graduate."

[@liquidmagma]

@@JohnDoe-et8th Then 18 year olds have no business attending a university.

[@JohnDoe-et8th]

@@liquidmagma Bingo. Most 18-year-olds SHOULDN't. Only the nerds with a real academic bent. The rest should get vocational training. If they mature later in life, they might be ready for the humanities, but they haven't the life experience to appreciate them.

[@gregdubya1993]

I am a CRM administrator at a public university. It's staggering how wasteful the university is.

[@marccano5061]

Well said

[@devindevon]

How can I get one of those bullshit jobs where I don't have to do anything? Sounds great and I'd be really good at it.

[@tele68]

You have to be able to talk a lot without really saying anything. You can gain those skills in most senior-level seminars.

[@jimmym3352]

Yeah I want one. I worked hard all my life. Now at 50, I kind of want to take it easy for the last 10 years before I retire (I'm aiming to retire at 60). I don't want to wreck my body in these last 10 years, and my job does sometimes require moving heavy equipment. Praying my back holds out.

[@levyroth]

If you have to ask you're not smart enough to hold one of those jobs.

[@qwerwerterytrtyutyuiyuiouiop]

how can i masturbate in pubic where no one sees me? id great really be good at bullshit im a dubmass

[@nickthompson1812]

@@levyroth is this ironic? Those who do nothing must be very smart to hold those jobs where they do nothing??

[@firstlast9292]

What the hell are these people talking about? Go to any university website and look at the financial statement. These are not private companies. They are virtually all non-profits with extremely open book keeping. The thousands of employees are grounds keepers, HVAC, elevators, IT, nurses, counselors both academic and medical, technicians that assist all the scientific experiments, and on and on and on.

[@Antonio-yg7io]

Thank you!

[@Judith1774]

In America, we need to emphasize the importance of learning.

[@briannac3211]

I love and appreciate their honesty

[@joshuabauman3209]

"Chained to the last tyranny of life, the workplace," - Daniel Bessner Hit the nail on the head. Hierarchies change, and the people still toil from cradle to grave.

[@marcusmcewen9654]

I graduated college in 1978. Size, drugs and rock n roll were a way of life.

[@nerdly44]

I could listen to these two for a while. They articulate themselves very well.

[@ardstrum]

I'm surprised neither of the two guests mentioned that the number of researchers on the payroll will account for a large number of those positions at universities. Let's not forget that many universities are not only learning institutions. They also perform considerable amounts of research utilizing the university assets. Since many of these researchers are younger, they benefit through the support from faculty and staff. This is quite common, even in state public universities where the university is central to the state's research on topics and issues relating directly to the state.

[@Antonio-yg7io]

The grants brought in by the researchers typically make up a huge net monetary benefit for the university. In other words, it more than makes up for the researchers salaries

[@bunnybgood411]

blah blah blah whatever. The apologist has shown up.

[@Antonio-yg7io]

@@bunnybgood411 what do you think the motivation of hiring researchers is?

[@macha3191]

@@Antonio-yg7io Yeah, universities generally take a huge chunk of any grants that are secured (~half).

[@Antonio-yg7io]

@@macha3191 at least whatever portion is used to pay salaries. Equipment gets a little less taxed

[@kellysantiago6871]

Public K-12 school educators have been saying their schools are running like businesses as well. Our board members are rarely current or former educators, but the number of business people elected continues to grow. Interestingly, this shift correlates with falling test scores. It's my belief that the people in the classroom have better ideas of what schools need than people in boardrooms.

[@liquidmagma]

k-12 teachers have ruined it for themselves with constant push on social issues. Get back to teaching basic education and the system will self correct.

[@frankbooth5490]

three great guests this show!

[@coreywall1977]

That was some new and interesting thoughts

[@JohnDoe-et8th]

I wish people could see the horror show that has taken over universities. I got out after 30 years of teaching precisely because my school had become a consumer-satisfaction factory, in which the excessive administrators had no idea about what the subject matter being taught was and couldn't tell difficult, quality courses from entertainment (and guess what the students prefer). I call it providing the appearance of education. The humanities especially don't have the rigor of knowledge my high-school lit, history, and art courses had, but oh boy, do they have plenty of indoctrination teaching the students that they are all victims. There is a good deal of schadenfreude in seeing the consumers turn on the turncoat professors who went along with the popular identity-politics gig.

[@davidwebster9788]

To many things are now run as businesses. For example hospitals.

[@nickthompson1812]

Another good example is the country. Trump gave tax cuts in which 83% of the benefit went to the top 1% of income earners. He thought that would bolster the economy and stock market. Well, 2 years later and we can all see that that FAILED and that businesses have made record profit instead of passing the savings onto Americans. Cal-Maine, largest egg producer in USA experienced +700% PROFITS in Q1 2023.

[@ExceptBacon]

It’s in the blue collar fields too. 5+ sets of hands to write emails, carry clipboards and watch from a distance, for every set holding a wrench.

[@anitahunter1158]

My goodness! Shocking!

[@SuburbanSavage]

I've worked in insurance for 20+ years. I'm licensed in dozens of states and keep up to date with continuing education. Despite this, I have never made more than $10 an hour, because I don't have a college degree. I can't tell you how many times that I've had to train some recent disinterested college graduate who got the job because their dad is golf buddies with a higher up in the company. It’s infuriating to have to train a 22 year old with a degree in interpretive jazz dance (true story!) on how to manage insurance policies and finance accounts, all the while knowing they were making a six figure income and allowed to take a 2 hour lunch, while I had to beg to leave 5 minutes early to take my kid to a doctor's appointment, let alone be allowed to eat. Hell, most companies monitor how long you take going to the restroom. One manager actually told me to leave my kid at a fire station because he was affecting the company's bottom line. He had 6 kids. According to my state's department of labor, he was well within his rights to demand that I give up custody of my child because it was unfair of me to deprive him of making more money. These companies want to hire ANY college graduate because they use that to lure more investors, knowing that most of them have no relevant knowledge towards the industry. One of the more popular insurance companies in my state openly boasts about not hiring licensed insurance reps because they will comply to state laws over what a company wants to do. They want them trained in their methods, as opposed to the state's laws. I interviewed there and they were throwing scenarios at my and it was concerning to have to explain legal ramifications to a Chief Compliance Officer, who had never heard of these rules. Turned out that she had a degree in Medieval French literature, and got the job because her mom was on the company's board.

[@justinhicks6816]

what a sorry state of affairs this country and world are in with this crap going on everywhere

[@auntbeatrice6911]

If this is for real, I am really sorry.

[@chichim2020]

So study for a college degree then?

[@blahblahmeowchow6383]

Sorry, but if you're this articulate, motivated and trained, there's no way you couldn't be making more than 10 an hour doing SOMEthing after 20 years of experience. It doesn't add up.

[@glennwatson3313]

Nice story but none of that actually happened.

[@BrattyBetty]

Reporter Dan Berrett writes that in 1967, California’s higher educational system was the envy of the world. But, earlier that year, newly-elected California Gov. Ronald Reagan, who won on a platform of cutting taxes and reducing state spending, told universities that there would be some “intellectual luxuries” that they would have to do without. At a press conference in Sacramento on Feb. 28, 1967, Reagan told a crowd that the taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing intellectual curiosity. He told colleges to shift their focus by teaching workforce entry skills. It was a view 180 degrees opposed to the idea that college is a place for intellectual development and took a longer-term view about which skills are actually useful. It was on that day in late February, more than 48 years ago, that the purpose of higher education changed forever, Berrett said. Reagan had come to power largely by using higher education as a foil. “This is after the campus protests in the ‘60s where (Reagan) really took the protesters to task as 'filthy speech advocates' - which is Reagan’s term. So, he was used to casting higher education as something of an opponent,” Berrett said. - NPR

[@KP99]

LOL yes, because it's Reagan's policies that dominate present day California and it's university system 😂

[@goodtalker]

Much of the same can be said for "Big Business." I recently retired, got bored, and then went to work at a major retailer in Southern California. The farther away from where the "rubber meets the road," the more often you will find people doing nothing--and I mean NADA!

[@user-wg2mu5qh8l]

Amen!

[@bbbartolo]

Understandable that administrative bloat wasn't comprehensively discussed in four minutes, but it should be mentioned that it tends to feed on itself in ways for which the new college business model can't be blamed. Administrators demand assistants of all kinds, since it secures their existence and (especially) prestige, even though the work to be done doesn't at all justify it. Also, administrators are comfortable with other administrators, rather than those pesky professors. There's a book on the phenomenon...

[@thomasweibull4105]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law

[@yessopie]

I don't think any of this applies for STEM. It's hard to imagine any full time math student having time to sleep 7 nights a week, much less do drugs and have sex.

[@Bradgilliswhammyman]

Uh...you would be surprised. Do you really think they spend all their non class time studying ?

[@darylallen2485]

STEM majors are a minority of students. That said, I agree with you. I've heard it said that the first 2 years of a STEM degree are basically weed out classes. They are arbitrarily difficult to weed out people who have alternative priorities. Usually the 3rd and 4th year are where you get to do the fun projects.

[@paulvanier429]

Most STEM students as well as social studies students are part of what I would call the academia recycled machine; most of them will go back to school to teach or write research paper; they are not producing any tangible for society in general. My ex wife was a Math teacher in a Private college and my father in Law is a very well knonw Japanese sociologist; both are not producing anything tangible except futur teachers and researchers.

[@SeattlePioneer]

Thirty years ago, I recall a 3rd quarter Calculus instructor lecturing the class severely, saying he wanted to see an honest hour of math study for every hour of class time. At the time, I was spending THREE hours of time studying for every hour of class time. I took 3rd quarter calc twice, but never completed it. Decades later, I encountered an engineering student who told me he had taken that class THREE TIMES before completing it!

[@yessopie]

@@paulvanier429 Math research provides no tangible benefits to society at all... until suddenly it has a huge impact that changes things forever. If you've ever done secure banking online, taken a picture with your phone, used a GPS, had an MRI, etc... you can thank a mathematician, as these things can be directly traced back to math research.

[@Tommy1977777]

The price of a university education rising does not equate with a commensurate rise in the quality of that education.

[@brucemcgraw2265]

I've had that discussion with an administrator right before I graduated

[@spartacusforlife1508]

There was a time you respected students who went to university. They were our future and would be our movers and shakers. Yes their politics were usually at odds with the political elites sometimes for good reasons but generally they would adopt the norms once they entered the workforce. The difference now is a section are not only at odds with the elites they are at odds with the wider public and the majority of the student population. Once they leave uni they get jobs run by people who believe what they believe problem being those jobs are in media, films, t.v. were they have influence on the younger generation

[@levyroth]

I also agree that only elites should go to University. College is not for everyone and education should never have been turned into a commodity.

[@raymondreddington3572]

💯

[@davidhutchinson5233]

Just grateful I went to school in the late 80s and early 90s. I only took out 1 5k student loan. That was it. It's changed so much from that time. From my understanding the collegiate school year is askew as well. We didn't have classes until after Labor day and were DONE by early December. The 10th or 12th at the very latest. Same went for spring. We started in February, ended in May, early May. And if you wanted to really take advantage which I did more than once....you could pick up 3 credits in a Jan term. 4 days of 3 hour classes each week. But it was worth it in the end. And it was super affordable. About $100 a credit.

[@andrewthomas695]

America's current youth thank your generation for screwing them over. For the love of money, America has sold out its children. This is America.

[@qwerwerterytrtyutyuiyuiouiop]

jess gratefel im wen to dah skoo, in da lay eighties and also da 90s. ima 5k loan maestro. That was legit. Itz changing dog. Muh understand, da collegiatoligical year is ASKEW as, well... We do not have da klasses til da day o duh LAYBOR 'n were DONE by early DESEMBER. Duh 10 'o duh 12 'o duh 14 'o duh 16 'o whatevs same went for duh SPRANG we are starting in February, ended in May, early May. n if you really wanted to fuck with the advantage, which I did (more than once!)... you could pick up 3 fuckin' creditz in Japan each term. 4 days 3 nites of bloodsugarsexmajick!, each week boss. But it was worth in the fuckin' end. Cuz I'm a fucking retard. It was affordable, more or less. About $100 a credit signed Dave H dildomaestro.

[@hamburgerdan101]

Excellent last point

[@simonhadley8829]

Bill is almost channeling John C McGinley's character in Office Space. "What would you say...ya DO here?"

[@nongthip]

There's a shitstorm coming as colleges and universities become either privileged expensive resorts (to take drugs get drunk and have sex) or under-funded "jails" where you show up for class and get a release paper (diploma) after four years, and then faced with years of student loan payback. AND... even worse, many of the jobs they will need to pay back all that money will slowly but surely get replaced by AI robots. Even the "jobs" of college admins will be similarly replaced by some ChatGPT computer. In short - The human race is in very real danger of brains and genuine cognitive ability being replaced by machines to the point where more and more people are reduced to lazy slugs. But of course the 1-2% richest self-entitled masters will profit from it. The disperity gap between haves and have-nots will become apocalyptic if we don't take back control for the greater good of humanity *very soon*.

[@geretstarseeker453]

We can't take back control because we first need to work out what a "woman" is and then decide how to properly repay all persons of colour for historical wrongs.

[@maknavickas]

I love the times when I am unemployed and not required to do anything, its how we are supposed to live just spending some time to keep yourself in good( cooking, gym, and hygiene) and then spead the rest doing whatever comes to mind. I would rather not work or work less like 20 hours a week and have my needs met, than work way more for my whole life and be able to own more bullshit. In my mind please automate shit as fast as possible and lets just have like a rotating wheel of chores that the citizens need to conributure their labor towards to keep the wheels of society churning and lets just relax the rest of the time.

[@neilwiththereeldeel]

And the sad thing is: NO ONE is doing drugs or having sex 😂😂...we are the most "coddled" generation in a long time. No one does that shit...and you don't need college for it either...

[@andrewthomas695]

What's happening in American colleges and universities is merely a reflection of the inevitable consequence neoliberal economics introduced by Reagan (i.e. privatization, deregulation, and the reliance on a mythical market place). Once considered investments in your country's future, your colleges and universities are little more than pseudo-corporations selling themselves out like prostitutes on street comers, to attract customers (once called students), and then charge them exorbitant fees to make profits. In doing so, America commodifies its education system and its children, degrading both. This is America. Can I get a gun?

[@jimmym3352]

Enrollment is already dropping. I hope Uni's will act like a real business and learn to cut costs by pruning these excessive jobs like every other business does.

[@jamesfarrington9030]

Thats why college is so damn expensive.

[@qwerwerterytrtyutyuiyuiouiop]

yes agreed thats y

[@paulroberts729]

Bill is seeing the light. Welcome aboard.

[@kap4020]

i once ran the numbers when I was teaching at a semi-public university in the Northeast as an adjunct. they paid me $2300 for the semester, with a class of almost 30 students (intro to computer science). not per month, but for the entire semester. i figured each student was paying about $1000 for the 4-credit class, for a total of almost $30k. so they were paying us less than 10% of the revenue for the class, and the students still have to pay extra for textbooks. granted, this was a few years ago, so factor in inflation, but I doubt that percentage has changed much.

[@melliott3681]

First there is a good book that detailed this evolution into a business model titled "The Toxic University: Zombie Leadership, Academic Rock Stars, and Neoliberal Ideology." One issue I believe that started this process was tenure. Much like unions, leadership didn't like not having control over the job secured section of the university. How do you change this? You seize control of faculty lines as they come vacant, replace with non-tenured and adjunct (who have no voice or say), and roll those positions into more administrative positions where you develop a large section of BS jobs that have the numbers (when needed) to steer the institution into whatever direction it wants. This direction was into exorbitant tuition, mindless lists of fees and costs, powerhouse athletics, and bells and whistles that turned institutions that were once beacons of learning into an amusement park for young people to "have an experience." It's capitalism people. It's the Walmartization of higher education. This has been done in so many spheres and areas within the US, why are we so bumfuzzled at seeing it come into higher ed? Capitalism took over healthcare, religion, the space program, its everywhere. This is what happens in a consumeristic economy. It all boils down to the ideology that anything and anyone can be monetized for consumption and profit.

[@jimpalmer792]

" ..... Capitalism took over healthcare, religion, the space program, its everywhere. This is what happens in a consumeristic economy. It all boils down to the ideology that anything and anyone can be monetized for consumption and profit." Well, 'you are not wrong'. However, I'd make one 'modification' -- what you are referring to is what I call 'Unfettered Capitalism', Capitalism's cancerous, malignant 'twin'. [not that Capitalism is all that it's cracked up to be either, but I digress]. 'Unfettered Capitalism' is the #1 cause of America's current 'implosion'. Sad.

[@audreyquinn73]

Excellent comment. ❤

[@oliviastratton2169]

If capitalism is to blame, then why are public universities equally affected?

[@melliott3681]

@@oliviastratton2169 Because most colleges and universities are being run like for-profit corporations by their boards who work for corporations. One example is the first land grant institution in Texas, Texas A & M. The board of regents is a who's who executives for gas & oil companies, and banks. Check most public universities and their boards will be the executives of the top industries in that state. They run huge endowments, but for what I have no idea. The university I work for has a $679 million endowment, yet the building I work in is dilapidated and falling apart, and we are told "there is no money." Someone is profiting off of these institutions, but it's at the expense of student debt, and the money is not going back to the academic units.

[@adamevans998]

@@melliott3681 It's not Capitalism that you write of. It's actually a form of socialism. The government involvement in education has helped cause a lot of this. We must acknowledge that we do not live in a pure Capitalist country as we do not have a truly free market. There is a lot, too much frankly, government interference in the economy and market place. There is also too much government involvement in both educational policy and educational financial matters. Government student loans are but one example of this at the college/university level. While universities may be run like for-profit corporations, that's not a bad thing IF education of the students was the primary objective. A true education that held students accountable AND prepared them to be productive members of society.

[@ikebanaJc]

Kinda surprised that high college tuition conversation didn’t come up.

[@br2266]

It’s what when colleges get so many donations for deserving people, the greedy owners hire their friends to “manage the money” and they make up jobs that do nothing, and then those friends hire more friends and before you know it there’s more administrators than college students, not because anything has to be managed but because well meaning people donated so much money to this school, that the school misappropriates it all by hiring friends to give the money to.

[@TheVonMatrices]

The reduction in tenured professors is always put in a negative light, but I think that's because the people who speak about it the most are the professors who do want tenure. The reason for the increase in non-tenured professors is due to universities realizing that there is no need to have post-doctorate professors who are tenured and actively performing research to teach an undergraduate level course. I think that's a very reasonable point, and I do not believe that "the college experience" of undergraduate students suffers because of it. Furthermore, I have struggled to see why it is assumed that good researchers make good teachers. When I went to college 15 years ago, the vast majority of the tenured professors I met would much rather be doing research than teaching students, and they would gladly pass off their teaching duties to their grad students when they could. It's only the graduate level courses that should be required to be taught by tenured professors who perform research, and that represents only a fraction of the students enrolled at the universities.

[@Wali1977]

Tenure ensures freedom. It ensures that academics can teach and research to the best of their knowledge, without fear of censorship by the government, the trustees, the administrators, or the students and their parents.

[@AlisonCrockett]

That may well be true, but in order to get even an adjunct you must be masters doctorate level to be considered to teach. So those adjuncts put themselves into heavy debt to make poverty wages.

[@Wali1977]

@@AlisonCrockett I agree that adjuncts are heavily and shamefully exploited, but that's a separate issue. It doesn't address the point I made, which is that tenure is essential to ensuring academic freedom.

[@swd127]

I teach at a research university and it's even worse than that. The numbers of administrators that are doing real actual work handling student matters and academic support in departments are being reduced as "cost saving measures", while those that provide extracurricular experience is skyrocketing. The number of deans is also increasing every year.

[@truegrit7697]

OMG - you should do a documentary on this topic!

[@qwkimball]

Stanford is a research university. Over half of those numbers Bill quoted are engaged in grant-based research projects.

[@tommccormack6341]

No, professors write grants, not all these superfluous administrators with their education degrees that have skyrocketed in number.

[@thechrismatos]

Its not just the economics of the colleges, its the disconnected reality of college from the actual human experience that helps contribute to this. College should be a place of free thought and growth, but it has instead turned into a paid 'EXPERIENCE' rather than a place of growth. The colleges then cater to the paid experience, and pander to the loudest voices in the room, whether they are extreme or not, and this fails the students on multiple levels. The blatant lack of actual education is displayed in how disconnected the graduates are from the average American.

[@tylercunningham4311]

College felt like a big waste of time to me. Couldn't wait to get out and get a job.

[@Jo-ds3xv]

Research-based universities get revenue based on the research they generate so they focus on supporting that primarily while students are just an after thought. It’s beyond frustrating paying thousands of $$$ only to get a prof who is excellent at research but doesn’t care about/ want to teach.

[@ISpitHotFiyaa]

I don't think it's quite as bad as they're making it out to be but you have to recognize that the primary mission at most top universities (with the exception of liberal arts colleges) is research. So a lot of these administrators have nothing to do with education. They run labs, apply for grants, and do other things to support the research arm. And that's also what your professors spend most of their time doing. Also if the university has a hospital then they're going to employ all the same people that any other hospital employs.

[@SuperPowderpig]

Student debt pays these administrators salaries. Many degrees are worthless unless they lead to employment and paychecks.

[@qwerwerterytrtyutyuiyuiouiop]

Inddeed, may emp;loymet be paywcheaks useless wothlress broh

[@ryandecurtis6236]

My brothers wife works for Yale and is not a professor. I’ve never been given a straight answer on what she actually does.