The Problems With Infinite Skill Expression

[@elfyar5786]

my favorite skill as a toplaner is press tab look at my items and sums then look at enemy items think for 1 second and the press ghost and statcheck them

[@vukvla2046]

olaf enjoyer

[@KigerrMobile]

@@elfyar5786 2000 year champions don't need ghost 🏆

[@srir.5282]

darius bro

[@einjharrelraca]

@@srir.5282 every juggernaut*

[@fitmotheyap]

Or get statchecked, thinking is optional(I don't think)

[@KigerrMobile]

"junglers can't do math"

[@samkenny1105]

thats why they jg

[@jin6503]

jugnler main here, obviously doing the frog is much worth than ganking my botlane under tower with the enemy below half hp

[@boibetterknow4768]

@@jin6503 you could tell me its a guaranteed double and I'd still probably choose frog cause I don't have to walk

[@pandanym3065]

@@boibetterknow4768 also you can't die vs the frog and you're guaranteed to be back on your camps on spawn

[@christatum3045]

They do the most math

[@emilemil1]

I've always found it a bit strange that DotA 2 kept denying. Denying was just a part of the WC3 engine, it was never a DotA-specific mechanic and back when I played a lot of that map I never considered it a core part of the game, in fact it was one of the mechanics I liked the least, not because I didn't appreciate the skill expression but because killing my allies bothered me as a kid. I thought for sure that DotA 2 would get rid of it, but nope, and it even kept other WC3 engine quirks such as turn rate and the hero attributes. And I'm really surprised that Valve kept denying for Deadlock. That's really a huge gamble, it definitely sets the game apart and can serve to build a dedicated audience who love that mechanic, but I would wager that the average gamer would prefer to shoot more at the opponents.

[@SamSGLM]

I believe for deadlock part of the income is linked to the orbs because it allows characters that don't have big shoes to still thrive than it being a league type prior system where you shove and forget and go roam and be at objectives 1st. So you can still do that but there's a trade off in the mid game but early specially so people are more grounded to their lanes (which is quite a big issue, they keep adjusting and nerfing AOE and split souls, even had a early game range rule but they made the map bigger to counter this shove and move type play in the early waves) While getting denied is a negative feedback and can feel frustrating when you're outclassed, I think the majority of the feedback is that it feels fun to shoot orbs like a fun minigame. Some things were archaic and have been updated because their restrictions don't make sense anymore, but most are still in with some exceptions ( like attack speed and move speed cap) It's design decisions, while learning league I loved the talents and getting small increments as I go, and making my own build can be because I value this more and even if there are cookie cutter best (which is funny because if it was today thru would be bad, everyone was bad relative to today) there are always some room for personal preference as the talent didn't give to much and you could sacc like a few % of spell life steal so your jungle buffs lasted longer and could still use for some cheese. But the more I played an specially because the rune system I thought they would get away from that because why would there be any pre game power that was gated to your playtime or money, match ups flipped on their head and stats and varience is through the roof with so many knobs and levers that could give what ever stat and my GP or Darius has crit level 1 or solve character design flaws with the runes. I had come from wow and I didn't like that my skill did t matter if they just super over gear me. I could beat better geared players if they were bad but to a point right. So the talents had a lot less power and we're wow like that I enjoyed but still and the runes even more having gated number of pages and runes felt so bad. I thought the tease of runes and talents was re over them all together. But you still get to choose HP damage or some third on top of the fun talent stuff. which got to the point where they dictate and solve character flaws, would hate to have hex flash removed, that's fun, but making Akali an unmovable character because second wind fleet dorans revitalize or bone plating is extremely stupid, she's Akali not Vlad or Mundo or Zac or timber or Necro or every drain tank in smite. Having the profile of an mobile ninja assassin doesn't match her lane sturdiness.

[@ChilledoutDevil]

for deadlock, i kind of resonate it to the micro skill of last hitting in league, otherwise killing creeps is just down to brainless shooting of them for monies it is like an aim-trainer minigame too, it is quite well done

[@eebbaa5560]

denying is more fun in deadlock and it makes far more intuitive sense than literally killing your own troops like in dota 2. i think it makes the game unique without feeling contrived and it makes sense even from a new player's perspective. just steal the other guy's money, except without the intermediary step that dota has.

[@SamSGLM]

It's very much a case of it's part of the game, and that was also why it was kept in.

[@HenaK9]

Icefrog deved both the mod and dota2, ofcourse he wanted to replicate the original to his best istead of making a trainwreck that is league.

[@CaseyATong]

People not using items is not a reflection that they don’t want to is that they aren’t mindful to try to use items that have actives, when you’re talking about a form of skill expression, but I would agree people want skill expression in their character, not to prioritize in items

[@cap-ml7ky]

But imo i think league should have skill expression in items. Buying an item to counter something, is how you prevent overloaded 200 years champs. It takes away power from the champions and gives it to items, allowing the game to be more well rounded. It allows the champion to be more malleable and versatile, so you dont feel hopeless in certain match up or situation, without making the champ overloaded. Im not saying to make it like dota, but just enough where it allows me to work around certain mechanics, like getting poked by a marksman in top lane.

[@Siegram999]

@@cap-ml7ky imo I understand why people dont want skill expression in items in league but I wish that support was the exception to this rule considering they dont have to cs. ik many more casual players will hate this take but giving supports more active tools for skill expression and real things to do other than place wards and pockets carries would be much healthier for the game because right now it is very apparent how much worse your average support is compared to everyone else in the game.(and i feel this is mainly due to their lack of real interaction in the game)

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

@@Siegram999 This 100%. Since people have been talking about Dota here, Dota2 supports have to do SOOO much just to be DECENT, that if you have an "average" support in both games the difference is like night and day.

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

Honestly, that could be partially Riots fault for not teaching the game well enough. Having a tutorial section solely about items, their passives and actives would do WONDERS. A lot of casuals and low elo players just buy the recommended every game, and thats fine if Riot didnt really care that the casuals arent trying to be optimal... but they DO care. So instead of having less actives because the casuals dont use them, why dont try and teach or give them some motivation to use said actives?

[@aschneider8912]

​@@GojiradogzillagodzillaConsider: thematically and aesthetically, League doesn't want you to care about its items, it wants you to care about the champions. That's why Ashe is called Ashe, and not just Frost Archer like she would be in Dota. It's also why Aatrox is the ultimate yap master, and why ultimately mythic items were doomed to fail right out the gate. And this reflects in the player base too: people really care about their mains. More so in roles where the characters are really diverse like top and support, less so in ADC, where the champs are pretty similar all things considered. It's also why the item system was nerfed across the board again. Most players want to play *Champions*, not item delivery systems, which is what the game felt like when Mythics were a thing. I do think there is room for more active items in the game, at the very least every class should get one or two(fighters have 0 atm lol), but past active items were also just too powerful and warped the character around themselves a lot of the time, which again isn't what League wants to be

[@TehNoobiness]

Something that I really wish more people understood is that raising the skill floor does not, in fact, raise the skill ceiling. Players regularly complain about quality-of-life features, because for some reason, they think that making players memorize a bunch of shit makes the game more skill-expressive. As a rule of thumb, if a decision can be boiled down to "There is one right way to do it, and if you don't know the right way, you lose", it's not a skill ceiling decision, it's a skill floor decision. Of course, not everything can be simplified to such a degree, and there's still ways for "there is one right way to do this" to be useful from a design standpoint, but the point here is that people attribute "skill expression" to things that are basically just gatekeeping.

[@thetheory6159]

Having a high skill floor to something isn't inherently bad -- some people enjoy tasks that are very difficult to get into, because being able to do it at all is valorizing to them. The thing is, there's a place to do that in league (specific champions). Putting it into the baseline game makes the game itself less accessible -- which, if that's what you want to do, is fine. Lots of good games have a decently high skill floor, but league's goal is being able to appeal to as many people as possible.

[@atsukana1704]

Everyone complaining about the jungle path changes, and the recommended items is a perfect example of this. New players can’t come to league because there isn’t even a tutorial in game for an entire role. You are just supposed to know and if not everyone hates you. The only resource being random youtube videos to someone new.

[@TehNoobiness]

The most frustrating thing about it, to me, is that raising the skill floor is in many ways _anticompetitive._ It makes it harder for players to engage with the game on a competitive level. Like atsukana said, if jungle pathing is a thing you're just expected to _know_ and you get punished for not memorizing it, that does nothing for the skill expression of jungling while locking a lot of people out of playing the role. (Note that the _actual_ skill expression in pathing--using your abilities efficiently to clear--only starts AFTER you learn the right clear path for your lvl1 clear.)

[@RiptidexRiltreks]

lmao, august throwing shade always funny

[@shutupMaji]

Imagine toplane matchups in league if you were allowed to deny minions, playing vs the likes of GP and Irelia

[@vroomzoom4206]

Denying just makes snowballing worse

[@kf532]

Denying without dota minion aggro and other checks just sounds like a disaster tbh

[@desuvult8463]

@@kf532whats different about dota minion aggro

[@peterkirk8510]

Not necessarily a good thing Champions like darius become downright oppressive because you literally cannot break their freeze. Game becomes infinitely more snowbally. Dota uses pulling and neutral camps to make permafreezing (which is so beyond trivial to do) not a very good idea, or at least gives you a method to combat it. You can either pull your wave to deny your own minions and earn jungle xp + generally pull wavestate towards you, jungle yourself, or gank elsewhere since getting across the map is way easier

[@stickystevie9047]

2:51 when I have to lane into reworked asol (It's so fucking obnoxiously designed)

[@thetheory6159]

People think skill based game means more skill = more good, and therefore all the game should be skill. But it's a game. The point of the product is to be enjoyable enough that people buy into it. If you make the game ENTIRELY about the skill, you lose fun. You lose fun, you lose people, you lose money.

[@ralphinoful]

I had this issue with Wow mythic raiding. An absolutely massive skill check in the game, as much as people won't acknowledge this, is working around obstructed vision or cluttered vision. That there might literally be a strategy for a boss, where you bring them to the edge of the map, and your field of view gets really wonky, zooming in and out randomly or caught on edges. And it's difficult and a genuine form of skill expression, where rotating your camera in such a way to deal with this, is something you need to be good at. Or that multiple mechanics might be going out, where there's 3 different colored blobs on the ground that you need your team to stand in. But all 3 colors are very similar, and difficult to distinguish from each other, or it might blend in with the ground below, or the blobs might have swirly non-clear edges, so you can't really tell what constitutes being "in" vs "out". These are testing your skill. But in my view, some of the worst examples of arbitrary skill expression. No one brags to their guild, "I'm really good at moving my camera" or "I'm really good at telling similar colors apart". No one cares that you're good at it, even if it's genuinely an incredibly important skill in the game.

[@JapaneseMessiah]

With tft, the team seems to actively be getting rid of APM checks. Think Fast is gone, zephyr and shroud are artifacts.

[@Nah.IdAdapt]

Hey August, love your effort and appreciate all what you do for league of legends. I wanna take the chance to give you a request here, dont you think sylas should be pushed more to the jungle? I believe that a champion who s gimick is to steal any ultimate on the map, should be a jungler xho can actually path anywhere in the map, which would give him more room to express skill and decision making, also his abilities are low cooldown and high damage oriented, which is more fun and satusfying as a jungler contrary to midlane where you are just hiding behind minion for 3 levels and then looking to trade in one rotations after that which is not very satistying until you can fight at level 7 or 8. Thanks

[@XionTheSylveon]

The juggling mention with TFT compared to Autochess is actually such an insightful anecdote. And makes it easier to see/understand why Riot does things differently compared to a competitor and both are still fairly successful.

[@SleepyFen]

Personally, as someone who played Warcraft 3 DotA for years before moving to League in 2009, there's two reasons why I prefer League over DotA: Firstly, champion handling is a lot more responsive in LoL than DotA, which I personally prefer, and in DotA, it often times feels like you're playing items instead of heroes, with so many characters buying Blink Dagger, BKB, Scythe etc. to the point where their gameplay becomes so same-y.

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

I feel the same, honestly. I like Dota's Macro a LOT more but League's micro gameplay is just top notch, some characters are literally like you're playing a Fighting game due to how responsive they are (Riven, Fiora, Vayne, even Azir) and it's a huge part of what makes the game so enjoyable.

[@peterkirk8510]

@@Gojiradogzillagodzilla This is something I always find impossible to describe to dota players that either don't play or have hardly played league. Every champion is incredibly responsive, and purely the skill expression in the control of your character is leagues above the same for basically every hero in dota. Only thing comparable is maybe meepo (although this is a lot more about learning patterns and getting comfortable muscle memory with hotkeys) or invoker

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

@@peterkirk8510 The two main differences that cause that, in my opinion: 1- Dota has turn rate, meaning Drow Ranger will never kite enemies like Ashe cause she has to turn before she can attack, while Ashe just needs enough attack speed lol 2- Dota does not have a lot of skillshots. Most shit there is point and click so fights are decided by better macro, item builds and item usage. Rather than "I hit all my spells while dodging all of the enemy's so i won", in Dota2 its more of "I managed the wave better, denied minions while farming better, so now i have better items so just fistfight the opponent to death".

[@Jxd1219d]

i guess high skill expression means a lot of skill from both champions and items, which i think is a good thing cuz it makes u know you can always get way better even if you are at the top already. But sadly all the skill expression from items got removed with the mythic items removal, mythics had a lot of skill expression from items like prowlers claw, galeforce, old stridebreaker etc tho i agree mythics had some problems but i really hope theres a new plan abt items similar to mythics but with more items this time so theres actually good build diversity this time and every champ has a good mythic item to use. As a adc main idc if other classes can have items like prowlers claw that can be annoying sometimes cuz it brings a lot of skill expression to the game which is good if u ask me. I think theres way too little skill expression from items nowadays in s14.

[@jdwild0696]

I feel this is why deadlock doesnt feel good (for me)

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

Not to mention the insane snowballing problem. Not like league doesn't have the same problem though.

[@ANNO_UNDERCOVER]

I think its fair to say the game shouldn't be overly complex But when Garen, Annie, Ahri, Jax, Renekton... etc are viable and sometimes even P/B in high elo it's really time to question whether the skill expression even exists xd If champs like this exist in high elo it's because the counter play they should have doesn't exist

[@mihaa94sky]

Denying was the main reason I picked LoL over Dota 2 back in the day. Such an annoying feature that bothered me even as far as Dota Allstars.

[@Jxd1219d]

Its not motivating at all to grind the game and become really insane at it if it doesnt have a high mechanical skill ceiling which league doesnt rlly have rn which makes it harder for ppl to take it rlly serious and grind it, thats why league will pretty much only have casual players in a few years if it stays like this. The game is already struggling in China because of this, in China they love high mechanics from both champions and items which especially got removed with the mythic items removal.

[@clintongriffin2077]

Preaching accessibility again.

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

The thing about the "Deny" mechanic in Dota is that it ties perfectly with the "Aggro" mechanic, which lets both players manipulate the wave in this back and forth pulling to see which one can get the wave in a better spot, so that they can farm safely AND deny creeps or even mess up with the opponent's last hitting timers. League doesnt really have this aggro mechanic on the same level as Dota so i imagine people would hate it. Were it to be done like Dota, MAYBE people would enjoy messing up with the opponent's last hits, or playing mindgames to see who gets to last hit who? Who knows.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Wave clear champs would be instantly broken. Clear two waves at once.

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

@@Darkstormsun9865 How do you clear "two waves at once" when they take time to reach the lane, and the enemy can pull your wave under their tower to farm safely? If you stick around to farm "2 at once" you risk getting ganked so the safe play is to either thin it out from afar or let it crash and clear it quickly.

[@CaseyATong]

People not using items is not a reflection that they don’t want to is that they aren’t mindful to try to use items that have actives, when you’re talking about a form of skill expression, but I would agree people want skill expression in their character, not to prioritize in items. Skill expression through your character, in my opinion, is more fun than winning. It’s what makes the win feel worthwhile. Because it gives something to aim for when it comes to mastery. I agree like, making it so in Jungle doesn’t force people to like memorize timers and stuff, it’s a sort of like card counting type of skill that can give a somewhat unfair advantage. I don’t think the same of character skill expression, though. I think that’s a healthy level of mastery to aspire to.

[@HenaK9]

Everyone in the game should know jungle paths and timers. Having a guestimate of where enemy jung is right now is beyond important.

[@IC-23]

okay hear me out, straight up turn on friendly fire vs minions. Panth becomes the biggest lane bully by executing friendly minions making him one of the best early bulliea by making the enemy top laner wait 10 years to hit lv6

[@KigerrMobile]

@@IC-23 GP and Irelia as well

[@Saintzel]

I don’t see how Panth would be particularly strong with friendly fire vs minions. Irelia would go nuts though

[@IC-23]

@Saintzel being able to crit execute your own cannons at 20% will make it really hard for enemies to farm effectively at level 1. Since both players will deny xp it's safe to assume that in high level play both players will still be level 1 by wave 3.

[@Siegram999]

ok but can we nerf tank damage like idm that they are very tanky thats fine but bro why is my backline getting 1 shotted by tanks using basically point and clicks.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Because a tank that can't kill squishy is useless. CC is irrelevant when you cant kill the thing you are CCing. That would make all tanks instantly unplayable in every role except support and even then other classes of champions would be chosen over them since they will also lose more damage than other champions We already saw double adc lanes last year. Damage is one of the most valuable things to have in league.

[@grutznerkirito4859]

Imagine having 0 skill expression in the sht game. And talk about infinite skill expression being a problem. When skill expression doesn't make a difference in 80% of the lost games, something is terminaly wrong. That sht didn't happen in s6, s7, s8, s9 . Fkcn never. Maybe giving everyone 4 3,5k hp and 100+ resistances at minute 25 isn't the thing. And the dmg in the game pre durability patch gave skilled players the opportunity to 1v5 any perfectly played game?

[@pance2992]

I love August, but this time it feels like he took 8 minutes to say nothing. There was no relevant tie to League in this whole monologue, and he gave no reason as to why he's talking about this. It's cool to know that they have this approach, but why did he bring it up? Is there more context in a different video?

[@TheNBSPerry]

gunz the duel is a perfect example of infinite skill expression working

[@Siegram999]

it worked so well noone even knows what it is truly a success.

[@Lightmagician60]

they don't want players to do math? that explains why they keep buffing HP, Armor and MR. because eventually they can turn the question "how do you kill a tank?" into simply "you don't" no math required there... at that point just Remove AD and AP, make everyone a statstick... they are almost half why there already and even less math required then

[@chippomippo5138]

Jesus Christ. The game gets worse and worse with every year, and this dudes just sit there, sniffing their own farts. Nice team, riot games.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Damn no matter what riot does they always make wrong decisions that make me lose all my ranked games!

[@chippomippo5138]

​@@Darkstormsun9865 Dont play this game at all, really. They made one patch that was nice to play, when they increased TTK, and then kept on ruining it patch after patch cause zed mains started crying.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

@@chippomippo5138 damn bro your entire game play is dictated by one thing only. No wonder you are hopelessly miserable.

[@badysparta]

No need to be so diplomatic... 😅 Yes, Dota sucks.

[@blueKoniro]

it does not, it just different bro

[@julianhugen8760]

Sorry, dota is just bad because they don't update simple things. I was a Dota 1 fanatic and didn't like lol at all. After a while playing lol I tried out Dota 2 with some friends, and anyone of us liked, because it just feels like a clunky old game for no reason. Item system is a mess, the game don't run smoothly, and you feel that is simple outdated. If it was just for pure nostalgia I rather play Dota 1 instead, because at least will be a reason for the clunkyness of the game.

[@kf532]

Tbh outside of champs being smoother you could probably say this about most of league. I would say shitty client, weird/unintuitive minion aggro(sometimes big bugs), visual spell information not matching with the effects, ect. Can also make the game feel old like how ppl feel dota is clunky. At least the clunkiness is 90% for balance in dota I can't really say client bugging or minions doing some random action while already doing something a balance decision. Though big ups for league having higher dopamine on some champs.

[@julianhugen8760]

​@@kf532 I think you didn't understand my point. Dota 2 have not change almost nothing compare to Dota 1, and most things is not problem with bug and code, but simple optimization. Lol is always trying to optimize the game, like itens menus, map, runes, even playstyle. I like the dinamic of denny and your spells matter more, that Dota have. I don't have problem with that, but I don't think the game develop properly after 11 years.

[@kf532]

@@julianhugen8760 dota is always changing the map and adding stuff with similar impact to runes though(aghs, talent tree, facets). Only thing that isn't super streamlined is classes. But they have each character with their own specific "playstyle". Item menu hasn't really changed much though. The game tends to go very "horizontal" with its changes making extreme changes to make stuff fresh instead of optimizing the same exact map,objectives, ect which I can see how people might not like that.

[@julianhugen8760]

@@kf532 Yeah, I noticed that changes, but since I played Dota a lot in the past I felt a little desapointed when I get back and the game was not smooth as spected for a game of now a days, and wasn't just me, all my friends felt the same.

[@tipilot3791]

and yet unga bunga stat checking champions are allowed to have insane winrates for months on end.

[@Bismarck-S]

Mundo currently some of the highest winrates in the game in top lane AND jungle. That champion is unfairly busted, and even with warmogs nerf it’s insanely strong. Infinite hp and mana essentially in one item? What were they thinking? I play Gwen and even the I feel like Mundo is unfair sometimes, especially when I watch videos of people struggling against him

[@Darkstormsun9865]

​@@Bismarck-Syea for reason they still haven't nerded Mundo yet.

[@vortraz2054]

Concentrating your skill expression into champions is why league feels both so stale and unfair. Champions are so important all other changes are relatively low impact and the game is stale without a steady income of champions and they end up being overloaded nightmare fuel. Your only lever for making the game INTERESTING is champions but somehow your managing to alienate both groups of players. The simple and the galaxy brain players BOTH. That isnt good design. Wheras in Dota, you can pick a simple Hero, and still win with your micro skills Via stacking camps, managing creep aggro, there are infinitely more skills outside of DRAFT and champ mastery at play, than in League. So they dont have this dumbass rock paper scissors game where some champions are garunteed shafted just on draft because they cant do anything about an Akali, or a Ksante, a Pyke, a Malzahar. Your game is 50% Rng August. The Rng of, do these strangers who are my teammates, have a pick that can function in this draft? If no then your fucked. And Dota just doesnt have that problem because there is always a side channel you can play through to make up for your matchup there are IMPACTFUL skills outside of champion pick and basic macro

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Umm tf? League is not dictated by draft. Yes there are counters but that is also your own skill expression to win. This also puts more emphasis that league is a team game and you work together to win against the difference of advantages. To look at the bigger picture having a get out of jail free card that makes having a lead pointless. Would slow the game down tremendously and make laning phase not matter.

[@gamblingstation]

skill expression... more like mind f... loser q expression

[@jyles9722]

yet jax and malphite are still in the game

[@bellowheaty1228]

cool

[@theblackening76]

oh nah we got malphite complainers

[@jyles9722]

@@theblackening76 I think I’d rather play tic tac toe than Malphite

[@iiolpok2653]

league is a simpler game and having to think about stuff is going away with each patch, unfortunately. indicators for every minor stuff someone who bothered to learn would know, handholding to the extreme and so on. this is one of the things i hate the most about this game, though i love most of it

[@davidawakim5473]

what are you even talking about?

[@panagiotislepelis8177]

If that was true you would be at least gm. I bet you're not even diamond. Master is a joke to get to now but players with no knowledge talk about the game as if they know everything. Check yourself.

[@Maytiri]

About skill expresssion and calculus we've got skyyart optimizing everything by calculus and he's been able to predict so many metas and/or best way to play so many things thanks to maths. Really interesting that August mention that 🤔